Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

4 Pages  1 2 3 > » Bottom

Outline · [ Standard ] · Linear+

 Clearing stocks before the coming crash, what have I missed out in the analysis?

views
     
Boon3
post Dec 31 2018, 07:59 AM

10k Club
********
All Stars
15,942 posts

Joined: Jun 2008
QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Dec 22 2018, 08:10 PM)
Percentage dropped in KLCI for the period Aug-23 (when you started this thread) to Dec-7 (2 weeks ago when you sold your shares) is  -7.20%

Let's say a person has a portfolio of RM200,000

If sell earlier on Aug-23 instead of Dec-7, the amount "saved" would be RM14,394

Ie. if sell on Aug-23, the amount "saved" should be enough to buy a Nikon Z6 + a Yamaha digital piano....
*
My 3 sens.

This is rather a market timing strategy. wink.gif

Timed to sell and then timed to buy. Difficult to execute, mistakes prone.

icon_rolleyes.gif

Boon3
post Dec 31 2018, 09:56 AM

10k Club
********
All Stars
15,942 posts

Joined: Jun 2008
QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Dec 31 2018, 08:58 AM)
Happy new year bro !

Yes I agree with you. My calculation is just a rough calculation based on KLCI index, a broad indication of how timing of selling in a falling market would affect the returns of one’s investment

For individuals, it all depends on which individual stocks he owns. I am sure there are a few stocks did not drop, or even gain. Like some reits (IGB for example). Put in dividend or bonus issues, the returns may not be as bad

So, each individual portfolio would perform differently, but broadly, KLCI dropped about -7% for the period.

I am more interested how plumberly buy European stocks. Apparently he doesn’t want to share....but it’s ok. Do you have any idea ?
*
Sorry to butt in.. laugh.gif

So the theory is to clear the stock before the coming crash...

if the user waited till Dec only sell, DEPENDING on which stock (and using KLSE as the base example), some stocks would have fallen more than 50% from its peak, whilst, yes there are some that had held firm and in fact, still moving on up.

*wouldn't it be a much more logical if one sold BASED on fundamental reasons rather than assumption of market crash?*



And so where are we today? ie how would one define the current markets?

Have the markets crashed already since few months ago?
Or the real crash is yet to happen?
Or the market did not crash, it was only a mere correction?




Boon3
post Dec 31 2018, 11:36 AM

10k Club
********
All Stars
15,942 posts

Joined: Jun 2008
QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Dec 31 2018, 11:12 AM)
Questions every investor would ask, and wish he has the answers

Only god knows the answer, assuming god can time travel

Since nobody is god here, at the end of every debate, there would be no answer. All answers are "horse behind cannon"

I would go along with "gut feeling". When you have the strongest feeling to sell or buy, don't resist. Do what your inner most tells you what to do.

Because if I want to die, I prefer to die in my own hands. Nobody else to blame.
*
.... these would have been my exact questions I would be asking if I would had adapted such strategy for my trading..




Boon3
post Feb 20 2019, 09:22 AM

10k Club
********
All Stars
15,942 posts

Joined: Jun 2008
QUOTE(Boon3 @ Dec 31 2018, 09:56 AM)
Sorry to butt in..  laugh.gif

So the theory is to clear the stock before the coming crash...

if the user waited till Dec only sell, DEPENDING on which stock (and using KLSE as the base example), some stocks would have fallen more than 50% from its peak, whilst, yes there are some that had held firm and in fact, still moving on up.

*wouldn't it be a much more logical if one sold BASED on fundamental reasons rather than assumption of market crash?*
And so where are we today? ie how would one define the current markets?

Have the markets crashed already since few months ago?
Or the real crash is yet to happen?
Or the market did not crash, it was only a mere correction?

*
Markets trades to as per future expectations...
Many months ago, the US stocks traded based on insane earnings projections.
Without those rocket numbers (many implied CAGR profits of close to 30% laugh.gif) , markets were simply pricey.
Then the trade tariffs came.
Profits started to slump and the market reacted in EXPECTATION of lower earnings...
Now we have the trade talks... which implies the possibility that profits declines could end....
Hence the markets .........

Perhaps this is proving CLEARLY again that you do not and should not attempt to time the market (LIKE ANTICIPATION OF A MARKET CRASH).....

icon_rolleyes.gif

Boon3
post Feb 20 2019, 11:32 AM

10k Club
********
All Stars
15,942 posts

Joined: Jun 2008
QUOTE(markedestiny @ Feb 20 2019, 10:18 AM)



QUOTE

It's risk mitigation for some people with all the signals/charts/data or whatever analysis that they are monitoring especially if they are heavily invested in equities and they are learning from history...


Yes, of course, understanding and managing the risk is utterly paramount but shouldn't one understand the theory and risk of a particular strategy first? The strategy of clearing stocks assuming a crash would happen is simply predicting an event would happen. And such a strategy is simply risky itself as the user would most likely get it wrong by either exiting the stocks way too early or way too late.

And then recessionary data. Such data is lagging. The confirmation of recession might take several months after it has happened... or not.

If you are new to stocks and I have one and only advice. Paper trade or paper invest.. Many lose money because they don't have the patience to study in depth the markets and the trading or investing strategies... They just dive in.... and when they are wrong, they never admit they are wrong by cutting losses. They just sit and hope that the market will go up back to their cost and correct their initial mistakes... A 50% drop in a stock, would need the stock to double up just to recover their cost....



Boon3
post Feb 21 2019, 02:22 PM

10k Club
********
All Stars
15,942 posts

Joined: Jun 2008
QUOTE(markedestiny @ Feb 20 2019, 01:19 PM)
That's why I have stay invested, selectively.  Already invested in KLSE, SGX and HKEX.
*
... er...
Boon3
post Feb 26 2019, 01:06 PM

10k Club
********
All Stars
15,942 posts

Joined: Jun 2008
QUOTE(plumberly @ Feb 26 2019, 12:32 PM)
First, let me recap, my intention is NOT to time the market, sell high and buy low. Just want to minimise my losses when the global recession hits. Ya ya, no one knows the timing when it will hit. I just want to get out before it hits. Then I should not be in shares? I beg to differ. Normal market fluctuations I can take. But this huge recession drop, I don't want to repeat the 1998 mistake. Learn from my mistake (I sold all my other shares before the 2008 crash except this one).

A quick overview on where I am after selling my shares ...

[attachmentid=10191012]

Lugi by about 3.7% as the price has gained in recent month.  bangwall.gif

No regret. Ha.  tongue.gif

After selling, dont feel that worried when I hear bad news on that industry, global economy, politics, Trump, BREXIT, Germany, Italy, China etc etc. Don't have to worry about this part of my retirement fund now.  rclxm9.gif

Learn and enjoy the ship journey as it gets into stormy sea! Ha.  :confused:  doh.gif

Cheerio.
*
Recession data is lagging. You do know that, right? The confirmation of any recession is based on past data. Since there is no confirmation, your market action of selling is based on the assumption that the upcoming economic data will show retraction. An assumption where one could be right or wrong. A guessing game where one attempts to time their market strategy in order to benefit their portfolio...

If this is not market timing, what is?

wink.gif

Boon3
post Feb 26 2019, 01:09 PM

10k Club
********
All Stars
15,942 posts

Joined: Jun 2008
And of course, once again...

*wouldn't it be a much more logical if one sold BASED on fundamental reasons rather than assumption of market crash/recession?*
Boon3
post Feb 26 2019, 01:48 PM

10k Club
********
All Stars
15,942 posts

Joined: Jun 2008
QUOTE(plumberly @ Feb 26 2019, 01:30 PM)
Yes, lagging. Studied a few companies for the 2008 crash. Thus decided to get out when there are too many bad news here, bad news there, and not after it has happened.

Then it will be too late with the >50% drop in price. Like in 2008, I got out 1-2 years before the crash.
*
If you had stick to fundamental reasons alone and not economic data, you probably would have cashed out in May....
Boon3
post Feb 26 2019, 02:10 PM

10k Club
********
All Stars
15,942 posts

Joined: Jun 2008
QUOTE(plumberly @ Feb 26 2019, 01:57 PM)
Wish I had. Then more $$$. Ha. Mine is more on global economic data as that company is fundamentally strong. Seeing some of the before 2008 crash patterns and thus I took the early exit.
*
Economic data is always fuzzy....
Boon3
post Feb 26 2019, 02:31 PM

10k Club
********
All Stars
15,942 posts

Joined: Jun 2008
QUOTE(markedestiny @ Feb 26 2019, 02:08 PM)
I am kinda agreed with his statement, when recession comes, there will be 'blood on the street' regardless how strong fundamentally the stock is until the market recovers.
*
Of course that's true but that's only if and if the recession is proven to be true. Right?

The problem is the assumption that the recession will happen.......
Boon3
post Feb 26 2019, 04:05 PM

10k Club
********
All Stars
15,942 posts

Joined: Jun 2008
QUOTE(markedestiny @ Feb 26 2019, 02:53 PM)
The assumptions could come from some of the recession indicators which one could make reference to, but these are not crystal ball to predict exactly when it will happen...so yeah,  up to one's risk appetite  to decide for himself.

Although TS tried seeking opinion on his exit strategy, the decision on this is solely his,  and he has managed to exit just before the December rout lol  rclxms.gif

If i recalled, TS has shared some of the criteria which seems to be the fundamentals of the stocks he bought and hence his decision on when to exit.  It is just my opinion that his criteria has too many fundamentals  to consider for each stocks but he managed anyway.

Looking back, I am interested if he ticked all the criteria he set for his stocks  when he exit?    biggrin.gif  plumberly?
*
Assumption is still assumption.....

Well, there are some who would argue that perhaps Nov/Dec would have been ideal time to buy, instead of selling. wink.gif

Boon3
post Feb 27 2019, 10:15 AM

10k Club
********
All Stars
15,942 posts

Joined: Jun 2008
QUOTE(plumberly @ Feb 27 2019, 08:40 AM)
If you are referring to the table I used earlier, that one is to look ahead, the positives and negatives in selling the shares, then what can I do to maximise the positives and minimise the negatives.  hmm.gif

Cannot get 100% gains as the market is beyond anyone's control. Just do my best in plotting the journey, asking others for insight, etc.  icon_idea.gif

Knowing where I am now, would I have kept the shares and not sold them if I could turn back time?  confused.gif

No. I may have lost 3% but I gained SWAN. Ha.  rclxm9.gif

Some may disagree with my approach. Everyone can have his/her view (everyone can fly!). Just do your own analysis and then decide.  doh.gif  thumbsup.gif

The only time I can tell you we are in recession is AFTER the recession has started.   devil.gif  icon_rolleyes.gif
*
I do believe you got it seriously wrong with your mindset. I've entered this discussion BECAUSE it was a 'fair' market strategy. Sell before a recession or sell before a market crash. It's a worthwhile discussion.

Now, your critics (me included) had brought before you the RISKS of such a strategy. A strategy which is based on economic data and factors. In which I have mentioned economic data is fuzzy and that recessionary data is lagging. You wouldn't know till it happen or NOT HAPPEN. And it's a known fact that economist gets the forecasts very so wrong so often.

For example..
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


So you want to USE the strategy of CLEARING STOCKS BEFORE THE COMING CRASH...

When would the crash happen? Is it certain it would happen? Or what we had seen last year was nothing but a mere correction of an extreme long bull?

This is MARKET TIMING AND IF THIS IS NOT WHAT IS THEN?

Yes?

Now, if you cannot fathom and understand market timing and even acknowledged the risk involved, what's the point of discussing then?

Oh, yes to each to their own. Their way, his way, her way, my way. Oh yes. No doubt.

But then, what's the point of the posting then?

The funniest thing is that you ended the post by stating 'The only time I can tell you we are in recession is AFTER the recession has started.' rolleyes.gif biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by Boon3: Feb 27 2019, 10:16 AM
Boon3
post Feb 27 2019, 10:21 AM

10k Club
********
All Stars
15,942 posts

Joined: Jun 2008
By the way...

https://seekingalpha.com/article/3970998-us...ors-time-market

http://people.stern.nyu.edu/adamodar/New_H...gapproaches.htm

http://systemtradersuccess.com/the-use-of-...-market-timing/

There's even books...

https://www.amazon.com/Time-Markets-Technic...t/dp/0132931931

icon_rolleyes.gif
Boon3
post Feb 27 2019, 11:06 AM

10k Club
********
All Stars
15,942 posts

Joined: Jun 2008
QUOTE(plumberly @ Feb 27 2019, 10:25 AM)
Thanks.

Have seen 2 of the above. There are many others.
*
You are welcome.

Glad you realise and understand why we say you are timing the market.

Food for thought.

1. The last US recession. Was there not a clear sell sign one could use instead of using recessionary data?

2. That last recession, how long did it last? Compared to the long term SP chart? Wasn't it just a blip, looking back? Would a better strategy be holding the stocks for a longer term? (assuming that you are not a trader)

3. Again, with the help of back data and the long term SP chart. Stocks rebounded when? Didn't it not rebound during the midst of the recession?
Boon3
post Feb 27 2019, 02:35 PM

10k Club
********
All Stars
15,942 posts

Joined: Jun 2008
QUOTE(spiderman17 @ Feb 27 2019, 01:27 PM)
what were the signals/reasons available in May ?
*
Well if you had stuck to earnings, one should have seen that valuations were rich, earnings multiples high, earnings growth were over extended and had signs of slowing down but market still wanted to assign insane high growth projections and with Trump having a hard on for trade wars, wasn't it time to take profits?
Boon3
post Feb 28 2019, 04:31 PM

10k Club
********
All Stars
15,942 posts

Joined: Jun 2008
QUOTE(plumberly @ Feb 28 2019, 11:00 AM)

*
QUOTE
***  My interpretation of market timing is to buy low sell high (I may be wrong with my interpretation) - I sold during the decline from that peak (not at the peak) and no intention to buy that again. That is why I stuck to saying I wasnt market timing. If market timing is waiting for something and then buy or sell, then I am guilty. Ha. Then day traders are all market timing based on technical analysis, eg, buy/sell at the low and high supports.


Do try search and research more on the topic market timing. Reason I highlight to you is NOT to say market timing doesn't work but to share the idea that market timing is a rather risky strategy, where one could easily be wrong as they could be correct.

QUOTE

1. The last US recession. Was there not a clear sell sign one could use instead of using recessionary data?

*** Like to learn.
The last US recession was from Dec 2007 to June 2009. That was the official number (after several revised figures, iirc). As you know it was caused by the subprime mortgage crisis. Now instead of focusing on the lagging recessionary figures, the problems in the US housing market DID not happen overnight. The warning signs were as far back as 2006. Even the stock market itself gave warning as early as end Nov 2006 (iirc). Focusing on the economics is like watching the forest and not focusing on the tree. And market valuation on a lot of stocks were far too optimistic back in early 2006 too.

QUOTE
3. Again, with the help of back data and the long term SP chart. Stocks rebounded when? Didn't it not rebound during the midst of the recession?

***  Indexes may show a different faster recovery than individual companies like the one I sold.


Of course, not all stock follow the index trend. There's always the exception. In any bull market, there's always a bad bear market stock (like Parkson for example) and in every bear market, there still could exist gems who beats the general market hands down... but this isn't what we are focusing on, right?




Boon3
post Mar 3 2019, 07:16 PM

10k Club
********
All Stars
15,942 posts

Joined: Jun 2008
QUOTE(plumberly @ Mar 1 2019, 11:17 AM)
Noted and thanks.
*
Let's look at some simple alternative. I had mentioned.. "If you had stick to fundamental reasons alone and not economic data, you probably would have cashed out in May...." in which I was asked "what were the signals/reasons available in May ?"

My reply was of course..

QUOTE(Boon3 @ Feb 27 2019, 02:35 PM)
Well if you had stuck to earnings, one should have seen that valuations were rich, earnings multiples high, earnings growth were over extended and had signs of slowing down but market still wanted to assign insane high growth projections and with Trump having a hard on for trade wars, wasn't it time to take profits?
*
Now of course talk is always cheap. Sometimes worth less than 3 sens.

Now I had actually posted several postings on the risks factor. There are several postings but let me highlight one dated April 2018. See post #1523 or you read post #1503 dated Mar 2018.

Would this be a better alternative than selling based on economic recession numbers in Dec 2018?


*discussion only. Not to say who is right or wrong*
Boon3
post Mar 3 2019, 07:18 PM

10k Club
********
All Stars
15,942 posts

Joined: Jun 2008
Sorry 1503 should be 1507
Boon3
post Mar 4 2019, 07:54 AM

10k Club
********
All Stars
15,942 posts

Joined: Jun 2008
QUOTE(plumberly @ Mar 3 2019, 07:23 PM)
Thanks.

"Would this be a better alternative than selling based on economic recession numbers in Dec 2018?"

To me, Dec was just the cloudy rainy sky before the coming big storm. Ha. That is, not recession, just correction. Rightly or wrongly, I use >20%  drop as the yardstick for recession.

P/S I get this feeling that you think I now regret selling it in Dec. No, happy now that I don't worry about that portion of my retirement fund dropping by 50% should recession appear in the coming weeks/months. Really. Still OK if the next recession only appears 1-2 years later. That capital preservation is priority 1 for me now.
*
Huh.

All I did was share 2 conclusive evidence that one doesn't need to rely on economic recessionary figures. First one was for avoiding the recession caused by the subprimw crisis. Second one was one could easily, easily sold out in May 2018.

End.

4 Pages  1 2 3 > » Top
 

Change to:
| Lo-Fi Version
0.0206sec    0.88    7 queries    GZIP Disabled
Time is now: 12th December 2025 - 11:23 PM