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 Clearing stocks before the coming crash, what have I missed out in the analysis?

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cherroy
post Aug 23 2018, 11:38 AM

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Time the market is impossible task to do.
If market valuation indeed expensive, just trim down the holding.

Totally clearing up is not advisable (especially one is holding on good quality stock) unless one can hit the timing exactly.

What if clearing up, the market continue to go up 10~20% before the crash?
Eg.
A stock you hold now is 10.00, expect market crash, clear up.
But A still going up to 13.00

1-2 years later, market crash, A stock drop 20%, back to 10.00 level.
You buy back at 10.00, seems gain nothing in the process of 'guessing" the crash timing.

A good stock, even experiencing crash after crash, over the long time, it is still going up and way higher than before.

Having said that, the market is indeed experiencing one of longest bull run in the history due to unprecedented massive QE pumping.



cherroy
post Aug 23 2018, 04:09 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Aug 23 2018, 03:12 PM)

[attachmentid=9986916]
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If one thinks equities is indeed heading for crash, can bank on bond.
Bond price (treasuries, sovereign bond) highly may shoot to roof if market crash.
So don't need to clear off all investment, even if market is crashing.
There are a lot of avenue to hedge on it.

Alternatively, one can still hold on good stocks, but at the same time buy some short (index) through futures market, to hedge upon market crash.

PBB price was 3.xx prior before 97 crash, it crashed to below 1.00 during the crisis.
So even one bought prior before crash at 3.xx, one still makes good return after 20 years later.

So you don't need good timing to make money in the market, but you need to pick a right stock to make money.

Yes, good timing, can make extra more, and also it is indeed wise to rebalancing/trim down and increase cash level if market is expensive, but at the same times, it is needless to get the timing exactly, or keep on guessing when the market will crash.

Don't bet when the market will down, as well as don't bet which stock will shoot up tomorrow or next month.


cherroy
post Aug 29 2018, 03:05 PM

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QUOTE(markedestiny @ Aug 29 2018, 02:37 PM)
I'd be surprised if they did not discuss or take into consideration of the possibility of his impeachment, and yet encouraged investor to look far ahead into 2020
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The impeachment is unlikely or very low possibility only.

Also US market is mature enough that the market generally won't be affected greatly by who is the president, as long as the economy is growing (which is red hot currently for US), and corporate earning is good, and interest rate is subdued.

The interest rate situation has more risk than impeachment.
Should pay more attention to the flatten yield curve, it may give more indication how market may behave.

cherroy
post Aug 30 2018, 09:42 AM

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QUOTE(markedestiny @ Aug 29 2018, 04:55 PM)
S&P 500 already broken record,  longest bull run since last crash, still can continue? Any good reasons, other than Trumponomics?

As it is, I still think the market is overly optimistic, taking every opportunities to go bullish
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The USD strength, and previous QE money around the globe that flowing back to US + tax cut money + dovish Fed, that resulted the bull keep on charging.

Based on history (which repeating many times) market won't tumbled if they were not making new high.
So you need the market keep on going up a steep rate, before it can tumble. laugh.gif


This post has been edited by cherroy: Aug 30 2018, 09:45 AM
cherroy
post Oct 9 2018, 10:26 AM

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QUOTE(markedestiny @ Oct 3 2018, 02:36 PM)
Let's see how much the market drops for S&P 500 since post-world war II. 

The last recession 2007 -  a whopping 57% drop.

Source: Moon Capital Management
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On average a drop of 20-30% during downturn is "normal", considered that the market has been going up almost non-drop for the last 10 years or so (for US market).

2007 is "whooping" event, that generally may only occur once of twice in one's investment life time.

Even with such history of "plunging", S&P still chunk out handsome gain over the long term, it just indicated long term investment works, provided one invested in right stocks and discipline throughout.

cherroy
post Nov 23 2018, 09:32 AM

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There are many individual stocks already crashed severely, typically O&G sector, a number of property stocks etc.
Easily plunged more than 20~50%.

Many property stocks are at bargain price, especially those without debt one, could easily a privatisation target.
There are 2 property stocks under privatisation proposal recently.
cherroy
post Jan 16 2019, 09:44 AM

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QUOTE(Hansel @ Jan 16 2019, 09:35 AM)
Looks like the investing world is starting to get smart - not good for people like us !!!!!!!!!!! sad.gif  sad.gif  mad.gif  mad.gif
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At the same times, it may mean, investors overlook the risk, aka complacency.
Having said that, to be fair, US stocks are not that expensive after last year end big decline, provided the economy situation doesn't turn sour too much.

Currently, US market is having mini bull rebounding, after the Dec rout.


cherroy
post Jan 18 2019, 11:01 AM

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If trade deal concluded, then DJ up another 2000 points and all time high again? bruce.gif
cherroy
post Mar 28 2019, 04:43 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Mar 28 2019, 03:13 PM)
Thanks.

AA
For the small caps, how did they cop in the last recession? Small drops? I thought small caps are volatile in winter season.

BB
Why bearish on oil? I am bearish on oil too. Just curious.

Thanks.
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Small/mid cap in property sector already dropped quite significantly, many already traded at significant discount to its NAV, if drop further may trigger privatisation interest particularly those without debt one. (already did, Daiman, SPB)

Big cap or small cap is not the key during recession, but level of debt and cashflow.
cherroy
post Mar 29 2019, 09:43 AM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Mar 28 2019, 06:30 PM)
» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

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EV is not the game changer for O&G, shale oil is.

EV won't replace conventional gasoline engine right now (at least within 5-10 years time) and diesel engine (for truck, EV won't able to do this for time being).
The demand for oil is still there.

The drop of oil price is because abundance supply particular due to surge in shale oil supply.

Those crushed O&G stocks generally have similarity between them
1) Highly geared
2) Unsustainable cashflow
3) Service or relied on contract job, whereby margin being squeezed.
4) Over-expansion during oil price boom time.

Those upstream and having own oil field one, generally still doing reasonably ok.

cherroy
post Mar 29 2019, 02:59 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Mar 29 2019, 11:54 AM)
Some years back on the EV impact on O & G industry discussion, a friend raised that petrol/diesel were not the main revenue earners. About 30% on the company I studied. Big, small, no impact?

My gut feel said to seriously study the impact as that is part of my retirement fund.

Last year, saw a TV report on the exponential growth in EV vehicle usage around the world in the coming 10 years. True or not remains to be seen.

A spin-off from this EV thing is the corresponding huge demand for lithium car batteries if EV takes hold. Cobalt, nickel etc will be very good investment should EV story hold true. Unfortunately, major EV players are already securing their holds on the main raw materials (eg China). But keeping my eyes open on ETF related to EV industry.

Cheerio.
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Until EV become price competitive, conventional fossil engine is here to stay.
Not to mention, EV has problem to replace diesel powerful engine.

EV is not just about EV alone, you need charging station, and time consuming to charge aka various condition or product environment to flourish.

Petrol engine, no petrol, jump pump in a min, you can travel again for next 300Km, EV simply doesn't has this conveniences.
Stuck in traffic jam for hours, then battery died down, need to tow away... laugh.gif

Unless we have breakthrough in battery technology, which has been reaching bottleneck stage since decade ago.
See, how we still need power bank, just for smart phone alone, despite various breakthrough in semi-conductor that consuming less and less voltage/current already.

Also, EV plastic components all made up from polymer, and polymer origin from fossil oil.

O&G is still a huge industry, just not as lucrative compared to years back, and oil is still plentiful around. The myth the world running out of oil that has been spreaded 10 to 20 years back has been debunked.

For retirement investment planning, it is all about diversification, it is a bit risky to bang on a few sector to look for return.
cherroy
post Apr 8 2019, 04:52 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Apr 8 2019, 08:48 AM)
Mind sharing the links? Thanks.

My layman's gut feel is a huge dip, mainly due to putting plasters here and there trying to cure a major illness. Plasters here = QE.

New strain of viruses = DT, BREXIT, NKorea, etc

Ha.
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NK is not an issue for global financial market. It is more about political instead of economy.
Brexit won't impact whole world economy, except Br and specific stocks related to BR.

The fear is with dovish Fed (so quick stopping the hike cycle), it may fuel another asset bubble (worldwide equities rising non-stop), and with still low US interest rate, it may not have enough "ammunition" to handle next bubble crisis.

Last time, 2008, Fed rate was 5% before crisis hit, then at least for 5% "ammunition"
Now, only 2.5% already halt the rate hike.
cherroy
post Apr 9 2019, 02:35 PM

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QUOTE(Krv23490 @ Apr 8 2019, 06:24 PM)
So if we are expecting rate cuts, bond funds will be a beneficiary right?
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Yes, bonds has been rallying since Fed signaled rate will hold this year.
Even MGS also rallying, many bond funds are performing quite well recently.


QUOTE(Hansel @ Apr 8 2019, 09:48 PM)
I would look at it like this : this time, the Feds are more attentive to world events, and more sensitive to whatever that is happening in the world, however big or small. Hence, quick actions have been put in place before it's too late. Yes - Feds holding rates also points to weaker economic growth today compared to earlier. But isn't it good that the Feds stops in time ?

In 2008, what happened back then was not something that the Feds could see coming. The subprime crisis happened overnight, and Bear Stearns was the first to start giving bad signals. That was a totally different scenario compared to what we have today. Of course, Feds had the 5% ammo back then - this 5% contributed to the crisis too, besides easy-lending practices and no control over loans back then.

NK contributes sentiment to the financial world - this has been proven many times.

Brexit contributes to problems in The Eurozone, and The Eurozone, as a big economic bloc, influences world financial mkts. This was proven back in 2016 when world mkts drop after the Referendum results, after that victory speech by Nigel (something),.... When the votes were being counted and as we see more and more voters leaning towards separation, world indices dropped lower and lower,...
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It is not about Fed can or can't see that trigger the 2008 crisis, it was prolonged low interest rate (Fed slow to hike rate during 2012-2017), that fuel the greediness of mortgages backed securities that triggered the 2008 crisis unfolding.

When interest rate is too low, it easily triggers asset bubbles, because money has nowhere to go and need to chase return, as well as prompt many risky carry trade.
Asset bubbles + lax in bank lending control + greediness -> 2008 crisis.

Recent some Sreit shoot to the roof just after Fed halt the rate hike cycle, is one of sign how low interest rate can prop up asset price.

cherroy
post Jul 11 2019, 04:42 PM

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QUOTE(Showtime747 @ Jul 10 2019, 09:55 AM)
Financial crisis / stock market correction used to be said happens every 10 years once. Happened in 1987 (October, close to 1988), 1998, 2008. Didn't happen in 2018 and it is now second half of 2019 already. Maybe because human beings has the ability to learn from past mistakes and therefore we are the only species with civilisation

I would say global banking health is at +5 now
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Actually we got crash in 2016~2017, (oil price) and many oil related stocks crashed massively and not recovering until now, and some went burst as well.
cherroy
post Jul 11 2019, 04:51 PM

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QUOTE(Yggdrasil @ Jul 10 2019, 01:17 PM)
Next economic crisis unlikely to be banks. Banks already learnt their lesson.
Last time anyone can simply get a loan. Now there is stringent background checks and improved accounting standards to provide better financial reporting.
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If we look at history, every crash always come in new "form", or in other word, always in new area.

1986 Market crash
1997 AFC
2000 Dotcom bubble
2008 Global financial crisis
2016 oil price crash.
cherroy
post Jul 16 2019, 09:27 AM

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QUOTE(GenY @ Jul 15 2019, 08:09 PM)
For many "investors" and even a famous old man, low PE is a must.

Funny thing is, my two best performing counters in Bursa this one month have high PEs.

Counter R, with PE of about 40, shot up > 50% 1-2 days after I bought it.

Counter P, with PE of about 25, have been unimpressive for 1-2 years. Suddenly, in 1 week, it nearly tripled in price. It's my second best performing counter ever, my top counter was a six bagger HK/China small cap.

To be honest, my positions in all 3 counters are small. And I have many disappointments as well. One can never be sure which one will pleasantly surprise or disappoint.
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PE is historical data, and with economy slowing down and specific sector facing headwind, PE is not a good indicator.

As stock market is forward looking mechanism, while PE is looking at the past issue.

In fact, sometimes low PE can be a value trap. As some companies may report one off big disposal gain for the past year, which may not be recurrence in the future.

cherroy
post Mar 14 2020, 05:44 PM

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Even the market crashing currently, many US stocks price, typically like Apple still way above its price 2 to 3 years ago when this topic started.

Apples was below 200 years back. Prior before current market crash, it went up until 3xx, now even with this round one of greatest market crashing, it is still at 277 yesterday.

So even we had crystal ball in 2018 as this topic started time, that knowing 2020 will have big crash, selling Apple shares at that time, seen not a right move as well.

So, this tells us, in order to make money in the stock market, choosing right stock to invest is the key, not timing the market.

Edited
Re-quote, what was posted by me back 2 years back, which indeed happening right now, despite with the crash.

QUOTE(cherroy @ Aug 23 2018, 11:38 AM)
Time the market is impossible task to do.
If market valuation indeed expensive, just trim down the holding.

Totally clearing up is not advisable (especially one is holding on good quality stock) unless one can hit the timing exactly.

What if clearing up, the market continue to go up 10~20% before the crash?
Eg.
A stock you hold now is 10.00, expect market crash, clear up.
But A still going up to 13.00

1-2 years later, market crash, A stock drop 20%, back to 10.00 level.
You buy back at 10.00, seems gain nothing in the process of 'guessing" the crash timing.

A good stock, even experiencing crash after crash, over the long time, it is still going up and way higher than before.

Having said that, the market is indeed experiencing one of longest bull run in the history due to unprecedented massive QE pumping.
*
This post has been edited by cherroy: Mar 14 2020, 05:46 PM
cherroy
post Mar 18 2020, 04:27 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Mar 18 2020, 08:46 AM)
Lockdown Day 1, good morning!

Good videos in there. Thanks.

Fed used up all the ammunition at the wrong time and at the wrong target? Wah.

Interesting concept of FUNDAMENTAL with VALUATION on top, and Fed in between and now the Fed layer is getting smaller.

I don't need to wait till the recession now. The impact now has already exceeded my expectation. As of yesterday, the price has dropped by 56%.

Satisfied with my decision and action. But feeling sad for the unemployed, part timers, struggling business owners, etc. with the growing negative impacts on their cash flow.

Cheerio.

P/S There was a big increase in DJI in the 30 mins before closing last week. Guess it is a common practice everywhere with x, y & z trying to save the index by last-minute buying. This amount of $ involved for DJI will be HUGE.
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The big swing last min could be short covering taking profit.

The market wild swing is compounded many programmed trading and sophisticated algorithm trading used by big investment firms.

May be it is time to soft ban short selling across the globe to instill confidence back.
The market is lack of confidence, panic and fear of unknown, so temporary eliminate short selling may be an option.

Some stocks are selling below its net cash position, some less than half of its asset value.

cherroy
post Mar 19 2020, 02:19 PM

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QUOTE(piggy2008 @ Mar 19 2020, 02:14 PM)
But 2020 GDP will fall according to the trend PLUS incoming recession? No?
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Near term, yes, GDP may fall in mid single digit.

But worldwide central bank and govs are eager to engage massive stimulus around, (like with the latest news US may give everyone USD1K to spend, which worth 1 trillion USD), which is huge, may prop up GDP when situation becomes stablise.
cherroy
post Mar 20 2020, 04:11 PM

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QUOTE(plumberly @ Mar 20 2020, 03:59 PM)
Looking for articles on economic impacts due to SARS and the road to recovery. Please share if you know of any. May not be SARS twin here, still like to learn and be better prepared. Thanks.
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Covid-19 impact is way way much larger than SARS,

During Sars, we don't have town MCO, or some country town lockdown, as well as total travel ban.

Look 1998 AFC, 2000 tech bubble, 2008 GFC, they come in with different impact and different shape.
Recovery pattern also different.

But among all, this round drop is the sharpest or quickest (within shortest time with 30%) I have ever seen. Most investors are caught by surprise and little time to react.
Most previous crisis, it took several months before bear starting to take control.

Now within 2 weeks to 3 weeks time, whole market turns upside down.

This post has been edited by cherroy: Mar 20 2020, 04:14 PM

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