Suspension System Functions & Components

by Kansow Vehicle Engineering

Yeah agree that the 0.3~1 mm toe is very negligible indeed .

This value may translate into 0.05-0.10° depending on tyre size .If it is a -ve toe out (instead of toe in) and in a RWD then it may have no role in your tyre outer edge wear above . In this scenario inadequate -ve camber of -1.5° would likely be the culprit for the outer edge wear .

Btw, is the drive a RWD or FWD ?

Yep agree that both inner and outer edge wear could happen to inside/outside wheels in a hard cornering indeed .

Hmm... -1.5° camber may be too negative a value for an Avanza that allows up to a 'minimum' of -0.25° (aka -0°15') . However ,I may consider more negative camber than spec should my tyre wear pattern 'allows' it , who knows .

At 36 psi for a spec'ed 34 psi application, it would likely rule out 'underinflation' issue in assessing your tyre wear pattern, I suppose .

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 20 2021, 09:13 PM

no need to help analyse my tire wear...no problem here, i just showing as example... 6uest took one look and say same type of wear as his rwd mark x

your average fwd cars don't need so much -ve camber because the kingpin and caster angles are not very high...all these work together and they are designed for city driving, not performance handling... -0.5° should be plenty, then readjust during next rotation...

your videos are a good start...

here watch these for more in-depth understanding

first of a series of 3 videos...


the dynamics of it...

Last time in uni drive myvi like lalamui sportscar even -1 camber also got makan tepi issue on the outer edge.. tyre shop ppl say i drove too aggressively

Didn't the tyre shop is valid for suggesting your driving style as such ?
..... although too positive a toe in angles may have influenced it as well ....., IMO .

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 25 2021, 03:12 PM

Technically they set -1; no issue. Just that i memang drive hard in corners i thinj needed -1.5

Thank you very much, dwRK ..



A very solid video meant for a pro like you , and a bit too taxing on my brain ......

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 29 2021, 10:41 AM

Wheel Alignment Tutorial (Part 2)
Toe-in ? or Toe-out ?
by YS Khong Driving

1. 1:20 Various tyre wear patterns ;
2. 5.00 As a general rule ,a Rear Wheel Drive RWD like Avanza, BMW, Mercedes or trucks would require a toe-in at Front wheels of about 0.5 - 1.0 mm on each side ;
3. 8:12 On Front Wheel Drive FWD like Lancers, Vios, City, VWs Vento/Golf, it generally requires a slight toe-out at Front wheels of say, not more than 1 mm per side like 0.6-0.7 mm ;
4. 11:47 Aggressive drivers of FWD cars should have more toe-outs at Front wheels ;
5. 12:26 Toe-out at Front wheels ,and toe-in at Rear wheels ....(for FWD ?) it is good for the car tracking straight ahead and it doesn't drift left and right whilst driving straight ahead ;
6. 13:30 On FWD cars like Proton Satrias, Peroduas, Vios with a 'possibly inappropriate, according to YS Khong'(my word) toe-in at Front wheels, what is going to happen to the cars ?
   ..... for an open differential car at high speed (of say, at 110 or 120 km/hr) the FWD car would be drifting left and right, and highly unstable ;
7. 14:53 FWD cars should have toe-out at Front wheels. It will be very stable on acceleration and effective in stopping during braking action ;
8. 15:15 Meanwhile, FWD cars should provide toe-in at Rear wheels, if it is adjustable, for more effective stopping (in shorter distance?) and remain steady during braking action ;
9. 16:38 If a FWD car toes-out (too much) at Rear wheels, during braking action the car may be skidding and becomes unstable .....
   Hence it is good for a FWD car to toe-in slightly at Rear wheels ,whilst maintaining a slight toe-out at Front wheels ;
10. 16:53 For RWD cars with slight toe-in at Front wheels ,the Rear wheels should also be toed-in slightly but less(er than a FWD) like 0.1-0.2 mm per side (or zero toes), for more effective/stable braking action;
11. 17:33 For RWD cars, one should toe-in at the Front wheels whilst the Rear wheels at zero toes or slightly toe-in ;
12. 17:40 For FWD cars, one should have toe-out at the Front wheels and toe-in at the Rear wheels ;
13. 17:46 The amount of toes should not be more than 1 mm on each wheel as a general rule, but it is safer to keep it to 0.6-0.8 mm per side ;
14. 18:02 For 4WD cars, always provide toe-out at the Front wheels and toe-in at the Rear wheels .

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 31 2021, 03:06 PM

very complex oh. i support zero alls

Source

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 7 2022, 12:52 PM

Heel and toe wear



Source

Any recommendations for good wheel alignment in Klang Valley? I'm really sensitive to what's going on at the wheel and steering.

Bezza 1.3
5 yrs old
Recently replace all suspension, lower arm, stabilizer link rod due to wear and tear

Have tried a few big name shops but still
- The steering cannot be straight, some of them get it almost right
- Currently the steering is ever so slightly left, when going straight above 60kmh
- Currently toe is 0.03 for the fronts
- The car seems to pull right ever so slightly when accelerating or braking
- The car seems to be easier to turn left than right
- The car not really responsive to turn in
- The machine also shows the front left and right camber is not the same but they dont seem to recommend camber screw adjustment eventhough i asked for opinion
- The shops i went to did not take into account caster measurement
- They also seem to avoid the question why is the thrust angle unable to be 0 and is it possible to be 0? (It's always somewhere 0.02-0.04)
- There is a red figure on one of the real wheel but i forgot what. Torsion beam i guess cannot adjust right?

Really not syok to drive

So far only Perodua PJ Sentral service center able to do a really perfect job. Planted feeling and the nose can change direction freely
Maybe they follow a checklist specific to the car idk. But due to my job i cant wait 9am to 2pm++ each time just to do alignment

Wow,very elaborate and sharp queries/questions on alignment performance which I defer to other sifus in this forum.

By not syok to drive, you mean whilst driving straight ahead, or on braking, or on acceleration, or turning to left or turning to right ?

Yeah, my understanding on rear torsion beam is there isn't any provision for adjusting both camber and toe angles at the Rear.

Any sifu has tried adjusting alignment angles on Rear torsion beam design with 'aftermarket' tricks by those pros?


This post has been edited by zeng: Apr 16 2021, 04:21 PM

-double post-

This post has been edited by zeng: Apr 16 2021, 04:21 PM

One of my car factory setting is asking for - 3 to - 1 mm toe. My regular tyre shop refuse to follow the spec whenever I ask. Lol.


Attached thumbnail(s)

According to YS Khong Driving at 13:30 and 14:53, Front Wheel Drive cars should have called for toe outs (negative toe).

As this Dongfeng Peugeot 1.6L and 2.0L cars alignment specificatons calls for toe out's (negative), can you establish these cars are both Front Wheel Drives and not Rear wheel drive, as per YS Khong Driving's?

By being of lesser toe out's as done by the tyre guys (towards neutral or toe in's) can you feel the supposed difference in turning Right/Left at tight corners as being less responsive or less light, if perceptible?

It's supposed advantage being less twitchy on highway straight ahead driving I suppose.

For the benefit of other readers, my 'translation' of the specs are as follows:

Front Axle:
Camber LHS -0.2(+0.6/-0.4)°
Camber RHS -0.2(+0.4/-0.6)°

SAI/IA* LHS -12.7(+0.4/-0.6)°
SAI/IA* RHS -12.7(+0.6/-0.4)°

Caster ---

Toes -2.5±1 mm


Rear Axle:
Camber -1.8±0.5 °

Toes 5.9±1 mm

This post has been edited by zeng: Apr 23 2021, 07:39 PM

Yes these cars are definitely front wheel drive.

Indeed I don't get the chance to try out the factory suggested toe value. My regular tyre shop refuse to follow because they claim I will need to get new tyre from them very soon.

Hi bro,

This Dongfeng Peugeot being a Front Wheel Drive has 'correctly' spec'ed a toe out for Front axle tyres in accordance with YS Khong Driving proposition. This imo is good practice.

Having said this, Dongfeng OEM has spelled out a toe out range from -3.5 mm to -1.0 mm (Correction: -1.5 mm). Contrast this with YS Khong Driving's proposed toe out of -0.6 mm or -0.7 mm or up to -1.0 mm of a typical Front Wheel Drive, I would personnally tag along with YS Khong's as being more appropriate imo.
Note: Your's proposed value of -1.0 mm toe out is reasonable and workable which imo your alignment guy should have adopted it.

Taking into consideration of YS Khong Driving's position, if it were me I would be agreeable with your alignment guy in 'shrinking' smaller OEM's toe outs angles to follow that of YS Khong Driving's toe out's of say -0.6 mm to -1.0 mm.

Your alignment guy may have a valid point in not complying with OEM's proposed/specified toe out values from -3.5 mm to -1.5 mm and I personnally concur with his saying "you will need to get new tyre from them very soon" may be valid afterall.

However, as of now you have not been able to spell out to us the exact values of toe out's/toe in's as provided by your alignment guy and I really hope he is kind of complying with YS Khong Driving's proposition in your context.

Edit:Do your previous worn out front tyres show higher wear rates at the inside edges of the tyres, if you can remember? Of course your driving style matters a lot.

This post has been edited by zeng: Apr 23 2021, 09:52 PM

Realising this Dongfeng Peugeot has a factory preferred RHS Front camber being more negative than that of LHS (i.e unbalanced Camber angles),
which may not suit our Malaysian road crowns as it possibly promotes cars veering left when driving straight ahead, among others ............

Do your car prone to veer left when new?

Wondering if other local Peugeots has similar 'unbalanced cambers' at Front axles from factory, and if so any veering left phenomenon among Peugeot owners?

Just curious.

This post has been edited by zeng: Apr 27 2021, 01:48 PM