Originally Posted by: 0311

Here are some of the primary reasons most trainees don't grow:

Good post I found a while back from Iron Addict.

1. You overtrain and under eat. These are listed as the main primary reason because they go hand in hand and BOTH must be balanced or you can forget growth. The most perfect training regimen will fail miserably if diet is not there to support it. And conversely, the most perfect diet will be wasted if the trainee is doing more workload than they can recover from-most do WAY too much!

2. The training workload is not varied. Doing the exact same lift the same way stops being productive for most trainees within 3-6 weeks. Once the body has adapted to the loading it must be changed if you are to continue to force the body to adapt.

3. Too much focus on isolation exercises, not enough compound work. You can do all the "small" lifts until you are blue in the face, but until you are moving big poundage's in the big lifts you will remain small. Which brings up point #4.

4. You MUST squat and deadlift if you are going to reach your bodies growth potential. Think it through. Doing squats or deads activates 70-85% of the bodies overall musculature in one move. Doing a set of curls maybe 3-5%. Which sends a big signal that the body better get better at synthesizing protein and better at handling the need to grow as a unit? You will NEVER reach your potential without doing the squats and deads.

5. You constantly fluctuate between lifts that have bad carry-over. Here is an example:

I have seen many times, and one I have done myself. The trainee burns out on benching and decides to do Hammer Strength Benches for a change. He makes the switch and is jazzed. His Hammer press is going up every week and he is stoked. After a time he has added 50 lbs to his Hammer bench and decides to go back and hit the bench, only to find it's up a whole 10 lbs!!!!!

That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with Hammer Benches. It just means that the lifts are dissimilar enough that an increase in one may not necessarily help increase the lift on another. Use of stabilizers and inter and intra-muscular coordination are two primary reasons, along with neural recruitment pattern gains that don't apply well to the other lift.

6. You don't know when to de-load/cruise , or take time off. NO ONES body takes a constant pounding of hard training without periods of active or full rest recovery. Until you learn how and when to don this your training will never be optimal

7. Your micro-nutrient support SUCKS! I can't count the number of guys I have seen trying to build great physiques taking a "one a day" vitamin and thinking they have it covered. If you want great things out of your body, you need to put great fuel in it.

8. You train with the intensity of a arthritic old lady. Nuff said.

9. You have no clearly defined goals. Most people just "lift to get bigger", and while this is a fine goal, not having and strength related goals will kill your progress in the long run. Your primary goal should be getting stronger on the big lifts on a CONSTANT basis. Setting short and long-term strength goals and achieving them is what equals a big strong trainee in the long run.

10. You are inconsistent. Getting excited about your training and killing yourself in the gym only to burn out and few weeks later and miss a bunch of sessions ends up being 1 step forward, 3/4 steps backward for many trainees. Getting and staying consistent and racking up sustainable gains over the long-term is what it's about.

Iron Addict

This post has been edited by darklight79: Nov 15 2006, 03:44 PM

have to print this out and stick it in my bedroom door....

in summary no pain no gain...

great post dude

Damn, these 3 are probably the ones I'm guilty of right now.

1. I think I'm not consuming enough, although I dont really count the calories. I eat 5 meals a day, a very common diet is as follows:

mea1 1 - big ass breakfast : 1.5scoop of whey + 1pack marigold milk (~45g protein) + 2 whole eggs + half can baked beans (on occasion I sub the eggs and beans with peanut butter sandwich)

mea1 2 - lunch: normal but I always try to include generous portions of chicken and veggies (I stay away from empty foods like wanton noodle, etc).

meal 3 - tea time : 1 pack marigold milk (10g protein) + peanut butter sandwhich/2 hardboiled eggs.

meal 4 - dinner : normal, with lots of meat and veggies

meal 5 - pre-bed : 1.5scoop of why + 1 pack of marigold milk + 2 flax seed oil. (on occasion they'll be some cottage cheese thrown in)

- I really gotta add to this, i'm thinking of oatmeals during tea time. Any feedback on this will be appreciated...

6. Heh I've never really taken anytime off in the past year unless I'm sick. 3 days a week with rest days in between. What's the frequency on how long before we take time off and how long?

7. uhh... about the only supplements I take are flax seed oils and the occasional vit. c. Anymore details on this?

darun, your diet seems pretty good. I put up a sample of mine, and when to utilize extra vitamins.

http://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopi...dpost&p=9163199

Post #28

oh thanks. What about the resting part? I've never really took anytime off, heh I'm afraid of my belly growing the moment I stop for even a week since I'd still be following the same diet. Do you?

The main thing is to know when to take complete time off or to deload. I'm still trying to figure than out myself, but you can check out this article by a friend of mine who's training me online :-

Originally by Kethnaab of BB.com

Between 5x5, Westside, Smolov, and now DC, the concept of cruising/deloading is becoming quite "popular" among some of the more advanced trainees, and as a result, tons of questions are popping into my inbox...again.

Hopefully this will explain the need for the periodic deload/cruise for many advanced trainees, and it can even be a good intro for someone who is at the intermediate stage and can no longer simply pile weight on, workout after workout.

It all hinges around what is known as "dual factor" training theory.

We have to define a few terms first as they relate specifically to this subject.

Fitness - the resultant physical ability of the body to adapt and respond positively to external stress

Fatigue - The decreased capacity or complete inability of an individual or a bodypart to function normally because of excessive stimulation or prolonged exertion - note fatigue can be very temporary as a result of acute stimulii (i.e. biceps get fatigued from a set of curls) or fatigue can be sytemic and cumulative (i.e. the body and its systems are fatigued from hard training over a period of weeks/months)

Performance - the degree of excellence resulting from physical activity, i.e. your ability to bench/squat/dead/chin/row, etc (remember, we're talking SPECIFIC to weight training here) or, for bodybuilders, the body's ability to demonstrate muscularity

Overtraining - The act of training too often/too heavy/too long, which causes the body's recuperative systems to become overwhelmed so that you can no longer recover from training. Performance is DRASTICALLY reduced, as a result, as the body cannot combat the excessive and chronic fatigue.

Overreaching - the planned process of inducing mild systemic overtraining followed by a planned period of systemic fatigue reduction, with the purpose of dramatically increasing performance

Now then, onward and forward...

Dual factor theory, simply put, involves planning your workouts with the knowledge that fatigue and fitness both affect performance. As you train, you build up your fitness level. Imagine if you were Wolverine...you could train several times a day, everyday, and get stronger and faster constantly. Your fitness level increases, and for some time, your performance level increases as well. You are more energetic, you don't get sore as often, you become stronger/leaner/faster/more muscular, etc. Life is good!

However, we AREN'T like Wolverine, and fatigue reduces our ability to train at peak performance. As a result, we train for a period of perhaps 1-2 hours, then we take a day (or more) to rest before training again. The purpose of the break is to reduce fatigue to a level which allows us to train again at (or near) peak performance (be it the ability to bench 5 more lbs or the resultant ability to demonstrate muscularity)

Over the course of weeks (and possibly, for beginners/intermediates/genetic misfits [Hola, I'm talking to you here!] months) your training results in an increase in fitness, but it also results in the systemic accumulation of fatigue. Anyone with experience who has trained for a period of time and then begins sufferieng from the symptoms of "overtraining" can attest to this. After 10 weeks of hard, intense, consistent training, most people begin to suffer the classic symptoms of overtraining, i.e. loss of appetite, weakness, achy joints, extreme fatigue, problem sleeping, etc.

You are overtraining. Sounds pretty bad, doesn't it? Except, overtraining is a BEAUTIFUL thing...why?

An easy correlation can be made to a guy who runs

if dude runs 5 days per week, 10 miles per day for several weeks, he is going to become extremely fit, but he will get tired due to what we call overtraining. For awhile, he was able to train this way and continue to get faster (increase in fitness accompanied by an increase in performance). However, after several weeks of this, he simply cannot recover from his running, and he gets slower (fitness has increased, but has been overwhelmed by fatigue, resulting in REDUCED performance).

Now, imagine if, after 4-6 weeks of doing 50 miles per week running, he cut back to 3 runs per week at 5 miles per day. Essentially, he just went from 50 miles weekly to 15 miles weekly.

He's still running, and one could argue that, because he's running only 5 miles every other day during the week, he's probably running a lot faster than he was if he was still doing 10 miles. He lowered his overall volume and workload (miles ran) and frequency (days running per week) but upped the intensity (his running speed during the 5 mile is faster than his running speed during the 10 mile)

Because he spent weeks accumulating tons of fitness from his hard workouts, these 15-mile weeks where he runs 3x per week are like a walk (or cruise!) in the park for him. His fitness level was accustomed to handling 50 miles per week, but now he's only running 15 miles per week.

As a result, the fatigue that also accumulated during those 6 or so weeks of 50-mile running is now able to dissipate, even though he's still running each week. He cut back on volume and frequency, and now he sees increases in his athletic performance as fatigue dissipates and his fitness is allowed to "show through"

You can be in great shape, but if you're flippin' tired, you can't perform that well. Unfortunately, it takes ALOT OF HARD WORK to get in great shape, and that causes fatigue to accumulate.

Check the stupid picture/graph I drew. It represents "general fitness level" with a blue line and "general fatigue level" with a red line, with "performance" being the green arrow drawn between the difference. As you exercise, your general fitness level increases, as does your fatigue accumulation. Unless you are a Mentzer-drone, you train more often than 2 or 3 times per month. As a result, fatigue WILL accumulate (and this is a GOOD thing!)

The harder you work, the more your fitness goes up, but the more fatigue that accumulates (Loading/accumulation phase). How you perform is not based SOLELY on your fitness level, but it is based on a (very non-mathematical, but rather theoretical) equation that basically states:

"Performance = Fitness - Fatigue"

Put simply, your performance will be dictated by your level of physical fitness, coupled with how tired you are.

Your FITNESS might dictate that you can PERFORM a bench of 300 lbs, but because you're FATIGUED (tired), you can only PERFORM a bench of 250

Eventually, you get to the point where you are thoroughly busting your ass and you are starting to see that fatigue overtakes you (overreaching/overtraining phase). So at this point, fatigue has "won" (albeit temporarily) so many trainers will just quit for awhile (a week, sometimes weeks, sometimes several months). This is the ultimate in "missed opportunities"

The thinking man's trainer decides to take advantage of this by PLANNING to do this, using "Dual Factor theory". He increases his fitness levels using increasing levels of volume and/or weight and/or frequency and once he reads that fatigue has overtaken his body's recovery ability, he drastically cuts back on his frequency and/or volume and/or intensity. This allows for an active rest, so fatigue dissipates. however, he is STILL TRAINING, and his fitness levels continue to climb (or at least stay the same) while he 'rests'.

After a period of time...perhaps a "cruise" of 1 or 2 weeks, or perhaps an "active deload" of 3 weeks, or a "strategic deconditioning" period of 10 days, you are still "in shape" because you've been training, but you are well-rested, and you are ready to attack the weights again.

Methods of deload


HST is typically associated with what is known as "strategic deconditioning". The idea is that you don't need progressive resistance from cycle to cycle, only workout to workout. After 6-8 weeks of training under "classic HST", you take a week (or two) COMPLETELY off. As a result, your fitness level decreases (as does your performance), and fatigue is completely dissipated. The idea is that despite losing a good deal of strength and probably some muscle, the net gain from cycle to cycle will be in the positive.

The classic 5x5 using dual factor involves starting off with weights significantly below your present level of performance. After 3-5 weeks of consistent training and adding weight to the bar, you will begin hitting PRs. You will have accumulated a substantial amount of fitness as well as fatigue due to the consistent increase in volume and ESPECIALLY workload, as well as intensity. Then you use this increased fitness to increase performance by decreasing frequency and DRASTICALLY reducing volume.

Cruising, DC-style, and most of the deloads you will find in Westside and other programs is simply active rest in the weight room. Tons of different ways to do it...drop from 4 days per week to 2 days...lose all ME and DE work...do RE work with only 80%...lose ALL RE work, take 80% of your 10-RM and do 8 reps with it, drop all intensity techniques (i.e. no rest/pause or widowmakers), etc.

How you decide to "deload" is up to you, as it is a highly personal thing.

On a note, I've been conversing with Madcow via pm's. He advised against me starting off on dual factor, he gave me a few ideas about switching things up and deloading.

I'm currently trying out a new rep/set scheme of 3 x 3, but still based on the 5 x 5 principle of a whole body workout and hitting each bodypart frequently.

Figured I might aswell tack this, lots of useful info.

Oh... so that's where it went. Heh.... for a while i panicked cos all the effort of typing might have been gone to waste.

Hey just a noob question here but pls tell me...

does dead lift same as those weight lifter in olympic sports?

will it make u become shorter?sorry...but seriously...mostly weightlifter are short

Yes its similar movement to some of the olympic lifts. No it wont make you short. If you've already stopped growing, you wont become shorter because of lifting. If you're still growing, the chances of lifting stunting your growth is lower than playing soccer or any contact sport.

This post has been edited by darun: Nov 16 2006, 08:41 AM

Arnold Schwarzenegger isn't short.

Cause he ate all of colombu's food!!!

Darun, i will need a few details from you, like how long have you been on the SF 5 x 5, are you feeling burned out or are you still progressing, etc? Like i said, deloading may prove to have more benefits than just taking a week off completely. I've customized my 5 x 5 program, made quite a few changes like adding in ME and RE days, but still sticking to Madcow's principles of full body workouts and hitting each bodypart twice a week. If anyone is interested, i'll post it.

I'm at week 8, my bench is stagnating but my chest is my weakest part so far (i should probably reset back a couple weeks). Not really feeling burnt out, but definitely not as energetic as before, could be the all the new PRs post week 4. My squats and deads are still progressing but the new PR in these past week was not easy. My rows, surprisingly has no problems at all.

Ok, the thing is, for most trainees, the bench press is usually the first to fail because msot trainees are more advanced in it than they think. How many of us when we first started bodybuilding always paid top priority to the bench press? Heh, i know i did, it was like synonymous with everythign that is bodybuilding. So hence, the reason it usually stagnates first. Sicne you're still progressing on everythign else, albeit a bit more difficult to add weight progressively, i don't think you're having a burnout.

I cut a few clips from the above articles i posted which may or may not address your issue.

Bear in mind i'm not suggesting you start the dual factor program as even Madcow dissuaded me from starting it. I'm suggesting you apply some dual factor principles to your 5 x 5. Typing more, hold on.

This post has been edited by darklight79: Nov 16 2006, 11:39 AM

This is what Madcow replied to me in a pm when i told him i might consider starting the dual factor as my bench, MP, deadlifts were starting to stagnate as you know when i trained with you at CEleb Fitness that one time:-

Keep in mind that you don't just reset the stock 5x5 program. Do some different things along the same lines before moving to that sort of thing. Maybe try a 10 rep variation if you are into that. Modify the template, do whatever. Point being, before you start opting for 1 increment of progress every 4-8 weeks, make sure you really need that and the rep range/template you have been running simply isn't very stale

It seems the dual factor, however effective it may be, will have me progressing very slowly and i think i've still got more potential to progress faster than the rate the dual factor program might give me. He also gave me this link:-

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost...7&postcount=958

So, after that said and done, I've began to customize my program, i handed in the rough template to Madcow and Kethnaab (another very knowledgeable individual whom Madcow recognizes) and i got their approval. Here is a sample of Day 1 and Day 3.

Day 1 (ME Day) : Bench press 3 x 3
Squats 3 x 3
Weighted hammer chins 3 x 3
Adding in sit ups and hyperextensions here
*All straight sets

Day 3 (RE Day) : Bench press 3 x 10
Pendlay rows 3 x 10
Squats 3 x 10
Some direct arm work
* tentatively straight sets here most likely
**thinking of adding in GHRs here

I still haven't decided on Day 2 but I'm dropping deadlifts from them a while, and doing assistance exercises like SLDL's and GHR's. Kethnaab suggested a mixture of ME and RE sets for MPs and SLDL's, where i ramp to a top set of 3-5 and then a down set of 8-10.

Keep in mind this program is specifically tailored for MY needs because i need to bring up my vertical pulling strengths, such as hammer chins and pull ups, hence the ME rep/set scheme for hammer chins.

darun.. what u can actually do is quite simple.. just reset ur bench like 2 weeks back, and go from tehre again.. and if ur other lifts are advancing.. y kacau it? ride those PRs as long as u can.. and i've also identified what most ppl facee when stagnating on the bench.. it's actually in madcows site.. he DID say that bench will be the first thing that stagnates.. y? becuz according to the excel template, ur weekly increment is very minimal.. like 1kg per week.. but with our commercial gyms around here.. the minimal increase per week is 2.5kg(both sides) which is alot!! so what i did is i went and bought some 0.5kg plates and my bench was able to continue progressing!

and u're in your 8th week of the 5x5.. where u'll defenitely feel taxed.. deadlifting continuously for 8 weeks heavy of cuz will burn u out.. maybe u could take deads out this week and continue the next? or u could end it at week 10 and deload for a week and start another cycle?

it's all about planning..

Thanks for the link, good reading. I'll probably try resetting my bench first as carlsuen suggested before changing anything drastic. Thanks again guys for the input.

I have got to learn how to do power shrugs from you one day. I can't seem to get the technique right, but then i've only tried them once.

i am currently 15 going to 16....can i hv some advice here...should i lift up some weights???i want to build a body but im afraid that it would affect my growth....
any suggestion here???pls....

Well lifting weights won't make you short(er) if thats what you're worried about.

it dosent affect your growth. just go ahead and lift, like malaysianpotato said

oh i see... thank you~~~

can u guys kindly tell me what is the age for us to stop growing tall>?

gurls until 18 yrs old boys until 21 yrs old

ic..tat means i still hv a chance to become taller lar...

anyway...

does doing deadlift will stop ur growth???

obviously the answer same as above quote unless u consider Dl is some sort of cardio......


Chow.

dont understand...

anyway...does dead lift really helps u a lot?

yeap
its basically a compound exercise which uses a large percentage of ur muscles
like squats, its just one of those heavy a** lifts which promote a lot of muscular growth

will it stop my growing tall?

nope
deadlifts, squats or whatever wont affect your growth
search around
there were a few threads on this topic

edit:-
height wise, if it doesnt promote muscular growth, y on earth am i doing them

This post has been edited by nezzy: Nov 23 2006, 05:51 PM

Can i ask you why this question is being posted here when this thread is supposed to be related to growth in terms of hypertrophy, not growth in terms of height?

NO, bodybuilding Diet actually help u grow taller.
It only make u short if u hurt ur spine during deadlift. Thats it !!

Bear in mind, we need a lot of protein to grow in muscles

Darklight79, good thread. Though I m not a bodybuilder, but I will use this knowledge from here wisely

This post has been edited by Irresistible: Apr 23 2007, 11:54 AM

i think the purpose of this thread is to discuss muscular mass growth, and not in terms of height. body-building however, stuns growth in terms of height, so if u wanna grow taller, dont do it..

some athletes put strap-on weights to their ankles or arms when they train as well. and that is bad for height growth as well.

Please prove this nonsense of weightlifting stunting height crap.

Nov 23 2006, 01:01 PM

Ehh...sorry lar..dam long time ago, that time i was like a super noob lar..

hey darklight
im referring to ur post on deloading

i've worked out for some time (3-5 weeks) and accordingly, my performance increased significantly due to god-blessed discipline on diet and consistency

the thing is, as i improve my resistance and sets (i try not to add more workouts b4 end of 6 weeks cuz i want to see how far i can go with the curent workout), im beginning to feel sengal2 all over my body
like orang tua la
the worst part is my the otot around my pelvis...walking alone takes toll on me per se
however, i trained that part rather lightly where the only lower body exercise i did were

i) cross training machine - 20 mins
ii) jog (with 8-10 times intervals) - 20min
iii) cycling - 10min
iv) leg press - 8-12 reps maxmum capability of 2-3 sets

outside gym, i swim

is it a good thing? i mean the upper body had been blasted with loads of weights (with some instructions from a certified master trainer of course) but the muscle stretch aint that bad

is it time to deload? or?
i understand the concept of cruising and deload which is better than resting (although medically resting is the best alternative)
what do u think?

i mean only go to gym for 4 times a week
2 - workout
2 - cardio

note: and yeah, sakit mata la all this questions on stunting growth on height...damn it...

---

Added on April 28, 2007, 12:26 pmbeen following darklight's threads for quite some time
especially after i lost weight and beginning to think to look slim is better
haha
but im no bodybuilder
i just want to look and feel good with my body

at my current height 6f 1in and weight 72kg, to look good is the best thing for me

btw, ur sig is really motivational la darklight
cuz i have this friend whose always helped me with training
but he's always boasting on his good bod
but he owed it to the drugs he took for so long to perform hammer bench and deadlift at 300-400 lbs...1 pill is around 4 bucks and he has to take 2 to lift all those...without it, he can only perform up to 100-150lbs

i'd rather eat abnormally and work everything out rather than take drugs and feel the side effects later


This post has been edited by gtoforce: Apr 28 2007, 12:26 PM

darklight79, I 've appreciated ur posted. U sound professional to me. NIce and thank you upon the information that u've given.

yeah, my brother is not growing as much as I want hope it grow longer

You're welcome. It's not my article though. I just pick the good ones and put them here.

Too bad for you dude

this is a good article which i check from time to time...
yup, i am fine

A very useful and helpful thread indeed.

Just one question - to all the seasoned pros in this fitness forum, is there any local websites that sells gym equipment? (like maxtrition.com which sells supplements)

Tried searching through the thread but can't seem to find anyone that mentioned this.

Would appreciate you guys out there can enlighten me on this.

Just wondering whether i can gain mass and at the same time lose fat..
i've searched many articles...some says that its impossible while some says that it can be done...hmm...confused....can anyone give some opinion?

is mee more fattening than rice?

my muscles are growin slowly....but i wud like to have a more visible tonned body with nice cutting....hw can i get those cuts? my muscles jst look bulky..dun like it... is it becuz of da diet? less carbo?

good posting here.. i agree wit u bro... all above.. thats y i didnt grow up.. just get fit only... but not too fit.. i'll upload my picture later...

i agree with no 1,2,4,9,10. this all the most important. thanks for da advice

can i substitute my tea time break with sneakers?i used to eat pau ayam@roti boom during tea time.ok or not?

wow.. it's amazing that until now ppl still think that lifting weights can stunt ur growth or make you short!

anyway, n00b here, first post in this section
what do you guys think about the body types that we all have?
Ectomorph, Endomorph and Mesomorph?
I think by knowing what type you are you can train accordingly..although i'm not sure that if you're say an endomorph ( easy to build muscle,stocky, muscles not defined ).. is it possible to become toned and ripped?
Same goes on whether ectomorphs ( tall skinny, difficult to put on mass ) can achieve size and mass?
I'm aware that one can be a combo of either of the body types..
Any opinions?

I used to be a scrawny guy. After form 5, I was 1.75 metres tall but weighed only 57kgs. 3 years later, I picked up my first set of weights. It was just a pair of 5 kgs plates attached to a bar, and I struggled like hell with it.

The best mistake I made was not to read any muscle mag and stick with fixed routines like those "10 reps x 4 sets" stuff. I was lifting that bar every single moment of free time I had. I was doing curls, triceps extensions, overhead presses.. any motion that felt natural, that didn't put my joints in an awkward position. I incorporated pressing routines into my squats as a compound movement out of intuition and the urge to experiment.

In three months, I gained 5 kgs of lean muscle mass and was ripped like hell. My college mate couldn't believe what he was seeing when I took my shirt off. In the next 3 months, I gained another 3 kgs.

This was achieved without any supplements, without any fixed regiments. I just continued increasing the weights on the bar, and bought dumbbells so that I can do a larger variety of stuff. But basically, all I did was dinosaur training.

I didn't bother counting the reps.. I just continued doing it on and on till I can't do it anymore. I didn't bother counting the sets. I did lifting anytime I had some free time on my hands.

When I started working back in 2000, I joined Fitness Network in Centrepoint Bandar Utama and continued my dinosaur training style.. intuitively doing drop sets to keep the intensity up. I'll be doing high-volume high-intensity stuff, moving from one set to another with less than 1 minute's rest in between. In some cases, like supersetting between biceps curls and triceps pressdowns, I do them back to back to failure with no rest in between, while dropping weights (dropped sets) for every subsequent sets.

I got plenty of results pretty fast. From 65kgs, I went up to 72kgs in just a year. Most other people who have been swinging those bars in the gym for 2 or 3 years didn't even get this sort of result mainly because they didn't incorporate the necessary intensity, and limited themselves with those "10 reps x 4 sets" nonsense.

What I learned down the years is that in order to gain power, strength and speed, we have to put our body in the longest duration of tension possible. Whether you're doing a static isometric routine, or doing repeated isotonic routines back to back, it doesn't matter. It is far better for gaining strength and increase the efficiency of your muscles (innervation efficiency) if we use plenty of compound movements, and force the body to undergo an extended period of elevated muscular tension.

If we're lifting weights right, we should be sweating, huffing and puffing as if we just ran 10km! Whey protein and creatine supplements go a long way towards helping the beginner, and is really good for helping the intermediate ones break past the plateaus.. especially creatine.

Eat smart, supplement smart, and do plenty of compound movements as if we're cavemen crossing a terrain on a mammoth hunt. Do it old-school, do it rigorously, and workout like an animal whose body operate as a single unit. That will give you plenty of functional strength and not just "show muscles". Incorporate lots of chinning, pushups and stretching if possible, being functionally athletic is far better in terms of health and everyday life than having a bulky body that looks clumsy and, well, bulky.

Dude, what about overtraining? You sound like you are doing it everyday and you make it like you do every set trained to failure. I had previously did every set to failure but its not good as it kills my recovery time.

what he does works for ectomorph newbies. Give it another 3 months and it won't work anymore. It doesn't work forever, nothing does.

Hmm yeah.. i can't see myself training without a proper regiment and rest..
but i believe that you need to be in your discomfort zone while working out to get good results.like really push it!
I usually do full body workouts 3 times a week + explosive + funtional; cause i play footyball regularly so need the sports kind of weight training..nothing to bulk me up

That's mostly correct but not quite. It works perfectly for ectomorphs. In fact, I suspect that these high-tension routines contribute towards satellite cell differentiation and not just hypertrophy of the myosin sheath around the actin fibers (i.e. the usual method of muscle volume increase).

Not that it didn't work after 3 months, mind you. The gains slowed down after 1 year.

However, I'm a hard-gainer. I have tried all that stuff from low-volume HIT to rest-pause to regular muscle-mag recommendations of 10 rep x 4 sets. No luck. The results don't stay for long, especially not those 10 reps x 4 sets crap. What I "gained" with those low-intensity stuff is just a "pump" that I carry on to the next workout. hence it's a false gain.

Furthermore, it was a priority for me to maintain my ability to do splits and all sorts of kicks. My cardio consisted of plenty of bagwork and compound stuff like clean & press, and I incorporated a lot of stretching.. even weighted stretches. That was due to me doing martial arts.

High-volume high-intensity training is the only stuff that has worked for me down the years. From times when I've gotten out of shape and needed to get back in shape 2 months before a company trip, or times when I needed to whip up my endurance for a half-marathon the following month, high-intensity high-volume training has worked wonders.

The lean mass that I've gained isn't the "false gain" from water retention that most supplements give. I can stop working out for a few months (like what's been happening lately ever since I started dating full-time) and gain some fat here and there, but my lean mass doesn't go away (unlike those false gains from L-arginine and creatine, which is mainly water retention). Also, I can just go back into the gym anytime and return to my old poundages within a week or two.

As for overtraining, I admit that it has the possibility to dampen recovery rates, but again this is a conventional wisdom of most muscle mags. Recovery will still be okay if your nutrition and diet is kept in check. If you juice up on whey protein at least 3 to 4 times a day (in doses smaller than the recommended serving), you'll be surprised at how high your energy levels are throughout the day and how fast your recovery rates are. The other stuff is creatine - it really really helps with recovery because it somehow minimizes lactic acid damage during workout in the first place.

Check out stuff from Pavel Tsatsouline and Frederick Hatfield for proper scientific approach towards resistance training. Also check out this PDF over here: http://www.asep.org/files/OttoV4.pdf

The most important thing is that we'll have to workout with plenty of intensity and keep raising the bar for ourselves in order to reach further.

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Added on January 14, 2008, 11:20 pmOh yeah, full body workouts are great!! Each of my gym session consist of compound workout for the entire body.. I don't practice those "arms day", "chest day", "legs day" stuff. It works for some people but it doesn't work for me. Also, compound movement workouts have been the best method for me to increase the power behind my punches and kicks, and they help me maintain my overall flexibility. Explosive compound movements like squats with dumbbell raises, or barbell clean-and-press, etc. are excellent as fast-working cardio exercises too. They seem to work far, far better than jogging or pedaling on the stationary bike.

This post has been edited by jswong: Jan 14 2008, 11:20 PM

Thanks dude, I think it really will help me a lot...

Fascinating stuff, thanks for the info guys. Not really into body building at the moment as I'm working on losing weight, but am doing weights to build muscle mass and this thread has given me some invaluable insight.

I have been steadily eating more rice and more meat nowadays. I have read that you can eat so much protein but without the carbs its all down to waste. Anyway, I will continue increasing my daily intake as long as my tummy remains the same size. I don't give a damn now about reducing my tummy, muscle growth optimization is the key. I am puzzled on how I can lift 3x heavier than when I first started out but physically I don't see my muscle growing shit.

nono, have you notice that those lion dance pp are all short, its coz they have to take all the drum... heavy drum each time they wana perform.... trust me, built ur body when you are 20... after full development..

Darky,

I've a few questions, hope you can find the time to answer them. Some of the questions may seem a little naive but there is just too much information on the net. I'm not looking to get bulked like yourself but would like to put on some muscle mass. At the moment, i've only managed to trim myself down but have not put on that much muscle. Anyway, here goes;

a) How does one increase the thickness of their arms? I understand that the triceps play a large part in this albeit the belief of many that focusing on biceps is the way to go. Is there a specific exercise or is it just a matter of hitting them hard?

b) I'm not sure if I provided you with sufficient information in terms of what I want to achieve, but what kind of routine would you recommend to someone like me. If you need more information, please tell me what more you need to know.

c) I've seen people with different routines. Some start of with a warmup set before increasing their weights as they move along sets. They then end it by taking the weight down a notch (warm down set???) I dunno. As I am looking to put on some muscle mass (if this term even makes sense at all), what kind of routine should I be looking at?

d) As I am not looking to get to large, how many sets and reps would you suggest I do for each muscle group? Also, how many different types of routines for each group, per session?

Hope my questions make sense, and I am looking forward to your reply. If you need me to provide you with more detail, please do ask.

I just read your other thread. Ah well, do let me know if anything I asked isn't covered there. From what I understand from the other thread, one needs to go for intensity if one wishes to increase his muscle mass. What will one achieve from doing more sets, with more reps (lower weight)?

Cheers.

This post has been edited by Duke Red: Feb 14 2008, 05:23 PM

I wan to gain weight. Just that i don't feel like eating, sometime even forget. Eating can be a chore.
And if i eat 5 times a day, dunno if i can afford that much chicken breast.

Just keep some whey protein in shaker bottles in your car, or in your knapsack. Back when I wanted to pile on more mass, instead of eating all round the clock, I just drink whey protein during tea time instead of taking in empty calories like roti canai and teh tarik.

In addition to the usual 3 meals a day (which wasn't always regular back then, while I was a project engineer), I had one protein shake before workout, and one after workout.. one protein shake during tea time (around 3 to 4 pm, between lunch and gym time) and one more at night, around 1 hour before bedtime.

Whacking protein shakes all round the clock like that had its benefits - I found it easier to pack on mass. But it has disadvantages too - my stomach got a bit gassy at times, and my stool is always loose because of the liquid diet. I was using Myoplex, and that stuff is a little denser compared to the regular protein shakes, so it feels quite filling.

Muscle builds from food. If you can't fuel your muscles with regular and the right amount of food, they just can't grow.

a) A matter of hitting them hard, with a mixture of low rep high poundage and relatively low poundage high rep sets to hit all muscle fiber types. Hit them hard, get in proper nutrition, rest and watch them grow. And yes, triceps form a large part of the upper arms but it's not the full equation. You need overall muscle mass to have big arms. You've not seen 17 inch arms on a 60kg trainee correct?

b) How long have you been training? What're your foundations in your lifts? What body type are you and how old?

c) I warm up with 60% of what i'm aiming to lift, then hit a bodypart with a mixture of different rep ranges, like explained in a). Then i end it with a burn set (high rep/low poundage but not baby weights, something i can lift with 12-15 reps.

d) It is not easy to get large, period. I hear a lot of trainees saying they don't want to get too huge but they're puny lil' sticks in real life. It takes tremendous amounts of dedication and effort to achieve some level of decent size and making sure all factors in and out of the gym are optimal. So no worries, just hit it hard in the gym. Imo, after years of experimenting, volume is the way to go if one already has decent foundations in strength levels. I hit each bodypart once every 6 days with 3-4 different exercises.

Intensity can be upped by utilizing intensity extending techniques such as drop sets, forced reps, negatives, etc. Again, volume is the key word here. Taking less rest between sets is also another way to increase intensity as you do more work over a shorter period of time. When one says more reps, more sets and lower weight, i say good, but it depends on what percentage of 1RM are those poundages utilized. Too low and they're a waste of time. Reps from 1-20 stimulate hypertrophy. There're so many exceptions to these rules, they're never set in stone. Doing 20 reps every set is obviously a waste of time, doing 1 rep every set is also a waste of time. I keep my reps between 8-15.

I used to think this kind of post exist in ProBuffedBodies forum and not LYN forum (Sorry guys, I'm still new to this forum thing)

I'm a 25-year-old endomorph (or endo-mesomorph hopefully) and have been training for almost 6 years, with planned training and supplements for the past 2 years.

I used to be like jswong, training via his "hardcore" method and manage to lose around 7 to 8kg. This continued for 4 years with little improvement in weight and muscle mass. Back then, "the more pain the more growth of muscle i will achieve" backboning "no pain no gain" was my motto - hit the heaviest weight in the gym with every machine. LOL. It was fun when it lasted.

It wasn't until 2 years ago when i was preparing for a climb that my friend thought me the planned way of training i.e. 3 to 4 sets of 10 to 12 reps with specific muscle groups a day, that i continue to progress. Standing at 5"7' and weighing 67kg now, i'm quite satisfied with my progress i'm making. imagine buying a formal coat size L although my torso could fit a size M just because my arms cant fit!! LOL. sweet.

My theory behind all of this comes back to principle 1: overtrain and undereat. that's for me anyway. instead of doing a full body workout and only targetting at specific muscle group, i reduce the need for nutrients, specifically energy and protien, needed for the day but still sufficient to supply the targetted muscle - no money ma . whereas in jswong's case, he must have enough intake to meet the request for his body. good for him

To me, taking protien shakes act as an immediate / short term supply for building / boosting muscles. Usually taken before and after workouts. I still go for natural protein source like chicken, egg whites and fish for long term building. This is my idea for building muscles, please correct me if i'm wrong.

Here's my 2-cents about training for teenagers:
Unless u damage the growth plates, there's no reason to stop growing. Bones, like muscles, if properly stimulated, can help strengthen and might even promote lengthening, or become taller in a better sense. If u are worried that doing workouts that might "compress" ur growth plates in ur bone such as squats for example, do it in a stepwise manner instead of straightaway hitting the heavy weights. I strongly suggest that these teenagers, due to the lack of experience, get assistant from trainers or those who are more experience in this. Just don't bug ur seniors too much. I'm sure most of the seniors are willing to drop a hint or two, though they luk extremely like battling a tiger fierce during workouts. "seniors" right?

To darklight,
When u mentioned deadlifts and squats to achieve maximal potential, were u refering to free weights only? I have some problem with my left knee and thus i usually do them with machines. Do the principle still apply? Also, i'm looking forward to become a bodytoner and not a bodybuilder, do i still need to hit the legs hard? My current workout involves each muscle group twice a week except for legs which is only once a week.

Is it advicable to do 2 drop sets for biceps a week? At my current pace, i do not feel pain or fatigue after workouts, just that i can't increase the weights i'm lifting.

Do you have any advice on amount of water to be taken while on high protein diet? Or a guide? I'm worried that i might damage my kidneys due products of protein breakdown.


Anyway, thanks for the Iron Addict article

last month,i continue again my protein shakes..and then....i got diarrhea...cirit birit..for 5 days....aiyark...Thanks God..now,allrite..i thought i gonna be in a hospital...

Hmm.. Im a dude, 16, is 171cm, 48 kg, and eat a lot (lol) ... But i dont gain weight.. ;(

And i dance too.. (shuffle) xD

Is it that i have a high metabolisme?

Any recommendations! ?

This post has been edited by Chyan: Apr 12 2008, 09:59 PM

you have to pump in some huge calories into your body coz your body wont store much fat when you constantly pump it out by sweating a lot

darklight, it's been a nice sharing here, thanks

I've a question here, I believe I'm an ectomorph (60kg at 1.8m).

Started seriously measuring my calorie & protein intake since April & would say have seen some progress since then (from 58.5kg).
However, I find it hard to get enough protein from my food (try not to take whey cause it's not whole food and it's rather expensive) cause I read somewhere saying it's best to get a gram of protein for every pound I weigh.

Also, my condo gym does not have bench press or dead lift equipments, only those machines with exercises like chest press, incline press, squat press, overhead press.....errr don't know what else. Question is, can this be as effective dead lifts or bench press?

Hi Dark,

nice article here!!

I have some questions:



When you mean vary the training, what does it actually means? Changing the training style? What if I change the weight? Is that applicable for this?



I am taking some OTC multi-vitamin, taking 2 pills a day. The recommended was 1 a day. Any specific benchmark of vitamins or minerals needed?

Sorry for the noob questions.
Thanks

can tell me for men stop growing at what age ??

tough question to answer. Some say 21yo some 26yo. Different people stop growing at different age.

thats so true TS.. good post! ive a meal plan that any of u guys can follow if u wanna gain mass... http://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopic=739437&hl=

until now i dont know why my growing stop
good in all food, diet, nutrient, excercise

maybe sexual thing make me stop growing

drinking that high protein drinks,like that mass gainer product that are sold at pharmacys,is that recommended option for instant mass gaining?

good list sums it up for anyone trying to gain strength and mass at the same time
7. Your micro-nutrient support SUCKS!
thats a first..I mean micro-nutrients are beneficial (eye sight,brain and etc) i love them(but i dont support them i just eat em )..using them as a weight gainer? "eat micronutrients become --> " WHAT?! do they even know what it is? ? Has nothing to do with weight gain AT ALL..You have met some pretty wierd folks my friend.

This post has been edited by kikikilly: Aug 8 2008, 04:00 AM

No lah. It's not as a weight gainer. You're not reading properly.
The micronutrients is there to support & promote growth. Vitamins, minerals and other micronutrients are involved in many bodily functions, metabolisms, energy utilisation and immune system.
If tak cukup micronutrient, how to enhance your growth?
It's also to maintain your health. I don't suppose you are able to gain weight/mass when you're falling sick or aching everywhere all the time?!

You're not thinking straight, m8.

I see my bad lol .. this shouldnt even be a topic..unless your in africa and suffering from malnutrition..oh and how do you put your picture as your avatar or bannar?

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Added on August 11, 2008, 2:32 amyay i got my image to show up! my god that took blooming ages soo like there you have it..the guy behind killy

This post has been edited by kikikilly: Aug 11 2008, 02:34 AM

Due to the fact that you are building muscles and strength, whatever micronutrient you get from food may not be enough. And consider how nutritious our local food are... I don't think it's enough. It's enough for normal people who are not bodybuilding.

Besides, as your body weight & mass increase, don't you think you'll need more nutrients to support your increased weight/mass?

I follow the MRDA(US military recommendations and stick with it) .Micro nutrient are really really tiny itsi bitsi lol .I mean my diet supplies me with most such as fruits,vegitable,milk,eggs and meats/fish. i also take a multi vitamin .

You could be right tho..but the thing its really really small unimaginably small and very easy to upkeep.

here is all i know about micro nutrients (page 25)
http://books.google.com/books?id=o6d4L8hOk...uPwarc#PPA28,M1

This post has been edited by kikikilly: Aug 11 2008, 11:24 PM

-answered-

This post has been edited by kai539: Apr 17 2009, 02:10 PM

I'm seriously underweight and I'm fed up with comments telling me I am too skinny.

What kind of diet I should follow? I am a girl btw. So not really sure all the guys' diet here can help.

Home Remedies for Underweight
Underweight home remedies and natural cures, Questions and answers

Underweight treatment using Musk Melon
Musk melon is one of the most effective home remedies for thinness. If the melon cure is properly carried out, a rapid gain in weight can usually be achieved. In this mode of treatment, only musk melons are taken three times during the day for forty days or more. In the beginning, only three kilograms of melons are taken daily for three days. Then the quantity is increased by one kilogram daily till it is sufficient to appease the hunger. Only the sweet and fresh fruits of the best variety are used in the treatment.

Underweight treatment using Mango-Milk Cure
The mango-milk cure is also an ideal treatment for thinness. For this mode of treatment, ripe and sweet mangoes should always be selected. They should be taken thrice a day-morning, afternoon, and evening. Two medium sized mangoes should be taken first and then followed by a glass of milk. Mango is rich in sugar but deficient in protein. On the other hand, milk is rich in protein but deficient in sugar. The deficiency of one is made up by the other. Mango thus combines very well with milk and an exclusive mango-milk diet taken for at least one month, will lead to improvement in health and vigour and gain in weight

Underweight treatment using Milk Cure
An exclusive milk diet for rapid gain of weight has been advocated by some nature cure practitioners. At the beginning of this mode of treatment, the patient should fast for three days on warm water and lime juice so as to cleanse the system. Thereafter, he should have a glass of milk every two hours from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. on the first day, a glass every hour and half the next day, and a glass every hour the third day. Then the quantity of milk should be gradually increased so as to take a glass every half an hour from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m., if such a quantity can be tolerated fairly comfortably

Underweight treatment using Figs
Figs are an excellent remedy for increasing weight in case of thinness. The high percentage of the rapidly assimilable sugar in this fruit make it a strengthening and fattening food. Three dried figs soaked in water should be taken twice daily

Underweight treatment using Raisins
Raisins are a good food for those who wish to gain weight. Thirty grams a day may be taken for this purpose

Underweight treatment using Nutrients
Nutrients which help to keep the nerves relaxed are of utmost importance as nervousness causes all the muscles to become tense, and the energy which goes into the tensing wastefully uses up a great deal of food. Although all vitamins and minerals are required for relaxation, the most important once are vitamin D and B6,calcium, and magnesium. The richest sources of vitamin D are milk, cod-liver oil, and rays of the sun. Calcium is supplied by milk and yoghurt. Magnesium can be obtained from green leafy vegetables such as spinach, parsley, turnip, radish, and beet tops. These vegetables should, preferably, be taken in salad form or should be lightly cooked.

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The following data is by Home Remedies

I think it's quite good and thought of sharing it with you...

Sounds like a carbs diet instead, lots of frutose found. those will make u gain on ur tummy instead.

Gain weight = gym + Diet.

Gals pac with muscle r really better than those who never did any exercise but with non/with fat body but a sloppy shoulder and tiny back (looks gross).

how u know u getting 60grams protein a day?(u assume u getting from)
56KG with 170cm? u so skinny.
if u get "rip" u gonna look like "tulang only" the stick man!
define what u mean by bulking up.

basically, the reason u want to have 9% issit to get 6 packs?

dont worry..
i am 20 and only 160 cm

isit going to work?fast 3 days,i think i would lose more weight rather than gain any weight

u shuffle?of coz la u dun gain weight,shuffle is suck,no intensity at all..i recommend u to take
breakdance bcoz it uses all the bodyparts,sort like compound movement.I just recommend,
coz i'm not a b-boy,and breakdance is sort like gymnastics..if you see gymnast,they all are
ripped,jacked up guys..wah,ur so tall but only weighs 48 kg??i'm 15,165cm tall and weighing
63 kg.If u want to be ripped,just grab a pair of dumbbells and apply the overload progression
principle,following the exercises that jswong and darkknight recommend,and always increasing
the weight.I gain 3 kg of lean muscle mass after a month using this
principle.Good day mate.

its all cold turkey...

how much determination =(

Im seriously underweiight and Im a vegetarian!
Any idea on a good diet for me?

nice posts here by darklight.