When you buy and install brand new tyres on your car(s), beware of brand new tyres with Tyre Conicity defects leading to vehicle pull to one side, despite 'perfect' wheel alignment works being done.



Source:
Diagnosing Tire Pull
by www.tirerack.com

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 7 2022, 01:38 PM

Wow you both really like really hard pressures.

becos van uses tall side profile

Car without installing Rear Shock Absorber set - See how the Rear Suspension behaves!
21 s.
Have a laugh pl...



This post has been edited by zeng: Mar 7 2022, 11:28 AM

Hi sifus. Please help me out here 😞.
I drive a perodua myvi 2nd gen which has torsion beam at rear. Went to do alignment today and mechanic told me my rear toe in totalling both side to 1 degree. He offered 2 solutions.

1. Change the whole rear axle / torsion beam costing around RM650 Inc installation.

2. (For my understanding) Add shims / washer at 1 of the wheel bearing/ nut hole. To compensate the degree.

Note:
Car has not been in an accident , only minor rear bang/light collision middle not side.

Can any sifu give me some opinions, since toe in will degrade tyre faster right.

Huuh...... Rear Total Toes of 1 degree both sides combined.

Mind sharing the print out of the alignment read outs?

That 's going to eat up the rear tyres really really fast right?

How's your tyre life so far?

Do you experience rear axle instability on rough road surface, especially on turns/curves/cornering?

Yes, replacing the whole rear torsion beam is one option technically.

For RM650 it is probably a used second hand from the kedai potong/scrap yards??

If so the replacement might not be accurate also giving you another set of wrong alignment angles??

If it is new torsion beam from Perodua may be worth trying.

Shimming the rear torsion beam is another option which I personally prefer, problem is I have difficulty in finding a competent and reasonably-priced mechanic in Klang valley to do this kind of job on my Avanza.

Let us know if your mechanic is good and competent on shimming rear torsion beam delivering cun cun good alignment reports.

Here is a link on shimming of rear torsion beam axle on a 2012 Hyundai Elantra with reasonably good results.

https://www.hyundai-forums.com/threads/do-i...7/#post-1984049

This post has been edited by zeng: Mar 16 2022, 09:40 PM

dont see the total toe, see the toe at each side instead, for your case added shim or washer seems to be better choice unless your torsion beam damaged badly then only you change

or you can go to another workshop and have it check, if have you have 1 degree toe in you should experience understeer and excessive tyre wear on the outer thread of the tyres, or the rear of your car will push to one side while driving if the toe is imbalance

If you look through the link I provided 2 posts above on shimming of Rear Torsion Beam/Hub, total shim thickness required by @nightlord in order to shrink its Rear Total Toes to factory specifications would be about 0.40 -0.60 mm on one and/or both sides combined.

Unfortunately the shims or washers thickness I found online is in 1 mm, 2 mm and 3 mm size.......
which imo is not quite suitable for such a typical Rear Torsion Beam shimming job.

Is there metal shims in 0.10 mm or 0.20 mm thickness available in the market, online store or retail shops? Mind intro one or two such outlets?

Replacing with a used rear torsion beam might end up with a rear camber/toe also out of factory specs. IDK.

Replacing with a brand new rear torsion beam would be very pricy. Even then the resulting rear camber and toe might look 'bad' or worse still, also out of specs. So it is a big risk too.

@Nightlord, as suggested above by @amduser do you experience 'understeer', excessive tyre wear?

Rear axle push to left and/or right sides when driving over bumps and potholes?

Car drifts or pulls to one side on straight ahead driving when both hands temporarily off the steering wheel?

With a centred steering wheel the car does not travel straight but move to one side?

Turning left steering effort or smoothness is different from turning right as your steer?

This post has been edited by zeng: Mar 19 2022, 09:59 AM

you can find it online, it is called ring shim, 1mm above is common because of household usage generally require those thickness, there are special kind of ring shim that is made from spring steel and is used for absorber valving tuning

here you can see the size they used
https://www.teknikmotorsport.com/ring-shims/
https://restackor.com/sample-apps/stack-tun...ntals/ring-shim

for those uncommon size you might need to go to those suppliers that specialized in selling gasket and seals, they should have those specialized washer, but they might not willing to sell in small quantity though

here is some ultra thin one you can find from lazada
https://www.lazada.com.my/products/100pcs-s...3364916647.html?

Oh no Bro..... never thought about this option of Ring Shim. Thank you.

The search continues ..... with Ring Shims for Avanza Rear Live axle.....

This post has been edited by zeng: Mar 20 2022, 12:07 PM

Hello all sifus. Sorry for late reply.

I do notice excess wear on outer rear tyres. regarding about understeer, I don't notice it. But I do notice just a little bit of body vibration when getting up to highway speeds. But I already changed the tyres that day cause thread is up.

I went to do second alignment scan at another shop and it shows. Toe: RL0°11' RR0°40' I guess thats almost 1° on total right ? Since 60' is 1°

Heading to do 'shimjob' while replying this.

Thanks all sifus

Hi guys. Done the shim job. Foreman says usually won't tune it to absolute zero. Rear wheel will leave a small margin of toe in.

I can slightly feel that the deceleration rate when off throttle is reduced (able to maintain speed longer while cruising off throttle / less drag) don't know if it's a placebo effect or not.

Steering is more centered, heaviness of turning left/right feels more balance (previously heavier turning right)

Tiny vibration during acceleration has been reduced.

Will do a highway test to confirm testimony.

Hi, yes you are right in suggesting 60' is 1° .

With Rear Toes at +0°11' (at LR) and +0°40' (at RR) i.e Rear Total Toes is +0°51' .

As suggested by @amduser above:
I would be surprised if you do not have outside edge tyre wear as suggested.

The question is:
do you experience more outside wear on Right Rear tyre only,
or Left Rear tyre only,
or both rear tyres wear at the same rate?

I concur you should experience understeer phenomenon when pushing the car to the 'limit' during fast cornering/turning if you know what I mean.

You don't feel it that way. But that maybe you were not pushing hard enough? IDK.

The little bit of body vibration when getting up to highway speeds that you experienced is most probably caused by what @amduser says:

Ok, you have decided on doing a shimming job.

Care to enlighten us how long a time is the job?

Types of shims or washers used, material metal or plastic elastomers?

Thickness of shims used?

Only on one side or both sides of Rear?

How much is your wallet damage?

How many times does the shop dismount and remount the tyres onto the tyre rim hubs, as I read it could take a long time like 2 rounds or more in between setting up on alignment machine?

Would appreciate if you could upload the Before and After Alignment print out to share about the quality and finishing to the shimming job as well as the alignment job.

Do you mind sharing as I am very keen to know the name and location of the shop that do your shimming job for I have been researching/enquiring about it for my Avanza rear axle without success thus far, and also location of alignment shop if they are another different shop.........
assuming you are quite happy with their rear axle shimming and alignment workmanship and pricings.

This post has been edited by zeng: Mar 21 2022, 05:59 PM

Hi zeng, if I'm not mistaken:
Process was around 60-90minutes.
Done on both sides.
Per side is RM70 so damage is 140 in total for me.
Type, thickness, and how many times they repeat the process that I don't know cause I was at the waiting room. 😂 Since I trust them so much.

Shop is at JB Kempas. You can search for Jetsinn Tyre Auto Service Centre. You can find for Ah Bao 阿宝(60137615050). A few couple shops next to marrybrown.

P.s:
I cannot guarantee that they're expert in shim or washer jobs. Since this is my first time doing this adjustment aswell. But they are very loyal indeed. It's the only shop that fix my balancing issue after running 5-6 shops. They are actually TVC Toyota Vios Club members so I guess there are experienced in cambers, caster, toe adjustments. Very very Honest, price is very reasonable for their skillset. Went there the first time in 2019 never went to other place for servicing 😂

Just let them know I'm 8109 blue myvi if u're heading there.
I will be continuing to take more tests highspeed wise, just to make sure the integrity and safety.

Wow... 60-90 minutes to complete a shimming job on two rear hubs (connecting to torsion beam axle), for that is quite a fast job for maybe 1-2 rounds of tyres dismounting/mounting onto tyre rims imo.

So I suppose this Jetsinn shop is quite experienced and well-versed in shimming Myvi rear torsion beam jobs, how I wish I'm staying around JB to avail his service.

RM70 per side of rear axle shimming job seems to be very reasonable rate for their expertise/brain works, imho.

Yes, please share your feedback post alignment in weeks/months to come by pushing a bit hard on left/right turns at safe and reasonably high road speeds, on uneven pot holed road surfaces, bumps etc to check if the Myvi drifts/pulls to one side, steering wheel cocked to 11 or 1 o'clock position, driving stability and certainty etc.


Concur with the foreman's suggestion of having a small margin of rear toe in. But we won't know the actual selected rear toe in without an upload of its alignment readings.

It sounds interesting that post shimming/alignment works you could feel deceleration rate is reduced when off throttle ....
wonder how it works here....

Generally things have improved for you, that sounds good.

Note: This intro on Jetsinn shop is linked at Post #2 of this thread for general reference (Credit to @nightlordccc79).

This post has been edited by zeng: Mar 22 2022, 09:55 AM

Last week my Avanza Right Front side suspension kind of producing 'nget nget' noise when car going over bumps and is especially clear and 'loud' when turning left, sort of undetectable when turning right.

While checking the problem, the workshop demonstrated to me the Right Front rack end assembly is loosened by pushing and pulling hard Left - Right -Left on the Right Front rack end.



Left Front rack end assembly was tight, no problem.



Note: Both the front tie rod ends were replaced new last December 2020 i.e some 15 months ago.

My question is: with a loosened Right Front rack end assembly (visually moves by about 1 mm or so), somehow my steering wheel cannot feel or detect a loosened tie rod end/rack end assy during normal straight ahead driving or turning left/right?

Car seems normal when tracking fast on highway as well as slow or fast turning or cornering in Taman or inter town curved roads.

Rear set of XM2 tyres (1315 and 1215 manufacturing dates) have a residual tread depth of about 2.0 - 2.5 mm with usage of about 110-115k km. To be replaced tomorrow at a good price of RM230 each.

Note: Front set of tyres have about 3.0 - 3.5 mm tread depth after 86k km usage.

Update:

The 2 old tyres were never rotated but stay at the same rear corners throughout its life of 110-115K km.

Both exhibit even wear (between inside and outside edges) with (mild uneven) heel-toe wear around their circumferences, inside and outside.

Prior to free wheel alignment check, the alignment technician test drove the Avanza and found alignment ok. He too couldn't sense or detect the loosened RHS Front rack end assembly (which I didn't disclose to him).

I am wondering why the Front Left ride height is registered lower by 13 mm at 808 mm compared to Front Right of 821 mm?





Why would current Front cambers (after about 15 months or 25K kms travel) of Left -0°42' (Previous -0°15') and Right -0°49' (Previous -0°15') have such a huge difference by up to negative -61' combined?

The change in Front toes could probably be explained by change in Total Front Cambers during the 15 months, I supposed.

For the purpose of summary of alignment readings:
Front Cambers are -0°42' (Left) and -0°49' (Right) with Front Total Cambers of -1°31';

Front Toes are -0°01' toe-out (Left) and +0°03' toe-in (Right) with Front Total Toes of +0°02';

Rear Cambers are -0°10' (Left) and -0°03' (Right) with Rear Total Cambers of -0°13'; and,

Rear Toes are -0°09' toe-out (Left) and +0°03' toe-in (Right) with Rear Total Toes of -0°06' .

Previous rear alignment angle readings were unknown.

This post has been edited by zeng: Apr 20 2022, 09:11 PM

there is no problem with your camber, but your toe is not aligned and balanced, sometime worn out bushing/rubber over time will affect the alignment, loose nut too will affect alignment, any weight added or taken out from the car will affect the alignment, but as long as your car still drive in a straight line and no issue with tyre wear then you're fine

camber cant be changed, there is no point to worry about it especially when it is still less than -0.5 per side

never look at total toe/camber, only look at per side
never look at total toe/camber, only look at per side
never look at total toe/camber, only look at per side

Thanks.

You have a valid point is suggesting there is no problem with my cambers, where being a live rear axle design the Rear cambers are non-adjustable without some kind of mods like shimming rear axle/hubs.

Besides, I had a known (to me) loosened free play at my Right front rack end assembly reported earlier on and I won't get to enjoy this free alignment checking but to pay up RM30 for alignment adjustment if I wish front suspension angles adjusted or altered at the time
..... which doesn't make sense for the loosened suspension parts at the moment.

However, since 15 months ago (of about 25K-27K kms) my Avanza has been drifting/veering slightly to the Left whilst driving straight ahead on straight roads/hiways and it has been capable of occupying the whole of left hand side lane in about 7-9 seconds with both hands temporarily off the steering wheel.
I'm bearing with this slight irritants/nuisance for now.

This irritant is, imho partly caused by the front and rear cambers namely:
Front Cambers -0°42'(Left) and -0°49'(Right); and
Rear Cambers -0°10'(Left) and -0°03'(Right).

Note:The front and rear toes seem to incline to pull the vehicle towards the Right imo but it is somehow being neutralized and overcome by the Left leaning cambers.

Correcting/adjusting the front cambers may give me a chance of getting the vehicle tracking straighter, if not rock solid straight, I believe.

Yes, cambers and toes in wheel alignment speak are normally look at or assessed on the per side (Left or Right) basis. Imho, this approach is premised upon and based on the ideal conditions that Left/Right cambers or toes on the same (Front or Rear) axle are always exactly equal at the same value whereby the Cross cambers and Cross toes (i.e left camber/toe Minus right camber/toe) are always Zero in an ideal world.

But alas, the real world is always not ideal whereby Left side cambers and toes are NOT exactly equal and same as the Right side cambers or toes on the same axle, all the more so with non-adjustable Rear Torsion Beam and current Rear solid live axles.

In the super majority of Asian cars and some Continental cars (including that of segments C and D cars) the stock original front strut system does not have provision for camber adjustment too (Edit: Strut bolts at stock original condition), i.e not ideal.

Hence I prefer to read suspension alignment angles in the perspective of Front/Rear Total cambers/toes.

Equally important is Cross cambers and Cross toes which is typically not exactly Zero in real world, but that is another different topic for another day.

For example referring to my Avanza's current suspension angles I intend to increase my Front Total Toes of +0°02' to say a range from +0°04' to +0°08' to overcome current driving experience of wobbling/loose/unsteady steering wheel movement on tekan-minyak acceleration in a curve or corner.
Exactly what Front camber/toe angles to adopt shall be influenced by the prevailing Rear cambers/toes angles at point of alignment adjustment.

Similarly one way to counter the Avanza propensity to oversteer on cornering experienced currently is to make/adjust my Rear Total cambers of -0°13' to be more negative like -0°30' or -1°00'.
Meanwhile, current Rear Total Toes of -0°06' is real real bad for oversteer phenomenon.

I found the road to modding Avanza rear live axle in Klang Valley for improved Rear suspension angles is slow, difficult and rather frustrating. Having said that , there is a far away (300+ km) JB alignment shop recommended above by @nightlordccc79 keeps the weak flame and hope alive.

This post has been edited by zeng: Apr 16 2022, 12:19 PM

i dont know if you check all your bush and joints, worn out bushing will progressively make your alignment worst even though the mechanic adjust nicely on the machine, the moment you go back home the alignment can be screwed up by the worn out bushing or loose nuts

non adjustable camber on most car is a good thing, if the camber out of aligned that's mean you have a bushing problem, suspension problem or a loose parts somewhere, because camber is non-adjustable so there is one less thing to worry about, so if my car has a drift problem when driving straight or vibration/loose steering, i will jack up the car, take out the wheel to inspect for worn out/loose parts rather than going to have my alignment done

if you think your total toe/camber is that significant, mine is running at a toe of -0.2 at front, 0.1 at rear, total camber -3 front and -2 rear, while still keep the thrust angle at 0, you can have right toe at 0 and left toe at -0.1 you still get total toe of -0.1 while what you should aim for is -0.05 each side