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 Clearing stocks before the coming crash, what have I missed out in the analysis?

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TSplumberly
post Aug 23 2018, 10:19 AM, updated 4y ago

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Plan to clear most of my stocks in the next few months before the coming crash. Did some analysis to help in my decision making later.

Appreciate feedback on things I over looked etc in my analysis.

Assume 4-6% pa growth and 20-30% drop in price during the crash, it will take 3-4 yrs for the price to recover.

Instead of wasting the 3-4 years for the price to recover, won't it be better if I sell out before the crash, put that money in FD etc. That is, a positive net gain during the 3-4 years.

I know this is too idealistic but what have I done wrong?

Yes, I do not have a crystal ball to know when it will crash. But a crash WILL happen. Just a matter of time.

Appreciate a constructive feedback/discussion. Thanks.

P/S I think I put this in the wrong place. Should be in the discussion section. Can someone help me to transfer it? Or tell me how to? Thanks.

This post has been edited by plumberly: Aug 23 2018, 10:21 AM
MeToo
post Aug 23 2018, 10:24 AM

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I'm not sure of a crash, but I exited some time back in preparation just in case.

Timing my side was better cause I took the money and dumped it into principal repayment of my upcoming house. Ofcourse I still hold onto a much smaller portfolio... maybe about 10% in some overseas bluechips or selected stocks.

SO I kinda pare down my exposure by 90%...
TSplumberly
post Aug 23 2018, 10:29 AM

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QUOTE(MeToo @ Aug 23 2018, 10:24 AM)
I'm not sure of a crash, but I exited some time back in preparation just in case.

Timing my side was better cause I took the money and dumped it into principal repayment of my upcoming house. Ofcourse I still hold onto a much smaller portfolio... maybe about 10% in some overseas bluechips or selected stocks.

SO I kinda pare down my exposure by 90%...
*
I see. You run faster than me. Ha.

The transfer of money back into Msia was trouble and tax free?

Thanks.
CP88
post Aug 23 2018, 10:35 AM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Aug 23 2018, 10:19 AM)

Assume 4-6% pa growth and 20-30% drop in price during the crash, it will take 3-4 yrs for the price to recover.

Instead of wasting the 3-4 years for the price to recover, won't it be better if I sell out before the crash, put that money in FD etc. That is, a positive net gain during the 3-4 years.

*
Nobody knows when the stock market will it be crashing. It was mentioned that 2018 would crash and some investor has started cashing out the early 2018. smile.gif

Minimise the expose like @MeToo said, might be a good options.
MeToo
post Aug 23 2018, 10:40 AM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Aug 23 2018, 10:29 AM)
I see. You run faster than me. Ha.

The transfer of money back into Msia was trouble and tax free?

Thanks.
*
No issue, i dont have big amounts overseas.

Although it used to be much easier for singapore as you can easily put RM300,000 of cash into a men's wallet and walk in from SIngapore? Gotta love their 10k bill

Anyway, it also depends if you have a place to put the money when you cash out, FD might not be the best option. In a real crash, even banks might go down... tongue.gif
TSplumberly
post Aug 23 2018, 10:53 AM

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QUOTE(CP88 @ Aug 23 2018, 10:35 AM)
Nobody knows when the stock market will it be crashing. It was mentioned that 2018 would crash and some investor has started cashing out the early 2018.  smile.gif

Minimise the expose like @MeToo said, might be a good options.
*
No one can predict the exact day or even month for the crash. But bad signs are there now. If not for the QE, crash would be here much earlier.

I got out 1-2 years before the crash in 2007. Though I could have made a bit more if I didnt get out that early, no regret for my decision. biggrin.gif


TSplumberly
post Aug 23 2018, 10:54 AM

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QUOTE(MeToo @ Aug 23 2018, 10:40 AM)
No issue, i dont have big amounts overseas.

Although it used to be much easier for singapore as you can easily put RM300,000 of cash into a men's wallet and walk in from SIngapore? Gotta love their 10k bill

Anyway, it also depends if you have a place to put the money when you cash out, FD might not be the best option. In a real crash, even banks might go down...  tongue.gif
*
Noted and thanks.
CP88
post Aug 23 2018, 10:56 AM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Aug 23 2018, 10:53 AM)
No one can predict the exact day or even month for the crash. But bad signs are there now. If not for the QE, crash would be here much earlier.

I got out 1-2 years before the crash in 2007. Though I could have made a bit more if I didnt get out that early, no regret for my decision.  biggrin.gif
*
Wow. Experienced investor. biggrin.gif
louzie
post Aug 23 2018, 11:05 AM

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what to do then during crash ? Buy gold ?
TSplumberly
post Aug 23 2018, 11:12 AM

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QUOTE(CP88 @ Aug 23 2018, 10:56 AM)
Wow. Experienced investor.  biggrin.gif
*
More like a scared rookie investor lah. Ha.

QUOTE(Luke Skywanker @ Aug 23 2018, 10:59 AM)
so, what crash?
in specific industries?
the entire market as a whole?
*
Global crash affecting 99% of the industries & countries.

QUOTE(louzie @ Aug 23 2018, 11:05 AM)
what to do then during crash ? Buy gold ?
*
Good question but hard to answer.


I do not mean to be rude here. Prefer to stick to what I have asked at the start of this thread. If you wish to find out more on your subject, please start another thread. No offence intended. Thanks.

This post has been edited by plumberly: Aug 23 2018, 11:25 AM
MeToo
post Aug 23 2018, 11:22 AM

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QUOTE(Luke Skywanker @ Aug 23 2018, 10:59 AM)
so, what crash?
in specific industries?
the entire market as a whole?
*
Going by the 1997/98 and 2008/09 experience... its global and when it hits there is hardly "safe haven" stocks that wont be affected..
MeToo
post Aug 23 2018, 11:23 AM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Aug 23 2018, 11:12 AM)
More like a scared rookie investor lah. Ha.

*
its all about our individual risk appetite..

I prefer to earn less then lose money.
cherroy
post Aug 23 2018, 11:38 AM

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Time the market is impossible task to do.
If market valuation indeed expensive, just trim down the holding.

Totally clearing up is not advisable (especially one is holding on good quality stock) unless one can hit the timing exactly.

What if clearing up, the market continue to go up 10~20% before the crash?
Eg.
A stock you hold now is 10.00, expect market crash, clear up.
But A still going up to 13.00

1-2 years later, market crash, A stock drop 20%, back to 10.00 level.
You buy back at 10.00, seems gain nothing in the process of 'guessing" the crash timing.

A good stock, even experiencing crash after crash, over the long time, it is still going up and way higher than before.

Having said that, the market is indeed experiencing one of longest bull run in the history due to unprecedented massive QE pumping.



tehoice
post Aug 23 2018, 12:58 PM

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agree with cherroy.

if you think the holdings you have is undervalue, you may hold on to it.

if you think the stocks have fully valued, then by all means exit

no one can time it so perfectly i guess. but it's always good to have spare cash around.

cash is always king?
tehoice
post Aug 23 2018, 01:01 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Aug 23 2018, 11:12 AM)
More like a scared rookie investor lah. Ha.
Global crash affecting 99% of the industries & countries.
Good question but hard to answer.
I do not mean to be rude here. Prefer to stick to what I have asked at the start of this thread. If you wish to find out more on your subject, please start another thread. No offence intended. Thanks.
*
what do you think of the property market?
just like the sub-prime crisis.

however, many have been talking about the property bubble burst since 2012, it's gonna burst it's gonna burst.
but fast forward 6 years now, none happened, the price psf in KL gone up from RM800 to RM2k now?
TSplumberly
post Aug 23 2018, 03:12 PM

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QUOTE(cherroy @ Aug 23 2018, 11:38 AM)
Time the market is impossible task to do.
If market valuation indeed expensive, just trim down the holding.

Totally clearing up is not advisable (especially one is holding on good quality stock) unless one can hit the timing exactly.

What if clearing up, the market continue to go up 10~20% before the crash?
Eg.
A stock you hold now is 10.00, expect market crash, clear up.
But A still going up to 13.00

1-2 years later, market crash, A stock drop 20%, back to 10.00 level.
You buy back at 10.00, seems gain nothing in the process of 'guessing" the crash timing.

A good stock, even experiencing crash after crash, over the long time, it is still going up and way higher than before.

Having said that, the market is indeed experiencing one of longest bull run in the history due to unprecedented massive QE pumping.
*
Thanks.

The question on delayed crash did cross my mind before. Said to myself, willing to take that risk as long as I have considered and done a proper evaluation. Thus airing it here for comments.

Rightly or wrongly, I prefer to see a lower growth or even a flat growth than a negative growth in my investment. Thus the above get out early strategy. Ha.

The stock is in the average category, one of the oil & gas companies. My early plan was to hand on to it and use it in my retirement when the price should go even higher due to the shortage of oil and gas in 30-50 years time.

But ....

EU has now a policy to stop production of fossil vehicles by 2040, China has the same idea but no time frame yet. Even one of the 7 oil sisters has started in the EV charging business instead of just petrol stations. Growing demand for EV now. AirBus has already started work on using battery for their planes, for short distances.

Yes, even with EV, these 7 sisters will not completely go extinct as their businesses are not 100% on transportation fuel. But it will hurt their businesses.

So ...

With the coming crash and the bleaker business future for the company, there is natural tendency (flaw?) for my mind to suggest to dump the shares now, 2 birds with one stone, figuratively speaking.



QUOTE(tehoice @ Aug 23 2018, 12:58 PM)
agree with cherroy.

if you think the holdings you have is undervalue, you may hold on to it.

if you think the stocks have fully valued, then by all means exit

no one can time it so perfectly i guess. but it's always good to have spare cash around.

cash is always king?
*
Thanks.

See above.

Not trying to time it exactly. Get out when there are enough bad signs and get in when there are confirmed recovery signs. Can be a few months or years gaps.

QUOTE(tehoice @ Aug 23 2018, 01:01 PM)
what do you think of the property market?
just like the sub-prime crisis.

however, many have been talking about the property bubble burst since 2012, it's gonna burst it's gonna burst.
but fast forward 6 years now, none happened, the price psf in KL gone up from RM800 to RM2k now?
*
Saw one very good graph on how the stock-economy-property cycles interact, with stock leading then economy and then property. Cannot find it now. But the one below is similar.

I bet my bottom dollar that in the coming crash, the real estate bubble will burst, or at least leak! Ha.


Attached Image
Showtime747
post Aug 23 2018, 03:35 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Aug 23 2018, 10:19 AM)

I know this is too idealistic but what have I done wrong?


*
Nothing wrong at all. This is called portfolio rebalancing, and it is totally up to an individual based on circumstances.

Trust your own sixth sense thumbup.gif

Besides FD, there are capital guaranteed bank products you can go into after you get out of stock market. Lower or zero return of course. So, you can sleep better.

Also consider spreading the tenure of your investment returns. Invest in vehicle with longer period of expected return (property, government/corporate bonds, gold for eg.). These investments may ride you through the turbulent times.

This post has been edited by Showtime747: Aug 23 2018, 03:37 PM
icemanfx
post Aug 23 2018, 04:04 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Aug 23 2018, 10:19 AM)
Plan to clear most of my stocks in the next few months before the coming crash. Did some analysis to help in my decision making later.

Appreciate feedback on things I over looked etc in my analysis.

Assume 4-6% pa growth and 20-30% drop in price during the crash, it will take 3-4 yrs for the price to recover.

Instead of wasting the 3-4 years for the price to recover, won't it be better if I sell out before the crash, put that money in FD etc. That is, a positive net gain during the 3-4 years.

I know this is too idealistic but what have I done wrong?

Yes, I do not have a crystal ball to know when it will crash. But a crash WILL happen. Just a matter of time.

Appreciate a constructive feedback/discussion. Thanks.

P/S I think I put this in the wrong place. Should be in the discussion section. Can someone help me to transfer it? Or tell me how to? Thanks.
*
Bull Market Hits a Milestone: 3,453 Days. Most Americans Aren’t at the Party.

The party has been going for more than a decade. But a lot of Americans haven’t been celebrating.

Stocks crossed a major threshold on Wednesday, when the 10-year-old bull market arguably became the longest on record.

It ranks among the great booms in American market history. The Standard & Poor’s 500-stock index has soared more than 320 percent since emerging from the rubble of the financial crisis in March 2009, creating more than $18 trillion in wealth.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/22/business...pe=sectionfront

Stock market correction is a matter of when not if. if you don't feel comfortable with current market then sell. during bull run, most if not all herd are blinded by greed.

cherroy
post Aug 23 2018, 04:09 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Aug 23 2018, 03:12 PM)

Attached Image
*
If one thinks equities is indeed heading for crash, can bank on bond.
Bond price (treasuries, sovereign bond) highly may shoot to roof if market crash.
So don't need to clear off all investment, even if market is crashing.
There are a lot of avenue to hedge on it.

Alternatively, one can still hold on good stocks, but at the same time buy some short (index) through futures market, to hedge upon market crash.

PBB price was 3.xx prior before 97 crash, it crashed to below 1.00 during the crisis.
So even one bought prior before crash at 3.xx, one still makes good return after 20 years later.

So you don't need good timing to make money in the market, but you need to pick a right stock to make money.

Yes, good timing, can make extra more, and also it is indeed wise to rebalancing/trim down and increase cash level if market is expensive, but at the same times, it is needless to get the timing exactly, or keep on guessing when the market will crash.

Don't bet when the market will down, as well as don't bet which stock will shoot up tomorrow or next month.


TSplumberly
post Aug 23 2018, 04:47 PM

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QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Aug 23 2018, 03:35 PM)
Nothing wrong at all. This is called portfolio rebalancing, and it is totally up to an individual based on circumstances.

Trust your own sixth sense  thumbup.gif

Besides FD, there are capital guaranteed bank products you can go into after you get out of stock market. Lower or zero return of course. So, you can sleep better.

Also consider spreading the tenure of your investment returns. Invest in vehicle with longer period of expected return (property, government/corporate bonds, gold for eg.). These investments may ride you through the turbulent times.
*
Noted and thanks.

QUOTE(icemanfx @ Aug 23 2018, 04:04 PM)
Bull Market Hits a Milestone: 3,453 Days. Most Americans Aren’t at the Party.

The party has been going for more than a decade. But a lot of Americans haven’t been celebrating.

Stocks crossed a major threshold on Wednesday, when the 10-year-old bull market arguably became the longest on record.

It ranks among the great booms in American market history. The Standard & Poor’s 500-stock index has soared more than 320 percent since emerging from the rubble of the financial crisis in March 2009, creating more than $18 trillion in wealth.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/22/business...pe=sectionfront

Stock market correction is a matter of when not if. if you don't feel comfortable with current market then sell. during bull run, most if not all herd are blinded by greed.
*
Thanks.

Remind me of reading another article on my mobile the other day which I hope to re-read again later. But cannot find it now. About Cardiff indicator which has signaled the past recession rather well once the readings were above 200. If you know where to get that article, please drop a line here. I think most likely I did not get the name right, Cardiff.

QUOTE(cherroy @ Aug 23 2018, 04:09 PM)
If one thinks equities is indeed heading for crash, can bank on bond.
Bond price (treasuries, sovereign bond) highly may shoot to roof if market crash.
So don't need to clear off all investment, even if market is crashing.
There are a lot of avenue to hedge on it.

Alternatively, one can still hold on good stocks, but at the same time buy some short (index) through futures market, to hedge upon market crash.

PBB price was 3.xx prior before 97 crash, it crashed to below 1.00 during the crisis.
So even one bought prior before crash at 3.xx, one still makes good return after 20 years later.

So you don't need good timing to make money in the market, but you need to pick a right stock to make money.

Yes, good timing, can make extra more, and also it is indeed wise to rebalancing/trim down and increase cash level if market is expensive, but at the same times, it is needless to get the timing exactly, or keep on guessing when the market will crash.

Don't bet when the market will down, as well as don't bet which stock will shoot up tomorrow or next month.
*
Thanks.

Yes, hoping to get some PB or MB during crash. But dont think there will be many sellers then.

This post has been edited by plumberly: Aug 23 2018, 04:47 PM
Ramjade
post Aug 23 2018, 09:31 PM

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For me I will collect my cash and go in when market crash.

Hold what I have and don't add unless it's attractive. It's OK to seat on cash while waiting.

So if market don't crash, my dividends still come rolling in. If market crash, I average down and increase my dividends.
donhay
post Aug 24 2018, 09:31 AM

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QUOTE(Ramjade @ Aug 23 2018, 09:31 PM)
For me I will collect my cash and go in when market crash.

Hold what I have and don't add unless it's attractive. It's OK to seat on cash while waiting.

So if market don't crash,  my dividends still come rolling in. If market crash,  I average down and increase my dividends.
*
brilliant idea, which dividends collecting company do u have at the moment?

Thanks
Ramjade
post Aug 24 2018, 09:53 AM

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QUOTE(donhay @ Aug 24 2018, 09:31 AM)
brilliant idea, which dividends collecting company do u have at the moment?

Thanks
*
Of course your margin of safety need to be large for you not to fear it.
Singtel
UMS
S-reits

Are some of my dividend machine.
markedestiny
post Aug 24 2018, 10:06 AM

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QUOTE(Ramjade @ Aug 24 2018, 09:53 AM)
Of course your margin of safety need to be large for you not to fear it.
Singtel
UMS
S-reits

Are some of my dividend machine.
*
how resilient were the S-reits during the 2008 recession?
Ramjade
post Aug 24 2018, 10:07 AM

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QUOTE(markedestiny @ Aug 24 2018, 10:06 AM)
how resilient were the S-reits during the 2008 recession?
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Everything drop but those who pick the right stocks are earning double digit dividends.
CE|C93
post Aug 24 2018, 10:51 AM

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If enough investors think as you do, thats when we will have a crash. brows.gif
markedestiny
post Aug 24 2018, 11:10 AM

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QUOTE(CE|C93 @ Aug 24 2018, 10:51 AM)
If enough investors think as you do, thats when we will have a crash. brows.gif
*
even technical analysis chart works along self-fulfilling prophecy too laugh.gif
icemanfx
post Aug 24 2018, 02:27 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Aug 23 2018, 04:47 PM)
Noted and thanks.
Thanks.

Remind me of reading another article on my mobile the other day which I hope to re-read again later. But cannot find it now. About Cardiff indicator which has signaled the past recession rather well once the readings were above 200. If you know where to get that article, please drop a line here. I think most likely I did not get the name right, Cardiff.
Thanks.

Yes, hoping to get some PB or MB during crash. But dont think there will be many sellers then.
*
QUOTE(CE|C93 @ Aug 24 2018, 10:51 AM)
If enough investors think as you do, thats when we will have a crash. brows.gif
*
QUOTE(markedestiny @ Aug 24 2018, 11:10 AM)
even technical analysis chart works along self-fulfilling prophecy  too  laugh.gif
*
Although long term price could be at equilibrium but short term price is largely driven by speculative or sentiment e.g o&g stocks, btc, recently.

foofoosasa
post Aug 24 2018, 02:48 PM

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Valuation wise the only stocks I see on stretch is US tech stocks.

Malaysia Market due to its cut back of project and average price of Crude oil, most people still has slightly bearish view on Malaysian stocks.

10 year treasury yield still have safe margin above Fed rate.

Honestly speaking I still think the unprecedented amount of QE since 09' to 13' still havent 100% fully reflect in stock market. The only one truly already reflected is in property market such as Hong kong and Sydney , Vancouver etc ( I know how crazy is the price went up especially these few places ).

For me I am betting there is one more bull coming (the most crazy bull run ever)....but with bearish view with a lot of trade war issue it probably takes another 1 -2 years before it comes.

Just my view la

PS: I am still holding 85% stocks now in personal porfolio 15% cash ( cash that for stocks investment exclude other purpose).

This post has been edited by foofoosasa: Aug 24 2018, 02:50 PM
icemanfx
post Aug 24 2018, 04:07 PM

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QUOTE(foofoosasa @ Aug 24 2018, 02:48 PM)
Valuation wise the only stocks I see on stretch is US tech stocks.

Malaysia Market due to its cut back of project and average price of Crude oil, most people still has slightly bearish view on Malaysian stocks.

10 year treasury yield still have safe margin above Fed rate.

Honestly speaking I still think the unprecedented amount of QE since 09' to 13' still havent 100% fully reflect in stock market. The only one truly already reflected is in property market such as Hong kong and Sydney , Vancouver etc ( I know how crazy is the price went up especially these few places ).

For me I am betting there is one more bull coming (the most crazy bull run ever)....but with bearish view with a lot of trade war issue it probably takes another 1 -2 years before it comes.

Just my view la

PS: I am still holding 85% stocks now in personal porfolio 15% cash ( cash that for stocks investment exclude other purpose).
*
US QE fueled worldwide assets inflation; similarly, these bull run slowed or ended with qe. shrinking of u.s fed balance sheet will likely have similar profound effects. erratic and unconventional behaviour of dt will likely add uncertainty and confusion during next crisis.

as no economic recession is the same, next will be from unconventional, non-traditional or unexpected sector.

This post has been edited by icemanfx: Aug 24 2018, 04:08 PM
foofoosasa
post Aug 24 2018, 04:14 PM

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QUOTE(icemanfx @ Aug 24 2018, 04:07 PM)
US QE fueled worldwide assets inflation; similarly, these bull run slowed or ended with qe. shrinking of u.s fed balance sheet will likely have similar profound effects. erratic and unconventional behaviour of dt will likely add uncertainty and confusion during next crisis.

as no economic recession is the same, next will be from unconventional, non-traditional or unexpected sector.
*
so what is your opinion then? are we already entering bear phase? beginning of the crash? late bull market? or etc???

just want hear more opinion. No right or wrong.
icemanfx
post Aug 24 2018, 04:56 PM

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QUOTE(foofoosasa @ Aug 24 2018, 04:14 PM)
so what is your opinion then? are we already entering bear phase? beginning of the crash? late bull market? or etc???

just want hear more opinion. No right or wrong.
*
Stock market crash always begin earlier than expected and unexpectedly.

bear phase is after over 20% price drop.

tehoice
post Aug 24 2018, 05:08 PM

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QUOTE(icemanfx @ Aug 24 2018, 04:56 PM)
Stock market crash always begin earlier than expected and unexpectedly.

bear phase is after over 20% price drop.
*
but the index isn't suggesting bearish market. 20% drop is no where to be seen and let alone the most awaited crash?


jutamind
post Aug 24 2018, 07:57 PM

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I've parked 60% of my stock holdings in REIT, and 90% of my equity unit trust funds in bond fund since last Mar.

But hand very itchy every now and then....

This post has been edited by jutamind: Aug 24 2018, 09:50 PM
icemanfx
post Aug 28 2018, 02:00 PM

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QUOTE(foofoosasa @ Aug 24 2018, 04:14 PM)
so what is your opinion then? are we already entering bear phase? beginning of the crash? late bull market? or etc???

just want hear more opinion. No right or wrong.
*
Long term stock price reflect fundamentals; however, market sentiment supersede in the short term. different people interpret data differently by placing different weight.

believe the biggest threat to u.s economy is inflation rate. dt behavior is likely to fuel inflation rate rise and subsequent bank rate.


This post has been edited by icemanfx: Aug 28 2018, 02:26 PM
askingquestion
post Aug 28 2018, 03:50 PM

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QUOTE(tehoice @ Aug 24 2018, 05:08 PM)
but the index isn't suggesting bearish market. 20% drop is no where to be seen and let alone the most awaited crash?
*
I believe US share market would crash if Donald Trump is impeached.
godhand
post Aug 28 2018, 03:54 PM

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QUOTE(louzie @ Aug 23 2018, 11:05 AM)
what to do then during crash ? Buy gold ?
*
stock la hello. u want to buy when its cheap.
icemanfx
post Aug 28 2018, 04:12 PM

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QUOTE(askingquestion @ Aug 28 2018, 03:50 PM)
I believe US share market would crash if Donald Trump is impeached.
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dt is not the sole factor that drove up stock price. in the contrary, if he didn't start trade war, u.s stock price would have even higher.

This post has been edited by icemanfx: Aug 28 2018, 04:12 PM
askingquestion
post Aug 28 2018, 04:35 PM

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QUOTE(icemanfx @ Aug 28 2018, 04:12 PM)
dt is not the sole factor that drove up stock price. in the contrary, if he didn't start trade war, u.s stock price would have even higher.
*
Its not really a remark on Donald Trump.

I believe any US president getting impeach will crash the stock market.
icemanfx
post Aug 29 2018, 09:14 AM

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QUOTE(askingquestion @ Aug 28 2018, 04:35 PM)
Its not really a remark on Donald Trump.

I believe any US president getting impeach will crash the stock market.
*
If dt is impeached, president pence may be more market friendly, stock price could rally instead.

Showtime747
post Aug 29 2018, 09:29 AM

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QUOTE(icemanfx @ Aug 24 2018, 04:56 PM)
Stock market crash always begin earlier than expected and unexpectedly.

bear phase is after over 20% price drop.
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plumberly, you might want to rethink your plan as long as bro iceman thinks stock market will crash....

You may miss out on the continued bull run...
askingquestion
post Aug 29 2018, 09:44 AM

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QUOTE(icemanfx @ Aug 29 2018, 09:14 AM)
If dt is impeached, president pence may be more market friendly, stock price could rally instead.
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It will crash first before the rally laugh.gif
HonMun
post Aug 29 2018, 09:45 AM

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No matter who win or lose.
Most important, can survive during crash.
TSplumberly
post Aug 29 2018, 09:53 AM

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QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Aug 29 2018, 09:29 AM)
plumberly, you might want to rethink your plan as long as bro iceman thinks stock market will crash....

You may miss out on the continued bull run...
*
Thanks.

Any money back guarantee? Ha.

Crash will come, only a matter of timing.


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post Aug 29 2018, 09:59 AM

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QUOTE(foofoosasa @ Aug 24 2018, 02:48 PM)

For me I am betting there is one more bull coming (the most crazy bull run ever)....but with bearish view with a lot of trade war issue it probably takes another 1 -2 years before it comes.


*
Concur with you on 2 counts (maybe we have been reading or watching the same contents on the net? Ha.)

AA
Last 5th Elliot wave step to come before the crash.

BB
One study suggested mid 2019 - mid 2020 for the crash (cant recall the exact months now).

Dont get me wrong, I am not trying to time the crash down to the day/week/month. If you know a storm is coming, it is better to plan ahead.

Cheerio.
Ramjade
post Aug 29 2018, 09:59 AM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Aug 29 2018, 09:53 AM)
Crash will come, only a matter of timing.
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This I also believe
foofoosasa
post Aug 29 2018, 10:13 AM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Aug 29 2018, 09:59 AM)
Concur with you on 2 counts (maybe we have been reading or watching the same contents on the net? Ha.)

AA
Last 5th Elliot wave step to come before the crash.

BB
One study suggested mid 2019 - mid 2020 for the crash (cant recall the exact months now).

Dont get me wrong, I am not trying to time the crash down to the day/week/month. If you know a storm is coming, it is better to plan ahead.

Cheerio.
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Then u shouldn't sell all laugh.gif tongue.gif

maybe keep 60% stocks , 40% cash lorr... ( slowly reduce once your stock up )

I still very optimistic on market I dunno why.

I don't watch those content at all, my gut feeling tell me LOL.

we might enter prolong long bear market ( drop 30% from all high time and it will continue for many months ) , but I still don't see

market crash yet.

See how this trade war game turn out to be, I expect it will be dissolved in coming months and panic buying mode is coming. Market

expect there will be another talk on sept if trade still couldn't resolve then we probably will go into deeper bear mode.

This post has been edited by foofoosasa: Aug 29 2018, 10:15 AM
markedestiny
post Aug 29 2018, 10:37 AM

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I am newbie, just started investing on stock few months back. Being inexperience, I have read up why the previous stock market crashes happened so that I would be caution not to be the one with the bag down along with the plunge

Currently, the market is too optimistic, taking every opportunities to rally and bull even with the slightest hint of easing of trade war tensions, turkey currency meltdown, etc. The previous crashes happened in the midst of positive sentiments and confidence that the market is all good

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post Aug 29 2018, 10:47 AM

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QUOTE(markedestiny @ Aug 29 2018, 10:37 AM)
I am newbie,  just started investing on stock few months back. Being inexperience, I have read up why the previous stock market crashes happened so that I  would be caution not to be the one with the bag down along with the plunge

Currently, the market is too optimistic, taking every opportunities to rally and bull even with the slightest hint of easing of trade war tensions, turkey currency meltdown, etc.  The previous crashes happened in the midst of positive sentiments and confidence that the market is all good
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My 2 cents ...

My personal view is, it is just not the right timing for a beginner to try the stock market near the end of the cycle when most companies are overvalued. The good sifus here can still make money regardless of the market.

Park your money in a safer place (like FD, ASX etc) first.

After the crash, then use the money to get some fair companies at wonderful prices. Study some companies now and get them when the prices are right after the crash.

Cheerio.

This post has been edited by plumberly: Aug 29 2018, 10:48 AM
TSplumberly
post Aug 29 2018, 11:22 AM

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First, my apology to those who feel I am over doing this.

The amount is a quite a big amount (to me). I prefer to think this through and then make a decision. Even if later it did not turn out the way I wanted, at least I have done an analysis and I will live with my decision.

Thinking aloud on the 4 stages, what are the positive and negatives possible outcomes as summarised in the table.

Appreciate your view, additions, etc. Thanks.

P/S No, I will not be buying that shares after the crash even if the price is low. As I said earlier, the future for that industry will be challenging due to the move to electric vehicles.

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Showtime747
post Aug 29 2018, 11:44 AM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Aug 29 2018, 09:53 AM)
Thanks.

Any money back guarantee? Ha.

Crash will come, only a matter of timing.
*
I was in your same thought 1 year earlier. And I moved my money out of stock market since mid-last year biggrin.gif

The market continued to increase, until recently, the stock market backed down.

Stock market has been giving me double digit return before 2018 (div + cap appreciation). I think I would have made double digit this year should I remain in stock market.

But investment is all about risk and return and comfort. Now that my return is much lower (4-6%), but much safer (mostly capital guaranteed). I am now a spectator from the ring side biggrin.gif

Trust your own instinct and prepare to accept lower return if you are risk averse.

Great thread you started as most threads here are about how to invest, which stock to buy etc. Its an alternative view and reminding people things may go wrong...
markedestiny
post Aug 29 2018, 11:52 AM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Aug 29 2018, 10:47 AM)
My 2 cents ...

My personal view is, it is just not the right timing for a beginner to try the stock market near the end of the cycle when most companies are overvalued. The good sifus here can still make money regardless of the market.

Park your money in a safer place (like FD, ASX etc) first.

After the crash, then use the money to get some fair companies at wonderful prices. Study some companies now and get them when the prices are right after the crash.

Cheerio.
*
I have invested in some shares with PE <10, EPS >15 (value investing) despite my initial intention to keep longer term, have sold off all last month for small profit, keeping only REITs.

I usually read news and article from US/world market for head ups.
markedestiny
post Aug 29 2018, 11:58 AM

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QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Aug 29 2018, 11:44 AM)
I was in your same thought 1 year earlier. And I moved my money out of stock market since mid-last year  biggrin.gif

The market continued to increase, until recently, the stock market backed down.

Stock market has been giving me double digit return before 2018 (div + cap appreciation). I think I would have made double digit this year should I remain in stock market.

But investment is all about risk and return and comfort. Now that my return is much lower (4-6%), but much safer (mostly capital guaranteed). I am now a spectator from the ring side  biggrin.gif

Trust your own instinct and prepare to accept lower return if you are risk averse.

Great thread you started as most threads here are about how to invest, which stock to buy etc. Its an alternative view and reminding people things may go wrong...
*
So you are the one forumer who exited from the market mid last year, whom I can't recall the nick as I always wanted to ask you why the exit.

2017 was a good year for most investors as compared to this year which is very much volatile...too bad i didn't get started last year

This post has been edited by markedestiny: Aug 29 2018, 02:21 PM
icemanfx
post Aug 29 2018, 01:58 PM

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QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Aug 29 2018, 09:29 AM)
plumberly, you might want to rethink your plan as long as bro iceman thinks stock market will crash....

You may miss out on the continued bull run...
*
QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Aug 29 2018, 11:44 AM)
I was in your same thought 1 year earlier. And I moved my money out of stock market since mid-last year  biggrin.gif

The market continued to increase, until recently, the stock market backed down.

Stock market has been giving me double digit return before 2018 (div + cap appreciation). I think I would have made double digit this year should I remain in stock market.

But investment is all about risk and return and comfort. Now that my return is much lower (4-6%), but much safer (mostly capital guaranteed). I am now a spectator from the ring side  biggrin.gif

Trust your own instinct and prepare to accept lower return if you are risk averse.

Great thread you started as most threads here are about how to invest, which stock to buy etc. Its an alternative view and reminding people things may go wrong...
*
Fortezan
post Aug 29 2018, 02:25 PM

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Just a sharing from a global economy outlook workshop organized by a brokerage firm which I attended. According to their panel of speakers, most of them are of the opinion that this bull run will continue at least until the next US presidential election in 2020, reason being DT will do everything in his power to keep the US economy in good shape so that he can get re-elected for the 2nd term. After that, be very careful, the mother of all crash is coming
markedestiny
post Aug 29 2018, 02:37 PM

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QUOTE(Fortezan @ Aug 29 2018, 02:25 PM)
Just a sharing from a global economy outlook workshop organized by a brokerage firm which I attended. According to their panel of speakers, most of them are of the opinion that this bull run will continue at least until the next US presidential election in 2020, reason being DT will do everything in his power to keep the US economy in good shape so that he can get re-elected for the 2nd term. After that, be very careful, the mother of all crash is coming
*
I'd be surprised if they did not discuss or take into consideration of the possibility of his impeachment, and yet encouraged investor to look far ahead into 2020
cherroy
post Aug 29 2018, 03:05 PM

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QUOTE(markedestiny @ Aug 29 2018, 02:37 PM)
I'd be surprised if they did not discuss or take into consideration of the possibility of his impeachment, and yet encouraged investor to look far ahead into 2020
*
The impeachment is unlikely or very low possibility only.

Also US market is mature enough that the market generally won't be affected greatly by who is the president, as long as the economy is growing (which is red hot currently for US), and corporate earning is good, and interest rate is subdued.

The interest rate situation has more risk than impeachment.
Should pay more attention to the flatten yield curve, it may give more indication how market may behave.

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post Aug 29 2018, 04:37 PM

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QUOTE(Fortezan @ Aug 29 2018, 02:25 PM)
Just a sharing from a global economy outlook workshop organized by a brokerage firm which I attended. According to their panel of speakers, most of them are of the opinion that this bull run will continue at least until the next US presidential election in 2020, reason being DT will do everything in his power to keep the US economy in good shape so that he can get re-elected for the 2nd term. After that, be very careful, the mother of all crash is coming
*
don't confuse it with Bursa.

Seriously I don't see bursa will enjoy the last bull run. ( In my opinion )





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post Aug 29 2018, 04:42 PM

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QUOTE(markedestiny @ Aug 29 2018, 02:37 PM)
I'd be surprised if they did not discuss or take into consideration of the possibility of his impeachment, and yet encouraged investor to look far ahead into 2020
*
Like the trade war, whether the impeachment will be successful is still anyone's guess, but most signs are still showing a continuing bull run. 2020 is not that far ahead either, you'll probably have around 2 years to make the most out of this bull
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post Aug 29 2018, 04:48 PM

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QUOTE(foofoosasa @ Aug 29 2018, 04:37 PM)
don't confuse it with Bursa.

Seriously I don't see bursa will enjoy the last bull run. ( In my opinion )
*
I'm not, forgot to mention, they are actually encouraging investors to invest in US stocks and ETF
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post Aug 29 2018, 04:52 PM

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QUOTE(Luke Skywanker @ Aug 29 2018, 04:51 PM)
I don't get this sentence.
you mean:
Bursa will suffer in the next bull run
Bursa was not affected in the last bull run
Bursa will not be affected by US bull run

or what? ayam konpius
*
Bursa won't be able to join the US bull run party.
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post Aug 29 2018, 04:54 PM

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QUOTE(cherroy @ Aug 29 2018, 03:05 PM)
The impeachment is unlikely or very low possibility only.

Also US market is mature enough that the market generally won't be affected greatly by who is the president, as long as the economy is growing (which is red hot currently for US), and corporate earning is good, and interest rate is subdued.

The interest rate situation has more risk than impeachment.
Should pay more attention to the flatten yield curve, it may give more indication how market may behave.
*
Good point, I'm staying invested but very cautiously monitoring
markedestiny
post Aug 29 2018, 04:55 PM

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QUOTE(Fortezan @ Aug 29 2018, 04:42 PM)
Like the trade war, whether the impeachment will be successful is still anyone's guess, but most signs are still showing a continuing bull run. 2020 is not that far ahead either, you'll probably have around 2 years to make the most out of this bull
*
S&P 500 already broken record, longest bull run since last crash, still can continue? Any good reasons, other than Trumponomics?

As it is, I still think the market is overly optimistic, taking every opportunities to go bullish

This post has been edited by markedestiny: Aug 29 2018, 05:33 PM
cherroy
post Aug 30 2018, 09:42 AM

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QUOTE(markedestiny @ Aug 29 2018, 04:55 PM)
S&P 500 already broken record,  longest bull run since last crash, still can continue? Any good reasons, other than Trumponomics?

As it is, I still think the market is overly optimistic, taking every opportunities to go bullish
*
The USD strength, and previous QE money around the globe that flowing back to US + tax cut money + dovish Fed, that resulted the bull keep on charging.

Based on history (which repeating many times) market won't tumbled if they were not making new high.
So you need the market keep on going up a steep rate, before it can tumble. laugh.gif


This post has been edited by cherroy: Aug 30 2018, 09:45 AM
markedestiny
post Aug 30 2018, 03:00 PM

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QUOTE(cherroy @ Aug 30 2018, 09:42 AM)
The USD strength, and previous QE money around the globe that flowing back to US + tax cut money + dovish Fed, that resulted the bull keep on charging.

Based on history (which repeating many times) market won't tumbled if they were not making new high. 
So you need the market keep on going up a steep rate, before it can tumble.  laugh.gif
*
So what's your strategy, will you keep investing to ride the new high? biggrin.gif
TSplumberly
post Sep 2 2018, 12:24 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Aug 29 2018, 11:22 AM)
First, my apology to those who feel I am over doing this.

The amount is a quite a big amount (to me). I prefer to think this through and then make a decision. Even if later it did not turn out the way I wanted, at least I have done an analysis and I will live with my decision.

Thinking aloud on the 4 stages, what are the positive and negatives possible outcomes as summarised in the table.

Appreciate your view, additions, etc. Thanks.

P/S No, I will not be buying that shares after the crash even if the price is low. As I said earlier, the future for that industry will be challenging due to the move to electric vehicles.


*
No feedback/comment on my overview? Tolong lah.

Updated one as below. As of now, tempted with 70% probability to sell 90-95% of the shares, keeping some for sentimental reason. Ha.


Attached Image
icemanfx
post Sep 2 2018, 12:50 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Sep 2 2018, 12:24 PM)
No feedback/comment on my overview? Tolong lah.

Updated one as below. As of now, tempted with 70% probability to sell 90-95% of the shares, keeping some for sentimental reason. Ha.
Attached Image
*
Everyone's risks appetite is different and assess risks differently.

Since you have made up your mind, need not ask strangers for opinion.
TSplumberly
post Sep 2 2018, 06:58 PM

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QUOTE(icemanfx @ Sep 2 2018, 12:50 PM)
Everyone's risks appetite is different and assess risks differently.

Since you have made up your mind, need not ask strangers for opinion.
*
Noted and thanks. icon_rolleyes.gif

If I sell, it will be a big deviation from my original retirement plan. To minimise me overlooking important factors and thus making the wrong decision, I then asked here for inputs for me to consider as there are many friends here more knowledgeable on the subject than me.

I do not know what I do not know. So ... cry.gif

Eg I was planning to get 2 new tyres and put them on the front. More tear and wear on the front tyres. So the better ones should be at the front. Learnt from a friend that new tyres should be at the rear. Why? Easier for the car to go into hydroplaning at the rear if the new ones are at the front. Best to watch this video. Put new tyres at the rear to maximise control.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oa9hzcjdi5Q

Sorry for the off topic here. notworthy.gif



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post Sep 2 2018, 08:32 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Sep 2 2018, 06:58 PM)
Noted and thanks.  icon_rolleyes.gif

If I sell, it will be a big deviation from my original retirement plan. To minimise me overlooking important factors and thus making the wrong decision, I then asked here for inputs for me to consider as there are many friends here more knowledgeable on the subject than me.

I do not know what I do not know. So ... cry.gif

Eg I was planning to get 2 new tyres and put them on the front. More tear and wear on the front tyres. So the better ones should be at the front. Learnt from a friend that new tyres should be at the rear. Why? Easier for the car to go into hydroplaning at the rear if the new ones are at the front. Best to watch this video. Put new tyres at the rear to maximise control.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oa9hzcjdi5Q

Sorry for the off topic here.  notworthy.gif
*
It is your money. If your analysis is correct, you funds is protected. If your gut feeling is wrong, you only made less. You can treat "lost gain if any" as insurance or hedging premium.

On the other hand, stocks is liquid, you could sell in a instant. Offload all when the time comes.

Placing new tires on the front is widely practice but inappropriate.

This post has been edited by icemanfx: Sep 3 2018, 12:29 AM
markedestiny
post Sep 3 2018, 02:31 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Sep 2 2018, 12:24 PM)
No feedback/comment on my overview? Tolong lah.

Updated one as below. As of now, tempted with 70% probability to sell 90-95% of the shares, keeping some for sentimental reason. Ha.
Attached Image
*
I've read an article which shares your dilemma but not able to search back the article. Sorry, not able to provide the link.

The scenario is exactly like yours, in expectation of market downturn and when to sell...sell too early, you missed out the gains when the stocks in hand continue to grow; or sell too late, you get caught with your bag of holdings plunging downward.

The writer suggested to get around this, sell 60% of your portfolio and with balance 40%, continue to assess the market situation until you ar sure and confident of your decision, whether to sell all or continue to hold and assess market condition.

Whether or not, this make sense to you, do evaluate your risk appetite and decides for yourself how you want to proceed...your call at the end of the day.
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QUOTE(markedestiny @ Sep 3 2018, 02:31 PM)
I've read an article which shares your dilemma but not able to search back the article.  Sorry, not able to provide the link.

The scenario is exactly  like yours,  in expectation of market downturn and when to sell...sell too early, you missed out the gains when the stocks in hand  continue to grow;  or sell too late, you get caught with your bag of holdings plunging downward.

The writer suggested to get around this, sell 60% of your portfolio and with balance 40%, continue to assess the market  situation until you ar sure and confident of your decision, whether to sell  all or continue to hold and assess market condition.

Whether or not, this make sense to you, do evaluate your risk appetite and decides for yourself how you want to proceed...your call at the end of the day.
*
Thanks.

If you happened to find the article, please share with me. Interested to have a read.

I think I read something similar in Trade Your Way to Financial Freedom by VK Tharp. What I got from that book is, determine what is the price to buy AND what is the price to sell BEFORE you buy! Ha.

Cheerio.
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post Sep 5 2018, 09:50 PM

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I get this funny feeling it going to be black october and I start to sell off my stock even when it climbing up like MyEG. I did try to install metastock to predict but my feeling not good. Will be looking at the gold investment account from the bank as alternative as I scare of currency drop like Indonesia.
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post Sep 6 2018, 09:57 AM

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QUOTE(Battlefield1942 @ Sep 5 2018, 09:50 PM)
I get this funny feeling it going to be black october and I start to sell off my stock even when it climbing up like MyEG. I did try to install metastock to predict but my feeling not good. Will be looking at the gold investment account from the bank as alternative as I scare of currency drop like Indonesia.
*
They say Sept is the worst performing month in the global stock market. Please don't take that as the bible truth. Ha. I wonder how many of the past recessions started in Sept.

Not trying to add fuel to the recession is coming fire, ok? Ha.

I am now P90 in selling my shares. Question now is when?

Plan is to monitor the shares:
* sales
* debt
* cash flow
* revenue
* dividend
* intrinsic value
* etc

and sell if one of the above goes out of the norm (on the negative side).

If the above are all OK, then sell when the price drops by more than -2 * std deviation (40 days).

Cheerio.

This post has been edited by plumberly: Sep 6 2018, 04:09 PM
TSplumberly
post Sep 25 2018, 09:55 AM

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QUOTE(Luke Skywanker @ Sep 25 2018, 09:45 AM)
so, any new discussion biggrin.gif
*
Ha ha.

Got something in mind. Let me prepare some graphs for sharing later on why I prefer to get out before the crash.
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post Sep 25 2018, 09:57 AM

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so everybody successfully trim down your holding? Recent bear is quite fierce sweat.gif
markedestiny
post Oct 2 2018, 09:53 AM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Sep 6 2018, 09:57 AM)
They say Sept is the worst performing month in the global stock market. Please don't take that as the bible truth. Ha. I wonder how many of the past recessions started in Sept.

Not trying to add fuel to the recession is coming fire, ok? Ha.

I am now P90 in selling my shares. Question now is when?

Plan is to monitor the shares:
* sales
* debt
* cash flow
* revenue
* dividend
* intrinsic value
* etc

and sell if one of the above goes out of the norm (on the negative side).

If the above are all OK, then sell when the price drops by more than -2 * std deviation (40 days).

Cheerio.
*
Quite alot of criteria to consider and monitor laugh.gif

What is your position now?
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post Oct 2 2018, 10:05 AM

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QUOTE(markedestiny @ Oct 2 2018, 09:53 AM)
Quite alot of criteria to consider and monitor  laugh.gif

What is your position now?
*
Yes, too many to keep my eyes on. Only on dividends and price at the moment.

Got the -2*SD graphs in place now. Waiting for the day to jump out! Ha.

Please don't come back and lecture me that no one can time the market. I am not trying to time the market. Just want to know when there are strong signs that the company is not doing well and better get out then.

Cheerio.
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post Oct 2 2018, 10:34 AM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Oct 2 2018, 10:05 AM)
Yes, too many to keep my eyes on. Only on dividends and price at the moment.

Got the -2*SD graphs in place now. Waiting for the day to jump out! Ha.

Please don't come back and lecture me that no one can time the market. I am not trying to time the market. Just want to know when there are strong signs that the company is not doing well and better get out then.

Cheerio.
*
I have taken interest in your scenario given that most retail investor would have the need to act, regardless of the timing. biggrin.gif
Will follow your update from time to time.
TSplumberly
post Oct 2 2018, 12:31 PM

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QUOTE(markedestiny @ Oct 2 2018, 10:34 AM)
I have taken interest in your scenario given that most retail investor would have the need to act, regardless of the timing.  biggrin.gif 
Will follow your update from time to time.
*
You are breaking my no 1 rule, do not blindly follow others. Ha.

Instead of using Excel to do the 2SD monitoring, can use Bollinger chart in most stock software. Don't use one indicator in your decision making. Use at least 2 independent indicators.

Eg
* the sun rises
* now it is bright
then the 2 criteria are met! Not really, one follows the other.

Same with price indicators. So beware!

Cheerio.
markedestiny
post Oct 2 2018, 05:09 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Oct 2 2018, 12:31 PM)
You are breaking my no 1 rule, do not blindly follow others. Ha.

Instead of using Excel to do the 2SD monitoring, can use Bollinger chart in most stock software. Don't use one indicator in your decision making. Use at least 2 independent indicators.

Eg
* the sun rises
* now it is bright
then the 2 criteria are met! Not really, one follows the other.

Same with price indicators. So beware!

Cheerio.
*
I mean I am interested to know how retail investor like yourself react to the scenario in anticipation of a market crash...

My opinion is that when the market really crash, it is without warning regardless of criteria you set for yourself.
Ramjade
post Oct 2 2018, 06:01 PM

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QUOTE(markedestiny @ Oct 2 2018, 05:09 PM)
I mean I am interested to know how retail investor like yourself react to the scenario in anticipation of a market crash...

My opinion is that when the market really crash, it is without warning regardless of criteria you set for yourself.
*
Market can crash so just prepare bucket load of cash to scoop up good stocks. Don't chase stocks which price have ran away.
TSplumberly
post Oct 2 2018, 06:16 PM

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QUOTE(markedestiny @ Oct 2 2018, 05:09 PM)
I mean I am interested to know how retail investor like yourself react to the scenario in anticipation of a market crash...

My opinion is that when the market really crash, it is without warning regardless of criteria you set for yourself.
*
I know what you mean. Good to have some people in the same line of looking ahead. Ha.

Mind sharing which construction companies you have and are not doing well due to ECRL or HSR? PM me the name. Curious to know.

If now it is not doing well, with recession, it will do even worse. Like I have said many times, I do not mean to add fuel to the fire (tiny little smoke at the moment?). Ha.

This post has been edited by plumberly: Oct 2 2018, 07:47 PM
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post Oct 3 2018, 09:59 AM

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QUOTE(Ramjade @ Oct 2 2018, 06:01 PM)
Market can crash so just prepare bucket load of cash to scoop up good stocks. Don't chase stocks which price have ran away.
*
For the ones most likely to suffer a big drop (say >40%), selling them early will generate a bigger cash bucket for later use.

Some may recover later but why waste the x years for it just to break even?

cry.gif vmad.gif bangwall.gif
Ramjade
post Oct 3 2018, 10:35 AM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Oct 3 2018, 09:59 AM)
For the ones most likely to suffer a big drop (say >40%), selling them early will generate a bigger cash bucket for later use.

Some may recover later but why waste the x years for it just to break even?

cry.gif  vmad.gif  bangwall.gif
*
For me very simple. I see things expensive, I won't buy. I will just seat on cash and let my own stocks continue generating dividends.
markedestiny
post Oct 3 2018, 02:11 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Oct 2 2018, 06:16 PM)
I know what you mean. Good to have some people in the same line of looking ahead. Ha.

Mind sharing which construction companies you have and are not doing well due to ECRL or HSR? PM me the name. Curious to know.

If now it is not doing well, with recession, it will do even worse. Like I have said many times, I do not mean to add fuel to the fire (tiny little smoke at the moment?). Ha.
*
You might have read about my perspective on investing in p2p notes related to construction industry as whole in P2P thread. As such, I am not keen on construction related stocks in general. Maybe you mistaken me with others who shared about the construction stocks.

Generally I avoid any cyclical stocks if I buy and hold for invest, unless I do short term trading.



markedestiny
post Oct 3 2018, 02:36 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Oct 3 2018, 09:59 AM)
For the ones most likely to suffer a big drop (say >40%), selling them early will generate a bigger cash bucket for later use.

Some may recover later but why waste the x years for it just to break even?

cry.gif  vmad.gif  bangwall.gif
*
Let's see how much the market drops for S&P 500 since post-world war II.

The last recession 2007 - a whopping 57% drop.

Source: Moon Capital Management


Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image
icemanfx
post Oct 3 2018, 02:53 PM

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Nothing goes up forever or non stop, stock market will crash eventually and often earlier than most expected. Few if any could predict when and how market will crash.

If one liquidate early may miss out further gain but can consider this "lost gain" as insurance premium.

Given amount debts piled up by many corporate and gomen, next financial crisis is likely triggered by bonds default and elevated bank interest rate.

This post has been edited by icemanfx: Oct 3 2018, 02:54 PM
[Ancient]-XinG-
post Oct 8 2018, 11:39 PM

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so, today CN market down and so far the Oct have been not really good.

all the emerging markets are down at the mean time.

India drop a lot.

is the crash starting...

should have trim down all EQ 3 months back..
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post Oct 9 2018, 07:20 AM

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QUOTE(Ancient-XinG- @ Oct 8 2018, 11:39 PM)
so, today CN market down and so far the Oct have been not really good.

all the emerging markets are down at the mean time.

India drop a lot.

is the crash starting...

should have trim down all EQ 3 months back..
*
3 months later, you may be saying you should have trimmed down all in October biggrin.gif
[Ancient]-XinG-
post Oct 9 2018, 09:22 AM

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QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Oct 9 2018, 07:20 AM)
3 months later, you may be saying you should have trimmed down all in October  biggrin.gif
*
haha.

but definitely may18 is the turning point of my port. too bad. real bad.

now only I realize GFC will happen. no matter what. and now it's end of the cycle. with trump on throne, he will just try to boost US as far as possible. but it will not canceled out GFC.

we already see Asia Pacific on plateau.... I suppose it will not having bull run again. but bear.
buncho89
post Oct 9 2018, 10:02 AM

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yea May18 was when my port went to holland...lol
Showtime747
post Oct 9 2018, 10:05 AM

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QUOTE(Ancient-XinG- @ Oct 9 2018, 09:22 AM)
haha.

but definitely may18 is the turning point of my port. too bad. real bad.

now only I realize GFC will happen. no matter what. and now it's end of the cycle. with trump on throne, he will just try to boost US as far as possible. but it will not canceled out GFC.

we already see Asia Pacific on plateau.... I suppose it will not having bull run again. but bear.
*
2 strategies :

1. Sell everything, take the cash put in something very safe like FD. But return is low. Downside is what if no correction ? Lose out on dividends and low entry price (ie. expensive to buy back later)

2. Expect the correction, hold on to the portfolio for a few years for it to recover. Still receive dividends. Dividends from eg Reits are still better than FD. Upside is if no correction, return is much higher than money in FD. And entry price is preserved (ie. capital gain).

It is a difficult decision biggrin.gif
tehoice
post Oct 9 2018, 10:25 AM

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QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Oct 9 2018, 10:05 AM)
2 strategies :

1. Sell everything, take the cash put in something very safe like FD. But return is low. Downside is what if no correction ? Lose out on dividends and low entry price (ie. expensive to buy back later)

2. Expect the correction, hold on to the portfolio for a few years for it to recover. Still receive dividends. Dividends from eg Reits are still better than FD. Upside is if no correction, return is much higher than money in FD. And entry price is preserved (ie. capital gain).

It is a difficult decision  biggrin.gif
*
i think striking a balance between your own portfolio is important,

fixed income position xx%
REIT portfolio xx%
higher risk stocks xx%
your cash position xx%

total 100%.

but you may lower your stocks positions and place more into cash, that way you are able to hedge against whatever correction, but no one can predict 100% accurately right.
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post Oct 9 2018, 10:26 AM

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QUOTE(markedestiny @ Oct 3 2018, 02:36 PM)
Let's see how much the market drops for S&P 500 since post-world war II. 

The last recession 2007 -  a whopping 57% drop.

Source: Moon Capital Management
*
On average a drop of 20-30% during downturn is "normal", considered that the market has been going up almost non-drop for the last 10 years or so (for US market).

2007 is "whooping" event, that generally may only occur once of twice in one's investment life time.

Even with such history of "plunging", S&P still chunk out handsome gain over the long term, it just indicated long term investment works, provided one invested in right stocks and discipline throughout.

[Ancient]-XinG-
post Oct 9 2018, 10:27 AM

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QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Oct 9 2018, 10:05 AM)
2 strategies :

1. Sell everything, take the cash put in something very safe like FD. But return is low. Downside is what if no correction ? Lose out on dividends and low entry price (ie. expensive to buy back later)

2. Expect the correction, hold on to the portfolio for a few years for it to recover. Still receive dividends. Dividends from eg Reits are still better than FD. Upside is if no correction, return is much higher than money in FD. And entry price is preserved (ie. capital gain).

It is a difficult decision  biggrin.gif
*
indeed hahahaahah.

you apa macham? decided to stand outside the ring till when haha. you exit very early worr 2017 end?
Showtime747
post Oct 9 2018, 11:09 AM

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QUOTE(tehoice @ Oct 9 2018, 10:25 AM)
i think striking a balance between your own portfolio is important,

fixed income position xx%
REIT portfolio xx%
higher risk stocks xx%
your cash position xx%

total 100%.

but you may lower your stocks positions and place more into cash, that way you are able to hedge against whatever correction, but no one can predict 100% accurately right.
*
Yes, third strategy middle of the road is a balanced strategy thumbup.gif
Showtime747
post Oct 9 2018, 11:14 AM

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QUOTE(Ancient-XinG- @ Oct 9 2018, 10:27 AM)
indeed hahahaahah.

you apa macham? decided to stand outside the ring till when haha. you exit very early worr 2017 end?
*
Me strategy #1 sweat.gif

Exited mid 2017. That time put in 15-24 months maturity and overseas property. Some starting to mature and still reinvesting back to safe products....

Because the older I get, the smaller my LP laugh.gif
TSplumberly
post Oct 9 2018, 11:48 AM

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My 2 cents + rationale on my look ahead on this topic using one share in the last crash as example ....

Scene 1 - the ugly (damn ugly!!!)
Attached Image
What to do?
I don't want to see my asset loosing value like that!

Scene 2 - the pretty (too good to be true, alias mission impossible)
Attached Image
Cannot be that lucky to time it at the highest and at the lowest!
So what to do?

Scene 3 (later)
.....


History will not repeat exactly but it tends to follow ...

P/S No share split or share bonus during that period in my last check. I excluded dividends to simply the calculations.

PP/S I used $100,000 as illustration to highlight the impact. Not that I have that amount. Ha.

This post has been edited by plumberly: Oct 9 2018, 12:17 PM
[Ancient]-XinG-
post Oct 9 2018, 12:33 PM

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QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Oct 9 2018, 11:14 AM)
Me strategy #1  sweat.gif

Exited mid 2017. That time put in 15-24 months maturity and overseas property. Some starting to mature and still reinvesting back to safe products....

Because the older I get, the smaller my LP  laugh.gif
*
Good move I must say.
I now also plan to trim down all eq. Just close 1 eye. 10 eq to 90 bond fund.

QUOTE(plumberly @ Oct 9 2018, 11:48 AM)
My 2 cents + rationale on my look ahead on this topic using one share in the last crash as example ....

Scene 1 - the ugly (damn ugly!!!)
Attached Image
What to do?
I don't want to see my asset loosing value like that!

Scene 2 - the pretty (too good to be true, alias mission impossible)
Attached Image
Cannot be that lucky to time it at the highest and at the lowest!
So what to do?

Scene 3 (later)
.....
History will not repeat exactly but it tends to follow ...

P/S No share split or share bonus during that period in my last check. I excluded dividends to simply the calculations.

PP/S  I used $100,000 as illustration to highlight the impact. Not that I have that amount. Ha.
*
No really possible to time. As we can see on the UT thread. Whn the market started to volatile, many people started to buy when the price drop 2%. But end up M-O-M the price drop and people still thin, that is discount and buy it. End up? Cathced the falling knife. Now market bottom no where to be seen.

Next up to look up for prop bubble. In previous crash, always strong related with props. Aiyo, I so tired of this.

Crash just let it crash la. Walao. Look at the graph I also headache. Plateau don't know until when.
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post Oct 9 2018, 12:56 PM

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QUOTE(Ancient-XinG- @ Oct 9 2018, 12:33 PM)


Next up to look up for prop bubble. In previous crash, always strong related with props. Aiyo, I so tired of this.

Crash just let it crash la. Walao. Look at the graph I also headache. Plateau don't know until when.
*
Instead of selling before the crash or at the highest price, what about shortly after the crash?

Let me finish my Scene 3 graph.

[Ancient]-XinG-
post Oct 9 2018, 01:06 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Oct 9 2018, 12:56 PM)
Instead of selling before the crash or at the highest price, what about shortly after the crash?

Let me finish my Scene 3 graph.
*
actually depend on how much you gain. If the crash is strong enough to cancelled out your gain..... that's bad...
markedestiny
post Oct 9 2018, 01:52 PM

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QUOTE(cherroy @ Oct 9 2018, 10:26 AM)
On average a drop of 20-30% during downturn is "normal", considered that the market has been going up almost non-drop for the last 10 years or so (for US market).

2007 is "whooping" event, that generally may only occur once of twice in one's investment life time.

Even with such history of "plunging", S&P still chunk out handsome gain over the long term, it just indicated long term investment works, provided one invested in right stocks and discipline throughout.
*
Yes, over long term in the long run, S&P can regain its loss but like Ramjade, I rather be in cash position than to stay invested and wait out/tied up during the the downturn rclxms.gif

This post has been edited by markedestiny: Oct 9 2018, 01:57 PM
markedestiny
post Oct 9 2018, 01:53 PM

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QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Oct 9 2018, 10:05 AM)
2 strategies :

1. Sell everything, take the cash put in something very safe like FD. But return is low. Downside is what if no correction ? Lose out on dividends and low entry price (ie. expensive to buy back later)

2. Expect the correction, hold on to the portfolio for a few years for it to recover. Still receive dividends. Dividends from eg Reits are still better than FD. Upside is if no correction, return is much higher than money in FD. And entry price is preserved (ie. capital gain).

It is a difficult decision  biggrin.gif
*
There's another strategy which I have mentioned earlier, sell 60% first to secure at least 60% of your holdings and for the balance 40%, assess the market situation from time to time.
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post Oct 9 2018, 01:56 PM

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put money in FD is the worst choice. take the money and wait for the durian drop better.
markedestiny
post Oct 9 2018, 01:56 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Oct 9 2018, 12:56 PM)
Instead of selling before the crash or at the highest price, what about shortly after the crash?

Let me finish my Scene 3 graph.
*
If shortly after the market crashed, which is usually very sudden and abrupt, would you be fast enough to exit and cut loss by then? smile.gif

This post has been edited by markedestiny: Oct 9 2018, 01:57 PM
TSplumberly
post Oct 9 2018, 02:08 PM

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QUOTE(markedestiny @ Oct 9 2018, 01:56 PM)
If shortly after the market crashed, which is usually very sudden and abrupt, would you be fast enough to exit and cut loss  by then?  smile.gif
*
Best thing to do is to look at the companies you have invested, see how fast they responded to past crisis. It will not be perfect science but that should be a good guide on how fast each responded to crisis.

Dont time it down to the day or cent.

Also, use 2-3 other parameters to help in gauging whether something is going wrong globally (eg SP 500, copper price, KLCI).

Cheerio.


markedestiny
post Oct 9 2018, 02:15 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Oct 9 2018, 02:08 PM)
Best thing to do is to look at the companies you have invested, see how fast they responded to past crisis. It will not be perfect science but that should be a good guide on how fast each responded to crisis.

Dont time it down to the day or cent.

Also, use 2-3 other parameters to help in gauging whether something is going wrong globally (eg SP 500, copper price, KLCI).

Cheerio.
*
I don't hold a lot of shares as I was only starting out recently, so it is easier for me to come to decision to exit from the market in anticipation of crash. Once sold, I don't want to regret the decision, there's always another day to buy back in future (after market recovery, of course) biggrin.gif
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post Oct 9 2018, 04:34 PM

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Attached Image

Compromise between sell highest buy lowest (scene 2) and taking the full impact (scene 1).

Best is explore whether you can apply this idea on the shares you have bought. Some are rather non cyclical and this idea is of no use.

In the mist of bad economy, when to sell, when to sell, when to sell?

Maybe use Bollinger, RSI etc together to guide you. Don't use the preset Bollinger, RSI etc settings for all your companies. Need to play around with the settings for each company so that they will show you what you want to see. Ha.

May the LUCK be with you!

And me TOO!

biggrin.gif rclxms.gif rclxm9.gif thumbup.gif whistling.gif thumbsup.gif


SUSGenY
post Oct 9 2018, 06:58 PM

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My bold prediction is that this is a major (and particularly nasty and long) correction. Once the trade war crap settles, the bull will return and will continue for some time.

China and HK markets (and some of their blue chips) already down 20-30%. Some of the smalls and mid caps already down 50%.
icemanfx
post Oct 10 2018, 08:06 AM

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Historically, price crashed from bull run or price bubble. What is bubble? Do we have a bubble on hand? Is the stock market overpriced? Is current profits growth sustainable? How will fed rate rise impact stock market? What will likely trigger the crash? Tsla? Some stocks price are currently over 10% lower than peak. Will they drop more? Has the market priced in trade war rout, fed rate rise?

This post has been edited by icemanfx: Oct 10 2018, 10:18 AM
markedestiny
post Oct 12 2018, 09:47 AM

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Mini meltdown in the US stocks since Wednesday, is this the start to bigger crash or just another 'traditional' black october occurence...any thoughts?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/201...nd=premium-asia
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post Oct 12 2018, 04:35 PM

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QUOTE(markedestiny @ Oct 12 2018, 09:47 AM)
Mini meltdown in the US stocks since Wednesday, is this the start to bigger crash or just another 'traditional' black october occurence...any thoughts?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/201...nd=premium-asia
*
Truth is nobody knows, those who believe this is just a correction would have collected yesterday and tell you to do the same in hope that price can be pushed higher, those who believe a major crash is coming would tell you to save your bullets in hope that price can drop further for them to collect at a bargain
icemanfx
post Oct 12 2018, 06:09 PM

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QUOTE(Fortezan @ Oct 12 2018, 04:35 PM)
Truth is nobody knows, those who believe this is just a correction would have collected yesterday and tell you to do the same in hope that price can be pushed higher, those who believe a major crash is coming would tell you to save your bullets in hope that price can drop further for them to collect at a bargain
*
The market is on random walk in the short term.

enkil
post Oct 12 2018, 06:43 PM

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scary market
[Ancient]-XinG-
post Oct 12 2018, 07:08 PM

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QUOTE(markedestiny @ Oct 12 2018, 09:47 AM)
Mini meltdown in the US stocks since Wednesday, is this the start to bigger crash or just another 'traditional' black october occurence...any thoughts?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/201...nd=premium-asia
*
QUOTE(Fortezan @ Oct 12 2018, 04:35 PM)
Truth is nobody knows, those who believe this is just a correction would have collected yesterday and tell you to do the same in hope that price can be pushed higher, those who believe a major crash is coming would tell you to save your bullets in hope that price can drop further for them to collect at a bargain
*
no idea... but I am rally tired of this. Crash just crash la...

Still remember Last FEB? Almost same and rebound.

Just hope this time around dead cat bounce and the true correction can go on for Q4.
icemanfx
post Oct 12 2018, 11:51 PM

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QUOTE(Ancient-XinG- @ Oct 12 2018, 07:08 PM)
no idea... but I am rally tired of this. Crash just crash la...

Still remember Last FEB? Almost same and rebound.

Just hope this time around dead cat bounce and the true correction can go on for Q4.
*
What fundamental has changed since 1, 3 or 12 months ago?

Hansel
post Oct 17 2018, 01:05 PM

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QUOTE(icemanfx @ Oct 12 2018, 11:51 PM)
What fundamental has changed since 1, 3 or 12 months ago?
*
Good thread here,....

To reply to Iceman in the above question,...

1) Fed rates have moved higher.
2) Trump Tariffs onto China have become more more.

Opinions ??
icemanfx
post Oct 17 2018, 01:21 PM

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QUOTE(Hansel @ Oct 17 2018, 01:05 PM)
Good thread here,....

To reply to Iceman in the above question,...

1) Fed rates have moved higher.
2) Trump Tariffs onto China have become more more.

Opinions ??
*
The impact? How much income is trimmed?
learn2earn8
post Oct 22 2018, 04:44 PM

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there are those with good FA and their TA at support level, any breakout would depends on earnings results

Attached Image Attached Image

https://www.investors.com/market-trend/stoc...le-50-day-line/

Dow Jones Futures: More Leaders Break Support In Stock Market Correction

ED CARSON11:54 PM ET

Dow Jones futures rose slightly Sunday night, along with S&P 500 futures and Nasdaq futures. It's still a stock market correction. The major averages closed last week little changed — the Dow Jones rose, the S&P 500 index was virtually flat and the Nasdaq composite edged lower — after promising gains early in the week. Worse, more growth stocks fell below key support areas. Apple (AAPL), Boeing (BA), Advanced Micro Devices (AMD), Activision Blizzard (ATVI), Match Group (MTCH), Ross Stores (ROST) and TJX Cos. (TJX) all fell below their 50-day lines by Friday's close.

The 50-day moving average is a key technical level. Top stocks often find support here, as mutual funds and other big investors step in to buy shares. While it's OK for a leading stock to dip below the 50-day line for a short span, you want to see it rebound soon. But in a stock market correction, most tickers will struggle, with growth names often falling further.

Stock Market Correction Is A Time To Watch
The lesson is clear. It is very hard to make money in a stock market correction, even during a rally attempt. During a stock market correction, build your watchlists. Wait until a follow-through day confirms a rally attempt. Watch for leading stocks, some of which should be on your watchlists, break out into buy zones.

Attached Image Attached Image

Boeing stock and TJX stock had avoided closing below their 50-day lines until Friday. Boeing, TJX, Ross stock and Apple stock, which nudged higher Friday, aren't far below that are. But AMD stock had held near its 50-day for several sessions, before crashing 11% Friday. Match stock skidded 6.4% Friday. Activision stock tumbled through its 50-day and 200-day lines on Thursday, then kept falling Friday.

Mind you, these are growth stocks that had been generally holding up better than most of their peers. Their relative strength lines, which track a stock's performance vs. the S&P 500 index, are near record highs, aside from Activision.

Most 95+ Composite Rating Stocks Below 50-Day Line
All of those stocks, except for Activision, have IBD Composite Ratings of 95 or better. Apple stock and AMD stock boast best-possible 99 Composite Ratings. The Composite Rating combines several IBD proprietary ratings into a single score. All-time stock winners often have Composite Ratings of at least 95 near the start of their big runs.

Looking ahead to the coming week, there are 28 stocks with 95-plus Composite Ratings reporting earnings. They include Boeing stock and AMD stock, along with Amazon (AMZN), Centene (CNC), Visa (V), Vertex Pharmaceuticals (VRTX), WWE (WWE) and many more. But just four are currently above their 50-day moving averages: iQvia (IQV), O'Reilly Automotive (ORLY), Aon (AOC) and Alexion Pharmaceuticals (ALXN).

Dow Jones Futures Today
Dow Jones futures rose less than 0.1% vs. fair value. S&P 500 futures advanced 0.1%. Nasdaq 100 futures climbed 0.25% vs. fair value. Remember that Dow futures, Apple stock and other overnight action don't necessarily translate in actual trading in the next regular session.

That's been especially true during the stock market correction, with the major averages whipsawing during regular trading and sometimes overnight.

China's Shanghai composite jumped 4.2% intraday.

Attached Image Attached Image
ChAOoz
post Oct 26 2018, 12:27 PM

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Ray Dalio market cycle template is pretty good to understand which economic cycles we are in at the moment.

As nobody can really timed exactly a market crash, you can try to be defensive while still having money on the table by buying into stable dividend yielding stocks or relatively medium risk bonds or FD.

China still has pretty big risk, and it's future deleveraging may pull all other asian country into it's mix.
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post Oct 26 2018, 12:51 PM

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QUOTE(ChAOoz @ Oct 26 2018, 12:27 PM)
Ray Dalio market cycle template is pretty good to understand which economic cycles we are in at the moment.

As nobody can really timed exactly a market crash, you can try to be defensive while still having money on the table by buying into stable dividend yielding stocks or relatively medium risk bonds or FD.

China still has pretty big risk, and it's future deleveraging may pull all other asian country into it's mix.
*
Thanks.

Can get a free ebook from him too! Ha.
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post Oct 27 2018, 08:55 AM

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I'll ride it out with my current stock and REIT holdings. But I have stopped buying since last month, except for the Astrea IV PE Bond Funds.
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post Oct 29 2018, 12:31 PM

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QUOTE(Hansel @ Oct 27 2018, 08:55 AM)
I'll ride it out with my current stock and REIT holdings. But I have stopped buying since last month, except for the Astrea IV PE Bond Funds.
*
For my learning, why ride it out strategy?

Not that cyclic, will drop by only x%, takes only y years to recover, hard to get in later, losses too small, extra expenses in selling and buying, etc etc?

Thanks.
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post Oct 29 2018, 12:57 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Oct 29 2018, 12:31 PM)
For my learning, why ride it out strategy?

Not that cyclic, will drop by only x%, takes only y years to recover, hard to get in later, losses too small, extra expenses in selling and buying, etc etc?

Thanks.
*
You can ride it out if you buy low enough. Provide you some comfort level when stocks are falling as you are still in the green.

Ride it out as you continue to earn dividends regardless of the market. Dividend reduced but you still get paid.

That's my understanding of what he meant.
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post Oct 29 2018, 01:56 PM

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QUOTE(Ramjade @ Oct 29 2018, 12:57 PM)
You can ride it out if you buy low enough. Provide you some comfort level when stocks are falling as you are still in the green.

Ride it out as you continue to earn dividends regardless of the market. Dividend reduced but you still get paid.

That's my understanding of what he meant.
*
Well,... from my actions in the above, I would have destroyed my profits too,... Yeah, I would still be in the green,... but lots of "green $$$' has been wiped out by the mkt meltdown. If I had sold earlier, I would have reaped more profits,... ie, would have run away with more profits before the stock prices dropped.

Yeah, the consolation is in the continuous dividend received (provided it is not stopped).

And if we have selected good companies to ride over with, then the dpu slump, if any,... would be minimal only.
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post Oct 29 2018, 02:54 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Oct 29 2018, 12:31 PM)
For my learning, why ride it out strategy?

Not that cyclic, will drop by only x%, takes only y years to recover, hard to get in later, losses too small, extra expenses in selling and buying, etc etc?

Thanks.
*
Hi bro,

Many thoughts have run through my mind when this meltdown started, and what I should do to prepare for this. The best reasons I could give for my choice of approach would be :-

1) I don't need the money, hence, I can still afford to eave them 'inside', ie invested.

2) I love the cashflow, which would supply me more bullets to take advantage of the dipped prices later.

3) I continue to believe in my counters.

Having 'declared' the above, I have to say too that I have decided to divest Keppel Corporation for now, at a profit.... The yield given by KepCorp against my Buy Price is too low, and I think the dps will drop in the coming year, FY19....

Hence, I have taken profit for Keppel Corp..
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post Oct 29 2018, 03:29 PM

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Thanks. See below.


QUOTE(Hansel @ Oct 29 2018, 02:54 PM)
Hi bro,

Many thoughts have run through my mind when this meltdown started, and what I should do to prepare for this. The best reasons I could give for my choice of approach would be :-

1) I don't need the money, hence, I can still afford to eave them 'inside', ie invested.
*** I also don't need that money but I do not want to see the value dropping by half like it happened in 2008 recession. So prefer to take it out to and park it in FD etc though the return will be lower. Growing at a slower rate is preferred than loosing half its value.

2) I love the cashflow, which would supply me more bullets to take advantage of the dipped prices later.
*** I assume you meant the dividends from that shares. But won't the dividend be less during recession? Double jeopardy - reduced share price and reduced dividend?
*** If you sell before the crash, won't you have more bullets for your safari hunting after the crash?  Ya ya, only if the crash happens!


3) I continue to believe in my counters.
*** You must have done a lot of homework in that shares to have such faith in them! Ha. But companies are like any other things, they can change, some for the better and some for the worse.

Having 'declared' the above, I have to say too that I have decided to divest Keppel Corporation for now, at a profit.... The yield given by KepCorp against my Buy Price is too low, and I think the dps will drop in the coming year, FY19....

Hence, I have taken profit for Keppel Corp..
*
Ramjade
post Oct 29 2018, 04:00 PM

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I will share some
*** I also don't need that money but I do not want to see the value dropping by half like it happened in 2008 recession. So prefer to take it out to and park it in FD etc though the return will be lower. Growing at a slower rate is preferred than loosing half its value.
A: I welcome correction as it allows me to pick good stocks at good price. That's why I kena bash in FSM thread as I was celebrating the recent down time. If you cannot tahan seeing the value dropping, have to go for super save investment
1) FD (totally no)
2) ASNB FP
3) EPF
With this 3, you won't get heartsick no matter what happen to the market. Sometimes not getting heart sick is better. Take your time to keep cash and equivalent when things are expensive. Don't get FOMO.

Losing half it's value and not selling won't incur anything. Only if you use margin or someone force you to sell then yeah you have lock in your losses. An investor is his worst enemy.

*** I assume you meant the dividends from that shares. But won't the dividend be less during recession? Double jeopardy - reduced share price and reduced dividend?
*** If you sell before the crash, won't you have more bullets for your safari hunting after the crash? Ya ya, only if the crash happens!
A: Dividends may/may not drop depending on recession. Why do I say that? Solid companies like Nestlé, TnB won't go away in a recession. Rain or shine, people still need to eat, use electricity. That's defensive investing. If a company is only paying out <50% of the cash, dividends are more ear less assured. Just won't grow. Price drop allows me to accumulate more shares at cheap price to get more dividends.

You won't know when crash will come. You can only prepare for it by keeping cash and buying at low price. So if a crash comes along, you are prepared with cash. If you had FOMO and give chase, then you can only seat and watch sadly. Having a boatload of cash can be a good thing in times of crash (remember I am not saying bucketliad but boatload) That's why I keep cash when there's nothing to buy. So what kena eat by inflation? Inflation is slower than what I can pick up in a crash.

*** You must have done a lot of homework in that shares to have such faith in them! Ha. But companies are like any other things, they can change, some for the better and some for the worse.
A: you need to analyse your companies and make sure they can continue paying you.

Moral of my story
1. Keep cash when market is expensive. Don't FOMO. Is worth keeping cars.
2. Don't be afraid of crash. Welcome with open arms. S
3. Invest in good companies with payout of say 40-70% dividends is one criteria.
4. Invest in companies with increasing DPU
5. Invest in companies which manage to profit during 2008-2009. For those companies are more or less survivors
6. Invest in defensive companies.
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post Oct 29 2018, 04:37 PM

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the time is RIPE for crashing. sai lang all later boss.
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post Oct 29 2018, 07:07 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Oct 29 2018, 03:29 PM)
Thanks. See below.
*
QUOTE(Ramjade @ Oct 29 2018, 04:00 PM)
I will share some
*** I also don't need that money but I do not want to see the value dropping by half like it happened in 2008 recession. So prefer to take it out to and park it in FD etc though the return will be lower. Growing at a slower rate is preferred than loosing half its value.
A: I welcome correction as it allows me to pick good stocks at good price. That's why I kena bash in FSM thread as I was celebrating the recent down time. If you cannot tahan seeing the value dropping,  have to go for super save investment
1) FD (totally no)
2) ASNB FP
3) EPF
With this 3,  you won't get heartsick no matter what happen to the market. Sometimes not getting heart sick is better. Take your time to keep cash and equivalent when things are expensive. Don't get FOMO.

Losing half it's value and not selling won't incur anything. Only if you use margin or someone force you to sell then yeah you have lock in your losses. An investor is his worst enemy.

*** I assume you meant the dividends from that shares. But won't the dividend be less during recession? Double jeopardy - reduced share price and reduced dividend?
*** If you sell before the crash, won't you have more bullets for your safari hunting after the crash?  Ya ya, only if the crash happens!
A: Dividends may/may not drop depending on recession. Why do I say that? Solid companies like Nestlé,  TnB won't go away in a recession. Rain or shine, people still need to eat, use electricity. That's defensive investing. If a company is only paying out <50% of the cash,  dividends are more ear less assured. Just won't grow. Price drop allows me to accumulate more shares at cheap price to get more dividends.

You won't know when crash will come. You can only prepare for it by keeping cash and buying at low price. So if a crash comes along, you are prepared with cash. If you had FOMO and give chase,  then you can only seat and watch sadly. Having a boatload of cash can be a good thing in times of crash (remember I am not saying bucketliad but boatload)  That's why I keep cash when there's nothing to buy. So what kena eat by inflation? Inflation is slower than what I can pick up in a crash.

*** You must have done a lot of homework in that shares to have such faith in them! Ha. But companies are like any other things, they can change, some for the better and some for the worse.
A: you need to analyse your companies and make sure they can continue paying you.

Moral of my story
1. Keep cash when market is expensive. Don't FOMO. Is worth keeping cars.
2. Don't be afraid of crash. Welcome with open arms. S
3. Invest in good companies with payout of say 40-70% dividends is one criteria.
4. Invest in companies with increasing DPU
5. Invest in companies which manage to profit during 2008-2009. For those companies are more or less survivors
6. Invest in defensive companies.
*
Further opinions,....

1) "*** I also don't need that money but I do not want to see the value dropping by half like it happened in 2008 recession. So prefer to take it out to and park it in FD etc though the return will be lower. Growing at a slower rate is preferred than loosing half its value."

Well,... if the fundamentals do not change and the counter is able to survive the meltdown / recession, it will regain its glory and go back up to its previous high again, or perhaps even higher. In the meantime, I will just continue to earn the dividend, and yeah, I may need to tolerate some dips in the dividend too. But if my holdings are large enough and my Average Price is low enough, the yield would be high enough to withstand any dpu reduction. The amount wouldbe big enough for my to build my warchest.

The moment you sell, you lose many of the above characteristics when you try to buyback again in future.


2) "*** I assume you meant the dividends from that shares. But won't the dividend be less during recession? Double jeopardy - reduced share price and reduced dividend?
*** If you sell before the crash, won't you have more bullets for your safari hunting after the crash? Ya ya, only if the crash happens!"

Perhaps,... yeah, may need to tolerate some dpu dips, yeah,..but,.. please see my above explanations above size of holdings and level of Average Price.

3) "*** You must have done a lot of homework in that shares to have such faith in them! Ha. But companies are like any other things, they can change, some for the better and some for the worse."

This is my risk then,... and this is where skils of investing, for eg diversification comes into play.

Finally,... I always believed one should stay invested, but that's me,... So, rain or shine, I will find an instrument to go into throughout the different cycles of the mkt. I will not hold pure cash,....

I regard Foreign Currency FDs and PE Bond Funds as investments too.
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post Nov 1 2018, 11:29 AM

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QUOTE(Ramjade @ Oct 29 2018, 04:00 PM)

Losing half it's value and not selling won't incur anything. Only if you use margin or someone force you to sell then yeah you have lock in your losses. An investor is his worst enemy.

*
*** It goes down by half, let it recovers after x years. I still cannot understand why is that a good strategy. Get out early and park the money somewhere first. If that company is really good, then get in again on recovery. Maybe it is easy to say but hard to do. I will be doing that soon (minus the buying on recovery). Ha.

QUOTE(Hansel @ Oct 29 2018, 07:07 PM)

[color=red]Well,... if the fundamentals do not change and the counter is able to survive the meltdown / recession, it will regain its glory and go back up to its previous high again, or perhaps even higher. In the meantime,

*
*** See my comment above.
Ramjade
post Nov 1 2018, 12:56 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Nov 1 2018, 11:29 AM)
***  It goes down by half, let it recovers after x years. I still cannot understand why is that a good strategy. Get out early and park the money somewhere first. If that company is really good, then get in again on recovery. Maybe it is easy to say but hard to do. I will be doing that soon (minus the buying on recovery). Ha.
*** See my comment above.
*
How sure are you can buy back at the bottom? Will the price comes back to original price? Possible but unlikely. Some stocks never come back to their original price.
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post Nov 1 2018, 01:02 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Nov 1 2018, 11:29 AM)
***  It goes down by half, let it recovers after x years. I still cannot understand why is that a good strategy. Get out early and park the money somewhere first. If that company is really good, then get in again on recovery. Maybe it is easy to say but hard to do. I will be doing that soon (minus the buying on recovery). Ha.
*
What you're doing is to avoid risk. But of course, high risk, high return. Just before TOPGLOV announced their 1:1 bonus issue, their share price dipped for no reason (You can view historical prices). Probably investors were afraid. If you were one of those who sold, you would have missed out the bonus issue and a potential 10% capital gain.
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post Nov 1 2018, 01:36 PM

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QUOTE(Ramjade @ Nov 1 2018, 12:56 PM)
How sure are you can buy back at the bottom? Will the price comes back to original price? Possible but unlikely. Some stocks never come back to their original price.
*
Not aiming to sell highest and buy lowest. See my graph earlier - case 3 the realistic.
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QUOTE(Yggdrasil @ Nov 1 2018, 01:02 PM)
What you're doing is to avoid risk. But of course, high risk, high return. Just before TOPGLOV announced their 1:1 bonus issue, their share price dipped for no reason (You can view historical prices). Probably investors were afraid. If you were one of those who sold, you would have missed out the bonus issue and a potential 10% capital gain.
*
The bonus loss there is secondary to the main aim of avoid the big dip due to recession.

Not looking at the day to day trading here but looking from a distance at the stormy weather now for the coming HURRICANE/CYCLONE/TYPHOON/PERFECT STORM/xxx. Ha.
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post Nov 1 2018, 01:42 PM

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Your timing may be right when you cleared your stock. But it may not be right when come the time to collect. To time correctly both SELL & BUY is a difficult task that most will failed.
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post Nov 1 2018, 04:14 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Nov 1 2018, 11:29 AM)
***  It goes down by half, let it recovers after x years. I still cannot understand why is that a good strategy. Get out early and park the money somewhere first. If that company is really good, then get in again on recovery. Maybe it is easy to say but hard to do. I will be doing that soon (minus the buying on recovery). Ha.
*** See my comment above.
*
After you sold, you would not be able to collect dividends anymore, but of course, you may say the dividend may be totally wiped-out by the recession. Then here, we have to analyse our holdings carefully, REITs and shares,...

Secondly,... hehe, I have another saying, to time the mkt once is very difficult, but to time it twice ?? You have to be right TWO TIMES if you are to sell now and buyback later. S_Kalan said this too,..... biggrin.gif biggrin.gif
icemanfx
post Nov 2 2018, 02:53 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Nov 1 2018, 01:42 PM)
The bonus loss there is secondary to the main aim of avoid the big dip due to recession.

Not looking at the day to day trading here but looking from a distance at the stormy weather now for the coming HURRICANE/CYCLONE/TYPHOON/PERFECT STORM/xxx. Ha.
*
The market is on random walk in the short run.

What are economical/financial unsustainable that will cause hurricane/perfect storm to the market?

Recent market rout was the hurricane predicted or just uneventful/minor thunder storm?

This post has been edited by icemanfx: Nov 2 2018, 04:25 PM
TSplumberly
post Nov 4 2018, 07:31 PM

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QUOTE(Singh_Kalan @ Nov 1 2018, 01:42 PM)
Your timing may be right when you cleared your stock.  But it may not be right when come the time to collect.  To time correctly both SELL & BUY is a difficult task that most will failed.
*
QUOTE(Hansel @ Nov 1 2018, 04:14 PM)
Secondly,... hehe, I have another saying, to time the mkt once is very difficult, but to time it twice ?? You have to be right TWO TIMES if you are to sell now and buyback later. S_Kalan said this too,..... biggrin.gif  biggrin.gif
*
I really failed in my communication. Not trying to time it down to the highest and lowest. See modified Scene 3. Added in the bold dash lines to indicate the windows available.

Not looking at the highest & lowest days. The time available to sell and buy were not just weeks window but months. Yes, this time round, it may not be a carbon copy. But I believe the general pattern characteristics will be there.

Attached Image
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post Nov 4 2018, 07:45 PM

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QUOTE(icemanfx @ Nov 2 2018, 02:53 PM)
The market is on random walk in the short run.

What are economical/financial unsustainable that will cause hurricane/perfect storm to the market?

Recent market rout was the hurricane predicted or just uneventful/minor thunder storm?
*
A major war (USA & China, USA & Iran etc)?

Interesting video to watch about rising power against the ruling power, last 12 wars resulted from this conflict. Catalysed by a third power. Now USA & China with N Korea as the catalyst?

https://www.ted.com/talks/graham_allison_is...ble?language=en

My gut feel is the excessive QE in the USA etc for many years will take its toll in the coming recession.

Many things are not right in the economy now and sitting on a tight rope.

My 2 cents.

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post Nov 4 2018, 09:54 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Nov 4 2018, 07:31 PM)
I really failed in my communication. Not trying to time it down to the highest and lowest. See modified Scene 3. Added in the bold dash lines to indicate the windows available.

Not looking at the highest & lowest days. The time available to sell and buy were not just weeks window but months. Yes, this time round, it may not be a carbon copy. But I believe the general pattern characteristics will be there.

Attached Image
*
Perhaps we have our faults too in reading your earlier posting as in days. Well,.. if you're talking abt narrowing down to mths of timing, your chances of success would :-

1) definitely be higher compared to against trying to time in terms of days and weeks.

2) still be low because the uptrend and downtrend may stretch in terms of many years !!
icemanfx
post Nov 21 2018, 05:44 PM

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Is recent stock rout consider crash?
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post Nov 21 2018, 06:08 PM

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QUOTE(icemanfx @ Nov 21 2018, 05:44 PM)
Is recent stock rout consider crash?
*
The best way to ascertain this is to define : what constitutes a CRASH ?

If an index drops 20% from a recent high - this constitutes a CORRECTION.

So, what is a crash ?
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post Nov 21 2018, 06:52 PM

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QUOTE(Hansel @ Nov 21 2018, 06:08 PM)
The best way to ascertain this is to define : what constitutes a CRASH ?

If an index drops 20% from a recent high - this constitutes a CORRECTION.

So, what is a crash ?
*
Stocks clearing before coming crash still necessary/relevant?

This post has been edited by icemanfx: Nov 22 2018, 12:03 AM
TSplumberly
post Nov 22 2018, 09:16 AM

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Thought I got the % all mixed up, thought 10% = correction, >20% = crash. So looked up the web to refresh my memory. See below.

Attached Image

One China's index is already in recession region. More to follow?
icemanfx
post Nov 22 2018, 10:51 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Nov 22 2018, 09:16 AM)
Thought I got the % all mixed up, thought 10% = correction, >20% = crash. So looked up the web to refresh my memory. See below.

Attached Image

One China's index is already in recession region. More to follow?
*
So stocks clearing before next crash is still relevant or too late?
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post Nov 23 2018, 08:49 AM

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QUOTE(icemanfx @ Nov 22 2018, 10:51 PM)
So stocks clearing before next crash is still relevant or too late?
*
Your answer is as good as any one's else. Up to individual, get out weeks earlier, months or even years earlier. devil.gif

My personal plan is to exit in the coming months. Waiting for one event.

Cheerio.




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post Nov 23 2018, 09:32 AM

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There are many individual stocks already crashed severely, typically O&G sector, a number of property stocks etc.
Easily plunged more than 20~50%.

Many property stocks are at bargain price, especially those without debt one, could easily a privatisation target.
There are 2 property stocks under privatisation proposal recently.
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post Nov 23 2018, 09:48 AM

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QUOTE(icemanfx @ Nov 21 2018, 06:52 PM)
Stocks clearing before coming crash still necessary/relevant?
*
Depends on your risk appetite

armadasaxon
post Nov 23 2018, 09:56 AM

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Better start clearing.
Global recession and trade war.
The person controlling is dumb clown .everyday waging war to maga only.

Results all not good also.
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post Nov 23 2018, 10:54 AM

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QUOTE(cherroy @ Nov 23 2018, 09:32 AM)
There are many individual stocks already crashed severely, typically O&G sector, a number of property stocks etc.
Easily plunged more than 20~50%.

Many property stocks are at bargain price, especially those without debt one, could easily a privatisation target.
There are 2 property stocks under privatisation proposal recently.
*
Thanks.

Maybe we saw the same report in the newspaper on developers' debt ratio and P/B and some on the graph left hand side are a bargain on paper. Tempting to buy those shares. But may be even better bargains later if recession is just months away. Then again, they maybe privatised soon.

I wait for too many things? Ha. Some important things and not everything.

Cheerio.

This post has been edited by plumberly: Nov 23 2018, 11:41 AM
icemanfx
post Nov 23 2018, 11:02 AM

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QUOTE(armadasaxon @ Nov 23 2018, 09:56 AM)
Better start clearing.
Global recession and trade war.
The person controlling is dumb clown .everyday waging war to maga only.

Results all not good also.
*
If Joe and Jane anticipate economic recession, almost certain it will occur earlier than expected.

w3sley
post Nov 23 2018, 01:26 PM

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QUOTE(icemanfx @ Nov 23 2018, 11:02 AM)
If Joe and Jane anticipate economic recession, almost certain it will occur earlier than expected.
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If so, how do the top 1% Investor function?
loss money but lesser percentage?
Does buy and hold valid in Malaysia market?dividend stocks?
icemanfx
post Nov 23 2018, 09:40 PM

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QUOTE(w3sley @ Nov 23 2018, 01:26 PM)
If so, how do the top 1% Investor function?
loss money but lesser percentage?
Does buy and hold valid in Malaysia market?dividend stocks?
*
Believe investors like Warren Buffett seldom trade. As for funds managers; unless there is a melt down, most funds managers don't liquidate all.

watabakiu
post Nov 24 2018, 10:32 AM

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No one can predict the future with absolute certainty, but here's throwing a thought. Say, Brexit deal concluded nicely in Mar19, and the trade war between China and USA eases, wouldn't that be what the market deemed as good i.e. and the stock prices would go up again?
TSplumberly
post Nov 24 2018, 06:18 PM

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Exploring on ETF now.

Saw this ....

Attached Image

Sharing here as, in my tunnel view, it is not painting an overall rosy picture on the economy. Not much green in there.


Krv23490
post Nov 25 2018, 10:03 AM

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QUOTE(watabakiu @ Nov 24 2018, 10:32 AM)
No one can predict the future with absolute certainty, but here's throwing a thought. Say, Brexit deal concluded nicely in Mar19, and the trade war between China and USA eases, wouldn't that be what the market deemed as good i.e. and the stock prices would go up again?
*
Yes! If everything happens as you said. low chance for that to happen though
Krv23490
post Nov 25 2018, 10:05 AM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Nov 24 2018, 06:18 PM)
Exploring on ETF now.

Saw this ....

Attached Image

Sharing here as, in my tunnel view, it is not painting an overall rosy picture on the economy. Not much green in there.
*
Why don't you load up on triple leveraged inverse etfs if you have such a bearish outlook 🐻.
TSplumberly
post Nov 25 2018, 10:08 AM

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QUOTE(Krv23490 @ Nov 25 2018, 10:05 AM)
Why don't you load up on triple leveraged inverse etfs if you have such a bearish outlook 🐻.
*
As a starter in ETF, better learn to stand, walk and then run. Still in the standing phase now. Ha.

Maybe decades later, inverse and leveraged ETF.

[Ancient]-XinG-
post Dec 3 2018, 08:10 AM

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alright.

US agree to stop the 0119 tariff.

so what now... has the recession actually came but we don't realize it?

or yet to come?

but for me. the recession must come. headache owh
Ramjade
post Dec 3 2018, 09:30 AM

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QUOTE(Ancient-XinG- @ Dec 3 2018, 08:10 AM)
alright.

US agree to stop the 0119 tariff.

so what now... has the recession actually came but we don't realize it?

or yet to come?

but for me. the recession must come. headache owh
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Nothing to be happy. 90 days je. Then expect china/asia Pacific to fall again
[Ancient]-XinG-
post Dec 3 2018, 11:15 AM

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QUOTE(Ramjade @ Dec 3 2018, 09:30 AM)
Nothing to be happy. 90 days je. Then expect china/asia Pacific to fall again
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knnnn.

this gonna be long shit.
TSplumberly
post Dec 10 2018, 04:31 PM

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A quick update ...

Just sold 99% of my share AA. Compared to 2 months ago, lugi now as the price has been on the downward trend.

Will sell share BB tomorrow.

Hope to get the money within a week (overseas shares).

The shares are oil and gas shares. With Opec reducing the daily production last Fri by 1.x million barrels a day, the price has gone up a bit. But feel that is just like putting a plaster on a much bigger problem underneath it. My own recession indicator for oil is already in danger level (healthy-warning-danger).

When I watched Bloomberg tv news, this one no good, that one no good, etc etc, that gave me an uneasy feeling.

But now, I can ...

SWAN

Sleeping Well At Night!

Ha.


DominicSin
post Dec 11 2018, 04:02 PM

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QUOTE(Ramjade @ Dec 3 2018, 09:30 AM)
Nothing to be happy. 90 days je. Then expect china/asia Pacific to fall again
*
I personally think that the trade war or brexit situation is just instilling panic to the public while the global economy slowly declining. Further agitation of these 2 situations will only worsen the decline, i do not expect the SEA or US economy to rebound once all these things have cooled down. just my two cents.

P.S i noob only, pls don't ranting.gif
TSplumberly
post Dec 22 2018, 12:21 PM

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It has been nearly 2 weeks now since I sold my shares. When I wanted to sell, compared to Oct evaluation, lugi was enough to get my dream camera Nikon Z6 and Yamaha digital piano for my wife. Tempted to hang on for the prices to recover. Luckily my original objective to get out before the crash stayed put and decided to proceed. The prices are still on the downward trend. So a little pat on my shoulder. Ha.

When I sold my shares a year or two before the 1998 crash, it was a lot easier. This time, harder with emotion playing devil in my head. Ha.

Now I don't get that worried when I read news about bad economy, especially on Trump, BREXIT, China-USA trade war, Nasdaq in bear market, etc. etc.

bruce.gif bruce.gif bruce.gif rclxms.gif rclxms.gif rclxms.gif
Lcclcc
post Dec 22 2018, 07:52 PM

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I am planning to make a portfolio adjustment as follow, which i think is
defensive but give flexibility on the agreesive option.

Sell one of my best property in Tier 1 City, China. Which will give me cash of around Ringgit 2.5M after loan settlement.

500k to settle current debt at Msia(which bring my msia debt to zero) and RM2M will make available.

To purchase through Auction/Lelong, this move is taking advantage of Cash Purchase, to aquired discounted value property (more on paper gain but believe the property price at quite bottom level and cant go too much further down.).

>Property Purchase at RM2M. Bank Valuation at RM3M.

The next move to make ready the bank financing through refinancing, so RM3M x 80%= RM2.4M.

Waiting for suitable oportunities when the more agreesive bear market.
1) Property: Klang Valley for easy management.
2) KLSE/Singapore/US Stocks (Waiting for Strong Bear)

To choose property that are friendly for AirBnB for 2 purposes:
a) more yield, lower purchase price, higher rental, targeting 8% - 10%
b) defensive, travel business will be defensive in bad economy.

Looking for second opinion or even crticism from wiser sifu. I am still considering and yet to make final decision. wish to listen to some second opinion.
Showtime747
post Dec 22 2018, 08:10 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Dec 22 2018, 12:21 PM)
It has been nearly 2 weeks now since I sold my shares. When I wanted to sell, compared to Oct evaluation, lugi was enough to get my dream camera Nikon Z6 and Yamaha digital piano for my wife. Tempted to hang on for the prices to recover. Luckily my original objective to get out before the crash stayed put and decided to proceed. The prices are still on the downward trend. So a little pat on my shoulder. Ha.

When I sold my shares a year or two before the 1998 crash, it was a lot easier. This time, harder with emotion playing devil in my head. Ha.

Now I don't get that worried when I read news about bad economy, especially on Trump, BREXIT, China-USA trade war, Nasdaq in bear market, etc. etc.

bruce.gif  bruce.gif  bruce.gif  rclxms.gif  rclxms.gif  rclxms.gif
*
Percentage dropped in KLCI for the period Aug-23 (when you started this thread) to Dec-7 (2 weeks ago when you sold your shares) is -7.20%

Let's say a person has a portfolio of RM200,000

If sell earlier on Aug-23 instead of Dec-7, the amount "saved" would be RM14,394

Ie. if sell on Aug-23, the amount "saved" should be enough to buy a Nikon Z6 + a Yamaha digital piano....
TSplumberly
post Dec 22 2018, 08:23 PM

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QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Dec 22 2018, 08:10 PM)
Percentage dropped in KLCI for the period Aug-23 (when you started this thread) to Dec-7 (2 weeks ago when you sold your shares) is  -7.20%

Let's say a person has a portfolio of RM200,000

If sell earlier on Aug-23 instead of Dec-7, the amount "saved" would be RM14,394

Ie. if sell on Aug-23, the amount "saved" should be enough to buy a Nikon Z6 + a Yamaha digital piano....
*
Very good try but mine is not KLCI shares. European shares.

The sales and transfers to my Msian ac were done within 3 days. Very smooth process though if it was within 1 day, I would gained a bit more, it was during the BREXIT vote week with share price and currency rate going against me. bangwall.gif ranting.gif
TSplumberly
post Dec 22 2018, 08:32 PM

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QUOTE(Lcclcc @ Dec 22 2018, 07:52 PM)
I am planning to make a portfolio adjustment as follow, which i think is
defensive but give flexibility on the agreesive option.

Sell one of my best property in Tier 1 City, China. Which will give me cash of around Ringgit 2.5M after loan settlement.

500k to settle current debt at Msia(which bring my msia debt to zero) and RM2M will make available.

To purchase through Auction/Lelong, this move is taking advantage of Cash Purchase, to aquired discounted value property (more on paper gain but believe the property price at quite bottom level and cant go too much further down.).

>Property Purchase at RM2M. Bank Valuation at RM3M.

The next move to make ready the bank financing through refinancing, so RM3M x 80%= RM2.4M.

Waiting for suitable oportunities when the more agreesive bear market.
1) Property: Klang Valley for easy management.
2) KLSE/Singapore/US Stocks (Waiting for Strong Bear)

To choose property that are friendly for AirBnB for 2 purposes:
a) more yield, lower purchase price, higher rental, targeting 8% - 10%
b) defensive, travel business will be defensive in bad economy.

Looking for second opinion or even crticism from wiser sifu. I am still considering and yet to make final decision. wish to listen to some second opinion.
*
Congratulations on your successful investment in China!

My quick 2 cents ..

* any agent fees and govt taxes (eg capital gain tax) to pay in China on selling the property?
* Msian tax on returning the money home?
* I am one of those who find property investment rather illiquid. OK if your plan is to just leave it there for years and harvest the gains many years later. Maybe channel more to shares, ETF, etc. ?

Cheerio.
Showtime747
post Dec 22 2018, 09:08 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Dec 22 2018, 08:23 PM)
Very good try but mine is not KLCI shares. European shares.

The sales and transfers to my Msian ac were done within 3 days. Very smooth process though if it was within 1 day, I would gained a bit more, it was during the BREXIT vote week with share price and currency rate going against me.  bangwall.gif  ranting.gif
*
thumbup.gif

Which platform are you using ? Which market were you in ?

This post has been edited by Showtime747: Dec 22 2018, 09:09 PM
Lcclcc
post Dec 22 2018, 11:38 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Dec 22 2018, 08:32 PM)
Congratulations on your successful investment in China!

My quick 2 cents ..

* any agent fees and govt taxes (eg capital gain tax) to pay in China on selling the property?
* Msian tax on returning the money home?
* I am one of those who find property investment rather illiquid. OK if your plan is to just leave it there for years and harvest the gains many years later. Maybe channel more to shares, ETF, etc. ?

Cheerio.
*
* any agent fees and govt taxes (eg capital gain tax) to pay in China on selling the property?
In China, there is stamp duty, personal tax as well as RPGT. which standard practice here, these all will bare by buyer.
If buyer buying with cash or more downpayment, so there is tricks to make the valutation much lower and hence the total taxes required.
You need to pay huge downpayment and quite a sizeable amount of tax when you are buying a property.
-Agent fees pay by buyer. normal practice 2.7% but can negotiate to as low as 1%.

* Msian tax on returning the money home?
Yes, still figuring the way to bringing back to fun. so, most likely will use a HSBC or StandChart, to place a FD oversea
and applying for loan in msia. and slowly bring cash back. Just a rough idea, still figuring if it works.

* Yes, i am feeling illiquid. That why i am thinking of this mode, of Zero Debt, Property Valuation, and make ready Refinancing facilities using the property as collateral. So this can bring cash out quick if there is good invest opportunity.

* I am thinking to get use of the current market, buy auction at discounted price, can get higher bank valuation, can get more cash when refinancing, if ideally RM3M x 90%= will get higher leverage if required.
-Yes, i am thinking to put all these eventually available cash flow into share market. I sold all my malaysian share in 2015. I am thinking it's big bear in 2019-2020. But this will need time, research and observation, and process to build up the Share Portfolio.

I am hoping this is the final flip for me. i am thinking if it's bad market and a bottom in 2019-2020, hopefully assest to build up in another 5years (2023?2025?) then try to clear all debt and leverage and move to all positive cash flow model and live happily with no pressure.

I am 40years of age now. so hopefully retirement at 45years and live freedomely.




TSplumberly
post Dec 23 2018, 02:53 PM

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QUOTE(Lcclcc @ Dec 22 2018, 11:38 PM)
* any agent fees and govt taxes (eg capital gain tax) to pay in China on selling the property?
In China,  there is stamp duty, personal tax as well as RPGT. which standard practice here, these all will bare by buyer.
If buyer buying with cash or more downpayment, so there is tricks to make the valutation much lower and hence the total taxes required.
You need to pay huge downpayment and quite a sizeable amount of tax when you are buying a property.
-Agent fees pay by buyer. normal practice 2.7% but can negotiate to as low as 1%.

***** Tough to be a buyer in China!

* Msian tax on returning the money home?
Yes, still figuring the way to bringing back to fun. so, most likely will use a HSBC or StandChart, to place a FD oversea
and applying for loan in msia. and slowly bring cash back. Just a rough idea, still figuring if it works.

***** Assuming you are working in Msia, I thought money that you bring back is tax free if that is not related to your work. Eg overseas shares. Check with accountant.

* Yes, i am feeling illiquid. That why i am thinking of this mode, of Zero Debt, Property Valuation, and make ready Refinancing facilities using the property as collateral. So this can bring cash out quick if there is good invest opportunity.

* I am thinking to get use of the current market, buy auction at discounted price, can get higher bank valuation, can get more cash when refinancing, if ideally RM3M x 90%= will get higher leverage if required.
-Yes, i am thinking to put all these eventually available cash flow into share market. I sold all my malaysian share in 2015. I am thinking it's big bear in 2019-2020. But this will need time, research and observation, and process to build up the Share Portfolio.

*****  On the surface, auction may appear to be a great way to cheap undervalued properties. But it can be a can of worms for beginners, eg you buy it without checking the property (hidden plumbing, electrical, foundation problems), unpaid loans/fees/fines etc. Best to do a lot study first, preferably with someone who has done that before and is familiar with it.

I am hoping this is the final flip for me. i am thinking if it's bad market and a bottom in 2019-2020, hopefully assest  to build up in another 5years (2023?2025?) then try to clear all debt and leverage and move to all positive cash flow model and live happily with no pressure.

I am 40years of age now. so hopefully retirement at 45years and live freedomely.

***** Congratulations on your earlier planning, action and achievements so far! Keep it up! A friend of mine also retired at around 45 and is now enjoying his free and easy life!

*
P/S One food for thought. If you are now working in China (ie not in Msia), I think sending back the money or assets to Msia BEFORE your official return to Msia to work, that will be tax free. Heard of that for the UK. Being under British rules before, maybe we also follow that ruling.

PP/S I sold my shares for 2 reasons:
AA price went down by 50% in 2009 crash. I cannot bare to see another big dip in the next recession though it will recover later but at least 5-6 years later.
BB with the shift to electric vehicle, my outlook for the industry I invested in is not that rosy. I may be wrong with my belief but prefer to get out before 2040 when EU will stop production of vehicles of fossil vehicles. China has a plan too but dont know their timing.

Your case may be very different from mine. If your current rental return is good AND the resale 5-10 yrs outlook is promising for that area, maybe stay put considering that it is so expensive to buy later with the fees and taxes. My 2 cents. All the best!
JayCkat
post Dec 23 2018, 03:30 PM

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QUOTE(Lcclcc @ Dec 22 2018, 11:38 PM)
* Msian tax on returning the money home?
Yes, still figuring the way to bringing back to fun. so, most likely will use a HSBC or StandChart, to place a FD oversea
and applying for loan in msia. and slowly bring cash back. Just a rough idea, still figuring if it works.
*
How about trying transferwise? No money is actually moving between nations. So you avoid much official hassle.
Hansel
post Dec 30 2018, 11:40 PM

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QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Dec 22 2018, 08:10 PM)
Percentage dropped in KLCI for the period Aug-23 (when you started this thread) to Dec-7 (2 weeks ago when you sold your shares) is  -7.20%

Let's say a person has a portfolio of RM200,000

If sell earlier on Aug-23 instead of Dec-7, the amount "saved" would be RM14,394

Ie. if sell on Aug-23, the amount "saved" should be enough to buy a Nikon Z6 + a Yamaha digital piano....
*
Hi bro,... how are you ?

I have an opinion here to your good calculations above : If the shares we are talking about in the above is, say,.. a REIT that pays every quarter in SG, then the loss percentage will not be -7.20% anymore.

As an eg, from Aug-23 till Dec-7, I would have collected roughly two more rounds of dividend payouts before I disposed the shares, which may,... on average, yield me another 3.5%. Hence, the loss would only be : 7.20% - 3.50% = 3.70%.

It is always beneficial to buy dividend-paying shares,....


Boon3
post Dec 31 2018, 07:59 AM

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QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Dec 22 2018, 08:10 PM)
Percentage dropped in KLCI for the period Aug-23 (when you started this thread) to Dec-7 (2 weeks ago when you sold your shares) is  -7.20%

Let's say a person has a portfolio of RM200,000

If sell earlier on Aug-23 instead of Dec-7, the amount "saved" would be RM14,394

Ie. if sell on Aug-23, the amount "saved" should be enough to buy a Nikon Z6 + a Yamaha digital piano....
*
My 3 sens.

This is rather a market timing strategy. wink.gif

Timed to sell and then timed to buy. Difficult to execute, mistakes prone.

icon_rolleyes.gif

Showtime747
post Dec 31 2018, 08:58 AM

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QUOTE(Hansel @ Dec 30 2018, 11:40 PM)
Hi bro,... how are you ?

I have an opinion here to your good calculations above : If the shares we are talking about in the above is, say,.. a REIT that pays every quarter in SG, then the loss percentage will not be -7.20% anymore.

As an eg, from Aug-23 till Dec-7, I would have collected roughly two more rounds of dividend payouts before I disposed the shares, which may,... on average, yield me another 3.5%. Hence, the loss would only be : 7.20% - 3.50% = 3.70%.

It is always beneficial to buy dividend-paying shares,....
*
Happy new year bro !

Yes I agree with you. My calculation is just a rough calculation based on KLCI index, a broad indication of how timing of selling in a falling market would affect the returns of one’s investment

For individuals, it all depends on which individual stocks he owns. I am sure there are a few stocks did not drop, or even gain. Like some reits (IGB for example). Put in dividend or bonus issues, the returns may not be as bad

So, each individual portfolio would perform differently, but broadly, KLCI dropped about -7% for the period.

I am more interested how plumberly buy European stocks. Apparently he doesn’t want to share....but it’s ok. Do you have any idea ?
Showtime747
post Dec 31 2018, 09:01 AM

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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Dec 31 2018, 07:59 AM)
My 3 sens.

This is rather a market timing strategy. wink.gif

Timed to sell and then timed to buy. Difficult to execute, mistakes prone.

icon_rolleyes.gif
*
Yea....

Actually my reply to TS is just hindsight. As you know, hindsight vision is 20/20 biggrin.gif

No one could time the market. All about luck.
Boon3
post Dec 31 2018, 09:56 AM

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QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Dec 31 2018, 08:58 AM)
Happy new year bro !

Yes I agree with you. My calculation is just a rough calculation based on KLCI index, a broad indication of how timing of selling in a falling market would affect the returns of one’s investment

For individuals, it all depends on which individual stocks he owns. I am sure there are a few stocks did not drop, or even gain. Like some reits (IGB for example). Put in dividend or bonus issues, the returns may not be as bad

So, each individual portfolio would perform differently, but broadly, KLCI dropped about -7% for the period.

I am more interested how plumberly buy European stocks. Apparently he doesn’t want to share....but it’s ok. Do you have any idea ?
*
Sorry to butt in.. laugh.gif

So the theory is to clear the stock before the coming crash...

if the user waited till Dec only sell, DEPENDING on which stock (and using KLSE as the base example), some stocks would have fallen more than 50% from its peak, whilst, yes there are some that had held firm and in fact, still moving on up.

*wouldn't it be a much more logical if one sold BASED on fundamental reasons rather than assumption of market crash?*



And so where are we today? ie how would one define the current markets?

Have the markets crashed already since few months ago?
Or the real crash is yet to happen?
Or the market did not crash, it was only a mere correction?




Krv23490
post Dec 31 2018, 11:11 AM

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QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Dec 31 2018, 09:01 AM)
Yea....

Actually my reply to TS is just hindsight. As you know, hindsight vision is 20/20  biggrin.gif

No one could time the market. All about luck.
*
This is what i said earlier. Trying get it right twice but calling the top and calling the bottom is almost impossible
Showtime747
post Dec 31 2018, 11:12 AM

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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Dec 31 2018, 09:56 AM)
Sorry to butt in..  laugh.gif

So the theory is to clear the stock before the coming crash...

if the user waited till Dec only sell, DEPENDING on which stock (and using KLSE as the base example), some stocks would have fallen more than 50% from its peak, whilst, yes there are some that had held firm and in fact, still moving on up.

*wouldn't it be a much more logical if one sold BASED on fundamental reasons rather than assumption of market crash?*
And so where are we today? ie how would one define the current markets?

Have the markets crashed already since few months ago?
Or the real crash is yet to happen?
Or the market did not crash, it was only a mere correction?
*
Questions every investor would ask, and wish he has the answers

Only god knows the answer, assuming god can time travel

Since nobody is god here, at the end of every debate, there would be no answer. All answers are "horse behind cannon"

I would go along with "gut feeling". When you have the strongest feeling to sell or buy, don't resist. Do what your inner most tells you what to do.

Because if I want to die, I prefer to die in my own hands. Nobody else to blame.
Krv23490
post Dec 31 2018, 11:14 AM

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QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Dec 31 2018, 11:12 AM)
Questions every investor would ask, and wish he has the answers

Only god knows the answer, assuming god can time travel

Since nobody is god here, at the end of every debate, there would be no answer. All answers are "horse behind cannon"

I would go along with "gut feeling". When you have the strongest feeling to sell or buy, don't resist. Do what your inner most tells you what to do.

Because if I want to die, I prefer to die in my own hands. Nobody else to blame.
*
I agree with you as in investing there is no one to blame but yourself. Regardless of any investment vehicles(scam included) as in the end, you are the one that transfer money to wherever.

This gut feeling though, psychological speaking , most of the time is wrong. That is why so majority of people buy high and sell low. Human nature i guess.
Showtime747
post Dec 31 2018, 11:15 AM

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QUOTE(Krv23490 @ Dec 31 2018, 11:11 AM)
This is what i said earlier. Trying get it right twice but calling the top and calling the bottom is almost impossible
*
thumbup.gif

In my investment life, I have never bought at the bottom, or sell at the top. All of the time after buy, the stock drops, and after sell, the stock up

Those who brag at mamak stall which stock which stock buy at bottom sell at top we all know he BS biggrin.gif
Krv23490
post Dec 31 2018, 11:16 AM

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QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Dec 31 2018, 08:58 AM)
Happy new year bro !

Yes I agree with you. My calculation is just a rough calculation based on KLCI index, a broad indication of how timing of selling in a falling market would affect the returns of one’s investment

For individuals, it all depends on which individual stocks he owns. I am sure there are a few stocks did not drop, or even gain. Like some reits (IGB for example). Put in dividend or bonus issues, the returns may not be as bad

So, each individual portfolio would perform differently, but broadly, KLCI dropped about -7% for the period.

I am more interested how plumberly buy European stocks. Apparently he doesn’t want to share....but it’s ok. Do you have any idea ?
*
Can try those Foreign brokers such as IB or TD.

For local all i know is HLe can buy stocks listed in the UK but super high broker fees
Showtime747
post Dec 31 2018, 11:22 AM

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QUOTE(Krv23490 @ Dec 31 2018, 11:14 AM)
I agree with you as in investing there is no one to blame but yourself. Regardless of any investment vehicles(scam included) as in the end, you are the one that transfer money to wherever.

This gut feeling though, psychological speaking , most of the time is wrong. That is why so majority of people buy high and sell low. Human nature i guess.
*
I believe gut feeling is because I believe a person's life is determined by his own character.

Since character is born with the person, so his gut feeling will determine his success or failure.

If a person's character is very strong and confident, and do his own analysis and then decides what to do with his investment. That will determine his returns.

If a person's character is weak, undecisive and always need other people's input, then he probably won't trust his own analysis. He will listen to what other people say.

In the instance of this thread, those who are decisive and sell earlier would "gain" more (or lose less)

Both character will have different outcome. Both also depends on "gut feeling" (the lack of for the weak person)
Showtime747
post Dec 31 2018, 11:23 AM

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QUOTE(Krv23490 @ Dec 31 2018, 11:16 AM)
Can try those Foreign brokers such as IB or TD.

For local all i know is HLe can buy stocks listed in the UK but super high broker fees
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Thanks ! thumbup.gif
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post Dec 31 2018, 11:36 AM

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QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Dec 31 2018, 11:12 AM)
Questions every investor would ask, and wish he has the answers

Only god knows the answer, assuming god can time travel

Since nobody is god here, at the end of every debate, there would be no answer. All answers are "horse behind cannon"

I would go along with "gut feeling". When you have the strongest feeling to sell or buy, don't resist. Do what your inner most tells you what to do.

Because if I want to die, I prefer to die in my own hands. Nobody else to blame.
*
.... these would have been my exact questions I would be asking if I would had adapted such strategy for my trading..




Krv23490
post Dec 31 2018, 02:52 PM

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QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Dec 31 2018, 11:22 AM)
I believe gut feeling is because I believe a person's life is determined by his own character.

Since character is born with the person, so his gut feeling will determine his success or failure.

If a person's character is very strong and confident, and do his own analysis and then decides what to do with his investment. That will determine his returns.

If a person's character is weak, undecisive and always need other people's input, then he probably won't trust his own analysis. He will listen to what other people say.

In the instance of this thread, those who are decisive and sell earlier would "gain" more (or lose less)

Both character will have different outcome. Both also depends on "gut feeling" (the lack of for the weak person)
*
That's where knowledge and discipline comes along. Of course a dash of luck is needed as well

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post Dec 31 2018, 06:10 PM

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QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Dec 31 2018, 08:58 AM)
Happy new year bro !

Yes I agree with you. My calculation is just a rough calculation based on KLCI index, a broad indication of how timing of selling in a falling market would affect the returns of one’s investment

For individuals, it all depends on which individual stocks he owns. I am sure there are a few stocks did not drop, or even gain. Like some reits (IGB for example). Put in dividend or bonus issues, the returns may not be as bad

So, each individual portfolio would perform differently, but broadly, KLCI dropped about -7% for the period.

I am more interested how plumberly buy European stocks. Apparently he doesn’t want to share....but it’s ok. Do you have any idea ?
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Tq for the reply, bro and Happy New Year to you too,....

Yes, I understand exactly what you wrote,... and you are right too in your assumptions and in your points.

I have been watching some counters in The SGX, hoping for them to drop more for me to scoop up, but NO, they did not drop, BUT rose gradually instead,... I have to watch everyday,... it is indeed tiring,...

I can, of course, do a 'Good Till Cancelled' queue, but I am keeping my funds inside interest-earning accounts to maximise my passive income. I am not able to earn this interest if these funds are put up as queues awaiting strikes.

Hence, have to watch everyday, and like you said in one of your posts above, if I feel strongly that it is a bottom, I must buy - this is what I practise.

At the same time, I keep reading the news and updating myself with core subscriptions in order not to miss any news,... to detect for any changes in fundamentals towards a ctr that I am watching.
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post Dec 31 2018, 09:14 PM

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QUOTE(Hansel @ Dec 31 2018, 06:10 PM)
Tq for the reply, bro and Happy New Year to you too,....

Yes, I understand exactly what you wrote,... and you are right too in your assumptions and in your points.

I have been watching some counters in The SGX, hoping for them to drop more for me to scoop up, but NO, they did not drop, BUT rose gradually instead,... I have to watch everyday,... it is indeed tiring,...

I can, of course, do a 'Good Till Cancelled' queue, but I am keeping my funds inside interest-earning accounts to maximise my passive income. I am not able to earn this interest if these funds are put up as queues awaiting strikes.

Hence, have to watch everyday, and like you said in one of your posts above, if I feel strongly that it is a bottom, I must buy - this is what I practise.

At the same time, I keep reading the news and updating myself with core subscriptions in order not to miss any news,... to detect for any changes in fundamentals towards a ctr that I am watching.
*
Your way a lot of hardwork and tension leh.....

Over analysing may affect your decision...

命里有时终须有,命里无时莫强求 biggrin.gif
icemanfx
post Jan 1 2019, 02:42 AM

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QUOTE(Hansel @ Dec 31 2018, 06:10 PM)
Tq for the reply, bro and Happy New Year to you too,....

Yes, I understand exactly what you wrote,... and you are right too in your assumptions and in your points.

I have been watching some counters in The SGX, hoping for them to drop more for me to scoop up, but NO, they did not drop, BUT rose gradually instead,... I have to watch everyday,... it is indeed tiring,...

I can, of course, do a 'Good Till Cancelled' queue, but I am keeping my funds inside interest-earning accounts to maximise my passive income. I am not able to earn this interest if these funds are put up as queues awaiting strikes.

Hence, have to watch everyday, and like you said in one of your posts above, if I feel strongly that it is a bottom, I must buy - this is what I practise.

At the same time, I keep reading the news and updating myself with core subscriptions in order not to miss any news,... to detect for any changes in fundamentals towards a ctr that I am watching.
*
The market is on random walk in the short term. If you are confident with a stock and in for long haul, does it matter if you don't buy at the bottom? Alternatively, you could divide your buy over a few weeks period.

This post has been edited by icemanfx: Jan 1 2019, 09:58 AM
TSplumberly
post Jan 4 2019, 09:21 AM

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QUOTE(Hansel @ Dec 30 2018, 11:40 PM)
As an eg, from Aug-23 till Dec-7, I would have collected roughly two more rounds of dividend payouts before I disposed the shares, which may,... on average, yield me another 3.5%. Hence, the loss would only be : 7.20% - 3.50% = 3.70%.
*
***** Mind sharing why you sold your shares earlier?

QUOTE(Krv23490 @ Dec 31 2018, 11:11 AM)
This is what i said earlier. Trying get it right twice but calling the top and calling the bottom is almost impossible
*
***** I must go back for English and better communication classes! Failed again in my communication in this thread! As stated at the start of my thread and later I clarified to a friend here that I was NOT trying to buy low and sell high . Repeating what I said earlier, my aim is to get out before the coming crash as not to see anther 50% drop in the share price like in 2008. No intention to buy this share again after the crash as that industry does not look that rosy to me anymore. Ha. So not "buy low and sell high" but "sell before the crash and divest in other places".

QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Dec 31 2018, 11:22 AM)
In the instance of this thread, those who are decisive and sell earlier would "gain" more (or lose less)
*
***** After a few months of thinking and analysis, sold my shares. Now I have saved some $$$ as the prices have dropped over the past few weeks after I sold them. Yes, they may go up later and my plan has backfired. Ha. That is the penalty I am willing to take. In Bloomberg tv, now one can see so many things in RED and down arrows. In the past, asked myself what would happen to my shares and should I sell them etc etc? Now, I kinda look forward to seeing the RED and down arrows. Ha. Recession will happen. Hope it will start at the end of Feb 2019. Just want to get this over with.

QUOTE(Krv23490 @ Dec 31 2018, 02:52 PM)
That's where knowledge and discipline comes along. Of course a dash of luck is needed as well
*
***** Agree with you. On luck, my view is, some luck is when preparation meets opportunities. Thinking ahead.

Hansel
post Jan 7 2019, 04:59 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Jan 4 2019, 09:21 AM)
***** Mind sharing why you sold your shares earlier?

*
The ctrs which I have sold-off fully or partially have had a change in their fundamentals at that point in time. I might buy them back though if the fundamentals recovered,...
markedestiny
post Jan 8 2019, 09:33 AM

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Do you all think that we are currrently at the beginning of recession? IMHO, I think so based on what I have read although some analysts beg to differ.

Based on last recession in 2008/2009, by the time the recession was recognised officially, it was over and the market had went upswing. We know that it is not possible to buy at the bottom and if the market stays bearish for longer period, what would be your investment strategy.

I am beginning to pick up some slowly in small quantity, especially reits and dividend growth stocks which have historically able to outperform the market index over the long run and also some stocks which are too cheap to ignore.


[Ancient]-XinG-
post Jan 8 2019, 01:02 PM

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QUOTE(markedestiny @ Jan 8 2019, 09:33 AM)
Do you all think that we are  currrently at the beginning of recession? IMHO, I think so based on what I have read although some analysts beg to differ.

Based on last recession in 2008/2009, by the time the recession was recognised officially, it was over and the market had went upswing. We know that it is not possible to buy at the bottom and if the market stays bearish for longer period, what would be your investment strategy. 

I am beginning to pick up some slowly in small quantity, especially reits and dividend growth stocks which have historically able to outperform the market index over the long run and also some stocks which are too cheap to ignore.
*
last year analyst from schroders mentioned the recession shall happen in 02/19 if based on the chart and datas. but who knows
icemanfx
post Jan 8 2019, 02:25 PM

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Official numbers like economic recession gdp data is normally lagging behind the market.

markedestiny
post Jan 8 2019, 02:40 PM

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QUOTE(icemanfx @ Jan 8 2019, 02:25 PM)
Official numbers like economic recession gdp data is normally lagging behind the market.
*
That's right, this has been proven during the previous recession. Based on what I have read and gathered, I would think that we may be already at the early phase of recession. This is still very much debatable as opinions are split on this.

icemanfx
post Jan 8 2019, 02:44 PM

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QUOTE(markedestiny @ Jan 8 2019, 02:40 PM)
That's right, this has been proven during the previous recession.  Based on what I have read and gathered, I would think that we may be already at the early phase of recession.  This is still very much debatable as opinions are split on this.
*
There are early indicators for early stage of recession but few people understand or know how or where to read. those have too much to loss or vested interest tend to ignore or couldn't see negative news.

rubrubrub
post Jan 8 2019, 02:45 PM

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» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


wanna ask if a recession were to happen (mostly likely will), what is the best bet for the money?

btw, i lost about 13% on equities on paper. I foresee it'll drop again and planning to cut my losses before it drops further by end of feb 2019

This post has been edited by rubrubrub: Jan 8 2019, 02:46 PM
[Ancient]-XinG-
post Jan 8 2019, 02:49 PM

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QUOTE(icemanfx @ Jan 8 2019, 02:25 PM)
Official numbers like economic recession gdp data is normally lagging behind the market.
*
QUOTE(markedestiny @ Jan 8 2019, 02:40 PM)
That's right, this has been proven during the previous recession.  Based on what I have read and gathered, I would think that we may be already at the early phase of recession.  This is still very much debatable as opinions are split on this.
*
QUOTE(icemanfx @ Jan 8 2019, 02:44 PM)
There are early indicators for early stage of recession but few people understand or know how or where to read. those have too much to loss or vested interest tend to ignore or couldn't see negative news.
*
true.... that's why when we take those report or review.
A said this months. B said that months. C said another month....

combine it and got time frame. couple with indices.... perhaps we can see the directions. now all market booming. last time recession also having obvious uptrend before free fall.

icemanfx
post Jan 8 2019, 02:53 PM

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QUOTE(Ancient-XinG- @ Jan 8 2019, 02:49 PM)
true.... that's why when we take those report or review.
A said this months. B said that months. C said another month....

combine it and got time frame. couple with indices.... perhaps we can see the directions. now all market booming. last time recession also having obvious uptrend before free fall.
*
The market is on random walk in the short run.

This post has been edited by icemanfx: Jan 8 2019, 03:01 PM
TSplumberly
post Jan 8 2019, 07:03 PM

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QUOTE(rubrubrub @ Jan 8 2019, 02:45 PM)
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


wanna ask if a recession were to happen (mostly likely will), what is the best bet for the money?

btw, i lost about 13% on equities on paper. I foresee it'll drop again and planning to cut my losses before it drops further by end of feb 2019
*
My view is to check how that share performed in the last recession. If it dropped a little, maybe better to just keep it if its fundamental is strong and you are happy with its performance so far. If it dropped by a lot, then better get out now. Keep in mind, it was this and that in the past, it may not behave the same in this recession. If yours has dropped by 13% now, then I think it is not so recession proof. Ha.

Why wait till end of Feb? Wait for dividends?

All the best!
TSplumberly
post Jan 8 2019, 07:21 PM

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QUOTE(markedestiny @ Jan 8 2019, 09:33 AM)
Do you all think that we are  currrently at the beginning of recession? IMHO, I think so based on what I have read although some analysts beg to differ.

Based on last recession in 2008/2009, by the time the recession was recognised officially, it was over and the market had went upswing. We know that it is not possible to buy at the bottom and if the market stays bearish for longer period, what would be your investment strategy. 

I am beginning to pick up some slowly in small quantity, especially reits and dividend growth stocks which have historically able to outperform the market index over the long run and also some stocks which are too cheap to ignore.
*
What I have heard so far on the timing of the next recession ...

Asian guru ... between month x 2018 and month y 2019 (can't remember the months now, no need to plan your action down to the day/week/month). rclxm9.gif

Ray Dalio ... a couple of years (in his recent interview in Bloomberg). He is one of the best fund managers. hmm.gif

Blackrock ... something along the not-now line confused.gif

Allan Greenspan ... later (in his recent interview n Bloomberg) icon_question.gif

Warren Buffet ... ( i forgot what he said now, he gave a vague and smart answer, leaving it to you to guess). doh.gif

Best not to just listen and follow. Listen, learn, analyse etc etc. icon_rolleyes.gif

All the best!
icemanfx
post Jan 8 2019, 10:32 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Jan 8 2019, 07:21 PM)
What I have heard so far on the timing of the next recession ...

Asian guru ... between month x 2018 and month y 2019 (can't remember the months now, no need to plan your action down to the day/week/month).  rclxm9.gif

Ray Dalio  ... a couple of years (in his recent interview in Bloomberg). He is one of the best fund managers.  hmm.gif

Blackrock ... something along the not-now line  confused.gif

Allan Greenspan ... later (in his recent interview n Bloomberg)  icon_question.gif

Warren Buffet  ...  ( i forgot what he said  now, he gave a vague and smart answer, leaving it to you to guess).  doh.gif

Best not to just listen and follow. Listen, learn, analyse etc etc.  icon_rolleyes.gif

All the best!
*
About 10% of malaysia export are to the u.s., economic recession in the u.s may not have the drastic impact on malaysia.
ViktorJ
post Jan 8 2019, 10:34 PM

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Any outlook on USD vs MYR?

I am getting pretty mixed signals =(
TSplumberly
post Jan 9 2019, 08:37 AM

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QUOTE(icemanfx @ Jan 8 2019, 10:32 PM)
About 10% of malaysia export are to the u.s., economic recession in the u.s may not have the drastic impact on malaysia.
*
Not dominating in terms of Msia's export but the other 4 major trading partners (Spore, China, Japan & Thailand) will have their shares of direct trades with the USA. So, if these countries suffer due to the USA, that will affect Msia indirectly. So I think USA will have a bigger impact in Msia than just the export % (ie direct and indirect).

I may be wrong ....
icemanfx
post Jan 9 2019, 10:48 AM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Jan 9 2019, 08:37 AM)
Not dominating in terms of Msia's export but the other 4 major trading partners (Spore, China, Japan & Thailand) will have their shares of direct trades with the USA. So, if these countries suffer due to the USA, that will affect Msia indirectly. So I think USA will have a bigger impact in Msia than just the export % (ie direct and indirect).

I may be wrong ....
*
Fed's move is more likely to influence malaysia economy.

This post has been edited by icemanfx: Jan 9 2019, 10:49 AM
TSplumberly
post Jan 9 2019, 02:16 PM

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http://www.worldbank.org/en/publication/gl...nomic-prospects

Global Economic Prospects
- Darkening Skies

Discuss here or in a new thread?

One must read book for 2019! Ha.
Krv23490
post Jan 9 2019, 03:41 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Jan 8 2019, 07:21 PM)
What I have heard so far on the timing of the next recession ...

Asian guru ... between month x 2018 and month y 2019 (can't remember the months now, no need to plan your action down to the day/week/month).  rclxm9.gif

Ray Dalio  ... a couple of years (in his recent interview in Bloomberg). He is one of the best fund managers.  hmm.gif

Blackrock ... something along the not-now line  :confused:

Allan Greenspan ... later (in his recent interview n Bloomberg)  icon_question.gif

Warren Buffet  ...  ( i forgot what he said  now, he gave a vague and smart answer, leaving it to you to guess).  doh.gif

Best not to just listen and follow. Listen, learn, analyse etc etc.  icon_rolleyes.gif

All the best!
*
Not saying you are wrong but you can find pretty of existent big names calling it's not the end of the bull market . Even the other way round is true , in bear market, people will call bear market is over..

My point is, no one really knows.. just go according to your risk level. If you can stomach recession , stay in and don't try time the market. If unable (close to retirement or need cash soon ) , don't invest in high risk instruments .




Singh_Kalan
post Jan 9 2019, 04:46 PM

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If you practice the below, you will never make money from stock in a long run. Its either you time your selling wrongly OR miss out on the rebound. Always stay in the market is the key to long term growth. As wise man say, timing the market is for fools.

Clearing stocks before the coming crash, what have I missed out in the analysis?

This post has been edited by Singh_Kalan: Jan 9 2019, 04:48 PM
markedestiny
post Jan 10 2019, 01:23 PM

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QUOTE(Singh_Kalan @ Jan 9 2019, 04:46 PM)
If you practice the below, you will never make money from stock in a long run.  Its either you time your selling wrongly OR miss out on the rebound.  Always stay in the market is the key to long term growth.  As wise man say, timing the market is for fools.

Clearing stocks before the coming crash, what have I missed out in the analysis?
*
OK, I can understand what you are saying as I have the same thoughts initially but I have since change my perspectives. Some veterans here already shared experience about difficulties in timing the market or seeking out the bottom during recession. Also with the widespread use of algo/robo trading, the market have become even more volatile compared to the previous recession in 2008/09, which is what is happening to the market now. Further, not sure how long the coming recession will last, months or years. The market I here refers more to the US market, which I follow more, not so much of the asean market.

What do you think is the best approach or strategy for the current volatile market and glooming days ahead?
Krv23490
post Jan 10 2019, 02:12 PM

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QUOTE(markedestiny @ Jan 10 2019, 01:23 PM)
OK, I can understand what you are saying as I have the same thoughts initially but I have since change my perspectives.  Some veterans here already shared experience about difficulties in timing the market or seeking out  the bottom during recession.  Also with the widespread use of algo/robo trading, the market have become even more volatile compared to the previous recession in 2008/09, which is what is happening to the market now.  Further, not sure how long the coming recession will last, months or years. The market I here refers more to the US market, which I follow more, not so much of the asean market.

What do you think is the best approach or strategy for the current  volatile market and glooming days ahead?
*
Invest with what you can lose. Really depends on your risk appetite. Most important is make sure your job is secure and you have emergency funds if you think it's going to be worse than 2008/2009.

I have not sold my us stocks and buying a some ETFs here and there Via stashaway and FSM SG
TSplumberly
post Jan 11 2019, 03:00 PM

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https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentar...-delong-2019-01

What Will Cause the Next US Recession?
Jan 7, 2019 J. BRADFORD DELONG

For those interested to read.
BlurGuy1992
post Jan 11 2019, 03:14 PM

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Thanks ts.. parking for more learning!
icemanfx
post Jan 12 2019, 11:38 AM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Jan 11 2019, 03:00 PM)
https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentar...-delong-2019-01

What Will Cause the Next US Recession?
Jan 7, 2019 J. BRADFORD DELONG

For those interested to read.
*
Cause of economic recession is almost certain different from previously. the major concern is how much tools fed have in the box to counter the next downturn.

closer to home; mys economy is likely to drag down by surfacing subprime in property market.

This post has been edited by icemanfx: Jan 12 2019, 01:56 PM
Krv23490
post Jan 13 2019, 06:20 PM

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What to expect when you are expecting a bear market

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/201...g-a-bear-market

This post has been edited by Krv23490: Jan 13 2019, 06:21 PM
Hansel
post Jan 13 2019, 11:16 PM

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I am predicting we could be near to the bottom now.
TSplumberly
post Jan 14 2019, 09:38 AM

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QUOTE(Krv23490 @ Jan 13 2019, 06:20 PM)
What to expect when you are expecting a bear market

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/201...g-a-bear-market
*
Thanks.

I saw a few in the web. Will share the good ones here.

I should also share the ones on no recession just to be fair to others. And also to get myself out of the recession tunnel vision! Ha.
TSplumberly
post Jan 14 2019, 11:41 AM

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QUOTE(Hansel @ Jan 13 2019, 11:16 PM)
I am predicting we could be near to the bottom now.
*
Just my view which may be totally wrong, if I based it on the volatility chart, don't think we have past the recession tunnel yet.

Maybe on the way to the tunnel.

In 2008, VI went from 21 to 79 in 56 days. That recession was one of the worst. Will the next recession be a mild one or a really bad one?

Attached Image
Hansel
post Jan 14 2019, 01:48 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Jan 14 2019, 11:41 AM)
Just my view which may be totally wrong, if I based it on the volatility chart, don't think we have past the recession tunnel yet.

Maybe on the way to the tunnel.

In 2008, VI went from 21 to 79 in 56 days. That recession was one of the worst. Will the next recession be a mild one or a really bad one?

Attached Image
*
Anyone could be wrong, bro,... appreciated your input,...

Being close to the bottom can mean being on either side of the trough, bro,.... could mean currently the mkt is still dropping (like you said here) but turning round soon, or could have rounded the trough and could be on the way up now...

For myself, I'm basing my decision on the events surrounding us now, and a little bit on the technical rdgs seen here and there. I'm watching the SGX.

And I've started to buy last week !

Well,............. Mr Powell is 'turning round',.... this is a very big factor to me !!!!!!!!!
Krv23490
post Jan 14 2019, 03:17 PM

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QUOTE(Hansel @ Jan 14 2019, 01:48 PM)
Anyone could be wrong, bro,... appreciated your input,...

Being close to the bottom can mean being on either side of the trough, bro,.... could mean currently the mkt is still dropping (like you said here) but turning round soon, or could have rounded the trough and could be on the way up now...

For myself, I'm basing my decision on the events surrounding us now, and a little bit on the technical rdgs seen here and there. I'm watching the SGX.

And I've started to buy last week !

Well,............. Mr Powell is 'turning round',.... this is a very big factor to me !!!!!!!!!
*
I am waiting for Q4 earnings starting this week ! If bad earnings by the banks, sure everyone scared again .

Hansel
post Jan 16 2019, 12:12 AM

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QUOTE(Krv23490 @ Jan 14 2019, 03:17 PM)
I am waiting for Q4 earnings starting this week ! If bad earnings by the banks, sure everyone scared again .
*
There will be bad earnings report from Wall Street this week,...we know what happened in December last year,... well,.. to me - I hoped the mkt will be scared this week !!!!!!!

Last chance to buy !!!!!
Krv23490
post Jan 16 2019, 12:15 AM

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QUOTE(Hansel @ Jan 16 2019, 12:12 AM)
There will be bad earnings report from Wall Street this week,...we know what happened in December last year,... well,.. to me - I hoped the mkt will be scared this week !!!!!!!

Last chance to buy !!!!!
*
Citi and jP Morgan miss earnings but stocks still rocketing up..
icemanfx
post Jan 16 2019, 08:53 AM

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QUOTE(Krv23490 @ Jan 16 2019, 12:15 AM)
Citi and jP Morgan miss earnings but stocks still rocketing up..
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The market is on random walk in the short term.
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post Jan 16 2019, 09:35 AM

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QUOTE(Krv23490 @ Jan 16 2019, 12:15 AM)
Citi and jP Morgan miss earnings but stocks still rocketing up..
*
Looks like the investing world is starting to get smart - not good for people like us !!!!!!!!!!! sad.gif sad.gif mad.gif mad.gif

Edited by adding : Forgot to thank you for updating on the above bank earnings from last night,... please update again on coming earnings this week and the next !

This post has been edited by Hansel: Jan 16 2019, 09:39 AM
Hansel
post Jan 16 2019, 09:43 AM

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QUOTE(icemanfx @ Jan 16 2019, 08:53 AM)
The market is on random walk in the short term.
*
Short term, medium term and long term are infinite in the 'truest' sense of the terms. If we are to plan for the 'longest term', thinking that the long term reflects the real values of the mkt, then there is nothing to invest into,...
cherroy
post Jan 16 2019, 09:44 AM

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QUOTE(Hansel @ Jan 16 2019, 09:35 AM)
Looks like the investing world is starting to get smart - not good for people like us !!!!!!!!!!! sad.gif  sad.gif  mad.gif  mad.gif
*
At the same times, it may mean, investors overlook the risk, aka complacency.
Having said that, to be fair, US stocks are not that expensive after last year end big decline, provided the economy situation doesn't turn sour too much.

Currently, US market is having mini bull rebounding, after the Dec rout.


Krv23490
post Jan 16 2019, 11:54 AM

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QUOTE(cherroy @ Jan 16 2019, 09:44 AM)
At the same times, it may mean, investors overlook the risk, aka complacency.
Having said that, to be fair, US stocks are not that expensive after last year end big decline, provided the economy situation doesn't turn sour too much.

Currently, US market is having mini bull rebounding, after the Dec rout.
*
One of the main difference I read between 2008 and now is , everyone back then had no idea (no fear) that a recession would ever happen .

Today, everyone is so connected and on edge, a small spark can cause everyone to panic and sell, even Citibank CEO said that biggest risk is people talking themselves to the next recession , as opposed to underlying fundamentals.

For example, look what happened at the 'yield inversion' . All this just makes it harder to time the market , should just rebalance based on risk profile .
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post Jan 16 2019, 01:50 PM

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Investors need to distinguish between a recession and a full blown crisis. What global markets are expecting is a recession, as in contracting economic growth. Corporate profits will shrink but business goes on as usual. Central banks and governments will act to stimulate growth by lowering interest rates and spending more, leading to normalisation of growth. Stock markets may dip in line with contracting profits, but nothing major. Several countries like Germany are already at this point, with the economy contracting in Q4 of 2018. If it contracts again this quarter, this qualifies for a recession but markets are not making a big deal over this.

On the other hand, a crisis involves more than just contracting GDP growth. It involves the messy unravelling of the financial system due to loss of faith in the banks and other institutions. This is usually triggered by the bursting of some asset bubbles, and the failing of central banks to act in preventing the domino effect. Everyone just dumps anything except cash and solid bonds. We saw that in the US in 2008 and Asia in 1997. In this scenario a major bear market is likely.

At this point, which is more likely? Are there any significant asset bubbles that will burst? If yes, how will central banks react? Do we expect them to do nothing until banks fail?

So far, stocks are not showing any bubble like valuations. Property prices are high, but central banks are very careful to not cause a collapse. The only bubble that I can think of that has burst is the crypto space, which had little impact on financial systems fortunately.

Since this thread is focused on a crash, what do you guys think will trigger it? Just an open ended question to think.

This post has been edited by Havoc Knightmare: Jan 16 2019, 01:52 PM
foofoosasa
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QUOTE(Havoc Knightmare @ Jan 16 2019, 01:50 PM)
Investors need to distinguish between a recession and a full blown crisis. What global markets are expecting is a recession, as in contracting economic growth. Corporate profits will shrink but business goes on as usual. Central banks and governments will act to stimulate growth by lowering interest rates and spending more, leading to normalisation of growth. Stock markets may dip in line with contracting profits, but nothing major. Several countries like Germany are already at this point, with the economy contracting in Q4 of 2018. If it contracts again this quarter, this qualifies for a recession but markets are not making a big deal over this.

On the other hand, a crisis involves more than just contracting GDP growth. It involves the messy unravelling of the financial system due to loss of faith in the banks and other institutions. This is usually triggered by the bursting of some asset bubbles, and the failing of central banks to act in preventing the domino effect. Everyone just dumps anything except cash and solid bonds. We saw that in the US in 2008 and Asia in 1997. In this scenario a major bear market is likely.

At this point, which is more likely? Are there any significant asset bubbles that will burst? If yes, how will central banks react? Do we expect them to do nothing until banks fail?

So far, stocks are not showing any bubble like valuations. Property prices are high, but central banks are very careful to not cause a collapse. The only bubble that I can think of that has burst is the crypto space, which had little impact on financial systems fortunately.

Since this thread is focused on a crash, what do you guys think will trigger it? Just an open ended question to think.
*
Many says China property bubble ( which I heard since 2009 I think ), which will affect the chinese banks etc.

Some says brexit, will trigger something on pound and those european debt crisis . ( I think I heard this since 2010 also ).

some even say japan debt crisis as well ( which mentioned many many years ago also )

Agree with you, the bubble than has been burst recent years only happen in crypto.

I dunno you all, I still bull on global giant tech stocks .

Based on equity market pricing recently, this trade war almost fully absorb in the equity market valuation.

I expect Malaysia equity will continue in bear territory at least another 2 more years. So far no good news I heard at all

most of the analyst estimate earning result of companies like O&G , Construction , Plantation , Casino . Property , etc

not much surprise and going down or flattish in the next few quarter.

Really bottom or not , I guess nobody know. Just slowly add and add lo tongue.gif tongue.gif


[Ancient]-XinG-
post Jan 16 2019, 03:57 PM

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the market really gone haywire.

bad news but indices gone otherwise...
Hansel
post Jan 17 2019, 06:40 PM

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Because US Feds are more careful today !!!
Hansel
post Jan 17 2019, 06:42 PM

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Guys,... the moment the US Shutdown matter is resolved,... really,... no time to buy anymore. My instincts !!!
markedestiny
post Jan 17 2019, 09:25 PM

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QUOTE(Ancient-XinG- @ Jan 16 2019, 03:57 PM)
the market really gone haywire.

bad news but indices gone otherwise...
*
This is what they called value trap rally or more bluntly suckers rally. Hopefully not, but let's see

Showtime747
post Jan 17 2019, 10:27 PM

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QUOTE(Hansel @ Jan 17 2019, 06:42 PM)
Guys,... the moment the US Shutdown matter is resolved,... really,... no time to buy anymore. My instincts !!!
*
thumbup.gif

All things, although still pending, looks a lot clearer they will be solved soon.

Maybe left with china’s debt. I will stay out of China related counters for now
liangzai84
post Jan 17 2019, 10:49 PM

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Some Hong Kong stocks sink 70% as wave of selling hits

Jiayuan International Group Ltd., Sunshine 100 China Holdings Ltd. and Rentian Technology Holdings Ltd. fell more than 75 percent in a matter of minutes and at least 10 companies were 20 percent lower by the close, wiping out HK$37.4 billion ($4.8 billion) in market value.

[Ancient]-XinG-
post Jan 18 2019, 08:18 AM

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it would be a miracle if the 10 years cycle never happen.

V shape recovery for us eq. wtf does it mean FML. the fed old stop playing around.... driving me nuts!!!!!
Hansel
post Jan 18 2019, 10:09 AM

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QUOTE(Hansel @ Jan 17 2019, 06:40 PM)
Because US Feds are more careful today !!!
*
QUOTE(Hansel @ Jan 17 2019, 06:42 PM)
Guys,... the moment the US Shutdown matter is resolved,... really,... no time to buy anymore. My instincts !!!
*
Same replies as in the above !!!!!!!
cherroy
post Jan 18 2019, 11:01 AM

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If trade deal concluded, then DJ up another 2000 points and all time high again? bruce.gif
Krv23490
post Jan 18 2019, 05:47 PM

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QUOTE(liangzai84 @ Jan 17 2019, 10:49 PM)
Some Hong Kong stocks sink 70% as wave of selling hits

Jiayuan International Group Ltd., Sunshine 100 China Holdings Ltd. and Rentian Technology Holdings Ltd. fell more than 75 percent in a matter of minutes and at least 10 companies were 20 percent lower by the close, wiping out HK$37.4 billion ($4.8 billion) in market value.
*
Same company up 74% today
[Ancient]-XinG-
post Jan 18 2019, 08:42 PM

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QUOTE(Hansel @ Jan 18 2019, 10:09 AM)
Same replies as in the above !!!!!!!
*
meaning now is the best time to buy?

the 10 years thing already over?
woonsc
post Jan 19 2019, 02:48 PM

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Maybe Trump getting impeached is the trigger
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post Jan 19 2019, 02:56 PM

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QUOTE(woonsc @ Jan 19 2019, 02:48 PM)
Maybe Trump getting impeached is the trigger
*
I was saying that to myself this morning while watching Bloomberg on the latest "fake" news about him asking the lawyer to lie.

Even then, it will be difficult for the senate to impeach him as it will be

him1 saying this

vs

him2 saying that

with no solid proof.


woonsc
post Jan 19 2019, 03:49 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Jan 19 2019, 02:56 PM)
I was saying that to myself this morning while watching Bloomberg on the latest "fake" news about him asking the lawyer to lie.

Even then, it will be difficult for the senate to impeach him as it will be

him1 saying this

vs

him2 saying that

with no solid proof.
*
What if it's done.
Market will rise? tongue.gif
Krv23490
post Jan 19 2019, 04:38 PM

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QUOTE(woonsc @ Jan 19 2019, 03:49 PM)
What if it's done.
Market will rise? tongue.gif
*
I think if trump is impeached, good for long term but bad for short term. Market does not like uncertainty
icemanfx
post Jan 19 2019, 06:22 PM

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QUOTE(woonsc @ Jan 19 2019, 03:49 PM)
What if it's done.
Market will rise? tongue.gif
*
QUOTE(Krv23490 @ Jan 19 2019, 04:38 PM)
I think if trump is impeached, good for long term but bad for short term. Market does not like uncertainty
*
Better to send dt to jail than impeach him.


TSplumberly
post Jan 19 2019, 07:48 PM

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QUOTE(woonsc @ Jan 19 2019, 03:49 PM)
What if it's done.
Market will rise? tongue.gif
*
My impression is, USA stock market is T-philia, index has gone up since he took over and he has been taking credits for the rise.

So, if he leaves the WH suddenly, my gut feel is some will jump to something safer till the storm has died down. With so many global political, financial, social storm fronts in the horizon, that may be the start of .....

Yes, that is a biased view from a recession minded friend here. Ha.

rclxm9.gif thumbup.gif brows.gif doh.gif icon_question.gif
Krv23490
post Jan 19 2019, 09:29 PM

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The Economy is one of the best in our history, with unemployment at a 50 year low, and the Stock Market ready to again break a record (set by us many times) - & all you heard yesterday, based on a phony story, was Impeachment. You want to see a Stock Market Crash, Impeach Trump!

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/...607079308251136

weekend entertainment
[Ancient]-XinG-
post Jan 19 2019, 10:21 PM

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QUOTE(Krv23490 @ Jan 19 2019, 09:29 PM)
The Economy is one of the best in our history, with unemployment at a 50 year low, and the Stock Market ready to again break a record (set by us many times) - & all you heard yesterday, based on a phony story, was Impeachment. You want to see a Stock Market Crash, Impeach Trump!

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/...607079308251136

weekend entertainment
*
LOL.
TSplumberly
post Jan 31 2019, 08:36 PM

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Deleted (not really relevant)

This post has been edited by plumberly: Jan 31 2019, 08:40 PM
TSplumberly
post Feb 11 2019, 09:08 AM

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IMF warns of global economic 'storm' as growth undershoots

2019 World Economic Forum (WEF) annual meeting in Davos
International Monetary Fund (IMF) Managing Director Christine Lagarde attends the World Economic Forum (WEF) annual meeting in Davos, Switzerland, Jan 23, 2019.
10 Feb 2019 11:21PM (Updated: 10 Feb 2019 11:30PM)


DUBAI: The International Monetary Fund on Sunday (Feb 10) warned governments to gear up for a possible economic storm as growth undershoots expectations.

"The bottom-line - we see an economy that is growing more slowly than we had anticipated," IMF managing director Christine Lagarde told the World Government Summit in Dubai.

Last month, the IMF lowered its global economic growth forecast for this year from 3.7 per cent to 3.5 per cent.

Lagarde cited what she called "four clouds" as the main factors undermining the global economy and warned that a "storm" might strike.

The risks include "trade tensions and tariff escalations, financial tightening, uncertainty related to (the) Brexit outcome and spillover impact and an accelerated slowdown of the Chinese economy", she said.

Lagarde said trade tensions - mainly in the shape of a tariff spat between the United States and China, the world's two biggest economies - are already having a global impact.


"We have no idea how it is going to pan out and what we know is that it is already beginning to have an effect on trade, on confidence and on markets," she said, warning governments to avoid protectionism.

Lagarde also pointed to the risks posed by rising borrowing costs within a context of "heavy debt" racked up by governments, firms and households.

"When there are too many clouds, it takes one lightning (bolt) to start the storm," she said.

Source: AFP/aj


Read more at https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/busine...agarde-11227716

P/S Surprised to read that some countries have not had recession for the past 2 - 3 decades!

Vietnam, Cambodia, Kazakhstan

So go and invest there? BUT .. it can be a boiling kettle about to burst. Ha.

This post has been edited by plumberly: Feb 11 2019, 09:12 AM
Krv23490
post Feb 11 2019, 06:55 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Feb 11 2019, 09:08 AM)
IMF warns of global economic 'storm' as growth undershoots

2019 World Economic Forum (WEF) annual meeting in Davos
International Monetary Fund (IMF) Managing Director Christine Lagarde attends the World Economic Forum (WEF) annual meeting in Davos, Switzerland, Jan 23, 2019.
10 Feb 2019 11:21PM (Updated: 10 Feb 2019 11:30PM)
DUBAI: The International Monetary Fund on Sunday (Feb 10) warned governments to gear up for a possible economic storm as growth undershoots expectations.

"The bottom-line - we see an economy that is growing more slowly than we had anticipated," IMF managing director Christine Lagarde told the World Government Summit in Dubai.

Last month, the IMF lowered its global economic growth forecast for this year from 3.7 per cent to 3.5 per cent.

Lagarde cited what she called "four clouds" as the main factors undermining the global economy and warned that a "storm" might strike.

The risks include "trade tensions and tariff escalations, financial tightening, uncertainty related to (the) Brexit outcome and spillover impact and an accelerated slowdown of the Chinese economy", she said.

Lagarde said trade tensions - mainly in the shape of a tariff spat between the United States and China, the world's two biggest economies - are already having a global impact.
"We have no idea how it is going to pan out and what we know is that it is already beginning to have an effect on trade, on confidence and on markets," she said, warning governments to avoid protectionism.

Lagarde also pointed to the risks posed by rising borrowing costs within a context of "heavy debt" racked up by governments, firms and households.

"When there are too many clouds, it takes one lightning (bolt) to start the storm," she said.

Source: AFP/aj
Read more at https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/busine...agarde-11227716

P/S Surprised to read that some countries have not had recession for the past 2 - 3 decades!

Vietnam, Cambodia, Kazakhstan

So go and invest there? BUT .. it can be a boiling kettle about to burst. Ha.
*
Lucky to those who didn't sell at the bottom in Dec or Jan, and props to those that DCA-ed when times when down compared to this month..One day you will be right though , one day...

TSplumberly
post Feb 15 2019, 09:36 PM

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2019's Multifaceted Investment Landscape

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/video-...dscape-11245524


cezardewitt
post Feb 19 2019, 11:15 AM

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how confident about the coming crash?
icemanfx
post Feb 19 2019, 11:32 AM

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QUOTE(cezardewitt @ Feb 19 2019, 11:15 AM)
how confident about the coming crash?
*
Coming crash? where were you a few months ago? some considered the rout in q4/18 was a crash.

This post has been edited by icemanfx: Feb 19 2019, 11:34 AM
markedestiny
post Feb 19 2019, 02:08 PM

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I realised that I have changed in my investment strategy during these period while waiting for the 'recession' after having been away from this forum and reading up various investment related articles, news, foreign forums, etc.

I decided to stay invested, gradually in small sum and lately have started to invest on good stocks which have been deeply undervalued since end December 2018 and if these met my consideration of risk/reward aspect. These stocks may dive, but hopefully not too deep if recession happens but I am going to long on these.


cezardewitt
post Feb 19 2019, 02:29 PM

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mind sharing which stocks youre invested in? would like to have a look
markedestiny
post Feb 19 2019, 02:38 PM

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QUOTE(cezardewitt @ Feb 19 2019, 02:29 PM)
mind sharing which stocks youre invested in? would like to have a look
*
Which market are you in? If local market, I have exited for cash position except for one two REITs
cezardewitt
post Feb 19 2019, 02:56 PM

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mostly local, but generally looking around to learn
Boon3
post Feb 20 2019, 09:22 AM

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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Dec 31 2018, 09:56 AM)
Sorry to butt in..  laugh.gif

So the theory is to clear the stock before the coming crash...

if the user waited till Dec only sell, DEPENDING on which stock (and using KLSE as the base example), some stocks would have fallen more than 50% from its peak, whilst, yes there are some that had held firm and in fact, still moving on up.

*wouldn't it be a much more logical if one sold BASED on fundamental reasons rather than assumption of market crash?*
And so where are we today? ie how would one define the current markets?

Have the markets crashed already since few months ago?
Or the real crash is yet to happen?
Or the market did not crash, it was only a mere correction?

*
Markets trades to as per future expectations...
Many months ago, the US stocks traded based on insane earnings projections.
Without those rocket numbers (many implied CAGR profits of close to 30% laugh.gif) , markets were simply pricey.
Then the trade tariffs came.
Profits started to slump and the market reacted in EXPECTATION of lower earnings...
Now we have the trade talks... which implies the possibility that profits declines could end....
Hence the markets .........

Perhaps this is proving CLEARLY again that you do not and should not attempt to time the market (LIKE ANTICIPATION OF A MARKET CRASH).....

icon_rolleyes.gif

Krv23490
post Feb 20 2019, 09:57 AM

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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Feb 20 2019, 09:22 AM)
Markets trades to as per future expectations...
Many months ago, the US stocks traded based on insane earnings projections.
Without those rocket numbers (many implied CAGR profits of close to 30% laugh.gif) , markets were simply pricey.
Then the trade tariffs came.
Profits started to slump and the market reacted in EXPECTATION of lower earnings...
Now we have the trade talks... which implies the possibility that profits declines could end....
Hence the markets .........

Perhaps this is proving CLEARLY again that you do not and should not attempt to time the market (LIKE ANTICIPATION OF A MARKET CRASH).....

icon_rolleyes.gif
*
Dude...I could not agree more. That is exactly what I have been saying in this thread, if people were to clear everything last December, would have missed out alot .
markedestiny
post Feb 20 2019, 10:18 AM

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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Feb 20 2019, 09:22 AM)
Markets trades to as per future expectations...
Many months ago, the US stocks traded based on insane earnings projections.
Without those rocket numbers (many implied CAGR profits of close to 30% laugh.gif) , markets were simply pricey.
Then the trade tariffs came.
Profits started to slump and the market reacted in EXPECTATION of lower earnings...
Now we have the trade talks... which implies the possibility that profits declines could end....
Hence the markets .........

Perhaps this is proving CLEARLY again that you do not and should not attempt to time the market (LIKE ANTICIPATION OF A MARKET CRASH).....

icon_rolleyes.gif
*
It's risk mitigation for some people with all the signals/charts/data or whatever analysis that they are monitoring especially if they are heavily invested in equities and they are learning from history...

For myself, I am new to stock and I am wary too of the market news and signals..some waited by the side for the recession to happen with the assumption that this is a one time drop and got ample time to invest on the cheap before the market goes up again (I admitted I have this assumption or idealism initially). I realised during the market rout last December where most expected a 'santa rally' but it turned out to be a significant drop, it's too fast to catch hold and react to the market and opportunities are gone.

Now I decided to stay invested, very selectively and gradually in small sum and add as I go along with the goal of buying more if recession do come by around the corner.
Boon3
post Feb 20 2019, 11:32 AM

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QUOTE(markedestiny @ Feb 20 2019, 10:18 AM)



QUOTE

It's risk mitigation for some people with all the signals/charts/data or whatever analysis that they are monitoring especially if they are heavily invested in equities and they are learning from history...


Yes, of course, understanding and managing the risk is utterly paramount but shouldn't one understand the theory and risk of a particular strategy first? The strategy of clearing stocks assuming a crash would happen is simply predicting an event would happen. And such a strategy is simply risky itself as the user would most likely get it wrong by either exiting the stocks way too early or way too late.

And then recessionary data. Such data is lagging. The confirmation of recession might take several months after it has happened... or not.

If you are new to stocks and I have one and only advice. Paper trade or paper invest.. Many lose money because they don't have the patience to study in depth the markets and the trading or investing strategies... They just dive in.... and when they are wrong, they never admit they are wrong by cutting losses. They just sit and hope that the market will go up back to their cost and correct their initial mistakes... A 50% drop in a stock, would need the stock to double up just to recover their cost....



markedestiny
post Feb 20 2019, 01:19 PM

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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Feb 20 2019, 11:32 AM)
Yes, of course, understanding and managing the risk is utterly paramount but shouldn't one understand the theory and risk of a particular strategy first? The strategy of clearing stocks assuming a crash would happen is simply predicting an event would happen. And such a strategy is simply risky itself as the user would most likely get it wrong by either exiting the stocks way too early or way too late.

And then recessionary data. Such data is lagging. The confirmation of recession might take several months after it has happened... or not.

If you are new to stocks and I have one and only advice. Paper trade or paper invest.. Many lose money because they don't have the patience to study in depth the markets and the trading or investing strategies... They just dive in.... and when they are wrong, they never admit they are wrong by cutting losses. They just sit and hope that the market will go up back to their cost and correct their initial mistakes... A 50% drop in a stock, would need the stock to double up just to recover their cost....
*
That's why I have stay invested, selectively. Already invested in KLSE, SGX and HKEX.
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post Feb 20 2019, 04:24 PM

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Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger discuss intrinsic value at the 1997 Berkshire Hathaway annual meeting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ioeNrmn4eY
okyjace
post Feb 21 2019, 10:19 AM

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My sense is that KLSE is steadily heading upwards in the coming months. Corporate earnings are holding up reasonably well and so is economic activity in the country. Will be investing my bonus money in stocks instead of FD or property.
XiangWego
post Feb 21 2019, 02:00 PM

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*US Mini Dow Jones Mar 19*

Yesterday close : 25964 +81

DJI edged higher to more than 2 months high on US-China trade hopes and a more to dovish FOMC meeting minutes. Watch out for jobless claims & durable goods orders data on 930pm, existing home sales data on 11pm tonight.

4H chart formed higher highs & lows, more to bullish, but be cautious as RSI in overbought.

*Classic Support & Resistance*
Support: 25789 25275
Resistance: 26268 26562

*Recommended trading plan today:*
1. Buy 26030, stop 26010, profit 26050/26070/26090/26110.

*Margin Requirement (per lot):*
USD 6490

Disclaimer: Idea sharing only, trade at your own risk.
Boon3
post Feb 21 2019, 02:22 PM

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QUOTE(markedestiny @ Feb 20 2019, 01:19 PM)
That's why I have stay invested, selectively.  Already invested in KLSE, SGX and HKEX.
*
... er...
markedestiny
post Feb 22 2019, 10:03 AM

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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Feb 21 2019, 02:22 PM)
... er...
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yes? I do appreciate your advice smile.gif
TSplumberly
post Feb 26 2019, 12:32 PM

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First, let me recap, my intention is NOT to time the market, sell high and buy low. Just want to minimise my losses when the global recession hits. Ya ya, no one knows the timing when it will hit. I just want to get out before it hits. Then I should not be in shares? I beg to differ. Normal market fluctuations I can take. But this huge recession drop, I don't want to repeat the 2008 mistake. Learn from my mistake (I sold all my other shares before the 2008 crash except this one).

A quick overview on where I am after selling my shares ...

Attached Image

Lugi by about 3.7% as the price has gained in recent month. bangwall.gif

No regret. Ha. tongue.gif

After selling, dont feel that worried when I hear bad news on that industry, global economy, politics, Trump, BREXIT, Germany, Italy, China etc etc. Don't have to worry about this part of my retirement fund now. rclxm9.gif

Learn and enjoy the ship journey as it gets into stormy sea! Ha. confused.gif doh.gif

Cheerio.

This post has been edited by plumberly: Feb 26 2019, 12:59 PM
Krv23490
post Feb 26 2019, 12:42 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Feb 26 2019, 12:32 PM)
First, let me recap, my intention is NOT to time the market, sell high and buy low. Just want to minimise my losses when the global recession hits. Ya ya, no one knows the timing when it will hit. I just want to get out before it hits. Then I should not be in shares? I beg to differ. Normal market fluctuations I can take. But this huge recession drop, I don't want to repeat the 1998 mistake. Learn from my mistake (I sold all my other shares before the 2008 crash except this one).

A quick overview on where I am after selling my shares ...

Attached Image

Lugi by about 3.7% as the price has gained in recent month.  bangwall.gif

No regret. Ha.  tongue.gif

After selling, dont feel that worried when I hear bad news on that industry, global economy, politics, Trump, BREXIT, Germany, Italy, China etc etc. Don't have to worry about this part of my retirement fund now.  rclxm9.gif

Learn and enjoy the ship journey as it gets into stormy sea! Ha.  confused.gif  doh.gif

Cheerio.
*
lol, mind sharing what counter is that ?



TSplumberly
post Feb 26 2019, 12:58 PM

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QUOTE(Krv23490 @ Feb 26 2019, 12:42 PM)
lol, mind sharing what counter is that ?
*
Sorry, I prefer to keep that to myself. For privacy reason. Ha.
Milano7
post Feb 26 2019, 12:59 PM

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cleared all stocks and invest it all in o&g counter.
TSplumberly
post Feb 26 2019, 01:00 PM

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QUOTE(Milano7 @ Feb 26 2019, 12:59 PM)
cleared all stocks and invest it all in o&g counter.
*
The one I cleared is in O&G sector!
Boon3
post Feb 26 2019, 01:06 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Feb 26 2019, 12:32 PM)
First, let me recap, my intention is NOT to time the market, sell high and buy low. Just want to minimise my losses when the global recession hits. Ya ya, no one knows the timing when it will hit. I just want to get out before it hits. Then I should not be in shares? I beg to differ. Normal market fluctuations I can take. But this huge recession drop, I don't want to repeat the 1998 mistake. Learn from my mistake (I sold all my other shares before the 2008 crash except this one).

A quick overview on where I am after selling my shares ...

Attached Image

Lugi by about 3.7% as the price has gained in recent month.  bangwall.gif

No regret. Ha.  tongue.gif

After selling, dont feel that worried when I hear bad news on that industry, global economy, politics, Trump, BREXIT, Germany, Italy, China etc etc. Don't have to worry about this part of my retirement fund now.  rclxm9.gif

Learn and enjoy the ship journey as it gets into stormy sea! Ha.  :confused:  doh.gif

Cheerio.
*
Recession data is lagging. You do know that, right? The confirmation of any recession is based on past data. Since there is no confirmation, your market action of selling is based on the assumption that the upcoming economic data will show retraction. An assumption where one could be right or wrong. A guessing game where one attempts to time their market strategy in order to benefit their portfolio...

If this is not market timing, what is?

wink.gif

Boon3
post Feb 26 2019, 01:09 PM

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And of course, once again...

*wouldn't it be a much more logical if one sold BASED on fundamental reasons rather than assumption of market crash/recession?*
TSplumberly
post Feb 26 2019, 01:27 PM

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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Feb 26 2019, 01:09 PM)
And of course, once again...

*wouldn't it be a much more logical if one sold BASED on fundamental reasons rather than assumption of market crash/recession?*
*
That company is one of the big sisters and yet it dropped by 55% in 2008 crash.

During recession, fundamental skeleton can still break down, though not as much as those not so fundamentally strong. Eg Maybank took a hit as well.

Just my 2 cents.
TSplumberly
post Feb 26 2019, 01:30 PM

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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Feb 26 2019, 01:06 PM)
Recession data is lagging. You do know that, right? The confirmation of any recession is based on past data. Since there is no confirmation, your market action of selling is based on the assumption that the upcoming economic data will show retraction. An assumption where one could be right or wrong. A guessing game where one attempts to time their market strategy in order to benefit their portfolio...

If this is not market timing, what is?

wink.gif
*
Yes, lagging. Studied a few companies for the 2008 crash. Thus decided to get out when there are too many bad news here, bad news there, and not after it has happened.

Then it will be too late with the >50% drop in price. Like in 2008, I got out 1-2 years before the crash.
Krv23490
post Feb 26 2019, 01:33 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Feb 26 2019, 12:58 PM)
Sorry, I prefer to keep that to myself. For privacy reason. Ha.
*
LOL better dont need say anything in that case..

sharing a counter which you sold will make people know who you are ? Ha

you are a funny man, preaching people about recession and saying you are not timing the market but contradicting what you say in the same sentence. Haaa


Boon3
post Feb 26 2019, 01:48 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Feb 26 2019, 01:30 PM)
Yes, lagging. Studied a few companies for the 2008 crash. Thus decided to get out when there are too many bad news here, bad news there, and not after it has happened.

Then it will be too late with the >50% drop in price. Like in 2008, I got out 1-2 years before the crash.
*
If you had stick to fundamental reasons alone and not economic data, you probably would have cashed out in May....
TSplumberly
post Feb 26 2019, 01:57 PM

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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Feb 26 2019, 01:48 PM)
If you had stick to fundamental reasons alone and not economic data, you probably would have cashed out in May....
*
Wish I had. Then more $$$. Ha. Mine is more on global economic data as that company is fundamentally strong. Seeing some of the before 2008 crash patterns and thus I took the early exit.
TSplumberly
post Feb 26 2019, 01:57 PM

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QUOTE(Krv23490 @ Feb 26 2019, 01:33 PM)
LOL better dont need say anything in that case..

sharing a counter which you sold will make people know who you are ? Ha

you are a funny man, preaching people about recession and saying you are not timing the market but contradicting what you say in the same sentence. Haaa
*
No comment.
markedestiny
post Feb 26 2019, 02:08 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Feb 26 2019, 01:27 PM)
That company is one of the big sisters and yet it dropped by 55% in 2008 crash.

During recession, fundamental skeleton can still break down, though not as much as those not so fundamentally strong. Eg Maybank took a hit as well.

Just my 2 cents.
*
I am kinda agreed with his statement, when recession comes, there will be 'blood on the street' regardless how strong fundamentally the stock is until the market recovers.


Boon3
post Feb 26 2019, 02:10 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Feb 26 2019, 01:57 PM)
Wish I had. Then more $$$. Ha. Mine is more on global economic data as that company is fundamentally strong. Seeing some of the before 2008 crash patterns and thus I took the early exit.
*
Economic data is always fuzzy....
markedestiny
post Feb 26 2019, 02:13 PM

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QUOTE(Krv23490 @ Feb 26 2019, 01:33 PM)
LOL better dont need say anything in that case..

sharing a counter which you sold will make people know who you are ? Ha

you are a funny man, preaching people about recession and saying you are not timing the market but contradicting what you say in the same sentence. Haaa
*
There is no lesson to be learnt from knowing the exact counters he bought as his entrance/exit timing, market conditions, etc are too varied and besides, everyone has different investment strategy or risk tolerance mindset.
Boon3
post Feb 26 2019, 02:31 PM

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QUOTE(markedestiny @ Feb 26 2019, 02:08 PM)
I am kinda agreed with his statement, when recession comes, there will be 'blood on the street' regardless how strong fundamentally the stock is until the market recovers.
*
Of course that's true but that's only if and if the recession is proven to be true. Right?

The problem is the assumption that the recession will happen.......
markedestiny
post Feb 26 2019, 02:53 PM

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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Feb 26 2019, 02:31 PM)
Of course that's true but that's only if and if the recession is proven to be true. Right?

The problem is the assumption that the recession will happen.......
*
The assumptions could come from some of the recession indicators which one could make reference to, but these are not crystal ball to predict exactly when it will happen...so yeah, up to one's risk appetite to decide for himself.

Although TS tried seeking opinion on his exit strategy, the decision on this is solely his, and he has managed to exit just before the December rout lol rclxms.gif

If i recalled, TS has shared some of the criteria which seems to be the fundamentals of the stocks he bought and hence his decision on when to exit. It is just my opinion that his criteria has too many fundamentals to consider for each stocks but he managed anyway.

Looking back, I am interested if he ticked all the criteria he set for his stocks when he exit? biggrin.gif plumberly?
Krv23490
post Feb 26 2019, 03:34 PM

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QUOTE(markedestiny @ Feb 26 2019, 02:53 PM)
The assumptions could come from some of the recession indicators which one could make reference to, but these are not crystal ball to predict exactly when it will happen...so yeah,  up to one's risk appetite  to decide for himself.

Although TS tried seeking opinion on his exit strategy, the decision on this is solely his,  and he has managed to exit just before the December rout lol  rclxms.gif

If i recalled, TS has shared some of the criteria which seems to be the fundamentals of the stocks he bought and hence his decision on when to exit.  It is just my opinion that his criteria has too many fundamentals  to consider for each stocks but he managed anyway.

Looking back, I am interested if he ticked all the criteria he set for his stocks  when he exit?    biggrin.gif  plumberly?
*
That's why I ask for his stock which he exited, so we can see share knowledge and insight of his rationale as well. But oh well.. private.. lol

No harm I feel, but just to share knowledge
markedestiny
post Feb 26 2019, 03:44 PM

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QUOTE(Krv23490 @ Feb 26 2019, 03:34 PM)
That's why I ask for his stock which he exited, so we can see share knowledge and insight of his rationale as well. But oh well.. private.. lol

No harm I feel, but just to share knowledge
*
No, I am not asking about what his stocks were, but rather whether he ticked off the list of criteria he set before making his final decision to exit. smile.gif
Boon3
post Feb 26 2019, 04:05 PM

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QUOTE(markedestiny @ Feb 26 2019, 02:53 PM)
The assumptions could come from some of the recession indicators which one could make reference to, but these are not crystal ball to predict exactly when it will happen...so yeah,  up to one's risk appetite  to decide for himself.

Although TS tried seeking opinion on his exit strategy, the decision on this is solely his,  and he has managed to exit just before the December rout lol  rclxms.gif

If i recalled, TS has shared some of the criteria which seems to be the fundamentals of the stocks he bought and hence his decision on when to exit.  It is just my opinion that his criteria has too many fundamentals  to consider for each stocks but he managed anyway.

Looking back, I am interested if he ticked all the criteria he set for his stocks  when he exit?    biggrin.gif  plumberly?
*
Assumption is still assumption.....

Well, there are some who would argue that perhaps Nov/Dec would have been ideal time to buy, instead of selling. wink.gif

TSplumberly
post Feb 27 2019, 08:40 AM

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QUOTE(markedestiny @ Feb 26 2019, 02:53 PM)
The assumptions could come from some of the recession indicators which one could make reference to, but these are not crystal ball to predict exactly when it will happen...so yeah,  up to one's risk appetite  to decide for himself.

Although TS tried seeking opinion on his exit strategy, the decision on this is solely his,  and he has managed to exit just before the December rout lol  rclxms.gif

If i recalled, TS has shared some of the criteria which seems to be the fundamentals of the stocks he bought and hence his decision on when to exit.  It is just my opinion that his criteria has too many fundamentals  to consider for each stocks but he managed anyway.

Looking back, I am interested if he ticked all the criteria he set for his stocks  when he exit?    biggrin.gif  plumberly?
*
If you are referring to the table I used earlier, that one is to look ahead, the positives and negatives in selling the shares, then what can I do to maximise the positives and minimise the negatives. hmm.gif

Cannot get 100% gains as the market is beyond anyone's control. Just do my best in plotting the journey, asking others for insight, etc. icon_idea.gif

Knowing where I am now, would I have kept the shares and not sold them if I could turn back time? confused.gif

No. I may have lost 3% but I gained SWAN. Ha. rclxm9.gif

Some may disagree with my approach. Everyone can have his/her view (everyone can fly!). Just do your own analysis and then decide. doh.gif thumbsup.gif

The only time I can tell you we are in recession is AFTER the recession has started. devil.gif icon_rolleyes.gif


Boon3
post Feb 27 2019, 10:15 AM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Feb 27 2019, 08:40 AM)
If you are referring to the table I used earlier, that one is to look ahead, the positives and negatives in selling the shares, then what can I do to maximise the positives and minimise the negatives.  hmm.gif

Cannot get 100% gains as the market is beyond anyone's control. Just do my best in plotting the journey, asking others for insight, etc.  icon_idea.gif

Knowing where I am now, would I have kept the shares and not sold them if I could turn back time?  confused.gif

No. I may have lost 3% but I gained SWAN. Ha.  rclxm9.gif

Some may disagree with my approach. Everyone can have his/her view (everyone can fly!). Just do your own analysis and then decide.  doh.gif  thumbsup.gif

The only time I can tell you we are in recession is AFTER the recession has started.   devil.gif  icon_rolleyes.gif
*
I do believe you got it seriously wrong with your mindset. I've entered this discussion BECAUSE it was a 'fair' market strategy. Sell before a recession or sell before a market crash. It's a worthwhile discussion.

Now, your critics (me included) had brought before you the RISKS of such a strategy. A strategy which is based on economic data and factors. In which I have mentioned economic data is fuzzy and that recessionary data is lagging. You wouldn't know till it happen or NOT HAPPEN. And it's a known fact that economist gets the forecasts very so wrong so often.

For example..
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


So you want to USE the strategy of CLEARING STOCKS BEFORE THE COMING CRASH...

When would the crash happen? Is it certain it would happen? Or what we had seen last year was nothing but a mere correction of an extreme long bull?

This is MARKET TIMING AND IF THIS IS NOT WHAT IS THEN?

Yes?

Now, if you cannot fathom and understand market timing and even acknowledged the risk involved, what's the point of discussing then?

Oh, yes to each to their own. Their way, his way, her way, my way. Oh yes. No doubt.

But then, what's the point of the posting then?

The funniest thing is that you ended the post by stating 'The only time I can tell you we are in recession is AFTER the recession has started.' rolleyes.gif biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by Boon3: Feb 27 2019, 10:16 AM
Boon3
post Feb 27 2019, 10:21 AM

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By the way...

https://seekingalpha.com/article/3970998-us...ors-time-market

http://people.stern.nyu.edu/adamodar/New_H...gapproaches.htm

http://systemtradersuccess.com/the-use-of-...-market-timing/

There's even books...

https://www.amazon.com/Time-Markets-Technic...t/dp/0132931931

icon_rolleyes.gif
TSplumberly
post Feb 27 2019, 10:22 AM

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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Feb 27 2019, 10:15 AM)
I do believe you got it seriously wrong with your mindset. I've entered this discussion BECAUSE it was a 'fair' market strategy. Sell before a recession or sell before a market crash. It's a worthwhile discussion.

Now, your critics (me included) had brought before you the RISKS of such a strategy. A strategy which is based on economic data and factors. In which I have mentioned economic data is fuzzy and that recessionary data is lagging. You wouldn't know till it happen or NOT HAPPEN. And it's a known fact that economist gets the forecasts very so wrong so often.

For example..
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


So you want to USE the strategy of CLEARING STOCKS BEFORE THE COMING CRASH...

When would the crash happen? Is it certain it would happen? Or what we had seen last year was nothing but a mere correction of an extreme long bull?

This is MARKET TIMING AND IF THIS IS NOT WHAT IS THEN?

Yes?

Now, if you cannot fathom and understand market timing and even acknowledged the risk involved, what's the point of discussing then?

Oh, yes to each to their own. Their way, his way, her way, my way. Oh yes. No doubt.

But then, what's the point of the posting then?

The funniest thing is that you ended the post by stating 'The only time I can tell you we are in recession is AFTER the recession has started.'  rolleyes.gif  biggrin.gif
*
Fair comments.

Agree to disagree.

Maybe I should get into the comedian business with my sense of humour. Ha.

TSplumberly
post Feb 27 2019, 10:25 AM

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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Feb 27 2019, 10:21 AM)
Thanks.

Have seen 2 of the above. There are many others.


Boon3
post Feb 27 2019, 11:06 AM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Feb 27 2019, 10:25 AM)
Thanks.

Have seen 2 of the above. There are many others.
*
You are welcome.

Glad you realise and understand why we say you are timing the market.

Food for thought.

1. The last US recession. Was there not a clear sell sign one could use instead of using recessionary data?

2. That last recession, how long did it last? Compared to the long term SP chart? Wasn't it just a blip, looking back? Would a better strategy be holding the stocks for a longer term? (assuming that you are not a trader)

3. Again, with the help of back data and the long term SP chart. Stocks rebounded when? Didn't it not rebound during the midst of the recession?
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post Feb 27 2019, 01:27 PM

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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Feb 26 2019, 01:48 PM)
If you had stick to fundamental reasons alone and not economic data, you probably would have cashed out in May....
*
what were the signals/reasons available in May ?
Boon3
post Feb 27 2019, 02:35 PM

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QUOTE(spiderman17 @ Feb 27 2019, 01:27 PM)
what were the signals/reasons available in May ?
*
Well if you had stuck to earnings, one should have seen that valuations were rich, earnings multiples high, earnings growth were over extended and had signs of slowing down but market still wanted to assign insane high growth projections and with Trump having a hard on for trade wars, wasn't it time to take profits?
TSplumberly
post Feb 28 2019, 11:00 AM

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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Feb 27 2019, 11:06 AM)
You are welcome.

Glad you realise and understand why we say you are timing the market.

***  My interpretation of market timing is to buy low sell high (I may be wrong with my interpretation) - I sold during the decline from that peak (not at the peak) and no intention to buy that again. That is why I stuck to saying I wasnt market timing. If market timing is waiting for something and then buy or sell, then I am guilty. Ha. Then day traders are all market timing based on technical analysis, eg, buy/sell at the low and high supports.

***  I sold all Msian shares 1-2 years before the 2008 crash. Did not touch my overseas shares. As overseas shares are a different fish, asked here for advice/insight (broker's fees, exchange/tax implication, things not on my radar etc) as I planned to let go. After my recent experience, it was a non event, took only 3 days to sell and receive the money in the bank. It went rather well.

***  On reports saying market timing does not work (many brokerage fees, tax etc), I feel it is the same as saying to diversify, cost averaging etc. Even some excellent fund managers do not agree with diversification (eg Warren). I am a pig-headed guy, I tend to do my own analysis and then decide rather than just follow others. And I do make mistakes.

***  We can be arguing here till the sun extinguishes. Propose to agree to disagree due to different interpretation of the term. I know sifu has taken more salt than I have eaten rice! Ha.

Food for thought.

1. The last US recession. Was there not a clear sell sign one could use instead of using recessionary data?

*** Like to learn.

2. That last recession, how long did it last? Compared to the long term SP chart? Wasn't it just a blip, looking back? Would a better strategy be holding the stocks for a longer term? (assuming that you are not a trader)

***  In one of my previous graphs, it took more than 6 years for it to recover to the peak before the 2008 crash. I prefer not to go through this again, wasting years just for it to recover. If it recovered with a year or so, then I may just ride with it.

3. Again, with the help of back data and the long term SP chart. Stocks rebounded when? Didn't it not rebound during the midst of the recession?

***  Indexes may show a different faster recovery than individual companies like the one I sold.

*


***  Thanks for your time and challenges. That is one of the purposes of me starting this thread to challenge my tunnel vision and learning.

Boon3
post Feb 28 2019, 04:31 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Feb 28 2019, 11:00 AM)

*
QUOTE
***  My interpretation of market timing is to buy low sell high (I may be wrong with my interpretation) - I sold during the decline from that peak (not at the peak) and no intention to buy that again. That is why I stuck to saying I wasnt market timing. If market timing is waiting for something and then buy or sell, then I am guilty. Ha. Then day traders are all market timing based on technical analysis, eg, buy/sell at the low and high supports.


Do try search and research more on the topic market timing. Reason I highlight to you is NOT to say market timing doesn't work but to share the idea that market timing is a rather risky strategy, where one could easily be wrong as they could be correct.

QUOTE

1. The last US recession. Was there not a clear sell sign one could use instead of using recessionary data?

*** Like to learn.
The last US recession was from Dec 2007 to June 2009. That was the official number (after several revised figures, iirc). As you know it was caused by the subprime mortgage crisis. Now instead of focusing on the lagging recessionary figures, the problems in the US housing market DID not happen overnight. The warning signs were as far back as 2006. Even the stock market itself gave warning as early as end Nov 2006 (iirc). Focusing on the economics is like watching the forest and not focusing on the tree. And market valuation on a lot of stocks were far too optimistic back in early 2006 too.

QUOTE
3. Again, with the help of back data and the long term SP chart. Stocks rebounded when? Didn't it not rebound during the midst of the recession?

***  Indexes may show a different faster recovery than individual companies like the one I sold.


Of course, not all stock follow the index trend. There's always the exception. In any bull market, there's always a bad bear market stock (like Parkson for example) and in every bear market, there still could exist gems who beats the general market hands down... but this isn't what we are focusing on, right?




TSplumberly
post Mar 1 2019, 11:17 AM

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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Feb 28 2019, 04:31 PM)
Do try search and research more on  the topic market timing. Reason I highlight to you is NOT to say market timing doesn't work but to share the idea that market timing is a rather risky strategy, where one could easily be wrong as they could be correct.
The last US recession was from Dec 2007 to June 2009. That was the official number (after several revised figures, iirc). As you know it was caused by the subprime mortgage crisis. Now instead of focusing on the lagging recessionary figures, the problems in the US housing market DID not happen overnight. The warning signs were as far back as 2006. Even the stock market itself gave warning as early as end Nov 2006 (iirc). Focusing on the economics is like watching the forest and not focusing on the tree. And market valuation on a lot of stocks were far too optimistic back in early 2006 too.
Of course, not all stock follow the index trend. There's always the exception. In any bull market, there's always a bad bear market stock (like Parkson for example) and in every bear market, there still could exist gems who beats the general market hands down... but this isn't what we are focusing on, right?
*
Noted and thanks.
[Ancient]-XinG-
post Mar 1 2019, 02:08 PM

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Ok....

So sifu.

Stay invested for non market player peasent like me?
TSplumberly
post Mar 2 2019, 10:09 AM

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QUOTE(Ancient-XinG- @ Mar 1 2019, 02:08 PM)
Ok....

So sifu.

Stay invested for non market player peasent like me?
*
Though I have sold my shares, interested to learn from others as I may be a frog in a well, not knowing the real world outside. Ha.

Hope to get some sharing from friends here.

Cheerio.
TSplumberly
post Mar 3 2019, 10:13 AM

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Saw a TV report recently and yes, it was on one of my favourite subjects, the current touch and go volatile stock markets & economy. Ha.

Mentioned to review one's investment portfolio as we are now at the tail END of this EXTRA LONG CYCLE. Sensible and wise thing to do.

Try this quiz ….

Assume stock indices in the USA & Europe dropped by more than 13% overnight, what would you do the next morning?

AA
Stay calm and collected, do nothing, it will be OK days later. hmm.gif

BB
Wait for 2-5 days, get out if confirmed it is a real global crash (>20% in 2 or more major indices), stay put if it is just a correction. brows.gif

CC
Start selling some or all shares. bruce.gif

DD
Contact your best friend or fund manager for advice. icon_question.gif

EE
Demand DTM or PH to freeze KLCI till this storm is over cry.gif

FF
Review your homework on your top 10 companies for investing when the prices are right. rclxm9.gif

GG
???

Mind sharing your answer and why you selected that option? No right or wrong answer. Everyone is different, different situation, different needs, different views, etc.

Food/wine for thought …

LOOKING AHEAD is creating your own luck when preparation meets opportunities.

AWARENESS is the first step to improvement

ANALYSIS is the muscle of success

ACTION crosses the final hurdle to SUCCESS

. . . . . . . © A . . S i m p l e . . M a n


markedestiny
post Mar 3 2019, 02:07 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Mar 3 2019, 10:13 AM)
Saw a TV report recently and yes, it was on one of my favourite subjects,  the current touch and go volatile stock markets & economy. Ha.

Mentioned to review one's investment portfolio as we are now at the tail END of this EXTRA LONG CYCLE. Sensible and wise thing to do.

Try this quiz ….

Assume stock indices in the USA & Europe dropped by more than 13% overnight, what would you do the next morning?

AA
Stay calm and collected, do nothing, it will be OK days later.  hmm.gif
If the drop is too fast for me to react, I will stay put and do nothing. It may not be ok in days but months or years, will wait it out, no choice.

Wait for 2-5 days, get out if confirmed it is a real global crash (>20% in 2 or more major indices), stay put if it is just a correction.  brows.gif
In reality,  you won't have the luxury of 2-5 days to confirm; for example look at last December Xmas drop. It caught everyone off guard. But if you have stay put, the market will go back to normal as it is now

CC
Start selling some or all shares.  bruce.gif
Nope, see above

DD
Contact your best friend or fund manager for advice.  icon_question.gif
I think if you depend on others for opinions or decisions,  you may not have the knowledge & you may want to stick to index funds or etf only.  The market has an intrinsic tendency to transfer monies or riches from the unknowledgeable to the knowledgeable investors.

EE
Demand DTM or PH to freeze KLCI till this storm is over  cry.gif

FF
Review your homework on your top 10 companies for investing when the prices are right.  rclxm9.gif
Yes, currently doing this, looking for stocks which were heavily discounted

GG
???
Don't play margin or borrowings, if not gg

Mind sharing your answer and why you selected that option? No right or wrong answer. Everyone is different, different situation, different needs, different views, etc.

Food/wine for thought …

LOOKING AHEAD is creating your own luck when preparation meets opportunities.

AWARENESS is the first step to improvement

ANALYSIS is the muscle of success

ACTION crosses the final hurdle to SUCCESS

. . . . . . .  ©   A . . S i m p l e . .  M a n
*
My opinions in blue. Edited this, can't seem to get it right using mobile initially.

This post has been edited by markedestiny: Mar 4 2019, 09:32 AM
Krv23490
post Mar 3 2019, 05:32 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Mar 3 2019, 10:13 AM)
Saw a TV report recently and yes, it was on one of my favourite subjects,  the current touch and go volatile stock markets & economy. Ha.

Mentioned to review one's investment portfolio as we are now at the tail END of this EXTRA LONG CYCLE. Sensible and wise thing to do.

Try this quiz ….

Assume stock indices in the USA & Europe dropped by more than 13% overnight, what would you do the next morning?

AA
Stay calm and collected, do nothing, it will be OK days later.  hmm.gif

BB
Wait for 2-5 days, get out if confirmed it is a real global crash (>20% in 2 or more major indices), stay put if it is just a correction.  brows.gif

CC
Start selling some or all shares.  bruce.gif

DD
Contact your best friend or fund manager for advice.  icon_question.gif

EE
Demand DTM or PH to freeze KLCI till this storm is over  cry.gif

FF
Review your homework on your top 10 companies for investing when the prices are right.  rclxm9.gif

GG
???

Mind sharing your answer and why you selected that option? No right or wrong answer. Everyone is different, different situation, different needs, different views, etc.

Food/wine for thought …

LOOKING AHEAD is creating your own luck when preparation meets opportunities.

AWARENESS is the first step to improvement

ANALYSIS is the muscle of success

ACTION crosses the final hurdle to SUCCESS

. . . . . . .  ©  A . . S i m p l e . .  M a n
*
If dropped more than 13% overnight, will continue to pick up some more SP500 ETF and maybe some unit trusts. Not all in one lumpsump. Continue my weekly/monthly purchases Ha. And say wow TS , you are right in calling the recession all along


Boon3
post Mar 3 2019, 07:16 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Mar 1 2019, 11:17 AM)
Noted and thanks.
*
Let's look at some simple alternative. I had mentioned.. "If you had stick to fundamental reasons alone and not economic data, you probably would have cashed out in May...." in which I was asked "what were the signals/reasons available in May ?"

My reply was of course..

QUOTE(Boon3 @ Feb 27 2019, 02:35 PM)
Well if you had stuck to earnings, one should have seen that valuations were rich, earnings multiples high, earnings growth were over extended and had signs of slowing down but market still wanted to assign insane high growth projections and with Trump having a hard on for trade wars, wasn't it time to take profits?
*
Now of course talk is always cheap. Sometimes worth less than 3 sens.

Now I had actually posted several postings on the risks factor. There are several postings but let me highlight one dated April 2018. See post #1523 or you read post #1503 dated Mar 2018.

Would this be a better alternative than selling based on economic recession numbers in Dec 2018?


*discussion only. Not to say who is right or wrong*
Boon3
post Mar 3 2019, 07:18 PM

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Sorry 1503 should be 1507
TSplumberly
post Mar 3 2019, 07:23 PM

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QUOTE(Boon3 @ Mar 3 2019, 07:16 PM)
Let's look at some simple alternative. I had mentioned.. "If you had stick to fundamental reasons alone and not economic data, you probably would have cashed out in May...."  in which I was asked "what were the signals/reasons available in May ?"

My reply was of course..
Now of course talk is always cheap. Sometimes worth less than 3 sens.

Now I had actually posted several postings on the risks factor. There are several postings but let me highlight one dated April  2018. See post #1523 or you read post #1503 dated Mar 2018.

Would this be a better alternative than selling based on economic recession numbers in Dec 2018?
*discussion only. Not to say who is right or wrong*
*
Thanks.

"Would this be a better alternative than selling based on economic recession numbers in Dec 2018?"

To me, Dec was just the cloudy rainy sky before the coming big storm. Ha. That is, not recession, just correction. Rightly or wrongly, I use >20% drop as the yardstick for recession.

P/S I get this feeling that you think I now regret selling it in Dec. No, happy now that I don't worry about that portion of my retirement fund dropping by 50% should recession appear in the coming weeks/months. Really. Still OK if the next recession only appears 1-2 years later. That capital preservation is priority 1 for me now.

This post has been edited by plumberly: Mar 3 2019, 09:00 PM
TSplumberly
post Mar 3 2019, 08:53 PM

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QUOTE(markedestiny @ Mar 3 2019, 02:07 PM)
My opinions in bold. Edited the bold fonts, can't seem to get it right using mobile
*
Ya, sometimes with problems when using mobile.

Don't quite get it which is your preference when there is a >13% dip in major indices though you have covered all.

Cheerio.
TSplumberly
post Mar 3 2019, 09:26 PM

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QUOTE(Krv23490 @ Mar 3 2019, 05:32 PM)
If dropped more than 13% overnight, will continue to pick up some more SP500 ETF and maybe some unit trusts.  Not all in one lumpsump. Continue my weekly/monthly purchases Ha. And say wow TS , you are right in calling the recession all along
*
Saw a graph showing the relationship between stock, economy and real estate (with real estate lagging last). So maybe wait for a bit longer before getting REIT UT? confused.gif
Krv23490
post Mar 3 2019, 10:16 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Mar 3 2019, 09:26 PM)
Saw a graph showing the relationship between stock, economy and real estate (with real estate lagging last). So maybe wait for a bit longer before getting REIT UT?  confused.gif
*
Most UT will be emerging markets or whichever market (maybe a bond fund as well) i cant cover via ETFs .

Ray Dalio, manager of the world’s biggest hedge fund, lowers his odds of a recession.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/why-were-les...ging-ray-dalio/

Cheerio


markedestiny
post Mar 3 2019, 11:04 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Mar 3 2019, 08:53 PM)
Ya, sometimes with problems when using mobile.

Don't quite get it which is your preference when there is a >13% dip in major indices though you have covered all.

Cheerio.
*
You mistaken me with another person, it's not me who said that 13%. Curious too, why 13% is the trigger point.
Boon3
post Mar 4 2019, 07:54 AM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Mar 3 2019, 07:23 PM)
Thanks.

"Would this be a better alternative than selling based on economic recession numbers in Dec 2018?"

To me, Dec was just the cloudy rainy sky before the coming big storm. Ha. That is, not recession, just correction. Rightly or wrongly, I use >20%  drop as the yardstick for recession.

P/S I get this feeling that you think I now regret selling it in Dec. No, happy now that I don't worry about that portion of my retirement fund dropping by 50% should recession appear in the coming weeks/months. Really. Still OK if the next recession only appears 1-2 years later. That capital preservation is priority 1 for me now.
*
Huh.

All I did was share 2 conclusive evidence that one doesn't need to rely on economic recessionary figures. First one was for avoiding the recession caused by the subprimw crisis. Second one was one could easily, easily sold out in May 2018.

End.
TSplumberly
post Mar 4 2019, 08:22 AM

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QUOTE(markedestiny @ Mar 3 2019, 11:04 PM)
You mistaken me with another person, it's not me who said that 13%. Curious too, why 13% is the trigger point.
*
13% came from me. I used that in the scenario to see how people will react at the start of a storm.
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post Mar 4 2019, 09:14 AM

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QUOTE(Krv23490 @ Mar 3 2019, 10:16 PM)
Most UT will be emerging markets or whichever market (maybe a bond fund as well) i cant cover via ETFs .

Ray Dalio, manager of the world’s biggest hedge fund, lowers his odds of a recession.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/why-were-les...ging-ray-dalio/

Cheerio
*
Thanks.

Got his book, find it hard to read. Saw his 2018 interview on Bloomberg. Yes, he doesnt expect recession in 2018-2019.

Looks like you are into ETF. Maybe I can learn from you on ETF.
markedestiny
post Mar 4 2019, 09:33 AM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Mar 4 2019, 08:22 AM)
13% came from me. I used that in the scenario to see how people will react at the start of a storm.
*
Ok, now I have edited the post again, as in blue fonts.
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post Mar 4 2019, 09:44 PM

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QUOTE(123GoldCome @ Mar 4 2019, 05:03 PM)
It has been two months of “happy new year” for U.S.-stock fund investors.

Thanks to the surprisingly strong start to 2019 for U.S. stocks, stock funds are shaking off last year’s slide, which had pushed the average diversified U.S.-stock fund to a decline of 7.7% for the year. It has all turned around: Such funds posted a return of 3.7% for February and were up nearly 13% for the first two months of this year, according to Thomson Reuters Lipper data.
*
TSplumberly
post Mar 7 2019, 03:21 PM

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Got this from a friend. Happy reading!

https://www.ubs.com/global/en/wealth-manage...-guidebook.html

How to prepare for the next bear market

What are the characteristics, and how can you protect your portfolio?
TSplumberly
post Mar 7 2019, 03:21 PM

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deleted


This post has been edited by plumberly: Mar 7 2019, 03:21 PM
Krv23490
post Mar 7 2019, 03:32 PM

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While now late cycle, we view the current growth, inflation, and monetary policy environment as still supportive for risk assets. In our tactical asset allocation, we maintain our overweight to global equities and emerging market equities on the view that the markets are pricing a worse outcome for US and global growth that we expect.

Source - UBS as well
TSplumberly
post Mar 9 2019, 09:17 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Mar 7 2019, 03:21 PM)
Got this from a friend. Happy reading!

https://www.ubs.com/global/en/wealth-manage...-guidebook.html

How to prepare for the next bear market

What are the characteristics, and how can you protect your portfolio?
*
Using the data in that report, played around using average and 1 standard deviation to estimate the following peaks and troughs. See photo below.

Attached Image

P1 and T1 are already over. Waiting to see P2 and T2 in 2011 and 2022.

Not saying this estimate is good but it is only 1, 2 & 3 years out (ignoring the 6 years) in back testing.

Finally, this is only my estimate. So dont follow it 100%. Only as a guide, food for thought.

P/S Sorry for not being clear earlier. It is not the specific date but the period from P1 to P2 as the estimated period for the final cycle peak. Ditto for T1 to T2. bangwall.gif doh.gif cool2.gif

This post has been edited by plumberly: Mar 12 2019, 07:24 PM
foofoosasa
post Mar 12 2019, 05:44 PM

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QUOTE(foofoosasa @ Aug 29 2018, 04:37 PM)
don't confuse it with Bursa.

Seriously I don't see bursa will enjoy the last bull run. ( In my opinion )
*
Hmm guess my prediction somehow true hmmm...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/201...s-doubts-emerge
Krv23490
post Mar 18 2019, 04:34 PM

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China stocks near 6.5 month high


https://www.thestar.com.my/business/busines...er-firms-shine/
[Ancient]-XinG-
post Mar 18 2019, 05:51 PM

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Hang seng and cn all fly high.

Does 2018 it self qualify for a "crisis"?
buncho89
post Mar 23 2019, 04:54 PM

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something something inversion yield curve...recession incoming?
TSplumberly
post Mar 23 2019, 06:29 PM

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https://www.npr.org/2019/03/22/706073410/st...cession-warning

"We don't see that occur that often, but when it does, it's almost always bad news," said Campbell Harvey, a professor of finance at Duke University.

That's why warning lights started flashing Friday morning when the yield on the 10-year Treasury note slipped below that of the three-month bill. The last time that happened was just before the Great Recession.

Harvey's been keeping a close eye on these rare, "inverted" yield curves for more than 30 years, and treats them as a kind of early warning signal.

"My indicator has successfully predicted four of the last four recessions," he said, "including a pretty important call before the global financial crisis."

Harvey won't actually forecast a recession unless the yield curve stays inverted for at least three months. But even a flat curve — in which long-term yields are just slightly above short-term yields — could be an indicator the economy is losing steam.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Saw another inverted yield study with some detail on the frequency and its aftermath. Can't find it now.

Bad news? No. I have sold my important shares. Ha. Sorry to be naughty. Ha. That is one of the reasons why I decided to sell early to avoid worrying on bad news like this, sleepless nights asking myself should I sell the next day, next week etc.

** Norway pension fund (the world largest) is planning to sell its O & G shares.

** N Korea and USA denuclearisation didnt go as expected.

** China and USA trade is not progressing as what DT said

** BREXIT is progressing many many km but just going round in a circle.

** you fill in the blank


Wait and see .......

P/S Saw this weeks before ..

Attached Image

Look at the deflation line in the last 2009 recession and compare with now. Both negative. Maybe just coincidence.

This post has been edited by plumberly: Mar 23 2019, 06:41 PM
Krv23490
post Mar 23 2019, 07:17 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Mar 23 2019, 06:29 PM)
https://www.npr.org/2019/03/22/706073410/st...cession-warning

"We don't see that occur that often, but when it does, it's almost always bad news," said Campbell Harvey, a professor of finance at Duke University.

That's why warning lights started flashing Friday morning when the yield on the 10-year Treasury note slipped below that of the three-month bill. The last time that happened was just before the Great Recession.

Harvey's been keeping a close eye on these rare, "inverted" yield curves for more than 30 years, and treats them as a kind of early warning signal.

"My indicator has successfully predicted four of the last four recessions," he said, "including a pretty important call before the global financial crisis."

Harvey won't actually forecast a recession unless the yield curve stays inverted for at least three months. But even a flat curve — in which long-term yields are just slightly above short-term yields — could be an indicator the economy is losing steam.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Saw another inverted yield study with some detail on the frequency and its aftermath. Can't find it now.

Bad news? No. I have sold my important shares. Ha. Sorry to be naughty. Ha. That is one of the reasons why I decided to sell early to avoid worrying on bad news like this, sleepless nights asking myself should I sell the next day, next week etc.

**  Norway pension fund (the world largest) is planning to sell its O & G shares.

**  N Korea and USA denuclearisation didnt go as expected.

**  China and USA trade is not progressing as what DT said

**  BREXIT is progressing many many km but just going round in a circle.

**  you fill in the blank
Wait and see .......

P/S  Saw this weeks before ..

Attached Image

Look at the deflation line in the last 2009 recession and compare with now. Both negative. Maybe just coincidence.
*
Looking forward to collect some at a discount then! hehe
[Ancient]-XinG-
post Mar 23 2019, 10:42 PM

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QUOTE(buncho89 @ Mar 23 2019, 04:54 PM)
something something inversion yield curve...recession incoming?
*
QUOTE(plumberly @ Mar 23 2019, 06:29 PM)
https://www.npr.org/2019/03/22/706073410/st...cession-warning

"We don't see that occur that often, but when it does, it's almost always bad news," said Campbell Harvey, a professor of finance at Duke University.

That's why warning lights started flashing Friday morning when the yield on the 10-year Treasury note slipped below that of the three-month bill. The last time that happened was just before the Great Recession.

Harvey's been keeping a close eye on these rare, "inverted" yield curves for more than 30 years, and treats them as a kind of early warning signal.

"My indicator has successfully predicted four of the last four recessions," he said, "including a pretty important call before the global financial crisis."

Harvey won't actually forecast a recession unless the yield curve stays inverted for at least three months. But even a flat curve — in which long-term yields are just slightly above short-term yields — could be an indicator the economy is losing steam.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Saw another inverted yield study with some detail on the frequency and its aftermath. Can't find it now.

Bad news? No. I have sold my important shares. Ha. Sorry to be naughty. Ha. That is one of the reasons why I decided to sell early to avoid worrying on bad news like this, sleepless nights asking myself should I sell the next day, next week etc.

**  Norway pension fund (the world largest) is planning to sell its O & G shares.

**  N Korea and USA denuclearisation didnt go as expected.

**  China and USA trade is not progressing as what DT said

**  BREXIT is progressing many many km but just going round in a circle.

**  you fill in the blank
Wait and see .......

P/S  Saw this weeks before ..

Attached Image

Look at the deflation line in the last 2009 recession and compare with now. Both negative. Maybe just coincidence.
*
This theory have been flying around since last October.
Surprisingly, the market does fluctuate a lot across the last few month.

And reading back those finance analyst back in June to December. Esp on end Dec and early Jan, making me highly doubt the credential of them.....

As the previous member mentioned, the previous trigger wont trigger the "incoming" crisis. But what will the trigger point this time?

Trade? Brexit? NK US? All are pointing each other but despite dragging so long with no outcome, the market still going up and down like nobody business.

I think you have been wwnt tru 07 08, was the market like that too before falling off the cliff? I mean the sentiment around? How is the environment?
I was too young then. I dig back only found the week lehman tumble, the whole world shock. But I suppose weeks or months before the market already shaken abit? Wasnt much expose because that time internet is yet a "thing" like now.
Krv23490
post Mar 23 2019, 10:58 PM

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Found this on Reddit

Lots of talk about how to react to today's 3 month/10 year yield inversion and that a recession will be imminent in the next 12 - 24 months.

While that is quite possible, I implore investors to take yield curve inversions with a large dose of patience. You don't need to move your money on Monday, or even next week, or even next month.

While this a bit of pattern seeking that may not hold up again, I do ascribe to pattern seeking more than "this time it's different". Those are always famous last words at the end of bull markets.

Anyways, see the following 3 month/10 year curve and corresponding S&P 500 futures movement.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/T10Y3M

https://finviz.com/futures_charts.ashx?t=ES&p=m1

You will notice a few things. First off, is the possibility that a short term inversion can happen and not spell any doom. There were very brief inversions that took place in September 1998, April 2000, and January 2006. In the case of 98 and 2006 there was considerable appreciation in stock afterwards. In 2000, April would have indeed timed the high well but there was a considerable distribution phase if you waited for more considerable yield inversion.

You will notice that a better signal is to wait and see a bit with the yield curve. Typically the recessionary signal will see an extended inversion that is deep and lasts for several months, then as the curve steepens again recession hits. Waiting as much as one month for full inversion will give you higher confidence in the signal. This gets you out in August 2000, and August 2006.

Corresponding with a move to bonds, waiting for a full month does seem to lose some appreciation in capital values, but you will still make out well with a bit of delay in transitioning to a risk-off strategy.

https://finviz.com/futures_charts.ashx?t=ES&p=m1

So looking at the present day, we have the following factors:

Large transition into bonds as investors go risk-off for a Brexit that may not actually happen

Possible US-China trade deal as soon as April

Fed that has made a commitment to a more dovish transition the remainder of the year.

While all these factors may end up being too little too late to prevent an extended inversion and recession, I believe it is certainly prudent to give such scenario's a bit of time to play out. Any quick movement on a trade deal or Brexit news could quickly make this inversion look more like 1998 than 2000. I do think the Fed is a bit too little too late on the dovish turn, but we shall see. The tech bubble was ultimately kickstarted in 1998 when Greenspan lowered the FFR in response to flat yields. Today's Fed is not taking an accomodative stance to that degree.

The reasoning for recession with yield curves is a rather simple one, there's no term premium for bank lenders and this dries up lending markets. Think of it this way, if lending dries up for a few days it's not a huge deal. If lending dries up for a few months, that is what causes a lagging recessionary effect.

In any case, this is just to reinforce that you should not panic and give yourself time to rationally make adjustments to your portfolio, if any at all.

It's also important to note that I believe such a strategy did not work out well in 1990 to my knowledge. So depending on your timelines and risk dependence, certainly there is no guarantee that stocks see an extended decline you would benefit from avoiding. I believe the 1990 bear market was rather quick and shallow, just slightly worse than what happened from October - December 2018.

https://www.reddit.com/r/investing/comments...sort=confidence
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post Mar 26 2019, 11:03 AM

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The Feds move quite fast this time. They quickly stopped increasing rates. I believed back in 2008/9,... the interest rate was still high ?

Second comment is I think a recession will only happen this time round if a 'shocking event' takes place, something like what happened to Lehman Bros back in 2008/9.

Third comment would be : the mkt WILL BOUNCE BACK. Just ride it through.

Hence, I intend to continue my mkt activities based on the above concepts.
woonsc
post Mar 26 2019, 04:55 PM

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QUOTE(Hansel @ Mar 26 2019, 11:03 AM)
The Feds move quite fast this time. They quickly stopped increasing rates. I believed back in 2008/9,... the interest rate was still high ?

Second comment is I think a recession will only happen this time round if a 'shocking event' takes place, something like what happened to Lehman Bros back in 2008/9.

Third comment would be : the mkt WILL BOUNCE BACK. Just ride it through.

Hence, I intend to continue my mkt activities based on the above concepts.
*
Buy Buy Buy
TSplumberly
post Mar 27 2019, 04:39 PM

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Saw some data on historical inverted yield.

Attached Image

Using average and 1 std deviation on these data, estimates of likely recession timing IY1 and IY2 are included in the previous graph.

Attached Image

Interesting . . . . .
[Ancient]-XinG-
post Mar 28 2019, 08:31 AM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Mar 27 2019, 04:39 PM)
Saw some data on historical inverted yield.

Attached Image

Using average and 1 std deviation on these data, estimates of likely recession timing IY1 and IY2 are included in the previous graph.

Attached Image

Interesting . . . . .
*
Hmm meaning 2020?

TSplumberly
post Mar 28 2019, 10:58 AM

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QUOTE(Ancient-XinG- @ Mar 28 2019, 08:31 AM)
Hmm meaning 2020?
*
If the inverted yield data is valid/applicable/normal distribution etc, then with

** 68% probability (1 standard deviation), the recession may hit us by May 2020
** 95% probability (2 standard deviations), the recession may hit us by Oct 2020

DISCLAIMER : Take the above with a tonne of salt. devil.gif icon_question.gif doh.gif sweat.gif thumbup.gif
markedestiny
post Mar 28 2019, 11:09 AM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Mar 28 2019, 10:58 AM)
If the inverted yield data is valid/applicable/normal distribution etc, then with

** 68% probability (1 standard deviation), the recession may hit us by May 2020
** 95% probability (2 standard deviations), the recession may hit us by Oct 2020

DISCLAIMER : Take the above with a tonne of salt.  devil.gif  icon_question.gif  doh.gif  sweat.gif  thumbup.gif
*
Did the inverted curve stayed longer than 10days? If not, the above still applicable? devil.gif
TSplumberly
post Mar 28 2019, 12:40 PM

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QUOTE(markedestiny @ Mar 28 2019, 11:09 AM)
Did the inverted curve stayed longer than 10days?  If not, the above still applicable?  devil.gif
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Tak tahu lah.
ViktorJ
post Mar 28 2019, 12:51 PM

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Disclaimer: I am not contradicting anyone here, my personal stance is pretty bearish. This is just for purely academic/discussion purposes.

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4251345-yi...me-highs-stocks <--- talking about how inaccurate inverted yield curves are

markedestiny
post Mar 28 2019, 01:55 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Mar 28 2019, 12:40 PM)
Tak tahu lah.
*
For the 3m/10y inverted curve to be an accurate predicative recession tool, some analysts pointed out it has to stay inverted for weeks or one good month to begin your countdown....

Also the 3m/1y curve is supposedly widely used in US banks, so this could be a self fulfilling prediction.


markedestiny
post Mar 28 2019, 01:59 PM

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QUOTE(ViktorJ @ Mar 28 2019, 12:51 PM)
Disclaimer: I am not contradicting anyone here, my personal stance is pretty bearish. This is just for purely academic/discussion purposes.

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4251345-yi...me-highs-stocks  <--- talking about how inaccurate inverted yield curves are
*
I can't seem to find the article content highlighting the duration of the inverted curve for it to be effective, so take it with a pinch of salt.
TSplumberly
post Mar 28 2019, 02:57 PM

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QUOTE(ViktorJ @ Mar 28 2019, 12:51 PM)
Disclaimer: I am not contradicting anyone here, my personal stance is pretty bearish. This is just for purely academic/discussion purposes.

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4251345-yi...me-highs-stocks  <--- talking about how inaccurate inverted yield curves are
*
Good to see another bear in this cave! a.

Mind sharing what you have prepared for the coming winter season, why etc. Good to learn from others.

ViktorJ
post Mar 28 2019, 03:05 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Mar 28 2019, 02:57 PM)
Good to see another bear in this cave! a.

Mind sharing what you have prepared for the coming winter season, why etc. Good to learn from others.
*
Apart from a few non index linked small caps (I dont believe they will fall with the broader market), I am bearish on oil, so mostly holding dollar and treasuries, for shopping later.
TSplumberly
post Mar 28 2019, 03:13 PM

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QUOTE(ViktorJ @ Mar 28 2019, 03:05 PM)
Apart from a few non index linked small caps (I dont believe they will fall with the broader market), I am bearish on oil, so mostly holding dollar and treasuries, for shopping later.
*
Thanks.

AA
For the small caps, how did they cop in the last recession? Small drops? I thought small caps are volatile in winter season.

BB
Why bearish on oil? I am bearish on oil too. Just curious.

Thanks.
Krv23490
post Mar 28 2019, 03:17 PM

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My stance is slightly bearish as well but i dont think i will liquidate most of my holdings. What i have done is increase my cash position and dump more into local bond funds. When a big correction appears, i am looking to enter more into index funds !

Exciting times ahead
TSplumberly
post Mar 28 2019, 03:21 PM

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QUOTE(Krv23490 @ Mar 28 2019, 03:17 PM)
My stance is slightly bearish as well but i dont think i will liquidate most of my holdings. What i have done is increase my cash position and dump more into local bond funds. When  a big correction appears, i am looking to enter more into index funds !

Exciting times ahead
*
The cave has been rather lonely. Good to see another bear here. Ha.

How will you gauge when the big correction has arrived? News report, your own 20 or x% dip in KLCI, DJIA etc? Or other method?


ViktorJ
post Mar 28 2019, 03:48 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Mar 28 2019, 03:13 PM)
Thanks.

AA
For the small caps, how did they cop in the last recession? Small drops? I thought small caps are volatile in winter season.

BB
Why bearish on oil? I am bearish on oil too. Just curious.

Thanks.
*
I think they are volatile in general. They did OK the last round, I think some stocks are far more news and regulation driven than overall sentiment.

I think oil is very heavily driven by market demand sentiment. And I think ringgit is still somewhat pegged to oil prices. Oil companies have certainly not recovered since the last time it went kaput. Still retrenching.
cherroy
post Mar 28 2019, 04:43 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Mar 28 2019, 03:13 PM)
Thanks.

AA
For the small caps, how did they cop in the last recession? Small drops? I thought small caps are volatile in winter season.

BB
Why bearish on oil? I am bearish on oil too. Just curious.

Thanks.
*
Small/mid cap in property sector already dropped quite significantly, many already traded at significant discount to its NAV, if drop further may trigger privatisation interest particularly those without debt one. (already did, Daiman, SPB)

Big cap or small cap is not the key during recession, but level of debt and cashflow.
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post Mar 28 2019, 06:30 PM

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QUOTE(ViktorJ @ Mar 28 2019, 03:48 PM)
I think they are volatile in general. They did OK the last round, I think some stocks are far more news and regulation driven than overall sentiment.

I think oil is very heavily driven by market demand sentiment. And I think ringgit is still somewhat pegged to oil prices. Oil companies have certainly not recovered since the last time it went kaput. Still retrenching.
*
I was bullish on O & G some 10 years back, hoping for the price to soar many years later for my retirement, driven mainly from the depleting O & G reserves, jacking up the prices.

But now, a different outlook.

My bearish look at O & G (a sunset industry) is mainly from:

** the shift to EV in EU, China etc in the coming 10-20 years
** Norway pension fund (world's biggest) is working on selling its shares in O & G (they have the expertise to know better than me. Ha)
** even Shell has started operating some EV stations in EU, and also its vision shift from O & G to global energy
** (1 or 2 others I forgot now).

Something weird is happening globally now

** DT started the anti globalisation train
** Apple shifting to service sector
** Shell shifting its vision
** etc

Signs of matured/decline stage for some industries?

More changes to come I guess.

This post has been edited by plumberly: Mar 28 2019, 07:30 PM
TSplumberly
post Mar 28 2019, 06:33 PM

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QUOTE(cherroy @ Mar 28 2019, 04:43 PM)
Small/mid cap in property sector already dropped quite significantly, many already traded at significant discount to its NAV, if drop further may trigger privatisation interest particularly those without debt one. (already did, Daiman, SPB)

Big cap or small cap is not the key during recession, but level of debt and cashflow.
*
Thanks Sifu.

Sorry, I was thinking of start up companies when I mentioned small caps where they do not have strong cash flow in the early phase of the companies. Thus the volatility when things started to get stormy.


cherroy
post Mar 29 2019, 09:43 AM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Mar 28 2019, 06:30 PM)
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

*
EV is not the game changer for O&G, shale oil is.

EV won't replace conventional gasoline engine right now (at least within 5-10 years time) and diesel engine (for truck, EV won't able to do this for time being).
The demand for oil is still there.

The drop of oil price is because abundance supply particular due to surge in shale oil supply.

Those crushed O&G stocks generally have similarity between them
1) Highly geared
2) Unsustainable cashflow
3) Service or relied on contract job, whereby margin being squeezed.
4) Over-expansion during oil price boom time.

Those upstream and having own oil field one, generally still doing reasonably ok.

TSplumberly
post Mar 29 2019, 11:54 AM

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QUOTE(cherroy @ Mar 29 2019, 09:43 AM)
EV is not the game changer for O&G, shale oil is.

EV won't replace conventional gasoline engine right now (at least within 5-10 years time) and diesel engine (for truck, EV won't able to do this for time being).
The demand for oil is still there.

The drop of oil price is because abundance supply particular due to surge in shale oil supply.

Those crushed O&G stocks generally have similarity between them
1) Highly geared
2) Unsustainable cashflow
3) Service or relied on contract job, whereby margin being squeezed.
4) Over-expansion during oil price boom time.

Those upstream and having own oil field one, generally still doing reasonably ok.
*
Noted and thanks Sifu.

Propose to agree to disagree on the O & G outlook. Some big industry players are adjusting their outlook focus.

I read that it was the OPXX group dropping the oil price years back trying to kick shale oil producers out of the market to make it uneconomical for them to stay in operation with the low oil price. The cut off price for shale oil producers to stay in production was around US$40 -50 per barrel, if my memory cells are doing ok. Agree that over supply can drive price lower.

Some years back on the EV impact on O & G industry discussion, a friend raised that petrol/diesel were not the main revenue earners. About 30% on the company I studied. Big, small, no impact?

My gut feel said to seriously study the impact as that is part of my retirement fund.

Last year, saw a TV report on the exponential growth in EV vehicle usage around the world in the coming 10 years. True or not remains to be seen.

A spin-off from this EV thing is the corresponding huge demand for lithium car batteries if EV takes hold. Cobalt, nickel etc will be very good investment should EV story hold true. Unfortunately, major EV players are already securing their holds on the main raw materials (eg China). But keeping my eyes open on ETF related to EV industry.

Cheerio.







Krv23490
post Mar 29 2019, 02:03 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Mar 28 2019, 06:30 PM)
I was bullish on O & G some 10 years back, hoping for the price to soar many years later for my retirement, driven mainly from the depleting O & G reserves, jacking up the prices.

But now, a different outlook.

My bearish look at O & G (a sunset industry) is mainly from:

** the shift to EV in EU, China etc in the coming 10-20 years
** Norway pension fund (world's biggest) is working on selling its shares in O & G (they have the expertise to know better than me. Ha)
** even Shell has started operating some EV stations in EU, and also its vision shift from O & G to global energy
** (1 or 2 others I forgot now).

Something weird is happening globally now

** DT started the anti globalisation train
** Apple shifting to service sector
** Shell shifting its vision
** etc

Signs of matured/decline stage for some industries?

More changes to come I guess.
*
Very interesting discussion!

Yes , the world is changing. But i do think it will take awhile for oil/fossil fuel to be irrelevant. The shift to EV is there but i will take a very long time till we dont need oil anymore. Regarding your point about GPFG, yes they are the world's biggest 1 trillion in assets but their stake in O&G is 37 billion. News Headlines is for them to catch attention of everyone only. They are reducing their exposure to oil and gas as their main source of 'income' is through oil and gas. As they said, their divestment is to protect their wealth and not a judgement about the future price of oil.

The only direct O&G exposure i have is Hibiscus Petroleum and plan to hold it for a long time coming.


Regarding your other posts about ETF, i too was monitoring Global X Lithium ETF (LIT) forawhile when TESLA was coming up back then but luckily stayed away as it dropped 25% in 2018.

Since you a strong bear of oil. Are you holding on to RM or converting it to other currency as of course our RM is strongly correlated to the price of oil?

Cheerio



cherroy
post Mar 29 2019, 02:59 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Mar 29 2019, 11:54 AM)
Some years back on the EV impact on O & G industry discussion, a friend raised that petrol/diesel were not the main revenue earners. About 30% on the company I studied. Big, small, no impact?

My gut feel said to seriously study the impact as that is part of my retirement fund.

Last year, saw a TV report on the exponential growth in EV vehicle usage around the world in the coming 10 years. True or not remains to be seen.

A spin-off from this EV thing is the corresponding huge demand for lithium car batteries if EV takes hold. Cobalt, nickel etc will be very good investment should EV story hold true. Unfortunately, major EV players are already securing their holds on the main raw materials (eg China). But keeping my eyes open on ETF related to EV industry.

Cheerio.
*
Until EV become price competitive, conventional fossil engine is here to stay.
Not to mention, EV has problem to replace diesel powerful engine.

EV is not just about EV alone, you need charging station, and time consuming to charge aka various condition or product environment to flourish.

Petrol engine, no petrol, jump pump in a min, you can travel again for next 300Km, EV simply doesn't has this conveniences.
Stuck in traffic jam for hours, then battery died down, need to tow away... laugh.gif

Unless we have breakthrough in battery technology, which has been reaching bottleneck stage since decade ago.
See, how we still need power bank, just for smart phone alone, despite various breakthrough in semi-conductor that consuming less and less voltage/current already.

Also, EV plastic components all made up from polymer, and polymer origin from fossil oil.

O&G is still a huge industry, just not as lucrative compared to years back, and oil is still plentiful around. The myth the world running out of oil that has been spreaded 10 to 20 years back has been debunked.

For retirement investment planning, it is all about diversification, it is a bit risky to bang on a few sector to look for return.
TSplumberly
post Mar 29 2019, 07:45 PM

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deleted

This post has been edited by plumberly: Mar 29 2019, 08:26 PM
TSplumberly
post Mar 29 2019, 08:28 PM

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QUOTE(Krv23490 @ Mar 29 2019, 02:03 PM)
Very interesting discussion!

Yes , the world is changing. But i do think it will take awhile for oil/fossil fuel to be irrelevant. The shift to EV is there but i will take a very long time till we dont need oil anymore. Regarding your point about GPFG, yes they are the world's biggest 1 trillion in assets but their stake in O&G is 37 billion. News Headlines is for them to catch attention of everyone only. They are reducing their exposure to oil and gas as their main source of 'income' is through oil and gas. As they said, their divestment is to protect their wealth and not a judgement about the future price of oil.

The only direct O&G exposure i have is Hibiscus Petroleum and plan to hold it for a long time coming.
Regarding your other posts about ETF, i too was monitoring Global X Lithium ETF (LIT) forawhile when TESLA was coming up back then but luckily stayed away as it dropped 25% in 2018.

Since you a strong bear of oil. Are you holding on to RM or converting it to other currency as of course our RM is strongly correlated to the price of oil?

Cheerio
*
Whether that fund is going green and thus dropping O & G shares or they prefer not to ride the O & G roller coaster is anyone guess.

Mind sharing why Hibiscus P? Isn't it tied in to what Petronas is willing to give? Or the link is already solid gold? Ha. I will do a quick check for my own interest.

On EV ETF, my plan is to get in post this coming recession and AFTER some confirmed global recovery signs are there. Not an issue to me that I do not get in at the bottom. SWAN knowing my investment is growing during the post recession recovery period, rather than getting in now on the EV ETF as the current global outlook is dicey.

I am mostly in RM. Why? A strong believer in Msian govt and outlook? 50-50 lah. Foreign exchange is an unknown alien thing to me. Too risky for me without any knowledge. Thus prefer to stay out. Yes, this will affect my overall return (Msian vs foreign) but my view is, as long as I am staying in Msia, earn and spend in RM will be fine for me. Yes, imports etc will be more expensive etc.

RM is tied to the oil price as I think O & G is a big part of Msian GDP.

Cheerio.
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post Mar 29 2019, 08:48 PM

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QUOTE(cherroy @ Mar 29 2019, 02:59 PM)
Until EV become price competitive, conventional fossil engine is here to stay.
Not to mention, EV has problem to replace diesel powerful engine.

EV is not just about EV alone, you need charging station, and time consuming to charge aka various condition or product environment to flourish.

Petrol engine, no petrol, jump pump in a min, you can travel again for next 300Km, EV simply doesn't has this conveniences.
Stuck in traffic jam for hours, then battery died down, need to tow away...  laugh.gif

Unless we have breakthrough in battery technology, which has been reaching bottleneck stage since decade ago.
See, how we still need power bank, just for smart phone alone, despite various breakthrough in semi-conductor that consuming less and less voltage/current already.

Also, EV plastic components all made up from polymer, and polymer origin from fossil oil.

O&G is still a huge industry, just not as lucrative compared to years back, and oil is still plentiful around. The myth the world running out of oil that has been spreaded 10 to 20 years back has been debunked.

For retirement investment planning, it is all about diversification, it is a bit risky to bang on a few sector to look for return.
*
Sharing what I have seen, heard and read,

** Last year, saw a Bloomberg (?) TV report that Tesla (?) was testing its long distance EV trucks from one coast to the other coast. Not commercial yet but testing, testing, testing.

** Even Airbus is working to develop EP (electric plane) for short routes (limitation due to battery capacity).

** Agree on the dire consequences if the battery runs out of juice or it breaks down before reaching the destination. Asked myself why cant they use household electricity to charge the battery. Household electricity is AC while battery is DC. All one needs is an AC to DC converter and one can charge the EV using household power. BUT there must be something this layman doesn't know which stops them from using household electricity. Ha.

** Heard of one coming breakthrough in lithium battery. Can't remember whether it is to increase its capacity by many folds or shorten the charging time. I should keep electronic notes for things I am interested in. Cannot rely on my memory.

Cheerio.

P/S I will not fly in an EP till it has a proven 3 years safety record equal or better than existing planes! Ha.

Krv23490
post Mar 29 2019, 10:50 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Mar 29 2019, 08:28 PM)
Whether that fund is going green and thus dropping O & G shares or they prefer not to ride the O & G roller coaster is anyone guess.

Mind sharing why Hibiscus P? Isn't it tied in to what Petronas is willing to give? Or the link is already solid gold? Ha. I will do a quick check for my own interest.

On EV ETF, my plan is to get in post this coming recession and AFTER some confirmed global recovery signs are there. Not an issue to me that I do not get in at the bottom. SWAN knowing my investment is growing during the post recession recovery period, rather than getting in now on the EV ETF as the current global outlook is dicey.

I am mostly in RM. Why? A strong believer in Msian govt and outlook? 50-50 lah. Foreign exchange is an unknown alien thing to me. Too risky for me without any knowledge. Thus prefer to stay out. Yes, this will affect my overall return (Msian vs foreign) but my view is, as long as I am staying in Msia, earn and spend in RM will be fine for me. Yes, imports etc will be more expensive etc.

RM is tied to the oil price as I think O & G is a big part of Msian GDP.

Cheerio.
*
GPFG said that the reason they are divesting their O&G stake is not because of going green but its just doesnt make sense that they reinvest their O&G derived funds back into O&G. Norway is dependant on oil revenue.

Yeah , if you think oil prices are going to drop alot , that means you think RM is going to weaken significantly, wouldnt you convert your RM into USD or SGD. I did not mean as trade in forex. I too am not skilled enough for that hoho

Why Hibiscus? because i entered it during low oil price and they were finalizing their second well/plant in Sabah. They are in net cash , good management for me , qoq/yoy growth as well. Norway fund only owns 2% stake of hibiscus as well . I was betting for oil price to go up when i entered previously anyways. They are not dependant on Petronas as they own the assets directly in UK,Aussie and Malaysia. Their cost to extract oil is quite low as well if not mistaken. So far up 30+% on it. BEFORE KYY made a hoo hah about biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif
TSplumberly
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QUOTE(Krv23490 @ Mar 29 2019, 10:50 PM)
GPFG said that the reason they are divesting their O&G stake is not because of going green but its just doesnt make sense that they reinvest their O&G derived funds back into O&G. Norway is dependant on oil revenue.

Yeah , if you think oil prices are going to drop alot , that means you think RM is going to weaken significantly, wouldnt you convert your RM into USD or SGD. I did not mean as trade in forex. I too am not skilled enough for that hoho

***  Not the same fish (share price and oil price). My O&G share price dropped by 55% in the last recession, recovered a few years later. But oil price dropped and started to recover within a few months in the last recession. Impact on RM was not for that long. Did a study before, surprised that Spore $ did better than rm in the past except for only 1 yr. So S$ bagus?

Why Hibiscus? because i entered it during low oil price and they were finalizing their second well/plant in Sabah. They are in net cash , good management for me , qoq/yoy growth as well. Norway fund only owns 2% stake of hibiscus as well . I was betting for oil price to go up when i entered previously anyways. They are not dependant on Petronas as they own the assets directly in UK,Aussie and Malaysia. Their cost to extract oil is quite low as well if not mistaken. So far up 30+% on it. BEFORE KYY made a hoo hah about  biggrin.gif  biggrin.gif  biggrin.gif
*
TSplumberly
post Mar 31 2019, 03:23 PM

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The oil price impact on RM got me curious. Also want to see whether what they reported in the news are true/semi true/reporter's personal view. Did a quick psuedo quantitative analysis.

Attached Image

There appears a link between oil price and rm.

The straight line cluster of data at the bottom is the 1997-1998s. Looked like oil price then was fairly stable, not much fluctuation. RM then fluctuated on its normal factors (whatever these are).

Removing these straight line data, second graph shows an improvement in the correlation squared (R^2).

So what to draw from this?

There is a difference between correlation and causation as a friend has pointed out. Just because there is a relationship between A and B, it does not always imply A has a direct impact on B or vice versa. There can be another factor affecting both A and B.

My layman's view is, when oil price is high and being an O & G exporter, there will be more money coming into the country and this pushes up the RM strength.

Will do a check on Brunei $ as it is a major O & G exporter, to see if the oil price vs B$ effect is similar.

Plan to analyse the oil price vs rm on a yearly basis and see how the slope and R^2 varied from year to year.

P/S Maybe a polynomial line will give a better R2. I chose a straight line for comparison.

This post has been edited by plumberly: Mar 31 2019, 09:33 PM
Krv23490
post Apr 1 2019, 09:45 PM

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Let’s Not Stress About the Next U.S. Recession
It’s probably not imminent, and won’t be severe.

Written by Bill Dudley. Bill Dudley is a senior research scholar at Princeton University’s Center for Economic Policy Studies. He served as president of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York from 2009 to 2018, and as vice chairman of the Federal Open Market Committee. He was previously chief U.S. economist at Goldman Sachs.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/...on?srnd=opinion
TSplumberly
post Apr 2 2019, 09:27 AM

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QUOTE(Krv23490 @ Apr 1 2019, 09:45 PM)
Let’s Not Stress About the Next U.S. Recession
It’s probably not imminent, and won’t be severe.

Written by Bill Dudley. Bill Dudley is a senior research scholar at Princeton University’s Center for Economic Policy Studies. He served as president of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York from 2009 to 2018, and as vice chairman of the Federal Open Market Committee. He was previously chief U.S. economist at Goldman Sachs.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/...on?srnd=opinion
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Thanks. A good read, trying to get out of my tunnel vision.

But .....


tehoice
post Apr 2 2019, 09:57 AM

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since the beginning of this post sinec August last year. Has TS managed to reduce your positions significantly in anticipating the incoming crash?
TSplumberly
post Apr 2 2019, 11:19 AM

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QUOTE(tehoice @ Apr 2 2019, 09:57 AM)
since the beginning of this post sinec August last year. Has TS managed to reduce your positions significantly in anticipating the incoming crash?
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What do you think? Ha.

I have sold more than 98% of it in Dec.

Ya, a rookie chicken who should not be in the shares market?

doh.gif sweat.gif thumbup.gif


tehoice
post Apr 2 2019, 11:31 AM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Apr 2 2019, 11:19 AM)
What do you think? Ha.

I have sold more than 98% of it in Dec.

Ya, a rookie chicken who should not be in the shares market?

doh.gif  sweat.gif  thumbup.gif
*
certain stocks if you hold it from Dec till now, you could have seen another small gains though. cleared positions too early?
TSplumberly
post Apr 2 2019, 11:47 AM

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QUOTE(tehoice @ Apr 2 2019, 11:31 AM)
certain stocks if you hold it from Dec till now, you could have seen another small gains though. cleared positions too early?
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Yes and no, depending on which day you compare with. To me, it is never too early but most of the time, too late.

My decision to go ahead is to avoid the non SWAN, asking myself what should I do when I hear bad news on the global scene and that industry. So desperate? It is part of my retirement fund, so have to be extra careful. Dont mind suffering some losses (on potential future gain) even if the recession comes much later.
tehoice
post Apr 2 2019, 11:49 AM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Apr 2 2019, 11:47 AM)
Yes and no, depending on which day you compare with. To me, it is never too early but most of the time, too late.

My decision to go ahead is to avoid the non SWAN, asking myself what should I do when I hear bad news on the global scene and that industry. So desperate? It is part of my retirement fund, so have to be extra careful. Dont mind suffering some losses (on potential future gain) even if the recession comes much later.
*
yes, noted on that.
always protect the capital, this is super important too.
icemanfx
post Apr 7 2019, 09:12 PM

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According to some regulatory reports, next financial or economic crisis will likely trigger by fed rate rise and impact could be more widely than previous crisis.

De-gearing is a common sense going forward.

This post has been edited by icemanfx: Apr 7 2019, 09:20 PM
[Ancient]-XinG-
post Apr 8 2019, 08:13 AM

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QUOTE(icemanfx @ Apr 7 2019, 09:12 PM)
According to some regulatory reports, next financial or economic crisis will likely trigger by fed rate rise and impact could be more widely than previous crisis.

De-gearing is a common sense going forward.
*
Meaning 2019 = 2017

2020 = 2018

Fed will be no hike this year. In fact there's signal to reduce in q4.
TSplumberly
post Apr 8 2019, 08:48 AM

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QUOTE(icemanfx @ Apr 7 2019, 09:12 PM)
According to some regulatory reports, next financial or economic crisis will likely trigger by fed rate rise and impact could be more widely than previous crisis.

De-gearing is a common sense going forward.
*
Mind sharing the links? Thanks.

My layman's gut feel is a huge dip, mainly due to putting plasters here and there trying to cure a major illness. Plasters here = QE.

New strain of viruses = DT, BREXIT, NKorea, etc

Ha.
Krv23490
post Apr 8 2019, 10:56 AM

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Posted this in another thread last week

I think recession seems to be postponed.

Positive indication of trade deal from both party, even China said they have to do something about their tech IP. Positive surprise

yield curve not inverted anymore

Jobs results unexpected on the plus side

UK kicked the Brexit can further down the road till June IIRC.

Told a fellow StashAway member it was most probably going to be a good week(last week 1/4) and good jobs report will most probably carry forward the momentum next week. fingers crossed.

Either way, stick to investment principle. I for one putting smaller amounts as things are slowly going back to record levels

This post has been edited by Krv23490: Apr 8 2019, 10:56 AM
icemanfx
post Apr 8 2019, 02:01 PM

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QUOTE(Ancient-XinG- @ Apr 8 2019, 08:13 AM)
Meaning 2019 = 2017

2020 = 2018

Fed will be no hike this year. In fact there's signal to reduce in q4.
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Low interest rate mean economic growth is fragile. Interest rate drop could only mean economic growth is under threat, is not a good news at all.


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post Apr 8 2019, 03:08 PM

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QUOTE(tehoice @ Apr 2 2019, 11:49 AM)
yes, noted on that.
always protect the capital, this is super important too.
*
New principle added to my investment dictionary.
cherroy
post Apr 8 2019, 04:52 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Apr 8 2019, 08:48 AM)
Mind sharing the links? Thanks.

My layman's gut feel is a huge dip, mainly due to putting plasters here and there trying to cure a major illness. Plasters here = QE.

New strain of viruses = DT, BREXIT, NKorea, etc

Ha.
*
NK is not an issue for global financial market. It is more about political instead of economy.
Brexit won't impact whole world economy, except Br and specific stocks related to BR.

The fear is with dovish Fed (so quick stopping the hike cycle), it may fuel another asset bubble (worldwide equities rising non-stop), and with still low US interest rate, it may not have enough "ammunition" to handle next bubble crisis.

Last time, 2008, Fed rate was 5% before crisis hit, then at least for 5% "ammunition"
Now, only 2.5% already halt the rate hike.
Krv23490
post Apr 8 2019, 06:24 PM

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QUOTE(cherroy @ Apr 8 2019, 04:52 PM)
NK is not an issue for global financial market. It is more about political instead of economy.
Brexit won't impact whole world economy, except Br and specific stocks related to BR.

The fear is with dovish Fed (so quick stopping the hike cycle), it may fuel another asset bubble (worldwide equities rising non-stop), and with still low US interest rate, it may not have enough "ammunition" to handle next bubble crisis.

Last time, 2008, Fed rate was 5% before crisis hit, then at least for 5% "ammunition"
Now, only 2.5% already halt the rate hike.
*
So if we are expecting rate cuts, bond funds will be a beneficiary right?
Hansel
post Apr 8 2019, 09:48 PM

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QUOTE(icemanfx @ Apr 8 2019, 02:01 PM)
Low interest rate mean economic growth is fragile. Interest rate drop could only mean economic growth is under threat, is not a good news at all.
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QUOTE(cherroy @ Apr 8 2019, 04:52 PM)
NK is not an issue for global financial market. It is more about political instead of economy.
Brexit won't impact whole world economy, except Br and specific stocks related to BR.

The fear is with dovish Fed (so quick stopping the hike cycle), it may fuel another asset bubble (worldwide equities rising non-stop), and with still low US interest rate, it may not have enough "ammunition" to handle next bubble crisis.

Last time, 2008, Fed rate was 5% before crisis hit, then at least for 5% "ammunition"
Now, only 2.5% already halt the rate hike.
*
I would look at it like this : this time, the Feds are more attentive to world events, and more sensitive to whatever that is happening in the world, however big or small. Hence, quick actions have been put in place before it's too late. Yes - Feds holding rates also points to weaker economic growth today compared to earlier. But isn't it good that the Feds stops in time ?

In 2008, what happened back then was not something that the Feds could see coming. The subprime crisis happened overnight, and Bear Stearns was the first to start giving bad signals. That was a totally different scenario compared to what we have today. Of course, Feds had the 5% ammo back then - this 5% contributed to the crisis too, besides easy-lending practices and no control over loans back then.

NK contributes sentiment to the financial world - this has been proven many times.

Brexit contributes to problems in The Eurozone, and The Eurozone, as a big economic bloc, influences world financial mkts. This was proven back in 2016 when world mkts drop after the Referendum results, after that victory speech by Nigel (something),.... When the votes were being counted and as we see more and more voters leaning towards separation, world indices dropped lower and lower,...
foofoosasa
post Apr 8 2019, 11:12 PM

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QUOTE(exdtan @ Apr 8 2019, 03:08 PM)
New principle added to my investment dictionary.
*
You don't protect your investment when inflation is sky high rocket.

But lucky enough TS made a great choice especially with malaysia current situation, cash is king.
foofoosasa
post Apr 8 2019, 11:16 PM

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QUOTE(icemanfx @ Apr 7 2019, 09:12 PM)
According to some regulatory reports, next financial or economic crisis will likely trigger by fed rate rise and impact could be more widely than previous crisis.

De-gearing is a common sense going forward.
*
Regulatory report and economist prediction always wrong.

De gearing is very dangerous I doubt they will do it.

I predict more and more low interest rate policy continue and

more country will join Negative rate territory.
[Ancient]-XinG-
post Apr 8 2019, 11:20 PM

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I look back the timeline of 2008 crisis.

It's took nearly half a year to cook up the crisis. Starting from bad lending. IT WAS JAN that fed decrease the rate. And some of the policy was made to boost the housing. Then the gov keep buying back bad debt and Indy Mac bank was the 1st who face a bank run.

Up to Sept 2008, the collapse of Lehman brother trigger it.

Gov decided to let go because they already take up Fraddie, as well as AIG.

Not sure whether I got it right or not because I was too young during that time.

As you all mentioned every financial crisis will have a totally different trigger point. I suppose after the crisis in 2008, they regulated it and prevent it from happening again.

But fed being suddenly Dovish is a signal and of they quickly lower down the rate then we should be aware. 1 thing I realize is that during that time gold shoot and oil down. Which is contra to what we are having now.

Putting those things aside, Honestly speaking, 2008 mortgage crisis reflect exactly the same as we face in props sector in Malaysia, right now. Just that BNM tightened the rules few years back to prevent it deteriorated.

This post has been edited by [Ancient]-XinG-: Apr 8 2019, 11:22 PM
TSplumberly
post Apr 9 2019, 01:41 PM

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QUOTE(cherroy @ Apr 8 2019, 04:52 PM)
NK is not an issue for global financial market. It is more about political instead of economy.

***  My fear is political tension which escalated into war will have impacts on global economy. Just image what will happen if Mr Rocket man fired off an ICBM to you know where. NK radar will see many black birds heading his way on the screen. Global trade will take a sudden dip and many countries will go into survival mode. Just wondering, how were the economy during WW1 and WW2?

Brexit won't impact whole world economy, except Br and specific stocks related to BR.

***  My childish feel is, BR has global trade reach. Ditto for EU. So when they suffer, others far away will feel some pain too when they reduce or stop their business overseas.

The fear is with dovish Fed (so quick stopping the hike cycle), it may fuel another asset bubble (worldwide equities rising non-stop), and with still low US interest rate, it may not have enough "ammunition" to handle next bubble crisis.

***  FED has much more knowledge and skill than me but when they started to increase the rate, one after another, I felt that they were building up medicine for the next recession. What can they do if there is not much % to start with? I guess they can go over to the dark side of the moon (negative rate) and/or start QE again.

Last time, 2008, Fed rate was 5% before crisis hit, then at least for 5% "ammunition"
Now, only 2.5% already halt the rate hike.
*
QUOTE(Hansel @ Apr 8 2019, 09:48 PM)
I would look at it like this : this time, the Feds are more attentive to world events, and more sensitive to whatever that is happening in the world, however big or small. Hence, quick actions have been put in place before it's too late. Yes - Feds holding rates also points to weaker economic growth today compared to earlier. But isn't it good that the Feds stops in time ?

***  Read that FED was too fast (or too slow?) in adjusting the rate which later triggered a recession in the past. Guess this global economy is a wild temperamental beast.

In 2008, what happened back then was not something that the Feds could see coming. The subprime crisis happened overnight, and Bear Stearns was the first to start giving bad signals. That was a totally different scenario compared to what we have today. Of course, Feds had the 5% ammo back then - this 5% contributed to the crisis too, besides easy-lending practices and no control over loans back then.

***  Watched a video on lessons from 2008 recession some years ago. Govt bailed out banks and stopped at Lehman. Then the crash followed. If the govt also bailed out Lehman, would that prevented the recession? I dont  think so, another major bad news then would start the recession.

*
QUOTE(foofoosasa @ Apr 8 2019, 11:12 PM)
You don't protect your investment when inflation is sky high rocket.

But lucky enough TS made a great choice especially with malaysia current situation, cash is king.

***  My success yardstick depends on how much the shares I have sold will drop and also how long it will take for it to recover. If close to 2008 recession, then I will be smiling.  biggrin.gif  rclxms.gif  rclxm9.gif

*
QUOTE(Ancient-XinG- @ Apr 8 2019, 11:20 PM)
I look back the timeline of 2008 crisis.

It's took nearly half a year to cook up the crisis. Starting from bad lending. IT WAS JAN that fed decrease the rate. And some of the policy was made to boost the housing. Then the gov keep buying back bad debt and Indy Mac bank was the 1st who face a bank run.

***  Read a myth that recession will start 2 years after the FED has started the rate increase. Fed started the increase back in 2015. So already 2 years now. So, tak betul.

Up to Sept 2008, the collapse of Lehman brother trigger it.

Gov decided to let go because they already take up Fraddie, as well as AIG.

Not sure whether I got it right or not because I was too young during that time.

As you all mentioned every financial crisis will have a totally different trigger point. I suppose after the crisis in 2008, they regulated it and prevent it from happening again.

But fed being suddenly Dovish is a signal and of they quickly lower down the rate then we should be aware. 1 thing I realize is that during that time gold shoot and oil down. Which is contra to what we are having now.

Putting those things aside, Honestly speaking, 2008 mortgage crisis reflect exactly the same as we face in props sector in Malaysia, right now. Just that BNM tightened the rules few years back to prevent it deteriorated.

***  Didnt know our property market is like that now.

*
cherroy
post Apr 9 2019, 02:35 PM

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QUOTE(Krv23490 @ Apr 8 2019, 06:24 PM)
So if we are expecting rate cuts, bond funds will be a beneficiary right?
*
Yes, bonds has been rallying since Fed signaled rate will hold this year.
Even MGS also rallying, many bond funds are performing quite well recently.


QUOTE(Hansel @ Apr 8 2019, 09:48 PM)
I would look at it like this : this time, the Feds are more attentive to world events, and more sensitive to whatever that is happening in the world, however big or small. Hence, quick actions have been put in place before it's too late. Yes - Feds holding rates also points to weaker economic growth today compared to earlier. But isn't it good that the Feds stops in time ?

In 2008, what happened back then was not something that the Feds could see coming. The subprime crisis happened overnight, and Bear Stearns was the first to start giving bad signals. That was a totally different scenario compared to what we have today. Of course, Feds had the 5% ammo back then - this 5% contributed to the crisis too, besides easy-lending practices and no control over loans back then.

NK contributes sentiment to the financial world - this has been proven many times.

Brexit contributes to problems in The Eurozone, and The Eurozone, as a big economic bloc, influences world financial mkts. This was proven back in 2016 when world mkts drop after the Referendum results, after that victory speech by Nigel (something),.... When the votes were being counted and as we see more and more voters leaning towards separation, world indices dropped lower and lower,...
*
It is not about Fed can or can't see that trigger the 2008 crisis, it was prolonged low interest rate (Fed slow to hike rate during 2012-2017), that fuel the greediness of mortgages backed securities that triggered the 2008 crisis unfolding.

When interest rate is too low, it easily triggers asset bubbles, because money has nowhere to go and need to chase return, as well as prompt many risky carry trade.
Asset bubbles + lax in bank lending control + greediness -> 2008 crisis.

Recent some Sreit shoot to the roof just after Fed halt the rate hike cycle, is one of sign how low interest rate can prop up asset price.

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post Apr 9 2019, 06:25 PM

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QUOTE(foofoosasa @ Apr 8 2019, 11:12 PM)
You don't protect your investment when inflation is sky high rocket.

But lucky enough TS made a great choice especially with malaysia current situation, cash is king.
*
True. I am sitting on 20% paper loss as of this moment after the short crash between Nov 18 - Jan 19.
TSplumberly
post Apr 10 2019, 07:56 AM

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QUOTE(exdtan @ Apr 9 2019, 06:25 PM)
True. I am sitting on 20% paper loss as of this moment after the short crash between Nov 18 - Jan 19.
*
Food/wine for thought ...

Do you think it will:
* get worse
* get better
* stay the same?

You decide and then take action.

Yes, it depends on your expectation, risk appetite, current/medium/long term cash flow requirements, etc etc etc.

For me, as you know, I have chickened out! Ha.

exdtan
post Apr 10 2019, 09:49 AM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Apr 10 2019, 07:56 AM)
Food/wine for thought ...

Do you think it will:
* get worse
* get better
* stay the same?

You decide and then take action.

Yes, it depends on your expectation, risk appetite, current/medium/long term cash flow requirements, etc etc etc.

For me, as you know, I have chickened out! Ha.
*
Glad you did that. Otherwise you wont be able to get out now haha.

My opinion is that it will get better.....until September 2019. bye.gif

Based on the pattern of market movement... There is always incidents happening around October - December.... Let's hope 2018 one was a big one so that 2019 is a small one....

Otherwise everybody jump sea for sure this year sweat.gif
TSplumberly
post Apr 10 2019, 10:25 AM

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QUOTE(exdtan @ Apr 10 2019, 09:49 AM)
Glad you did that. Otherwise you wont be able to get out now haha.

***  Well, if I think it will get even worse, I will still cut the losses and get out. Of course I have to be very convinced in my head first.

My opinion is that it will get better.....until September 2019.  bye.gif

*** Mind sharing why till Sept?

Based on the pattern of market movement... There is always incidents happening around October - December.... Let's hope 2018 one was a big one so that 2019 is a small one....

*** Did a quick check on KLCI monthly trend about a year or two ago. Think Dec (maybe not KLCI but another index) is usually a healthy month to signify that year has been a good year. Just too much artificial manipulation. Ha.

Otherwise everybody jump sea for sure this year  sweat.gif
*
foofoosasa
post Apr 10 2019, 02:48 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Apr 10 2019, 07:56 AM)
Food/wine for thought ...

Do you think it will:
* get worse
* get better
* stay the same?

You decide and then take action.

Yes, it depends on your expectation, risk appetite, current/medium/long term cash flow requirements, etc etc etc.

For me, as you know, I have chickened out! Ha.
*
if based on some statistic, true bear market averagely last for 14 months.

the real bear for KLCI start from May 2018 ( after election ), while some small cap and political link counter already experience more than 50% drop from high price ( some of them doesn't mean they are cheap )

actually start to hunt some good potential stock at current is actually quite good option with small bet every few weeks or a month. But this bear market I predict gonna be quite long due to low crude oil price , low CPO price , worsening property market condition, increase NPL on banks, political links counters collapse etc , lower & Disappointed earning for majority of listed companies.

Hunt Slowly and patiently wink.gif

Just my 2 cents




TSplumberly
post Apr 12 2019, 11:22 AM

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https://www.imf.org/en/News/Articles/2019/0...spring-meetings

But just like nature, the global economy is also currently quite uncertain. As I said a year ago, we were talking about synchronized growth. And 75 percent of the global economy was going through that phase. As you heard a couple of days ago, we are now talking about a synchronized slowdown by 70 percent of the global economy. So our forecast for growth this year is 3.3 percent, going back up, we hope, in 2020, based on our forecast, to 3.6 percent. But we contend that we are at a delicate moment. And this expected rebound, from 3.3 in 2019 to 3.6 in 2020, is precarious and is subject to downside risks, ranging from unresolved trade tensions, high debt in some sectors and countries, both public and corporate, to the risk of weaker‑than‑expected growth in some stressed economies, and, of course, the consequences of whatever Brexit will be.

70% of the 195 nations? Or 70% of the total economy volume?

Wonder which are the other 30% nations?


foofoosasa
post Apr 12 2019, 07:13 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Apr 12 2019, 11:22 AM)
https://www.imf.org/en/News/Articles/2019/0...spring-meetings

But just like nature, the global economy is also currently quite uncertain. As I said a year ago, we were talking about synchronized growth. And 75 percent of the global economy was going through that phase. As you heard a couple of days ago, we are now talking about a synchronized slowdown by 70 percent of the global economy. So our forecast for growth this year is 3.3 percent, going back up, we hope, in 2020, based on our forecast, to 3.6 percent. But we contend that we are at a delicate moment. And this expected rebound, from 3.3 in 2019 to 3.6 in 2020, is precarious and is subject to downside risks, ranging from unresolved trade tensions, high debt in some sectors and countries, both public and corporate, to the risk of weaker‑than‑expected growth in some stressed economies, and, of course, the consequences of whatever Brexit will be.

70% of the 195 nations? Or 70% of the total economy volume?

Wonder which are the other 30% nations?
*
IMF article is the last thing should affect people making decision in investment. Reason is simple, it is lagging data.

Slow down by 70 percent of countries? For what reason? Obviously is because of trade war. So hows the progress of trade war now? Why US keep delay the trade war game? Other slow down i guess mostly from country that rely on o&g.

The above reason still not good enough for global market to continue long bear. We still in low interest rate and excessive

money printing in history. Look at US market , japanese market and chinese market.

However, malaysia economy is special case. We have low cpo, crude oil price, change of new gov , overhang property market etc. Our bear will be longer than other market.
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post Apr 12 2019, 08:47 PM

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US eq going to bull run again after some reading are out.

IMO all those opinion opinion thing should have taken with a pinch of salt. All are history. Lagging data's. They will claim "I told you"

But in fact, never one will earn big base on lagging data. But those article important in assisting us in making decision. Not the decision maker. We are the decision maker.

I still remember Schroeder report last q2 or q4. Mentioned on the inversion curves. And they said, based on the curves, the major corrections shall be on 0219.... I think nothing happen.

Malaysia...... Don't know what happpen la. Still hangovers. Need some ginger water to counter drunk.
Krv23490
post Apr 13 2019, 10:55 AM

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QUOTE(Ancient-XinG- @ Apr 12 2019, 08:47 PM)
US eq going to bull run again after some reading are out.

IMO all those opinion opinion thing should have taken with a pinch of salt. All are history. Lagging data's. They will claim "I told you"

But in fact, never one will earn big base on lagging data. But those article important in assisting us in making decision. Not the decision maker. We are the decision maker.

I still remember Schroeder report last q2 or q4. Mentioned on the inversion curves. And they said, based on the curves, the major corrections shall be on 0219.... I think nothing happen.

Malaysia...... Don't know what happpen la. Still hangovers. Need some ginger water to counter drunk.
*
Ya , just proved that timing the market is damn hard. Initial bank earnings beat expectation yesterday as well causing DJIA to be up 1% and SP500 0.6%.

If the tech heavyweights beat earnings. Expect a good bull run in the short term.
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post May 5 2019, 08:11 PM

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Just watched an interesting video

https://www.ted.com/talks/michele_wucker_wh...ion?language=en

About not seeing or accepting what is happening right infront of us, the gray rhinos.

Her real estate in NY nearly doubled in 4 years and she sold it as she saw the writing on the wall before the 2008 financial crisis. I hope that I can also use that line later with the sale of my shares recently. Ha.

See how relevant are her 3 points to you.

Cheerio.
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post May 6 2019, 12:24 AM

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QUOTE(Ancient-XinG- @ Apr 12 2019, 08:47 PM)
Mentioned on the inversion curves. And they said, based on the curves, the major corrections shall be on 0219.... I think nothing happen.
*
Not mistaken it should happen around May right? Now is May, we shall see..
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post May 7 2019, 03:20 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ May 5 2019, 08:11 PM)
Just watched an interesting video

https://www.ted.com/talks/michele_wucker_wh...ion?language=en

About not seeing or accepting what is happening right infront of us, the gray rhinos.

Her real estate in NY nearly doubled in 4 years and she sold it as she saw the writing on the wall before the 2008 financial crisis. I hope that I can also use that line later with the sale of my shares recently. Ha.

See how relevant are her 3 points to you.

Cheerio.
*
Did stocks doubled in the last 4 years? That's 18% pa CAGR. I think that figure for stocks is inadequate for the last blow off leg.
Maybe a 30% CAGR for 3 years for stocks may be more appropriate since its a financial note unlike property.

Krv23490
post May 7 2019, 03:41 PM

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QUOTE(Yggdrasil @ May 6 2019, 12:24 AM)
Not mistaken it should happen around May right? Now is May, we shall see..
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The inversion wasn’t really counted because it didn’t last more than the ‘supposed’ indicator
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post May 7 2019, 03:42 PM

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QUOTE(Krv23490 @ May 7 2019, 03:41 PM)
The inversion wasn’t really counted because it didn’t last more than the ‘supposed’ indicator
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Haha I like how people justify when something they predict didn't happen. I mean if the recession can be predicted, then there will be no losers.
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post May 7 2019, 03:44 PM

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QUOTE(Yggdrasil @ May 7 2019, 03:42 PM)
Haha I like how people justify when something they predict didn't happen. I mean if the recession can be predicted, then there will be no losers.
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Hahah, exactly. I don’t believe in timing the market as well. Anyone can call bull bull bull or bear bear bear, sooner or later will be right.

Just as a broken clock is right twice a day
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post May 7 2019, 07:05 PM

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QUOTE(prophetjul @ May 7 2019, 03:20 PM)
Did stocks doubled in the last 4 years?  That's 18% pa CAGR.  I think that figure for stocks is inadequate for the last blow off leg.
Maybe a 30% CAGR for 3 years for stocks may be more appropriate since its a financial note unlike property.
*
She was referring to the years before the 2008 financial crisis on her RE story.
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post May 19 2019, 08:48 PM

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https://upfina.com/global-economy-slowing-t...-the-only-risk/

Global Economy Slowing: Trade War Isn’t The Only Risk
May 16, 2019

UPFINA's Mission: The pursuit of truth in finance and economics to form an unbiased view of current events in order to understand human action, its causes and effects. Read about our mission here.


The Fed’s two mandates are stable prices and maximum employment. Skeptics think the third, most powerful mandate, is to keep the S&P 500 up. To be fair to the Fed, the stock market is a leading indicator of the economy, so if the stock market falls it could be a warning that the economy may be deteriorating. Also, if the stock market falls significantly, that could hurt the economy further through reflexivity. Bearish investors hate the concept of the Fed helping the stock market, but they are in a difficult position of managing not only the cost of currency, but perception and confidence in their ability to do so. None of us can control whether the Fed helps the market. We can only react to policies and changes to the economy. If you have been angrily short stocks since December because you are mad the Fed turned dovish, you have lost money trying to prove a point. You can utilize free speech to criticize any policy decision, but don’t involve your portfolio in philosophical arguments. Reality, just or unjust, and perception of reality, is what matters for portfolio returns.

When Will The Fed Cut Rates?
As you can see from the chart below, Merrill Lynch asked fund managers where the S&P 500 would need to fall to for the Fed to cut rates. The most popular answer was 2,350.


Source: Bank Of America
The S&P 500 was at 2,834 as of May 14th. We think this question is attempting to figure out when the market alone would cause the Fed to cut rates, because even with the stock market this high, the odds of a rate cut by the end of the year are 74.2%. It’s also possible fund managers don’t agree with those odds.

The Biggest Tail Risk
The stock market is stuck in a cycle. The good news is the stock market corrections make tariffs less likely. The bad news is a bull market gives policy makers more confidence to apply more tariffs. Even though the bulls don’t like this trade war, it’s a positive for them that policy makers respond to the stock market.

As you can see from the chart below, the trade war was considered the market’s biggest tail risk.

A tail risk is supposed to be a relatively low probability event that can cause big problems. This risk must refer to a global trade war because the trade war with China is already underway.

As you can see, in the May survey, less fund managers mentioned a Chinese slowdown as a tail risk. The Chinese slowdown has been underway for a few years, so this tail risk must refer to much more weakness. It appears fund managers were wrong in May to stop picking this as the biggest tail risk as the April economic reports from China were terrible. Specifically, industrial output growth was 5.4% which fell from 8.5% in March which was a 4.5 year high. The April reading missed estimates for 6.5%. Chinese retail sales growth fell from 8.7% to 7.2% which missed estimates for 8.6%.

As you can see from the chart below, this was the lowest growth rate since May 2003. This chart truly highlights how long the Chinese slowdown has been going on for.

Chinese auto sales fell 14.6% in April which was the 10th straight month of declines. Fixed asset investment growth was 6.1% in the first four months of 2019. Estimates were for 6.4%; growth was 6.3% in the first quarter. Private fixed investment growth fell from 6.4% in Q1 to 5.5% in the first 4 months of 2019. Finally, infrastructure spending growth was stagnant at 4.4%. As you can see, this was an across the board sharp slowdown which could signal the trade war is hurting China. It definitely signals the global economy is still weakening. This is a score for America in the trade war, but increases the cyclical headwinds for the economy.

Very Poor Cass Freight Index
The April Cass Freight shipments reading was terrible, signaling the American economy is in a slowdown. The movement of tangible goods is a great indicator for the health of the economy. Shipments growth is getting closer to the weakness seen in the 2015-2016 slowdown. As you can see from the chart below, shipment volume growth has been negative for 5 straight months. Shipments were down 3.2% and expenditures were up 6.2% yearly. The Cass Freight report stated, “we see material and growing downside risk to the economic outlook.” Furthermore, it stated, “the Cass Shipments Index has turned negative and is now signaling economic stagnation with the potential for contraction.” This is the exact weakness the ECRI leading indicator forecasted would happen in Q2 and Q3 at the start of the year.

Conclusion
If the stock market declines, the Fed will be more likely to cut rates, but the market already expects a cut anyway because the American economy is in a slowdown. The stock market rallied earlier in the year on the basis of a trade deal and the slowdown not leading to a recession. Unfortunately, tariffs are increasing soon and the slowdown has only gotten worse according to the Cass Freight index. The only positive left is the dovish Fed. However, a rate cut won’t save the economy or the stock market. Chinese economic growth weakened rapidly in April; Q1 S&P 500 EPS growth was significantly hurt by multinationals.
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post May 25 2019, 01:31 PM

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If you have been staying in the sideline since 1 year ago then your patience is likely to be rewarded with buying opportunity coming up in the next 6 to 12 coming months
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post May 25 2019, 05:17 PM

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QUOTE(ChAOoz @ May 25 2019, 01:31 PM)
If you have been staying in the sideline since 1 year ago then your patience is likely to be rewarded with buying opportunity coming up in the next 6 to 12 coming months
*
Yes but timing that entry is easier said then done.
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post May 25 2019, 06:55 PM

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QUOTE(ChAOoz @ May 25 2019, 01:31 PM)
If you have been staying in the sideline since 1 year ago then your patience is likely to be rewarded with buying opportunity coming up in the next 6 to 12 coming months
*
Hard to time though, if market keep dropping, most will lost the courage to enter

QUOTE(Cubalagi @ May 25 2019, 05:17 PM)
Yes but timing that entry is easier said then done.
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Exactly
TSplumberly
post May 25 2019, 07:37 PM

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QUOTE(ChAOoz @ May 25 2019, 01:31 PM)
If you have been staying in the sideline since 1 year ago then your patience is likely to be rewarded with buying opportunity coming up in the next 6 to 12 coming months
*
Interesting. Why 6-12 months and not eg 3-6, or 12-24 etc months? Just curious. Ha.

QUOTE(Cubalagi @ May 25 2019, 05:17 PM)
Yes but timing that entry is easier said then done.
*
QUOTE(Krv23490 @ May 25 2019, 06:55 PM)
Hard to time though, if market keep dropping, most will lost the courage to enter
Exactly
*
Sharing what I read years back. Forgot the book title now. Will try to find the book again. confused.gif

The author recommends waiting for confirmed recovery signals before buying the shares you have studied. Yes, you may not get the bottom price but you will have peace of mind if you wait for the recovery signals. Forgot what are the recovery signals he suggested. If for the long term, it does not really matter whether your entry price is 1 or 1.1 or 1.2 while the long term price will be x5, x10, x15. thumbsup.gif

But mind you, even with confirmed recovery signals, market can still crash months later. ranting.gif

My plan is to wait for the confirmed recovery signals, don't mind missing out on the lowest price. thumbup.gif rclxm9.gif biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by plumberly: May 25 2019, 08:13 PM
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post May 25 2019, 07:43 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Aug 23 2018, 10:19 AM)
Plan to clear most of my stocks in the next few months before the coming crash. Did some analysis to help in my decision making later.

Appreciate feedback on things I over looked etc in my analysis.

Assume 4-6% pa growth and 20-30% drop in price during the crash, it will take 3-4 yrs for the price to recover.

Instead of wasting the 3-4 years for the price to recover, won't it be better if I sell out before the crash, put that money in FD etc. That is, a positive net gain during the 3-4 years.

I know this is too idealistic but what have I done wrong?

Yes, I do not have a crystal ball to know when it will crash. But a crash WILL happen. Just a matter of time.

Appreciate a constructive feedback/discussion. Thanks.

P/S I think I put this in the wrong place. Should be in the discussion section. Can someone help me to transfer it? Or tell me how to? Thanks.
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Agreed. Try to consider self contribution EPF, Amanah Saham, Bonds(if you a HNWI).
Sovereign bonds of countries with stable currencies would be a good choice as well.

Gold will go down along with GDP contraction.
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post May 25 2019, 09:16 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ May 25 2019, 07:37 PM)
Interesting. Why 6-12 months and not eg 3-6, or 12-24 etc months? Just curious. Ha.

*
To really enter a bear market you will need two factor. Pessimism and fundamentals to backup the pessimism.

There has been many sell off since 08 in the past due to negative news eg brexit, greece default, rate hike etc. But so far all those sell off later rebounded and achieve all time high again due to earning reports showing good result.

But this round is different as i think by 6 /12 months in you will see the full effect of the trade wars in earning reports. This kind of bad fundamental would likely tipped the market over to an official bear territory

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post May 26 2019, 01:38 PM

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QUOTE(ChAOoz @ May 25 2019, 09:16 PM)
To really enter a bear market you will need two factor. Pessimism and fundamentals to backup the pessimism.

There has been many sell off since 08 in the past due to negative news eg brexit, greece default, rate hike etc. But so far all those sell off later rebounded and achieve all time high again due to earning reports showing good result.

But this round is different as i think by 6 /12 months in you will see the full effect of the trade wars in earning reports. This kind of bad fundamental would likely tipped the market over to an official bear territory
*
I see. And I agree. So many things not going right. Just waiting for a major one to erupt and the rest will follow, last straw to break the camel's back.

The trade war is eroding away the earnings in the USA, China, EU and others.

My fear is the Iran USA you-dare-me I-dare-you and accidentally start a war there which may pull other countries into the conflict.


P/S Got this email today. A report from a Dr. Doom on the economy. Ha. To respect his copyright, I only share just a page from his report. He is saying a crash later in 2019 or early 2020 from his technical analysis, which is similar to your 6-12 months. Sure you are not this Dr guy? Ha. Just in case some friends here want to correct me, saying no one can predict the crash, yes, I agree cannot predict down to the day, week or month. But best to be better prepared NOW before it comes.

Attached Image

This post has been edited by plumberly: May 26 2019, 03:31 PM
icemanfx
post May 26 2019, 04:04 PM

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Normally a crash is preceded by a bubble. Is there a bubble? How extend is this bubble? Is this bubble impose systemic risks?

This post has been edited by icemanfx: May 26 2019, 04:06 PM
Cubalagi
post May 26 2019, 06:10 PM

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QUOTE(icemanfx @ May 26 2019, 04:04 PM)
Normally a crash is preceded by a bubble. Is there a bubble? How extend is this bubble? Is this bubble impose systemic risks?
*
There is a debt bubble globally. Because of low interest rates, there is a lof debt out there n the world. Some thing can prick this bubble say Trade War.?

icemanfx
post May 26 2019, 07:06 PM

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QUOTE(Cubalagi @ May 26 2019, 06:10 PM)
There is a debt bubble globally. Because of low interest rates, there is a lof debt out there n the world. Some thing can prick this bubble say Trade War.?
*
Debts bubble in China corporates and property sectors. To certain extent, debts bubble in boleh land property.

SUSGenY
post May 26 2019, 07:45 PM

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The trade war's effects are grossly exaggerated by the media lah.

Read this:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-media...iffs-2019-05-14

StashAway's CIO also believes the trade war is overrated.

IMHO, most members of the media are no smarter or more knowledgeable than anyone else ... the industry does not attract the best and brightest ... they come up with flashy headlines and alarming stories to attract eyeballs.

It's just unfortunate that the herd are fooled into panic selling.


QUOTE(ChAOoz @ May 25 2019, 09:16 PM)
To really enter a bear market you will need two factor. Pessimism and fundamentals to backup the pessimism.

There has been many sell off since 08 in the past due to negative news eg brexit, greece default, rate hike etc. But so far all those sell off later rebounded and achieve all time high again due to earning reports showing good result.

But this round is different as i think by 6 /12 months in you will see the full effect of the trade wars in earning reports. This kind of bad fundamental would likely tipped the market over to an official bear territory
*
This post has been edited by GenY: May 26 2019, 08:13 PM
ViktorJ
post May 26 2019, 09:20 PM

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QUOTE(icemanfx @ May 26 2019, 07:06 PM)
Debts bubble in China corporates and property sectors. To certain extent, debts bubble in boleh land property.
*
Yeah. We hear a lot about China's corporate debt, because media wants to paint the opposite side as vulnerable.

But European and US corporate debt is also in pretty bad shape. Fed just talked about it recently, plus CDOs/CLOs are back.


icemanfx
post May 27 2019, 03:06 AM

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QUOTE(ViktorJ @ May 26 2019, 09:20 PM)
Yeah. We hear a lot about China's corporate debt, because media wants to paint the opposite side as vulnerable.

But European and US corporate debt is also in pretty bad shape. Fed just talked about it recently, plus CDOs/CLOs are back.
*
What are gearing ratio and operating cash to total debt ratio of u.s, european and chinese companies?

This post has been edited by icemanfx: May 27 2019, 03:16 AM
TSplumberly
post May 27 2019, 12:05 PM

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Attached Image

Saw this today, not that I was searching high and low for crash news.

Paul Gambles was the guy who predicted the Thai baht depreciation and the Asian currency crisis in 1997. No one is that lucky to correctly predict major crisis twice in a row?

Look at the headline at the bottom.

Check CNA if you want to have a look at that video.


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post May 27 2019, 01:24 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ May 27 2019, 12:05 PM)
Attached Image

Saw this today, not that I was searching high and low for crash news.

Paul Gambles was the guy who predicted the Thai baht depreciation and the Asian currency crisis in 1997. No one is that lucky to correctly predict major crisis twice in a row?

Look at the headline at the bottom.

Check CNA if you want to have a look at that video.
*
Tq bro,.. For my SG holdings, I think I'm going to continue holding-on to my SG REITs, UMS and Astrea IV - wi;; not sell this month. I will even subscribe to the Rights Issue of Frasers Centrepoint Trust, but I will not apply for too many Excesses.
ChAOoz
post May 27 2019, 01:45 PM

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QUOTE(GenY @ May 26 2019, 07:45 PM)
The trade war's effects are grossly exaggerated by the media lah.

Read this:
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-media...iffs-2019-05-14

StashAway's CIO also believes the trade war is overrated.

IMHO, most members of the media are no smarter or more knowledgeable than anyone else ... the industry does not attract the best and brightest ... they come up with flashy headlines and alarming stories to attract eyeballs.

It's just unfortunate that the herd are fooled into panic selling.
*
The true trade war effects is not in the country numbers as per the article highlight. You need to look at how people will behave. When the media served as a scarecrow, and the situation played out is relatable to the general public, eg loss of job, slow down in orders, loss of contract etc. Even how small these impact really is, there is a likelihood it will set of a chain of larger effect, eg people will start delaying purchase of luxury items, a loss in appetite for further business capital investment, slow down in hiring etc. When all this come together, you will see in hard figure the economy has slowed and the future 6 / 12 months corporate earnings will reflect this. By that time stocks will be cheap, and if you have cash there is bound to be good bargain.

That said, my portfolio is still 70% in stocks, and i don't plan to withdraw it. To time the market is almost impossible, so for now i'm planning to limit my participation in the market until i see improving outlook on the company financials and that optimism for global growth is back on the table.
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post May 27 2019, 01:47 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ May 27 2019, 12:05 PM)
Attached Image

Saw this today, not that I was searching high and low for crash news.

Paul Gambles was the guy who predicted the Thai baht depreciation and the Asian currency crisis in 1997. No one is that lucky to correctly predict major crisis twice in a row?

Look at the headline at the bottom.

Check CNA if you want to have a look at that video.
*
Hmm, would you trust everyone who got things twice right though ?
SUSGenY
post May 28 2019, 12:31 AM

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In other words, it's the sentiments (not economic fundamentals) that are hit badly. And the negativity and uncertainty leads to a overall slowdown in economic activities, like what we experienced for past one year in Malaysia.

I'm going to stay invested as well. There's no economic crisis, World War 3 or banking meltdown to justify the dumping of quality stocks. Things could turn around suddenly with a tweet from the fickle Tariff Man.

QUOTE(ChAOoz @ May 27 2019, 01:45 PM)
The true trade war effects is not in the country numbers as per the article highlight. You need to look at how people will behave. When the media served as a scarecrow, and the situation played out is relatable to the general public, eg loss of job, slow down in orders, loss of contract etc. Even how small these impact really is, there is a likelihood it will set of a chain of larger effect, eg people will start delaying purchase of luxury items, a loss in appetite for further business capital investment, slow down in hiring etc. When all this come together, you will see in hard figure the economy has slowed and the future 6 / 12 months corporate earnings will reflect this. By that time stocks will be cheap, and if you have cash there is bound to be good bargain.

That said, my portfolio is still 70% in stocks, and i don't plan to withdraw it. To time the market is almost impossible, so for now i'm planning to limit my participation in the market until i see improving outlook on the company financials and that optimism for global growth is back on the table.
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post May 28 2019, 02:31 PM

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QUOTE(GenY @ May 28 2019, 12:31 AM)
In other words, it's the sentiments (not economic fundamentals) that are hit badly. And the negativity and uncertainty leads to a overall slowdown in economic activities, like what we experienced for past one year in Malaysia.

I'm going to stay invested as well. There's no economic crisis, World War 3 or banking meltdown to justify the dumping of quality stocks. Things could turn around suddenly with a tweet from the fickle Tariff Man.
*
In the short term, the market is on random walk.

icemanfx
post May 28 2019, 03:19 PM

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QUOTE(ViktorJ @ May 26 2019, 09:20 PM)
Yeah. We hear a lot about China's corporate debt, because media wants to paint the opposite side as vulnerable.

But European and US corporate debt is also in pretty bad shape. Fed just talked about it recently, plus CDOs/CLOs are back.
*
China’s corporate debt stood at 155 per cent of GDP in the second quarter of 2018, much higher than other major economies, according to data from the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development. In comparison, Japan’s corporate debt level is 100 per cent of GDP and is 74 per cent in the US. China’s corporate debt includes issuances by its local government vehicles which by extension is mostly credit with an implicit guarantee from the central government.

https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/...-bubble-led-its
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post May 28 2019, 03:26 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ May 27 2019, 12:05 PM)
Attached Image

...... not that I was searching high and low for crash news.

*
No need for clarification actually. When you have taken a position, of course you hope you are right and profit from your action. Human nature.

Where do you park your money currently ? If your cash is idling, you will have more reason to search crash news high and low every day. In fact you may shut yourself to the markets which are still stubbornly high to justify your stance.
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QUOTE(Showtime747 @ May 28 2019, 03:26 PM)
No need for clarification actually. When you have taken a position, of course you hope you are right and profit from your action. Human nature.

Where do you park your money currently ? If your cash is idling, you will have more reason to search crash news high and low every day. In fact you may shut yourself to the markets which are still stubbornly high to justify your stance.
*
2 places:
* in ASX
* spent some! Ha. Time to reward myself. Have not used a single cent from that investment for more than 15 years. thumbsup.gif

My English is poor, I don't understand your ... icon_question.gif

"you may shut yourself to the markets which are still stubbornly high to justify your stance"

Happy with my action? 50-50, depending on the where the price is on a particular day. It is like on a mini roller coaster now. confused.gif

BUT ....

glad to be able to say that I am not worried now and do not ask myself should I sell the shares when some major negative events appear on everyday news. devil.gif

Like the song - My Way, "regret I have a few, but too few to mention." And this is not one of them! Ha.
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post May 29 2019, 12:07 PM

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So many experienced and proven investors has express their view that the valuation is extremely high and what the world did after 08 - massive global QE is unprecedented and by logic is not sustainable. This create the effect of massive increase in Asset Value as compared to yield. Which create this super big gap between rich and poor as rich get richer, cause the rich hold a lot of Assets which are now highly valued.

However many that have this view like Charlie Munger still has their feet in the water, because they just don't know when the music will stop or how this new QE and printing money dynamic will play out. And of all low yield item, stock is still the best place to be optimistic about i guess.

But then we just beat out the 90s - 00s dot com bubble bull run. So if history repeat itself there is a possibility we get wiped out 50 - 70% of our portfolio value especially on hot stock like the FANG gang. That is a scary possibility haha.
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post May 29 2019, 12:57 PM

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QUOTE(ChAOoz @ May 29 2019, 12:07 PM)
So many experienced and proven investors has express their view that the valuation is extremely high and what the world did after 08 - massive global QE is unprecedented and by logic is not sustainable. This create the effect of massive increase in Asset Value as compared to yield. Which create this super big gap between rich and poor as rich get richer, cause the rich hold a lot of Assets which are now highly valued.

However many that have this view like Charlie Munger still has their feet in the water, because they just don't know when the music will stop or how this new QE and printing money dynamic will play out. And of all low yield item, stock is still the best place to be optimistic about i guess.

But then we just beat out the 90s - 00s dot com bubble bull run. So if history repeat itself there is a possibility we get wiped out 50 - 70% of our portfolio value especially on hot stock like the FANG gang. That is a scary possibility haha.
*
If we continue to hold,.. and are not affected by margin calls, the mkt will always bounce back !
[Ancient]-XinG-
post May 29 2019, 12:57 PM

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QUOTE(ChAOoz @ May 29 2019, 12:07 PM)
So many experienced and proven investors has express their view that the valuation is extremely high and what the world did after 08 - massive global QE is unprecedented and by logic is not sustainable. This create the effect of massive increase in Asset Value as compared to yield. Which create this super big gap between rich and poor as rich get richer, cause the rich hold a lot of Assets which are now highly valued.

However many that have this view like Charlie Munger still has their feet in the water, because they just don't know when the music will stop or how this new QE and printing money dynamic will play out. And of all low yield item, stock is still the best place to be optimistic about i guess.

But then we just beat out the 90s - 00s dot com bubble bull run. So if history repeat itself there is a possibility we get wiped out 50 - 70% of our portfolio value especially on hot stock like the FANG gang. That is a scary possibility haha.
*
But if the fundamental of the gang is solid, will the 50% wipeofff possible?

Because back then bubble dot com was on not really stable income stream. Look at what we had now.... We can't leave our life without any of the fang products.

Can Stable consumer and income stream cushion the shock?

And some people point out that the tariff war is so small in number and most of the sell off recently are mainly sentimental and baseless.

What remain the true is high valuation. But I think high valuation in US equities I suppose.

Emerging and other market are way below their PE.

Btw, our local market had touch it's low on 1.6k. worthwhile to consider some dividend counter....
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post May 29 2019, 01:08 PM

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QUOTE(Ancient-XinG- @ May 29 2019, 12:57 PM)
But if the fundamental of the gang is solid, will the 50% wipeofff possible?

Because back then bubble dot com was on not really stable income stream. Look at what we had now.... We can't leave our life without any of the fang products.

Can Stable consumer and income stream cushion the shock?

And some people point out that the tariff war is so small in number and most of the sell off recently are mainly sentimental and baseless.

What remain the true is high valuation. But I think high valuation in US equities I suppose.

Emerging and other market are way below their PE.

Btw, our local market had touch it's low on 1.6k. worthwhile to consider some dividend counter....
*
Another dot com bubble?

Vik is not insisting, but asking for opinions.
user posted image
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post May 29 2019, 02:04 PM

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QUOTE(ChAOoz @ May 29 2019, 12:07 PM)
So many experienced and proven investors has express their view that the valuation is extremely high and what the world did after 08 - massive global QE is unprecedented and by logic is not sustainable. This create the effect of massive increase in Asset Value as compared to yield. Which create this super big gap between rich and poor as rich get richer, cause the rich hold a lot of Assets which are now highly valued.

However many that have this view like Charlie Munger still has their feet in the water, because they just don't know when the music will stop or how this new QE and printing money dynamic will play out. And of all low yield item, stock is still the best place to be optimistic about i guess.

But then we just beat out the 90s - 00s dot com bubble bull run. So if history repeat itself there is a possibility we get wiped out 50 - 70% of our portfolio value especially on hot stock like the FANG gang. That is a scary possibility haha.
*
High valuation is a consequence of u.s fed qe. Similarly, valuation will likely to contract with qt. How far and fast will depend on market sentiment.

Before dot-com bubble burst, most if not all dot-com stocks were not profitable. Fang is currently profitable and generating positive cash flow.

This post has been edited by icemanfx: May 29 2019, 02:12 PM
ChAOoz
post May 29 2019, 03:32 PM

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QUOTE(icemanfx @ May 29 2019, 02:04 PM)
High valuation is a consequence of u.s fed qe. Similarly, valuation will likely to contract with qt. How far and fast will depend on market sentiment.

Before dot-com bubble burst, most if not all dot-com stocks were not profitable. Fang is currently profitable and generating positive cash flow.
*
During the dot-com era, profitable and high growth company like Microsoft, Cisco, IBM, Oracle are all HOT stock that saw many of their value wipe out as well. But then their PE was even crazier back then. The difference is they survive and continue to grow.

But during the high confidence dot com time, many loss making tech company also has great valuation despite loss making. Much like the case of our ubers now. But sadly, people thought the dot.com bubble is all about not profitable company with a .com site. It's actually just a case of over confidence and non-realistic future expectation of the market.
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post May 29 2019, 03:39 PM

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QUOTE(Ancient-XinG- @ May 29 2019, 12:57 PM)
But if the fundamental of the gang is solid, will the 50% wipeofff possible?

Because back then bubble dot com was on not really stable income stream. Look at what we had now.... We can't leave our life without any of the fang products.

Can Stable consumer and income stream cushion the shock?

And some people point out that the tariff war is so small in number and most of the sell off recently are mainly sentimental and baseless.

What remain the true is high valuation. But I think high valuation in US equities I suppose.

Emerging and other market are way below their PE.

Btw, our local market had touch it's low on 1.6k. worthwhile to consider some dividend counter....
*
It has happen, during the height of dot com a lot of stable high profile tech stock had also enter people life like our current FANG. Eg Microsoft, Cisco, Ebay, Yahoo etc.

The crash also wipe off a big chunk of share holder value despite some of these company having good fundamentals such as income and revenue growth. But if you buy company with good fundamentals, you can rest easy that a market crash won't kill them and their value will likely recover in the long term. But still a 30 - 70% dent on your portfolio value will send you into panic and make irrational decision.
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post May 29 2019, 03:50 PM

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QUOTE(ChAOoz @ May 29 2019, 03:39 PM)
It has happen, during the height of dot com a lot of stable high profile tech stock had also enter people life like our current FANG. Eg Microsoft, Cisco, Ebay, Yahoo etc.

The crash also wipe off a big chunk of share holder value despite some of these company having good fundamentals such as income and revenue growth. But if you buy company with good fundamentals, you can rest easy that a market crash won't kill them and their value will likely recover in the long term. But still a 30 - 70% dent on your portfolio value will send you into panic and make irrational decision.
*
A lot of people said the same thing when I bought Amazon at 700s. To be honest, if a big correction comes, will go on a shopping spree.


icemanfx
post May 29 2019, 06:19 PM

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QUOTE(ChAOoz @ May 29 2019, 03:32 PM)
During the dot-com era, profitable and high growth company like Microsoft, Cisco, IBM, Oracle are all HOT stock that saw many of their value wipe out as well. But then their PE was even crazier back then. The difference is they survive and continue to grow.

But during the high confidence dot com time, many loss making tech company also has great valuation despite loss making. Much like the case of our ubers now. But sadly, people thought the dot.com bubble is all about not profitable company with a .com site. It's actually just a case of over confidence and non-realistic future expectation of the market.
*
During bull run, a change of company name to include dotcom would see stock price jump; stock price was exorbitant include established companies. Similarly, when market crash, panic set in, every stocks were effected. However, those with realistic business model survive and prosperous.

This post has been edited by icemanfx: May 29 2019, 06:20 PM
Hansel
post May 30 2019, 01:25 PM

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1) I guessed we are always talking abt good fundamentals,... and that having good fundamentals is ALL it takes for a 'good' company to survive,... have we not thought of the fact that in today's disruptive world, good fundamentals may turn into poor fundamentals in varying mkt conditions ?

2) We are all waiting for stocks to drop so that we can buy-in, and ride the tide up when mkt conditions improve,... how abt good stocks not dropping, and we buy in NOW, then ride the tide up from this level when mkt conditions improve ?
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post May 30 2019, 05:08 PM

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QUOTE(Hansel @ May 30 2019, 01:25 PM)
1) I guessed we are always talking abt good fundamentals,... and that having good fundamentals is ALL it takes for a 'good' company to survive,... have we not thought of the fact that in today's disruptive world, good fundamentals may turn into poor fundamentals in varying mkt conditions ?

2) We are all waiting for stocks to drop so that we can buy-in, and ride the tide up when mkt conditions improve,... how abt good stocks not dropping, and we buy in NOW, then ride the tide up from this level when mkt conditions improve ?
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When there is a transaction, there is a buyer and seller. Not everyone thinks alike.
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post May 30 2019, 05:44 PM

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QUOTE(icemanfx @ May 30 2019, 05:08 PM)
When there is a transaction, there is a buyer and seller. Not everyone thinks alike.
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Hey! i said the same thing regarding analyst views etc, for every bullish article there is a bearish article, for every buy call there will always be a sell call. And if someone is buying, definitely someone is buying.

In the end , you yourself(the reader) is responsible
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post May 30 2019, 05:52 PM

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QUOTE(Krv23490 @ May 30 2019, 05:44 PM)
Hey! i said the same thing regarding analyst views etc, for every bullish article there is a bearish article, for every buy call there will always be a sell call. And if someone is buying, definitely someone is buying.

In the end , you yourself(the reader) is responsible
*
Only time and own's wealth could tell who was correct. The rest is speculation.

This post has been edited by icemanfx: May 31 2019, 09:05 AM
Hansel
post May 31 2019, 03:50 AM

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QUOTE(icemanfx @ May 30 2019, 05:08 PM)
When there is a transaction, there is a buyer and seller. Not everyone thinks alike.
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QUOTE(Krv23490 @ May 30 2019, 05:44 PM)
Hey! i said the same thing regarding analyst views etc, for every bullish article there is a bearish article, for every buy call there will always be a sell call. And if someone is buying, definitely someone is buying.

In the end , you yourself(the reader) is responsible
*
QUOTE(icemanfx @ May 30 2019, 05:52 PM)
Only time and own's wealth could tell who is correct. The rest is speculation.
*
I'm aware of the buyer and seller sides - hence, my opinions above in 1) and 2) as mind-triggers...
TSplumberly
post Jun 22 2019, 09:44 AM

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Attached Image Attached Image
hmm.gif confused.gif doh.gif

This post has been edited by plumberly: Jun 22 2019, 09:47 AM
mapeyeo1
post Jun 22 2019, 11:01 AM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Jun 22 2019, 09:44 AM)
Attached Image Attached Image
hmm.gif  confused.gif  doh.gif
*
May I ask what this implies?
Cubalagi
post Jun 22 2019, 11:54 AM

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Negative yield means negative interest rate. Means for Borrower u borrow money u get money (instead of paying interest). For lender, U lend money u hv to pay the borrower.

This negative yield bonds is govt issued by countries facing deflation eg Japan, Europe. This is done to stimulate their economy, encourage ppl to borrow money n spend.

For the stock investor this is good, in the short term. In the long term, it's bad for everybody bcoz it's screwed up.
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QUOTE(mapeyeo1 @ Jun 22 2019, 11:01 AM)
May I ask what this implies?
*
https://qz.com/1647791/12-trillion-of-negat...istress-signal/
Hansel
post Jun 23 2019, 11:45 AM

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Debt bubbles of households, corporates, and even individuals all start from here,... When any of these debts are called back, one entity falls and the rest tumbles like dominoes...
icemanfx
post Jun 23 2019, 01:17 PM

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QUOTE(Hansel @ Jun 23 2019, 11:45 AM)
Debt bubbles of households, corporates, and even individuals all start from here,... When any of these debts are called back, one entity falls and the rest tumbles like dominoes...
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The house of cards will tumble when many loans are defaulted, need not be recalled.

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post Jun 23 2019, 01:36 PM

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QUOTE(Hansel @ Jun 23 2019, 11:45 AM)
Debt bubbles of households, corporates, and even individuals all start from here,... When any of these debts are called back, one entity falls and the rest tumbles like dominoes...
*
Closer to home, https://www.thestar.com.my/business/busines...es-on-the-rise/
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post Jun 23 2019, 02:27 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Jun 23 2019, 01:36 PM)
Did you clear all your stocks? I saw that u started this thread in August last year.
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post Jun 23 2019, 02:49 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Jun 23 2019, 01:36 PM)
Many of those bought multiple units through loan compression to flip are subprime. Given current housing stocks is about 25% overpriced from long term trend, foreclosure is expected to rise in next few years.
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QUOTE(icemanfx @ Jun 23 2019, 02:49 PM)
Many of those bought multiple units through loan compression to flip are subprime. Given current housing stocks is about 25% overpriced from long term trend, foreclosure is expected to rise in next few years.
*
After reading the NST's foreclosure article, I asked and feedback from a private bank staff is the bank already saw a drop in their profit LAST year due to this loan foreclosure.

It has already started. Getting better, getting worse, no one knows.

In my town, there are so many new business buildings under construction. One thing I still cannot understand is, why build here, build there while there are already so many unoccupied shops. My guess is 40-50% of the shops here are unoccupied. Maybe they have to start the construction as otherwise they will lose the land titles tendered from the local council due to the construction by-date clause.

Really pity those with completed shops but no tenants. Paying bank interest for the loan (eg RM5000 per month for RM1 million loan, RM10,000 per month for RM2 million etc).

Similar too many new business unoccupied buildings in your area?



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QUOTE(Cubalagi @ Jun 23 2019, 02:27 PM)
Did you clear all your stocks? I saw that u started this thread in August last year.
*
Cleared > 90% of my shares.

Yes, 6 months now after selling and still no recession. Ha. Waiting, waiting ...... bangwall.gif devil.gif confused.gif

No one can predict the recession date. But I feel better getting out early as not to see a ~ 50% drop in my share assets when the recession hits. bruce.gif wub.gif whistling.gif
Krv23490
post Jun 24 2019, 09:33 AM

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Far more money has been lost by investors preparing for corrections, or trying to anticipate corrections, than has been lost in corrections themselves.” – Peter Lynch

I think this applies if you are not going to retire soon. Since TS started this thread , if you continued DCA during the high volatility, would have made lots of money as we have reached a few ATH since TS started this thread
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post Jun 24 2019, 10:18 AM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Jun 24 2019, 08:44 AM)
Cleared > 90% of my shares.

Yes, 6 months now after selling and still no recession. Ha. Waiting, waiting ......  bangwall.gif  devil.gif  confused.gif

No one can predict the recession date. But I feel better getting out early as not to see a ~ 50% drop in my share assets when the recession hits.  bruce.gif  wub.gif  whistling.gif
*
was thinking if sell all my shares, dunno money put where wor blush.gif
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post Jun 24 2019, 10:28 AM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Jun 24 2019, 08:35 AM)
After reading the NST's foreclosure article, I asked and feedback from a private bank staff is the bank already saw a drop in their profit LAST year due to this loan foreclosure.

It has already started. Getting better, getting worse, no one knows.

In my town, there are so many new business buildings under construction. One thing I still cannot understand is, why build here, build there while there are already so many unoccupied shops. My guess is 40-50% of the shops here are unoccupied. Maybe they have to start the construction as otherwise they will lose the land titles tendered from the local council due to the construction by-date clause.

Really pity those with completed shops but no tenants. Paying bank interest for the loan (eg RM5000 per month for RM1 million loan, RM10,000 per month for RM2 million etc).

Similar too many new business unoccupied buildings in your area?
*
From planning, approval to launching, construction and completion takes a few years. many developers rush in during 2011-2014 property bull run, hence, many projects are under construction. property overhang is still widening. until property overhang is reduced substantially, property is continue on downtrend.

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QUOTE(Krv23490 @ Jun 24 2019, 09:33 AM)
Far more money has been lost by investors preparing for corrections, or trying to anticipate corrections, than has been lost in corrections themselves.” – Peter Lynch

I think this applies if you are not going to retire soon. Since TS started this thread , if you continued DCA during the high volatility, would have made lots of money as we have reached a few ATH since TS started this thread
*
There is always two sides to a coin/transaction.

bull run is amplified by herd sentiment. social psychology is likely to give more accurate outcome than data crunching.

Cubalagi
post Jun 24 2019, 11:05 AM

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QUOTE(Krv23490 @ Jun 24 2019, 09:33 AM)
I think this applies if you are not going to retire soon. Since TS started this thread , if you continued DCA during the high volatility, would have made lots of money as we have reached a few ATH since TS started this thread
*
I don't think he would hv made loads of money, if he stayed n DCA Not in Malaysian stock market now anyway. YTD KLCI is flat. So chances are he would lose some dividends. N if he DCA using mutual funds, he might be underwater due to the fees.

Of course we don't know wht next 6 month brings. But I think Malaysia stock market nowadays need to be nimble, in and out. Not blindly DCA.

This post has been edited by Cubalagi: Jun 24 2019, 11:26 AM
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post Jun 24 2019, 11:28 AM

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QUOTE(Cubalagi @ Jun 24 2019, 11:05 AM)
I don't think he would hv made loads of money, if he stayed n DCA  Not in Malaysian stock market now anyway. YTD KLCI is flat. So chances are he would lose some dividends. N if he DCA losing mutual funds, he might be underwater due to the fees.

Of course we don't know wht next 6 month brings. But I think Malaysia stock market nowadays need to be nimble, in and out. Not blindly DCA.
*
I too stay away from KLCI and only currently holding a few local stocks.

Our TS is quite knowledgable and has foreign investments, even I am a not seasoned investor ,but by constantly buying SP500 or AAXJ will make you good money.

My simple StashAway portfolio is +15% and I started it last November IINM, and top up every week .


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post Jun 24 2019, 11:46 AM

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QUOTE(Krv23490 @ Jun 24 2019, 11:28 AM)
I too stay away from KLCI and only currently holding a few local stocks.

Our TS is quite knowledgable and has foreign investments, even I am a not seasoned investor ,but by  constantly buying SP500 or AAXJ will make you good money.

My simple StashAway portfolio is +15% and I started it last November IINM, and top up every week .
*
I think you are lucky coz Dec was the bottom of the correction, n now both market are at record highs.

But I also think tht those markets can easily fall 50% or more in a recession.KLCI, not so much, coz we already suck.. 😆

So I hope that Stashaway algo is fast enough if tht happens.. I tried to open a Stashaway account but I wasn't approved coz I hv more than 1 property loans..

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QUOTE(Cubalagi @ Jun 24 2019, 11:46 AM)
I think you are lucky coz Dec was the bottom of the correction, n now both market are at record highs.

But I also think tht those markets can easily fall 50% or more in a recession.KLCI, not so much, coz we already suck.. 😆

So I hope that Stashaway algo is fast enough if tht happens.. I tried to open a Stashaway account but I wasn't approved coz I hv more than 1 property loans..
*
Wa, 50% , I too am looking forward for the recession if it comes, looking to buy some good dividend yielding stocks !

But I have added money in when the markets were at previous ATH as well though, so it all works out for now as SP500 just reached another ATH last week.

Let’s see how the G20 meeting this week goes
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post Jun 24 2019, 12:54 PM

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QUOTE(Krv23490 @ Jun 24 2019, 11:51 AM)
Wa, 50% , I too am looking forward for the recession if it comes, looking to buy some good dividend yielding stocks !

But I have added money in when the markets were at previous ATH as well though,  so it all works out for now as SP500 just reached another ATH last week.

Let’s see how the G20 meeting this week goes
*
Will u hv money at tht point in time tho.. 😂

Buying at top is ok for the US market. Life is not fair, they hv wacko President n their market still go up n up 😆 U try that (buy at tops) in Malaysia, Singapore n HK (China) markets.. U cry.

N even for US, will it continue forever? . the day of reckoning will come one day.. In 2008 SnP fell by more than 60% iirc.

This post has been edited by Cubalagi: Jun 24 2019, 12:58 PM
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post Jun 24 2019, 01:01 PM

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Sorry

S&P fell 56.4% in the last US recession

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/37740145/from/37740147/

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post Jun 24 2019, 01:10 PM

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QUOTE(Cubalagi @ Jun 24 2019, 12:54 PM)
Will u hv money at tht point in time tho.. 😂

Buying at top is ok for the US market. Life is not fair, they hv wacko President n their market still go up n up 😆 U try that (buy at tops) in Malaysia, Singapore n HK (China) markets.. U cry.

N even for US, will it continue forever? . the day of reckoning will come one day.. In 2008 SnP fell by more than 60% iirc.
*
Yes, I believe I will hehe, yes it will come one day! Don't dump everything inside, stay disciplined and within comfort level.

So you sold everything and holding on cash now ?
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post Jun 24 2019, 01:25 PM

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QUOTE(Krv23490 @ Jun 24 2019, 01:10 PM)
Yes, I believe I will hehe, yes it will come one day! Don't dump everything inside, stay disciplined and within comfort level.

So you sold everything and holding on cash now ?
*
Nope...not all in cash.

My investment portfolio is roughly about 30% dividend stocks in My n SG n another 10% HK/China.. The rest in cash, bonds n gold.

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post Jun 24 2019, 02:51 PM

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60% stocks and 40% cash now hmm...

3 months back my stock made up 30% only. hmm.gif
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post Jun 28 2019, 02:06 PM

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G20.. Trump meting Xi tomorrow...😅


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post Jun 29 2019, 05:03 PM

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Six months into 2019, the S&P 500 has returned 17%, marking the best first half in more than two decades. Europe’s benchmark has matched the feat. U.S. investment grade corporate bonds are having their strongest year ever.

On Christmas Eve, the S&P 500 was seven points from a bear market, and a stream of Wall Street prognosticators shuffled forth to pronounce the last rites. Since then, the gauge hit a record twice.

“Investors had very low conviction at the start of this year, but those who were brave enough to once again get into risk assets reaped rewards,” said Wouter Sturkenboom, chief investment strategist for EMEA & APAC at Northern Trust Asset Management. “It’s a good lesson for investors not to stay scared for too long.”


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/201...srnd=markets-vp


Good news from today's meeting as well

This post has been edited by Krv23490: Jun 29 2019, 05:04 PM
Cubalagi
post Jun 29 2019, 05:44 PM

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QUOTE(Krv23490 @ Jun 29 2019, 05:03 PM)
Good news from today's meeting as well
*
Disaster averted! For the time being at least.

Monday morning buy HSI Calls.
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post Jul 7 2019, 08:46 PM

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https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/201...ket-slump-ahead

Looks like DT will do his best to avoid a recession if he wants to win in the 2020 election. If he can achieve that, then delay till 2021 for the grand fishing. bangwall.gif ranting.gif devil.gif cry.gif sad.gif
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post Jul 7 2019, 10:45 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Jul 7 2019, 08:46 PM)
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/201...ket-slump-ahead

Looks like DT will do his best to avoid a recession if he wants to win in the 2020 election. If he can achieve that, then delay till 2021 for the grand fishing.  bangwall.gif  ranting.gif  devil.gif  cry.gif  sad.gif
*
So all in or all cash?

And is Huawei still banned?
icemanfx
post Jul 7 2019, 11:24 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Jul 7 2019, 08:46 PM)
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/201...ket-slump-ahead

Looks like DT will do his best to avoid a recession if he wants to win in the 2020 election. If he can achieve that, then delay till 2021 for the grand fishing.  bangwall.gif  ranting.gif  devil.gif  cry.gif  sad.gif
*
Easier for dt to disrupt the market than smooth accession.

as dt global trade war has slowed down or differed many investment, bubble has deflated somewhat. however, how much the balloon is deflated is another matter.

QUOTE(Yggdrasil @ Jul 7 2019, 10:45 PM)
So all in or all cash?

And is Huawei still banned?
*
huawei is only a pawn in u.s trade war with china.

Cubalagi
post Jul 8 2019, 12:50 AM

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I am currently HOLD. About 40% in Equities. Not buying more n not selling either. Wait and see.
Yggdrasil
post Jul 8 2019, 12:58 AM

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QUOTE(Cubalagi @ Jul 8 2019, 12:50 AM)
I am currently HOLD. About 40% in Equities. Not buying more n not selling either. Wait and see.
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Mind sharing what you're holding? I'm sitting at 20% Equities 80% Cash
Cubalagi
post Jul 8 2019, 02:14 AM

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QUOTE(Yggdrasil @ Jul 8 2019, 12:58 AM)
Mind sharing what you're holding? I'm sitting at 20% Equities 80% Cash
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Current holding Equities
Maybank (1155)
Bursa (1818)
China-ETF MYR (0829EA)

* counters might change anytime. I tend to take profit (usually too early) but will replace with some other stock. However, overall comfortable with 40% equity exposure atm.

This post has been edited by Cubalagi: Jul 8 2019, 02:32 AM
Hansel
post Jul 8 2019, 07:01 AM

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Hehe,... I am strategizing now to go into share margin financing - wanting to play a 'higher game' now.
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post Jul 8 2019, 11:20 PM

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QUOTE(Hansel @ Jul 8 2019, 07:01 AM)
Hehe,... I am strategizing now to go into share margin financing - wanting to play a 'higher game' now.
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Leverage amplify profits as well as losses.

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post Jul 8 2019, 11:25 PM

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QUOTE(Hansel @ Jul 8 2019, 07:01 AM)
Hehe,... I am strategizing now to go into share margin financing - wanting to play a 'higher game' now.
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TSplumberly
post Jul 9 2019, 09:22 AM

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Just curious ...

If the global banking health was at -8 (-10 to +10) in 2008, where is it now?
GetHappy
post Jul 9 2019, 10:08 AM

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Showtime747
post Jul 10 2019, 09:55 AM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Jul 9 2019, 09:22 AM)
Just curious ...

If the global banking health was at -8 (-10 to +10) in 2008, where is it now?
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It's a matter of opinion. Different people got different opinion.

I think after the 2008 financial crisis, governments and reserve banks are more experienced and have precedents to refer to. They also learnt what effective policies that can be deployed to tackle in advance problems that may likely to develop. So, it is less likely financial crisis the magnitude of the GFC happens again in such short time. Maybe 30 years later as human beings are forgetful and always greedy. But that would be caused by another new factor

Same like the Great market crash 1929 (where information flowed too slow) and Black Monday 1987 (where (mis)information flowed too quickly), the same cause is not likely to happened again as stock exchanges around the world have put in place more efficient flow of information. If crash happens again, it would be another factor.

Financial crisis / stock market correction used to be said happens every 10 years once. Happened in 1987 (October, close to 1988), 1998, 2008. Didn't happen in 2018 and it is now second half of 2019 already. Maybe because human beings has the ability to learn from past mistakes and therefore we are the only species with civilisation

I would say global banking health is at +5 now

This post has been edited by Showtime747: Jul 10 2019, 09:56 AM
TSplumberly
post Jul 10 2019, 01:04 PM

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QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Jul 10 2019, 09:55 AM)
It's a matter of opinion. Different people got different opinion.

I think after the 2008 financial crisis, governments and reserve banks are more experienced and have precedents to refer to. They also learnt what effective policies that can be deployed to tackle in advance problems that may likely to develop. So, it is less likely financial crisis the magnitude of the GFC happens again in such short time. Maybe 30 years later as human beings are forgetful and always greedy. But that would be caused by another new factor

Same like the Great market crash 1929 (where information flowed too slow) and Black Monday 1987 (where (mis)information flowed too quickly), the same cause is not likely to happened again as stock exchanges around the world have put in place more efficient flow of information. If crash happens again, it would be another factor.

Financial crisis / stock market correction used to be said happens every 10 years once. Happened in 1987 (October, close to 1988), 1998, 2008. Didn't happen in 2018 and it is now second half of 2019 already. Maybe because human beings has the ability to learn from past mistakes and therefore we are the only species with civilisation

I would say global banking health is at +5 now
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Thanks.

My gut feel is -1 for the global banks, in general.
markedestiny
post Jul 10 2019, 01:10 PM

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QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Jul 10 2019, 09:55 AM)

I would say global banking health is at +5 now
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Thank you for your insights.

The above quoted took into consideration the current crisis that Deutsche Bank is facing ?

Do you think this crisis could be one of the catalysts to recession similar to what happened to Lehman Bro in 2008 ?
Yggdrasil
post Jul 10 2019, 01:17 PM

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QUOTE(markedestiny @ Jul 10 2019, 01:10 PM)
Thank you for your insights.

The above quoted took into consideration the current crisis that Deutsche Bank is facing ?

Do you think this crisis could be one of the catalysts to recession similar to what happened to Lehman Bro in 2008 ?
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Next economic crisis unlikely to be banks. Banks already learnt their lesson.
Last time anyone can simply get a loan. Now there is stringent background checks and improved accounting standards to provide better financial reporting.
markedestiny
post Jul 10 2019, 02:33 PM

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QUOTE(Yggdrasil @ Jul 10 2019, 01:17 PM)
Next economic crisis unlikely to be banks. Banks already learnt their lesson.
Last time anyone can simply get a loan. Now there is stringent background checks and improved accounting standards to provide better financial reporting.
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I am not too convinced yet about the bolded above. Goldman S learned the lesson with its involvement in the 1MDB post 2008?

Nonetheless just to clarify in this context I am just point the coincidental parallel between Lehman Bro and Deutsche Bank and the catalysts to recession could be multifaceted.

This post has been edited by markedestiny: Jul 10 2019, 02:34 PM
Yggdrasil
post Jul 10 2019, 02:40 PM

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QUOTE(markedestiny @ Jul 10 2019, 02:33 PM)
I am not too convinced yet about the bolded above. Goldman S learned the lesson with its involvement in the 1MDB post 2008? 

Nonetheless just to clarify  in this context I am just point the coincidental parallel between Lehman Bro and Deutsche Bank and the catalysts to recession could be multifaceted.
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I'm referring to consumers you and me. Fraud can happen anytime.

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post Jul 10 2019, 03:23 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Jul 10 2019, 01:04 PM)
Thanks.

My gut feel is -1 for the global banks, in general.
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Compared to pre Global Financial Crisis, banks are much stronger. Read up on Basel I, Ii and III.

They are keeping higher capital, higher liquidity n better risk management. That's why Banks in general nowadays have lower profit growth. They are required to keep more cash/liquid instruments rather than deploying them more profitably. This has impacted their share price performance. Not just in Malaysia but almost everywhere.



Showtime747
post Jul 10 2019, 05:21 PM

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QUOTE(markedestiny @ Jul 10 2019, 01:10 PM)
Thank you for your insights.

The above quoted took into consideration the current crisis that Deutsche Bank is facing ?

Do you think this crisis could be one of the catalysts to recession similar to what happened to Lehman Bro in 2008 ?
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No insight at all, just my personal opinion biggrin.gif

Based on my limited reading, Deutsche bank’s problem is internal business decisions and directions (high risk appetite) the management took, which landed them in such predicament now. It does not happen overnight, but years of business strategy which turned bad. I would equate it to the likes of Nokia and Kodak, the downfall which was a result of series of bad management decisions.

The health of banking system depends more on the structural integrity of the whole industry, which is the collective responsibilities of the different governments.

The collapse of Lehman Bros (and a few others) was mainly due to sub-prime loans, which at that time was not regulated by US banking regulators. The whole financial industry were involved, even affected outside of USA as the banks packaged it and re-sold the sub-prime loans overseas.

So I think Duetsche Bank’s case, which is a result of bad internal management decisions, could not be compared to Lehman Bros. collapse
Showtime747
post Jul 10 2019, 05:30 PM

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QUOTE(markedestiny @ Jul 10 2019, 02:33 PM)
I am not too convinced yet about the bolded above. Goldman S learned the lesson with its involvement in the 1MDB post 2008? 

Nonetheless just to clarify  in this context I am just point the coincidental parallel between Lehman Bro and Deutsche Bank and the catalysts to recession could be multifaceted.
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Goldman Sachs’s sold the 1MDB loan guaranteed by a sovereign government (almost risk free) at 6% to investor. In the process they pocketed 10% of fees $600m !

If sub-prime loans is used to compare to 1MDB loan, 1MDB loan deal is the best deal ever packaged by a bank for lender. Comparing hell vs heaven

Too bad malaysia is on the wrong end
ViktorJ
post Jul 10 2019, 08:21 PM

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QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Jul 10 2019, 05:21 PM)
No insight at all, just my personal opinion  biggrin.gif

Based on my limited reading, Deutsche bank’s problem is internal business decisions and directions (high risk appetite) the management took, which landed them in such predicament now. It does not happen overnight, but years of business strategy which turned bad. I would equate it to the likes of Nokia and Kodak, the downfall which was a result of series of bad management decisions.

The health of banking system depends more on the structural integrity of the whole industry, which is the collective responsibilities of the different governments.

The collapse of Lehman Bros (and a few others) was mainly due to sub-prime loans, which at that time was not regulated by US banking regulators. The whole financial industry were involved, even affected outside of USA as the banks packaged it and re-sold the sub-prime loans overseas.

So I think Duetsche Bank’s case, which is a result of bad internal management decisions, could not be compared to Lehman Bros. collapse
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Yeah, I agree. Lehman Bros collapse and Duetsche Bank are quite different in nature. True, the German bank does have its fair share of fraud cases, but it did not suffer from the systemic failure that smashed Lehman, Bear Stearns and Merrill Lynch.

As you have pointed out, the narrow POV from some is causing them to mistake 1 bank's performance with the entire financial system collapse (in 2008).
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post Jul 10 2019, 09:21 PM

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QUOTE(Yggdrasil @ Jul 10 2019, 01:17 PM)
Next economic crisis unlikely to be banks. Banks already learnt their lesson.
Last time anyone can simply get a loan. Now there is stringent background checks and improved accounting standards to provide better financial reporting.
*
As others posters have mentioned, Basel III and Dodd-Frank have indeed improved things.

However, I think that it would only make the next 'crisis' less severe, rather than impossible to happen.

Also, I would hardly say banks have learnt their lesson. Do a quick google search as to what kinds of malpractice fines banks have received AFTER 2008.
QUOTE(Yggdrasil @ Jul 10 2019, 02:40 PM)
I'm referring to consumers you and me. Fraud can happen anytime.
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Retail loans are just ONE aspect of the financial system, hardly THE yardstick of financial system health. Comparing MY retail NPL with the global financial system is... kind of weird.

Speaking of fraud, it is one of the major triggering factor of the 2008 crisis. So yeah, discounting that is a bit weird too.

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post Jul 10 2019, 09:47 PM

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If taking into account the broader financial system entities outside of just global banks to include non-banks such as insurance companies, pension funds, open-ended funds (i.e. mutual funds and exchange traded funds), structured credit funds etc, I would say we are at -3/10 right now.
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post Jul 10 2019, 10:10 PM

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All time highhhhhhhh
Yggdrasil
post Jul 10 2019, 10:13 PM

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QUOTE(ViktorJ @ Jul 10 2019, 09:47 PM)
If taking into account the broader financial system entities outside of just global banks to include non-banks such as insurance companies, pension funds, open-ended funds (i.e. mutual funds and exchange traded funds), structured credit funds etc, I would say we are at -3/10 right now.
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Cool. So you're all cash right?
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post Jul 10 2019, 10:29 PM

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QUOTE(Yggdrasil @ Jul 10 2019, 10:13 PM)
Cool. So you're all cash right?
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Substantial cash, yes.

But nah, not all cash. I still have plenty of exposure to almost every market, just positioned inversely.




TSplumberly
post Jul 11 2019, 08:40 AM

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QUOTE(Cubalagi @ Jul 10 2019, 03:23 PM)
Compared to pre Global Financial Crisis, banks are much stronger. Read up on Basel I, Ii and III.

They are keeping higher capital, higher liquidity n better risk management. That's why Banks in general nowadays have lower profit growth. They are required to keep more cash/liquid instruments rather than deploying them more profitably. This has impacted their share price performance. Not just in Malaysia but almost everywhere.
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Noted and thanks.

Despite the higher reserve requirement resulting from the previous crisis, I don't think it will save them all when the real crisis comes. Like the common myth, too big to fall mentality?

confused.gif cry.gif doh.gif


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post Jul 11 2019, 09:50 AM

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QUOTE(Ancient-XinG- @ Jul 10 2019, 10:10 PM)
All time highhhhhhhh
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Yea man ! SP500 touch 3000 for the first time. Wanted to sell my AMZN shares before G20 meeting, glad I didn't
Cubalagi
post Jul 11 2019, 11:07 AM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Jul 11 2019, 08:40 AM)
Noted and thanks.

Despite the higher reserve requirement resulting from the previous crisis, I don't think it will save them all when the real crisis comes. Like the common myth, too big to fall mentality?

:confused:  cry.gif  doh.gif
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Too big too fail is not a myth, post 2008.

Under Basel they are called systemically important financial institutions and are subjected regularly to stress tests by regulators to ensure that they have enough capital in event of a crisis.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemicall...ial_institution

You have to accept the fact that Banks have improved a lot terms of capacity to face financial crisis. However tht is also a problem now because they are required to keep too much capital that their profitability suffers.

DB Is a prime example of this. DB is not having lack of money problems. It has too much money, not enough profits. And because in Europe they have negative interest rate, DB has to pay for that cash. With Germany economic. slowdown and trade war, they have problem with giving out loans. U combine the two and u will understand DB problem.

In this region, same challenges DBS, OCBC, Maybank etc..onlynot as bad Asean still have decent growth and interest rate not yet negative.
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post Jul 11 2019, 01:57 PM

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QUOTE(Cubalagi @ Jul 11 2019, 11:07 AM)
Too big too fail is not a myth, post 2008.


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Sorry for my poor english.

What I meant is, like Enron which was huge, people thought it was too big for it to fall. But it did fall.

Ditto with the higher bank reserve, people will think the banks will not fall during a major crisis, but some will. Thus the myth. Darwin's survival of the fittest comes in then.

This post has been edited by plumberly: Jul 11 2019, 02:25 PM
GetHappy
post Jul 11 2019, 02:43 PM

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S&P breached 3000 for first time ever coupled with probably fed interest rate cuts, stocks n REITs are sure to soar even higher and then inflation kicks in and increase back rates, shares will fall. Cyclical.
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post Jul 11 2019, 04:14 PM

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QUOTE(Krv23490 @ Jul 11 2019, 09:50 AM)
Yea man ! SP500 touch 3000 for the first time. Wanted to sell my AMZN shares before G20 meeting, glad I didn't
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nice choice. Economy is bad but last few month indeed I think oversell. my pick is FB drool.gif
cherroy
post Jul 11 2019, 04:42 PM

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QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Jul 10 2019, 09:55 AM)
Financial crisis / stock market correction used to be said happens every 10 years once. Happened in 1987 (October, close to 1988), 1998, 2008. Didn't happen in 2018 and it is now second half of 2019 already. Maybe because human beings has the ability to learn from past mistakes and therefore we are the only species with civilisation

I would say global banking health is at +5 now
*
Actually we got crash in 2016~2017, (oil price) and many oil related stocks crashed massively and not recovering until now, and some went burst as well.
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post Jul 11 2019, 04:45 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Jul 11 2019, 01:57 PM)
Sorry for my poor english.

What I meant is, like Enron which was huge, people thought it was too big for it to fall. But it did fall.

Ditto with the higher bank reserve, people will think the banks will not fall during a major crisis, but some will. Thus the myth. Darwin's survival of the fittest comes in then.
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Enron is not a bank lol. And Enron happened during 2001.
Of course it's hard to imagine a big company to fail. Like who would expect Google or Facebook to fall?
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post Jul 11 2019, 04:51 PM

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QUOTE(Yggdrasil @ Jul 10 2019, 01:17 PM)
Next economic crisis unlikely to be banks. Banks already learnt their lesson.
Last time anyone can simply get a loan. Now there is stringent background checks and improved accounting standards to provide better financial reporting.
*
If we look at history, every crash always come in new "form", or in other word, always in new area.

1986 Market crash
1997 AFC
2000 Dotcom bubble
2008 Global financial crisis
2016 oil price crash.
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post Jul 11 2019, 05:14 PM

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QUOTE(foofoosasa @ Jul 11 2019, 04:14 PM)
nice choice. Economy is bad but last few month indeed I think oversell. my pick is FB  drool.gif
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I think cant go wrong with FANG, been holding since 750s, bought 1 more share at 1700.

Let's see how it plays out during earnings in a couple of weeks
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post Jul 11 2019, 05:41 PM

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QUOTE(Krv23490 @ Jul 11 2019, 05:14 PM)
I think cant go wrong with FANG, been holding since 750s, bought 1 more share at 1700.

Let's see how it plays out during earnings in a couple of weeks
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How much equity exposure u have in your investment portfolio atm?
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QUOTE(cherroy @ Jul 11 2019, 04:51 PM)
If we look at history, every crash always come in new "form", or in other word, always in new area.

1986 Market crash
1997 AFC
2000 Dotcom bubble
2008 Global financial crisis
2016 oil price crash.
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Yup. Maybe this time is tech? Haha. I do think a lot of tech stocks are overvalued.
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post Jul 11 2019, 06:59 PM

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QUOTE(Krv23490 @ Jul 11 2019, 05:14 PM)
I think cant go wrong with FANG, been holding since 750s, bought 1 more share at 1700.

Let's see how it plays out during earnings in a couple of weeks
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For me I will try avoid Neflix nod.gif
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post Jul 11 2019, 07:31 PM

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QUOTE(Cubalagi @ Jul 11 2019, 05:41 PM)
How much equity exposure u have in your investment portfolio atm?
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If just pure equities , 17% US, 13% Malaysian equities. Not counting EQ UT and ETFs
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post Jul 11 2019, 07:33 PM

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QUOTE(foofoosasa @ Jul 11 2019, 06:59 PM)
For me I will try avoid Neflix  nod.gif
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Sorry double post, I thought the same last time man, I bought at 100, sold at 110. Everyone said they could not grow anymore and it was way overvalued.

They will be the first to hit and hardest when a downturn hits though

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