Happy New Year 2021 to all folks on lowyat.net .....


Avanza 2007 Odo 315K km

Is the wheel alignment results good or bad ?

and Why ?

Database summary :
....................................................................................................................................................

BMW
a )F82/F83 2015-2020 BMW M4 Coupe 20 inch Wheel (Modified Specification);

Peugeot
a )Dongfeng Peugeot 1.6L, 2.0L ;

Toyota
a )Avanza F601/F602 (2003 - 2012) 1.3L 1.5L :
Ver 1.0
Camber -> Minimum -0° 15' , Maximum +1° 15' , Preferred +0° 30' ;
Caster - > Minimum +3° 35' , Maximum +5° 35' , Preferred +4° 35' ;
Toe - > Minimum -0° 05' , Maximum +0° 05' , Preferred 0° 00' .

Ver 2.0 (Post #66)

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Hope to gather alignment limits recommended by models of various vehicle manufacturers and user experience feedback and troubleshooting ........ along the way .

Note:This wheel alignment was done after completing replacement of parts like all 4 shock absorbers , lower arm assembly set,tie rod end set,stabilizer link set and anti-roll bar bush set from the Front and lateral control bar bush set from the Rear as detailed below .....


This post has been edited by zeng: Mar 7 2022, 10:27 PM

What is wheel alignment ?

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefo...l+alignment+%3F

...... and hope to gather articles and links related to wheel alignment in this one thread as sort of one-stop-centre for ease of searching for required alignment angles specifications and clarifying doubts and questions from users ..........

Database of wheel alignment Shops, good or bad I'm not sure.

SELANGOR

Balakong:.............. a )Ah Man Tyre Centre (ML) Sdn Bhd; (1)

Jalan Klang Lama:.. a) Kee Hin;

Jalan Loke Yew ..... a)M. B. Liew Tyres Sdn Bhd;

Kajang: ................ a) Ho Tang Kee;

Klang: ...................a) Tyreplus -SL Car Care, Klang

Puchong:................a)Ah Man Tyre Service Centre S/B (BK5);(1), (2);

Setapak:................a)Autovest Service Centre (Shell);(1);

USJ/Subang Jaya.... a) Kim Heng;

............................

JOHORE

Kempas JB ............ a) Jetsinn Tyre Auto Service Centre; (1);

................................

N SEMBILAN

Seremban: .............a) Speed City Tyre & Trading Sdn Bhd, Jln Tok Ungku, Seremban

Links

>Alignment - 3 types:-a ) 4-wheel Alignment;b ) Thrust Line/ Thrust Angle Alignment and;c ) Front Wheel Alignment
What Every Motorist Should Know About Wheel Alignment
by www.aa1car.com
>Conicity: Brand new tyre with Tyre Conicity defect
Diagnosing Tire Pull
by www.tirerack.com
>Over-steer and Under-steer problems and its adjustments
Aftermarket modifications and adjustments
by en.wikipedia.org(Automobile handling)
>"Pull"
>Wear, Heal and Toe Wear
by www.y-yokohama.com



Youtube
1 )Procedures And Steps To Perform A Wheel Alignment
by Michael Fleming
2a )Wheel Alignment Tutorial (Part 2) Toe-in ? or Toe-out ?
by YS Khong Driving
2b )Wheel Alignment Tutorial (Pt. 3) Camber Adjustment - Positive or Negative?
by YS Khong Driving
3 )Suspension System Functions & Components
by Kansow Vehicle Engineering
4 )Suspension Geometry - Part 1(Camber, Toe, Caster, KPI, Scrub Radius)
by XF Motorsports [Courtesy of dwRK]
5 )Physics of Racing
by Andre Marziali [Courtesy of dwRK]
6 )How to adjust toe in, toe out of rear tyres of BMW E90-E93
by Auto Repair Guys
7 )Car without rear shocks
by 1SECOND
8 )How Diferrent Types of Suspension System Works? Explained in Details
by The Engineers Post
9 ) How does the Steering Wheel automatically returns to its centre?
by Lesics

Parts
Hyundai, Tucson 2010 Front Suspension pictorials;
1 )Shims, Rear Camber
2 )Eccentric bolts, Rear Camber Arm and Rear Toe Arm BMW E90-E93

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 2 2023, 08:48 PM

Thank you for rectifying , Zot .

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 1 2021, 05:31 PM

Agree with your approach and line of thought that avoids treating OEM guidelines/recommendations like god , some of the times , vis-a-vis circumstances and/or personal preference/requirement .
I'm not shouting out loud as yet ,for now, in an outright manner about possibly 2 'potential' shortcomings in the alignment screenshot above , one about actual alignment angle result/reading and another one OEM specs/limits ?
This is so to prompt the readers' sharp and keen eyes to sense/detect the 2 'potential' shortcomings (in my personal view) .
For all we know, there could be some other deficiencies in the alignment screenshot , who knows ?

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 2 2021, 11:00 AM

6UEST , you're absolutely right in your assessment .

However, one of the two things I don't sense 'right' (or raising some of my doubt) was about achieved angle readings in Camber .

Yes LF camber positive 0°15' and RF negative 0°15'(at border of limits) are both complying with specs .

Besides , the Cross Camber (LF minus RF) of positive 0°30' also is complying with specs .

However , the LF positive Camber in combination with RF negative Camber may or may not promote pulling left .

Considering our road crown is higher on the RHS slanting downwards towards the LHS of the road , this may further promote pulling left , or it may not ?

True enough after about a week of driving with the alignment angles , the vehicle quite consistently is pulling left on straight highway driving .

Further , it is annoying to me that this alignment job was incomplete as pointed out by you whereby the Caster angle was not measured and displayed ......
which may or may not help to explain the pulling left .

Agree with you on toe readings , which are quite desirable .

For now, I'm a bit 'suspicious' on one aspect of the spec limits displayed though Toyota should have done extensive tests/research to come up with this limits .....

Procedures And Steps To Perform A Wheel Alignment
by Michael Fleming

Front Axle adjustment and 4-wheel Adjustment .
According to Ford Training Module : Sequence of angle adjustment is :
1 ) (Rear Axle) Camber ; >
2 ) (Rear Axle) Toe ; >
3 ) (Front Axle) Caster or Camber ; > ....... ( Question :Should Caster adjustment be given priority here? )
4 ) (Front Axle) Camber or Caster ,whichever one depending on (3) above ; >
5 ) (Front Axle)Toe . Done .


13:38

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 20 2021, 10:46 AM

Sorry Bro just to update here , before the current alignment job the Avanza already had the camber bolts on both Front sides installed . I only paid for labour only at RM30 , in Seremban though .

I suspect this set of camber bolt may have been installed 3.5 years ago when 2 front tyres were replaced new together with an alignment job then . Subsequent to that is the current alignment job we are deliberating today .

Agree with your position on positive Front camber as being not ideal , for on-road applications like my Avanza .

Here is some background and I would appreciate your patience :

1 )For the past one year or so , I have been feeling on cornering right at speed that the steering wheel was rather unsteady/unease/unstable on approaching highway toll booth on exits , not realising something maybe wrong with my (probably highly positive) Left Front camber etc ;

2 )Realising there were some minor heel and toe wear on both front tyres ,made a visit to my mechanic who recommends replacement of sets of Front shock absorbers/lower arms/absorber links/tie rod ends and anti-roll bar bushes and Rear absorber sets .
This 'repair' job makes taking right side cornering even worst than before.
Hence scheduling this alignment job .

3 )This current alignment result of Left Front camber of +ve 0° 15' is much better than before 'repair' on cornering into right side , although the steering wheel was still a bit unsteady/not firm at faster speed .

4 )However, the Right Front camber of -ve 0° 15' gave me very firm and steady steering (which I like it) on making cornering into left on high speed .......
hence my current rumblings on the 'less than ideal' alignment readings , despite within specs and of green colour .

5 )Of course pulling left on straight highway driving further compound my annoyance of less steady cornering into RHS.

Thanks I would do some read up on coilovers with pillow ball top mounts . Any or what difference it has with a camber plate ?

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 3 2021, 09:36 PM

Yes @dwRK I used to consider myself as being not a fan of tyre alignment and rotation till todate .

Subsequent to my previous wheel alignment 3.5 years ago post front axle tyres replacements ,about a year later my mechanic did advise me to do another wheel alignment after changing some front suspension parts (not sure whether it is cheapo absorbers or absorber links etc ) .

However as typically , I did not follow through with the alignment advice as I felt vehicle handling/cornering was ok and fine .

This may help explain why about a year ago , I began feeling unsteady/unstable steering wheel during cornering into Right ...... probably caused by and related to out of spec alignment angles .

If not for the recent 'major' front suspension parts replacement and I was troubled by the real 'lousy' right turn cornering and pulling left , I wouldn't have visited this alignment shop .

As regards current alignment values as being too neutral .... easy to drift and unstable at high speed .......
I think you could be right about it including the marginal assymetric camber angles not being a problem .

Do you think an inappropriate or less than 'ideal' non-adjustable front caster angles could lead to my current 'complaints of annoyance' ??? .

I think you are right in suggesting the 3.5 year olds 'worn' front tyres could cause pulling to one side here ......

Unfortunately caster angles are not being checked and measured here , accepting the scenario that Caster angles on Avanza can't be adjusted .

On torque-steer / acceleration/deceleration , I would need to google to read up more about it and appreciate your highlighting of it .

Oh no ... the pulling left phenomenon that I tested occurs at straight ahead driving at a constant road speed of 80/90/110 km per hr , not really during acceleration/deceleration , if that matters .

Quantitatively , I would say my Avanza pulling left fully occupying/blocking neighbouring lane completely in about 6-8 seconds after hands off steering wheel whilst traveling at 90 km/hr .

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 4 2021, 11:12 AM

Oh yesss..... RS Ultra is a lot lot more stiffer than the cheapo units (brand , don't know) that was removed .
This Avanza is no longer the bouncy , harsh stiff like rock type suspension that I had come to accept for years .....
RS Ultra really drastically smoothened out the uncomfortable bouncing at fast ride over residential area road bumps/yellow paint linings near curve/traffic lights/junctions etc .
The ride now is more comfortable, stable and firm running over uneven road surface at speed ....
and gives a nice sense in driving experience , leading me to have higher expectations on cornering stability/steadiness in fast speed cornering ........
it is now a joy and nice feeling in taking fast corners , where -ve camber angle setup matters a lot .
This RS Ultra is good recommendation I picked from the Avanza car club on lowyat , and I strongly recommend it to all first gen Avanza owners here .
Not sure whether it works equally well in 2nd gen Avanzas or other vehicle models .

Note:My mechanic commented that RS Ultra diameters are much bigger/coarser than the out going units and he demonstrated to me its strong resistance of forceful push against absorber 'piston' vs the old units showing vast differences between them .



This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 4 2021, 01:58 PM

The OEM camber spec of Mininum is -ve 0° 15' , and its Maximum is +ve 1° 15' as per Post #1 .

Now the second 'potential' shortcomings I was suspicious about is the OEM preferred Camber angle of +ve 0° 30' ±0° 45' ....
where tops of tyre are tilted away from vehicle centreline when view from car front or rear .

This IMO , will result in far more unsteady/unstable steering wheel during (fast/hard) cornering into right or left hand sides . Of course it may be fine with slow cornering though .

With a lesser/smaller LF camber of +ve 0° 15' right now ,I can already feel or sense the lack of firmness of steering wheel movement which I felt uncomfortable with at fast cornering . I can't imagine how unsteady would be the steering wheel movement with OEM spec'ed camber of +ve 0° 30' in taking fast corners ?

Why would Toyota specify such 'big' +ve camber in 2007 Avanza 1.3 L ?
Is Avanza 1.5L or of different gen specify same 'big' +ve camber ?

Hope any readers here with other mini MPV/SUV of brands like Nissan, VW, BMW,Honda Toyota etc would upload their wheel alignment screenshots for comparison and further elaboration .

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 7 2021, 10:54 AM

Yes you're right that I typically drive the Avanza alone and max at 2 pax .

Most owners/drivers of first gen Avanza (2003 - 2011 , F601 F602) has complaints on its 'exceptionally' harsh and bouncy suspension system from factory . Users generally attribute the harsh/bouncy suspension to combo of stiffer spring/softer shock absorber from Factory .

Just prior to this alignment adjustment job , I followed Avanza car group recommendation of switching to stiffer shock absorber ( KYB RS Ultra) in both front and rear and realise that the previously accepted norms of harsh and bouncy suspension and its discomfort is no longer true , but greatly improved now .

From thence on , I tend to speed faster on good/bad pavement and harder cornering only to realise the relevance and importance of -ve camber which I did not much care about or bother about from previously harsh/stiff suspension from factory .

RS Ultra is real steady and smooth on straight ahead driving on highway currently am beginning to like/prefer/enjoy the RF -ve camber of -0°15' in slightly harder cornering and found LF +ve camber +0°15' a bit irritating at cornering into Right . Not sure if higher +ve camber in (Toyota) preferred +0°30' specs would help in steady and smooth suspension either in straight ahead highway driving and/or right/left cornering ? Who knows .

Improved suspension comfort with full load/weight ? I tend to agree with this approach as I'd found out with my Hilux previously .

At similar design load/weight , isn't a stiffer Ori Avanza spring meant to limit McPherson suspension spring travel and/or changes in alignment angles like say , camber ? IDK .

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 8 2021, 10:43 AM

Thanks .... a good ballpark range of camber angles to work with , I suppose .
In your experience , is -0.5° camber edge wear easily noticeable by eye sighting or it can only be felt by running hand fingers/palms over tyre surface to 'feel' the wear or no edge wear indication at all ?
A -1.5° camber would give visually noticeable wear indications I guess ...... what about -1° camber wear , can it be seen with naked eyes too ?

Brilliant ........ a picture speaks a thousand words .

You gave me a superbly useful idea here in taking pictures periodically on tyre conditions with attached remarks (as I did with my engine oil blotter spot tests ) ..... as a way of observing and keeping track of developments surrounding alignment angles selection choices and and tyre wear trending .

The inner edge pattern has a marginally greater/higher wear rate than that of the outer edge . Granted your specific driving pattern and respective proportion of mileages on straight ahead vs cornering/curved roads , I would speculate this inner edge wear is solely attributed to the 'excessive' camber angle of -1.5° , assuming your toe-in has never gone into negative toe out during the 70K km usage AND underinflation has never occurred which I suppose is highly likely . Not sure if you would agree with .

On outer edge wear , I beg to differ from you and wish to argue that it is not contributed by hard cornering as you proposed but 'solely' caused by toe in over huge amount of straight ahead driving ? I am ignoring quantitative amount or causes of wear within region 5-10 mm from the outer edge sidewall .

dwRK, can you share the amount of toe in as 'installed' then ?

As regards pumped pressure of 36 psi , may I know what is the factory recommended psi for said vehicle ?

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 9 2021, 07:33 PM

Wheel Alignment Tutorial (Pt. 3) Camber Adjustment - Positive or Negative?
By : YS Khong Driving
8.16 ......... For people who want the car to handle a bit better like driving fast .....wants negative camber .....

11.46 ........For road cars like Honda Civic ,Toyota Vios or Proton etc ..... you probably want to look at maybe -0.5° or -1.0° negative camber ....

20.03 ........negative camber is good for cornering but up to a point .
For normal people ...... don't think should go for more than -1.0°.....
or -1.5° for Bentong Gombak type of road if one is driving fast , otherwise -0.5° or -1.0° is good enough.....
For race track , may be run -2.5° or -3.0° ........

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 9 2021, 10:06 PM

Update :

Redo/readjust (foc) Front wheel alignment to :

Camber :
LF -0°20' (from +0°15') ;RF -0°15' (from -0°15') ;

Toes :
LF +0°07' (from 0°00') ; RF +0°05' (from 0°00') .

Tyre pressure : remains same at 40 psi all round .

(Note :Sorry, miss to take pictures on computer screen . The tyreman flips the screen too fast .)

Pulling left phenomenon still remains , but much improved and better than before .

Instead of swerving to fully occupying left lane in about 6-7 seconds after hands off steering wheel previously , it takes a longer time now at around 10-12 seconds at 90 km/hr ....
but it is still obvious .

But now unfortunately one new problem crops out . Previously steering wheel is straight when driving straight ahead , but now steering wheel is leaning to right when driving straight ahead .

Any comments , folks ?

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 12 2021, 01:55 PM

After returning from test driving , they drove straight onto alignment machine to check and measure alignment angles .
No, they didn't lock the steering wheel during machine measurement and adjustment .

They then drove off the machine ramp without any adjustment works done on machine , thinking it was another test drive but after some 10 minutes or so only to find the car is in another corner of the workshop (which is out of sight) with LF wheel lifted off ground .

From there , the Avanza was driven onto machine ramp again for measurement of above angle numbers .Only LF camber was adjusted on machine ramp from -0°25' to current -0°20' arriving at above reported numbers , also without locking the steering wheel .
Note: Not sure whether toe was adjusted on the machine ramp at the same time ?

After second test drive back to workshop , with tyres on ground they did some 'adjustment or tightening(?)' over RF side , then call it good to go .

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 12 2021, 10:35 PM

Suspension System Functions & Components

by Kansow Vehicle Engineering

Yeah agree that the 0.3~1 mm toe is very negligible indeed .

This value may translate into 0.05-0.10° depending on tyre size .If it is a -ve toe out (instead of toe in) and in a RWD then it may have no role in your tyre outer edge wear above . In this scenario inadequate -ve camber of -1.5° would likely be the culprit for the outer edge wear .

Btw, is the drive a RWD or FWD ?

Yep agree that both inner and outer edge wear could happen to inside/outside wheels in a hard cornering indeed .

Hmm... -1.5° camber may be too negative a value for an Avanza that allows up to a 'minimum' of -0.25° (aka -0°15') . However ,I may consider more negative camber than spec should my tyre wear pattern 'allows' it , who knows .

At 36 psi for a spec'ed 34 psi application, it would likely rule out 'underinflation' issue in assessing your tyre wear pattern, I suppose .

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 20 2021, 09:13 PM

Didn't the tyre shop is valid for suggesting your driving style as such ?
..... although too positive a toe in angles may have influenced it as well ....., IMO .

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 25 2021, 03:12 PM

Thank you very much, dwRK ..



A very solid video meant for a pro like you , and a bit too taxing on my brain ......

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 29 2021, 10:41 AM