Happy New Year 2021 to all folks on lowyat.net .....


Avanza 2007 Odo 315K km

Is the wheel alignment results good or bad ?

and Why ?

Database summary :
....................................................................................................................................................

BMW
a )F82/F83 2015-2020 BMW M4 Coupe 20 inch Wheel (Modified Specification);

Peugeot
a )Dongfeng Peugeot 1.6L, 2.0L ;

Toyota
a )Avanza F601/F602 (2003 - 2012) 1.3L 1.5L :
Ver 1.0
Camber -> Minimum -0° 15' , Maximum +1° 15' , Preferred +0° 30' ;
Caster - > Minimum +3° 35' , Maximum +5° 35' , Preferred +4° 35' ;
Toe - > Minimum -0° 05' , Maximum +0° 05' , Preferred 0° 00' .

Ver 2.0 (Post #66)

....................................................................................................................................................










Hope to gather alignment limits recommended by models of various vehicle manufacturers and user experience feedback and troubleshooting ........ along the way .

Note:This wheel alignment was done after completing replacement of parts like all 4 shock absorbers , lower arm assembly set,tie rod end set,stabilizer link set and anti-roll bar bush set from the Front and lateral control bar bush set from the Rear as detailed below .....


This post has been edited by zeng: Mar 7 2022, 10:27 PM

What is wheel alignment ?

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefo...l+alignment+%3F

...... and hope to gather articles and links related to wheel alignment in this one thread as sort of one-stop-centre for ease of searching for required alignment angles specifications and clarifying doubts and questions from users ..........

Database of wheel alignment Shops, good or bad I'm not sure.

SELANGOR

Balakong:.............. a )Ah Man Tyre Centre (ML) Sdn Bhd; (1)

Jalan Klang Lama:.. a) Kee Hin;

Jalan Loke Yew ..... a)M. B. Liew Tyres Sdn Bhd;

Kajang: ................ a) Ho Tang Kee;

Klang: ...................a) Tyreplus -SL Car Care, Klang

Puchong:................a)Ah Man Tyre Service Centre S/B (BK5);(1), (2);

Setapak:................a)Autovest Service Centre (Shell);(1);

USJ/Subang Jaya.... a) Kim Heng;

............................

JOHORE

Kempas JB ............ a) Jetsinn Tyre Auto Service Centre; (1);

................................

N SEMBILAN

Seremban: .............a) Speed City Tyre & Trading Sdn Bhd, Jln Tok Ungku, Seremban

Links

>Alignment - 3 types:-a ) 4-wheel Alignment;b ) Thrust Line/ Thrust Angle Alignment and;c ) Front Wheel Alignment
What Every Motorist Should Know About Wheel Alignment
by www.aa1car.com
>Conicity: Brand new tyre with Tyre Conicity defect
Diagnosing Tire Pull
by www.tirerack.com
>Over-steer and Under-steer problems and its adjustments
Aftermarket modifications and adjustments
by en.wikipedia.org(Automobile handling)
>"Pull"
>Wear, Heal and Toe Wear
by www.y-yokohama.com



Youtube
1 )Procedures And Steps To Perform A Wheel Alignment
by Michael Fleming
2a )Wheel Alignment Tutorial (Part 2) Toe-in ? or Toe-out ?
by YS Khong Driving
2b )Wheel Alignment Tutorial (Pt. 3) Camber Adjustment - Positive or Negative?
by YS Khong Driving
3 )Suspension System Functions & Components
by Kansow Vehicle Engineering
4 )Suspension Geometry - Part 1(Camber, Toe, Caster, KPI, Scrub Radius)
by XF Motorsports [Courtesy of dwRK]
5 )Physics of Racing
by Andre Marziali [Courtesy of dwRK]
6 )How to adjust toe in, toe out of rear tyres of BMW E90-E93
by Auto Repair Guys
7 )Car without rear shocks
by 1SECOND
8 )How Diferrent Types of Suspension System Works? Explained in Details
by The Engineers Post
9 ) How does the Steering Wheel automatically returns to its centre?
by Lesics

Parts
Hyundai, Tucson 2010 Front Suspension pictorials;
1 )Shims, Rear Camber
2 )Eccentric bolts, Rear Camber Arm and Rear Toe Arm BMW E90-E93

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 2 2023, 08:48 PM

This will explain most if not all

Thank you for rectifying , Zot .

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 1 2021, 05:31 PM

Bro zeng...... IMHO manufacturer's spec is the baseline setting for one's car, and it serves as a baseline for one to follow. I personally will not follow it that much.

All my cars deviate a bit from the manufacturer spec. If following these specs, my daily driven kancil, wira elantra etc handle like shit, tyres wear off very unevenly and extra road noise too.

Agree with your approach and line of thought that avoids treating OEM guidelines/recommendations like god , some of the times , vis-a-vis circumstances and/or personal preference/requirement .
I'm not shouting out loud as yet ,for now, in an outright manner about possibly 2 'potential' shortcomings in the alignment screenshot above , one about actual alignment angle result/reading and another one OEM specs/limits ?
This is so to prompt the readers' sharp and keen eyes to sense/detect the 2 'potential' shortcomings (in my personal view) .
For all we know, there could be some other deficiencies in the alignment screenshot , who knows ?

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 2 2021, 11:00 AM

Your camber is still ok eventhough the left is somehow a bit positive but no big issue because it's still very small.

Caster no measurements there.

Toe is perfect at 0.

6UEST , you're absolutely right in your assessment .

However, one of the two things I don't sense 'right' (or raising some of my doubt) was about achieved angle readings in Camber .

Yes LF camber positive 0°15' and RF negative 0°15'(at border of limits) are both complying with specs .

Besides , the Cross Camber (LF minus RF) of positive 0°30' also is complying with specs .

However , the LF positive Camber in combination with RF negative Camber may or may not promote pulling left .

Considering our road crown is higher on the RHS slanting downwards towards the LHS of the road , this may further promote pulling left , or it may not ?

True enough after about a week of driving with the alignment angles , the vehicle quite consistently is pulling left on straight highway driving .

Further , it is annoying to me that this alignment job was incomplete as pointed out by you whereby the Caster angle was not measured and displayed ......
which may or may not help to explain the pulling left .

Agree with you on toe readings , which are quite desirable .

For now, I'm a bit 'suspicious' on one aspect of the spec limits displayed though Toyota should have done extensive tests/research to come up with this limits .....

Procedures And Steps To Perform A Wheel Alignment
by Michael Fleming

Front Axle adjustment and 4-wheel Adjustment .
According to Ford Training Module : Sequence of angle adjustment is :
1 ) (Rear Axle) Camber ; >
2 ) (Rear Axle) Toe ; >
3 ) (Front Axle) Caster or Camber ; > ....... ( Question :Should Caster adjustment be given priority here? )
4 ) (Front Axle) Camber or Caster ,whichever one depending on (3) above ; >
5 ) (Front Axle)Toe . Done .


13:38

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 20 2021, 10:46 AM

nobody measures caster... it cannot be adjusted normally... it's only a problem if involved in a big accident

pulling left or right can be tyre related...I changed 4 new tyres, alignment done, but car pull to left...swap tyre left to right solved the problem

pulling one side can also be torque-steer problem...this affects both acceleration and to a degree deceleration

imho your alignment too neutral... easy to drift, not stable at high speed...ok for urban driving... the marginal non symmetric camber is not a problem

btw... didn't you post somewhere last time that you are not a fan of tyre alignment and rotation? anyways not important...

Yes, the positive camber is not ideal. To adjust back to negative you need to get the camber screw.

Caster is rarely measured coz anyway not adjustable unless you use coilovers with pillow ball top mounts.

Sorry Bro just to update here , before the current alignment job the Avanza already had the camber bolts on both Front sides installed . I only paid for labour only at RM30 , in Seremban though .

I suspect this set of camber bolt may have been installed 3.5 years ago when 2 front tyres were replaced new together with an alignment job then . Subsequent to that is the current alignment job we are deliberating today .

Agree with your position on positive Front camber as being not ideal , for on-road applications like my Avanza .

Here is some background and I would appreciate your patience :

1 )For the past one year or so , I have been feeling on cornering right at speed that the steering wheel was rather unsteady/unease/unstable on approaching highway toll booth on exits , not realising something maybe wrong with my (probably highly positive) Left Front camber etc ;

2 )Realising there were some minor heel and toe wear on both front tyres ,made a visit to my mechanic who recommends replacement of sets of Front shock absorbers/lower arms/absorber links/tie rod ends and anti-roll bar bushes and Rear absorber sets .
This 'repair' job makes taking right side cornering even worst than before.
Hence scheduling this alignment job .

3 )This current alignment result of Left Front camber of +ve 0° 15' is much better than before 'repair' on cornering into right side , although the steering wheel was still a bit unsteady/not firm at faster speed .

4 )However, the Right Front camber of -ve 0° 15' gave me very firm and steady steering (which I like it) on making cornering into left on high speed .......
hence my current rumblings on the 'less than ideal' alignment readings , despite within specs and of green colour .

5 )Of course pulling left on straight highway driving further compound my annoyance of less steady cornering into RHS.

Thanks I would do some read up on coilovers with pillow ball top mounts . Any or what difference it has with a camber plate ?

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 3 2021, 09:36 PM

If already got camber screw them just adjust it until not positive, no need pillow ball coil overs especially on Avanza. Camber plate only to set camber at a fix degree.

Yes @dwRK I used to consider myself as being not a fan of tyre alignment and rotation till todate .

Subsequent to my previous wheel alignment 3.5 years ago post front axle tyres replacements ,about a year later my mechanic did advise me to do another wheel alignment after changing some front suspension parts (not sure whether it is cheapo absorbers or absorber links etc ) .

However as typically , I did not follow through with the alignment advice as I felt vehicle handling/cornering was ok and fine .

This may help explain why about a year ago , I began feeling unsteady/unstable steering wheel during cornering into Right ...... probably caused by and related to out of spec alignment angles .

If not for the recent 'major' front suspension parts replacement and I was troubled by the real 'lousy' right turn cornering and pulling left , I wouldn't have visited this alignment shop .

As regards current alignment values as being too neutral .... easy to drift and unstable at high speed .......
I think you could be right about it including the marginal assymetric camber angles not being a problem .

Do you think an inappropriate or less than 'ideal' non-adjustable front caster angles could lead to my current 'complaints of annoyance' ??? .

I think you are right in suggesting the 3.5 year olds 'worn' front tyres could cause pulling to one side here ......

Unfortunately caster angles are not being checked and measured here , accepting the scenario that Caster angles on Avanza can't be adjusted .

On torque-steer / acceleration/deceleration , I would need to google to read up more about it and appreciate your highlighting of it .

Oh no ... the pulling left phenomenon that I tested occurs at straight ahead driving at a constant road speed of 80/90/110 km per hr , not really during acceleration/deceleration , if that matters .

Quantitatively , I would say my Avanza pulling left fully occupying/blocking neighbouring lane completely in about 6-8 seconds after hands off steering wheel whilst traveling at 90 km/hr .

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 4 2021, 11:12 AM

Zeng...... off topic abit but still related to suspension. How's does your new KYB Ultra compare to the stock absorbers that were changed out? Stiffer?

no worries mate... as long as we open to learning and get smarter...

don't worry about caster angle, by process of elimination...it wasn't a problem before ...and it won't change unless car got banged up... caster angles affects steering feel and how the car gets back to center... this is not your problem

since you done major repair, i'd assume its not a mechanical issue anymore with lower arm, etc...

too neutral alignment means... suka suka drift left...suka suka drift right.... your's is pulling left all the time... so for now don't worry about alignment yet...

so the common problems are...1) tyre related, new tyre or old tyres can both cause the symptom due to conicity. 2) steering related, can be leaky internal o-ring, clogged channel or worn gears, causing imbalance L-R force making car pull left. 3) brake drag.

torque steer can occur at constant speed...its just exaggerated during hard accelerations...

Oh yesss..... RS Ultra is a lot lot more stiffer than the cheapo units (brand , don't know) that was removed .
This Avanza is no longer the bouncy , harsh stiff like rock type suspension that I had come to accept for years .....
RS Ultra really drastically smoothened out the uncomfortable bouncing at fast ride over residential area road bumps/yellow paint linings near curve/traffic lights/junctions etc .
The ride now is more comfortable, stable and firm running over uneven road surface at speed ....
and gives a nice sense in driving experience , leading me to have higher expectations on cornering stability/steadiness in fast speed cornering ........
it is now a joy and nice feeling in taking fast corners , where -ve camber angle setup matters a lot .
This RS Ultra is good recommendation I picked from the Avanza car club on lowyat , and I strongly recommend it to all first gen Avanza owners here .
Not sure whether it works equally well in 2nd gen Avanzas or other vehicle models .

Note:My mechanic commented that RS Ultra diameters are much bigger/coarser than the out going units and he demonstrated to me its strong resistance of forceful push against absorber 'piston' vs the old units showing vast differences between them .



This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 4 2021, 01:58 PM

The OEM camber spec of Mininum is -ve 0° 15' , and its Maximum is +ve 1° 15' as per Post #1 .

Now the second 'potential' shortcomings I was suspicious about is the OEM preferred Camber angle of +ve 0° 30' ±0° 45' ....
where tops of tyre are tilted away from vehicle centreline when view from car front or rear .

This IMO , will result in far more unsteady/unstable steering wheel during (fast/hard) cornering into right or left hand sides . Of course it may be fine with slow cornering though .

With a lesser/smaller LF camber of +ve 0° 15' right now ,I can already feel or sense the lack of firmness of steering wheel movement which I felt uncomfortable with at fast cornering . I can't imagine how unsteady would be the steering wheel movement with OEM spec'ed camber of +ve 0° 30' in taking fast corners ?

Why would Toyota specify such 'big' +ve camber in 2007 Avanza 1.3 L ?
Is Avanza 1.5L or of different gen specify same 'big' +ve camber ?

Hope any readers here with other mini MPV/SUV of brands like Nissan, VW, BMW,Honda Toyota etc would upload their wheel alignment screenshots for comparison and further elaboration .

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 7 2021, 10:54 AM

we experienced petrolhead just worked with the alignment guys to set to whatever our fancy... no need rely on machine database

new tyres camber sometimes -1.5 to have some high g fun... old tyres -0.5 to even out wear

Not driving an Avanza, but rented 1 b4 in Langkawi As debcribed by you above, its suspensionsetup can be quite harsh when empty/1person. Much quite comfortable when fully loaded (was loaded with 3 fatsos +2 midgets)

I guess it was due the long-ish suspension travel of the front setup on the car, since this is supposed to be a people and/or goods mover.

As McPherson suspension swings up, you gain negative camber due to the geometry movement. Maybe Toyota wants to keep their reputation by limiting -ve camber gain and thus saving its users "unnecessary" tyre wear, when the car is moderately loaded (most probable engineer's goal).

In your case, maybe you were driving alone most of the time. So maybe dats why you feel the suspension setup is shitty.

Yes you're right that I typically drive the Avanza alone and max at 2 pax .

Most owners/drivers of first gen Avanza (2003 - 2011 , F601 F602) has complaints on its 'exceptionally' harsh and bouncy suspension system from factory . Users generally attribute the harsh/bouncy suspension to combo of stiffer spring/softer shock absorber from Factory .

Just prior to this alignment adjustment job , I followed Avanza car group recommendation of switching to stiffer shock absorber ( KYB RS Ultra) in both front and rear and realise that the previously accepted norms of harsh and bouncy suspension and its discomfort is no longer true , but greatly improved now .

From thence on , I tend to speed faster on good/bad pavement and harder cornering only to realise the relevance and importance of -ve camber which I did not much care about or bother about from previously harsh/stiff suspension from factory .

RS Ultra is real steady and smooth on straight ahead driving on highway currently am beginning to like/prefer/enjoy the RF -ve camber of -0°15' in slightly harder cornering and found LF +ve camber +0°15' a bit irritating at cornering into Right . Not sure if higher +ve camber in (Toyota) preferred +0°30' specs would help in steady and smooth suspension either in straight ahead highway driving and/or right/left cornering ? Who knows .

Improved suspension comfort with full load/weight ? I tend to agree with this approach as I'd found out with my Hilux previously .

At similar design load/weight , isn't a stiffer Ori Avanza spring meant to limit McPherson suspension spring travel and/or changes in alignment angles like say , camber ? IDK .

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 8 2021, 10:43 AM

Thanks .... a good ballpark range of camber angles to work with , I suppose .
In your experience , is -0.5° camber edge wear easily noticeable by eye sighting or it can only be felt by running hand fingers/palms over tyre surface to 'feel' the wear or no edge wear indication at all ?
A -1.5° camber would give visually noticeable wear indications I guess ...... what about -1° camber wear , can it be seen with naked eyes too ?

-0.5 is not really a lot, will take quite a bit of time to see uneven inner-outer wear, best is measure thread depth. just remember thread depth can be different for each of the longkang when new, so best keep a record if really serious

for the front, the kingpin angle changes camber angle as you corner, so if -0.5 matches your driving style, you will get even wear. it can wear more on the inside if your mileage is 99% straight line, or more outside if your journey has lots of cornering. there is no one size fits all... but -0.5 is good start and future can adjust from there

running hand around tyre is to check for wave pattern...this indicates absorber problem, nothing to do with alignment

This post has been edited by dwRK: Jan 9 2021, 04:07 PM

this was my front tyre... inner wear from -1.5 camber/toe in, outer wear from hard cornering... overall quite even wear as you can see from center treads

noobs might think this is under inflated tyre so the wear is on the edges... it's not...I pump it 36 psi, lol

this tyre done over 70k km, and rotated twice... my setting now quite neutral about -0.6 to get more center wear whilst waiting for new tyres launch this year...



This post has been edited by dwRK: Jan 9 2021, 03:44 PM

your car keep pulling left... what we also don't know is the rear tyre alignment ok or not? yes I know torsion beam nothing to adjust... but if you hit potholes it can lari cause your car to drift also

it won't affect turn left vs turn right steering feel... for that my wild guess is you're on old tyres that have developed strong conicity due to previous suspension problems and lack of rotation

Brilliant ........ a picture speaks a thousand words .

You gave me a superbly useful idea here in taking pictures periodically on tyre conditions with attached remarks (as I did with my engine oil blotter spot tests ) ..... as a way of observing and keeping track of developments surrounding alignment angles selection choices and and tyre wear trending .

The inner edge pattern has a marginally greater/higher wear rate than that of the outer edge . Granted your specific driving pattern and respective proportion of mileages on straight ahead vs cornering/curved roads , I would speculate this inner edge wear is solely attributed to the 'excessive' camber angle of -1.5° , assuming your toe-in has never gone into negative toe out during the 70K km usage AND underinflation has never occurred which I suppose is highly likely . Not sure if you would agree with .

On outer edge wear , I beg to differ from you and wish to argue that it is not contributed by hard cornering as you proposed but 'solely' caused by toe in over huge amount of straight ahead driving ? I am ignoring quantitative amount or causes of wear within region 5-10 mm from the outer edge sidewall .

dwRK, can you share the amount of toe in as 'installed' then ?

As regards pumped pressure of 36 psi , may I know what is the factory recommended psi for said vehicle ?

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 9 2021, 07:33 PM

toe is usually very small... around 0.3~1 mm... don't need much & I don't pay too much attention to it, just making sure its +ve or -ve as appropriate

my tyre wear actually suggests my -1.5 camber is not enough, should not be wearing the outside edges too much but I'm reluctant to go higher. fyi hard cornering wear both inner and outer edge...depending on inside/outside wheel... and rwd cars wear slightly different from fwd cars

my car spec is 34... I pump 35-36 for better handling because I have a soft sidewall tyre

This post has been edited by dwRK: Jan 10 2021, 07:28 AM

Wheel Alignment Tutorial (Pt. 3) Camber Adjustment - Positive or Negative?
By : YS Khong Driving
8.16 ......... For people who want the car to handle a bit better like driving fast .....wants negative camber .....

11.46 ........For road cars like Honda Civic ,Toyota Vios or Proton etc ..... you probably want to look at maybe -0.5° or -1.0° negative camber ....

20.03 ........negative camber is good for cornering but up to a point .
For normal people ...... don't think should go for more than -1.0°.....
or -1.5° for Bentong Gombak type of road if one is driving fast , otherwise -0.5° or -1.0° is good enough.....
For race track , may be run -2.5° or -3.0° ........

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 9 2021, 10:06 PM

Update :

Redo/readjust (foc) Front wheel alignment to :

Camber :
LF -0°20' (from +0°15') ;RF -0°15' (from -0°15') ;

Toes :
LF +0°07' (from 0°00') ; RF +0°05' (from 0°00') .

Tyre pressure : remains same at 40 psi all round .

(Note :Sorry, miss to take pictures on computer screen . The tyreman flips the screen too fast .)

Pulling left phenomenon still remains , but much improved and better than before .

Instead of swerving to fully occupying left lane in about 6-7 seconds after hands off steering wheel previously , it takes a longer time now at around 10-12 seconds at 90 km/hr ....
but it is still obvious .

But now unfortunately one new problem crops out . Previously steering wheel is straight when driving straight ahead , but now steering wheel is leaning to right when driving straight ahead .

Any comments , folks ?

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 12 2021, 01:55 PM

They didn't straighten/centre the steering perfectly before locking it for alignment.

After returning from test driving , they drove straight onto alignment machine to check and measure alignment angles .
No, they didn't lock the steering wheel during machine measurement and adjustment .

They then drove off the machine ramp without any adjustment works done on machine , thinking it was another test drive but after some 10 minutes or so only to find the car is in another corner of the workshop (which is out of sight) with LF wheel lifted off ground .

From there , the Avanza was driven onto machine ramp again for measurement of above angle numbers .Only LF camber was adjusted on machine ramp from -0°25' to current -0°20' arriving at above reported numbers , also without locking the steering wheel .
Note: Not sure whether toe was adjusted on the machine ramp at the same time ?

After second test drive back to workshop , with tyres on ground they did some 'adjustment or tightening(?)' over RF side , then call it good to go .

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 12 2021, 10:35 PM

Suspension System Functions & Components

by Kansow Vehicle Engineering

Yeah agree that the 0.3~1 mm toe is very negligible indeed .

This value may translate into 0.05-0.10° depending on tyre size .If it is a -ve toe out (instead of toe in) and in a RWD then it may have no role in your tyre outer edge wear above . In this scenario inadequate -ve camber of -1.5° would likely be the culprit for the outer edge wear .

Btw, is the drive a RWD or FWD ?

Yep agree that both inner and outer edge wear could happen to inside/outside wheels in a hard cornering indeed .

Hmm... -1.5° camber may be too negative a value for an Avanza that allows up to a 'minimum' of -0.25° (aka -0°15') . However ,I may consider more negative camber than spec should my tyre wear pattern 'allows' it , who knows .

At 36 psi for a spec'ed 34 psi application, it would likely rule out 'underinflation' issue in assessing your tyre wear pattern, I suppose .

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 20 2021, 09:13 PM

no need to help analyse my tire wear...no problem here, i just showing as example... 6uest took one look and say same type of wear as his rwd mark x

your average fwd cars don't need so much -ve camber because the kingpin and caster angles are not very high...all these work together and they are designed for city driving, not performance handling... -0.5° should be plenty, then readjust during next rotation...

your videos are a good start...

here watch these for more in-depth understanding

first of a series of 3 videos...


the dynamics of it...

Last time in uni drive myvi like lalamui sportscar even -1 camber also got makan tepi issue on the outer edge.. tyre shop ppl say i drove too aggressively

Didn't the tyre shop is valid for suggesting your driving style as such ?
..... although too positive a toe in angles may have influenced it as well ....., IMO .

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 25 2021, 03:12 PM

Technically they set -1; no issue. Just that i memang drive hard in corners i thinj needed -1.5

Thank you very much, dwRK ..



A very solid video meant for a pro like you , and a bit too taxing on my brain ......

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 29 2021, 10:41 AM

Wheel Alignment Tutorial (Part 2)
Toe-in ? or Toe-out ?
by YS Khong Driving

1. 1:20 Various tyre wear patterns ;
2. 5.00 As a general rule ,a Rear Wheel Drive RWD like Avanza, BMW, Mercedes or trucks would require a toe-in at Front wheels of about 0.5 - 1.0 mm on each side ;
3. 8:12 On Front Wheel Drive FWD like Lancers, Vios, City, VWs Vento/Golf, it generally requires a slight toe-out at Front wheels of say, not more than 1 mm per side like 0.6-0.7 mm ;
4. 11:47 Aggressive drivers of FWD cars should have more toe-outs at Front wheels ;
5. 12:26 Toe-out at Front wheels ,and toe-in at Rear wheels ....(for FWD ?) it is good for the car tracking straight ahead and it doesn't drift left and right whilst driving straight ahead ;
6. 13:30 On FWD cars like Proton Satrias, Peroduas, Vios with a 'possibly inappropriate, according to YS Khong'(my word) toe-in at Front wheels, what is going to happen to the cars ?
   ..... for an open differential car at high speed (of say, at 110 or 120 km/hr) the FWD car would be drifting left and right, and highly unstable ;
7. 14:53 FWD cars should have toe-out at Front wheels. It will be very stable on acceleration and effective in stopping during braking action ;
8. 15:15 Meanwhile, FWD cars should provide toe-in at Rear wheels, if it is adjustable, for more effective stopping (in shorter distance?) and remain steady during braking action ;
9. 16:38 If a FWD car toes-out (too much) at Rear wheels, during braking action the car may be skidding and becomes unstable .....
   Hence it is good for a FWD car to toe-in slightly at Rear wheels ,whilst maintaining a slight toe-out at Front wheels ;
10. 16:53 For RWD cars with slight toe-in at Front wheels ,the Rear wheels should also be toed-in slightly but less(er than a FWD) like 0.1-0.2 mm per side (or zero toes), for more effective/stable braking action;
11. 17:33 For RWD cars, one should toe-in at the Front wheels whilst the Rear wheels at zero toes or slightly toe-in ;
12. 17:40 For FWD cars, one should have toe-out at the Front wheels and toe-in at the Rear wheels ;
13. 17:46 The amount of toes should not be more than 1 mm on each wheel as a general rule, but it is safer to keep it to 0.6-0.8 mm per side ;
14. 18:02 For 4WD cars, always provide toe-out at the Front wheels and toe-in at the Rear wheels .

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 31 2021, 03:06 PM

very complex oh. i support zero alls

Source

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 7 2022, 12:52 PM

Heel and toe wear



Source

Any recommendations for good wheel alignment in Klang Valley? I'm really sensitive to what's going on at the wheel and steering.

Bezza 1.3
5 yrs old
Recently replace all suspension, lower arm, stabilizer link rod due to wear and tear

Have tried a few big name shops but still
- The steering cannot be straight, some of them get it almost right
- Currently the steering is ever so slightly left, when going straight above 60kmh
- Currently toe is 0.03 for the fronts
- The car seems to pull right ever so slightly when accelerating or braking
- The car seems to be easier to turn left than right
- The car not really responsive to turn in
- The machine also shows the front left and right camber is not the same but they dont seem to recommend camber screw adjustment eventhough i asked for opinion
- The shops i went to did not take into account caster measurement
- They also seem to avoid the question why is the thrust angle unable to be 0 and is it possible to be 0? (It's always somewhere 0.02-0.04)
- There is a red figure on one of the real wheel but i forgot what. Torsion beam i guess cannot adjust right?

Really not syok to drive

So far only Perodua PJ Sentral service center able to do a really perfect job. Planted feeling and the nose can change direction freely
Maybe they follow a checklist specific to the car idk. But due to my job i cant wait 9am to 2pm++ each time just to do alignment

Wow,very elaborate and sharp queries/questions on alignment performance which I defer to other sifus in this forum.

By not syok to drive, you mean whilst driving straight ahead, or on braking, or on acceleration, or turning to left or turning to right ?

Yeah, my understanding on rear torsion beam is there isn't any provision for adjusting both camber and toe angles at the Rear.

Any sifu has tried adjusting alignment angles on Rear torsion beam design with 'aftermarket' tricks by those pros?


This post has been edited by zeng: Apr 16 2021, 04:21 PM

-double post-

This post has been edited by zeng: Apr 16 2021, 04:21 PM

One of my car factory setting is asking for - 3 to - 1 mm toe. My regular tyre shop refuse to follow the spec whenever I ask. Lol.


Attached thumbnail(s)

According to YS Khong Driving at 13:30 and 14:53, Front Wheel Drive cars should have called for toe outs (negative toe).

As this Dongfeng Peugeot 1.6L and 2.0L cars alignment specificatons calls for toe out's (negative), can you establish these cars are both Front Wheel Drives and not Rear wheel drive, as per YS Khong Driving's?

By being of lesser toe out's as done by the tyre guys (towards neutral or toe in's) can you feel the supposed difference in turning Right/Left at tight corners as being less responsive or less light, if perceptible?

It's supposed advantage being less twitchy on highway straight ahead driving I suppose.

For the benefit of other readers, my 'translation' of the specs are as follows:

Front Axle:
Camber LHS -0.2(+0.6/-0.4)°
Camber RHS -0.2(+0.4/-0.6)°

SAI/IA* LHS -12.7(+0.4/-0.6)°
SAI/IA* RHS -12.7(+0.6/-0.4)°

Caster ---

Toes -2.5±1 mm


Rear Axle:
Camber -1.8±0.5 °

Toes 5.9±1 mm

This post has been edited by zeng: Apr 23 2021, 07:39 PM

Yes these cars are definitely front wheel drive.

Indeed I don't get the chance to try out the factory suggested toe value. My regular tyre shop refuse to follow because they claim I will need to get new tyre from them very soon.

Hi bro,

This Dongfeng Peugeot being a Front Wheel Drive has 'correctly' spec'ed a toe out for Front axle tyres in accordance with YS Khong Driving proposition. This imo is good practice.

Having said this, Dongfeng OEM has spelled out a toe out range from -3.5 mm to -1.0 mm (Correction: -1.5 mm). Contrast this with YS Khong Driving's proposed toe out of -0.6 mm or -0.7 mm or up to -1.0 mm of a typical Front Wheel Drive, I would personnally tag along with YS Khong's as being more appropriate imo.
Note: Your's proposed value of -1.0 mm toe out is reasonable and workable which imo your alignment guy should have adopted it.

Taking into consideration of YS Khong Driving's position, if it were me I would be agreeable with your alignment guy in 'shrinking' smaller OEM's toe outs angles to follow that of YS Khong Driving's toe out's of say -0.6 mm to -1.0 mm.

Your alignment guy may have a valid point in not complying with OEM's proposed/specified toe out values from -3.5 mm to -1.5 mm and I personnally concur with his saying "you will need to get new tyre from them very soon" may be valid afterall.

However, as of now you have not been able to spell out to us the exact values of toe out's/toe in's as provided by your alignment guy and I really hope he is kind of complying with YS Khong Driving's proposition in your context.

Edit:Do your previous worn out front tyres show higher wear rates at the inside edges of the tyres, if you can remember? Of course your driving style matters a lot.

This post has been edited by zeng: Apr 23 2021, 09:52 PM

Realising this Dongfeng Peugeot has a factory preferred RHS Front camber being more negative than that of LHS (i.e unbalanced Camber angles),
which may not suit our Malaysian road crowns as it possibly promotes cars veering left when driving straight ahead, among others ............

Do your car prone to veer left when new?

Wondering if other local Peugeots has similar 'unbalanced cambers' at Front axles from factory, and if so any veering left phenomenon among Peugeot owners?

Just curious.

This post has been edited by zeng: Apr 27 2021, 01:48 PM

Frankly speaking I can't really remember as the alignment seems fine all the while. It does not really pull to one side.

I believe a slight camber imbalance would not cause the car to pull. It's the tyre, bush and fittings that cause the pull.

I'm fact the outside seems to have slightly more wear than the inside.

Agree with you a slight camber imbalance may not cause a car pulling oneside.

In fact some cars do provide spec range of ±00°30' as acceptable difference between LF and RF camber angles.

Having said this, feedback from Peugeot thread does suggest pulling left was a problem for KL's Peugeots, but that was probably way back in early 2010's.

Could it be Peugeot Malaysia (or dealers) may have rectified this pulling left phenomenon in a recent year or two?

This post has been edited by zeng: Apr 30 2021, 08:35 PM

I asked about inner edge wear because of the huge amount of toe outs recommended by factory.
You seem to have no such huge toe out thing with more wear on outside edge.

Over-steer and Under-steer problems and its adjustments :



Source: Automobile handling, Wikipedia

This post has been edited by zeng: Oct 25 2021, 12:41 PM

In summary, make the axle that lose traction softer to increase grip/the axle that has too much grip stiffer to reduce grip.

i just leave it the shop they more expert do it everyday
but if they start to talk shit need to add chamber nut or what shit...i wud just walk off

One may be surprised that the use of camber/eccentric bolts in most modern vehicles is indeed genuine.



This post has been edited by zeng: Jun 3 2021, 02:08 PM

Interesting ....
that a brand new BMW 2020 M4 Sedan(?) Coupe at 64 miles (100 km or 64 miles) has
out-of-specification Toe and Camber alignment angles ............



Why and how could it be ?

Source

This post has been edited by zeng: Aug 7 2021, 10:17 AM

wow steering pun miss center

Concur with you the steering wheel is likely off-centre, possibly pointing right(?) if I may add.
IIRC, a thead respondent inferred this 64 mile M4 before current alignment could be pulling right during straight ahead driving.
However the owner was complaining about out-of-spec alignment in this new car and its non-adjustable Front camber unless parts are replaced.

This post has been edited by zeng: Jun 10 2021, 10:31 AM

Summary of alignment specifications for:

2015-2020 BMW F82/F83 M4 Coupe 20 inch Wheel (Modified Specification);

Front
Camber Minimum -2.00° Maximum -1.00° Preferred -1.50° Tolerance ±0.50° ;
Toes Minimum -0.02° Maximum +0.18° Preferred +0.08° Tolerance ±0.10° ;
TotToe Minimum -0.03° Maximum +0.37° Preferred +0.17° Tolerance ±0.20° ;
SteerA Minimum -0.05° Maximum +0.05° Preferred +0.00° Tolerance ±0.05° ;


Rear
Camber Minimum -2.00° Maximum -1.40° Preferred -1.70° Tolerance ±0.30° ;
Toes Minimum +0.01° Maximum +0.21° Preferred +0.11° Tolerance ±0.10° ;
TotToe Minimum +0.02° Maximum +0.42° Preferred +0.22° Tolerance ±0.20° ;
ThrustA Minimum -0.17° Maximum +0.17° Preferred +0.00° Tolerance ±0.17° ;

This post has been edited by zeng: Jun 19 2021, 12:19 PM

Hi,

Steps and interpretation of wheel alignment angles by a retired alignment business owner (Australia)

Go to Reply #6 of this thread ...



... on How to align a Mercedes Benz 280 SE W116 with Air Suspension.

It is nice and good he did measure the Rear camber and toe angles, but only adjusted Front Caster, camber and toe.

Question: Did Carl make a mistake in the final (Front) adjustment?

Note: 2-wheel front alignment vs thrust line alignment vs 4-wheel alignment.

This post has been edited by zeng: Jul 10 2021, 11:16 AM

Update, 6 months later.

By March 2021, I dropped Front tyres to 37 psi from 40 psi. Rear pressure remains the same at 40 psi. There is no perceptible improvement in vehicle drifting left problem (with both hands off ) and steering wheel is still pointing slightly (towards) right when driving straight ahead.

Front tyres were not swapped left right as a possible 'solution' till todate as suggested by some above, yet.

Note:In February 2021, on closer inspection outer edges of both front tyres had worn more than inner edges with RF outer edge slight more severe ..........I believe most likely this has been happening all along well before the Dec 2020 wheel alignment.

By July 2021 today, there is an improvement in steering wheel seems no longer pointing (towards) right like previously but pointing quite straight ahead.

Has conicity/wear pattern of front tyres improved substantially enough (post alignment) to make me feel better currently ?

However, vehicle drifting left problem (with hands off the steering wheel) remains the same.

Note: Someone(s) has/have suggested above this drifting left problem could be caused by 'unknown' Rear toes which was not 'measured or displayed' in December 2020 alignment readings and he/they could all be right afterall..........
hence the requirement for a more 'complete' Thrust Line Alignment (generally lacking in local alignment industry) instead of the incomplete Front End Alignment broadly adopted locally.

Of late I realise turning right seems to be harder than turning left in relative terms. It requires quite a bit of steering effort to do turning.

Not sure if this has anything to do with reduced Front pressures of 37 psi, or other unknown causes like too high a Front total toes of +12' left and right ?

This post has been edited by zeng: Jul 21 2021, 01:40 PM

Sharing another differrent alignment specs (from Version 1.0) for an Avanza F601 from an Indonesia blog :




Summary of F601 Ver 2.0 alignment specifications -

Front
Toes Minimum -00°12' Maximum +00°12' Preferred +00°00' Tolerance ±00°12' ;

Camber Minimum -01°15' Maximum +00°15' Preferred -00°30' Tolerance ±00°45' ;

Caster Minimum +03°34' Maximum +05°34' Preferred +04°34' Tolerance ±01°00' ;

SAI Minimum +11°25' Maximum +13°25' Preferred +12°25' Tolerance ±01°00' ;


Rear - N/A.



Note:
Previous Ver 1.0 specs Preferred Camber is +00°30' vs -00°30' here.

This post has been edited by zeng: Aug 2 2021, 11:53 AM

Hi guys,

wanna ask do you have any recommended trusted tyre shop to do balancing/alignment in Mahkota Cheras/C180 area without need of changing charmber?

My car is Proton Saga VVT version

Hi Bro,

Am I right to deduce Proton Saga VVT version stock does not come with Front adjustable camber bolts, anyone ?

If yes, then all alignment shops can't adjust and correct/rectify Saga VVT front camber angles (if and when they are out of factory specifications) until and unless an after-market Front eccentric bolts set are installed, on a typical Front MacPherson Strut suspension.

I installed after-market Front eccentric camber bolts on my 2007 Avanza (whose Front cambers are non-adjustable at stock) .

This eccentric camber bolts installation and its adjustment improves my general driving experience tremendously (yes, from a boxy Avanza) and better ensure longevity of tyre lifes imo.

Proper adjustment of camber angles (and toe angles for that matter) is definitely a plus, question being does your car need one at the moment .....
but a time will come in days to come unless one ceases driving a car.

First off, try have a look at this Ho Tang Kee from Kajang .

This shop was mentioned/recommended by a lowyat forum member here and see if it is of help to you. Do let us know in this thread whether they do computer 2D or 3D wheel alignment and its pricing/service/quality level, if you ever pay them a visit .

Alternatively nearer to Bandar Mahkota is this Ah Man Tyre Centre (ML) Sdn Bhd Balakong said to be opposite Jusco Balakong .

However another lowyat forum thread here suggests they were using 'manual' and non-computer method.
Do they use computer alignment today? IDK.
Do update us whether they have computer alignment todate and their pricing/service/quality levels if you happen to visit them.

In any computer alignment shop one is visiting, first make a request for a print-out for Before and After alignment settings (that includes Rear camber and toes), never mind it may not be adjustable stock and maybe take pictures of alignment settings (maybe with permission granted by shop) and upload the results for us to learn/troubleshoot or evaluate the quality and workmanshop/finishing of the shop in question as a reference for other readers here. Yes, I believe a complete alignment results print-out can help other readers in assessing/determining the 'standard' of the Shop.
Meanwhile this can help me in building up a data base on factory Preferred alignment angles (on Post #1) of our cars here and also increase or improve our knowledge base on anything Wheel Alignment which almost all car drivers 'suffer' from.

The sad truth about driver complaints across the world whether in Malaysia or overseas is majority of car owners, with valid basis seem to find wheel alignment jobs done on their respective cars and its 'workmanship and finishings' as generally 'lacking' , unsatisfactory and anger the owners often times, as I understood them from among the alignment threads I have read about thus far.

Edit: IIRC, there is a shop in Salak South that uses 'manual' method and a very famous alignment shop along Jalan Klang Lama that uses computer alignment method. I have to do some search, if there is a need.

This post has been edited by zeng: Oct 9 2021, 07:05 AM

It is Syarikat Kee Hin - Tyreplus along Jalan Klang Lama on your Left after passing by a BHP petrol station (PJ bound from KL city centre).

@ceo684 has good remarks/experience with Kee Hin's alignment results.

This post has been edited by zeng: Aug 21 2021, 11:50 AM

Any recommended tyre shop with no chamber bent scam?

Where are you located? No point people recommend to you someplace in Klang Valley when you are in Sabah, for example.

Sorry forgot to tell.

Subang Jaya

My Avanza Front camber bolts were supplied and installed by this Kim Heng Tyre Service SS14/1 some 6-8 years ago, no problem till todate and are still in use.

Did wheel alignment over there too, not aware of any dis-satisfaction with their service thus far.

@speedy3210 is probably well versed with some tyre shops in Subang Jaya/USJ too?

This post has been edited by zeng: Aug 25 2021, 02:49 PM

Kim Heng is actually relatively near to my home, but I actually like the job of my usual tyreman more. Doesn't matter it he is actually >30km away. Been to Kim Heng twice but somehow his service is not as satisfactory as my usual go-to. And all the jobs were on my daily workhorse wira.

As for Kee Hin, tried his service once when my usual go-to was ill due to cancer. Also OK like Kim Heng, but I think he is more reliant on the alignment rig.

As for my tyreman, I like his skill in reading my tyre wear and adjusted accordingly. Started going for his service in 2000, when I was looking for even tyre wear, and progressed to more corner stability from mid 2000s onward.

Hi bro, thank you for sharing your experience with Kim Heng (Subang Jaya) and Kee Hin (Jalan Klang Lama) for the benefit of the readers here.

It appears to me your usual go-to tyreman could well be a 'hard to find' knowledgeable alignment guy around in the market.

Besides adjusting alignment angles according to reading your tyre wear patterns, can he mods and makes alignment adjustment to Rear cambers and toes of a fixed live axle (like Avanza) and/or rear torsion beams (like prius) or could he recommends one who can undertake such mods (as Toyota factory does not provide for Rear camber/toes adjustment) ?

Mind sharing location of your usual go-to tyreman for the benefit of all, as I'm keen to check with him on the mods ?

This post has been edited by zeng: Aug 27 2021, 02:10 PM

I changed my tie rod end and rack end recently. Then I went for wheel alignment. Came out the wheel is straight but the steering is not. What seems to be the cause?

happen same when stop and moving rite.

Short answer: incorrect toe angles.CMIIMW.

Any computer print-out or phone camera picture on specific readings , including Rear alignment angles?
....... unlike alignment angle picture in Post #1 which is NOT complete,
without Rear alignment angle readings.


Mind sharing what car model is that?

I suppose your Front suspension is MacPherson type, just guessing.

What about rear suspension type?

Is it Independent suspension or non-Independent types?

If non-Independent, is it Rear live/dead/fixed axle type (like Avanza) or Rear Torsion beams (like -2015 Prius) or ...........???

2016-up Prius is NOT rear torsion beam type!

I know most owners do not know all the above details about their own cars...... and that's forgiven imo,
however at least provides Car models and Model Year..........
which would help (a lot of) other readers here to better understand your context and circumstances, and comment accordingly if need be.

Otherwise, most of us would be just blur blur......

This post has been edited by zeng: Aug 28 2021, 12:29 PM

Sorry no picture. It is a 2010 honda city with torsion beam rear suspension.

Can explain more on when stop and moving? Mu steering wheel senget after alignment. The shop have to manually adjust without alignment machinr to make the steering straight again.

All readings were in green and none in red colours?
Actually, being all green is NOT good enough.
Did any one of your Rear angle readings in red?
I ask because Factory most likely does not provide rear alignment angle adjustments for a Rear Torsion Beam design. After-market? Not sure.

This post has been edited by zeng: Aug 28 2021, 01:30 PM

You mean whilst driving straight ahead, I suppose?

Either way during testing do you:
a )let go steering wheel with both hands off OR,
b )either or both hand(s) has to 'hold tight' to the steering wheel?

Steering wheel off centre whilst driving straight ahead?

Pointing towards 11 o'clock (Left) or 1 o'clock direction (Right)?

This post has been edited by zeng: Aug 28 2021, 01:38 PM