Wheel Alignment Tutorial (Part 2)
Toe-in ? or Toe-out ?
by YS Khong Driving

1. 1:20 Various tyre wear patterns ;
2. 5.00 As a general rule ,a Rear Wheel Drive RWD like Avanza, BMW, Mercedes or trucks would require a toe-in at Front wheels of about 0.5 - 1.0 mm on each side ;
3. 8:12 On Front Wheel Drive FWD like Lancers, Vios, City, VWs Vento/Golf, it generally requires a slight toe-out at Front wheels of say, not more than 1 mm per side like 0.6-0.7 mm ;
4. 11:47 Aggressive drivers of FWD cars should have more toe-outs at Front wheels ;
5. 12:26 Toe-out at Front wheels ,and toe-in at Rear wheels ....(for FWD ?) it is good for the car tracking straight ahead and it doesn't drift left and right whilst driving straight ahead ;
6. 13:30 On FWD cars like Proton Satrias, Peroduas, Vios with a 'possibly inappropriate, according to YS Khong'(my word) toe-in at Front wheels, what is going to happen to the cars ?
   ..... for an open differential car at high speed (of say, at 110 or 120 km/hr) the FWD car would be drifting left and right, and highly unstable ;
7. 14:53 FWD cars should have toe-out at Front wheels. It will be very stable on acceleration and effective in stopping during braking action ;
8. 15:15 Meanwhile, FWD cars should provide toe-in at Rear wheels, if it is adjustable, for more effective stopping (in shorter distance?) and remain steady during braking action ;
9. 16:38 If a FWD car toes-out (too much) at Rear wheels, during braking action the car may be skidding and becomes unstable .....
   Hence it is good for a FWD car to toe-in slightly at Rear wheels ,whilst maintaining a slight toe-out at Front wheels ;
10. 16:53 For RWD cars with slight toe-in at Front wheels ,the Rear wheels should also be toed-in slightly but less(er than a FWD) like 0.1-0.2 mm per side (or zero toes), for more effective/stable braking action;
11. 17:33 For RWD cars, one should toe-in at the Front wheels whilst the Rear wheels at zero toes or slightly toe-in ;
12. 17:40 For FWD cars, one should have toe-out at the Front wheels and toe-in at the Rear wheels ;
13. 17:46 The amount of toes should not be more than 1 mm on each wheel as a general rule, but it is safer to keep it to 0.6-0.8 mm per side ;
14. 18:02 For 4WD cars, always provide toe-out at the Front wheels and toe-in at the Rear wheels .

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 31 2021, 03:06 PM

very complex oh. i support zero alls

Source

This post has been edited by zeng: Jan 7 2022, 12:52 PM

Heel and toe wear



Source

Any recommendations for good wheel alignment in Klang Valley? I'm really sensitive to what's going on at the wheel and steering.

Bezza 1.3
5 yrs old
Recently replace all suspension, lower arm, stabilizer link rod due to wear and tear

Have tried a few big name shops but still
- The steering cannot be straight, some of them get it almost right
- Currently the steering is ever so slightly left, when going straight above 60kmh
- Currently toe is 0.03 for the fronts
- The car seems to pull right ever so slightly when accelerating or braking
- The car seems to be easier to turn left than right
- The car not really responsive to turn in
- The machine also shows the front left and right camber is not the same but they dont seem to recommend camber screw adjustment eventhough i asked for opinion
- The shops i went to did not take into account caster measurement
- They also seem to avoid the question why is the thrust angle unable to be 0 and is it possible to be 0? (It's always somewhere 0.02-0.04)
- There is a red figure on one of the real wheel but i forgot what. Torsion beam i guess cannot adjust right?

Really not syok to drive

So far only Perodua PJ Sentral service center able to do a really perfect job. Planted feeling and the nose can change direction freely
Maybe they follow a checklist specific to the car idk. But due to my job i cant wait 9am to 2pm++ each time just to do alignment

Wow,very elaborate and sharp queries/questions on alignment performance which I defer to other sifus in this forum.

By not syok to drive, you mean whilst driving straight ahead, or on braking, or on acceleration, or turning to left or turning to right ?

Yeah, my understanding on rear torsion beam is there isn't any provision for adjusting both camber and toe angles at the Rear.

Any sifu has tried adjusting alignment angles on Rear torsion beam design with 'aftermarket' tricks by those pros?


This post has been edited by zeng: Apr 16 2021, 04:21 PM

-double post-

This post has been edited by zeng: Apr 16 2021, 04:21 PM

One of my car factory setting is asking for - 3 to - 1 mm toe. My regular tyre shop refuse to follow the spec whenever I ask. Lol.


Attached thumbnail(s)

According to YS Khong Driving at 13:30 and 14:53, Front Wheel Drive cars should have called for toe outs (negative toe).

As this Dongfeng Peugeot 1.6L and 2.0L cars alignment specificatons calls for toe out's (negative), can you establish these cars are both Front Wheel Drives and not Rear wheel drive, as per YS Khong Driving's?

By being of lesser toe out's as done by the tyre guys (towards neutral or toe in's) can you feel the supposed difference in turning Right/Left at tight corners as being less responsive or less light, if perceptible?

It's supposed advantage being less twitchy on highway straight ahead driving I suppose.

For the benefit of other readers, my 'translation' of the specs are as follows:

Front Axle:
Camber LHS -0.2(+0.6/-0.4)°
Camber RHS -0.2(+0.4/-0.6)°

SAI/IA* LHS -12.7(+0.4/-0.6)°
SAI/IA* RHS -12.7(+0.6/-0.4)°

Caster ---

Toes -2.5±1 mm


Rear Axle:
Camber -1.8±0.5 °

Toes 5.9±1 mm

This post has been edited by zeng: Apr 23 2021, 07:39 PM

Yes these cars are definitely front wheel drive.

Indeed I don't get the chance to try out the factory suggested toe value. My regular tyre shop refuse to follow because they claim I will need to get new tyre from them very soon.

Hi bro,

This Dongfeng Peugeot being a Front Wheel Drive has 'correctly' spec'ed a toe out for Front axle tyres in accordance with YS Khong Driving proposition. This imo is good practice.

Having said this, Dongfeng OEM has spelled out a toe out range from -3.5 mm to -1.0 mm (Correction: -1.5 mm). Contrast this with YS Khong Driving's proposed toe out of -0.6 mm or -0.7 mm or up to -1.0 mm of a typical Front Wheel Drive, I would personnally tag along with YS Khong's as being more appropriate imo.
Note: Your's proposed value of -1.0 mm toe out is reasonable and workable which imo your alignment guy should have adopted it.

Taking into consideration of YS Khong Driving's position, if it were me I would be agreeable with your alignment guy in 'shrinking' smaller OEM's toe outs angles to follow that of YS Khong Driving's toe out's of say -0.6 mm to -1.0 mm.

Your alignment guy may have a valid point in not complying with OEM's proposed/specified toe out values from -3.5 mm to -1.5 mm and I personnally concur with his saying "you will need to get new tyre from them very soon" may be valid afterall.

However, as of now you have not been able to spell out to us the exact values of toe out's/toe in's as provided by your alignment guy and I really hope he is kind of complying with YS Khong Driving's proposition in your context.

Edit:Do your previous worn out front tyres show higher wear rates at the inside edges of the tyres, if you can remember? Of course your driving style matters a lot.

This post has been edited by zeng: Apr 23 2021, 09:52 PM

Realising this Dongfeng Peugeot has a factory preferred RHS Front camber being more negative than that of LHS (i.e unbalanced Camber angles),
which may not suit our Malaysian road crowns as it possibly promotes cars veering left when driving straight ahead, among others ............

Do your car prone to veer left when new?

Wondering if other local Peugeots has similar 'unbalanced cambers' at Front axles from factory, and if so any veering left phenomenon among Peugeot owners?

Just curious.

This post has been edited by zeng: Apr 27 2021, 01:48 PM

Frankly speaking I can't really remember as the alignment seems fine all the while. It does not really pull to one side.

I believe a slight camber imbalance would not cause the car to pull. It's the tyre, bush and fittings that cause the pull.

I'm fact the outside seems to have slightly more wear than the inside.

Agree with you a slight camber imbalance may not cause a car pulling oneside.

In fact some cars do provide spec range of ±00°30' as acceptable difference between LF and RF camber angles.

Having said this, feedback from Peugeot thread does suggest pulling left was a problem for KL's Peugeots, but that was probably way back in early 2010's.

Could it be Peugeot Malaysia (or dealers) may have rectified this pulling left phenomenon in a recent year or two?

This post has been edited by zeng: Apr 30 2021, 08:35 PM

I asked about inner edge wear because of the huge amount of toe outs recommended by factory.
You seem to have no such huge toe out thing with more wear on outside edge.

Over-steer and Under-steer problems and its adjustments :



Source: Automobile handling, Wikipedia

This post has been edited by zeng: Oct 25 2021, 12:41 PM

In summary, make the axle that lose traction softer to increase grip/the axle that has too much grip stiffer to reduce grip.

i just leave it the shop they more expert do it everyday
but if they start to talk shit need to add chamber nut or what shit...i wud just walk off

One may be surprised that the use of camber/eccentric bolts in most modern vehicles is indeed genuine.



This post has been edited by zeng: Jun 3 2021, 02:08 PM