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 LYN Christian Fellowship V13 (Group), ALL about Jesus Christ.

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TSunknown warrior
post Jun 8 2017, 04:11 PM, updated 8y ago

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Welcome Fellow Christians.

We are here to fellowship, to reach out, to encourage, to strengthen one another and to be a Witness unto this lost world of the goodness and grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.


FAQ
Few simple RULES to follow in our fellowship thread.

1. No flaming/troll post please. Let's keep this fellowship thread clean, positive and encouraging, as the purpose is more for believers of Christ.
2. Do not argue about other religions please. People of other Faith are welcome to ask and enquire genuine questions or out of curiosity about Christianity.
3. What's discussed in here, stays in here.
4. Do not spark an argument or to cause excessive argument, both are not allowed, your post will be deleted and report to Admin of Forum


Previous Threads
v12
v12
V11
https://forum.lowyat.net/topic/3855898
V10
https://forum.lowyat.net/topic/3599570
V09
https://forum.lowyat.net/topic/3485130
V08
https://forum.lowyat.net/topic/3393815
V07
https://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showtopic=3197598
V06
https://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?act=ST&f...&t=2621686&st=0
V05
http://forum.lowyat.net/topic/1758395
V04
http://forum.lowyat.net/topic/801729


Good links to share:
http://www.opensong.org/
http://www.guitar4christ.com
http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/
a database of chords and lyrics for christian songs.

GodTV
http://www.god.tv/

Good TV
http://www.goodtv.tv/


Online Bibles!
English Bible (with multi lingual): http://www.biblegateway.com/

Indonesian/Malay Bible: http://alkitab.otak.info/

Arabic Bible: http://www.arabicbible.com/bible/doc_bible.htm

Dear Christians, please do let us know about u, like denominations, which church u r from and where is ur church located. Oh, beside that, do let us know what position are u holding in ur church, as in.. hmm pianist ? choral singer ? or even Pastor.


LYN Christ Followers

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «



Christian BookShop
1) Salvation Bookstore - PJ SS2, Summit USJ
2) Glad Sound - PJ SS2, Taipan USJ 10, One Utama
3) Evangel - PJ SS2
4) MPH Bookstore
5) Canaanland Sdn Bhd: - http://www.canaanland.com.my/index.php?opt...&id=6&Itemid=12

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Aug 27 2017, 11:16 PM
TSunknown warrior
post Jun 8 2017, 04:13 PM

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Sophiera
De_Luffy
Pehkay
KLboy92
desmond2020


De_Luffy
post Jun 8 2017, 04:17 PM

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Hello all, how's everyone doing?

Tinarhian where've you been?
TSunknown warrior
post Jun 8 2017, 04:17 PM

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Guys keep it clean, no more arguing.

FuxionX has stated no one is allowed to spark a debate. Anyone who wishes to do so, please do it at RWI.

This thread is for friendly fellowship among fellow believers.

As the TS of this thread, my advise is..

DON'T ENGAGE with anyone who tries to provoke argument or heated debate, just remain silent. I will delete such post. We will notify the Admin of such provocation and they will do the necessary.

Anyway it's V13 guys!!!!!! biggrin.gif
De_Luffy
post Jun 8 2017, 04:26 PM

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Kinda miss Tina joke here, her presence is always amusing tongue.gif
TSunknown warrior
post Jun 8 2017, 04:41 PM

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QUOTE(De_Luffy @ Jun 8 2017, 04:26 PM)
Kinda miss Tina joke here, her presence is always amusing tongue.gif
*
I kinda enjoy the time when we don't have to put our guards up and really relax no need to worry about what we say.

That is how Christian fellowship should be.

p.s: I kinda suspect the reason for MIA .....got a kid liao....but that's just speculation.



This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jun 8 2017, 04:47 PM
De_Luffy
post Jun 8 2017, 05:09 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jun 8 2017, 04:41 PM)
I kinda enjoy the time when we don't have to put our guards up and really relax no need to worry about what we say.

That is how Christian fellowship should be.

p.s: I kinda suspect the reason for MIA .....got a kid liao....but that's just speculation.
*
Yes, she indeed got mention she is pregnant the last time she was around, I think it's around this time she should be already due or already give birth smile.gif
Sophiera
post Jun 8 2017, 06:48 PM

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Oooh yay V13 congrats! rclxm9.gif

I really hope Tina's baby is well, healthy, and happy.

Last night I blew my top over a discussion. out of 10 people in the room, 8 say earth is due for a mass depopulation and war/famine/plague is necessary to 'bring balance' back, otherwise earth will run out of resources.

It's already arrogant enough to think that only other people will die, it's a next level of arrogant to say that even if humans have feeling nothing ultimately matters because of entropyscience.jpg mad.gif

Sah these people never experienced extreme hunger/thirst or having to watch their kids starve to death.

This post has been edited by Sophiera: Jun 8 2017, 06:50 PM
TSunknown warrior
post Jun 8 2017, 07:29 PM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Jun 8 2017, 06:48 PM)
Oooh yay V13 congrats! rclxm9.gif

I really hope Tina's baby is well, healthy, and happy.

Last night I blew my top over a discussion. out of 10 people in the room, 8 say earth is due for a mass depopulation and war/famine/plague is necessary to 'bring balance' back, otherwise earth will run out of resources.

It's already arrogant enough to think that only other people will die, it's a next level of arrogant to say that even if humans have feeling nothing ultimately matters because of entropyscience.jpg mad.gif

Sah these people never experienced extreme hunger/thirst or having to watch their kids starve to death.
*
laugh.gif

Learn to relax and don't let discussion or people to affect your feelings. Discuss with objectivity in mind so that people can understand.

But those who keep on stirring trying to provoke, you just ignore lah...your life doesn't revolve what these people say. Your revolves around what God says. icon_rolleyes.gif





wodenus
post Jun 8 2017, 07:35 PM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Jun 8 2017, 06:48 PM)
Oooh yay V13 congrats! rclxm9.gif

I really hope Tina's baby is well, healthy, and happy.

Last night I blew my top over a discussion. out of 10 people in the room, 8 say earth is due for a mass depopulation and war/famine/plague is necessary to 'bring balance' back, otherwise earth will run out of resources.

It's already arrogant enough to think that only other people will die, it's a next level of arrogant to say that even if humans have feeling nothing ultimately matters because of entropyscience.jpg mad.gif

Sah these people never experienced extreme hunger/thirst or having to watch their kids starve to death.
*
Malthusians. Personally I think they're all waiting to profit from it.
wodenus
post Jun 8 2017, 07:36 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jun 8 2017, 07:29 PM)
your life doesn't revolve what these people say. Your revolves around what God says. icon_rolleyes.gif




TSunknown warrior
post Jun 8 2017, 07:52 PM

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QUOTE(wodenus @ Jun 8 2017, 07:36 PM)
*
Wsup Wodenus. Didn't know you are Christian, if you are, welcome aboard bro.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jun 8 2017, 08:12 PM
Sophiera
post Jun 8 2017, 08:04 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jun 8 2017, 07:29 PM)
laugh.gif

Learn to relax and don't let discussion or people to affect your feelings. Discuss with objectivity in mind so that people can understand.

But those who keep on stirring trying to provoke, you just ignore lah...your life doesn't revolve what these people say. Your revolves around what God says. icon_rolleyes.gif
*
It wasn't an open forum. More like the end of a chain of discussion between friends. Now I'm starting to mistrust the value of 'friend' also, if I'm so readily disposable in the name of planet Earth rclxub.gif

Aiyoh. When it really happens, expect a lot of screaming to the sky, existential crisis, 'god don't exist', and whatever negativity shakehead.gif I keep warning my friends be careful for what you wish for.

Heh wodues, I'm not surprised either if they deep down wanted opportunity to climb up top. Right now many people feel like everything's rigid and stagnant.
TSunknown warrior
post Jun 8 2017, 08:13 PM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Jun 8 2017, 08:04 PM)
It wasn't an open forum. More like the end of a chain of discussion between friends. Now I'm starting to mistrust the value of 'friend' also, if I'm so readily disposable in the name of planet Earth rclxub.gif

Aiyoh. When it really happens, expect a lot of screaming to the sky, existential crisis, 'god don't exist', and whatever negativity shakehead.gif I keep warning my friends be careful for what you wish for.

Heh wodues, I'm not surprised either if they deep down wanted opportunity to climb up top. Right now many people feel like everything's rigid and stagnant.
*
Sometime people just talk....u know. Don't think they'll dispose anyone.
Sophiera
post Jun 8 2017, 08:19 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jun 8 2017, 08:13 PM)
Sometime people just talk....u know. Don't think they'll dispose anyone.
*
Hard to tell. I had to block someone in the chat for being creepily intrusive, writing down detailed steps on how to make a virus to kill every single human being on planet earth.

Another person said "soph you got trolled so hard". And then the person said "No I'm absolutely serious". Whenever topic about human population appears confirm will have plans of extermination peppered at the side.

I don't think this person had a happy family life, if any.

I sure hope for the rest, it is just talk. Not really believing what they say as truth...

This post has been edited by Sophiera: Jun 8 2017, 08:20 PM
TSunknown warrior
post Jun 8 2017, 08:26 PM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Jun 8 2017, 08:19 PM)
Hard to tell. I had to block someone in the chat for being creepily intrusive, writing down detailed steps on how to make a virus to kill every single human being on planet earth.

Another person said "soph you got trolled so hard". And then the person said "No I'm absolutely serious". Whenever topic about human population appears confirm will have plans of extermination peppered at the side.

I don't think this person had a happy family life, if any.

I sure hope for the rest, it is just talk. Not really believing what they say as truth...
*
Nah don't worry too much about it. Time to get back on talking about our Christian Life...living the life, the Faith, the challenges. More importantly to understand Christ Jesus our Lord better.
wodenus
post Jun 8 2017, 08:29 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jun 8 2017, 07:52 PM)
Wsup Wodenus. Didn't know you are Christian, if you are, welcome aboard bro.
*
Thanks.. that is kind of hard to remember in /k/ smile.gif

Sophiera
post Jun 8 2017, 08:31 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jun 8 2017, 08:26 PM)
Nah don't worry too much about it. Time to get back on talking about our Christian Life...living the life, the Faith, the challenges. More importantly to understand Christ Jesus our Lord better.
*
Right nod.gif

With that said...

I SUPER RECOMMEND THIS PODCAST SERIES

https://thebibleproject.simplecast.fm/

I really need to get through them to understand how people read the bible in their time.
wodenus
post Jun 8 2017, 08:33 PM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Jun 8 2017, 08:19 PM)
Hard to tell. I had to block someone in the chat for being creepily intrusive, writing down detailed steps on how to make a virus to kill every single human being on planet earth


They are young maybe.. and maybe they are writers or something, that would make a nice plot for a book or movie. How do you make a virus that can kill everyone, and how does someone stop it? smile.gif people take this life too seriously, it's all they have I guess.

Funny thing is... in a hundred years or so, every human being alive on the planet now will be dead anyway, might save him the trouble smile.gif



TSunknown warrior
post Jun 8 2017, 08:40 PM

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QUOTE(wodenus @ Jun 8 2017, 08:29 PM)
Thanks.. that is kind of hard to remember in /k/ smile.gif
*
But your tree octopus picture is so remember able...

When I first join LYN, I thought it was a status logo..something like VIP logo. What is a tree octopus anyway?


QUOTE(Sophiera @ Jun 8 2017, 08:31 PM)
Right nod.gif

With that said...

I SUPER RECOMMEND THIS PODCAST SERIES

https://thebibleproject.simplecast.fm/

I really need to get through them to understand how people read the bible in their time.
*
Yeah the Bible project Team makes understanding the Bible so much easier....they make it simple and yet fascinating.


wodenus
post Jun 8 2017, 08:50 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jun 8 2017, 08:40 PM)
But your tree octopus picture is so remember able...

When I first join LYN, I thought it was a status logo..something like VIP logo. What is a tree octopus anyway?


Ha that was before all this.. don't want to remember that time lol. That was a different time. I took that from somewhere, someone said that if you threw an octopus in a tree he could see everything, but no one will say "look, there's an octopus in a tree" because they're afraid of being seen as delusional lol smile.gif


QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jun 8 2017, 08:40 PM)
Yeah the Bible project Team makes understanding the Bible so much easier....they make it simple and yet fascinating.


I dunno.. I just read it lol, makes sense to me smile.gif


TSunknown warrior
post Jun 8 2017, 09:00 PM

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QUOTE(wodenus @ Jun 8 2017, 08:50 PM)
Ha that was before all this.. don't want to remember that time lol. That was a different time. I took that from somewhere, someone said that if you threw an octopus in a tree he could see everything, but no one will say "look, there's an octopus in a tree" because they're afraid of being seen as delusional lol smile.gif
I dunno.. I just read it lol, makes sense to me smile.gif
*
biggrin.gif Cool. I saw a documentary once. Octopus in Small Fish Tank, food in an enclosed Jar lid.

It was left alone camera recording the whole thing. It just came out, open the jar lid with it's tentacle, ate the food and tried to escape the room, laboratory perhaps.

It's scary to think how intelligent they are.

Sophiera
post Jun 8 2017, 09:13 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jun 8 2017, 09:00 PM)
biggrin.gif Cool. I saw a documentary once. Octopus in Small Fish Tank, food in an enclosed Jar lid.

It was left alone camera recording the whole thing. It just came out, open the jar lid with it's tentacle, ate the food and tried to escape the room, laboratory perhaps.

It's scary to think how intelligent they are.
*
Octopi are both cute and terrifying. There was this octopus who kept shooting hot light bulbs for fun. Each time the aquarium folks fixed the light bulb, the octopus will shoot it again. And again. And again. Eventually they moved the lights elsewhere.

and then there's this




TSunknown warrior
post Jun 8 2017, 09:21 PM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Jun 8 2017, 09:13 PM)
Octopi are both cute and terrifying. There was this octopus who kept shooting hot light bulbs for fun. Each time the aquarium folks fixed the light bulb, the octopus will shoot it again. And again. And again. Eventually they moved the lights elsewhere.

and then there's this


*
lol.
TSunknown warrior
post Jun 9 2017, 08:40 AM

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Righteousness of Faith

Romans 3:20-23 (NIV) - But now, apart from the Law, the righteousness of God has been revealed, as attested by the Law and the Prophets. And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no distinction, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Faith is attractive to God. If there are 100 people in a room and there's only 1 person who believe and exhibit Faith, I believe the eyes of God will zoom in on that 1 person, bypassing the rest. This happened about 2000 years ago when 4 friends tried to lower a lame friend on a Mat on a roof in a throng of crowd..so many people were there, no one could came in by the door and yet Jesus's eyes zoom in on the 4 friends among a huge crowd. (Luke 5:20) You must understand everyone was there, they came with a hope of healing and yet the Bible recorded, among the huge crowd, these 4 friends exhibited FAITH.

In a recent incident, an impression was given unless you repent and be right before God, God will not answer prayer. The emphasis is on "performance" or doing. Yet the Bible teaches otherwise.
Jesus says in Mark 11:24 - Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

The Devil is afraid that people know this truth, he rather that you bank your confidence before God on your performance (Law). Do you know that it is possible that between a person..let say one who never fails to go to Church on Sunday, who read his bible, perhaps even serve playing the piano or keyboard faithfully and say a casual Church visitor who don't really come in contact to Church consistently but on that Day He believe what the Lord Jesus says and comparing the person who plays the piano faithfully, God answered that casual person. And the one who plays the Piano faithfully is dumbfounded why his prayers never get answered.

We must come to the place where we must disregard and consider all our performances before the Lord as Filthy Rags even though we may have done right consistently. And only count on Faith and Faith alone in God for righteousness, believing the Lord will answer because we believe. Not because we've performed. Romans 3:23 tells us why.

There is no distinction, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God


I believe this is something some Christian still do not understand. We cannot bring to God of our performances because we have all fallen short of the Glory of God. This is basic but profound truth.

I hope that with this truth revealed, you will start to practise your Faith and believe, God willing, He will answer according to your Faith and let it be unto you.

God Bless.


De_Luffy
post Jun 9 2017, 09:26 AM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Jun 8 2017, 06:48 PM)
Oooh yay V13 congrats! rclxm9.gif

I really hope Tina's baby is well, healthy, and happy.

Last night I blew my top over a discussion. out of 10 people in the room, 8 say earth is due for a mass depopulation and war/famine/plague is necessary to 'bring balance' back, otherwise earth will run out of resources.

It's already arrogant enough to think that only other people will die, it's a next level of arrogant to say that even if humans have feeling nothing ultimately matters because of entropyscience.jpg mad.gif

Sah these people never experienced extreme hunger/thirst or having to watch their kids starve to death.
*
I was reading the other's comments on the other thread by sylar yesterday evening, so many accusation hurled at me. I was so pissed and upset...they themself is the one that called me to take action yet at same time blame it all on me. Really hate those double face peoples mad.gif

yes, I wish her baby is well and healthy too. Miss her here alot...Her posts some how soothes our rage toward those hypocrites with her funny comments against them laugh.gif
De_Luffy
post Jun 9 2017, 06:11 PM

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Need a prayer here, was really stressed out by this client which in turn chasing us every hours for update very stressful, when I in turn chasing my vendor they got angry for pushing them
TSunknown warrior
post Jun 9 2017, 07:21 PM

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QUOTE(De_Luffy @ Jun 9 2017, 06:11 PM)
Need a prayer here, was really stressed out by this client which in turn chasing us every hours for update very stressful, when I in turn chasing my vendor they got angry for pushing them
*
Okay, Ill cover you in prayer. Bro have Faith, God willing, The Lord will move and influence the vendor on your behalf.

TSunknown warrior
post Jun 10 2017, 08:35 AM

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I just want to testify and give glory to God, that He answered my prayer with regards to my work.

Had a predicament with regards to penalty matter from a vendor. Now it's settled.

Thank you Lord Jesus.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jun 10 2017, 08:38 AM
Sophiera
post Jun 10 2017, 02:18 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jun 10 2017, 08:35 AM)
I just want to testify and give glory to God, that He answered my prayer with regards to my work.

Had a predicament with regards to penalty matter from a vendor. Now it's settled.

Thank you Lord Jesus.
*
What is a penalty matter blink.gif ?
De_Luffy
post Jun 10 2017, 02:43 PM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Jun 10 2017, 02:18 PM)
What is a penalty matter blink.gif ?
*
I've been up early today working and chasing my agents non-stop, agent also pissed off already, myself also rushing going for vacation shortly and last minute packing still not yet finish packing also, been upset by the attitude of this agent. giving me headache and adrenaline rush mad.gif

TSunknown warrior
post Jun 10 2017, 03:24 PM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Jun 10 2017, 02:18 PM)
What is a penalty matter blink.gif ?
*
Well...we wanted to cancel the service of a particular vendor due to unreliable product but because agreement is until next year, they wanted to penalize us because of early termination.

Somehow we've come to an agreement that is on our term and they agreed....to me that is the intervention of God, because of prayer. No Vendor would have agreed to do this. I won't disclose the term here bcos it's P&C, but if you know what it is, you would agree it's God.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jun 10 2017, 03:26 PM
TSunknown warrior
post Jun 10 2017, 03:44 PM

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QUOTE(De_Luffy @ Jun 10 2017, 02:43 PM)
I've been up early today working and chasing my agents non-stop, agent also pissed off  already, myself also rushing going for vacation shortly and last minute packing still not yet finish packing also, been upset by the attitude of this agent. giving me headache and adrenaline rush mad.gif
*
Bro, I know you're stressed out but being stress out isn't going to help anyway....might as well try to relax.
TSunknown warrior
post Jun 13 2017, 09:11 AM

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Faith

Romans 10:17 (NIV) - Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

Morning fellow believers of Christ.

This is a powerful verse. It helps us to understand, Faith is not something we conjure up by our means. It says here Faith comes...
Meaning to say it is effortless and comes naturally when you hear the spoken words about Christ. This translation is quite accurate. It used to be that, we understand in other/older translation, Faith comes from hearing the word of God, it is not wrong but the right context is about Christ. Why?

Why hearing about Christ brings Faith? Now don't miss this. This is very powerful, In

Hebrews 1:1-3 (NIV) - In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

What this verse means is that, in the past God chose many to represent Him before people, there have been many prophets. People back see God through the words proclaimed by the prophets. However God left a very important key importance in this verse. Of ALL the representation, Jesus is the Last and Final representation and God wants us to know He is the EXACT representation. How Jesus is, is how God the Father is. So you may ask me,what has this got to do with Faith comes...?

Answer is everything. If Jesus is the Exact representation then it is to your interest to study how God is, in Jesus because it will help your faith.

I bring you one example. In the gospel, everyone who come to Jesus for healing, not one was turned away and all got healed. Study the Bible, Not one was decline, ALL WAS HEALED. So what this means is that you don't have to struggle trying to believe whether it's God's will to be healed or not. Know in your heart what is Jesus will for healing, have the confidence, It is an assured definite! If you're not sure, study all the incident of Healing by Jesus. Look at this verse below.

Matthew 8:2 (NIV) - A man with leprosy came and knelt before him and said, "Lord, if you are willing, you can make me clean.

There are some who do not doubt if God has the power, just like this leper. He did not doubt God has the power, he only doubt if God was willing to heal him of leprosy. Look at verse 3, let that revelation sink in.

Matthew 8:3 (NIV) - Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. "I am willing," he said. "Be clean!" Immediately he was cleansed of his leprosy.

When you understand this with revelation, your Faith works to believe that God is on your side for Healing without even trying to be certain if it is God's will or it isn't God's will. You may share this encouragement with people that you know of who has chronic health conditions. I pray it will help to reinforce their faith in God for healing. I know there are many WHAT IF's. Just tell them, we are called to live a life of Faith in Christ, God has forewarned us the righteous shall live by Faith, there is a reason for this living by Faith. If everything is automatic, you don't really need to live a life of Faith. There will be opposing forces (spiritual forces of darkness) that does not want the person in a predicament to be delivered of their condition. Tell the person to keep believing, Fight the good fight of Faith, Let the good Lord fight the Battle. This is in the Bible. It's in 1 Timothy 6:12 (NIV) - *Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

God Bless.


*You don't really need to fight if everything is automatic for you. (understand this before anything else)


This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jun 13 2017, 09:23 AM
Carlo J
post Jun 13 2017, 01:55 PM

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Hello everyone, have a great day and God bless smile.gif

Just realized it's a new version haha.
TSunknown warrior
post Jun 13 2017, 02:53 PM

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QUOTE(Carlo J @ Jun 13 2017, 01:55 PM)
Hello everyone, have a great day and God bless smile.gif

Just realized it's a new version haha.
*
Wsup bro. hows ur church doing?
Carlo J
post Jun 13 2017, 03:08 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jun 13 2017, 02:53 PM)
Wsup bro. hows ur church doing?
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Great so far.

Next month, we're merging prayer meeting and cell group so we can have more prayer time and a larger prayer group.

Our youth service is expanding too biggrin.gif

It's time for me to attend prayer meeting more actively.
TSunknown warrior
post Jun 13 2017, 03:10 PM

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QUOTE(Carlo J @ Jun 13 2017, 03:08 PM)
Great so far.

Next month, we're merging prayer meeting and cell group so we can have more prayer time and a larger prayer group.

Our youth service is expanding too biggrin.gif

It's time for me to attend prayer meeting more actively.
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thumbup.gif


I used to come from a small church...quite small less than 100 people.

one thing I notice is that bigger Church has the potential to expand much faster.

Yes. pls do attend prayer meet as regular as possible. It's good for your spiritual life.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jun 13 2017, 03:11 PM
Carlo J
post Jun 13 2017, 03:38 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jun 13 2017, 03:10 PM)
thumbup.gif
I used to come from a small church...quite small less than 100 people.

one thing I notice is that bigger Church has the potential to expand much faster.

Yes. pls do attend prayer meet as regular as possible. It's good for your spiritual life.
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My grandma is from a small church too, less than 100 members so everyone knows everyone lol.

True, besides CG, prayer meet is important too blush.gif
tinarhian
post Jun 13 2017, 11:44 PM

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Hi guys. Yeah the baby is fine and healthy. thumbsup.gif

I see the usual going-ons, mostl of the time I read on my iPad, lazy to log and reply. hehe...
TSunknown warrior
post Jun 14 2017, 11:38 AM

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The Graceful God who is close to sinners

Matthew 9:10-11 (NIV) - While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew’s house, many tax collectors and sinners came and ate with him and his disciples. When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?”

Morning guys. There was an impression given some time ago, unless your heart is right before God, God stays away from you, God will not answer your prayers. Fellow friends, if you study the Bible this God who are worship by the Angels, who are proclaimed trice Holy..."Holy Holy Holy is the Lord Almighty", a Holy God sat close, ate and drank with sinners as depicted in Matthew 9:10-11. This God is called Immanuel, God with us, it's a very deep meaning. So much so, it dumbfounded the religious leader of Jesus day, they could not accept it.

Today, there's a similar spirit trying to separate you away from God. The Bible actually helps us to understand, behind such a spirit, is the work of the devil. The Devil is called the accuser of the brethren. He accuses you of your shortfalls before God, usually accuses you by the law of God, such as you are unrighteous, you're a vile sinner, etc.

Jesus came to reconcile you back to God. This is the work of God. This Jesus who called Matthew to follow Him, knew everything there is about Matthew. In those day, Tax collectors are despised much worse than a prostitute because they collect tax for another nation, in a sense they are a betrayer and yet a Holy God calls one with such a despicable deposition to be his disciple. If the Lord can approach close to one such as a tax collector, what more any of us?

Dear friends, never doubt for once, The Lord loves you. There are many voices out there but I pray that you'll take heed the voice of Christ Jesus and the word of the Bible, what He thinks of you. Let that matter to you. Know that this Graceful God will never condemn. Read John 3:17 (NIV) - For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

This was practically demonstrated by Jesus Himself in John 8:11 (NIV) - "No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you,"Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin." The lady was a prostitute. Don't just read and rush this through. The religious leader wanted her to be stoned but are not qualified. God could but didn't. Think about it. If God does not condemn us, who are we to condemn others?

God gave first the Grace of No Condemnation...Why? I believe it is for a reason. There are many teachings to this but I want to bring 1 particular teaching that will help you understand the heart of God. It is God who forgive and he gives it to you on the ground of grace...meaning something you didn't earn to keep. On that basis, we are all on equal ground and thus has no right to throw dirt on others.

If God can come close to a vile person and save the person, I think in turn we as Christian should learn to come close to other and not judge another of their fault. This is practising the command of Christ: to love one another and also the most difficult, to Love your enemies.

If there's a person who have wandered away from God, I hope this message will give you the courage to come back to God who is close to sinners.

God Bless.


This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jun 14 2017, 11:40 AM
De_Luffy
post Jun 14 2017, 12:39 PM

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Tinarhian Please don't bother replying that guy
De_Luffy
post Jun 14 2017, 12:40 PM

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QUOTE(tinarhian @ Jun 13 2017, 11:44 PM)
Hi guys. Yeah the baby is fine and healthy.  thumbsup.gif

I see the usual going-ons, mostl of the time I read on my iPad, lazy to log and reply. hehe...
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you got time to reply on the other thread tongue.gif
TSunknown warrior
post Jun 14 2017, 03:17 PM

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Verse 1
The blood of Jesus speaks for me
Be still my soul, redeeming love
out of the dust of Calvary
is rising to the throne above
There is no vengeance in His cry
while it is finished, fills the sky
Forgiveness is the final plea
The blood of Jesus speaks for me

Verse 2
My heart can barely take it in
He pardons all my guilty stains
Surrender all my shame to Him
He breaks the curse of every chain
My sin is great, but greater still
the boundless grace His heart reveals
A mercy deeper than the sea
the blood of Jesus speaks for me

INTERLUDE

Verse 3
When my accuser makes the claim
that I should die for my offense
I point him to that rugged frame
where I found life at Christ's expense
See from His hands, His feet, His side
the fountain flowing deep and wide
Oh hear it shout the victory
the blood of Jesus speaks for me



Bridge
Worthy is the Lamb, Lamb for sinners' slain
Jesus, Lord of all glory to His name
Heaven crying out, let the earth proclaim
power in the blood, glory to His name
Worthy is the Lamb, Lamb for sinners' slain
Jesus, Lord of all glory to His name
Heaven crying out, let the earth proclaim
power in the blood, glory to His name
Je-sus!

Verse 4
Oh let my soul arise and sing
My confidence is not in vain
The One who fights for me is King
His oath, His covenant remain
No condemnation now I dread
eternal hope is mine instead
His Word will stand, I stand redeemed
The blood of Jesus speaks for me
Amazing love, how can it be?
The blood of Jesus speaks for me
For me!
For me!


I Hope this song can minister to you. biggrin.gif
TSunknown warrior
post Jun 15 2017, 08:13 AM

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QUOTE(aaron61 @ Jun 15 2017, 03:27 AM)
Does anyone have a lunch time fellowship? I don't mind coming along to give a testimony. Raised from death. Now slightly paralysed ... so must testify of my encounter with the Lord.

I am 56 yo worshipping in SIB KL.

Let me know if interested.
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Hi, Maybe you can share here. What happened?
TSunknown warrior
post Jun 15 2017, 09:18 AM

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Hallmark of a Christian

1 Corinthians 13:4-7 (NIV)

Characteristic of Love

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love does not dishonour others, neither does it keep records of wrongs.

Jesus says to Love your Enemies, it is quite hard for some to do and yet many Christian fail on this account. I wonder what gives them the right to to claim so many things and yet never practises any of these but the opposite.

The Bible explains that when we do not adhere to the characteristic of Love, whatever we do, we become nothing. In essence empty religion takes over. Because there are times people have an intellectual knowledge of God, they know "about" God much better than others but do not have the power of God in their life. And they persecute other, when they think there's a conflict against what they intellectually understand about God, to me, this is hardly the trait of a practising Christian.

I believe as Christians we need to adhere to this because over all Jesus did say to obey this command. When one fails this and claim that He Loves God and brush others and Hate his brother is a liar. God made this equation because He wants everybody to live in harmony as much as possible.

And Christ made this command simple. You can test and gauge yourself whether we are living and having the Hallmark of a Christian.

God Bless.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jun 15 2017, 09:34 AM
TSunknown warrior
post Jun 15 2017, 09:36 AM

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Verifiable evidence for the existence of God.
thomasthai
post Jun 15 2017, 01:50 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jun 15 2017, 09:18 AM)
Hallmark of a Christian

1 Corinthians 13:4-7 (NIV)

Characteristic of Love

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love does not dishonour others, neither does it keep records of wrongs.

Jesus says to Love your Enemies, it is quite hard for some to do and yet many Christian fail on this account. I wonder what gives them the right to to claim so many things and yet never practises any of these but the opposite.

The Bible explains that when we do not adhere to the characteristic of Love, whatever we do, we become nothing. In essence empty religion takes over. Because there are times people have an intellectual knowledge of God, they know "about" God much better than others but do not have the power of God in their life. And they persecute other, when they think there's a conflict against what they intellectually understand about God, to me, this is hardly the trait of a practising Christian.

I believe as Christians we need to adhere to this because over all Jesus did say to obey this command. When one fails this and claim that He Loves God and brush others and Hate his brother is a liar. God made this equation because He wants everybody to live in harmony as much as possible.

And Christ made this command simple. You can test and gauge yourself whether we are living and having the Hallmark of a Christian.

God Bless.
*
Thanks for the reminder UW, needed that. But bear in mind, the most loving thing you can do sometimes is to tell the truth, it is unloving to keep somebody in error and in darkness.

Can I start a topic of discussion, what do you guys believe about young-earth theory?

Do you believe the literal account of Genesis?

This post has been edited by thomasthai: Jun 15 2017, 01:52 PM
TSunknown warrior
post Jun 15 2017, 05:14 PM

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QUOTE(thomasthai @ Jun 15 2017, 01:50 PM)
Thanks for the reminder UW, needed that. But bear in mind, the most loving thing you can do sometimes is to tell the truth, it is unloving to keep somebody in error and in darkness.

Can I start a topic of discussion, what do you guys believe about young-earth theory?

Do you believe the literal account of Genesis?
*
What Error, what darkness?

You mean to say the corruption of the Gospel is that If there are miracles proclaimed just like the brother share his testimony just above that God still works miracles today? That is corruption of the Gospel?

There are so many recorded testimonies, I'm just baffled at your statement.

If you don't agree that Miracles still happen today and you believed it stop in 1800's I'm fine with what you believe but I cannot agree with what you say the Gospel is corrupted if I preached a God who still works miracles today and you accuses me of spreading a corrupted Gospel. That is really insulting if not demeaning IMO. I live, breath and pray to God everyday and you have the gumption to agree with the other fella thinking that I'm a cult, etc. You just really have no idea how much of an insult that is.

I rather that you clarify this first before talking about YEC or OEC.

TSunknown warrior
post Jun 15 2017, 05:18 PM

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QUOTE(aaron61 @ Jun 15 2017, 04:13 PM)
Thank you for giving me this opportunity to share God's love and healing to all here.  rclxms.gif

in mid-2014, we (me & wife) were scheduled to speak at a marriage enrichment weekend in Singapore. After a dinner gathering 2 weeks before the program I was struck with a terrible gall bladder flare up.  Next morning I went into a private hospital to seek medical consultation. They scanned my gall bladder and confirmed there were gall bladder stones there and suggested I get the gall bladder removed (that being the usual SOP). I discussed my speaking schedule with the surgeon and he assured me I will be back home in 3 days time.  rclxms.gif

I checked in for surgery the next day and signed all medical forms. I woke up from the surgery after 5 hours and discovered a very big lateral incision (about 1 feet long made) in my abdominal area. My gall bladder was not removed but part of my intestines were. Complications set in and other surgeons found problems with first surgery. I was wheeled in for 2nd surgery after 1 week by another surgeon and more intestines were removed.  cry.gif

After that my abdominal system went on "auto shutdown". Probably angry with what's being done to it. After 4 weeks at private hospital, with abdominal system down and I couldn't take any food the surgeon asked my wife to take me home. My wife was stunned and furious. She asked "What do you me to take him home?" The replied was "We don't know what is happening?".

My wife then got me transferred to UM. 5 specialists came to check me up to investigate the issue .... I was deteriorating fast. 2nd day in UM I collapsed in a coma and was moved into ICU. My heart beat stopped and I couldn't breathe. Doctors revived me and put me into a life support system. A doctor called my wife and asked my family members in to see me for probably the last time. My wife alerted the family, cell, friends (all over the world) and our ministry HQ (in USA). Prayers went up to God's throne that few days. My family and relatives were allowed into ICU to visit me but my wife never go in to see me. She was angry I 'sneak off' without a proper goodbye to her.

3rd day on life support system the doctor called my wife to inform her the hospital will shut down the system and it is best she be there. The next morning the doctor and nurses came into the ICU ..........

I woke up and was standing in front of the open Pearly Gates in heaven. So peaceful and melodious music (I am a musician) was in that place ... probably angels praising God. I was at the doorway of the gates (just outside). I could see inside and the floor of heaven was covered with smooth white clouds. I stood at the doorway and said "Thank you Lord for Your promise and allowing me to come into Your presence. If You don't mind, there are some services I have yet to complete on Earth. Can I go complete these services and I will return here again." I hung my head down let out a sheepish grin. A light golden silky curtain rolled down to close the Pearly Gates and a pair of angels came to helped me to go meet Jesus.

The Lord Jesus saw me. He looked me in the eyes and said "Brother. Go and share your story." I walked towards Him and fell on my knees. The angels were no longer there. In my weakened state, I crawled to Jesus' feet. I turned my head up to look into His eyes. With tears in my eyes, I said "Heal me Lord and I can go share of this glorious encounter. 2 drops of blood fell on my arms (one on my left the other on my right arm). 1 Peter 2:24 ".... by His wounds you have been healed." I felt strength came over my body and I stood up. Jesus then said "Go now and share your story." I bowed and said "Thank you, Lord." I turned and took my leave.  rclxm9.gif

After the doctor shut the life support system, he pulled the long air tube that was inserted into my lungs out. I let out a cough and opened my eyes. So sweet the fresh air I began to breathe on my own. I sat up 90 degrees on the bed and turned to get off the bed. All the nurses left the ICU room quickly. (I now know ... they thought I was a zombie.) I stepped off the bed and saw the doctor there with his jaws almost touching the floor. He couldn't run as I step off the bed, I was blocking the doorway. I reached for his left arm with my right hand. I grabbed his left arm (bicep area) and felt some shivering there. I looked him in his eyes and asked "Am I going home today?". I saw relief came over him. He smiled, clapped and shouting to the nurses outside "Miracle patient !" Then the nurses (giggling at themselves) walked into the ICU room to clear up the room. I walked outside and sat in the visitor's lounge and crossed my legs as I usually do. My wife walked into the ICU area and was shocked to see me sitting on visitor's lounge chair. She blinked a few times and ran to hug me asking "What are you doing here?". I told her, "Checking out. I think?". I was transferred to normal ward for a few more days as my abdominal system re-operate again.

I had serious and permanent brain damaged due to mistreatment at the private hospital. Doctors at UM had not seen such recovery from patients having this condition. I was "specimen" in UM's visiting foreign specialist talk. My scans were shown and I was invited to stage to saw a few words. I received government's OKU card and benefits. I am getting stronger and alert by the day. I can drive now. Praise God!  notworthy.gif  notworthy.gif  notworthy.gif
*
Praise God brother, I believe in your testimonies. You're blessed to have witness Heaven and allowed to return to finished what God wants you to do. Go in the strength of God's grace brother. May your commission be fulfilled. rclxms.gif


tinarhian
post Jun 15 2017, 11:03 PM

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QUOTE(De_Luffy @ Jun 14 2017, 12:40 PM)
you got time to reply on the other thread tongue.gif
*
I don't see anything wrong with that dude. Of course I don't agree with what Sylar says but I'm not too bothered.

Move along now.
Sophiera
post Jun 15 2017, 11:28 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jun 15 2017, 09:36 AM)


Verifiable evidence for the existence of God.
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shocking.gif shocking.gif shocking.gif

i didn't know stainless steel and google from them also
De_Luffy
post Jun 16 2017, 07:49 AM

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QUOTE(aaron61 @ Jun 15 2017, 10:39 PM)
Thanks brother for this opportunity. Some of my in-laws who had seen me at the hospital and saw my miraculous recovery are now open to our family's Christmas party. We sang carols and shared God's blessings for the year ... last year (2016) they came to share the celebration with us.

Two of my Muslim friends who visited me regularly in the hospital were also very open to praying with me. When I end "In Jesus' name I pray. Amen." They will reply "Amin".

Praise God.  notworthy.gif
*
This is the proof that religions does not mix and can co exist with each other when in need, it's a harmony that is quite a rare sight today Amen for that smile.gif
thomasthai
post Jun 16 2017, 08:26 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jun 15 2017, 05:14 PM)
What Error, what darkness?

You mean to say the corruption of the Gospel is that If there are miracles proclaimed just like the brother share his testimony just above that God still works miracles today? That is corruption of the Gospel?

There are so many recorded testimonies, I'm just baffled at your statement.

If you don't agree that Miracles still happen today and you believed it stop in 1800's I'm fine with what you believe but I cannot agree with what you say the Gospel is corrupted if I preached a God who still works miracles today and you accuses me of spreading a corrupted Gospel. That is really insulting if not demeaning IMO. I live, breath and pray to God everyday and you have the gumption to agree with the other fella thinking that I'm a cult, etc. You just really have no idea how much of an insult that is.

I rather that you clarify this first before talking about YEC or OEC.
*
No mate calm down smile.gif

I think you misunderstood the term cessationist. I believe in miracles as much as you do, just that I don't believe the sign gifts are still operational today, that's all. Cheers smile.gif
TSunknown warrior
post Jun 16 2017, 08:47 AM

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Prosperity

James 5:10-11 (NIV) - 10 Brothers and sisters, as an example of patience in the face of suffering, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. 11 As you know, we count as blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of Job’s perseverance and have seen what the Lord finally brought about. The Lord is full of compassion and mercy.

What did the Lord brought about to Job at end? Why even mention about this? What is the significance? Whether we like it or not, the context of it was that The Lord restored Job of what He lost and not only that, the Lord prospered Him in multiple fold more than before. If this is something that is deemed evil by some of you. Why mention this in the Bible and it's in the New Testament. The reason why I bring this up is because there are people who tells me there is not 1 ounce of a verse that talks about prosperity and they say you're preaching corruption and erroneous interpretation.

Consider this proverbs as well. This is IN the Bible, not something created else where. It's not even a 10 commandment or mosaic Law but in the book of proverbs which has to do with wisdom.

Proverbs 3: 9-10

9 Honor the Lord with your wealth,
with the first fruits of all your crops;
10 then your barns will be filled to overflowing,
and your vats will brim over with new wine.

Argue all you want, this is in the Bible.

The only reason I see why there's a dissatisfaction with some of you because of your jealousy and insecurity, you cannot accept it that those who have trusted in the Lord is prospered by God. You envy with jealousy. There are some of you who are blatant hypocrite. You gnash your teeth at others the moment prosperity is mentioned in the settings of Christianity while you build expensive home for yourself and you invest in all kinds of investment trying to prosper your own finance by your own strength, trusting this in the things of Man. My own Pastor is a personal witness to this hypocrisy as well as I have heard of others.

Do not tell you do not believe in prosperity while you want your child to prosper in his/her life either by your fervent push for them to excel in their education or by the means of hope in God.

Do not be hypocrite but learn to understand Deuteronomy 8:17. If you have accepted Christ then you are Abraham's seed.

I leave this to your thoughts.




TSunknown warrior
post Jun 16 2017, 08:58 AM

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QUOTE(thomasthai @ Jun 16 2017, 08:26 AM)
No mate calm down smile.gif

I think you misunderstood the term cessationist. I believe in miracles as much as you do, just that I don't believe the sign gifts are still operational today, that's all. Cheers smile.gif
*
For me I do. The signs gifts are credential that the person's ministry is backed by God. 1 Corinthians 2:4 and 1 Corinthians 4:20 is valid throughout generations because Jesus never says anything on signs & wonders stops at his end after He descended, in fact He never say it will stop at all, we say it. That is our rationality over the bible when when we don't see miracles exhibited in some people's life. I think it would not be fair to rationalize like that.

Have you ever attended any Chinese healing ministry or of other nationality? The preachers are not practically unknown compared to those who are more aware of the English ones. I've seen it myself, they're genuine.

I know there are fake signs and gift out there but there are many genuine ones as well. I have faith that God take cares of his own and grant no grace to those who are not his.

But whether what is genuine or not, I leave that to the discretion of each person.



This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jun 19 2017, 09:56 AM
Sophiera
post Jun 16 2017, 05:38 PM

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Tina! Glad your baby is healthy. Baby boy or girl?

Thanks for the devotionals uw.

And guys, I've been doing daily prayers based on this website. They're from the book.of common prayers. Maybe this source is useful for you too smile.gif

http://prayer.forwardmovement.org
tinarhian
post Jun 19 2017, 12:27 AM

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Baby girl. thumbsup.gif


tinarhian
post Jun 19 2017, 12:38 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jun 16 2017, 08:47 AM)

The only reason I see why there's a dissatisfaction with some of you because of your jealousy and insecurity, you cannot accept it that those who have trusted in the Lord is prospered by God. You envy with jealousy. There are some of you who are blatant hypocrite. You gnash your teeth at others the moment prosperity is mentioned in the settings of Christianity while you build expensive home for yourself and you invest in all kinds of investment trying to prosper your own finance by your own strength, trusting this in the things of Man. My own Pastor is a personal witness to this hypocrisy as well as I have heard of others.
The only dissatisfaction I would say that I cannot accept (when regards to prosperity) is when church workers / pastors, etc abused the funds to use for their personal gain. That's the only issue that I have regarding this "prosperity" agenda.

I don't know about the others but its fine when God blessed us with prosperity or vice-versa.
Sophiera
post Jun 19 2017, 01:22 AM

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QUOTE(tinarhian @ Jun 19 2017, 12:27 AM)
Baby girl.  thumbsup.gif
*
rclxms.gif congrats on first daughter
TSunknown warrior
post Jun 19 2017, 08:56 AM

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QUOTE(tinarhian @ Jun 19 2017, 12:38 AM)
The only dissatisfaction I would say that I cannot accept (when regards to prosperity) is when church workers / pastors, etc abused the funds to use for their personal gain. That's the only issue that I have regarding this "prosperity" agenda.

I don't know about the others but its fine when God blessed us with prosperity or vice-versa.
*
You're talking about abused, I'm talking about God prospering his people, across the border. 2 different matters.

your concern is legitimate but that does not mean we should stop the truth of scripture, If God does indeed prosper then that is the truth.

Why do you need to confound the 2 and make it wrong? If the act of abusing, that is wrong, then address and attend to that specific matter of abused. Don't just because there is abused, you completely stop the truth of what God does. Don't you think that is wrong too?

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jun 19 2017, 09:09 AM
TSunknown warrior
post Jun 19 2017, 08:59 AM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Jun 16 2017, 05:38 PM)
Tina! Glad your baby is healthy. Baby boy or girl?

Thanks for the devotionals uw.

And guys, I've been doing daily prayers based on this website. They're from the book.of common prayers. Maybe this source is useful for you too smile.gif

http://prayer.forwardmovement.org
*
Good for you Sophie, see you're picking up! Keep pushing forward!
thomasthai
post Jun 19 2017, 09:23 AM

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QUOTE(tinarhian @ Jun 19 2017, 12:38 AM)
The only dissatisfaction I would say that I cannot accept (when regards to prosperity) is when church workers / pastors, etc abused the funds to use for their personal gain. That's the only issue that I have regarding this "prosperity" agenda.

I don't know about the others but its fine when God blessed us with prosperity or vice-versa.
*
One way to look at biblical prosperity is from the Lord's prayer. Jesus told us to pray in this way, 'give us this day our daily bread'.

I believe God promised to take care of all our basic physical needs, with bread symbolic of all basic necessities.

Jesus also told us to not store treasures on earth but in heaven. He already gave us the best gift ever, salvation. Throughout the bible we see poor and rich christians, the rich are supposed to help the poor.

He can bless us with plenty, as long as you work hard and honour Him. Its revolting when those preachers can tell us to demand prosperity from God.

TSunknown warrior
post Jun 19 2017, 09:42 AM

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QUOTE(thomasthai @ Jun 19 2017, 09:23 AM)
One way to look at biblical prosperity is from the Lord's prayer. Jesus told us to pray in this way, 'give us this day our daily bread'.

I believe God promised to take care of all our basic physical needs, with bread symbolic of all basic necessities.

Jesus also told us to not store treasures on earth but in heaven. He already gave us the best gift ever, salvation. Throughout the bible we see poor and rich christians, the rich are supposed to help the poor.

He can bless us with plenty, as long as you work hard and honour Him. Its revolting when those preachers can tell us to demand prosperity from God.
*
I think that scripture is taken out of context if you say do not store up treasure on earth....do you have a bank account?

Because if you do, then you are storing treasure...on earth.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jun 19 2017, 09:43 AM
thomasthai
post Jun 19 2017, 10:10 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jun 19 2017, 09:42 AM)
I think that scripture is taken out of context if you say do not store up treasure on earth....do you have a bank account?

Because if you do, then you are storing treasure...on earth.
*
Of course this is not about literally storing some money in a bank account, you have some humour biggrin.gif

But to demand prosperity from God is to store treasures on earth isnt it?
thomasthai
post Jun 19 2017, 10:25 AM

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Just want to add, the proverb says, (God) do not give me do much that I forget you, and do not give me do little that I have to steal and dishonour you.

This post has been edited by thomasthai: Jun 19 2017, 10:29 AM
TSunknown warrior
post Jun 19 2017, 10:37 AM

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QUOTE(thomasthai @ Jun 19 2017, 10:10 AM)
Of course this is not about literally storing some money in a bank account, you have some humour biggrin.gif

But to demand prosperity from God is to store treasures on earth isnt it?
*
Actually the word treasure is in reference to what is valuable, it uses the word treasure so that it applies across time and across beyond just money. But I think it applies to having a bank account as treasure as well but here is the key difference;

I think that verse is just concern on where we set our heart, whether on money as our primary treasure or God as our primary treasure on Earth.

It never means we cannot be prospered on Earth or to have financial savings (treasures).

I'm of the opinion don't pursue money, just let God prosper you but you have to accept it as part of scripture truth otherwise denial of it, will stifle it as well.





thomasthai
post Jun 19 2017, 10:51 AM

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I can amen to that, cheers biggrin.gif
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post Jun 19 2017, 10:55 AM

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QUOTE(thomasthai @ Jun 19 2017, 10:51 AM)
I can amen to that, cheers biggrin.gif
*
Thank you brother.

rclxub.gif rclxub.gif rclxub.gif


then why is other people fighting me on this?

haih.........so much needless challenges.



TSunknown warrior
post Jun 20 2017, 09:27 AM

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Unforgiving Servant

Matthew 18:35 (NIV) - "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart."

According to the parable of the unforgiving servant, If you read Matthew 18 verse 21 to 35, you'll begin to understand the heart of our God, The Lord wants every brother and sister in Christ to live in harmony with one another with our debt conscious paid. This is the nature of a good God. God foresaw long past..there will be the irony of people who for the slightest matter, will hold another person prison when he himself has been cleared of his own debt to God.

Truth is, we all owe a debt of sin to God. It cost God's own Son to pay all that we owe. So for someone who keeps on attacking others, holding bitter anger against others, has not really understood what God has done for Him in his life. There is no revelation of the cross in the person, perhap the person felt he still need to pay for his own actions to justify before God thus explain all the insecurities. This is the problem with self righteousness.

A forgiven believer is usually humbled because he understand he earns/worked nothing to get himself saved. On that ground He has no right to judge others and put them in prison. Friends, I'm sure you know, what I'm talking about.

There is also 1 other aspect why we need to forgive when a person hurt you. You do not want to contract what the person has. Forgiving the person releases you from such a bondage. You can sleep better if not get healthier. When you do not forgive a person, this sort of spirit binds your body to physical harm. It causes you to be bitter as well if not angry. Hence the explanation of handed over to the jailers...meaning to say there is a bondage.


Dear Friends, I pray that you will release anyone who has hurt you from unforgiveness. It is the right to do, it pleases God and it is to your own good interest.

God Bless.

TSunknown warrior
post Jun 20 2017, 02:43 PM

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He doesn’t fight crime or wear a cape
He doesn't read minds or levitate
But every time my world needs saving
He’s my superman

Some folks don’t believe in heroes
Cause they haven’t met my dad

He loves his workshop and rock n roll
He’s got a hot rod and a heart of gold
And you could say he’s a man of few words
But he talks a lot within

And even thought I’m a little taller
I still look up to him

He built me a house in the arms of a tree
He taught me to drive and to fight and to dream
When he looks in my eyes I hope he can see that
My dad’s a hero to me

Rust ridden fenders and doors full of dings
Somehow he can fix about anything
I didn’t think he knew how to cry until our dog died that year
He doesn’t always say I love ya
But I can hear him loud and clear

He built me a house in the arms of a tree
He taught me to drive and to fight and to dream
When he looks in my eyes I hope he can see that
My dad’s a hero to me
Sophiera
post Jun 20 2017, 05:34 PM

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Owl city! That's the guy with the firefly song.

Alamak his lyrics about dads made me crai cry.gif

About your devotional... Its something i agree in theory but in practice I find it difficult. Because, I feel the effects daily. Old cruelties are affecting how I think, what I do, and how i behave more than I'd like to admit.
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post Jun 20 2017, 07:04 PM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Jun 20 2017, 05:34 PM)
Owl city! That's the guy with the firefly song.

Alamak his lyrics about dads made me crai cry.gif

About your devotional... Its something i agree in theory  but in practice I find it difficult. Because, I feel the effects daily. Old cruelties are affecting how I think, what I do, and how i behave more than I'd like to admit.
*
He's a Christian btw. He also does some bit of evangelism thru his songs.

Hence why we need Grace of Christ empower us. Grace is not something erm.......it's not a subject matter. It is the person of Christ himself.

God's Grace can empower you to forgive someone.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jun 20 2017, 07:20 PM
starsdaylight
post Jun 20 2017, 09:38 PM

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Hi to all here, I feel an inclination to go clear my mind in a church after not stepping in one for many many years.

Are there any churches in KL that are open to people going in and sitting down (without being disturbed etc)? I'm asking here because I'm not familiar with any at all.
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post Jun 21 2017, 08:27 AM

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QUOTE(starsdaylight @ Jun 20 2017, 09:38 PM)
Hi to all here, I feel an inclination to go clear my mind in a church after not stepping in one for many many years.

Are there any churches in KL that are open to people going in and sitting down (without being disturbed etc)? I'm asking here because I'm not familiar with any at all.
*
Just my opinion bro.

if you go to a small school, everyone will notice you.

if you go to a large church, most likely, this is what you want (without being disturb) but at least you can sit down n pray, clear your mind, listen to the sermon (might help you).

You're welcome to try Calvary Church in Bukit Jalil. It's so big, you can't miss it. Come this Sunday bro, service starts at 9am. We have plenty of seats.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jun 21 2017, 08:31 AM
TSunknown warrior
post Jun 21 2017, 08:38 AM

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No Mixture

John 1:17 (NIV) - For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

The Grace of God causes you to rest. (in knowing your salvation is settled and secured by God) Therefore you can breath and live easy as a Free person.
The Law of God causes you to feel, it's not enough, that you need to do more, that you have something to measure up. You will feel unsure whether you qualify.

These are the 2 different covenants of God with regards to Salvation.
One is in the Old Testament and One is the New Testament.

There are many Christian who can't differentiate the 2, and try to amalgamate the 2 into their lives.
In essence the believe in this mixture causes Christians to live under the New Testament Covenant but with the Old Covenant Mindset.

Jesus calls this trying to put Old Wine into New Wine skin.
Jesus also says this will never work.

The wineskin will burst and not hold.
If you want to be close to God, you must embrace the New Covenant which is Grace!


This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jun 21 2017, 08:38 AM
TSunknown warrior
post Jun 21 2017, 10:53 AM

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Nevermind...these day there are crazy people. biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jun 21 2017, 11:06 AM
skydrake
post Jun 21 2017, 11:27 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jun 21 2017, 10:53 AM)
Nevermind...these day there are crazy people.  biggrin.gif
*
not just these days, since the day bible created. 😂
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post Jun 21 2017, 11:30 AM

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QUOTE(skydrake @ Jun 21 2017, 11:27 AM)
not just these days, since the day bible created. 😂
*
grin.gif
Sophiera
post Jun 21 2017, 05:34 PM

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Ahmighads people I found something interesting and funny!

http://sophtopus.tumblr.com/post/162079405...rmer-fatty-roah

Basically the majority of the disciples were.... TEENAGERS! Cue a lot of punk rock jokes.

The only two official adults in the group were Peter and Jesus, with Jesus probably ten whole years older than Peter.

Here's the copy pasta

Why this is possible:

Probaly they were all underage except for Peter. In Exodus 30:14-15, Jewish law states that every male over the age of 20 is to pay a half-shekel as census offering when they visit the temple of God. In Matthew 17:24-27, Jesus instructs Peter to “fish up” this tax. Peter finds a shekel in the mouth of the fish he catches; enough to pay the tax for two men, himself and Jesus. You could conclude that the others were underage and did not need to pay.

In Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, and John 13:33, Jesus calls his disciples little children .
We learn that Peter had a wife when Jesus healed his mother-in-law. In those ancient times, a Jewish man receives a wife after the age of 18. Again, no other disciples’ wives are mentioned, so they are unmarried and probably under 18.

Jewish children began intensive study at young ages, but education for most concluded by age 15. For those bright (or wealthy) enough, higher education consisted of studying under a local rabbi. If they didn’t find a rabbi that accepted them as a student then they entered the workforce by their mid teens. The disciples, already working-men, must have been rejected by other rabbis when Jesus hand-picked them for further education as his disciples. In light of this, a younger age is more probable than older. A youth would be in the mindset of continuing his education. A man over 30 leaving his trade to follow a rabbi would be counter-cultural , although not impossible.

The behavior of the disciples, as detailed in the gospels, fits well with the zealous nature and foolishness of adolescence. Picture a gang of teens instead of work-hardened men in the boat when the storm hit, fear-stricken and waking up Jesus for help. The forgetful and distracted nature of youth helps me understand how they could hear Jesus say he would die and come back to life, yet act as they did when these things happened. When we age them under twenty, we can understand Jesus’ patience with them, his low expectations of their behavior, and his teaching style.

This post has been edited by Sophiera: Jun 21 2017, 05:35 PM
giao1vien
post Jun 21 2017, 07:05 PM

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THANK YOU
SHARES GOOD
TSunknown warrior
post Jun 21 2017, 07:41 PM

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QUOTE(giao1vien @ Jun 21 2017, 07:05 PM)
THANK YOU
SHARES GOOD
*
welcome.


Interesting share @Sophiera.
TSunknown warrior
post Jun 23 2017, 11:50 AM

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Daddy God

Romans 8:15 (NIV) - The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father."

The word "Live in fear again" is not referring to fearing a snake or a spider but the context is fearing God.

The meaning of adoption to sonship here is referring to mature sons because of the dispensation of Grace. Those who are under Law are baby sons....or infants. God's Grace is higher than the Law of God. Which are you under?

The Holy Spirit here refuse to translate the Title of the revelation of God as anything else but "Abba". The word Abba is equivalent to "Daddy" or "Papa" which has the same meaning.

The idea is closeness and family kin which only sons inherit. This is the revelation. Why I share this is because there are voices out there who wants to impose a "distance" God...where there is still a sense of separation, God on Throne while we are still trying to earn his love. These are the cultic voice that tries to put God on the same platform as all other religion, a fearful & vengeful god as some tries to exhibit.

There are many names which God is known in the past like El-Shaddai, Elohim, Jehovah Tsidkenu, but Jesus came to reveal the greatest revelation of God which is " Abba" or Daddy. Yes God is the judge of all things, He may be the great judge on the throne but he is your Daddy God who loves you intensely and runs to you before you take that first step!

Don't let anyone take that revelation away from you.

God Bless.



tinarhian
post Jun 23 2017, 11:20 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jun 19 2017, 08:56 AM)
You're talking about abused, I'm talking about God prospering his people, across the border. 2 different matters.

your concern is legitimate but that does not mean we should stop the truth of scripture, If God does indeed prosper then that is the truth.

Why do you need to confound the 2 and make it wrong? If the act of abusing, that is wrong, then address and attend to that specific matter of abused. Don't just because there is abused, you completely stop the truth of what God does. Don't you think that is wrong too?
*
I belived that God does prosper some of us Christians; not necessarily all of us though. But maybe what we don't want to hear is from prosperity gospel preachers are their exploitative message / sermons that mentioned about sacrificial tithe giving that could jeopardize these common people of their own financial sacrifice.

Besides these prosperity preachers sounded like MLM. dry.gif
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post Jun 24 2017, 08:58 AM

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QUOTE(tinarhian @ Jun 23 2017, 11:20 PM)
I belived that God does prosper some of us Christians; not necessarily all of us though. But maybe what we don't want to hear is from prosperity gospel preachers are their exploitative message / sermons that mentioned about sacrificial tithe giving that could jeopardize these common people of their own financial sacrifice.

Besides these prosperity preachers sounded like MLM.  dry.gif
*
There you go again. The recycle argument. You talking about something else, I'm talking about something else.

Would appreciate if you learn to focus. Thank you.
Sophiera
post Jun 24 2017, 09:11 AM

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Guys i have a serious question hat bothered me for years.

http://crochecottage.tumblr.com/post/16217...lacktones/embed

How do you convince or talk to people who had a lifelong abuse from Christians? Either as a church, a family, or in school?

They don't believe God is love. They see Him as an abuser. Since they don't believe in any love exists from Jesus or Christians, how do we even approach?
TSunknown warrior
post Jun 24 2017, 09:26 AM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Jun 24 2017, 09:11 AM)
Guys i have a serious question hat bothered me for years.

http://crochecottage.tumblr.com/post/16217...lacktones/embed

How do you convince or talk to people who had a lifelong abuse from Christians? Either as a church, a family, or in school?

They don't believe God is love. They see Him as an abuser. Since they don't believe in any love exists from Jesus or Christians, how do we even approach?
*
You be the example but do it under the power and grace of Father God. Pray for the Holy Spirit to work through you before engaging.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jun 24 2017, 09:27 AM
TSunknown warrior
post Jun 26 2017, 10:28 AM

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When Life isn't Fair, wait patiently for the Lord

Psalms 37

1 Do not fret because of those who are evil
or be envious of those who do wrong;
2 for like the grass they will soon wither,
like green plants they will soon die away.
3 Trust in the Lord and do good;
dwell in the land and enjoy safe pasture.
4 Take delight in the Lord,
and he will give you the desires of your heart.
5 Commit your way to the Lord;
trust in him and he will do this:
6 He will make your righteous reward shine like the dawn,
your vindication like the noonday sun.
7 Be still before the Lord
and wait patiently for him;
do not fret when people succeed in their ways,
when they carry out their wicked schemes.
8 Refrain from anger and turn from wrath;
do not fret—it leads only to evil.
9 For those who are evil will be destroyed,
but those who hope in the Lord will inherit the land.
10 A little while, and the wicked will be no more;
though you look for them, they will not be found.
11 But the meek will inherit the land
and enjoy peace and prosperity.
12 The wicked plot against the righteous
and gnash their teeth at them;
13 but the Lord laughs at the wicked,
for he knows their day is coming.



God's solution when life is unfair and there are enemies who are against you. These are the things you can practice.

1. Don't Fret
2. Trust in God and continue to do good
3. Delight in the Lord
4. Commit your way to God
5. Be still before God
6. Refrain from anger & turn from wrath


God Bless.
myway1985
post Jun 26 2017, 04:41 PM

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Prayers need..

Prospect : me, Isaac Lee
Reason : high fever on n off for 4 days... bacteria infections... sleep n wake up every 1hr

Taking medicine now

Thanks

This post has been edited by myway1985: Jun 26 2017, 04:43 PM
skydrake
post Jun 26 2017, 06:09 PM

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QUOTE(myway1985 @ Jun 26 2017, 04:41 PM)
Prayers need..

Prospect  : me, Isaac Lee
Reason : high fever on n off for 4 days... bacteria infections... sleep n wake up every 1hr

Taking medicine now

Thanks
*
remember to get blood test for dengue if u haven't tested yet.
myway1985
post Jun 26 2017, 06:54 PM

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QUOTE(skydrake @ Jun 26 2017, 06:09 PM)
remember to get blood test for dengue if u haven't tested yet.
*
done de... bacteria fever...dengue i not so scare
Sophiera
post Jun 26 2017, 06:58 PM

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Praying that you'll be okay. Amen.
skydrake
post Jun 26 2017, 07:07 PM

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QUOTE(myway1985 @ Jun 26 2017, 06:54 PM)
done de... bacteria fever...dengue i not so scare
*
I got it infected once, can't even eat.. whateva i tried to eat all vomited out. at least u did the blood test for dengue. pray together n fight hard!
myway1985
post Jun 26 2017, 07:11 PM

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QUOTE(skydrake @ Jun 26 2017, 07:07 PM)
I got it infected once, can't even eat.. whateva i tried to eat all vomited out. at least u did the blood test for dengue. pray together n fight hard!
*
wat make me most angry is government hospital giv out the most mild grade medicine....

39 degree high fever n they only giv panadol...got wat shit use i dunno...
TSunknown warrior
post Jun 26 2017, 08:53 PM

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QUOTE(myway1985 @ Jun 26 2017, 04:41 PM)
Prayers need..

Prospect  : me, Isaac Lee
Reason : high fever on n off for 4 days... bacteria infections... sleep n wake up every 1hr

Taking medicine now

Thanks
*
I'll keep you in prayer, Isaac.

God Bless.
skydrake
post Jun 26 2017, 09:55 PM

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QUOTE(myway1985 @ Jun 26 2017, 07:11 PM)
wat make me most angry is government hospital giv out the most mild grade medicine....

39 degree high fever n they only giv panadol...got wat shit use i dunno...
*
do u have thermostat to check ur temperature? update us when u getting better. rest more, drink 100 plus it will keep u hydrated.
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post Jun 27 2017, 10:29 AM

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Old Covenant kills New Covenant gives Life

2 Corinthians 3:6 (NIV) - He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

What is the New Covenant? The Covenant is the Covenant of Grace! IN fact the gospel is called the Gospel of Grace!. And God backup ministers who preach Grace, not only that God gives competency (much more in the Gospel).
Those who preach doom and gloom belongs to the Old Covenant. Those who preach the Law, bringing in demands to people belong to the a covenant that Kills!.
There are voices out there who are against ministry of Grace in this forum and they do not understand what they are against. But those who preach Grace will have God's support in the ministry.

According to 2 Corinthians 3:9, the New Covenant of Grace gives righteousness that is far glorious than the old. Why? Because under the old, righteousness depends on our performance (covenant that kills) while under the New it's given to you as a gift and unmerited through Faith which brings life! Only when you are bestowed righteousness, the Holy Spirit can come in and reside in you. Only when you are bestowed righteousness, your prayers avails much!

The covenant of Grace is about LIVING! and LIFE guided by the Holy Spirit! The Holy Spirit will guide us in our life, in every aspect, whether in business, in studies, at home or at school. The Holy Spirit can open doors that is good for us and closes doors of opportunity that is bad. When the Holy ask us to forgive an enemy, He is teaching us to be free in Life because those who holds a grudge do not know, they're under bondage to bitterness...it affects the decision making, the health, etc.

Under the covenant of Grace, we can ask for God's Grace to be in every aspect of our life. What is Grace? Grace means unmerited favor of God and it is for the undeserving. If you feel, you have not measure up before God, then you qualify to receive God's Favor without any merit. The more you see you do not measure up, the more you qualify. God's Grace can turn unfavorable circumstance to favorable circumstance. I have witnessed this so many times and can testify this is true.

Under the New Covenant, we can be rest assured God is for us and not against us. God can turn and orchestrate every even (good and bad) for our good. Enemies who comes against your life will be under the orchestration of God to be changed for our good. Under the New Covenant, no weapon formed against us will prosper!

2 Corinthians 5:21, God made Jesus who has no sin to be sin for us..this means that all our sins are imparted to Christ. ALL of it. While Jesus Righteousness is given to us in exchange! If there is any sin left unpunished or one that is hidden unconfessed, Christ cannot be resurrected to Life. Think about it, How can Christ be raised to Life, if sin in our life is not accounted for? How glorious is this Covenant of Grace. It is a complete Salvation.

Under the New Covenant, your Salvation is the work of God. When God works, it is divine. We may fail but God NEVER Fails. As long as our Faith is in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, it is a blessed assurance meaning something that God guarantees! I believe when we look to Grace, Grace will bring us Home unhindered...even of our failings.

So dear Friends...Breath Easy and start living under the New Covenant. Do not allow voices to rob you of the New Covenant of Grace, there is so much to discover and learn. God willing, I will expound more and more of this blessed Grace.

God Bless



Sophiera
post Jun 27 2017, 05:52 PM

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UW in response to your devotional i want to ask... Who're the Orthodox? How are they different from Catholics?

Lately the Reddit got guys saying Orthodox is the only say, the sola scriptura is false doctrine, Protestants are going to hell ect ect. And I'm like, who are even these people rclxub.gif?

Everyone tell him to chill of course. But i still have no idea why they're called Orthodox and us Hetrodox. Why are they different?

Also there's always one guy saying nobody is sure of their salvation until they die. Is that a Catholic idea?


TSunknown warrior
post Jun 27 2017, 06:05 PM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Jun 27 2017, 05:52 PM)
UW in response to your devotional i want to ask... Who're the Orthodox? How are they different from Catholics?

Lately the Reddit got guys saying Orthodox is the only say, the sola scriptura is false doctrine, Protestants are going to hell ect ect. And I'm like, who are even these people rclxub.gif?

Everyone tell him to chill of course. But i still have no idea why they're called Orthodox and us Hetrodox. Why are they different?

Also there's always one guy saying nobody is sure of their salvation until they die. Is that a Catholic idea?
*
Orthodox believes they're the original Church that has sacred tradition passed down from the apostles.

Anyone can say their denomination is the only way while others are false....we should never play the role of Heaven's Gate keeper.

Jesus alone has that right. So never bother if any Man or Woman says things like this, bother what the Bible says....If Jesus Christ is the one who gives Life and Salvation has saved you, who has that right to deny the gift of Salvation given to you?

Answer is..No one, just Man with his presumptions.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jun 27 2017, 06:10 PM
Sophiera
post Jun 27 2017, 08:50 PM

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Kesian. That guy lawan people for no reason then...
TSunknown warrior
post Jun 27 2017, 09:43 PM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Jun 27 2017, 08:50 PM)
Kesian. That guy lawan people for no reason then...
*
Let us not waste time talking about other people but to spend time talking about our Lord Jesus Christ. smile.gif
Sophiera
post Jun 27 2017, 09:46 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jun 27 2017, 09:43 PM)
Let us not waste time talking about other people but to spend time talking about our Lord Jesus Christ.  smile.gif
*
Betul

Ah for those who have paypal money, there's this charity that gives directly to people in need. I'll paste the link here if anyone's interested.

https://www.givedirectly.org/


This post has been edited by Sophiera: Jun 27 2017, 09:49 PM
TSunknown warrior
post Jun 27 2017, 09:53 PM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Jun 27 2017, 09:46 PM)
Betul

Ah for those who have paypal money, there's this charity that gives directly to people in need. I'll paste the link here if anyone's interested.

https://www.givedirectly.org/
*
I still think we're on the right track and God is watching over us...our fellowship. icon_rolleyes.gif
Sophiera
post Jun 27 2017, 11:21 PM

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I wonder if myway is okay now...
thomasthai
post Jun 28 2017, 11:40 AM

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I think it's time wasting to argue with non-believers on the bible. The unregenerate has no hope of ever seeing the truth.

Just like to encourage believers on the accuracy of the scripture:

http://patternsofevidence.com

Think I have mentioned this here before, we are seeing more archaeological evidences of the events in the bible.

The director is making another doco on moses, cant't wait.

This post has been edited by thomasthai: Jun 28 2017, 11:43 AM
TSunknown warrior
post Jun 28 2017, 11:45 AM

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QUOTE(thomasthai @ Jun 28 2017, 11:40 AM)
I think it's time wasting to argue with non-believers on the bible. The unregenerate has no hope of ever seeing the truth.

Just like to encourage believers on the accuracy of the scripture:

http://patternsofevidence.com

Think I have mentioned this here before, we are seeing more archaeological evidences of the events in the bible.

The director is make another doco on moses, cant't wait.
*
We're not suppose to argue with them, just share and leave it to their discretion.

I think what happened is beyond arguing but...... end up throwing punches like a bar fight, laugh.gif
TSunknown warrior
post Jun 29 2017, 08:53 AM

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Where does sin gets its strength from?


Romans 7:8 (NIV) - But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead.

When you preach the Law or when you put demands on believers, "you must do this or do that to appease God", this is like adding wood to fire where the act of sin will explode. There is no stopping it when Law is magnified.

We all think that the works of the devil is synonym with things prostitutes, murderers, robbery....true as it maybe but those are not the greatest deception. Those are the works of lower minions of the evil one. The greatest deception of the devil are the works behind the pulpit. He'll come to you as an angel of light, preaching strongly on the Law. There are some sermons you hardly hear the blood of Jesus or about Jesus preached.

2 Corinthians 11:14 tells us in the KJV

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

The word End there in the Greek is "telos" which means that the preaching's purpose or goal is according to "works".

Why?

Because the devil knows Romans 7:8. Apart from the Law, sin was dead but the flipside will be true, Expound on the Law, Sin comes alive. That is why whenever you hear people saying "you must be righteous before God hears your prayer" are the preaching of the Law..where Satan can use to put people in bondage, as we have evidently encounter in this forum, the spirit behind it.

The only antidote to this is to move away from the Law as much as possible and look to Grace. Complete and abundance Grace is the only power that God has given to the believer for freedom.

Why?

Because Grace dismantle all qualification. It causes you to be vulnerable to God's mercy and goodness and that is something good! Why? Because in there, the devil cannot get you and God is able to hold you completely. I pray the Holy Spirit will give you this revelation.

God Bless.



Sophiera
post Jun 29 2017, 06:39 PM

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Ha, i remember reading that one of the bad teachings had the term "Golawsple" because it's enphasis on the law. I'll share the bigger list when I get on pc.

edit: wait I got it wrong

http://www.christsiouxfalls.org/index.php/...=50:listeners-..

Check this page out. Very interesting stuff. Thoughts about it?

This post has been edited by Sophiera: Jun 29 2017, 07:09 PM
TSunknown warrior
post Jun 29 2017, 08:20 PM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Jun 29 2017, 06:39 PM)
Ha, i remember reading that one of the bad teachings had the term "Golawsple" because it's enphasis on the law. I'll share the bigger list when I get on pc.

edit: wait I got it wrong

http://www.christsiouxfalls.org/index.php/...=50:listeners-..

Check this page out. Very interesting stuff. Thoughts about it?
*
The preaching of Christ death and resurrection should result in transformed lives of the believers (any and every aspect, be it healing, deliverance, miracles, etc) otherwise people can say it's just "theoretical religion". As such, testimony of the believers life are equally important as they dismantle and defeat voices and ideology of Satan. (Revelation 12:11)

I think this is where I differ from most other teachers.

As what was written in the link and as mostly taught conventionally the key message focus on the believer of repenting from their sins where I stress on the remissions of sin by the work of Christ.

One focus on self while I try to engage the believer to focus on what Christ did. His blood separated our sins. I believe we need to acknowledge we are sinners but after accepting Christ, the main focus is geared more towards how perfect the work of Christ over our sins and that we are made righteous in Christ. The focus is on the beauty that God has made us in Christ.

But some preachers loves to make believers to always feel dirty and sin conscious..to me that is dishonoring what Christ did and magnifying the work of Adam more than Christ. It's like what Christ did never took off and never really changed the person. That is their mindset which (to me) belongs to the OT covenant preaching. NT is about Christ has delivered us not WIP trying to deliver us.

This is what I believe caused so much argument and hatred towards what I preached and have resulted in another thread created.

They do not understand this revelation.




Sophiera
post Jun 30 2017, 06:29 PM

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Today's prayer had something that confuses me. It's from Psalm 107

23 Some went down to the sea in ships *
and plied their trade in deep waters;
24 They beheld the works of the LORD *
and his wonders in the deep.
25 Then he spoke, and a stormy wind arose, *
which tossed high the waves of the sea.
26 They mounted up to the heavens and fell back to the depths; *
their hearts melted because of their peril.
27 They reeled and staggered like drunkards *
and were at their wits' end.
28 Then they cried to the LORD in their trouble, *
and he delivered them from their distress.
29 He stilled the storm to a whisper *
and quieted the waves of the sea.
30 Then were they glad because of the calm, *
and he brought them to the harbor they were bound for.
31 Let them give thanks to the LORD for his mercy *
and the wonders he does for his children

Did God cause a storm to demonstrate his saving grace instead of preventing it? If a human tried to cause trouble to show their good later, it would have been called a conspiracy. So i don't get what this means.
TSunknown warrior
post Jun 30 2017, 06:46 PM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Jun 30 2017, 06:29 PM)
Today's prayer had something that confuses me. It's from Psalm 107

23  Some went down to the sea in ships *
and plied their trade in deep waters;
24  They beheld the works of the LORD *
and his wonders in the deep.
25  Then he spoke, and a stormy wind arose, *
which tossed high the waves of the sea.
26  They mounted up to the heavens and fell back to the depths; *
their hearts melted because of their peril.
27  They reeled and staggered like drunkards *
and were at their wits' end.
28  Then they cried to the LORD in their trouble, *
and he delivered them from their distress.
29  He stilled the storm to a whisper *
and quieted the waves of the sea.
30  Then were they glad because of the calm, *
and he brought them to the harbor they were bound for.
31  Let them give thanks to the LORD for his mercy *
and the wonders he does for his children

Did God cause a storm to demonstrate his saving grace instead of preventing it? If a human tried to cause trouble to show their good later, it would have been called a conspiracy. So i don't get what this means.
*
Rule of the thumb to always remember..under the Old Covenant, people are judged by their deeds against God's Law, failure to obey would bring wrath while the flip side of obedience will bring blessings.

Psalm 107 was most likely written by King David, depicting the lives of Israelite. If you read verse 11...


11 because they rebelled against God’s commands
and despised the plans of the Most High.

You'll get the idea why they're subject to punishment. But despite of their disobedience God was merciful to still love them and rescue them from their own iniquity. By right a just God would mete out Just punishment but the fact the God still rescues them...show the Grace and Mercy of a loving God.

Sophiera
post Jun 30 2017, 07:12 PM

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Oh i see. Skeptics and ex Christians always bring up the OT as their proof that God is cruel. So knowing the context is comforting.

Another question to ask

https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comme...comment/djlitdn

I think this commenter going out of a limb? Whatever i studied of the NT, isn't Church all members of the body of Christ? Of course they support community and encourage people to come together. But to say not going to Church as a building or group makes you not Christian... Seems to me is totally off the mark.

The sole requirement should be the blood of Jesus Christ.
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 1 2017, 08:11 AM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Jun 30 2017, 07:12 PM)
Oh i see. Skeptics and ex Christians always bring up the OT as their proof that God is cruel. So knowing the context is comforting.

Another question to ask

https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comme...comment/djlitdn

I think this commenter going out of a limb? Whatever i studied of the NT, isn't Church all members of the body of Christ? Of course they support community and encourage people to come together. But to say not going to Church as a building or group makes you not Christian... Seems to me is totally off the mark.

The sole requirement should be the blood of Jesus Christ.
*
There are people who can't come to Church because of health reasons. Then what does that makes them?

Just ignore those sort of comments.

As long as the person keeps the relationship with Christ alive and well, continue to trust what Christ has done for the person, follows the command to love one another, don't see why He/She cannot qualify to be a Christian.
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post Jul 1 2017, 09:26 AM

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sceptics like atheists are welcome to come and witness.



30th June, 1July & 2nd July at Kelana Jaya stadium

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 1 2017, 09:27 AM


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Sophiera
post Jul 1 2017, 08:08 PM

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Oh man, all that animated illustration! biggrin.gif
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 1 2017, 09:27 PM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Jul 1 2017, 08:08 PM)


Oh man, all that animated illustration! biggrin.gif
*
Ancient Jewish Literature helps to give insight...for example, David buried Goliath Head on mount Golgotha which is where the same location Christ was crucified.

Goliath symbolize Satan. Christ cross crushed his head symbolically.




Carlo J
post Jul 2 2017, 09:03 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 1 2017, 09:26 AM)


sceptics like atheists are welcome to come and witness.
30th June, 1July & 2nd July at Kelana Jaya stadium
*
Anyone went for this?
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 3 2017, 08:29 AM

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QUOTE(Carlo J @ Jul 2 2017, 09:03 PM)
Anyone went for this?
*
This many people...sea of multitude.

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TSunknown warrior
post Jul 3 2017, 08:37 AM

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New Event.


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Carlo J
post Jul 3 2017, 08:37 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 3 2017, 08:29 AM)
This many people...sea of multitude.
*
Wow, I only saw the pics my church members and friends uploaded but the aerial view.

Glad to see miracles performed and souls saved during this rally.

Praise the Lord!
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 3 2017, 08:40 AM

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QUOTE(Carlo J @ Jul 3 2017, 08:37 AM)
Wow, I only saw the pics my church members and friends uploaded but the aerial view.

Glad to see miracles performed and souls saved during this rally.

Praise the Lord!
*
thumbup.gif

We have been given the grace of Faith and the spirit of believe in the miracles and power of our Lord Jesus.




This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 3 2017, 08:59 AM
desmond2020
post Jul 3 2017, 09:09 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 1 2017, 09:26 AM)


sceptics like atheists are welcome to come and witness.
30th June, 1July & 2nd July at Kelana Jaya stadium
*
This Maldonado is co founder of king Jesus ministry and mega church in Miami?


Not that I don't believe God miracle to heal, just that I don't believe it will come via a fake teacher who called himself 'apostle' and preach a rather extreme version of prosperity gospel.

This post has been edited by desmond2020: Jul 3 2017, 09:12 AM
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 3 2017, 09:13 AM

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QUOTE(desmond2020 @ Jul 3 2017, 09:09 AM)
This Maldonado is co founder of king Jesus ministry and mega church in Miami?
Not that I don't believe God miracle to heal, just that I don't believe it will come via a fake teacher who called himself 'apostle' and preach a rather extreme version of property gospel.
*
What did he say about prosperity?


desmond2020
post Jul 3 2017, 09:28 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 3 2017, 09:13 AM)
What did he say about prosperity?
*
For example he preach you can 'activate' God's word and the power of 'redemption' by honoring God with Your first fruit of income. He said, fasting of the first fruit has the power of multiplication... every time you honour God first.... God will say that his money, his finance is protected because he honor the God first


Which is entirely unbiblical
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 3 2017, 09:35 AM

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QUOTE(desmond2020 @ Jul 3 2017, 09:28 AM)
For example he preach you can 'activate' God's word and the power of 'redemption' by honoring God with Your first fruit of income. He said, fasting of the first fruit has the power of multiplication... every time you honour God first.... God will say that his money, his finance is protected because he honor the God first
Which is entirely unbiblical
*
Okay, then.....What is Proverbs 3:9-10?


desmond2020
post Jul 3 2017, 09:42 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 3 2017, 09:35 AM)
Okay, then.....What is Proverbs 3:9-10?
*
I believe you need to read the whole chapter

The emphasis is to fear God and seek wisdom


My son, do not forget my teaching, but let your heart keep my commandments, for length of days and years of life and peace they will add to you. Let not steadfast love and faithfulness forsake you; bind them around your neck; write them on the tablet of your heart. So you will find favor and good success in the sight of God and man. Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths. Be not wise in your own eyes; fear the Lord , and turn away from evil. It will be healing to your flesh and refreshment to your bones. Honor the Lord with your wealth and with the firstfruits of all your produce; then your barns will be filled with plenty, and your vats will be bursting with wine. My son, do not despise the Lord 's discipline or be weary of his reproof, for the Lord reproves him whom he loves, as a father the son in whom he delights. Blessed is the one who finds wisdom, and the one who gets understanding, for the gain from her is better than gain from silver and her profit better than gold. She is more precious than jewels, and nothing you desire can compare with her. Long life is in her right hand; in her left hand are riches and honor. Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace. She is a tree of life to those who lay hold of her; those who hold her fast are called blessed. The Lord by wisdom founded the earth; by understanding he established the heavens; by his knowledge the deeps broke open, and the clouds drop down the dew. My son, do not lose sight of these— keep sound wisdom and discretion, and they will be life for your soul and adornment for your neck. Then you will walk on your way securely, and your foot will not stumble. If you lie down, you will not be afraid; when you lie down, your sleep will be sweet. Do not be afraid of sudden terror or of the ruin of the wicked, when it comes, for the Lord will be your confidence and will keep your foot from being caught. Do not withhold good from those to whom it is due, when it is in your power to do it. Do not say to your neighbor, "Go, and come again, tomorrow I will give it"—when you have it with you. Do not plan evil against your neighbor, who dwells trustingly beside you. Do not contend with a man for no reason, when he has done you no harm. Do not envy a man of violence and do not choose any of his ways, for the devious person is an abomination to the Lord , but the upright are in his confidence. The Lord 's curse is on the house of the wicked, but he blesses the dwelling of the righteous. Toward the scorners he is scornful, but to the humble he gives favor. The wise will inherit honor, but fools get disgrace.
Proverbs 3:1‭-‬35 ESV
http://bible.com/59/pro.3.1-35.ESV
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 3 2017, 09:46 AM

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QUOTE(desmond2020 @ Jul 3 2017, 09:42 AM)
I believe you need to read the whole chapter

The emphasis is to fear God and seek wisdom
My son, do not forget my teaching, but let your heart keep my commandments, for length of days and years of life and peace they will add to you. Let not steadfast love and faithfulness forsake you; bind them around your neck; write them on the tablet of your heart. So you will find favor and good success in the sight of God and man. Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths. Be not wise in your own eyes; fear the Lord , and turn away from evil. It will be healing to your flesh and refreshment to your bones. Honor the Lord with your wealth and with the firstfruits of all your produce; then your barns will be filled with plenty, and your vats will be bursting with wine. My son, do not despise the Lord 's discipline or be weary of his reproof, for the Lord reproves him whom he loves, as a father the son in whom he delights. Blessed is the one who finds wisdom, and the one who gets understanding, for the gain from her is better than gain from silver and her profit better than gold. She is more precious than jewels, and nothing you desire can compare with her. Long life is in her right hand; in her left hand are riches and honor. Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace. She is a tree of life to those who lay hold of her; those who hold her fast are called blessed. The Lord by wisdom founded the earth; by understanding he established the heavens; by his knowledge the deeps broke open, and the clouds drop down the dew. My son, do not lose sight of these— keep sound wisdom and discretion, and they will be life for your soul and adornment for your neck. Then you will walk on your way securely, and your foot will not stumble. If you lie down, you will not be afraid; when you lie down, your sleep will be sweet. Do not be afraid of sudden terror or of the ruin of the wicked, when it comes, for the Lord will be your confidence and will keep your foot from being caught. Do not withhold good from those to whom it is due, when it is in your power to do it. Do not say to your neighbor, "Go, and come again, tomorrow I will give it"—when you have it with you. Do not plan evil against your neighbor, who dwells trustingly beside you. Do not contend with a man for no reason, when he has done you no harm. Do not envy a man of violence and do not choose any of his ways, for the devious person is an abomination to the Lord , but the upright are in his confidence. The Lord 's curse is on the house of the wicked, but he blesses the dwelling of the righteous. Toward the scorners he is scornful, but to the humble he gives favor. The wise will inherit honor, but fools get disgrace.
Proverbs 3:1‭-‬35 ESV
http://bible.com/59/pro.3.1-35.ESV
*
Correct we need to fear God and seek wisdom, isn't this proverb a wisdom? Even verse 9-10 of chapter 3? You cannot disregard what it says there.....

For me I don't pick and choose which one, I take all of it. But even then..Verse 9 and 10 states....

that God promise to supply more than enough...to be filled with plenty...that is multiplication, no matter how I want to twist or turn it's definition, that is what it says.

Are we at the liberty to choose which verse apply and which doesn't when it comes to wisdom?

Edit:...I think we can..but does that negate it's truth? hmm.gif

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 3 2017, 09:53 AM
BlueTicket
post Jul 3 2017, 09:48 AM

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Hi,

Can you pls answer questions as below:

1) y God ask Saul to kill soldiers, men, women, children, infants and even animals in Samuel? Soldiers i understand because they are enemies but y other innocent beings?

2) y Abraham's nephew's wife become salt just looking back how the angels destroyed the city? Like what is the purpose of turning her to be salt? The only reason is probably disobedience bcoz angel asked them not to look back but why does it matter? and even it does, why turn to her to salt bcoz who not surprised/shocked and turn their head naturally bcoz suddenly got very loud explosion?

3) why jesus didnt say anything in old testament? He's god and was there since beginning of the time, right? why he didnt say anything like god to moses and other prophets? basically he seems like not there until new testament come and said he is there. why god didn't mention jesus and he got a son in old testament?

4) read some christianity thread in other thread and some christian themselves said xxx version of bible is better than some yyy version. some even said some verses aren't in yyy or zzz version and tats why xxx version is the best. In that case, why do u still think bible is reliable bcoz didnt this already fit wat muslims say bible has been altered?

so far these are the questions wat i can think of. probably i will ask more when i read more of the bible.

tq

This post has been edited by BlueTicket: Jul 3 2017, 09:49 AM
desmond2020
post Jul 3 2017, 09:52 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 3 2017, 09:46 AM)
Correct we need to fear God and seek wisdom, isn't this proverb a wisdom? Even verse 9-10 of chapter 3? You cannot disregard what it says there.....

For me I don't pick and choose which one, I take all of it. But even then..Verse 9 and 10 states....

that God promise to supply more than enough...to be filled with plenty...that is multiplication, no matter how I want to twist or turn it's definition, that is what it says.

Are we at the liberty to choose which verse apply and which doesn't?
*
I believe you get the priority wrong because we should fear God and based on principle that everything we own is from God. So when we do offering we merely give back portion of what God give us.


Jesus teach us to give and hope nothing in return


And therefore cornerstone is to fear God as if you fear God you wouldn't hope for return from you offering by treating God like you atm machine


Blessing of God is always bountiful but it is not always in form of money




TSunknown warrior
post Jul 3 2017, 09:54 AM

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QUOTE(desmond2020 @ Jul 3 2017, 09:52 AM)
I believe you get the priority wrong because we should fear God and based on principle that everything we own is from God. So when we do offering we merely give back portion of what God give us.
Jesus teach us to give and hope nothing in return***
And therefore cornerstone is to fear God as if you fear God you wouldn't hope for return from you offering by treating God like you atm machine
Blessing of God is always bountiful but it is not always in form of money
*
Which verse did Jesus say that?

Did He say that when we give towards our fellow neighbors?enemies(human) or towards God?

As far as I can find...most likely you took this from

Luke 6:35 (NIV) - But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.

The irony is....Jesus tells us to expect nothing from a fellow human being (granted) but Jesus never says to expect nothing from God. In fact the irony is that God will reward us great. Can you tell that to God almighty, that you expect nothing from Him when this verse says "Great will be the reward"?

I think this fearing God in tying to expect nothing from God is like worshipping a fearful God which is not how Jesus depict as a Father. The Father that Jesus revealed is one who celebrates with a fatten calf and put shows and ring on our finger as his child.

Don't get angry with me but I think this doctrine of "fearing God and expect nothing from God" is not biblical because the Bible tells otherwise and if you say we should fear God then we need to accept what God says in Proverbs 3:9-10. Else it's a contradiction.

**

I also understand your concern where we need to have a proper reverence for God and not treat God like an ATM machine but if God's own word says He will cause our barns to overflow...who are we to reject God's own saying? You're like saying we need to fear God and yet reject his word of promise as well which is a contradiction, imo.

For me, a proper reverence for God is also to accept his blessings, acknowledging we need it and not reject it because we think we can handle life. God never says to expect nothing from Him, Jesus was careful to point it that we are to expect nothing in return from our enemies...Never from God. We need to be clear and accurate on this.


This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 3 2017, 11:58 AM
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 3 2017, 10:04 AM

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True, not every reward is about money but to "not expect reward from God" and to "expect nothing" is a form of self righteousness...meaning to say you can carve out life on your own. You can handle life on your own, you don't need God's reward or grace or providence....That to me....is very self righteous. Truth to be told.....we need God in every area of our live, for some people..it's strength, for others health...for some it's finance. I think it's not right to tell others to Not expect anything from God because God is the one who is all sufficient and needs nothing when we are the one who are in need of everything which only God can fulfill.


To propagate, just give and expect nothing from God is like saying, God I don't need you because I can stand on my own in life. That is relying on self strength which as far as I know..God hates.



Matthew 7:11 (NIV)- If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! (This verse tells me God loves to give good gift if you ask, this is far from anything to imply to expect nothing because "doctrines' teach us God doesn't necessarily want to give you, this verse debunks that idea.)

Hebrews 11:6 (NIV) - And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. (This verse tells me Faith MUST believe God rewards those who seeks Him..hence to expect reward IS BIBLICAL. *Note I'm not talking about money but I'm talking about "expecting reward from God", the expectancy is biblical)


Another question to ask...Is it wrong to expect nothing from God? My answer is no, nothing wrong but also...don't criticize others when other people are blessed abundantly as cult or heretic, as it would not be fair to enforce what you believe in on others who needs God deliverance from their place of lack.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 3 2017, 11:47 AM
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 3 2017, 11:45 AM

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QUOTE(BlueTicket @ Jul 3 2017, 09:48 AM)
Hi,

Can you pls answer questions as below:

1) y God ask Saul to kill soldiers, men, women, children, infants and even animals in Samuel? Soldiers i understand because they are enemies but y other innocent beings?

2) y Abraham's nephew's wife become salt just looking back how the angels destroyed the city? Like what is the purpose of turning her to be salt? The only reason is probably disobedience bcoz angel asked them not to look back but why does it matter? and even it does, why turn to her to salt bcoz who not surprised/shocked and turn their head naturally  bcoz suddenly got very loud explosion?

3) why jesus didnt say anything in old testament? He's god and was there since beginning of the time, right? why he didnt say anything like god to moses and other prophets? basically he seems like not there until new testament come and said he is there. why god didn't mention jesus and he got a son in old testament?

4) read some christianity thread in other thread and some christian themselves said xxx version of bible is better than some yyy version. some even said some verses aren't in yyy or zzz version and tats why xxx version is the best. In that case, why do u still think bible is reliable bcoz didnt this already fit wat muslims say bible has been altered?

so far these are the questions wat i can think of. probably i will ask more when i read more of the bible.

tq
*
1.
God alone has the right to dispense Life and Death, secondly God has an eternal view of things, what He does is always according to his omniscience knowledge.

We may accuse God of being evil to dispense destruction on infants and animal but bear in mind, that is according to our limited knowledge and understanding.
God commanded Saul to destroy everything of the Amalekites because of their long feud and hatred of the Jews and their repeated attempts to destroy God’s people.
Infants may grow up to take revenge and continue the feud. Animals are destroyed possible because of being abomination sacrificed to their gods which from Bible POV are no gods but demons.

2.
Don't know, why Salt.

3. In Genesis, God said "let us.." Us there is plural. Jesus was never revealed in the Old Testament plainly because He was set to be Saviour after time took it's course for Man to try on their own performance.

4. Yes I do think the Bible is reliable regardless of translation. Translation is to help us understand better hence why there are many translations. the authenticity of the Bible is not because of these translations but because there are thousands of copies of the original manuscript known as dead seas scrolls. The translation version translate from these manuscripts. How to know which is accurate and which is not? Look at all the versions, it's readily available online. All of them. Compare them to the hebrew and greek.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 3 2017, 11:52 AM
BlueTicket
post Jul 3 2017, 12:11 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 3 2017, 11:45 AM)
1.
God alone has the right to dispense Life and Death, secondly God has an eternal view of things, what He does is always according to his omniscience knowledge.

We may accuse God of being evil to dispense destruction on infants and animal but bear in mind, that is according to our limited knowledge and understanding.
God commanded Saul to destroy everything of the Amalekites because of their long feud and hatred of the Jews and their repeated attempts to destroy God’s people.
Infants may grow up to take revenge and continue the feud. Animals are destroyed possible because of being abomination sacrificed to their gods which from Bible POV are no gods but demons.

2.
Don't know, why Salt.

3. In Genesis, God said "let us.." Us there is plural. Jesus was never revealed in the Old Testament plainly because He was set to be Saviour after time took it's course for Man to try on their own performance.

4. Yes I do think the Bible is reliable regardless of translation. Translation is to help us understand better hence why there are many translations. the authenticity of the Bible is not because of these translations but because there are thousands of copies of the original manuscript known as dead seas scrolls. The translation version translate from these manuscripts. How to know which is accurate and which is not? Look at all the versions, it's readily available online. All of them. Compare them to the hebrew and greek.
*
1. If tat is justified by saying tat we duno wat God is thinking and he has eternal view of things then dun you think same reason can be used on cult as well? Yes, they bring many destruction to society but we duno what God is thinking and he has eternal view.

And why Jesus teach something so different like love your enemies? last time ppl also mistreated christians and even Jesus himself but why didnt he ask them to kill all of them? this is what i dun understand.

3. If plural, then why is there only one God. Do you mind to explain about Trinity? I dont really understand about this. Based on my understanding, Jesus =/= God but you can say he created the world althought it was God (Jehovah) who created the world. Similarly, it's also ok to say God himself came to world and redeemed human when it's Jesus who came to the world.

New question:

Why did God appoint Saul as king and then regret? Didn't he already know what will happen? For example, he wanted to destroy human and then create rainbow as a convenent that he will not destroy humanity. Then, he shudn't have bring flood if he know?
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 3 2017, 02:13 PM

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QUOTE(BlueTicket @ Jul 3 2017, 12:11 PM)
1. If tat is justified by saying tat we duno wat God is thinking and he has eternal view of things then dun you think same reason can be used on cult as well? Yes, they bring many destruction to society but we duno what God is thinking and he has eternal view.

And why Jesus teach something so different like love your enemies? last time ppl also mistreated christians and even Jesus himself but why didnt he ask them to kill all of them? this is what i dun understand.

3. If plural, then why is there only one God. Do you mind to explain about Trinity? I dont really understand about this. Based on my understanding, Jesus =/= God but you can say he created the world althought it was God (Jehovah) who created the world. Similarly, it's also ok to say God himself came to world and redeemed human when it's Jesus who came to the world.

New question:

Why did God appoint Saul as king and then regret? Didn't he already know what will happen? For example, he wanted to destroy human and then create rainbow as a convenent that he will not destroy humanity. Then, he shudn't have bring flood if he know?
*
1.
Why must it be based on us...what we know for it to be justified? The matter of Life and Death is not even in our control.
I never said it's justified because we don't know how God thinks, For me, it's justified because God has the sovereign right to give and take away life as creator, plus He has omniscience knowledge.

Think of it this way, there are people in your life that you look up to..perhaps because the person has more knowledge, so you look to this person for trusted advice or professional opinion.

God is greater than all the wisest person alive, CEOs, Kings, Queens, Prime Ministers, President of every country combined in power and knowledge, He knows what He's doing. The Bible puts in a narrative..where even the weakness of God is stronger than human strength. (1 Corinthians 1:25), to help us understand, our conclusion of things can never surpasses God's wisdom.

In the Old Testament, God treats people according to how they performed. Obey and God will Bless, Failure to obey there will be judgement. That is the Old Covenant. I'm sure you heard of the 10 commandments. Here is one thought for you to think. Israel have not even heard what are the 10 commandment and yet they emphatically told God, All that God commanded, they will do it. How can you promise something to God on something you've never even heard yet? Yet after the 10 commandment was given...there is so much death because it proves that Man cannot. The vanity of Man.

In the New Covenant, God reveals his Heart, He wants to treat us based on his Grace, therefore there is a great switch on why the difference. Actually in the Old Testament God was ALREADY showing the treatment of Grace but because Israel boast...ALL that God commanded, they will do it....that caused God to back away. He respect your decision, if that is what man wanted, so by it they will be gauged...performance base.



3. Nobody can understand it, it's a divine mystery, just have to accept what Jesus said in John 10:30 (NIV) - I and the Father are one. Jesus repeatedly said, He is IN the Father and the Father is IN Him (John 14:11). That is unison God, one and the same yet different person.


Actually God never wanted to appoint a human king for Israel. They were the one who insisted and wanted a human king. God has Jesus in mind to come to rule them. Yes God regretted..because there was so much prevalent evil, there was intermarriage between fallen angels and human, Man was corrupted. He wanted to wipe out the entire human race because of the intermix corruption, but still relented and allow Human to live on through Noah because Noah and his family was righteous in the sense they were pure human breed and they had faithful relationship with God.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 3 2017, 02:22 PM
desmond2020
post Jul 3 2017, 05:16 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 3 2017, 09:54 AM)
Which verse did Jesus say that?

Did He say that when we give towards our fellow neighbors?enemies(human) or towards God?

As far as I can find...most likely you took this from

Luke 6:35 (NIV) - But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.

The irony is....Jesus tells us to expect nothing from a fellow human being (granted) but Jesus never says to expect nothing from God. In fact the irony is that God will reward us great. Can you tell that to God almighty, that you expect nothing from Him when this verse says "Great will be the reward"?

I think this fearing God in tying to expect nothing from God is like worshipping a fearful God which is not how Jesus depict as a Father. The Father that Jesus revealed is one who celebrates with a fatten calf and put shows and ring on our finger as his child.

Don't get angry with me but I think this doctrine of "fearing God and expect nothing from God" is not biblical because the Bible tells otherwise and if you say we should fear God then we need to accept what God says in Proverbs 3:9-10. Else it's a contradiction.

**

I also understand your concern where we need to have a proper reverence for God and not treat God like an ATM machine but if God's own word says He will cause our barns to overflow...who are we to reject God's own saying? You're like saying we need to fear God and yet reject his word of promise as well which is a contradiction, imo.

For me, a proper reverence for God is also to accept his blessings, acknowledging we need it and not reject it because we think we can handle life. God never says to expect nothing from Him, Jesus was careful to point it that we are to expect nothing in return from our enemies...Never from God. We need to be clear and accurate on this.

*
Well, let me show you something I read which I think is pretty reasonable


quote



Heresy = Bible verses twisted just a couple of degrees off center



If someone desires to give the church a certain percentage of their net or gross income, I honor that as their right and privilege. As for me, I promote that all Christians should give generously and cheerfully.



But first, a full disclosure – I believe that tithing was an Old Covenant rite by which about 23% of goods, usually agricultural products, were given to God for the maintenance of the priests, for the poor. I see no comparable requirement for the church, which is supposed to “honor” its leaders (1 Tim 5:17) and make voluntary pledges to special projects (Paul’s Jerusalem Fund). [1]



I have no argument with tithers so long as they have no argument with me. And I’m not speaking here about legalistic tithing or carnal non-tithing.



But in the past few weeks I have found people preaching what must be held up and labeled perversions of the gospel and of the practice of tithing. I’m not even talking about the protection racketeers like Benny Hinn, Creflo Dollar, and their ilk on TBN, who constantly pound home the gospel of writing a check to their ministry. I’m speaking of heresy – a term I use infrequently and, I hope, with precision. Let’s look at three examples of Tithe-as-Heresy:



Example One: Non-Tithers are Under God’s Curse



Usually people try to dodge around the implications of what they are teaching, but here’s a source that expressed itself frankly:





If you don’t pay tithe, the Bible says you are robbing God and you are under a curse. This curse cannot be removed by your good works or the fact that you are born again. You can only reverse this curse if you start paying tithe. Tithe is the only key to prosperity and God’s blessing. The Bible is very clear about this and there is no way around it. [2]



They add a point that helps the church’s fiscal status, should the pastor turns out to be a wolf:





When Pastors misuse your tithe, do not lose faith in God. Continue to pay your tithe…



This should be a comfort to Creflo Dollar, given the regular claims that he plunders his ministry’s offerings.



The problem is that, if someone is going to apply words such as “curse” to non-tithers, they should give them their full weight. Being under God’s curse does not mean “you won’t prosper as you should”. It means he has condemned you, damned you. (See Matt 25:41; 1 Cor 16:22; Gal 1:8-9; Heb 6:8; Rev 22:3; Rom 9:3 – accursed by God = “cut off from Christ”).



Which leads us to our next permutation.



Example Two: Non-Tithers Inevitably Go to Hell



In an earlier post I mentioned Angélica Zambrano, a young woman from Ecuador who claimed to have visited heaven and hell and brought back information about who ended up where. [3] In this modern-day Dante’s Inferno, Angélica found out that non-tithers all end up in the flames. One young man told her:





“When you return to Earth, tell all those people who don’t want to give their tithes and offerings, not to steal from the Lord, otherwise, they’ll wind up in Hell, and no thief will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. I knew the Holy Word, now I regret it and realize I robbed the Lord.” (Malachi 3:8) “Tell the people when they give to God, give the Lord with true love.” (2 Cor 9:7) This man kept pleading, “Lord forgive me”, and the Lord replied, “It is too late, there is no opportunity for you.” [4]



So, salvation is not through faith in Christ, but through Christ plus tithing.



Example Three: Tithing is the Gospel



This is the most horrific I have heard, but the month isn’t over yet and something worse might show up. “Apostle” Guillermo Maldonado of Miami [5] teaches that the “original sin” in the garden was the failure of Adam and Eve to tithe. Let me quote parts of what he says, to show that I am not imagining this:



“The original sin of Eden was stealing the tithe…The tree of the knowledge of good and evil represents or symbolizes the tithe…And God said to him, Don’t touch what is mine…Everything else you can eat, you can enjoy…In the Garden is where man became indebted to God…The tithe is what we owe to God, it’s the debt when Adam ate, a debt began, so when you give the tithe, you aren’t doing anything by paying a debt.” (He goes on to say that God won’t bless people if they only tithe, they have to give more than that to even begin to be financially blessed).



This is about as far from the gospel as we could go – we would have to rewrite Paul’s teaching to “even as by one man’s failure to tithe, we all sinned, so by Apostle Maldonado coming to tell us to tithe, we will live.”



The word “heresy” should not be applied to tithers or non-tithers, not if they follow the gospel. As a professor explained it to us many years ago, denominational distinctives are what distinguish Christian from Christian; heresy is what distinguishes Christian from not-Christian. The three examples above are not-Christian, not-gospel, not-True God. Most heretics you run across quote the Bible plenty. But when they twist its meaning just a few degrees of dead center, voilà, you have a whole new religion.



Again, if you believe that giving a certain percentage to God is right for you, then do so, gladly. And if not, don’t – that is your right. But let us never let anyone take a doctrine like tithing as a means of financial extortion; spiritual abuse; or sacrilege against God.


TSunknown warrior
post Jul 3 2017, 07:43 PM

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QUOTE(desmond2020 @ Jul 3 2017, 05:16 PM)
Well, let me show you something I read which I think is pretty reasonable
quote
Heresy = Bible verses twisted just a couple of degrees off center



If someone desires to give the church a certain percentage of their net or gross income, I honor that as their right and privilege. As for me, I promote that all Christians should give generously and cheerfully.



But first, a full disclosure – I believe that tithing was an Old Covenant rite by which about 23% of goods, usually agricultural products, were given to God for the maintenance of the priests, for the poor. I see no comparable requirement for the church, which is supposed to “honor” its leaders (1 Tim 5:17) and make voluntary pledges to special projects (Paul’s Jerusalem Fund). [1]



I have no argument with tithers so long as they have no argument with me. And I’m not speaking here about legalistic tithing or carnal non-tithing.



But in the past few weeks I have found people preaching what must be held up and labeled perversions of the gospel and of the practice of tithing. I’m not even talking about the protection racketeers like Benny Hinn, Creflo Dollar, and their ilk on TBN, who constantly pound home the gospel of writing a check to their ministry. I’m speaking of heresy – a term I use infrequently and, I hope, with precision. Let’s look at three examples of Tithe-as-Heresy:



Example One: Non-Tithers are Under God’s Curse



Usually people try to dodge around the implications of what they are teaching, but here’s a source that expressed itself frankly:





If you don’t pay tithe, the Bible says you are robbing God and you are under a curse. This curse cannot be removed by your good works or the fact that you are born again. You can only reverse this curse if you start paying tithe. Tithe is the only key to prosperity and God’s blessing. The Bible is very clear about this and there is no way around it. [2]



They add a point that helps the church’s fiscal status, should the pastor turns out to be a wolf:





When Pastors misuse your tithe, do not lose faith in God. Continue to pay your tithe…



This should be a comfort to Creflo Dollar, given the regular claims that he plunders his ministry’s offerings.



The problem is that, if someone is going to apply words such as “curse” to non-tithers, they should give them their full weight. Being under God’s curse does not mean “you won’t prosper as you should”. It means he has condemned you, damned you. (See Matt 25:41; 1 Cor 16:22; Gal 1:8-9; Heb 6:8; Rev 22:3; Rom 9:3 – accursed by God = “cut off from Christ”).



Which leads us to our next permutation.



Example Two: Non-Tithers Inevitably Go to Hell



In an earlier post I mentioned Angélica Zambrano, a young woman from Ecuador who claimed to have visited heaven and hell and brought back information about who ended up where. [3] In this modern-day Dante’s Inferno, Angélica found out that non-tithers all end up in the flames. One young man told her:





“When you return to Earth, tell all those people who don’t want to give their tithes and offerings, not to steal from the Lord, otherwise, they’ll wind up in Hell, and no thief will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. I knew the Holy Word, now I regret it and realize I robbed the Lord.” (Malachi 3:8) “Tell the people when they give to God, give the Lord with true love.” (2 Cor 9:7) This man kept pleading, “Lord forgive me”, and the Lord replied, “It is too late, there is no opportunity for you.” [4]



So, salvation is not through faith in Christ, but through Christ plus tithing.



Example Three: Tithing is the Gospel



This is the most horrific I have heard, but the month isn’t over yet and something worse might show up. “Apostle” Guillermo Maldonado of Miami [5] teaches that the “original sin” in the garden was the failure of Adam and Eve to tithe. Let me quote parts of what he says, to show that I am not imagining this:



“The original sin of Eden was stealing the tithe…The tree of the knowledge of good and evil represents or symbolizes the tithe…And God said to him, Don’t touch what is mine…Everything else you can eat, you can enjoy…In the Garden is where man became indebted to God…The tithe is what we owe to God, it’s the debt when Adam ate, a debt began, so when you give the tithe, you aren’t doing anything by paying a debt.” (He goes on to say that God won’t bless people if they only tithe, they have to give more than that to even begin to be financially blessed).



This is about as far from the gospel as we could go – we would have to rewrite Paul’s teaching to “even as by one man’s failure to tithe, we all sinned, so by Apostle Maldonado coming to tell us to tithe, we will live.”



The word “heresy” should not be applied to tithers or non-tithers, not if they follow the gospel. As a professor explained it to us many years ago, denominational distinctives are what distinguish Christian from Christian; heresy is what distinguishes Christian from not-Christian. The three examples above are not-Christian, not-gospel, not-True God. Most heretics you run across quote the Bible plenty. But when they twist its meaning just a few degrees of dead center, voilà, you have a whole new religion.



Again, if you believe that giving a certain percentage to God is right for you, then do so, gladly. And if not, don’t – that is your right. But let us never let anyone take a doctrine like tithing as a means of financial extortion; spiritual abuse; or sacrilege against God.
*
I'm quite familiar with such writings and critics and I've studied quite a bit on tithing. Tithing was never just an old covenant rites. It is something that even Jesus sanctions in the New Testament (because Him being God), He is the one who instituted it. As for the matter of the curse, if you study the Bible...even in the New Testament, God calls money as Unrighteous Mammon. DO you know why?
desmond2020
post Jul 3 2017, 07:51 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 3 2017, 07:43 PM)
I'm quite familiar with such writings and critics and I've studied quite a bit on tithing. Tithing was never just an old covenant rites. It is something that even Jesus sanctions in the New Testament (because Him being God), He is the one who instituted it. As for the matter of the curse, if you study the Bible...even in the New Testament, God calls money as Unrighteous Mammon. DO you know why?
*
I see

then we have nothing to discuss further if you can ignore what the like Maldonado has done to gospel.
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 3 2017, 08:31 PM

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QUOTE(desmond2020 @ Jul 3 2017, 07:51 PM)
I see

then we have nothing to discuss further if you can ignore what the like Maldonado has done to gospel.
*
If what He does is wrong, God will deal with Him, If He is fake, the people who was healed through his ministry will come out and say something on the fake healing.

I'm not concern about Him, I'm only concern on what was said on God's word by the critics and by Him, is it in alignment? I did ask you a question because I rather you understand the Bible rather than what critic says.

You're not discussion on the core problem, right now you're just concern on what the critic says about feeding wolves pastor in sheep clothing but the core problem is not really addressed, what was said about tithing is not entire accurate, tithing is sanctioned by Jesus in the New Testament, so it's not just an old testament rite, it's in the entire Bible.

It's up to you if you rather listen to critics rather than narrowing down what the Bible says...It's a simple question after all, even you can answer.
thomasthai
post Jul 4 2017, 10:53 AM

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I will just leave this here, for christians to have a balanced view on these things.



10 videos in total.

I know UW will be unhappy with this, but I'm pleading to all christians to discern and not be deceived by these charlatans.

This post has been edited by thomasthai: Jul 4 2017, 10:53 AM
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 4 2017, 11:14 AM

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QUOTE(thomasthai @ Jul 4 2017, 10:53 AM)
I will just leave this here, for christians to have a balanced view on these things.



10 videos in total.

I know UW will be unhappy with this, but I'm pleading to all christians to discern and not be deceived by these charlatans.
*
I find that people who went to the Rally will disagree with your views.

I'm unhappy because of propaganda like this because it causes Christians to draw back and live and practise "safe christianity" where they do not believe in God for miracles anymore because fear of being disappointed and hurt when the problem has been solely on the stuff written on propagation which thrive on doubt..much judgment and criticism fling at people causing the focus from believing in God for miracles in believing in people to doubt God. This is why I'm unhappy, you're right.

People hardly read the bible for themselves to understand it's truth anymore but they readily believe in articles of judgement similar like yours.

Focus has been diverted from Living Christ(meaning we can have manifested grace in reality) to which pastor is sheep which person is a fake, etc. Focus is on people, no wonder Faith is stifled.

I'm sad that you do not understand this.

The kind of Faith that the people of the Bible lived through has a lot of disappointment with God but the Faith to believe in was quite supernatural and demands to move beyond our comfort zone of "safe" believe.

So what happens is that Christianity has dwindled to just believing in Salvation so people just hold on in suffering until they die.


For me it's basically what Satan wants because A no victory but mundane Christian life helps his cause. But when a christian life is filled the power of the divine Lord God Almighty, those break bondage, God delivering them from held circumstances this type causes damages to Satan's kingdom in contrast.

I won't delete your video because I want Christians to know also what is wrong with this sort of videos.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 4 2017, 10:38 PM
thomasthai
post Jul 4 2017, 12:25 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 4 2017, 11:14 AM)
I find that people who went to the Rally will disagree with your views.

I'm unhappy because of propaganda like this because it causes Christians to draw back and live and practise "safe christianity" where they do not believe in God for miracles anymore because fear of being disappointed and hurt when the problem has been solely on the stuff written on propagation which thrive on doubt..much judgment and criticism fling at people causing the focus from believing in God for miracles in believing in people to doubt God. This is why I'm unhappy, you're right.

People hardly read the bible for themselves to understand it's truth anymore but they read articles like yours.

Focus has been diverted from Christ to which pastor is sheep which person is a fake, etc. Focus is on people, no wonder Faith is stifled.

I'm sad that you do not understand this.

The kind of Faith that the people of the Bible lived through has a lot of disappointment with God but the Faith to believe in was quite supernatural and demands to move beyond our comfort zone of believe.

So what happens is that Christianity has dwindled to just believing in Salvation so people just hold on in suffering until they die.
For me this is what Satan wants. A no victory but mundane Christian life. One that lacks the power of the divine Lord God Almighty.

I won't delete your video because I want Christians to know also what is wrong with this sort of videos.
*
I'm telling you that faith is energised by the holy spirit through the bible. If your faith is genuine, you will never feel suffering. I'm energised by the HS everyday, who draws me to find out more about the word of God. I couldnt have done it on my own even if I want to.

Bible says walk by faith, not by sight. Dont believe because you saw the 'miracles', believe because bible is the truth.

What kind of victory do you want? As far as I know, we already have the biggest victory ever, conquering death in christ!

I don't have a propaganda, I genuinely believe those are false prophets.

Bless you.

desmond2020
post Jul 4 2017, 12:27 PM

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Cessationism is the view that the “miracle gifts” of tongues and healing have ceased—that the end of the apostolic age brought about a cessation of the miracles associated with that age. Most cessationists believe that, while God can and still does perform miracles today, the Holy Spirit no longer uses individuals to perform miraculous signs.

The biblical record shows that miracles occurred during particular periods for the specific purpose of authenticating a new message from God. Moses was enabled to perform miracles to authenticate his ministry before Pharaoh (Exodus 4:1-8). Elijah was given miracles to authenticate his ministry before Ahab (1 Kings 17:1; 18:24). The apostles were given miracles to authenticate their ministry before Israel (Acts 4:10, 16).

Jesus’ ministry was also marked by miracles, which the Apostle John calls “signs” (John 2:11). John’s point is that the miracles were proofs of the authenticity of Jesus’ message.

After Jesus’ resurrection, as the Church was being established and the New Testament was being written, the apostles demonstrated “signs” such as tongues and the power to heal. “Tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not” (1 Corinthians 14:22, a verse that plainly says the gift was never intended to edify the church).

The Apostle Paul predicted that the gift of tongues would cease (1 Corinthians 13:8). Here are six proofs that it has already ceased:

1) The apostles, through whom tongues came, were unique in the history of the church. Once their ministry was accomplished, the need for authenticating signs ceased to exist.

2) The miracle (or sign) gifts are only mentioned in the earliest epistles, such as 1 Corinthians. Later books, such as Ephesians and Romans, contain detailed passages on the gifts of the Spirit, but the miracle gifts are not mentioned, although Romans does mention the gift of prophecy. The Greek word translated “prophecy” means “speaking forth” and does not necessarily include prediction of the future.

3) The gift of tongues was a sign to unbelieving Israel that God’s salvation was now available to other nations. See 1 Corinthians 14:21-22 and Isaiah 28:11-12.

4) Tongues was an inferior gift to prophecy (preaching). Preaching the Word of God edifies believers, whereas tongues does not. Believers are told to seek prophesying over speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:1-3).

5) History indicates that tongues did cease. Tongues are not mentioned at all by the Post-Apostolic Fathers. Other writers such as Justin Martyr, Origen, Chrysostom, and Augustine considered tongues something that happened only in the earliest days of the Church.

6) Current observation confirms that the miracle of tongues has ceased. If the gift were still available today, there would be no need for missionaries to attend language school. Missionaries would be able to travel to any country and speak any language fluently, just as the apostles were able to speak in Acts 2. As for the miracle gift of healing, we see in Scripture that healing was associated with the ministry of Jesus and the apostles (Luke 9:1-2). And we see that as the era of the apostles drew to a close, healing, like tongues, became less frequent. The Apostle Paul, who raised Eutychus from the dead (Acts 20:9-12), did not heal Epaphroditus (Philippians 2:25-27), Trophimus (2 Timothy 4:20), Timothy (1 Timothy 5:23), or even himself (2 Corinthians 12:7-9). The reasons for Paul’s “failures to heal” are 1) the gift was never intended to make every Christian well, but to authenticate apostleship; and 2) the authority of the apostles had been sufficiently proved, making further miracles unnecessary.

The reasons stated above are evidence for cessationism. According to 1 Corinthians 13:13-14:1, we would do well to “pursue love,” the greatest gift of all. If we are to desire gifts, we should desire to speak forth the Word of God, that all may be edified.


TSunknown warrior
post Jul 4 2017, 12:54 PM

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QUOTE(thomasthai @ Jul 4 2017, 12:25 PM)
I'm telling you that faith is energised by the holy spirit through the bible. If your faith is genuine, you will never feel suffering. I'm energised by the HS everyday, who draws me to find out more about the word of God. I couldnt have done it on my own even if I want to.

Bible says walk by faith, not by sight. Dont believe because you saw the 'miracles', believe because bible is the truth.

What kind of victory do you want? As far as I know, we already have the biggest victory ever, conquering death in christ!

I don't have a propaganda, I genuinely believe those are false prophets.

Bless you.
*
If you agree to walk by faith and not by sight then I feel it's more appropriate to reason cessation is not the truth. God still works his miracles today. It takes Faith to believe in that.

My bible says to believe in the miracles because it points to the work of God, Jesus in particular. I know you have your interpretation of work meaning spreading the Gospel but I beg to differ. He also work to prove his credential via his miracles. So that is inclusive of his work, you don't need to be asked to convince HE is God if the context was to just "spread the gospel".

It doesn't take Faith to hold the view all the signs and wonders has ceased. It takes a lot more to believe in signs and wonder of God therefore the meaning we live by Faith and not by sight.

Nobody is disputing on victory in Salvation. Sorry bro I just cannot agree the theoretical christian life where we talk so much about theology and head knowledge about God but dare not believe for the divine or supernatural.

That to me is equally a defeatist doctrine.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 5 2017, 08:26 AM
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 4 2017, 12:56 PM

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QUOTE(desmond2020 @ Jul 4 2017, 12:27 PM)
snip.
*
Sorry but I cannot deny what God did in my life.

Miracles did happen, healing did happen.

Sorry.



This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 4 2017, 10:32 PM
desmond2020
post Jul 4 2017, 03:24 PM

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The Christian view of wealth should be derived from the Scriptures. There are many times in the Old Testament that God gave riches to His people. Solomon was promised riches and became the richest of all the kings of the earth (1 Kings 3:11-13; 2 Chronicles 9:22); David said in 1 Chronicles 29:12: “Wealth and honor come from you; you are the ruler of all things.” Abraham (Genesis 17-20), Jacob (Genesis 30-31), Joseph (Genesis 41), King Jehoshaphat (2 Chronicles 17:5), and many others were blessed by God with wealth. However, they were a chosen people with earthly promises and rewards. They were given a land and all the riches it held.

In the New Testament, there is a different standard. The church was never given a land or the promise of riches. Ephesians 1:3 tells us, “Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.” Christ spoke in Matthew 13:22 concerning the seed of God's Word falling among thorns and “the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful” (NKJV). This is the first reference to earthly riches in the New Testament. Clearly, this is not a positive image.

In Mark 10:23, " Jesus looked around and said to His disciples, ‘How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God!’” It was not impossible—for all things are possible with God—but it would be “hard.” In Luke 16:13, Jesus spoke about “mammon” (the Aramaic word for “riches”): “No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.” Again, the imagery here is of wealth as a negative influence on spirituality and one that can keep us from God.

God speaks of the true riches He brings to us today in Romans 2:4: “Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?” These are the riches which bring eternal life. Again, this is brought out in Romans 9:23: “And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?” (NKJV). Also, Ephesians 1:7: “In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace." Referring to God giving mercy, Paul praises God in Romans 11:33: “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!” The emphasis of the New Testament is God's riches in us: “That you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints” (Ephesians1:18b). God actually wants to show off His riches in us in heaven: “And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus” (Ephesians 2:6-7).

The riches that God wants for us: “I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being” (Ephesians 3:16). The greatest verse for New Testament believers concerning riches is Philippians 4:19: “And my God will meet all your needs according to his glorious riches in Christ Jesus.” This statement was written by Paul because the Philippians had sent sacrificial gifts to take care of Paul's needs.

First Timothy 6:17 gives a warning to the rich: “Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment.” James 5:1-3 gives us another warning about riches that were wrongly gained: “Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you. Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days.” The last time that riches are mentioned in the Bible is in Revelation 18:17, speaking of the great destruction of Babylon: “In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!”

To summarize, Israel was given earthly promises and rewards as God's chosen people on earth. He gave many illustrations and types and truths through them. Many people desire to take their blessings, but not their curses. However, in the progression of revelation, God has revealed through Jesus Christ a more excellent ministry: “But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises” (Hebrews 8:6).

God does not condemn anyone for having riches. Riches come to people from many sources, but He gives grave warnings to those who seek after them more than they seek after God and trust in them more than in God. His greatest desire is for us to set our hearts on things above and not on things on this earth. This may sound very high and unobtainable, but Paul wrote, “I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me” (Philippians 4:13 NKJV). The secret is knowing Christ as Savior and allowing the Holy Spirit to conform our minds and heart to His (Romans 12:1-2).
desmond2020
post Jul 4 2017, 07:32 PM

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Here is an excellent article on tithing

Thoughts on Tithing
by
John MacArthur

All Rights Reserved
Copyright 1984





Question

There is a very popular Charismatic TV program that promotes the "law of reciprocity," as far as tithing goes--giving money to the Lord. In effect, that whatever you give to the Lord, you are going to receive it back while you are on earth. I just want to hear you views on that.

Answer

Open your Bible to a very important portion of Scripture that has to be considered in any discussion like this [tithing], on that question, and that is 2 Corinthians 8-9, because this is where the issue is discussed. The principle that is laid down here has to be brought into thought. The whole section of 8 and 9 is talking about giving, by the way, there is nothing in here about tithing--there is nothing in the New Testament any place to advocate tithing.

"Tithing," are you familiar with the concept of tithing, you know, "Give 10% to the church," you know, that kind of thing? Tithing, basically, is never, ever advocated in the New Testament; it is never taught in the New Testament—never!

It is referred to a couple of times, that's all, as a historical fact: it talks about tithes being offered by Abraham to Aaron, you know, "in the loins of Abraham," it says, Aaron paid tithes to Melchizedek—it is just an historical reference. It talks about the fact that Abraham gave tithes, also of a tenth of the heap, which he took in the battle with the kings. So it is only an historic reference. And then in the gospels it talks about the fact that the Jews tithed to their government, again a historical reference. No place in the entire New Testament is it ever advocated for us to give tithes, that is, for us to give 10% to the church. You say, "Well what was it in the Old Testament?" Every year a Jew had to give 10% of all of his crop and all of his produce, and all of whatever he had. He gave 10%, which was called the "Levite's Tithe," and what you have to understand is that the nation Israel was a theocracy, that is, it was ruled by God through priests. There were 24 different orders of priests, with thousands upon thousands of priests—they were the government officials, they were the Senate, the Congress, the whole thing, only they didn't have to vote on anything—they just sought God and God told them what to do. So it was a theocracy ruled by God and that rule was disseminated through these people.

Well, since they were the agents of the government, they had to be supported. Do you remember that the twelve tribes were each given land, but they split the tribe of Joseph in to two tribes: Ephriam and Manassah to make up twelve, because Levi was taken out, because Levi was the priestly tribe and they owned nothing. So they had to be supported by all the other tribes. They were given cities in the locations of the other tribal areas and people had to give money to support their livelihood—part of their sheep, part of their crop, and everything had to go to support Levi's tribe, because they were the ones who represented God in the government.

So when you gave your 10% each year you gave it to the government for the care of the country, the nation. Secondly, you gave another 10% every year, which was for the festivals and the religious convocations of the nation. In other words, all of the big things that were held in Jerusalem, all the things that had to be done to prepared for the feasts and so forth in Jerusalem, and all the holy days, and all the Sabbaths, and all the everything else that went with it.

So you pay 10% to the Levites to support them as they operated in behalf of God in the government; you paid 10% to take care of the national festivals, which were many, many. Then you paid another 10% every third year, which went to the poor and the widows. So if you broke that down, you are at about 23.3% per year. Now what that was, was an income tax system. That was a system of taxation to fund the government and its religious activities and its welfare needs.

So when people today say, "We want to tithe now like they did in the Old Testament," they can't stop at 10%, they got 23.3% to start with. In addition to that, you paid a half shekel temple tax every year, in addition to that, if you had a field, you had to harvest the field in a circle and leave the corners open for the poor. It was a profit-sharing plan. If you dropped a bail of hay off your wagon, on the way to the barn, you had to leave that for the poor. So you start adding that up and you are looking at about 25% of their income went to fund the national entity of the government. Now when you get into the New Testament, the Jews were still doing that, because they still had a nation, even though they were an occupied nation, they were still a nation. They were occupied by the Romans, but they weren't run by the Romans. They had their own religious hierarchy, they had their own school systems, they had their own festivals, and all that stuff, and so they had to take care of that. They had their own priesthood; it all had to go on, that is why Jesus said, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's," in other words, pay the Romans what they asked, and render to God the things that are God's. So just to clarify that at the very beginning, when you are talking about a tithe, you are talking about the "taxation." Now when you translate that over into our time, it is kind of interesting to me that the base tax system in our country is about 20%, you add sales tax to that and you probably get another 5%, we are on about the same level they were then--about 25% of our income goes out for taxation, if you are in the normal tax bracket and with normal deductions, unless you are really doing well, but then they get you in different ways, because the more money you have the more things you buy, the more things you buy, the higher sales tax you pay, so maybe it comes out even harder for people who have more. Nonetheless, that's taxation. OK? Giving was always something different, always you gave whatever you wanted, like when they built the tabernacle and God said, "Let every man bring whatever he purposes in his heart; let him do it willingly, whatever he wants to give." And they kept coming, bringing so much that finally they said, "Stop, don't bring anymore--that's enough." So giving is always a "freewill," it's always an expression of love and appreciation--whatever you want to do.

Now you come to 2 Corinthians, chapter eight, and you learn how the church gave. The church knew there was a need so the church gave. How did they give? Well, it wasn't 10%, it says, "The churches in Macedonia, 2Cor 8:1, gave abundantly out of deep poverty. It says that their deep poverty abounded to the riches of their liberality." Here was a very poor church in Macedonia, very poor, but they gave generously, out of their hearts liberally. In fact, verse three says, they gave beyond their ability. They gave more than they should have given--more then they could of given, and the reason they did that was in verse five, because they first gave themselves. I mean when you give yourself then everything you have belongs to the Lord. So, Paul is saying to the Corinthians, "If you want a lesson in giving, look at these people--out of deep poverty they gave everything they had." In fact, they gave more then they should of, but they did that because they had already given themselves to the Lord. Now you have the key motive in giving; what is the right motive in giving? It is not to get anything. It is in that whole hearted abandonment, "they gave everything."

I worry about this Charismatic "Health and Wealth" prosperity business, where you are just simply saying, "Well I am going to give my money so I can get it!" That is not the spirit of the Macedonians, they didn't even have enough to give what they gave, but they gave it anyway, because they had already given themselves to the Lord. Their whole program was a "give myself away" program, not a "get for myself" program. We are suffering today, in Christianity, from an absolutely pervasive greed. Our contemporary Christianity is so self-indulgent it boggles the mind. That is why we don't reach out to people, because we are consumed with feeding ourselves. It's a mentality that all of us fall prey to.

A guy in our church told me the other day that he was meeting with a group of Christians, and all they could talk about was their latest investments. You look around you and you see people all around the world, you know, who have need. I was talking to Mitz (sp.) and he was telling me there are about 32,000 people in the city of Los Angeles who are homeless. We have been strategizing the last few days about what we are going to do about that. Some people are talking about how they can get another Mercedes, and there are some people who are trying to get up out of the gutter to feed their family.

So, we have a mentality, and of course, what we have done, see, we justified our materialism by developing a theology to accommodate it--you know, "Jesus wants you healthy and wealthy."

There was a book called "Prime Time Religion" about Oral Roberts, and it showed how he has become a multimillionaire by the way he works things. In the book it points out, for example, he writes a book or has someone write it for him, and then he publishes it with his own publishing house (it describes all this, one of the guys on his staff wrote the book--unhappily for them); it shows how he publishes the book and then sells it to the Oral Roberts Evangelistic Association--sells them about two million copies so they can send it out to all the people on their mailing list, who send them twenty-five bucks, only he sells to them for a dollar profit on each book. So he writes a book, publishes the book, makes a buck profit selling it to his own organization, pockets two million dollars and then they distribute it.

Now, those are the kinds of people, for the most part, who are on television begging you for your money, and telling you that God is going to make you rich and so forth.

So there is a theology that has developed, and then what they do, trying to live with that is very difficult, so in order to live with that kind of thing you develop a theology that says "Jesus wants you wealthy," and that's how you deal with your conscience--"God wants you rich!" I mean, you read in a magazine--we were in Israel and we find people, who go over there to lead tours to Israel, demand $1,000 per day rooms, they demand limousine service everywhere, they go into these little shops where they take their tourists to buy things, and one guy told me that one group went in there and the leader wanted $12,000 worth of jewelry to bring his group to their store.

These are the people who develop this kind of accommodating theology, "Jesus wants you wealthy, Jesus wants you rich, Jesus wants you prosperous, He wants you healthy and all that kind of thing," and I really believe that it is a "back door" means to justify a materialistic attitude, and the Lord needs to deliver us from that.

These people [2 Cor 8:1] gave out of their deep poverty, not because they wanted anything back because they were so abandoned to the Lord. Having said all of that, all right--this is a long sermon--I want you to look at chapter nine, verse six, "But this I say, he that sows sparingly shall reap sparingly; he that sows bountifully shall reap bountifully." In this sense, we have to admit that they have a kernel of the truth, because if you sow a little bit you reap a little, if you sow a lot you reap a lot, and it is true that when you give to the Lord--He does give back, but if that is your motive--it's warped. It is true that He does that, but if you come to the Lords work and say, "I'm going to put this in, because I know that I am going to get back multiplied, then your giving is illegitimate. But if you can do it with a free, clear conscience, and even though you have to fight yourself, you know, sometimes you say, "Boy, I know the Lord is going to return this but that's not going to be my motive," you know, you kind of go back and forth, but if you have a clear conscience about that then it is ok. So, "you sow sparingly, you reap sparingly; you sow bountifully, you reap bountifully." There is the fact that God will bless, Luke 6:38, Jesus says, "Give, and it shall be. . . ." what? "Given unto you, " That's a great statement, "pressed down, shaken together and running over."

Did you ever buy a box of crackers and shake it, and open it, and you got about a third of a box of crackers? But that isn't how it is going to be when the Lord gives, it will be pressed down, shaken together, and still running over. He'll give.

Now, you say, "Yeah, I know what will happen to me. I will give all of my money and the Lord will give me back all spiritual blessings." That might happen, but in verse seven it says, "every man according as he purposes in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, nor of necessity: for God loves a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that you, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work." And, he will minister (verse 10) "He that ministers seed to the sower will minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness." Verse 10 is really key: He says He will not only give you back what you sowed; He'll give you back bread for your food--He'll take care of your physical needs when you give, and He'll increase the fruit of your righteousness. It doesn't say that He'll make you wealthy, does it? It says, He'll meet your needs, and He will fill your life with righteousness.

Question (continued)

I did notice that most of the verses they used to promote this were out of the Old Testament.

Answer (continued)

It's very popular doctrine--people want to be rich, they want to be wealthy. The hottest new cult there is, is Terri Cole Whittiker (sp.)--I don't know if you've seen her? She is nothing but a slick Doris Day type Reverend Ike! She is in it for the money. She comes out of "Science of Mind." She's manipulative--she has figured out how to make a fortune and she is "milking" it for every dime that she can get out of it. And she can do it because people will do anything to get rich. People will do anything to get two things: money and health--and if you can promise people health and wealth, they will follow you off the end of the pier--believe me, they will.

Why do you think Jesus told the disciples when He sent them out, "Take no money when you heal," because if they would have taken money, they would have become instant millionaires--people will pay any price for healing--and they could really do it! And they [people] will pay any price, they will invest anything, if they think that they can get rich.

You see, this is what "Reverend Ike" did for years. What he did was, he told these people, "You send me money--you might get rich." And he told story after story, after story about it and what "his" company did was, at random they would pick out people off their mailing list and deliver a new Cadillac to them. They would do that to 100 to 200 people a year, with the millions that were coming in, and then they would have them get up and give a testimony, how that one day there was a new Cadillac delivered in front of their door. And it becomes a lottery system--that's all it is. It is like buying a ticket in a raffle, and you know raffles work and people are gamblers--look at Las Vegas.

So if people think there is a way to get either health or wealth they will do anything, and that kind of doctrine will be popular and people will send money to it like "gangbusters." Oral Roberts has been doing that for thirty years. You ought to read his letters, "If you will send me $25 today, right today, the day you get this letter, I'll promise you that Jesus will give you back $250 within the next six months from an unexpected place." Very typical letter. And you know, you are liable to get $250 back somewhere you didn't expect it. Right? You old Aunt died, or you got an income tax return, or you got a social security check you didn't expect, or whatever. In the long run it hooks people--it's really tragic.

Added to Bible Bulletin Board's "MacArthur's Collection" by:

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Sophiera
post Jul 4 2017, 10:26 PM

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Oh the Bible Project new podcast

https://thebibleproject.simplecast.fm/episo...eaven-earth-q-r

It's about heaven and earth
Sophiera
post Jul 4 2017, 10:51 PM

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https://thebibleproject.simplecast.fm/episo...of-christianity

About holy spirit.
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 4 2017, 10:56 PM

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QUOTE(desmond2020 @ Jul 4 2017, 07:32 PM)
"Tithing," are you familiar with the concept of tithing, you know, "Give 10% to the church," you know, that kind of thing? Tithing, basically, is never, ever advocated in the New Testament; it is never taught in the New Testament—never! 

*
Few Scripture verse. But to begin Tithing did not exist only in the Mosaic Law, it existed 400 years before the Law hence it's never a Law to begin with, it's what God instituted else why do you think Cain and Able offered their produce?

Anyway...

Hebrews 7:4-10

4 Just think how great he was: Even the patriarch Abraham gave him a tenth of the plunder! 5 Now the law requires the descendants of Levi who become priests to collect a tenth from the people—that is, from their fellow Israelites—even though they also are descended from Abraham. 6 This man, however, did not trace his descent from Levi, yet he collected a tenth from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. 7 And without doubt the lesser is blessed by the greater. 8 In the one case, the tenth is collected by people who die; but in the other case, by him who is declared to be living. 9 One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham, 10 because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor.



Verse 8 says there, by him who is declared to be living..If you think about Melchizedek has passed on. Why does the Bible says "Living" then?

I submit to you, The context of this verse is talking about Jesus who = in the Order of Melchizedek forever. The tithe is to declare that Christ Live. If tithing is not important and matters not to God, it shouldn't even be mentioned in the New Testament, what more in the book of Hebrews.

Here is another.


Matthew 23:23 (NIV) - "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

Jesus emphasize both are important. To practice what is more important and also to tithe.

Too many times, people who oppose tithing will quote, it's only for the Israelite and will quote tithing is not money but Farm produces, etc. Today not all of us are farmers, hence we tithe with what we earned with our work, that is the same equivalent.



However Christians too often ignore Galatians 3:29 (NIV) - If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Being An Abraham Seed means you are a spiritual Israelite hence tithing matters to you as well, you can be blessed according to Proverbs 3:9-10 and also Malachi as God tells us to Test Him.


I think the point is...if people don't want to accept tithing, they will say all kind thing even saying you won't find it in the New Testament ..but why is it, I can see it, it's mention in the NT by Jesus?

I'll tell you why, for some people, money has in a way a hold on their life, can even go to the extend to say it's idolatry because they won't part their money, hoard it like there's no tomorrow..hence they like to hear all the "justification" not to tithe. but for me personally because I don't want money to be my God, one of the reason I tithe is to prove I can let go that 10% to God and honor his word and not just "talk" all my belonging belongs to God. Some people like to talk so much but can't even let go 5%. (you and I know who le....the other "S" dude ) That to me is hypocrisy.

You may have your points, I will respect your Baptist Doctrine (correct me if I'm wrong) but I just find it hard to agree tithing is not required.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 5 2017, 08:22 AM
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 4 2017, 11:10 PM

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QUOTE(desmond2020 @ Jul 4 2017, 03:24 PM)
The Christian view of wealth should be derived from the Scriptures. There are many times in the Old Testament that God gave riches to His people. Solomon was promised riches and became the richest of all the kings of the earth (1 Kings 3:11-13; 2 Chronicles 9:22); David said in 1 Chronicles 29:12: “Wealth and honor come from you; you are the ruler of all things.” Abraham (Genesis 17-20), Jacob (Genesis 30-31), Joseph (Genesis 41), King Jehoshaphat (2 Chronicles 17:5), and many others were blessed by God with wealth. However, they were a chosen people with earthly promises and rewards. They were given a land and all the riches it held.

In the New Testament, there is a different standard. The church was never given a land or the promise of riches. Ephesians 1:3 tells us, “Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.” Christ spoke in Matthew 13:22 concerning the seed of God's Word falling among thorns and “the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful” (NKJV). This is the first reference to earthly riches in the New Testament. Clearly, this is not a positive image.

In Mark 10:23, " Jesus looked around and said to His disciples, ‘How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God!’” It was not impossible—for all things are possible with God—but it would be “hard.” In Luke 16:13, Jesus spoke about “mammon” (the Aramaic word for “riches”): “No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.” Again, the imagery here is of wealth as a negative influence on spirituality and one that can keep us from God.

God speaks of the true riches He brings to us today in Romans 2:4: “Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?” These are the riches which bring eternal life. Again, this is brought out in Romans 9:23: “And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?” (NKJV). Also, Ephesians 1:7: “In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace." Referring to God giving mercy, Paul praises God in Romans 11:33: “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!” The emphasis of the New Testament is God's riches in us: “That you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints” (Ephesians1:18b). God actually wants to show off His riches in us in heaven: “And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus” (Ephesians 2:6-7).

The riches that God wants for us: “I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being” (Ephesians 3:16). The greatest verse for New Testament believers concerning riches is Philippians 4:19: “And my God will meet all your needs according to his glorious riches in Christ Jesus.” This statement was written by Paul because the Philippians had sent sacrificial gifts to take care of Paul's needs.

First Timothy 6:17 gives a warning to the rich: “Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment.” James 5:1-3 gives us another warning about riches that were wrongly gained: “Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you. Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days.” The last time that riches are mentioned in the Bible is in Revelation 18:17, speaking of the great destruction of Babylon: “In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!”

To summarize, Israel was given earthly promises and rewards as God's chosen people on earth. He gave many illustrations and types and truths through them. Many people desire to take their blessings, but not their curses. However, in the progression of revelation, God has revealed through Jesus Christ a more excellent ministry: “But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises” (Hebrews 8:6).

God does not condemn anyone for having riches. Riches come to people from many sources, but He gives grave warnings to those who seek after them more than they seek after God and trust in them more than in God. His greatest desire is for us to set our hearts on things above and not on things on this earth. This may sound very high and unobtainable, but Paul wrote, “I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me” (Philippians 4:13 NKJV). The secret is knowing Christ as Savior and allowing the Holy Spirit to conform our minds and heart to His (Romans 12:1-2).
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There's contradiction here. If wealth is a negative influence on spirituality and one that can keep us from God, then why did God bless Abraham or Solomon with such vast riches?



This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 4 2017, 11:28 PM
De_Luffy
post Jul 5 2017, 01:02 AM

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De_Luffy
post Jul 5 2017, 01:17 AM

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QUOTE(thomasthai @ Jul 4 2017, 12:25 PM)
I'm telling you that faith is energised by the holy spirit through the bible. If your faith is genuine, you will never feel suffering. I'm energised by the HS everyday, who draws me to find out more about the word of God. I couldnt have done it on my own even if I want to.

Bible says walk by faith, not by sight. Dont believe because you saw the 'miracles', believe because bible is the truth.

What kind of victory do you want? As far as I know, we already have the biggest victory ever, conquering death in christ!

I don't have a propaganda, I genuinely believe those are false prophets.

Bless you.
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I think everyone have their own view on how Holy Spirit worked through them, as the Bible has mentioned there's many type gifts of the holy spirit, miracle is one of them

God do still does miracle in our life, if you look at the life of apostles after they received the gift of holy spirit. They healed a crippled man by the temple steps and there is many more recorded miracles done by the apostles later on.

I'm impartial on this miracles thing but I don't deny it too same goes to the prosperity teaching, you don't go around preaching saying oh just do this everyday and you will strike riches, that is fake teaching
De_Luffy
post Jul 5 2017, 01:19 AM

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Hebrew version of How Great Is our God



This post has been edited by De_Luffy: Jul 5 2017, 01:19 AM
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 5 2017, 08:27 AM

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One thing about John MacArthur, He doesn't believe in healing. What God is doing today defy his doctrine.

I rather see God as how define by his word in the Bible not define by doctrine written by Man.

The problem with Christianity today, some of us are too dependant on who is the teacher (Man) rather than to look to the Holy Spirit the original teacher of the Bible.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 5 2017, 08:36 AM
desmond2020
post Jul 5 2017, 10:19 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 4 2017, 10:56 PM)
Few Scripture verse. But to begin Tithing did not exist only in the Mosaic Law, it existed 400 years before the Law hence it's never a Law to begin with, it's what God instituted else why do you think Cain and Able offered their produce?

Anyway...

Hebrews 7:4-10

4 Just think how great he was: Even the patriarch Abraham gave him a tenth of the plunder! 5 Now the law requires the descendants of Levi who become priests to collect a tenth from the people—that is, from their fellow Israelites—even though they also are descended from Abraham. 6 This man, however, did not trace his descent from Levi, yet he collected a tenth from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. 7 And without doubt the lesser is blessed by the greater. 8 In the one case, the tenth is collected by people who die; but in the other case, by him who is declared to be living. 9 One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham, 10 because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor.



Verse 8 says there, by him who is declared to be living..If you think about Melchizedek has passed on. Why does the Bible says "Living" then?

I submit to you, The context of this verse is talking about Jesus who = in the Order of Melchizedek forever. The tithe is to declare that Christ Live. If tithing is not important and matters not to God, it shouldn't even be mentioned in the New Testament, what more in the book of Hebrews.

Here is another.
Matthew 23:23 (NIV) - "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

Jesus emphasize both are important. To practice what is more important and also to tithe.

Too many times, people who oppose tithing will quote, it's only for the Israelite and will quote tithing is not money but Farm produces, etc. Today not all of us are farmers, hence we tithe with what we earned with our work, that is the same equivalent.
However Christians too often ignore Galatians 3:29 (NIV)  - If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Being An Abraham Seed means you are a spiritual Israelite hence tithing matters to you as well, you can be blessed according to Proverbs 3:9-10 and also Malachi as God tells us to Test Him.
I think the point is...if people don't want to accept tithing, they will say all kind thing even saying you won't find it in the New Testament ..but why is it, I can see it, it's mention in the NT by Jesus? 

I'll tell you why, for some people, money has in a way a hold on their life, can even go to the extend to say it's idolatry because they won't part their money, hoard it like there's no tomorrow..hence they like to hear all the "justification" not to tithe. but for me personally because I don't want money to be my God, one of the reason I tithe is to prove I can let go that 10% to God and honor his word and not just "talk" all my belonging  belongs to God. Some people like to talk so much but can't even let go 5%. (you and I know who le....the other "S" dude ) That to me is hypocrisy.

You may have your points, I will respect your Baptist Doctrine (correct me if I'm wrong) but I just find it hard to agree tithing is not required.
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First I am not Baptist lel

Second malchizedek and tith? Here is a write up from Stevan j Cole on malchizedek





Most of you would probably admit that you’re not highly motivated to learn about Melchizedek. You’ve got marriage problems, problems with your kids, financial problems, personal problems, and other practical needs. Why in the world would you be interested in learning about some obscure figure from many centuries ago named Melchizedek? “For crying out loud, Steve, it’s Mother’s Day! Give us a message that relates to mothers!” I believe that learning about Melchizedek will help you to be a better mother, father, child, or whatever role you are in. My aim is to convince you that you do need to know about this man.

To understand this, we need to put the chapter in its context. The Jewish Christians to whom this letter was addressed were tempted to abandon their Christian faith and return to Judaism under the threat of persecution. Some of them had lost their property and had suffered public reproach on account of their faith (10:32-34). They were thinking, “Hey, we didn’t have it so bad as Jews! The Jewish religion was a good system. It spelled out how we should live. The rituals were familiar and satisfying. It was the faith of our forefathers for many centuries. Maybe we should just go back to the way things were.”

To understand the pull of the past, we need to realize that religious traditions die hard! For over 20 years, Marla and I have read and prayed along with The Global Prayer Digest (published by the U.S. Center for World Mission). One thing that has repeatedly struck me as I’ve read it is how strongly entrenched religious traditions are. It will mention a people group where, many centuries ago, Islam took root and the culture is totally Islamic. For hundreds of years, generations have lived and died without questioning the religious traditions. These false religious views dominate their whole way of life. When missionaries try to penetrate these cultures with the gospel, they meet with strong resistance, because to accept the gospel would mean abandoning centuries of religious tradition.

The author of Hebrews was trying to convince people that a religious system of sacrifices, rituals, and rules that had been in place for over 1,400 years had now been replaced by a better way. He focuses on the supremacy of Jesus Christ, who is the fulfillment of all that was written by Moses and the Jewish prophets. He introduces a theme that is only treated in the Book of Hebrews, that Jesus Christ is our high priest.

We will only appreciate our need for a high priest to the degree that we realize how holy and unapproachable God is and how sinful and defiled we are. When Isaiah saw the Lord, sitting on His throne, lofty and exalted, surrounded by the seraphim who called out, “Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts,” the prophet was undone (Isa. 6:1-5). It devastated him because immediately he became aware of how utterly sinful he was, in contrast to God in His awesome holiness.

Israel in the wilderness had seen Moses go up on the mountain into the cloud, with lightning and thunder and a loud trumpet sound, and they were terrified. If the people got too close to the mountain, God warned that He would break forth upon them with a deadly plague (Exod. 19:10-25). The Jews knew that they could not saunter into the Holy of Holies to chat with God! Only the high priest could enter there, and only once a year, with blood. The Jewish people knew how desperately they needed a high priest if they were to approach God.

The author of Hebrews is making the point that Jesus is our high priest. But He is not just the fulfillment of the Levitical priesthood. He is something more, a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek. To view Him on a par with the Levitical priests would be to make a spiritually fatal mistake. That entire old system was designed to point ahead to Jesus Christ, who superceded and fulfilled it. To go back to the old way would be to abandon God’s only way of entrance into His holy presence. It would be to turn from the only One who can save us from our sins and go back to an inferior system. So the author here is saying,

You need to know about Melchizedek because he is a type of the Lord Jesus Christ, and you desperately need to know about Christ.

The author is picking up where he left off in 5:10, before his exhortation from 5:11-6:20. He wanted to discuss the significance of Melchizedek, but he could not do so because these people had become dull of hearing. He wants them to understand Melchizedek so that they can gain a deeper understanding of Jesus Christ. But Christ does not reveal Himself to those who are spiritually lazy or apathetic. Have you ever considered why Jesus did not do the Transfiguration in front of the multitudes? In fact, He didn’t even do it in front of the Twelve. He only took with Him Peter, James, and John to witness this astounding scene!

But to the multitudes, Jesus concealed His glory and spoke in parables, because they were spiritually dull (see Matt. 13:12-15). He only reveals His glory to those with whom He is intimate, and He is only intimate with those whose hearts are humbled before Him. And so as we approach these truths about Melchizedek as a type of Christ, we must make sure that our hearts are right before God.

Also, we must give some effort and attention to the matter of seeking to know Him. The only command in our text is, “observe how great this man [Melchizedek] was” (7:4). The Greek word means to gaze at or discern through careful observation. We get the word “theater” from it. We are to observe Melchizedek because he is a type of Jesus Christ, and we desire to see the beauty and glory of Jesus, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge (Col. 2:3). To see Him as He is, is a transforming experience (1 John 3:2). The solution to every problem that you face is to know Jesus Christ more accurately and intimately.

The flow of thought runs like this: In 7:1-3, the author identifies Melchizedek as both king and priest, without genealogy or end of days. In these ways, he is “made like the Son of God,” and remains a priest perpetually. The Son of God is not made like him, but he is made like the Son of God, presented in Scripture in such a way that he points to the truth about the Son of God.

Then, in 7:4-7, the author shows that Melchizedek is greater than Abraham, the father of the Jews and of all believers, in that Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek and he blessed Abraham. In 7:8-10, the author shows that Melchizedek was also greater than the Levitical priests (and the system they represented), in two ways: First, the Levitical priests were mortal, but Melchizedek “lives on” (7:8). Second, Levi, who received tithes, actually paid tithes to Melchizedek through Abraham, his forefather, when he paid tithes to Melchizedek (7:9-10). We can sum up these points under four headings that show how Melchizedek was a type of Jesus Christ:

1. Melchizedek is a type of Christ in the dignity of his person.

Everything we know about Melchizedek comes fromGenesis 14:18-20, Psalm 110:4, and Hebrews 7. The first text is historical, the second is prophetic, and the third is theological. Melchizedek was the king of Salem (probably Jerusalem [Ps. 76:2]) and priest of the Most High God. Abraham had gone after four kings that had taken his nephew Lot and his family captive when they raided Sodom, where Lot was living. Abraham defeated these kings, recovered all of the goods, and brought back Lot and his family. As Abraham returned from this battle, Melchizedek came out to meet him. He blessed Abraham and Abraham gave Melchizedek a tenth of his spoils.

Out of what that short account says and does not say, the author of Hebrews draws some amazing parallels between Melchizedek and Christ. It is interesting that he omits what seems to be an obvious parallel, that Melchizedek met Abraham with bread and wine! You would think, “That’s clearly a type of Christ giving bread and wine to the disciples!” In the original story, Melchizedek was bringing refreshment to Abraham and his weary men. But for some reason, the author of Hebrews passes over the easy parallel and focuses on some things that most of us would have missed.

The first thing to note is that Melchizedek was both a king and a priest in the same person (7:1), which was not allowed in Israel. You may be a king or you may be a priest, but you could not be both at once. John Calvin (Calvin’s Commentaries [Baker], Hebrews, p. 155) points out that it is remarkable that Melchizedek lived with Sodom on one side and the Canaanites on the other, and yet he was a righteous king and priest. This shows that God can raise up a godly witness for Himself when and where He pleases. Like Melchizedek, Jesus is both king and priest in one person.

The author makes the point (7:2) that Melchizedek “was first of all, by the translation of his name, king of righteousness, and then also king of Salem, which is king of peace.” In Hebrew, Melchi means “my king,” and zedek means “righteousness.” Salem is related toshalom, which means peace. The order is significant: righteousness comes before peace. A king cannot have true peace in his kingdom unless both he and his kingdom are righteous. Sin brings discord and strife. Righteousness is the foundation for peace.

Jesus is called “Jesus Christ the righteous” (1 John 2:1). He not only imputes and imparts righteousness to others; He is righteous in His very being. He never sinned, nor could any guilt be found in Him. He is the Lamb of God, unblemished and spotless (1 Pet. 1:19). He is “holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners” (Heb. 7:26). He did “no violence, nor was there any deceit in His mouth” (Isa. 53:9).

When He comes again to reign, “in righteousness” He will wage war against the wicked (Rev. 19:11). “With righteousness He will judge the poor…. And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked. Also righteousness will be the belt about His loins, and faithfulness the belt about His waist” (Isa. 11:4-5). “There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness from then on and forevermore” (Isa. 9:7).

Jesus is also the king of peace (Eph. 2:14-18). He brings peace between sinners and God, and peace among all that live under His lordship. Paul wrote, “Therefore, having been justified [“declared righteous”] by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Rom. 5:1). God did not lay aside His righteousness to make peace with sinners. Rather, He laid our penalty on His righteous substitute, “so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus” (Rom. 3:26).

If you know Jesus Christ as your King of righteousness and peace, you will be growing in righteous behavior and you will be pursuing peace with others (Rom. 14:17, 19). I am not talking aboutperfection, but rather, direction. You will be growing in conformity to your King.

2. Melchizedek is a type of Christ in the derivation and duration of his priesthood.

Being a priest in Israel was totally dependent on your family lineage. All priests came from the tribe of Levi. No one else need apply. If you could not establish your family heritage, you were excluded from the priesthood (Neh. 7:61-64). But Melchizedek was “without father, without mother, without genealogy” (Heb. 7:3). Yet he was “priest of the Most High God” (7:1).

A few have interpreted Melchizedek’s lack of genealogy and the next phrase, that he had “neither beginning of days nor end of life,” to mean that he was superhuman, either an angel or a preincarnate appearance of Jesus Christ. But the vast majority of commentators reject that interpretation and agree that Melchizedek was simply a great man who lived at the same time as Abraham.

The author of Hebrews is building an argument from the strange silence of Genesis. That book emphasizes genealogies and the number of years that the patriarchs lived. In the midst of this emphasis, seemingly out of nowhere, comes this man Melchizedek. His family lineage is never mentioned, nor does Genesis say anything about the length of his life or his death. The author is saying that the Holy Spirit deliberately omitted these facts from a book that emphasizes such, in order to make Melchizedek an appropriate type of Jesus Christ. That’s why he says that Melchizedek was “made like the Son of God” (7:3), rather than “Jesus was made like Melchizedek.” It is not that Melchizedek never died, but rather in what Genesis omits, that he “remains a priest perpetually.”

Jesus’ human lineage is given in Scripture, but He did not come from the priestly tribe of Levi, but from Judah (7:14). To be our high priest forever, Jesus had to be of a different priestly order, namely, that of Melchizedek. As the Son of God (that title is used deliberately in 7:3 to focus on Jesus’ deity; see also, 1:8), Jesus has no human lineage, and thus fulfills the type of Melchizedek as reported in Genesis. Also, the Levitical priests died and had to be replaced, but Jesus lives on in His high priesthood (7:23-24). So both in the derivation and in the duration of his priesthood, Melchizedek is a type of Jesus Christ.

3. Melchizedek is a type of Christ in the dimension of his priesthood.

Melchizedek was greater than both Abraham and Levi, since he received tithes from both of these great men. Abraham spontaneously recognized that this man represented God Most High, and so he gave him a tenth of his choicest spoils as an act of worship and gratitude toward God for granting him victory over the four kings. Levi, who was Abraham’s great-grandson, gave tithes to Melchizedek through Abraham’s tithes, in that he was still in Abraham’s loins when this took place. In Hebrew thought, an ancestor contained in him all of his descendants. Thus Paul argues that when Adam sinned, the entire human race sinned (Rom. 5:12). So here, the author says, “so to speak, through Abraham even Levi, who received tithes, paid tithes.”

Some (e.g., A. W. Pink) use this to argue that the principle of the tithe, giving God ten percent, transcends the Law of Moses. But Abraham only did this on one recorded occasion (as did Jacob, Gen. 28:22). The New Testament epistles never command believers to tithe, even when addressed to Gentile congregations that would have needed such instruction. Rather, the New Testament principle is that God owns everything that we are and have, and that we are to give as He has prospered us (1 Cor. 16:2;2 Cor. 8 & 9). We are stewards of His resources, and we will give an account of how we have used them to further His kingdom (Matt. 6:19-33; 25:14-30; Luke 16:1-13; 1 Tim. 6:17-19).

But the point of the typology between Melchizedek and the Son of God is that since Melchizedek, in receiving tithes from Abraham and Levi, was greater than these great men, Jesus is greater still. As our High Priest, He is worthy not just of a tithe, but of all that we are and have, because He bought us with His blood. No gifts that we give can compare with His matchless worth!

Thus Melchizedek is a type of Christ in the dignity of his person; in the derivation and duration of his priesthood; and, in the dimension of his priesthood. Finally,

4. Melchizedek is a type of Christ in the dispensing of his priesthood.

Even though Abraham was God’s chosen man and God promised to bless the nations through him, Melchizedek “blessed the one who had the promises. But without any dispute the lesser is blessed by the greater” (7:6-7). Scripture uses the term “blessing” in different ways. In one sense, we bless God (Ps. 103:1), which does not imply that we are greater than He! We bless others by praying for them or rendering kind words or service (Luke 6:28; 1 Pet. 3:9), which is mutual. But here the sense is that of the priestly (Num. 6:22-27) or fatherly (Gen. 27:27; 48:15) blessing, which was not mutual. The one imparting the blessing is conveying God’s blessing through His authority onto the one being blessed. Since Melchizedek pronounced God’s blessing on Abraham, he is greater than this great man who had God’s promises!

But Melchizedek is only a type of the one who is greater still, the Lord Jesus Christ. Herveus (a 12thcentury writer, cited by Philip Hughes, A Commentary on the Epistle to the Hebrews [Eerdmans], p. 251) applies the truth here to Christ by saying,

If Melchizedek, who was a sign and shadow, is preferred to Abraham and to all the levitical priests, how much more Christ, who is the truth and the substance! … If a type of Christ is greater than he who has the promises, how much more so is Christ himself!

If Melchizedek could bless Abraham, how much more is the Son of God ready and able to bless those who draw near to God through Him! If we want God’s blessings, we should seek them in Christ, because “as many as are the promises of God, in Him they are yes” (2 Cor. 1:20). What do you need from God? Eternal life? Yes! Forgiveness of sins? Yes! Inner peace? Yes! Hope? Yes! Joy in the midst of trials? Yes! Grace to endure? Yes! Victory over sin? Yes! Healing from past wounds? Yes! Jesus is the perfect high priest who dispenses God’s blessings to those who have His promises. Draw near to Him!

Conclusion

Two concluding applications: First, what you believe about Jesus Christ makes a huge difference! The Hebrews were in danger of falling away from the faith because they did not grasp how great Melchizedek is and therefore they did not grasp how much greater the One whom Melchizedek prefigured is.

As I have pointed out many times, the most important question in the world is Jesus’ question to the Twelve, “Who do you say that I am?” (See my sermons, “The Most Important Question in the World,” from Mark 8:27-33; and, “The Crucial Question,” from Luke 9:18-22.) That question has an objectively true answer. Your eternal destiny hinges on your response to that question. If you correctly say from your heart by faith, “Jesus Christ is the Son of God who gave Himself on the cross as the only sacrifice for my sins,” you have eternal life! If you diminish Jesus to a lesser role, such as, “He is a great moral example or teacher,” then you do not have the high priest that you need when you stand before God for judgment. Any teaching that diminishes the supremacy of Jesus Christ is false teaching!

Second, seek God continually and fervently in His Word to give you a greater knowledge of the beauty and glory of Jesus Christ. Paul’s lifelong quest as a believer was to “count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord” (Phil. 3:8). Samuel Ridout wrote,

As we see the glories of Christ contrasted with the shadows of the law and everything that was connected with an earthly priesthood, well might we say that if faith had apprehended the reality of what Christ was, they would gladly take not only the spoiling of their goods, but also the spoiling of all their earthly hopes, things that they had clung to as so dear before. Once let Christ be apprehended, once let the beauty of His character as our Priest and the blessedness of the place into which He had introduced us be laid hold of by the soul, and the things of earth which would hold us fast, a carnal religion and all else, will lose their hold, even as the leaves drop off the trees in autumn.

So why do you need to know about Melchizedek? Because he is one gateway that God has provided to tell you about Christ. If you want to endure hardship and even persecution, if you want God’s blessing on your family and in your personal life, if you want to resist temptation and live a righteous life, seek God for a clearer vision of the glory of Christ. When we are enthralled with Him, “the things of earth will grow strangely dim, in the light of His glory and grace” (Helen Lemmel, “Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus”).


SUSredisthcan
post Jul 5 2017, 10:47 AM

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Can Christianity accept (as in not condemn) a supernatural creature that is not God and not necessarily in league with God but is nevertheless benevolent and helpful towards mankind?
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 5 2017, 10:48 AM

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QUOTE(desmond2020 @ Jul 5 2017, 10:19 AM)
First I am not Baptist lel

Second malchizedek and tith? Here is a write up from Stevan j Cole on malchizedek
Most of you would probably admit that you’re not highly motivated to learn about Melchizedek. You’ve got marriage problems, problems with your kids, financial problems, personal problems, and other practical needs. Why in the world would you be interested in learning about some obscure figure from many centuries ago named Melchizedek? “For crying out loud, Steve, it’s Mother’s Day! Give us a message that relates to mothers!” I believe that learning about Melchizedek will help you to be a better mother, father, child, or whatever role you are in. My aim is to convince you that you do need to know about this man.

To understand this, we need to put the chapter in its context. The Jewish Christians to whom this letter was addressed were tempted to abandon their Christian faith and return to Judaism under the threat of persecution. Some of them had lost their property and had suffered public reproach on account of their faith (10:32-34). They were thinking, “Hey, we didn’t have it so bad as Jews! The Jewish religion was a good system. It spelled out how we should live. The rituals were familiar and satisfying. It was the faith of our forefathers for many centuries. Maybe we should just go back to the way things were.”

To understand the pull of the past, we need to realize that religious traditions die hard! For over 20 years, Marla and I have read and prayed along with The Global Prayer Digest (published by the U.S. Center for World Mission). One thing that has repeatedly struck me as I’ve read it is how strongly entrenched religious traditions are. It will mention a people group where, many centuries ago, Islam took root and the culture is totally Islamic. For hundreds of years, generations have lived and died without questioning the religious traditions. These false religious views dominate their whole way of life. When missionaries try to penetrate these cultures with the gospel, they meet with strong resistance, because to accept the gospel would mean abandoning centuries of religious tradition.

The author of Hebrews was trying to convince people that a religious system of sacrifices, rituals, and rules that had been in place for over 1,400 years had now been replaced by a better way. He focuses on the supremacy of Jesus Christ, who is the fulfillment of all that was written by Moses and the Jewish prophets. He introduces a theme that is only treated in the Book of Hebrews, that Jesus Christ is our high priest.

We will only appreciate our need for a high priest to the degree that we realize how holy and unapproachable God is and how sinful and defiled we are. When Isaiah saw the Lord, sitting on His throne, lofty and exalted, surrounded by the seraphim who called out, “Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts,” the prophet was undone (Isa. 6:1-5). It devastated him because immediately he became aware of how utterly sinful he was, in contrast to God in His awesome holiness.

Israel in the wilderness had seen Moses go up on the mountain into the cloud, with lightning and thunder and a loud trumpet sound, and they were terrified. If the people got too close to the mountain, God warned that He would break forth upon them with a deadly plague (Exod. 19:10-25). The Jews knew that they could not saunter into the Holy of Holies to chat with God! Only the high priest could enter there, and only once a year, with blood. The Jewish people knew how desperately they needed a high priest if they were to approach God.

The author of Hebrews is making the point that Jesus is our high priest. But He is not just the fulfillment of the Levitical priesthood. He is something more, a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek. To view Him on a par with the Levitical priests would be to make a spiritually fatal mistake. That entire old system was designed to point ahead to Jesus Christ, who superceded and fulfilled it. To go back to the old way would be to abandon God’s only way of entrance into His holy presence. It would be to turn from the only One who can save us from our sins and go back to an inferior system. So the author here is saying,

You need to know about Melchizedek because he is a type of the Lord Jesus Christ, and you desperately need to know about Christ.

The author is picking up where he left off in 5:10, before his exhortation from 5:11-6:20. He wanted to discuss the significance of Melchizedek, but he could not do so because these people had become dull of hearing. He wants them to understand Melchizedek so that they can gain a deeper understanding of Jesus Christ. But Christ does not reveal Himself to those who are spiritually lazy or apathetic. Have you ever considered why Jesus did not do the Transfiguration in front of the multitudes? In fact, He didn’t even do it in front of the Twelve. He only took with Him Peter, James, and John to witness this astounding scene!

But to the multitudes, Jesus concealed His glory and spoke in parables, because they were spiritually dull (see Matt. 13:12-15). He only reveals His glory to those with whom He is intimate, and He is only intimate with those whose hearts are humbled before Him. And so as we approach these truths about Melchizedek as a type of Christ, we must make sure that our hearts are right before God.

Also, we must give some effort and attention to the matter of seeking to know Him. The only command in our text is, “observe how great this man [Melchizedek] was” (7:4). The Greek word means to gaze at or discern through careful observation. We get the word “theater” from it. We are to observe Melchizedek because he is a type of Jesus Christ, and we desire to see the beauty and glory of Jesus, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge (Col. 2:3). To see Him as He is, is a transforming experience (1 John 3:2). The solution to every problem that you face is to know Jesus Christ more accurately and intimately.

The flow of thought runs like this: In 7:1-3, the author identifies Melchizedek as both king and priest, without genealogy or end of days. In these ways, he is “made like the Son of God,” and remains a priest perpetually. The Son of God is not made like him, but he is made like the Son of God, presented in Scripture in such a way that he points to the truth about the Son of God.

Then, in 7:4-7, the author shows that Melchizedek is greater than Abraham, the father of the Jews and of all believers, in that Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek and he blessed Abraham. In 7:8-10, the author shows that Melchizedek was also greater than the Levitical priests (and the system they represented), in two ways: First, the Levitical priests were mortal, but Melchizedek “lives on” (7:8). Second, Levi, who received tithes, actually paid tithes to Melchizedek through Abraham, his forefather, when he paid tithes to Melchizedek (7:9-10). We can sum up these points under four headings that show how Melchizedek was a type of Jesus Christ:

1. Melchizedek is a type of Christ in the dignity of his person.

Everything we know about Melchizedek comes fromGenesis 14:18-20, Psalm 110:4, and Hebrews 7. The first text is historical, the second is prophetic, and the third is theological. Melchizedek was the king of Salem (probably Jerusalem [Ps. 76:2]) and priest of the Most High God. Abraham had gone after four kings that had taken his nephew Lot and his family captive when they raided Sodom, where Lot was living. Abraham defeated these kings, recovered all of the goods, and brought back Lot and his family. As Abraham returned from this battle, Melchizedek came out to meet him. He blessed Abraham and Abraham gave Melchizedek a tenth of his spoils.

Out of what that short account says and does not say, the author of Hebrews draws some amazing parallels between Melchizedek and Christ. It is interesting that he omits what seems to be an obvious parallel, that Melchizedek met Abraham with bread and wine! You would think, “That’s clearly a type of Christ giving bread and wine to the disciples!” In the original story, Melchizedek was bringing refreshment to Abraham and his weary men. But for some reason, the author of Hebrews passes over the easy parallel and focuses on some things that most of us would have missed.

The first thing to note is that Melchizedek was both a king and a priest in the same person (7:1), which was not allowed in Israel. You may be a king or you may be a priest, but you could not be both at once. John Calvin (Calvin’s Commentaries [Baker], Hebrews, p. 155) points out that it is remarkable that Melchizedek lived with Sodom on one side and the Canaanites on the other, and yet he was a righteous king and priest. This shows that God can raise up a godly witness for Himself when and where He pleases. Like Melchizedek, Jesus is both king and priest in one person.

The author makes the point (7:2) that Melchizedek “was first of all, by the translation of his name, king of righteousness, and then also king of Salem, which is king of peace.” In Hebrew, Melchi means “my king,” and zedek means “righteousness.” Salem is related toshalom, which means peace. The order is significant: righteousness comes before peace. A king cannot have true peace in his kingdom unless both he and his kingdom are righteous. Sin brings discord and strife. Righteousness is the foundation for peace.

Jesus is called “Jesus Christ the righteous” (1 John 2:1). He not only imputes and imparts righteousness to others; He is righteous in His very being. He never sinned, nor could any guilt be found in Him. He is the Lamb of God, unblemished and spotless (1 Pet. 1:19). He is “holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners” (Heb. 7:26). He did “no violence, nor was there any deceit in His mouth” (Isa. 53:9).

When He comes again to reign, “in righteousness” He will wage war against the wicked (Rev. 19:11). “With righteousness He will judge the poor…. And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked. Also righteousness will be the belt about His loins, and faithfulness the belt about His waist” (Isa. 11:4-5). “There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness from then on and forevermore” (Isa. 9:7).

Jesus is also the king of peace (Eph. 2:14-18). He brings peace between sinners and God, and peace among all that live under His lordship. Paul wrote, “Therefore, having been justified [“declared righteous”] by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Rom. 5:1). God did not lay aside His righteousness to make peace with sinners. Rather, He laid our penalty on His righteous substitute, “so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus” (Rom. 3:26).

If you know Jesus Christ as your King of righteousness and peace, you will be growing in righteous behavior and you will be pursuing peace with others (Rom. 14:17, 19). I am not talking aboutperfection, but rather, direction. You will be growing in conformity to your King.

2. Melchizedek is a type of Christ in the derivation and duration of his priesthood.

Being a priest in Israel was totally dependent on your family lineage. All priests came from the tribe of Levi. No one else need apply. If you could not establish your family heritage, you were excluded from the priesthood (Neh. 7:61-64). But Melchizedek was “without father, without mother, without genealogy” (Heb. 7:3). Yet he was “priest of the Most High God” (7:1).

A few have interpreted Melchizedek’s lack of genealogy and the next phrase, that he had “neither beginning of days nor end of life,” to mean that he was superhuman, either an angel or a preincarnate appearance of Jesus Christ. But the vast majority of commentators reject that interpretation and agree that Melchizedek was simply a great man who lived at the same time as Abraham.

The author of Hebrews is building an argument from the strange silence of Genesis. That book emphasizes genealogies and the number of years that the patriarchs lived. In the midst of this emphasis, seemingly out of nowhere, comes this man Melchizedek. His family lineage is never mentioned, nor does Genesis say anything about the length of his life or his death. The author is saying that the Holy Spirit deliberately omitted these facts from a book that emphasizes such, in order to make Melchizedek an appropriate type of Jesus Christ. That’s why he says that Melchizedek was “made like the Son of God” (7:3), rather than “Jesus was made like Melchizedek.” It is not that Melchizedek never died, but rather in what Genesis omits, that he “remains a priest perpetually.”

Jesus’ human lineage is given in Scripture, but He did not come from the priestly tribe of Levi, but from Judah (7:14). To be our high priest forever, Jesus had to be of a different priestly order, namely, that of Melchizedek. As the Son of God (that title is used deliberately in 7:3 to focus on Jesus’ deity; see also, 1:8), Jesus has no human lineage, and thus fulfills the type of Melchizedek as reported in Genesis. Also, the Levitical priests died and had to be replaced, but Jesus lives on in His high priesthood (7:23-24). So both in the derivation and in the duration of his priesthood, Melchizedek is a type of Jesus Christ.

3. Melchizedek is a type of Christ in the dimension of his priesthood.

Melchizedek was greater than both Abraham and Levi, since he received tithes from both of these great men. Abraham spontaneously recognized that this man represented God Most High, and so he gave him a tenth of his choicest spoils as an act of worship and gratitude toward God for granting him victory over the four kings. Levi, who was Abraham’s great-grandson, gave tithes to Melchizedek through Abraham’s tithes, in that he was still in Abraham’s loins when this took place. In Hebrew thought, an ancestor contained in him all of his descendants. Thus Paul argues that when Adam sinned, the entire human race sinned (Rom. 5:12). So here, the author says, “so to speak, through Abraham even Levi, who received tithes, paid tithes.”

Some (e.g., A. W. Pink) use this to argue that the principle of the tithe, giving God ten percent, transcends the Law of Moses. But Abraham only did this on one recorded occasion (as did Jacob, Gen. 28:22). The New Testament epistles never command believers to tithe, even when addressed to Gentile congregations that would have needed such instruction. Rather, the New Testament principle is that God owns everything that we are and have, and that we are to give as He has prospered us (1 Cor. 16:2;2 Cor. 8 & 9). We are stewards of His resources, and we will give an account of how we have used them to further His kingdom (Matt. 6:19-33; 25:14-30; Luke 16:1-13; 1 Tim. 6:17-19).

But the point of the typology between Melchizedek and the Son of God is that since Melchizedek, in receiving tithes from Abraham and Levi, was greater than these great men, Jesus is greater still. As our High Priest, He is worthy not just of a tithe, but of all that we are and have, because He bought us with His blood. No gifts that we give can compare with His matchless worth!

Thus Melchizedek is a type of Christ in the dignity of his person; in the derivation and duration of his priesthood; and, in the dimension of his priesthood. Finally,

4. Melchizedek is a type of Christ in the dispensing of his priesthood.

Even though Abraham was God’s chosen man and God promised to bless the nations through him, Melchizedek “blessed the one who had the promises. But without any dispute the lesser is blessed by the greater” (7:6-7). Scripture uses the term “blessing” in different ways. In one sense, we bless God (Ps. 103:1), which does not imply that we are greater than He! We bless others by praying for them or rendering kind words or service (Luke 6:28; 1 Pet. 3:9), which is mutual. But here the sense is that of the priestly (Num. 6:22-27) or fatherly (Gen. 27:27; 48:15) blessing, which was not mutual. The one imparting the blessing is conveying God’s blessing through His authority onto the one being blessed. Since Melchizedek pronounced God’s blessing on Abraham, he is greater than this great man who had God’s promises!

But Melchizedek is only a type of the one who is greater still, the Lord Jesus Christ. Herveus (a 12thcentury writer, cited by Philip Hughes, A Commentary on the Epistle to the Hebrews [Eerdmans], p. 251) applies the truth here to Christ by saying,

If Melchizedek, who was a sign and shadow, is preferred to Abraham and to all the levitical priests, how much more Christ, who is the truth and the substance! … If a type of Christ is greater than he who has the promises, how much more so is Christ himself!

If Melchizedek could bless Abraham, how much more is the Son of God ready and able to bless those who draw near to God through Him! If we want God’s blessings, we should seek them in Christ, because “as many as are the promises of God, in Him they are yes” (2 Cor. 1:20). What do you need from God? Eternal life? Yes! Forgiveness of sins? Yes! Inner peace? Yes! Hope? Yes! Joy in the midst of trials? Yes! Grace to endure? Yes! Victory over sin? Yes! Healing from past wounds? Yes! Jesus is the perfect high priest who dispenses God’s blessings to those who have His promises. Draw near to Him!

Conclusion

Two concluding applications: First, what you believe about Jesus Christ makes a huge difference! The Hebrews were in danger of falling away from the faith because they did not grasp how great Melchizedek is and therefore they did not grasp how much greater the One whom Melchizedek prefigured is.

As I have pointed out many times, the most important question in the world is Jesus’ question to the Twelve, “Who do you say that I am?” (See my sermons, “The Most Important Question in the World,” from Mark 8:27-33; and, “The Crucial Question,” from Luke 9:18-22.) That question has an objectively true answer. Your eternal destiny hinges on your response to that question. If you correctly say from your heart by faith, “Jesus Christ is the Son of God who gave Himself on the cross as the only sacrifice for my sins,” you have eternal life! If you diminish Jesus to a lesser role, such as, “He is a great moral example or teacher,” then you do not have the high priest that you need when you stand before God for judgment. Any teaching that diminishes the supremacy of Jesus Christ is false teaching!

Second, seek God continually and fervently in His Word to give you a greater knowledge of the beauty and glory of Jesus Christ. Paul’s lifelong quest as a believer was to “count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord” (Phil. 3:8). Samuel Ridout wrote,

As we see the glories of Christ contrasted with the shadows of the law and everything that was connected with an earthly priesthood, well might we say that if faith had apprehended the reality of what Christ was, they would gladly take not only the spoiling of their goods, but also the spoiling of all their earthly hopes, things that they had clung to as so dear before. Once let Christ be apprehended, once let the beauty of His character as our Priest and the blessedness of the place into which He had introduced us be laid hold of by the soul, and the things of earth which would hold us fast, a carnal religion and all else, will lose their hold, even as the leaves drop off the trees in autumn.

So why do you need to know about Melchizedek? Because he is one gateway that God has provided to tell you about Christ. If you want to endure hardship and even persecution, if you want God’s blessing on your family and in your personal life, if you want to resist temptation and live a righteous life, seek God for a clearer vision of the glory of Christ. When we are enthralled with Him, “the things of earth will grow strangely dim, in the light of His glory and grace” (Helen Lemmel, “Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus”).
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Do you want the Bible to record every occasion of tithing? to quote it's a one off thing is rather a flimsy argument. Even the Bible says if it were to record every miracles...all the books in this world would not be enough.

desmond2020
post Jul 5 2017, 11:03 AM

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Joined: Jun 2005


QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 5 2017, 08:27 AM)
One thing about John MacArthur, He doesn't believe in healing. What God is doing today defy his doctrine.

I rather see God as how define by his word in the Bible not define by doctrine written by Man.

The problem with Christianity today, some of us are too dependant on who is the teacher (Man) rather than to look to the Holy Spirit the original teacher of the Bible.
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John Macarthur don't believe about healing? Strong word here


To be fair, let read what he said


In our ongoing study of the Charismatic movement today, I wanna jump right in to a subject that I know I can't completely cover, but I want you to learn to think biblically about this because I'm very concerned about it. Today, we hear an awful lot of talk about miracles, somebody says, "I had a financial need and a miracle happened. The mailman came and in the mail was a check for just the amount of money I needed. It was a miracle." Or you hear someone say, "I went to the mall and there was a parking place right by the entrance. It was a miracle." Or a mother might sense something wrong in an adjoining room and investigate just in time to stop her little toddler from putting a paper clip into an electrical outlet, and say, "It's a miracle." Or maybe you were thinking and praying for somebody and just seemingly at the time you were doing that, the phone rang and it was the very person you were thinking about, and they were right there to be encouraged and you say, "That was a miracle." Well, we call those things miracles, but they're not miracles. A miracle is a supernatural event which has no human explanation. More than that, a miracle is a supernatural event which suspends natural law. In other words, natural law stops and is suspended while God acts, moves back out and then the natural course continues. When you find a place to park at the mall or when you catch your little toddler just at the right moment, or when you get a check for what you needed, or when a friend calls at precisely the right moment in time, those would be acts of providence, those would be acts whereby God is simply orchestrating natural events, not suspending the natural, but controlling the natural so that it does what He wants it to do.

A miracle then is an extraordinary event wrought by God that cannot be explained by any natural means. That would be the technical definition. It might sound something like this. A miracle is an event in nature so extraordinary in itself and so coinciding with the prophecy or command of a religious teacher or leader as fully to warrant the conviction on the part of those who witness it, that God has wrought it with the design of certifying that this teacher or leader has been commissioned by him. Now, that takes us to another dimension, and I wanted to read that. That's from Augustus Strong written way back in 1907, and what he is saying there is that anytime a miracle occurs, it is associated with the certification of a teacher or a leader commissioned by God.

Theologians prior of course to the Charismatic movement, the Pentecostal movement and this century, were united in the understanding that miracles did not happen randomly, they did not happen through history in a willy-nilly sort of way. God did not do them capriciously or whimsically. There wasn't a continual flow of miracles at all times and places through church history, but rather, miracles, that is God stepping in to the natural world, suspending natural law, doing something that had no natural explanation, pulling back out again and letting natural law then run its course, did that only in certification of especially commissioned teacher.

In fact, miracles in Scripture, all the way from Exodus through Deuteronomy to Nehemiah through the Psalms, Jeremiah, Daniel, into the New Testament, Matthew, Mark, John, Acts, Romans, 2 Corinthians, Thessalonians and Hebrews, miracles are called signs and wonders. They are signs, and what are signs for? A sign is to point to something, and what were they signs of? They were signs authenticating a divinely commissioned teacher. When God supernaturally, superhumanly suspended natural law and acted in human history, He did so as a sign to point to a teacher who was speaking for Him.

I've collected through the years a very large file of supposed miracles. They range all the way from 1977's newspaper article about Maria Rubio of Lake Arthur, New Mexico who was frying tortillas in her kitchen. She noticed that one of them seemed to have the likeness of a face etched in the burn marks. She concluded that it was Jesus and even built a crude shrine to the tortilla. Thousands of people visited the shrine of the Jesus of the holy tortilla and concluded it was indeed a miracle. "I do not why this has happened to me," Mrs. Rubio said, "but God has come into my life through this tortilla." From the Chicago Tribune. In 1980, in Deptford, New Jersey, Bud Ward, the town's fire department photographer was driving with his wife when he accidentally took a wrong turn. Noticing flames in an abandoned chicken coop behind the Naples Pizzeria, he pulled into the parking lot and began taking pictures. When the slides came back from Kmart, Ward's nine year old daughter noticed what seemed to be an image of Christ in one of the photographs. Word of this discovery spread and soon people from all over New Jersey were talking about the pizza Jesus of Deptford Township. Several people knelt and prayed under the image projected from the slide and others asked that the image be projected onto their chests. Hundreds believed it was a true miracle. Again, according to the GloucesterTimes.

Such apparitions are seen as miracles. In August of 1986, in Postoria, Ohio, the image of Jesus seemed to appear every night in the shadows and rust marks on the side of a soybean oil storage tank. Hawkers sold thousands of, "I saw the vision," t-shirts and coffee mugs to those who came to see the miracle. Nearly a year later, Arlene Gardner of Estill Springs, Tennessee, noticed that when her neighbors turned on their porch light, the image of a face appeared in the glow reflected off her freezer. She believed it was the face of Jesus, although several observers said it looked more like Willy Nelson. Arlene and her husband were so convinced it was a true miracle they quit the church when the pastor expressed skepticism.

Well, evidently, skepticism is a rare commodity these days. People's hunger for the mysterious and the astonishing and phenomena is a little unsurpassed in the history of the church. It's pretty popular stuff in the secular world and it's found its way into the church. Eager to witness miracles, many people seem willing to believe that almost anything unusual is a genuine heavenly wonder. The problem with that is it poses a severe danger for the church because it plays right into the hands of Satan, doesn't it? False wonders and false signs, false miracles, extremely believable ones, the Bible tells us will be the primary tool of Satan in the end times. Jesus said, "False Christ and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders so as to mislead if possible even the elect." Then He added as if knowing that many would ignore the warning, "Behold, I have told you in advance," Matthew 24:24-25.

Surely, in the light of the warning of Jesus and the warnings of the apostle Paul in the New Testament, we should have a healthy skepticism on the part of these supposed miracles. Now, I want you to understand. I am not by nature a skeptic. I am not a naturalist and a humanist and an anti-super naturalist. I believe in miracles, and I believe that every miracle recorded in the Bible literally happened exactly as the Bible described it. I believe, for example, that Moses and the Israelites actually walked through the parted Red Sea and didn't get their feet wet or muddy. I believe that Elijah raised a widow's young son from the dead and that fire called down from Heaven was actually heavenly fire and consumed water. I believe with absolute conviction that Elijah made an axe head float, an iron axe head. I believe that all the healings, miracles, signs and wonders attributed to Jesus and the four Gospels happened exactly and precisely as they are recorded there, and I believe the apostles literally performed all the miracles which the New Testament described. That's not all. I believe God can still do miracles. I believe all things are possible with God, as Matthew 19:26 says. "His power has not diminished in the least since the days of the early church."

But even though I believe all of that, and I believe that if God chooses to do something miraculous, He can do it. I am convinced that most of the miracle signs and wonders, if not all, being claimed today in the Charismatic movement, have nothing in common with what we know about Biblical miracles. They do not fit the Biblical criteria. And I am persuaded by both Scripture and history that nothing like the New Testament gift of miracles, noted in 1 Corinthians chapter 12 is operating today. The Holy Spirit has not given any modern day Christians miraculous gifts comparable to those He gave the apostles.

Now, in spite of that, many Charismatics are making quite remarkable claims. Oral Roberts, for example, speaking at the Charismatic Bible Ministry Conference in 1987 said, and I quote, "I can't tell you about all the dead people I've raised. I've had to stop a sermon, go back and raise a dead person." No less in authority than Dr. C. Peter Wagner, professor of church growth at Fuller Seminary, School of World Mission, believes such things do happen, and I quote him, "I too, now believe that dead people are literally being raised in the world today. As soon as I say that some ask if I believe it is normative. I doubt it would be normative in any local situation, but it probably is normative in terms of the universal body of Christ. Even though it is an extremely uncommon event, I would not be surprised if it were happening several times a year," end quote. John Wimber of the Vineyard lists raising the dead as one of the basic elements of any healing ministry.

Now, with the supposed large number of people being raised from the dead, you would imagine that somebody could manage to come up with one who could give testimony to the validity. But not one modern occurrence of raising the dead can be verified. Say, what about Oral Roberts' claim that he's raised many people? Well, he was challenged to produce the names and addresses of the people he raised, and he balked. Later, he recalled only one incident more than 20 years before when he had supposedly raised a dead child in front of 10,000 witnesses, "During healing service," he recalled, "a mother in the audience jumped up and shouted, 'My baby's dead.'" Roberts said he prayed over the child and, "It jerked, it jerked in my hand." Roberts conceded that neither that child nor others he said he had brought to life had been pronounced clinically dead. "I understand," he hedged, "there's a difference in a person dying and not breathing and a person being clinically dead." Well, what are we supposed to make out that confusion? It's certainly a far cry from Jesus raising Lazarus who had been four days in the grave. And if this Dr. Wagner supposes dead people are literally being raised several times a year, wouldn't it be reasonable to expect that he would bring one along so we could meet him or her. The truth is those who claim miracles today are not able to substantiate their claims. And like the miracles in the New Testament which were usually done with large crowds of unbelievers watching who would be skeptical, modern miracles typically happen either privately or in some religious meeting where there are a lot of people who are in a wild kind of frenzy expecting a miracle where it's a lot easier to fabricate one in the imagination.

And the types of miracles that are being claimed today are absolutely nothing like New Testament miracles, absolutely nothing like them. In fact, the types of miracles today could be distinctly seen as different than New Testament miracles. Jesus and the apostles instantly and completely healed people born blind, a paralytic, a man with a withered arm. All obvious and disputable miracles, even Jesus' enemies didn't challenge the reality of His miracles that He had the people there to verify them. He raised the dead, of course, as we well know. They never did a miracle that was slow, they never did a miracle that took time, they never did a miracle that was less than permanent. By contrast, most modern miracles are partial, gradual, temporary, sometimes reversed, and almost impossible to verify.

And the only instant miracles today seem to be those that deal with psycho-somatic diseases. People with visible disabilities are rarely if ever helped at all by modern faith healers. I recently watched a televangelist interview a man he had supposedly healed of lameness. The man said he was free from his wheelchair for the first time in several years, however, the man was walking with crutches and had heavy braces on his legs. That's not a miracle at all like any in the Scripture. No modern miracle worker claims the kind of unequivocal success seen in the ministry of Christ and His apostles.

Now, there are some in the Charismatic movement who try to defend the supposed miracles which are not verifiable by saying that Jesus Christ is same yesterday, today and forever, so it's the same Jesus today. The Holy Spirit is still with us today and therefore, with Him, we have the age of miracles. David Du Plessiswho is sort of the patriarch of the movement, who has been called Mr. Pentecost, believed, he's dead now, that the age of miracles never ended and that we're still in the age of miracles, and that he said that the miracles and events described in the book of Acts should be normative throughout the church's history. And it is that view that most Pentecostals and Charismatics hold. That whatever the Holy Spirit did in the past, He is still doing now; that miracles go on and on as long as there is the Holy Spirit. They say the Holy Spirit never changed. They say the early church changed. It became doctrinal, it became formal, it became ritualistic, and so the Holy Spirit pulled back His power and now after nearly 2,000 years, He's released it again. The thing that always amazes me is if the Holy Spirit were going to release His power, why would He release it to authenticate the people who teach bad theology? If He wanted to authenticate anybody with miracles, you could be sure it would be those who were the truest and the purest and the most profound and Biblical and the most skilled and dedicated teachers of the Word of God who were teaching the truth.

Many Pentecostals and Charismatics talk about the restoration of the New Testament Holy Spirit power through their movement. They say they're doing again what the apostles did in the first century. Is that true? If so, why do modern revelations, visions, tongues, healings and miracles differ so dramatically from those done by the apostles? And why is it that they're associated with people who do not understand properly the truth of God? And if miracles and signs and wonders are so vital, then why is it that for nearly 2,000 years the Holy Spirit didn't do any? You mean there weren't even a few people around who would have been worthy of such? Should Christians today expect miracles? Is Oral Roberts right when he says, "Everyone of you out there should expect your miracle today"? Are we supposed to be able to do miracles, heal people, raise the dead?

Well, in answer to all of this, we need to take a look at Scripture and I wanna give you just a fast look, overview at this matter of miracles that I think will set your thinking in the right frame. Most Biblical miracles happened in one of three relatively brief periods of Biblical history. You need to note this. Most Biblical miracles happened in three relatively brief periods of Bible history, the days of Moses and Joshua, during the ministries of Elijah and Elisha and thirdly, in the time of Christ and the apostles. None of those periods lasted much more than 100 years. Each of them, each of the three experienced a proliferation of miracles unheard of at other times in God's redemptive history. But even during those three times, miracles were not just normal, every day occurrences that happened to anybody and everybody. The miracles that did happen in the time of Moses and Joshua involved Moses and Joshua. The miracles that happened in the time of Elijah and Elisha happened around the ministries of Elijah and Elisha. And the miracles that happened to Christ and the apostles and through them, happened through their ministries. There weren't just miracles happening all over everywhere to all kinds of people.

And aside from those three intervals, the only other miracles recorded in Scripture are very, very isolated events. It is true in the days of Isaiah, the Lord miraculously defeated Sennacherib army, then healed Hezakiah and turned the sun's shadow back, 2 Kings 19:20. It is true in the days of Daniel, God miraculously preserved Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego in the furnace, Daniel 3. But those are very uncommon and very unusual. It is true that God did miraculously preserve Jonah in the belly of a great fish. But for the most part, those are very isolated, and miracles that those didn't happen to God's people as a course of life.

Now, God of course, at any time can inject Himself into the human stream supernaturally and do a miracle. But He chose to limit Himself primarily to three periods of history, and very rarely will you ever find a miracle in the times in between. The rest of the time, God just works through providence, doesn't need a miracle, He can work through providence. The reason He did a miracle is because a miracle can only be attributed to God. It can only be explained supernaturally and there were times when that was crucial.

Let me give you some points. Three characteristics of the miracles in Scripture will help you understand this. One, miracles introduced new eras of revelation. Miracles introduced new eras of revelation. All three of those periods of miracles were times when God gave His written revelation. Moses and Joshua, the time of the giving of the law. Elijah and Elisha introduced the prophetic office, the prophetic age, and all of the books of prophecy, major prophets and minor prophets. The New Testament obviously, Christ did miracles, the apostles did miracles. That introduced the era of the New Testament revelation. So, whenever God was going to pour out His Word, He wanted to certify certain prophets and teachers of His Word, to authenticate them.

Moses was given the power to do certain miracles that people might know he spoke as God's spokesman. There was no other way to explain what God used him to do other than God was doing it and therefore, this was God's man and when he spoke, he spoke for God. And the same was true in Joshua's case when he wrote his book.

You come to Elijah and Elisha and the miracles that attended their ministry as they were the prophets of God, and they were introducing a very long era of prophetic literature. As God revealed through the prophets of which really they were sort of the introducers. And even if those rare miracles that occurred in other eras involve people who were used by God to write Scripture. Hezakiah's healing involved Isaiah. The three men in the fiery furnace involved Daniel. Those two were what we call major prophets who spoke and wrote for God. Moses performed many miracles in an attempt to convince Pharaoh to let the people of Israel go, to convince Pharaoh that this was not some normal man. This was not some natural man, but this was God's man who spoke for God.

Miracles seem to accompany the Israelites on the their journey out of Egypt and miracles came in their journey through the wilderness to remind the people of God that God was their God and that Moses was God's spokesman. How else would they know who to listen to? They certainly didn't want to listen to Aaron or anybody else. And even when God gave His law to Moses on the mount, Moses' encounter with God was accompanied by signs so dramatic, fire, smoke, a trumpet, a thundering voice, that even Moses himself knew it was the voice of God and Hebrews 12 says he was fearful. And thus began the first period of revelation. And Moses recorded the truth of the Pentateuch, the five books, and Joshua wrote the book that bears his name.

Other books were added intermittently after the time of Moses and Joshua, Samuel probably wrote Judges and 1 and 2 Samuel. David wrote the Psalms, Solomon penned most of the wisdom literature, but those books were not accompanied by the great outpouring of miracles that had distinguished the days Moses and Joshua. They were kind of a continuation in some ways of that revelatory era.

Second major cluster of miraculous events accompanied a new era of Biblical revelation, the age of the Old Testament prophets. Following Solomon's reign, a nation of Israel divided into the northern kingdom Israel, a southern king of Judah. The northern kingdom quickly deteriorated because of idolatry and hit a low point under King Ahab. You remember his wife Jezebel. At that time God raised up two spokesmen, Elijah and Elisha. The prophetic office in their lifetime was marked by dramatic miracles to certify them as the spokesmen for God and to call back the people to God. The prophets that followed them were the continuation of that era.

Then when that era closed out and the Old Testament was done, there was a 400 year period of silence in which no prophet spoke for God and no miracle is recorded to have occurred. Then came the New Testament and the first miracle was a virgin birth, and then the miracles began to flow out of the life of Christ, and then began to flow out of His apostles. Why? Because it was a new era of writing the revelation of God, the New Testament. Always, the miracles were associated with a certification of those who were giving us God's revelation.

Second point, and that is the point we just led into. Miracles authenticated the messengers of Revelation. They only happened in three eras and they authenticated the messengers of Revelation. Elijah raised the widow's dead son and what was the widow's reply? Verse 24 of 1 Kings 17, she said, "Now I know that you are a man of God and that the Word of the Lord in your mouth is truth." That's a very important verse. That's the whole purpose, so that anybody listening to Elijah would know this man is a man of God and in his mouth is the Word of the Lord and it is true.

You come into the New Testament of John 10, Jesus having a confrontation with the Jewish religious leaders. They challenged Him. "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you're the Christ, tell us plainly." Jesus said, "I told you and you don't believe. The works that I do in my Father's Name, these bear witness of Me." He was saying, "The miraculous works that I do authenticate Me and My message as being from God."

In his Pentecost sermon, Peter told the crowd that Jesus was a man attested to them by God with miracles, wonders and signs. And the same kind of power belonged to the apostles. You'll remember that on Paul's first missionary journey, he and Barnabas were ministering in Aconium and it says they were speaking boldly with reliance on the Lord who was bearing witness to the word of His grace, granting that signs and wonders be done by their hands. The love of that is always the intention of the miracle. God does not need to do miracles for everybody to accomplish His will. He does not need to do miracles for every Christian every day to prove His love. He does not need to do miracles every day to make people believe He exists. He only authenticates the Word and when the authenticated Word is revealed, there is no need any longer to authenticate a preacher. You can find out whether he speaks for God by comparing him with this.

And God can still control everything without ever doing a miracle through providence. It's foolish to assume that everybody should be able to do a miracle, that we can go to a seminar in four days and learn how to do miracles. It's equally foolish to assume that God's gonna do miracles for you every day. People who keep saying they saw this miracle and that miracle have got caught up in the fact that everything is a miracle and their definition of miracles lacks greatly Biblical parameters.

The apostles performed miracles, signs and wonders in Acts 5. Why? To call attention to the fact that they were supernatural servants of the living God who spoke the truth. In Acts 15, it says the whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the miraculous signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. These things that mark an apostle, signs and wonders and miracles, Paul said to the Corinthians, were done among you. They mark an apostle.

Moses, Joshua introduced an era of revelation. Elijah, Elisha introduced an era of revelation. Jesus and the apostles introduced an era of revelation and with all the spokesmen and no written Word, with all the spokesmen, God had to authenticate the right spokesman and so He gave them the power to do supernatural things in order that people might know this is no human, mortal teacher. This is a man of God who speaks the truth.

Thirdly, and tied right in with the others. Miracles are designed to call attention to the revelation. Miracles are designed to call attention to the revelation. God did the miracle so the people would listen to the Word and see it as His truth. The miracle didn't stand alone, that's the point. God doesn't do miracles for miracles' sake. The purpose of the miracle was the effect of the miracle. For example, the miracles Moses did in Egypt were meant to enlighten two groups, the Israelites and the Egyptians. In Exodus 7, we read about Moses' first miracles and it was then that the Israelites started to believe in the power of their God. Pharaoh was a hard case. He didn't believe until the tenth miracle, the death angel. Then he finally let them go. But the purpose of the miracle was not just to stand on its own, but the purpose of the miracle was to get people to understand that God had something to say.

The miracles of Elijah and Elisha were effective in convincing both believers and unbelievers that what these men spoke was the Word of God and graphic illustration of that can be seen in 1 Kings 18 where Elijah defeated 400 prophets of Baal before a large crowd of Israelites and the Scripture says, "When all the people saw it, they fell on their faces, they said, 'The Lord, He is God. The Lord, He is God.'" They believed.

In the New Testament, miracles and signs were again used to confirm believers and convince unbelievers. John said the miracles of Jesus were done so that, "You might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and believing you might have life in His Name." And the same was true with the apostolic miracles.

Only three eras always to authenticate those who spoke the revelation of God and always with the purpose of pointing to the revelation so that it is the revelation that is the important thing. Beloved, I submit to you that if you have this book in your hand, you have what is the end product of God's miraculous intervention. This is the purpose for which He did the miracles. You posses this, you don't need the miracles. You have what God intended them to produce, and that is why Jesus said it as simply as it could be said, "If they do not believe Moses and the prophets," that is Scripture, "they will not believe though someone be raised from the dead." You must remember the people of Israel who saw the miracles of Moses, the whole generation died in the wilderness in what? Unbelief. You must remember that the people who heard the prophets speak for God for the most part refuse to believe. One whole kingdom apostatized, the northern kingdom, and in the southern, only a remnant. All those who saw the miracles of Jesus did not believe. Only a small group, and when it came down to it in the book of Acts, there were 120 of them dedicated enough to believing the Lord that they were waiting for the coming of the Holy Spirit.

Miracles have never produced wholesale belief. They can't. They are intended to point to the truth and it is the truth which produces faith. Of course, as the Spirit energizes it. Now the question comes, are miracles necessary today? When the Old and New Testament were completed, God's revelation was finished. Through many signs and wonders, He has authenticated the voracity of this book. Anybody who reads it can see that it's true.

Does God have to keep doing miracles? Is there a need for ongoing miracles to substantiate the Bible? Should everybody with faith claim a miracle? Does God do miracles on demand? Are the phenomena that are occurring today hail to signs and wonders and healings really necessary and authentic? The answer to all those questions is no. Nothing in Scripture indicates that the miracles of the apostles' age were meant to be continuous. You keep reading in the book of Acts and you'll get to the part in the book of Acts where you finally say to yourself, "I haven't read a miracle in a long time," and you'll finish the whole book and never see another one. They had begun to cease even during the book of Acts.

Charismatic believe that the spectacular, miraculous gifts were given for the edification of believers. Does God's Word support that? No. They were not given for the edification for believers. They were not give to edify Christians. They are a sign for those who do not believe, for those who need to see that this is God's Word. Whether you're talking about tongues or healings or miracles, they served as signs to authenticate an era in which God was giving new revelation and people needed to listen. B.B. Warfield, that great Presbyterian professor, a past generation, writing in 1898, said, "Miracles do not appear on the pages vagrantly, here, there and elsewhere indifferently without a signable reason. They belong to revelation periods and appear only when God is speaking to His people through accredited messengers, declaring His gracious purpose. Their abundant display in the apostolic church is the mark of the richness of the apostolic age in revelation." You realize, don't you, that between 36 and 95, all 27 books of the New Testament were written and so there was a proliferation of authentication because of the vast volume of literature being revealed in a brief period of time. Warfield goes on, "When this revelation period closed, the period miracle working had past by also as a mere matter of course. God the Holy Spirit has made it His subsequent work not to introduce new and unneeded revelations into the world, but to diffuse this one complete revelation through the world and to bring mankind into the saving knowledge of it."

Abraham Kuiper, B.B. Warfield actually wrote in 1918, Kuiper wrote this in 1898. Abraham Kuiper, the Dutch theologian writes, "It has not been God's way to communicate to each and every man a separate store of divine knowledge of his own to meet his separate needs, but He rather has spread a common board for all and invites all to come and partake of the richness of the great feast." I wanna stop in that quote to say that is such a very important rebuke to the contemporary Charismatic movement which assumes that God talks to everybody individually, has special revelation for everybody, separate information for everybody to meet everybody's individual need. That is not the case. Abraham Kuiper is right when he says, "He has spread a common board for all and invites all to come and partake of the richness of the great feast. He has given to the world one organically complete revelation, adapted to all, sufficient for all, provided for all, and from this one completed revelation, He requires each to draw His whole spiritual sustenance. Therefore, it is that the miraculous working which is but the sign of God's revealing power, cannot be expected to continue and in point of fact, does not continue after the revelation of which it is the accompaniment has been completed." Great statement, great statement.

In Acts 7, as Stephen preached his famous sermon, he talked about Moses who performed wondrous signs in the land of Egypt and in the Red Sea and in the wilderness and, "received living oracles to pass on to you," Stephen said. Know how God's Word draws the parallel between Moses' signs and the living oracles, the direct revelation from God which He was to pass on. Hebrews 2:3-4 confirms that the validation of the New Testament writers was purposed to cause folks to see them as the agents of God's revelation. "How shall we escape if we neglect so great salvation after it was at first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard God bearing witness with them by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit." He was authenticating the apostles, the writers of Scripture.

Does God promise miracles for everybody? No, He never has; it's not their purpose. You hear Charismatics say, "God has a special miracle for you today." No, He doesn't. "You better be seeking your private miracle. If you're not getting it it's because you don't believe strongly enough." Not true. By the way, Jesus didn't do any private miracles. They were all public, and they were as I said, to authenticate the one who spoke for God.

There's so much more that can be said about this, and there'll be much more in the book, but I just wanna wrap this up in the last five minutes or so. If you're going to say that God is doing miracles today, then, and be Biblically consistent, you're going to have to say that God is also what? Giving what? Revelation. And if God is giving revelation, it will be coming through the people who are what? Doing the miracles. And I will say this for the Charismatics. They're at least logically consistent in that sense. They've got the whole package. God is giving revelation, He's still giving it. The people who are getting it have miracle power, in their view. And what is the next logical step? To call them apostles, and that's what they're doing.

We're now having a pretty common movement in the Charismatic movement, labeling people as apostles, Earl Polk, quite a prominent Charismatic, teaches that certain individuals have been called to be apostles. Jack Dear, former professor at Dallas Seminary, the chief theologian of John Wimber's movement, isn't certain the apostolic ministry is functioning today, but he told a workshop in Sydney, he is convinced that apostolic power is coming. Listen to this, "And the new apostolic age will be greater than the first."

We're gonna get the whole package back, new apostles doing new signs and wonders, receiving new revelation to produce a new Bible? You wanna look at this very carefully, beloved. This almost looks like a plot to deceive the whole church, doesn't it? The apostolic office isn't for today. The church was founded on the apostles. Ephesians 2:20, they were the foundation. You don't put the foundation on the 20thstory. The apostles were all eye witnesses to the resurrection, eye witnesses to the risen Christ. They were chosen personally by Jesus Christ. They were authenticated by miraculous signs. They had absolute authority, and they were given an eternal, unique place of honor. Revelation 21:14 says that, "Heaven, the city of the new Jerusalem, has a wall with 12 foundation stones and on them are the 12 names of the 12 apostles of the Lamb." There were only 12. You can argue who the 12thwas. Some say Mathias, some say Paul, Judas being excluded. You might wanna say Mathias, and Paul was an apostle in due time, kind of an addendum. But the point is, there are only 12 of those honored places. Each of them will rule over one of the 12 tribes of Israel in the kingdom. There's not room for more than 12, folks. They're a special breed, they had no successors. The age of apostles is over 'cause the age of authentication is over because the age of revelation is over.

You say, "Oh, MacArthur, you have a weak view of God." No, I don't. I have a strong view of God. I think He's consistent with Himself and I think He's true to His revelation. Jerry Horner, associate professor of Biblical literature, Oral Roberts said, "Who in the world wants a God that's lost all His zip?" Well, has God lost His zip? Has He done nothing significant in 2,000 years? That's hardly the case. He's got plenty of zip. In fact, He's able to do exceeding abundantly beyond all you can ask or think, according to the power that works in us. He had a special purpose for the eras of revelation. He has a different purpose now, just as powerful, just as wonderful. Don't buy into the deception that there's something beyond the Scripture because that's what this deception is saying. That there's somebody getting a revelation, that there's somebody with apostolic authority, that miracles are supposed to be happening all over the place. It's not true. It's not consistent with Scripture.

Father, we thank You that we can look at Your Word tonight and in just this brief time discern its truth again. Help us to have that discernment, and Lord, help us to believe that You don't have to do a miracle to show Yourself. Providence in many ways is a greater miracle than a miracle. It would be easier to do something supernatural than it is to orchestrate all of the infinite contingencies of life and make them work Your purpose, but You do it every moment of every day. Thank You for Your Word which needs no update for the authenticated messengers gave us the once for all delivered to the saints faith on which we rest. We ask, Lord, that You will keep us true to Your truth. Don't let us get led astray, for Jesus' sake, Amen.


TSunknown warrior
post Jul 5 2017, 11:05 AM

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QUOTE(desmond2020 @ Jul 5 2017, 11:03 AM)
John Macarthur don't believe about healing? Strong word here
To be fair, let read what he said
In our ongoing study of the Charismatic movement today, I wanna jump right in to a subject that I know I can't completely cover, but I want you to learn to think biblically about this because I'm very concerned about it. Today, we hear an awful lot of talk about miracles, somebody says, "I had a financial need and a miracle happened. The mailman came and in the mail was a check for just the amount of money I needed. It was a miracle." Or you hear someone say, "I went to the mall and there was a parking place right by the entrance. It was a miracle." Or a mother might sense something wrong in an adjoining room and investigate just in time to stop her little toddler from putting a paper clip into an electrical outlet, and say, "It's a miracle." Or maybe you were thinking and praying for somebody and just seemingly at the time you were doing that, the phone rang and it was the very person you were thinking about, and they were right there to be encouraged and you say, "That was a miracle." Well, we call those things miracles, but they're not miracles. A miracle is a supernatural event which has no human explanation. More than that, a miracle is a supernatural event which suspends natural law. In other words, natural law stops and is suspended while God acts, moves back out and then the natural course continues. When you find a place to park at the mall or when you catch your little toddler just at the right moment, or when you get a check for what you needed, or when a friend calls at precisely the right moment in time, those would be acts of providence, those would be acts whereby God is simply orchestrating natural events, not suspending the natural, but controlling the natural so that it does what He wants it to do.

A miracle then is an extraordinary event wrought by God that cannot be explained by any natural means. That would be the technical definition. It might sound something like this. A miracle is an event in nature so extraordinary in itself and so coinciding with the prophecy or command of a religious teacher or leader as fully to warrant the conviction on the part of those who witness it, that God has wrought it with the design of certifying that this teacher or leader has been commissioned by him. Now, that takes us to another dimension, and I wanted to read that. That's from Augustus Strong written way back in 1907, and what he is saying there is that anytime a miracle occurs, it is associated with the certification of a teacher or a leader commissioned by God.

Theologians prior of course to the Charismatic movement, the Pentecostal movement and this century, were united in the understanding that miracles did not happen randomly, they did not happen through history in a willy-nilly sort of way. God did not do them capriciously or whimsically. There wasn't a continual flow of miracles at all times and places through church history, but rather, miracles, that is God stepping in to the natural world, suspending natural law, doing something that had no natural explanation, pulling back out again and letting natural law then run its course, did that only in certification of especially commissioned teacher.

In fact, miracles in Scripture, all the way from Exodus through Deuteronomy to Nehemiah through the Psalms, Jeremiah, Daniel, into the New Testament, Matthew, Mark, John, Acts, Romans, 2 Corinthians, Thessalonians and Hebrews, miracles are called signs and wonders. They are signs, and what are signs for? A sign is to point to something, and what were they signs of? They were signs authenticating a divinely commissioned teacher. When God supernaturally, superhumanly suspended natural law and acted in human history, He did so as a sign to point to a teacher who was speaking for Him.

I've collected through the years a very large file of supposed miracles. They range all the way from 1977's newspaper article about Maria Rubio of Lake Arthur, New Mexico who was frying tortillas in her kitchen. She noticed that one of them seemed to have the likeness of a face etched in the burn marks. She concluded that it was Jesus and even built a crude shrine to the tortilla. Thousands of people visited the shrine of the Jesus of the holy tortilla and concluded it was indeed a miracle. "I do not why this has happened to me," Mrs. Rubio said, "but God has come into my life through this tortilla." From the Chicago Tribune. In 1980, in Deptford, New Jersey, Bud Ward, the town's fire department photographer was driving with his wife when he accidentally took a wrong turn. Noticing flames in an abandoned chicken coop behind the Naples Pizzeria, he pulled into the parking lot and began taking pictures. When the slides came back from Kmart, Ward's nine year old daughter noticed what seemed to be an image of Christ in one of the photographs. Word of this discovery spread and soon people from all over New Jersey were talking about the pizza Jesus of Deptford Township. Several people knelt and prayed under the image projected from the slide and others asked that the image be projected onto their chests. Hundreds believed it was a true miracle. Again, according to the GloucesterTimes.

Such apparitions are seen as miracles. In August of 1986, in Postoria, Ohio, the image of Jesus seemed to appear every night in the shadows and rust marks on the side of a soybean oil storage tank. Hawkers sold thousands of, "I saw the vision," t-shirts and coffee mugs to those who came to see the miracle. Nearly a year later, Arlene Gardner of Estill Springs, Tennessee, noticed that when her neighbors turned on their porch light, the image of a face appeared in the glow reflected off her freezer. She believed it was the face of Jesus, although several observers said it looked more like Willy Nelson. Arlene and her husband were so convinced it was a true miracle they quit the church when the pastor expressed skepticism.

Well, evidently, skepticism is a rare commodity these days. People's hunger for the mysterious and the astonishing and phenomena is a little unsurpassed in the history of the church. It's pretty popular stuff in the secular world and it's found its way into the church. Eager to witness miracles, many people seem willing to believe that almost anything unusual is a genuine heavenly wonder. The problem with that is it poses a severe danger for the church because it plays right into the hands of Satan, doesn't it? False wonders and false signs, false miracles, extremely believable ones, the Bible tells us will be the primary tool of Satan in the end times. Jesus said, "False Christ and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders so as to mislead if possible even the elect." Then He added as if knowing that many would ignore the warning, "Behold, I have told you in advance," Matthew 24:24-25.

Surely, in the light of the warning of Jesus and the warnings of the apostle Paul in the New Testament, we should have a healthy skepticism on the part of these supposed miracles. Now, I want you to understand. I am not by nature a skeptic. I am not a naturalist and a humanist and an anti-super naturalist. I believe in miracles, and I believe that every miracle recorded in the Bible literally happened exactly as the Bible described it. I believe, for example, that Moses and the Israelites actually walked through the parted Red Sea and didn't get their feet wet or muddy. I believe that Elijah raised a widow's young son from the dead and that fire called down from Heaven was actually heavenly fire and consumed water. I believe with absolute conviction that Elijah made an axe head float, an iron axe head. I believe that all the healings, miracles, signs and wonders attributed to Jesus and the four Gospels happened exactly and precisely as they are recorded there, and I believe the apostles literally performed all the miracles which the New Testament described. That's not all. I believe God can still do miracles. I believe all things are possible with God, as Matthew 19:26 says. "His power has not diminished in the least since the days of the early church."

But even though I believe all of that, and I believe that if God chooses to do something miraculous, He can do it. I am convinced that most of the miracle signs and wonders, if not all, being claimed today in the Charismatic movement, have nothing in common with what we know about Biblical miracles. They do not fit the Biblical criteria. And I am persuaded by both Scripture and history that nothing like the New Testament gift of miracles, noted in 1 Corinthians chapter 12 is operating today. The Holy Spirit has not given any modern day Christians miraculous gifts comparable to those He gave the apostles.

Now, in spite of that, many Charismatics are making quite remarkable claims. Oral Roberts, for example, speaking at the Charismatic Bible Ministry Conference in 1987 said, and I quote, "I can't tell you about all the dead people I've raised. I've had to stop a sermon, go back and raise a dead person." No less in authority than Dr. C. Peter Wagner, professor of church growth at Fuller Seminary, School of World Mission, believes such things do happen, and I quote him, "I too, now believe that dead people are literally being raised in the world today. As soon as I say that some ask if I believe it is normative. I doubt it would be normative in any local situation, but it probably is normative in terms of the universal body of Christ. Even though it is an extremely uncommon event, I would not be surprised if it were happening several times a year," end quote. John Wimber of the Vineyard lists raising the dead as one of the basic elements of any healing ministry.

Now, with the supposed large number of people being raised from the dead, you would imagine that somebody could manage to come up with one who could give testimony to the validity. But not one modern occurrence of raising the dead can be verified. Say, what about Oral Roberts' claim that he's raised many people? Well, he was challenged to produce the names and addresses of the people he raised, and he balked. Later, he recalled only one incident more than 20 years before when he had supposedly raised a dead child in front of 10,000 witnesses, "During healing service," he recalled, "a mother in the audience jumped up and shouted, 'My baby's dead.'" Roberts said he prayed over the child and, "It jerked, it jerked in my hand." Roberts conceded that neither that child nor others he said he had brought to life had been pronounced clinically dead. "I understand," he hedged, "there's a difference in a person dying and not breathing and a person being clinically dead." Well, what are we supposed to make out that confusion? It's certainly a far cry from Jesus raising Lazarus who had been four days in the grave. And if this Dr. Wagner supposes dead people are literally being raised several times a year, wouldn't it be reasonable to expect that he would bring one along so we could meet him or her. The truth is those who claim miracles today are not able to substantiate their claims. And like the miracles in the New Testament which were usually done with large crowds of unbelievers watching who would be skeptical, modern miracles typically happen either privately or in some religious meeting where there are a lot of people who are in a wild kind of frenzy expecting a miracle where it's a lot easier to fabricate one in the imagination.

And the types of miracles that are being claimed today are absolutely nothing like New Testament miracles, absolutely nothing like them. In fact, the types of miracles today could be distinctly seen as different than New Testament miracles. Jesus and the apostles instantly and completely healed people born blind, a paralytic, a man with a withered arm. All obvious and disputable miracles, even Jesus' enemies didn't challenge the reality of His miracles that He had the people there to verify them. He raised the dead, of course, as we well know. They never did a miracle that was slow, they never did a miracle that took time, they never did a miracle that was less than permanent. By contrast, most modern miracles are partial, gradual, temporary, sometimes reversed, and almost impossible to verify.

And the only instant miracles today seem to be those that deal with psycho-somatic diseases. People with visible disabilities are rarely if ever helped at all by modern faith healers. I recently watched a televangelist interview a man he had supposedly healed of lameness. The man said he was free from his wheelchair for the first time in several years, however, the man was walking with crutches and had heavy braces on his legs. That's not a miracle at all like any in the Scripture. No modern miracle worker claims the kind of unequivocal success seen in the ministry of Christ and His apostles.

Now, there are some in the Charismatic movement who try to defend the supposed miracles which are not verifiable by saying that Jesus Christ is same yesterday, today and forever, so it's the same Jesus today. The Holy Spirit is still with us today and therefore, with Him, we have the age of miracles. David Du Plessiswho is sort of the patriarch of the movement, who has been called Mr. Pentecost, believed, he's dead now, that the age of miracles never ended and that we're still in the age of miracles, and that he said that the miracles and events described in the book of Acts should be normative throughout the church's history. And it is that view that most Pentecostals and Charismatics hold. That whatever the Holy Spirit did in the past, He is still doing now; that miracles go on and on as long as there is the Holy Spirit. They say the Holy Spirit never changed. They say the early church changed. It became doctrinal, it became formal, it became ritualistic, and so the Holy Spirit pulled back His power and now after nearly 2,000 years, He's released it again. The thing that always amazes me is if the Holy Spirit were going to release His power, why would He release it to authenticate the people who teach bad theology? If He wanted to authenticate anybody with miracles, you could be sure it would be those who were the truest and the purest and the most profound and Biblical and the most skilled and dedicated teachers of the Word of God who were teaching the truth.

Many Pentecostals and Charismatics talk about the restoration of the New Testament Holy Spirit power through their movement. They say they're doing again what the apostles did in the first century. Is that true? If so, why do modern revelations, visions, tongues, healings and miracles differ so dramatically from those done by the apostles? And why is it that they're associated with people who do not understand properly the truth of God? And if miracles and signs and wonders are so vital, then why is it that for nearly 2,000 years the Holy Spirit didn't do any? You mean there weren't even a few people around who would have been worthy of such? Should Christians today expect miracles? Is Oral Roberts right when he says, "Everyone of you out there should expect your miracle today"? Are we supposed to be able to do miracles, heal people, raise the dead?

Well, in answer to all of this, we need to take a look at Scripture and I wanna give you just a fast look, overview at this matter of miracles that I think will set your thinking in the right frame. Most Biblical miracles happened in one of three relatively brief periods of Biblical history. You need to note this. Most Biblical miracles happened in three relatively brief periods of Bible history, the days of Moses and Joshua, during the ministries of Elijah and Elisha and thirdly, in the time of Christ and the apostles. None of those periods lasted much more than 100 years. Each of them, each of the three experienced a proliferation of miracles unheard of at other times in God's redemptive history. But even during those three times, miracles were not just normal, every day occurrences that happened to anybody and everybody. The miracles that did happen in the time of Moses and Joshua involved Moses and Joshua. The miracles that happened in the time of Elijah and Elisha happened around the ministries of Elijah and Elisha. And the miracles that happened to Christ and the apostles and through them, happened through their ministries. There weren't just miracles happening all over everywhere to all kinds of people.

And aside from those three intervals, the only other miracles recorded in Scripture are very, very isolated events. It is true in the days of Isaiah, the Lord miraculously defeated Sennacherib army, then healed Hezakiah and turned the sun's shadow back, 2 Kings 19:20. It is true in the days of Daniel, God miraculously preserved Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego in the furnace, Daniel 3. But those are very uncommon and very unusual. It is true that God did miraculously preserve Jonah in the belly of a great fish. But for the most part, those are very isolated, and miracles that those didn't happen to God's people as a course of life.

Now, God of course, at any time can inject Himself into the human stream supernaturally and do a miracle. But He chose to limit Himself primarily to three periods of history, and very rarely will you ever find a miracle in the times in between. The rest of the time, God just works through providence, doesn't need a miracle, He can work through providence. The reason He did a miracle is because a miracle can only be attributed to God. It can only be explained supernaturally and there were times when that was crucial.

Let me give you some points. Three characteristics of the miracles in Scripture will help you understand this. One, miracles introduced new eras of revelation. Miracles introduced new eras of revelation. All three of those periods of miracles were times when God gave His written revelation. Moses and Joshua, the time of the giving of the law. Elijah and Elisha introduced the prophetic office, the prophetic age, and all of the books of prophecy, major prophets and minor prophets. The New Testament obviously, Christ did miracles, the apostles did miracles. That introduced the era of the New Testament revelation. So, whenever God was going to pour out His Word, He wanted to certify certain prophets and teachers of His Word, to authenticate them.

Moses was given the power to do certain miracles that people might know he spoke as God's spokesman. There was no other way to explain what God used him to do other than God was doing it and therefore, this was God's man and when he spoke, he spoke for God. And the same was true in Joshua's case when he wrote his book.

You come to Elijah and Elisha and the miracles that attended their ministry as they were the prophets of God, and they were introducing a very long era of prophetic literature. As God revealed through the prophets of which really they were sort of the introducers. And even if those rare miracles that occurred in other eras involve people who were used by God to write Scripture. Hezakiah's healing involved Isaiah. The three men in the fiery furnace involved Daniel. Those two were what we call major prophets who spoke and wrote for God. Moses performed many miracles in an attempt to convince Pharaoh to let the people of Israel go, to convince Pharaoh that this was not some normal man. This was not some natural man, but this was God's man who spoke for God.

Miracles seem to accompany the Israelites on the their journey out of Egypt and miracles came in their journey through the wilderness to remind the people of God that God was their God and that Moses was God's spokesman. How else would they know who to listen to? They certainly didn't want to listen to Aaron or anybody else. And even when God gave His law to Moses on the mount, Moses' encounter with God was accompanied by signs so dramatic, fire, smoke, a trumpet, a thundering voice, that even Moses himself knew it was the voice of God and Hebrews 12 says he was fearful. And thus began the first period of revelation. And Moses recorded the truth of the Pentateuch, the five books, and Joshua wrote the book that bears his name.

Other books were added intermittently after the time of Moses and Joshua, Samuel probably wrote Judges and 1 and 2 Samuel. David wrote the Psalms, Solomon penned most of the wisdom literature, but those books were not accompanied by the great outpouring of miracles that had distinguished the days Moses and Joshua. They were kind of a continuation in some ways of that revelatory era.

Second major cluster of miraculous events accompanied a new era of Biblical revelation, the age of the Old Testament prophets. Following Solomon's reign, a nation of Israel divided into the northern kingdom Israel, a southern king of Judah. The northern kingdom quickly deteriorated because of idolatry and hit a low point under King Ahab. You remember his wife Jezebel. At that time God raised up two spokesmen, Elijah and Elisha. The prophetic office in their lifetime was marked by dramatic miracles to certify them as the spokesmen for God and to call back the people to God. The prophets that followed them were the continuation of that era.

Then when that era closed out and the Old Testament was done, there was a 400 year period of silence in which no prophet spoke for God and no miracle is recorded to have occurred. Then came the New Testament and the first miracle was a virgin birth, and then the miracles began to flow out of the life of Christ, and then began to flow out of His apostles. Why? Because it was a new era of writing the revelation of God, the New Testament. Always, the miracles were associated with a certification of those who were giving us God's revelation.

Second point, and that is the point we just led into. Miracles authenticated the messengers of Revelation. They only happened in three eras and they authenticated the messengers of Revelation. Elijah raised the widow's dead son and what was the widow's reply? Verse 24 of 1 Kings 17, she said, "Now I know that you are a man of God and that the Word of the Lord in your mouth is truth." That's a very important verse. That's the whole purpose, so that anybody listening to Elijah would know this man is a man of God and in his mouth is the Word of the Lord and it is true.

You come into the New Testament of John 10, Jesus having a confrontation with the Jewish religious leaders. They challenged Him. "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you're the Christ, tell us plainly." Jesus said, "I told you and you don't believe. The works that I do in my Father's Name, these bear witness of Me." He was saying, "The miraculous works that I do authenticate Me and My message as being from God."

In his Pentecost sermon, Peter told the crowd that Jesus was a man attested to them by God with miracles, wonders and signs. And the same kind of power belonged to the apostles. You'll remember that on Paul's first missionary journey, he and Barnabas were ministering in Aconium and it says they were speaking boldly with reliance on the Lord who was bearing witness to the word of His grace, granting that signs and wonders be done by their hands. The love of that is always the intention of the miracle. God does not need to do miracles for everybody to accomplish His will. He does not need to do miracles for every Christian every day to prove His love. He does not need to do miracles every day to make people believe He exists. He only authenticates the Word and when the authenticated Word is revealed, there is no need any longer to authenticate a preacher. You can find out whether he speaks for God by comparing him with this.

And God can still control everything without ever doing a miracle through providence. It's foolish to assume that everybody should be able to do a miracle, that we can go to a seminar in four days and learn how to do miracles. It's equally foolish to assume that God's gonna do miracles for you every day. People who keep saying they saw this miracle and that miracle have got caught up in the fact that everything is a miracle and their definition of miracles lacks greatly Biblical parameters.

The apostles performed miracles, signs and wonders in Acts 5. Why? To call attention to the fact that they were supernatural servants of the living God who spoke the truth. In Acts 15, it says the whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the miraculous signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. These things that mark an apostle, signs and wonders and miracles, Paul said to the Corinthians, were done among you. They mark an apostle.

Moses, Joshua introduced an era of revelation. Elijah, Elisha introduced an era of revelation. Jesus and the apostles introduced an era of revelation and with all the spokesmen and no written Word, with all the spokesmen, God had to authenticate the right spokesman and so He gave them the power to do supernatural things in order that people might know this is no human, mortal teacher. This is a man of God who speaks the truth.

Thirdly, and tied right in with the others. Miracles are designed to call attention to the revelation. Miracles are designed to call attention to the revelation. God did the miracle so the people would listen to the Word and see it as His truth. The miracle didn't stand alone, that's the point. God doesn't do miracles for miracles' sake. The purpose of the miracle was the effect of the miracle. For example, the miracles Moses did in Egypt were meant to enlighten two groups, the Israelites and the Egyptians. In Exodus 7, we read about Moses' first miracles and it was then that the Israelites started to believe in the power of their God. Pharaoh was a hard case. He didn't believe until the tenth miracle, the death angel. Then he finally let them go. But the purpose of the miracle was not just to stand on its own, but the purpose of the miracle was to get people to understand that God had something to say.

The miracles of Elijah and Elisha were effective in convincing both believers and unbelievers that what these men spoke was the Word of God and graphic illustration of that can be seen in 1 Kings 18 where Elijah defeated 400 prophets of Baal before a large crowd of Israelites and the Scripture says, "When all the people saw it, they fell on their faces, they said, 'The Lord, He is God. The Lord, He is God.'" They believed.

In the New Testament, miracles and signs were again used to confirm believers and convince unbelievers. John said the miracles of Jesus were done so that, "You might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and believing you might have life in His Name." And the same was true with the apostolic miracles.

Only three eras always to authenticate those who spoke the revelation of God and always with the purpose of pointing to the revelation so that it is the revelation that is the important thing. Beloved, I submit to you that if you have this book in your hand, you have what is the end product of God's miraculous intervention. This is the purpose for which He did the miracles. You posses this, you don't need the miracles. You have what God intended them to produce, and that is why Jesus said it as simply as it could be said, "If they do not believe Moses and the prophets," that is Scripture, "they will not believe though someone be raised from the dead." You must remember the people of Israel who saw the miracles of Moses, the whole generation died in the wilderness in what? Unbelief. You must remember that the people who heard the prophets speak for God for the most part refuse to believe. One whole kingdom apostatized, the northern kingdom, and in the southern, only a remnant. All those who saw the miracles of Jesus did not believe. Only a small group, and when it came down to it in the book of Acts, there were 120 of them dedicated enough to believing the Lord that they were waiting for the coming of the Holy Spirit.

Miracles have never produced wholesale belief. They can't. They are intended to point to the truth and it is the truth which produces faith. Of course, as the Spirit energizes it. Now the question comes, are miracles necessary today? When the Old and New Testament were completed, God's revelation was finished. Through many signs and wonders, He has authenticated the voracity of this book. Anybody who reads it can see that it's true.

Does God have to keep doing miracles? Is there a need for ongoing miracles to substantiate the Bible? Should everybody with faith claim a miracle? Does God do miracles on demand? Are the phenomena that are occurring today hail to signs and wonders and healings really necessary and authentic? The answer to all those questions is no. Nothing in Scripture indicates that the miracles of the apostles' age were meant to be continuous. You keep reading in the book of Acts and you'll get to the part in the book of Acts where you finally say to yourself, "I haven't read a miracle in a long time," and you'll finish the whole book and never see another one. They had begun to cease even during the book of Acts.

Charismatic believe that the spectacular, miraculous gifts were given for the edification of believers. Does God's Word support that? No. They were not given for the edification for believers. They were not give to edify Christians. They are a sign for those who do not believe, for those who need to see that this is God's Word. Whether you're talking about tongues or healings or miracles, they served as signs to authenticate an era in which God was giving new revelation and people needed to listen. B.B. Warfield, that great Presbyterian professor, a past generation, writing in 1898, said, "Miracles do not appear on the pages vagrantly, here, there and elsewhere indifferently without a signable reason. They belong to revelation periods and appear only when God is speaking to His people through accredited messengers, declaring His gracious purpose. Their abundant display in the apostolic church is the mark of the richness of the apostolic age in revelation." You realize, don't you, that between 36 and 95, all 27 books of the New Testament were written and so there was a proliferation of authentication because of the vast volume of literature being revealed in a brief period of time. Warfield goes on, "When this revelation period closed, the period miracle working had past by also as a mere matter of course. God the Holy Spirit has made it His subsequent work not to introduce new and unneeded revelations into the world, but to diffuse this one complete revelation through the world and to bring mankind into the saving knowledge of it."

Abraham Kuiper, B.B. Warfield actually wrote in 1918, Kuiper wrote this in 1898. Abraham Kuiper, the Dutch theologian writes, "It has not been God's way to communicate to each and every man a separate store of divine knowledge of his own to meet his separate needs, but He rather has spread a common board for all and invites all to come and partake of the richness of the great feast." I wanna stop in that quote to say that is such a very important rebuke to the contemporary Charismatic movement which assumes that God talks to everybody individually, has special revelation for everybody, separate information for everybody to meet everybody's individual need. That is not the case. Abraham Kuiper is right when he says, "He has spread a common board for all and invites all to come and partake of the richness of the great feast. He has given to the world one organically complete revelation, adapted to all, sufficient for all, provided for all, and from this one completed revelation, He requires each to draw His whole spiritual sustenance. Therefore, it is that the miraculous working which is but the sign of God's revealing power, cannot be expected to continue and in point of fact, does not continue after the revelation of which it is the accompaniment has been completed." Great statement, great statement.

In Acts 7, as Stephen preached his famous sermon, he talked about Moses who performed wondrous signs in the land of Egypt and in the Red Sea and in the wilderness and, "received living oracles to pass on to you," Stephen said. Know how God's Word draws the parallel between Moses' signs and the living oracles, the direct revelation from God which He was to pass on. Hebrews 2:3-4 confirms that the validation of the New Testament writers was purposed to cause folks to see them as the agents of God's revelation. "How shall we escape if we neglect so great salvation after it was at first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard God bearing witness with them by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit." He was authenticating the apostles, the writers of Scripture.

Does God promise miracles for everybody? No, He never has; it's not their purpose. You hear Charismatics say, "God has a special miracle for you today." No, He doesn't. "You better be seeking your private miracle. If you're not getting it it's because you don't believe strongly enough." Not true. By the way, Jesus didn't do any private miracles. They were all public, and they were as I said, to authenticate the one who spoke for God.

There's so much more that can be said about this, and there'll be much more in the book, but I just wanna wrap this up in the last five minutes or so. If you're going to say that God is doing miracles today, then, and be Biblically consistent, you're going to have to say that God is also what? Giving what? Revelation. And if God is giving revelation, it will be coming through the people who are what? Doing the miracles. And I will say this for the Charismatics. They're at least logically consistent in that sense. They've got the whole package. God is giving revelation, He's still giving it. The people who are getting it have miracle power, in their view. And what is the next logical step? To call them apostles, and that's what they're doing.

We're now having a pretty common movement in the Charismatic movement, labeling people as apostles, Earl Polk, quite a prominent Charismatic, teaches that certain individuals have been called to be apostles. Jack Dear, former professor at Dallas Seminary, the chief theologian of John Wimber's movement, isn't certain the apostolic ministry is functioning today, but he told a workshop in Sydney, he is convinced that apostolic power is coming. Listen to this, "And the new apostolic age will be greater than the first."

We're gonna get the whole package back, new apostles doing new signs and wonders, receiving new revelation to produce a new Bible? You wanna look at this very carefully, beloved. This almost looks like a plot to deceive the whole church, doesn't it? The apostolic office isn't for today. The church was founded on the apostles. Ephesians 2:20, they were the foundation. You don't put the foundation on the 20thstory. The apostles were all eye witnesses to the resurrection, eye witnesses to the risen Christ. They were chosen personally by Jesus Christ. They were authenticated by miraculous signs. They had absolute authority, and they were given an eternal, unique place of honor. Revelation 21:14 says that, "Heaven, the city of the new Jerusalem, has a wall with 12 foundation stones and on them are the 12 names of the 12 apostles of the Lamb." There were only 12. You can argue who the 12thwas. Some say Mathias, some say Paul, Judas being excluded. You might wanna say Mathias, and Paul was an apostle in due time, kind of an addendum. But the point is, there are only 12 of those honored places. Each of them will rule over one of the 12 tribes of Israel in the kingdom. There's not room for more than 12, folks. They're a special breed, they had no successors. The age of apostles is over 'cause the age of authentication is over because the age of revelation is over.

You say, "Oh, MacArthur, you have a weak view of God." No, I don't. I have a strong view of God. I think He's consistent with Himself and I think He's true to His revelation. Jerry Horner, associate professor of Biblical literature, Oral Roberts said, "Who in the world wants a God that's lost all His zip?" Well, has God lost His zip? Has He done nothing significant in 2,000 years? That's hardly the case. He's got plenty of zip. In fact, He's able to do exceeding abundantly beyond all you can ask or think, according to the power that works in us. He had a special purpose for the eras of revelation. He has a different purpose now, just as powerful, just as wonderful. Don't buy into the deception that there's something beyond the Scripture because that's what this deception is saying. That there's somebody getting a revelation, that there's somebody with apostolic authority, that miracles are supposed to be happening all over the place. It's not true. It's not consistent with Scripture.

Father, we thank You that we can look at Your Word tonight and in just this brief time discern its truth again. Help us to have that discernment, and Lord, help us to believe that You don't have to do a miracle to show Yourself. Providence in many ways is a greater miracle than a miracle. It would be easier to do something supernatural than it is to orchestrate all of the infinite contingencies of life and make them work Your purpose, but You do it every moment of every day. Thank You for Your Word which needs no update for the authenticated messengers gave us the once for all delivered to the saints faith on which we rest. We ask, Lord, that You will keep us true to Your truth. Don't let us get led astray, for Jesus' sake, Amen.
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QUOTE
Does God promise miracles for everybody? No, He never has; it's not their purpose. You hear Charismatics say, "God has a special miracle for you today." No, He doesn't. "You better be seeking your private miracle. If you're not getting it it's because you don't believe strongly enough." Not true. By the way, Jesus didn't do any private miracles. They were all public, and they were as I said, to authenticate the one who spoke for God.


Bible never specified miracles is for specific who...He's wrong in this. He's trying put circumstance as the truth over the Bible when He should put up Bible truth first over circumstance. Just because there are genuines Christians who never got healed does not mean God was not willing. The Problem is the unrealistic expectation that the person MUST be healed immediately...I think that is the problem for concluding as such.

If Jesus did say my miracle is not for Mr. Steven......then I would agree MacArthur will have his point but Bible never say such thing.


Quote me which verse in the Bible that support his statement

"Does God promise miracles for everybody? No, He never has" ...................I will surrender to you. notworthy.gif

I dare challenge his statement by saying this.


Anyone who came to Jesus was all Healed, so who says God promise of miracles is not for everybody? How does He qualify that statement? The HUGE irony is that MacArthur puts the clause, the reason people didn't receive is because they didn't believe strong enough when the very fact his teaching is the one who caused it to be nullified.

He should encourage believers to continue believing and praying...That is biblical rather than shut off the Faith.

How will he answer Persistent Widow in Luke 18?

Luke 18:7-8(NIV) - And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? 8I tell you, He will promptly carry out justice on their behalf. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on earth?”…

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 5 2017, 11:53 AM
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 5 2017, 11:59 AM

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Sorry brother Desmond.....

What I see that has happened to other believers as well as to my own life, I cannot deny God.

If God's miracle is not for everyone, then why should I and others get it? because we're extra special?

God never say His miracles is for this specific person in the Bible hence to put forth such a statement..."God's miracle is not for everyone" = kinda of "playing safe" theology so that people don't get hurt emotionally.

That is really.....irritate me to the core. Si beh tahan. Cowardice theology.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 5 2017, 12:00 PM
desmond2020
post Jul 5 2017, 12:52 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 5 2017, 11:05 AM)
Bible never specified miracles is for specific who...He's wrong in this. He's trying put circumstance as the truth over the Bible when He should put up Bible truth first over circumstance. Just because there are genuines Christians who never got healed does not mean God was not willing. The Problem is the unrealistic expectation that the person MUST be healed immediately...I think that is the problem for concluding as such.

If Jesus did say my miracle is not for Mr. Steven......then I would agree MacArthur will have his point but Bible never say such thing.
Quote me which verse in the Bible that support his statement

"Does God promise miracles for everybody? No, He never has" ...................I will surrender to you.  notworthy.gif

I dare challenge his statement by saying this.
Anyone who came to Jesus was all Healed, so who says God promise of miracles is not for everybody? How does He qualify that statement? The HUGE irony is that MacArthur puts the clause, the reason people didn't receive is because they didn't believe strong enough when the very fact his teaching is the one who caused it to be nullified.

He should encourage believers to continue believing and praying...That is biblical rather than shut off the Faith.

How will he answer  Persistent Widow in Luke 18?

Luke 18:7-8(NIV) -  And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? 8I tell you, He will promptly carry out justice on their behalf. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on earth?”…
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The claim that Jesus heal everyone that come to him


well I read the gospel, four of them, a few time to check. But sadly I can't agree to statement


I do believe God heal. Always he is healer


But not through a human agency unless God need to authenticate such person for revelation.


Remember faith is direct between God and us via Jesus as the high priest. So should be healing


God has plan. Plan that mere mortals won't understand. Heal he will but only according to his plan


Remember what Jesus pray the night before he was crucified
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 5 2017, 12:57 PM

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QUOTE(desmond2020 @ Jul 5 2017, 12:52 PM)
The claim that Jesus heal everyone that come to him
well I read the gospel, four of them, a few time to check. But sadly I can't agree to statement
I do believe God heal. Always he is healer
But not through a human agency unless God need to authenticate such person for revelation.
Remember faith is direct between God and us via Jesus as the high priest. So should be healing
God has plan. Plan that mere mortals won't understand. Heal he will but only according to his plan
Remember what Jesus pray the night before he was crucified
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Don't angry with me but I believe this is what stops you from receiving, you can't agree means you don't believe God's miracle is for anyone who approach Him.

I did ask you, what is so special about me? you mean God heals me because that is according to his will?

Well what did I do to be in his will? I'll tell you nothing. I wasn't really a shining exemplary Christian obeying everything God commanded.

All I did was to be convinced God is more than willing to Heal as according to how Jesus healed to all that came to Him.

My faith was small...small as mustard seed but I believe as how the Bible asked me.

That is all.
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 5 2017, 01:02 PM

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QUOTE(nachtsider @ Jul 5 2017, 10:47 AM)
Can Christianity accept (as in not condemn) a supernatural creature that is not God and not necessarily in league with God but is nevertheless benevolent and helpful towards mankind?
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In Christianity, it is recorded God is sovereign in the sense, there are no other gods. This was proclaimed by God himself.

You will not be happy with our answer.

Because we do not believe in supernatural deity as you call demi-gods, etc. We believe these are all the works of the Evil One (Satan Spiritual Forces) with the sole purpose to deceive Mankind that the Christian God is not the truth and not the only one, even though their purpose is to be benevolent and helpful to mankind.

Sorry if this upsets you.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 5 2017, 01:03 PM
desmond2020
post Jul 5 2017, 01:03 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 5 2017, 12:57 PM)
Don't angry with me but I believe this is what stops you from receiving, you can't agree means you don't believe God's miracle is for anyone who approach Him.

I did ask you, what is so special about me? you mean God heals me because that is according to his will?

Well what did I do to be in his will? I'll tell you nothing. I wasn't really a shining exemplary Christian obeying everything God commanded.

All I did was to be convinced God is more than willing to Heal as according to how Jesus healed to all that came to Him.

My faith was small...small as mustard seed but I believe as how the Bible asked me.

That is all.
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No my friend


God heal not only christian, but every human beings if he so wish. Like sunlight and rain that fall on believer and non believer. For he is full of mercy. But God has plan for everything. Suffering such as disease is just part of it
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 5 2017, 01:09 PM

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QUOTE(desmond2020 @ Jul 5 2017, 01:03 PM)
No my friend
God heal not only christian, but every human beings if he so wish. Like sunlight and rain that fall on believer and non believer.  For he is full of mercy. But God has plan for everything. Suffering such as disease is just part of it
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Well I believe He wishes so, that is recorded in the Bible.

I don't subscribe to the doctrine where suffering such as terminal health condition such as cancer is part of God's will. Not under the New Covenant anyway.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 5 2017, 01:14 PM
SUSredisthcan
post Jul 5 2017, 01:24 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 5 2017, 01:02 PM)
In Christianity, it is recorded God is sovereign in the sense, there are no other gods. This was proclaimed by God himself.

You will not be happy with our answer.

Because we do not believe in supernatural deity as you call demi-gods, etc. We believe these are all the works of the Evil One (Satan Spiritual Forces) with the sole purpose to deceive Mankind that the Christian God is not the truth and not the only one, even though their purpose is to be benevolent and helpful to mankind.

Sorry if this upsets you.
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Shhhh.

Nobody's necessarily talking about gods or deities.

I merely state 'supernatural beings'.

And nobody's upset or unhappy, either. tongue.gif

When I mention 'a supernatural creature that is not God and not necessarily in league with God but is nevertheless benevolent and helpful towards mankind', do your angels not fit this criteria?

You know - Raphael, Gabriel, Michael and so on?

Do you not accept and revere them?
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 5 2017, 01:32 PM

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QUOTE(nachtsider @ Jul 5 2017, 01:24 PM)
Shhhh.

Nobody's necessarily talking about gods or deities.

I merely state 'supernatural beings'.

And nobody's upset or unhappy, either.  tongue.gif

When I mention 'a supernatural creature that is not God and not necessarily in league with God but is nevertheless benevolent and helpful towards mankind', do your angels not fit this criteria?

You know - Raphael, Gabriel, Michael and so on?

Do you not accept and revere them?
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All the same whatever supernatural beings.

I accept they are God's servant as we are.

But to revere them in as in respect yes, but to revere as in to pray or worship....even Angels tells us not to.
SUSredisthcan
post Jul 5 2017, 02:03 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 5 2017, 01:32 PM)
All the same whatever supernatural beings.

I accept they are God's servant as we are.

But to revere them in as in respect yes, but to revere as in to pray or worship....even Angels tells us not to.
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The bolded portion is new to me.

I had previously been under the impression that petitioning the angels for assistance or mentioning them in prayers was not prohibited; could have sworn that I heard at least one Christian acquaintance mention Archangel Michael in his prayers.

Does asking an angel for help necessarily mean that you are violating the rule of worshipping none but God, though?
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post Jul 5 2017, 02:30 PM

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QUOTE(nachtsider @ Jul 5 2017, 02:03 PM)
The bolded portion is new to me.

I had previously been under the impression that petitioning the angels for assistance or mentioning them in prayers was not prohibited; could have sworn that I heard at least one Christian acquaintance mention Archangel Michael in his prayers.

Does asking an angel for help necessarily mean that you are violating the rule of worshipping none but God, though?
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Sorry I need to correct that, Bible never says , You shall not pray to angels. Only the Do not worship is recorded in Revelation 22:9.


Just that no where do I find a verse that tells me I can pray to the Angels but mostly prayer are pointed to either Jesus, God the father or the Holy Spirit.

Catholics may have a differing view on this though...you can ask them in their thread.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 5 2017, 02:34 PM
SUSredisthcan
post Jul 5 2017, 02:52 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 5 2017, 02:30 PM)
Sorry I need to correct that, Bible never says , You shall not pray to angels. Only the Do not worship is recorded in Revelation 22:9.
Just that no where do I find a verse that tells me I can pray to the Angels but mostly prayer are  pointed to either Jesus, God the father or the Holy Spirit.

Catholics may have a differing view on this though...you can ask them in their thread.
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You know what they say.

The devil is in the details. devil.gif
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 5 2017, 03:00 PM

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QUOTE(nachtsider @ Jul 5 2017, 02:52 PM)
You know what they say.

The devil is in the details.  devil.gif
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From Christian understanding when we pray to God, God will instruct His angels to carry out whatever God commanded them to do. This is quite consistent throughout the Bible.

Hence, I don't understand the need to pray to Angels when you can have access directly to God for prayer.
SUSredisthcan
post Jul 5 2017, 04:08 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 5 2017, 03:00 PM)
From Christian understanding when we pray to God, God will instruct His angels to carry out whatever God commanded them to do. This is quite consistent throughout the Bible.

Hence, I don't understand the need to pray to Angels when you can have access directly to God for prayer.
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So it's not okay to talk to or interact with the messengers/intermediaries?
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post Jul 5 2017, 04:30 PM

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QUOTE(nachtsider @ Jul 5 2017, 04:08 PM)
So it's not okay to talk to or interact with the messengers/intermediaries?
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Never really bother if it's okay or not okay as there's no need to.
SUSredisthcan
post Jul 5 2017, 04:44 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 5 2017, 04:30 PM)
Never really bother if it's okay or not okay as there's no need to.
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At least you acknowledge their existence, I guess.

Which sort of answers my original question regarding beneficial supernatural beings. rclxms.gif
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post Jul 5 2017, 07:01 PM

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A good angel won't demand worship for themselves anyway. They always point back to their Lord.
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QUOTE(nachtsider @ Jul 5 2017, 04:44 PM)
At least you acknowledge their existence, I guess.

Which sort of answers my original question regarding beneficial supernatural beings.  rclxms.gif
*
??? For me personally as Christian, I've always acknowledge God's angel existence, never doubted them.


Asenav
post Jul 5 2017, 10:03 PM

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Hello brothers and sisters in Christ, unlurking myself after a long while because I badly need prayers.

To cut the long story short, recently God has revealed to me the sin of pride in my heart. Looking back to my past and my relationships with family, friends, colleagues... God told me very plainly that if I am still unable to change my ways no matter how much I'd prayed, the one thing that's stopping me, is my pride.

Because of pride, I had indulged in self-pity, not wanting to change my sinful ways, and after that feeling shame in my heart, and the cycle goes on. Almost destroying me from inside out.

Please pray for me, as pride is so ingrained in me that I know I could never get rid of it on my own. Yet I refused to believe that it will be part of me forever. With men it is impossible, but with God all things are possible.

Cheers.
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post Jul 6 2017, 08:53 AM

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QUOTE(Asenav @ Jul 5 2017, 10:03 PM)
Hello brothers and sisters in Christ, unlurking myself after a long while because I badly need prayers.

To cut the long story short, recently God has revealed to me the sin of pride in my heart. Looking back to my past and my relationships with family, friends, colleagues... God told me very plainly that if I am still unable to change my ways no matter how much I'd prayed, the one thing that's stopping me, is my pride.

Because of pride, I had indulged in self-pity, not wanting to change my sinful ways, and after that feeling shame in my heart, and the cycle goes on. Almost destroying me from inside out.

Please pray for me, as pride is so ingrained in me that I know I could never get rid of it on my own. Yet I refused to believe that it will be part of me forever. With men it is impossible, but with God all things are possible.

Cheers.
*
Hi Asenav,

The way out of sin's behaviour will only work through what Christ did. May I give a truth perspective of what Christ did for you at the cross, I take that you're a Christian and have said the sinner's prayer.

If you have accepted Christ as your Saviour then you need to hold Christ as your Saviour, you also must hold the position, admitting cannot save yourself by your effort or performance. If you have accepted Christ's sacrifice at the cross, then you need to hold the position of No Condemnation, meaning, don't condemn yourself. (Romans 8:1) Hold that position by Faith, that you've been made righteous apart from your work/performance. Righteous state is given to you as a Gift of God's Grace, you don't get it by abstaining from exhibiting pride.

Why is this important? Because it will change your Life System..in a way the Holy Spirit can come in and help you to remove Pride. Until you hold the position of No Condemnation and that you've been made righteous by your Faith, the Holy Spirit cannot work in your life to remove that nature of the flesh.

This may not be immediate, you may go through a period of struggling but you need to confess and hold that position that you are cleaned (through Christ), that you are a Saint, you are righteous in Christ every single day. This is our Christian fight on daily basis.

That is why .....this entails living by Faith...because it takes Faith to believe in all of these. We are too prone to believe that our righteousness has a lot to do with what we do (example..you trying to stop your pride).

I hope you understand. If you need more detail explanation...I will oblige.

God Bless.






TSunknown warrior
post Jul 6 2017, 10:32 AM

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Jesus will come down to the level of your Faith.


Matthew 9:21 (NIV) - She said to herself, "If I only touch his cloak, I will be healed."

There are many voices out there who portray God as being hard to please, that God will not hear us because we have not been doing this or we are that.

The Bible however portray otherwise. God has given me this ministry to show Him in the right light and the reason why I'm still here today is because The Lord has been gracious and supportive according to his great Faithfulness. I just want to say God is nothing like how some people paint Him to be..Mean or being distance God. God is a Good God who is very very close, Like a Father to his own child. That is a very accurate truth of our God.

I want to bring you this Bible incident where there was woman who was suffering bleeding for 12 years. Can you imagine such a predicament, how the person will be like? This lady reasoned with herself...if only she can touch the edge of Jesus cloak, she will be healed. You must understand she isn't suppose to be there, according to God's Law, She is unclean and shouldn't be in public places. But this lady was desperately seeking for a cure which she must have been hearing this fame Christ can give. However she did this and only wanted the healing, she didn't really care for the Healer, hence she crept up to Him from behind. We have lepers who came to Jesus in the front to ask for healing.

When she did touched Jesus's garment, our God stop among the throng of crowd. And turn to her. For a brief moment, the Face of God met with this lady, it's as if time stop for this beautiful moment, face to face and the Lord told her..."“Take courage, daughter,” He said, “your faith has healed you.”

Our Lord Jesus did not respond "Do you really think a piece of cloth, my garment has healed you and not me as the Healer, and because you did not respect to ask me but you crept secretly, because of this I will not heal you". Our Lord responded to her..because she believe the cloth can healed her, God came down to her level of Faith and responded!

This is my Lord Jesus Christ. smile.gif

God will come to you and your level of Faith...."According to your Faith, be it unto you".

So If you felt more comfortable in medicine and doctors, God can use medicine and doctors to heal you. And I hope as you get to know more about Jesus Christ, your Faith will increase as the days goes by.

God Bless.

TSunknown warrior
post Jul 7 2017, 08:42 AM

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Pray Everyday

Philippians 4:6 (NIV) - Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.

Morning Friends.

We got to pray everyday because

1. Nature of our flesh
2. We an enemy who seeks to destroy us everyday


We need the Holy Spirit to keep the nature of our flesh in check. What I do is...only daily basis ask the HS to remove the desires of the flesh like hating your enemies, lust to pornography, bitterness and to help me to love my enemies and to be considerate of others. I normally pray asking the HS to fill me with his divine power and to help me walk in the spirit.

We need to pray to God for protection everyday because our spiritual enemies does not rest to take every opportunity to destroy us.

I don't know about you but I see no reason not to pray because of these 2 factors it is vital and crucial to see that we need God everyday.

the Bible says in Philippians 4:6 we need to pray in EVERY situation. We have situations in our life as Christians. The 2 above qualify.

Hope this spurs you to pray on daily basis. Seek Jesus everyday. God loves for you to come to Him in prayer. God loves for you to be in his presence everyday, He will not reject you.

Jesus loves you guys.

God Bless.



This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 7 2017, 08:46 AM
NicoRobinz
post Jul 7 2017, 08:50 AM

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Hi Unknown Warrior,

Can someone follow Jesus Christ with being baptised? And if you don't mind me asking this, are you a pastor? You seem to know a lot.
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post Jul 7 2017, 09:02 AM

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QUOTE(NicoRobinz @ Jul 7 2017, 08:50 AM)
Hi Unknown Warrior,

Can someone follow Jesus Christ with being baptised? And if you don't mind me asking this, are you a pastor? You seem to know a lot.
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Hi Nico, no I'm not a pastor, just a fellow servant of Christ who work in Church who has a heart and passion for God's word and ministry to the lost in this forum.

Yes anyone can believe, follow and be baptised to Christ Jesus.
NicoRobinz
post Jul 7 2017, 10:37 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 7 2017, 09:02 AM)
Hi Nico, no I'm not a pastor, just a fellow servant of Christ who work in Church who has a heart and passion for God's word and ministry to the lost in this forum.

Yes anyone can believe, follow and be baptised to Christ Jesus.
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Sorry Unknow Warrior,

What i meant was :

Can someone follow Jesus Christ without being baptised?
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 7 2017, 11:15 AM

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QUOTE(NicoRobinz @ Jul 7 2017, 10:37 AM)
Sorry Unknow Warrior,

What i meant was :

Can someone follow Jesus Christ without being baptised?
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Of course can. Before I was baptised, I see God responding to my prayers....I believe God accepted me on the basis of my Faith in Jesus Christ.

On theology study, from God's perspective, He accepted me based on his Mercy and Grace...I never really did anything to qualify just..my Faith simple believe in Christ.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 7 2017, 11:19 AM
NicoRobinz
post Jul 7 2017, 11:43 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 7 2017, 11:15 AM)
Of course can. Before I was baptised, I see God responding to my prayers....I believe God accepted me on the basis of my Faith in Jesus Christ.

On theology study, from God's perspective, He accepted me based on his Mercy and Grace...I never really did anything to qualify just..my Faith simple believe in Christ.
*
In that case, may I know the purpose for going through baptism then?

Are those who haven't been baptized aren't considered as full-fledged Christians? Is there any ceremony that they are forbidden to take part in like communion?
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 7 2017, 02:08 PM

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QUOTE(NicoRobinz @ Jul 7 2017, 11:43 AM)
In that case, may I know the purpose for going through baptism then?

Are those who haven't been baptized aren't considered as full-fledged Christians? Is there any ceremony that they are forbidden to take part in like communion?
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As long as you've accept Christ as your God and Saviour, you're a full fledge Christian thus you qualify to take Holy Communion.

Water baptism is like......how should I put it?

It's like this. When you marry a person, you register with registrar of marriage, take an oath before the officer in charge of marriage with witnesses and sign the marriage document/cert.
That makes you legally married.

Water baptism is like throwing Wedding Dinner inviting everyone celebrating to show that you're married.

Whether you do a wedding dinner or not, you're legally married.

Not a very accurate example but..hope it gets the message across.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 7 2017, 02:30 PM
josephlau7966
post Jul 7 2017, 04:13 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 7 2017, 02:08 PM)
As long as you've accept Christ as your God and Saviour, you're a full fledge Christian thus you qualify to take Holy Communion.

Water baptism is like......how should I put it?

It's like this. When you marry a person, you register with registrar of marriage, take an oath before the officer in charge of marriage with witnesses and sign the marriage document/cert.
That makes you legally married.

Water baptism is like throwing Wedding Dinner inviting everyone celebrating to show that you're married.

Whether you do a wedding dinner or not, you're legally married.

Not a very accurate example but..hope it gets the message across.
*
Hi UW, how are you lately?
Having good time defending our faith here??? smile.gif
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 7 2017, 04:24 PM

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QUOTE(josephlau7966 @ Jul 7 2017, 04:13 PM)
Hi UW, how are you lately?
Having good time defending our faith here??? smile.gif
*
Trying to cut down on apologetics and focus more on Christ centred fellowshipping...... encouraging one another in the Lord.


josephlau7966
post Jul 7 2017, 04:34 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 7 2017, 04:24 PM)
Trying to cut down on apologetics and focus more on Christ centred fellowshipping...... encouraging one another in the Lord.
*
Thats good....Hope I can join your fellowship.... smile.gif
My struggle is quiite mild lately....Praise the Lord....
Learning to have regular quiet time now....Could you give me your two cents???
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post Jul 7 2017, 05:00 PM

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QUOTE(josephlau7966 @ Jul 7 2017, 04:34 PM)
Thats good....Hope I can join your fellowship.... smile.gif
My struggle is quiite mild lately....Praise the Lord....
Learning to have regular quiet time now....Could you give me your two cents???
*
Praise God! that's good. thumbup.gif I'm hoping more people will join the fellowship, you're always welcome to.


Nothing much to say on this...just that I notice people who spend regular quiet time with God are tremendously blessed in the sense they will sense God's presence at time, and If we include reading of his word in the quiet time we get to understand his word more and more and I notice there's a difference ....versus the time we don't spend time with God....answers to prayers also follow in tandem. I don't mean to say there's no answers to prayer but there's seem to be more of increase of God's Grace in our life when we really connect with God 24/7...., just my general observation, don't want to make this into a doctrine because it's not. icon_rolleyes.gif



josephlau7966
post Jul 7 2017, 05:45 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 7 2017, 05:00 PM)
Praise God! that's good. thumbup.gif  I'm hoping more people will join the fellowship, you're always welcome to.
Nothing much to say on this...just that I notice people who spend regular quiet time with God are tremendously blessed in the sense they will sense God's presence at time, and If we include reading of his word in the quiet time we get to understand his word more and more and I notice there's a difference ....versus the time we don't spend time with God....answers to prayers also follow in tandem. I don't mean to say there's no answers to prayer but there's seem to be more of increase of God's Grace in our life when we really connect with God 24/7...., just my general observation, don't want to make this into a doctrine because it's not.  icon_rolleyes.gif
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What kind of fellowship is that? you mean real life or in this forum thread??

For the quiet time, I am actually seeking to have deep intimacy with him personally. Seeing that most probably I will be single the rest of my life, I am trying to cultivate affection to Him which surpass everything of me.
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 7 2017, 10:10 PM

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QUOTE(josephlau7966 @ Jul 7 2017, 05:45 PM)
What kind of fellowship is that? you mean real life or in this forum thread??

For the quiet time, I am actually seeking to have deep intimacy with him personally. Seeing that most probably I will be single the rest of my life, I am trying to cultivate affection to Him which surpass everything of me.
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This thread fellowship can never replace actual church organized fellowship such as Small Group / Home Fellowship or Cell Group. Those who have their own church should attend their church small group meetings. Please don't miss it.

What I mean is that, this fellowship thread is just a place for Christians who are in this forum to hang out, have simple/friendly fellowship, make new friends.

I think it's a good thing because there could be Christians who may not have attended Church for some time, Christians who have backslided....this thread can in a way give hope perhaps ...keeps the person connected with his faith (hopefully).

Well, the thing is, we all don't know the future, what God has in store, we may feel (like) it's hopeless for a partner.....but Life can be a surprises sometime, you'll never know.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 7 2017, 10:15 PM
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 8 2017, 09:31 AM

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This song minister to my life, if the door is good for me, God will open it for me when I pray.
josephlau7966
post Jul 8 2017, 09:54 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 7 2017, 10:10 PM)
This thread fellowship can never replace actual church organized fellowship such as Small Group / Home Fellowship or Cell Group. Those who have their own church should attend their church small group meetings. Please don't miss it.

What I mean is that, this fellowship thread is just a place for Christians who are in this forum to hang out, have simple/friendly fellowship, make new friends.

I think it's a good thing because there could be Christians who may not have attended Church for some time, Christians who have backslided....this thread can in a way give hope perhaps ...keeps the person connected with his faith (hopefully).

Well, the thing is, we all don't know the future, what God has in store, we may feel (like) it's hopeless for a partner.....but Life can be a surprises sometime, you'll never know.
*
yeah, you are right. virtual fellowship could nvr replace actual fellowship. They are quite a lot of Christian stop going to church due to some bad experience interact with people.
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 8 2017, 10:11 AM

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QUOTE(josephlau7966 @ Jul 8 2017, 09:54 AM)
yeah, you are right. virtual fellowship could nvr replace actual fellowship. They are quite a lot of Christian stop going to church due to some bad experience interact with people.
*
...I think I will need to address this problem...hopefully will write something about it.
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post Jul 8 2017, 10:42 AM

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Anwar recalls reading the Bible six years in jail

http://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/category/...-years-in-jail/

user posted image

KAJANG: Anwar Ibrahim passed the time, when he was jailed in 1999 for six years for corruption, by reading the Bible every other day besides the Quran.
He did not say what comparisons he made.
The Opposition Leader was speaking at a largely Christian gathering at a church in Kajang, the Holy Family Church, which was the venue for a joint Deepavali-Christmas celebration.
He was expressing his embarrassment that over-zealous religious authorities in Selangor had seized copies of Malay and Iban Bibles for carrying the Arabic term Allah, for God, and initially refusing to return them.

“I could assume some difficulty although I don’t, in prison, other than reading the Quran, I can assure you every other day I would also look at the Bible,” he said in speaking directly to Father George the parish priest at the Holy Family Church. “I can give you quotes but not with Father George present because he is the authority.”
Turning to John in the Bible, the de facto Pakatan Rakyat (PR) Chief recalled that “you shall know the truth, and the truth will set you free” in dismissing falsehoods, racism and fanaticism.

“Do not worry because there are voices from a small group, including from the Malay Muslim community in the current administration, which showed the attitude which equates Islam with arrogance,” he advised. “We do not represent that view and respecting the rights of other religion does not lower our confidence in our faith.”
Anwar stressed that Selangor Menteri Besar Azmin Ali deserves every praise for persuading the religious authorities to return the seized Bibles within weeks of taking office after advising the Sultan that the holy books belonged to the Christians.

Supporters of the palace, miffed that Azmin was getting all the praise, had been quoted as saying in the media that the Menteri Besar had in fact nothing to do with the return of the Bibles and that credit should go to the Sultan.

Anwar did not touch on media reports that Christians and non-Christians alike throughout the country are upset and furious that the seized copies of the Bible which were returned by the Selangor Sultan on November 14 have been desecrated and defaced with a warning. It’s not known who desecrated and defaced them.
The warning, which has since gone viral on social media, reads in English in the Malay and Iban Bibles: “Strictly for non-Muslims usage only and shall not be published or used in any part of the state of Selangor pursuant to section 9 (1) Non-Islamic Religions (Control of Propagation Amongst Muslims) Enactment 1988.”

The warning is also in Malay above the English version.

The Bibles were seized by Selangor religious authorities from the Bible Society of Malaysia (BSM) bookshop in Petaling Jaya earlier this year.
They were handed over on Nov 14 by the Selangor Islamic Religious Department (Jais) to the Association of Churches of Sarawak (ACS) in a ceremony witnessed by the Sultan of Selangor. Azmin was also present. Rev Archbishop Bolly Lapok is ACS chairman.

This is a repeat incident.
In Mar 2011, the Home Ministry similarly not only stamped but serialized 5,000 copies of the Bible which were seized on 20 Mar, 2009 after holding the consignment worth RM70,000 at Kuching Port for two years.

The BSM then took the view in a statement that the desecrated and defaced Bibles could no longer be sold but would be archived as “heritage for Christians in Malaysia”.
Sarawak, like Sabah, is a majority Christian. There’s no religion in the Constitutions of the two Borneo nations in line with the Malaysia Agreement 1963, and constitutional documents like the 20 Points and 18 Points.

BSM has issued a statement asking the religious authorities in Selangor to explain why their 351 copies of the Bibles in Malay and Iban which were seized by them in January were returned only after they were desecrated and defaced with a warning.
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What is of God and what is of the devil

John 10:10 (NIV) - The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

Dear Friends,

Whenever you have your joy killed, your peace stolen, whenever you have your health stolen, detrimental in any way, when you have your financed short-changed by unscrupulous elements, understand that this is NOT of God.

Jesus came to give you abundant life, it will be in such a way that you're glad you have Life and that you're living and not only that God wants to give you the MUCH MORE of life.

I pray the Holy Spirit will give you divine revelation on this verse.

God Bless.


This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 10 2017, 09:03 AM
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 10 2017, 01:06 PM

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The founder of Yayasan Generasi Gemilang shares his mission to restore dignity to the under-served communities, beginning with education.

http://my.asiatatler.com/society/bright-yo...nerasi-gemilang

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When Daniel Tan was just four months old, his father left the family, leaving his mother to fend for three young children. He may have been too young to understand, but he grew up affected by his mother's struggles to make ends meet. At the age of 10, his mother remarried but it was hardly a few months after his stepsister was born that he, too, left them. Like many children from broken families, he entered his teenage years troubled and wayward.

Today, not a trace of bitterness emanates from this gregarious man, as he recounts the events that led to the formation of Yayasan Generasi Gemilang (GG), a foundation that educates under-served children and families. For someone without prior background in social work, seven steadfast years of running GG has saw to its expansion from Kuala Lumpur and Selangor, to the outskirts of Sarawak.

In the darkest hours of his youth, Daniel found solace at church. “These adults were my guardians, and despite my background they believed in my potential.” Daniel had started smoking, drinking, and mixing with bad company in his high school days.

“I couldn’t speak a word of English up to Form 2. I began picking up the language, and eventually I went on to get a diploma in IT,” shared Daniel, who thrived in the field. At the same time, Daniel served as a pastor and counselor for youths and families, as well as the urban poor.

His counselling work was a calling to fix a broken society. “I started with character building syllabuses for schools,” the founder and CEO of GG explained. “I wanted to make the moral subject fun. The key of this program was to impact students, on top of making learning fun and engaging.”

In 2010, Daniel registered GG as a society with a few likeminded friends, and not long after, scored a corporate partnership with Danone Dumex on their first CSR campaign.

GG was quickly approached for more corporate partnerships, including Prudential, whom GG created the PRUkasih campaign offering free financial protection plans for low-income families. “When we keep to our principals and values, our integrity and credibility, people pay attention and come to us,” Daniel reiterated his foundation’s goals.



------------------------------------------------------

In summary, this guy understands what hardship is and wants to give a chance to the underprivileged for a better life.


Sophiera
post Jul 10 2017, 04:46 PM

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I have a problem.

I'm getting incredibly bitter at people who had hurt me, and yet have a much more successful life. It's worse because i work so hard with so little returns.

I'm aware that someone else could be thinking the same about me. That in their eyes, I'm the successful one.
biatche
post Jul 10 2017, 11:04 PM

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pain allows us to evolve. success tends to boost the ego.

but why post this in a christian thread?

what sort of hurt did someone inflict upon you? and successful how? if too personal for public you are welcome to pm me.
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post Jul 11 2017, 08:50 AM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Jul 10 2017, 04:46 PM)
I have a problem.

I'm getting incredibly bitter at people who had hurt me, and yet have a much more successful life. It's worse because i work so hard with so little returns.

I'm aware that someone else could be thinking the same about me. That in their eyes, I'm the successful one.
*
I think it may help to detach from comparing yourself or to be concern with other people. It maybe hard but sometime we just have to do it.

This is supported by scripture as well, hence it's the life we are to live.


John 21:20-22 (NIV) - Peter turned and saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them. He was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper to ask, “Lord, who is going to betray You?” When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?” Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain until I return, what is that to you? You follow Me!”


1 Thessalonians 4:11 (NIV) - and to make it your ambition to lead a quiet life: You should mind your own business and work with your hands, just as we told you,

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 11 2017, 09:55 AM
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post Jul 11 2017, 10:26 AM

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Why we are stuck.

Hebrews 6:1 (NIV) - Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God,

This verse is saying, we need to move on but many times we are harping on and repeating the same old same old..always revolving about our struggles with sin. The contention on this subject..is that some voice tells us we must be sin conscious all the time when fact of the matter Christ came to make us clean. I beg to differ, my bible tells me we need to be Righteous conscious in Christ all the time. The context has to do with Salvation (elementary teachings about Christ), the verse talks about repentance and of Faith in God, meaning difficulty in changing our mind (repentance) and believing in God (Faith) for whatever reasons.

We are not moving forward towards maturity or progress...the Much more portion of the abundant life God has in store for us.

This verse starts with a "Therefore" so it means the preceding verse is related, so let's take a look in hebrews 5, what it's all about. In hebrews 5, it talks about not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness (Verse 13).

I submit to you, this is the key reason why we are not able to move on to maturity. It has to do with righteousness. The truth of the new covenant...the way God instituted, we are credit righteousness on the basis of our Faith but too often we hear voices condemning us...we are not doing right before God or we are not doing enough. The legality and religious spirit which IMO is not what God wants in the believer's life is one of the reason why believers life are stifled. I've encountered enough opposition to know this.

My ministry is to unveil this truth from your blinded eyes and ears. You may confess with you mouth you know you're righteous by Faith but deep down inside, you still believe your actions matters to being righteous.

Until we learn to rest in Faith that God no longers sees us in our performance to be justified before him, until we learn we don't have to be who we are not in order to please God but to be our true self and allow God to touch us where we are, there can be no change, we will keep on repeating this cycle of elementary life not able to be taken forward to maturity. The point of hebrews 6:1 is that there is the Much portion of the Gospel, the abundant life God promised in John 10:10. Think about it, why it's called "elementary".

This much more portion has been very much attacked and persecuted because the devil knows it threatened his evil kingdom. The Devil hates it when a Christian is set free from being oppressed into a joyful state..in a way Life has meaning and can be enjoyed.

I pray the Lord gives you this revelation. God Bless.


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post Jul 11 2017, 03:38 PM

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Netanyahu reads from Bible to prove Hebron’s Tomb of Patriarchs is Jewish

https://worldisraelnews.com/netanyahu-quote...roves-un-wrong/

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Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu read passages from the Bible during Sunday’s weekly Cabinet meeting as a refutation of Friday’s resolution passed by the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) World Heritage Committee designating the Tomb of the Patriarchs and Hebron a Palestinian heritage site.

“I would like to read from Genesis 23:16-19: ‘And Abraham hearkened unto Ephron; and Abraham weighed to Ephron the silver, which he had named in the hearing of the children of Heth, four hundred shekels of silver, current money with the merchant…And after this, Abraham buried Sarah his wife in the cave of the field of Machpelah before Mamre–the same is Hebron–in the land of Canaan. And the field, and the cave that is therein, were made sure unto Abraham for a possession of a burying-place by the children of Heth,'” Netanyahu read.

“The connection between the Jewish People and Hebron and the Tomb of the Patriarchs is one of purchase and of history which may be without parallel in the history of peoples,” Netanyahu declared.



“Of course this did not prevent the UNESCO World Heritage Committee last Friday from passing yet another delusional resolution which determined that the Tomb of the Patriarchs, the same Cave of Machpelah, is a Palestinian heritage site,” the Israeli premier derided the resolution.

Netanyahu explained that in wake of this resolution, he has decided to cut an additional $1 million from Israel’s UN membership dues and transfer the funds to the establishment of “The Museum of the Heritage of the Jewish People in Kiryat Arba and Hebron.” The money will also serve additional heritage initiatives related to Hebron.

He tasked Minister of Jerusalem Affairs and Heritage Ze’ev Elkin with submitting a proper proposal on this matter.

“Against UNESCO’s denial, Israel will present to the world the historical truth and the Jewish People’s deep connection – of thousands of years – to Hebron just as we did with UNESCO’s other delusional decision regarding the absence of a connection to Jerusalem,” Netanyahu vowed.



After UNESCO previously passed Muslim-sponsored resolutions denying the Jewish connection to Jerusalem and the Old City, Israel reduced its UN dues.


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post Jul 11 2017, 03:55 PM

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Epic Way to Give Away A Daughter at Her Wedding
Sophiera
post Jul 11 2017, 07:07 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 11 2017, 03:55 PM)

Epic Way to Give Away A Daughter at Her Wedding
*
laugh.gif laugh.gif rclxms.gif rclxms.gif

This one is seriously banyak feels and humour. The dad laugh.gif
Sophiera
post Jul 11 2017, 07:21 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 11 2017, 08:50 AM)
I think it may help to detach from comparing yourself or to be concern with other people. It maybe hard but sometime we just have to do it.

This is supported by scripture as well, hence it's the life we are to live.
John 21:20-22 (NIV) - Peter turned and saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them. He was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper to ask, “Lord, who is going to betray You?”  When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?”  Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain until I return, what is that to you? You follow Me!”
1 Thessalonians 4:11 (NIV) - and to make it your ambition to lead a quiet life: You should mind your own business and work with your hands, just as we told you,
*
My hard work depend on popularity. No popularity = no people = nobody buy my stuff sad.gif

A lot of blood, sweat, and tears went into it. The lack of recognition makes me really bitter. And angry.

edit: ugh I'm really not going to be able to explain this right. I'm feeling overshadowed by someone who had hurt me and other friends in the past. They're not even doing it as a professional work. Me, on the other hand, doing thing professional... and borderline forgotten.

This post has been edited by Sophiera: Jul 11 2017, 07:43 PM
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 11 2017, 07:52 PM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Jul 11 2017, 07:21 PM)
My hard work depend on popularity. No popularity = no people = nobody buy my stuff sad.gif

A lot of blood, sweat, and tears went into it. The lack of recognition makes me really bitter. And angry.

edit: ugh I'm really not going to be able to explain this right. I'm feeling overshadowed by someone who had hurt me and other friends in the past. They're not even doing it as a professional work. Me, on the other hand, doing thing professional... and borderline forgotten.
*
Okay, I hear you.
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 12 2017, 11:28 AM

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QUOTE(leekangtao @ Jul 12 2017, 11:23 AM)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cremation_i...Christian_World

Can christian people after death being cremated coz no money?
*
Nothing wrong with cremation.
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 12 2017, 11:35 AM

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QUOTE(leekangtao @ Jul 12 2017, 11:30 AM)
but in bible. we are created by sand and should go to sand too liao. what can you explain about that verse?
*
Not sand. Ground of the Earth. Bible called it dust.

Nothing. When you die, your spirit is what is important, our body decay and returns back Earth in minute particles.

Don't see what is the problem.
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 12 2017, 12:56 PM

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QUOTE(leekangtao @ Jul 12 2017, 12:48 PM)
where is our spirit when we died?

Spirit go to hell can die liao?
*
Return back to God for judgement.
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post Jul 12 2017, 02:21 PM

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QUOTE(leekangtao @ Jul 12 2017, 01:00 PM)
so our spirit is sleep before the judgement?
*
There is a first death and second death.

First Death would involve Paradise and Hades. This is where our spirit reside until the second coming of Christ.

When Christ comes back again and after the millennial rule, the great tribulation, etc.....There will be the final Judgement when Earth and Heaven gives up all the dead for Judgement.

Second Death would involve New Heaven & Earth and the Lake of Fire.

I will only tell you what the Bible records. Anyone who is not found in the book of Life will be thrown into the Lake of Fire and those who are found will inherit their Salvation to be with God forever.

The Bible uses the term "sleep" is for meant for the believers because in essence we have pass over from death to life. For the unbelievers, separation from God, eternal torment.


» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 12 2017, 02:22 PM
De_Luffy
post Jul 12 2017, 08:56 PM

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From: Klang
Dear friends, a former pastor of my church passed away suddenly yesterday morning at the age of 60+
Please pray for his family members especially his wife as well as their children as they are quite young around age 18-25 only, please remember them in your prayers
Tomorrow is the funeral day and it would be the last time they would last see him. Going to be a very sad affairs for them

He is late Rev. Dr. Mark Chua from Kl hokkien methodist church
Sophiera
post Jul 12 2017, 11:42 PM

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Condolences to the family sad.gif
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post Jul 13 2017, 09:32 AM

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Why is it, at time the word of God doesn't take effect for some believers.

It's because the person is still in the learning process.

I feel the Lord wants me to share this.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My advise, don't feel bad, keep on learning and persevering in faith.

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post Jul 13 2017, 11:10 AM

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God wants you to live!

John 3:14 (NIV) - Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,

In this passage, our Lord Christ Jesus was talking about the incident when the israelites complaint against God, and God withdrew his protection, venomous snakes came in to bite and many died. Then the people approach Moses asking him to pray to God to take away the snakes.

Interestingly God answered but He did not take away the snake, instead He told moses to build a bronze snake on a pole and said..whoever looks at this bronze snake will live and interestingly the bible recorded in the next instance whenever someone was bitten but looked at the bronze snake he lived. This tells me, the snakes was still around even after Moses Prayer.

In the Hebrew word, the snakes was recorded as fiery serpents. Some translation use poison/venomous/ burning, etc. Whatever it is, the root word is haś·śə·rā·p̄îm which another occurance happened in Isaiah 6:6 where an Angel of God took burning coals to touch the lips of prophet Isaiah.

The point of John 3:14, is that when the people of God was afflicted, they were told to look at the bronze serpent on a pole and they lived. Jesus refer a likeness to what Moses did as the bronze serpent. When people look to Christ and believed, they too shall Live and not die.

Friends, God came to give us Life and not death. Never conclude evil affliction as the will of God so that you will die. God will is for you to LIVE! Even when the Israelites sinned against God and was punished by their own Fault, God in his Love still wants them to Live...else what is the point of creating that bronze serpent on a pole?

We must repent in our mind and be convinced God loves us and want us to have life and not only that Life more abundant as declared in John 10:10.

I pray that God will give you this revelation, that you may take that step of Faith to believe God is willing to heal if you have been afflicted in life for whatever condition.

Jesus was symbolically the bronze serpent as to the people of Israel back in Moses time. All they had to do was look and they lived, what more we who have the real substance, not the shadow but the lamb of God who came to give us life. Can we look to Christ, believe and live?

God Bless.


This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 13 2017, 01:26 PM
Sophiera
post Jul 13 2017, 05:35 PM

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Aah the bronze snake. I remember reading about its comparison with Jesus before.

I want to ask about what's the proper interpretation of the talents parable?

https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comme...comment/dk5ob04

From this thread there are people convinced that it means if you don't use your talents for Jesus, you'll go to Hell even if you believe His work on the cross.

rclxub.gif everything also masuk neraka.

So if it's nothing about salvastion, what does the parable of the servants and talents actually talk about?

This post has been edited by Sophiera: Jul 13 2017, 05:36 PM
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 13 2017, 07:08 PM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Jul 13 2017, 05:35 PM)
Aah the bronze snake. I remember reading about its comparison with Jesus before.

I want to ask about what's the proper interpretation of the talents parable?

https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comme...comment/dk5ob04

From this thread there are people convinced that it means if you don't use your talents for Jesus, you'll go to Hell even if you believe His work on the cross.

rclxub.gif everything also masuk neraka.

So if it's nothing about salvastion, what does the parable of the servants and talents actually talk about?
*
What does the very beginning words of Matthew 25:1 tells you?

What Age is it?
Sophiera
post Jul 13 2017, 08:05 PM

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I don't know actually. That's another one of those verses that made my head spin. Is that the end times?
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post Jul 13 2017, 08:16 PM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Jul 13 2017, 08:05 PM)
I don't know actually. That's another one of those verses that made my head spin. Is that the end times?
*
Yes the parables of the talents is in the context of tribulation period ...that's why Matthew 25:1 writes like this;

At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like...meaning it's a different gospel dispensation...not the same as what we have now..which is the gospel of God's grace.

This will happen after we are raptured up.

Those who are left behind are new believers who will have it the hard way...hence the meaning of the parable if you don't value the talents given, all will be taken away.

That's why it's called tribulation....it will tough for believers in that age.
Sophiera
post Jul 13 2017, 09:19 PM

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The future is scary sweat.gif Don't know where we'd end up and so on.
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post Jul 13 2017, 09:27 PM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Jul 13 2017, 09:19 PM)
The future is scary sweat.gif Don't know where we'd end up and so on.
*
In the matter of your Salvation, have the Faith, have the confidence because it's God who promised.

If it was man's promise, you and I would be right to be concern on the future as what you said.
NicoRobinz
post Jul 14 2017, 07:40 AM

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Hi Unknown Warrior,

Are Christians guaranteed to heaven?

What if this Christian truly believes in Jesus, yet he does many evil things?
biatche
post Jul 14 2017, 07:46 AM

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Jul 15 2017, 10:24 PM
This post has been deleted by unknown warrior because: NO argument.

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post Jul 14 2017, 08:28 AM

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QUOTE(NicoRobinz @ Jul 14 2017, 07:40 AM)
Hi Unknown Warrior,

Are Christians guaranteed to heaven?

What if this Christian truly believes in Jesus, yet he does many evil things?
*
Christian by definition means one who follows Christ hence Christ.."tians". To follow Christ would also mean to heed what Christ says about evil things, to understand that it is not right to do such thing because it is destructive and it destroys. God wants us to be in a place where people live in love and harmony hence the act of evil cannot be.

There's no such thing as one who follows Christ and yet does many evil things. Thus it would make no sense to say Christian who believe in Jesus and yet does many evil thing, it's like saying God delights in evil.

So Yes Christians are guaranteed by GOD to heaven, it's not just guaranteed just like that without the one who makes the guarantee involved.

The foundation is the cross, that is the divine justification why we are guaranteed to Heaven because someone qualified has pay a dear price for our entrance.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 14 2017, 08:39 AM
NicoRobinz
post Jul 14 2017, 09:10 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 14 2017, 08:28 AM)
Christian by definition means one who follows Christ hence Christ.."tians". To follow Christ would also mean to heed what Christ says about evil things, to understand that it is not right to do such thing because it is destructive and it destroys. God wants us to be in a place where people live in love and harmony hence the act of evil cannot be.

There's no such thing as one who follows Christ and yet does many evil things. Thus it would make no sense to say Christian who believe in Jesus and yet does many evil thing, it's like saying God delights in evil.

So Yes Christians are guaranteed by GOD to heaven, it's not just guaranteed just like that without the one who makes the guarantee involved.

The foundation is the cross, that is the divine justification why we are guaranteed to Heaven because someone qualified has pay a dear price for our entrance.
*
I believe those people do exist.

For example, Guan Yu is a popular deity worshiped by Chinese triads. Similarly, why can't a person does evil things and go back to Jesus and call himself a Christian?
NicoRobinz
post Jul 14 2017, 09:18 AM

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QUOTE(biatche @ Jul 14 2017, 07:46 AM)
there's always multiple answers for everything, whether true or not. some christians would tell you only god knows. some others will give you a technical evaluation. some funny people (like above) would simply quote you text from the bible and not answer your question and then someone will quote a contradictory quote from the bible.

you will need to die to find out really and then tell us all.
*
True, everyone has their own interpretation and that's the reason why we can see different denominations in a religion.

I believe the Bible doesn't contradict but sometimes, certain rules change depending to the situation and all holy books from different different religions can hardly cover all the situations and thus, leading to argument as different people see things differently.

This post has been edited by NicoRobinz: Jul 14 2017, 09:19 AM
TSunknown warrior
post Jul 14 2017, 09:23 AM

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QUOTE(NicoRobinz @ Jul 14 2017, 09:10 AM)
I believe those people do exist.

For example, Guan Yu is a popular deity worshiped by Chinese triads. Similarly, why can't a person does evil things and go back to Jesus and call himself a Christian?
*
I understand your question. We have people who proclaim to be Christians and yet live double life but my point is;

People who don't really understand the gospel is the core problem.

In most Church setting that I know of, whenever the gospel is shared and invitation to accept Christ are given out, the mention of the problem of sin and why we need to stop pursuing sin and that we need a saviour is usually explained.

If the person choose to ignore the sin part but prefer to just take on the saviour part, he/she has not really understood the gospel message and it's more than that.

It saddens me some Church hardly explain, on our own strength, it is impossible to turn away from sin. They just enforce you need to turn away. That has caused untold condemnation and guilt when one tries and fail. And one other matter is that..some Church hardly expound the Love of God that will cause the believers fall in love with God and let the love of sin go, they just force you to "love" god without even explaining what did God do. And there's some that is even worse, the mention of Jesus is not even there, what more the Cross that has remove and wash our sins away.

So the focus has gone down to what Man must do or not do, which makes it the worse by the lot. In such scenario, yes there maybe people subscribing to Jesus and yet does many evil things, as what you've said. You may say it's person own fault but I point it to incomplete preaching to move people to repentance.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 14 2017, 02:03 PM
biatche
post Jul 14 2017, 09:26 AM

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Jul 15 2017, 10:25 PM
This post has been deleted by unknown warrior because: NO Argument.

biatche
post Jul 14 2017, 09:28 AM

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Jul 15 2017, 10:25 PM
This post has been deleted by unknown warrior because: NO Argument.

NicoRobinz
post Jul 14 2017, 09:52 AM

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QUOTE(biatche @ Jul 14 2017, 09:26 AM)
im sure googling bible contradictions will have plenty of results -- ive not read them. but im sure there SURELY are contradictions.

also, that's your belief, like everybody elses belief.... how is your belief anymore supreme to another persons?
*
Whatever you put on Google search, I'm sure there will be results no matter how ridiculous it is. Moreover, contradictions do happen in Bible if you do not know the whole story. After reading Bible for quite some time, what I thought unreasonable last time actually makes sense. Even so, I wouldn't say I completely agree with the Bible. At least not now.

As for whose belief is more supreme, I would rather say religion is meant to be shared and not to brag. For example, I share Christianity with you hoping you will see Jesus is the true God and from there, you may have some understanding about Christianity to see its differences with other religions. Even if you do not agree, it's fine for me. I didn't agree with many things at first either.
biatche
post Jul 14 2017, 11:08 AM

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QUOTE(NicoRobinz @ Jul 14 2017, 09:52 AM)
Whatever you put on Google search, I'm sure there will be results no matter how ridiculous it is. Moreover, contradictions do happen in Bible if you do not know the whole story. After reading Bible for quite some time, what I thought unreasonable last time actually makes sense. Even so, I wouldn't say I completely agree with the Bible. At least not now.

As for whose belief is more supreme, I would rather say religion is meant to be shared and not to brag. For example, I share Christianity with you hoping you will see Jesus is the true God and from there, you may have some understanding about Christianity to see its differences with other religions. Even if you do not agree, it's fine for me. I didn't agree with many things at first either.
*
There will always be supporting points for A, and counter-supporting points for B. It's called duality.

You can't completely agree with the bible -- at least not now -- so you need convincing points to eventually fully agree with it? it's all about letting yourself get convinced?

Sometimes when you are in the process, you cannot see yourself being the processed. Humans have this inherent tendency to follow some culture, tradition. With religion, in similarity, it can be used to control people. In fact, although I am against religion, I do conclude that religion is necessary in the world, because of ridiculous people who'd go out of control and harm everything in their path. I mean it's ridiculous enough that people can just fall for blind faith like christianity, so without it, who knows what's possible.
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QUOTE(biatche @ Jul 14 2017, 11:08 AM)
There will always be supporting points for A, and counter-supporting points for B. It's called duality.

You can't completely agree with the bible -- at least not now -- so you need convincing points to eventually fully agree with it? it's all about letting yourself get convinced?

Sometimes when you are in the process, you cannot see yourself being the processed. Humans have this inherent tendency to follow some culture, tradition. With religion, in similarity, it can be used to control people. In fact, although I am against religion, I do conclude that religion is necessary in the world, because of ridiculous people who'd go out of control and harm everything in their path. I mean it's ridiculous enough that people can just fall for blind faith like christianity, so without it, who knows what's possible.
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Well, it's not about letting myself to be convinced, but I'll read the Bible and ask questions if there's anything that I can't understand or doesn't make sense to me.

You may see religions are there to control people but I see religions are there to give hope. This is because I have seen many heartbroken people have healed themselves in churches. People may call it as blind faith or they are being delusional but many followers claim they have experienced encounter with God. In another word, it's not blind faith for them. Even it's a blind faith, I don't see what is so bad about it. I have been attending churches for quite some time and I can see they are supporting each other like family.

This post has been edited by NicoRobinz: Jul 14 2017, 12:30 PM
biatche
post Jul 14 2017, 06:23 PM

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Jul 15 2017, 10:25 PM
This post has been deleted by unknown warrior because: NO Argument.

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post Jul 14 2017, 08:14 PM

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biatche have you read page 1 of this thread?
biatche
post Jul 15 2017, 12:48 AM

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post Jul 15 2017, 07:21 PM

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There's a reason why This thread is called Christian Fellowship thread. All the Christians in here already believe in God for so many years, we have lived our life as Christians for so many year. This place is for us to gather because we have similar interest which is our belief in God Almighty.

Who are you and What makes you think you can throw the word "deceiving" as if you knew our lives or you know us in person?

So refrain from using the word "deceiving" when you are the one who is out of place, don't even know what he's talking, what more abusing his welcome stay.

If it gives you the pleasure to argue, you're welcome to do it in other threads but not here.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 15 2017, 07:30 PM
biatche
post Jul 15 2017, 07:34 PM

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post Jul 15 2017, 07:38 PM

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Not going to bother.

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biatche
post Jul 15 2017, 07:51 PM

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post Jul 15 2017, 07:57 PM

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Not going to bother.

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biatche
post Jul 15 2017, 08:10 PM

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Sophiera
post Jul 15 2017, 09:34 PM

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You're not in RWI. This is Serious Kopitiam. RWI is not the same as Serious Kopitiam

RWI has their own board over here: https://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showforum=74

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post Jul 15 2017, 10:23 PM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Jul 15 2017, 09:34 PM)
You're not in RWI. This is Serious Kopitiam. RWI is not the same as Serious Kopitiam

RWI has their own board over here: https://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?showforum=74
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Just ignore him, I've reported him to the mods for trying to stir up provocation.

I think there mental nut people in this forum. Some people just cannot be normal and be courteous, just have to act like a psychopath in trying to to provoke people "must" argue otherwise the world will end.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 15 2017, 10:31 PM
biatche
post Jul 15 2017, 10:49 PM

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Sophiera
post Jul 16 2017, 01:49 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 15 2017, 10:23 PM)
Just ignore him, I've reported him to the mods for trying to stir up provocation.

I think there mental nut people in this forum. Some people just cannot be normal and be courteous, just have to act like a psychopath in trying to to provoke people "must" argue otherwise the world will end.
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You know UW, I've seen some seriously surreal stuff on Tumblr In Action's Reddit page. At first it was about one website, now it includes any outlandish logic on the internet.

Nothing really surprises me anymore. Or at least, most things.
Sophiera
post Jul 17 2017, 06:56 PM

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I'm having trouble reconciliating two things. How is it possible that God wants us to live an abundant life, but the Christian path is not meant to be a happy one?

Many Christians believe that life is all suffering as a side effect of going against the world. Is life on Earth unhappy by default? Or a happy life is a sign of getting too comfortable?
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post Jul 18 2017, 08:26 AM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Jul 17 2017, 06:56 PM)
I'm having trouble reconciliating two things. How is it possible that God wants us to live an abundant life, but the Christian path is not meant to be a happy one?

Many Christians believe that life is all suffering as a side effect of going against the world. Is life on Earth unhappy by default? Or a happy life is a sign of getting too comfortable?
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I think Jesus' sermon on the beattitudes can answer you on this.

Replace all the 'blessed' with 'happy' and Jesus is telling us the true meaning of happiness. Original greek word for blessed is makarios, happy.

He flips over everything that people understood about happiness.


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post Jul 18 2017, 08:53 AM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Jul 17 2017, 06:56 PM)
I'm having trouble reconciliating two things. How is it possible that God wants us to live an abundant life, but the Christian path is not meant to be a happy one?

Many Christians believe that life is all suffering as a side effect of going against the world. Is life on Earth unhappy by default? Or a happy life is a sign of getting too comfortable?
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Christian life is meant to be a joyful one even though persecuted. And Yes to live an abundant life is backup by the Lord.

People (generally) unhappy in this world because they're in bondage to the god of this world so you need to know the difference, who is the one who is enforcing the unhappiness.

Sometimes the problem lies with the people themselves thinking God wants them to have an unhappy life but if you study the bible in detail, everywhere and everytime God tells you to be joyful and always wants to blesses you in your predicament. This is true even in the beatitude as thomas mentioned.


When the bible make mention to put on sadness it's usually in the context towards people who have no heart for God. The reason being, they need to be humbled to look away from self.
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post Jul 19 2017, 03:04 AM

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ohmy.gif I learned something new today!

Hmm... the beatitudes are the following....

Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are they who mourn, for they will be comforted.
Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the land.
Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be satisfied.
Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the clean of heart, for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.
Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

I'm finding it rather hard to imagine it in real life. Do you guys know of personal antecodes of this happening in practice? Maybe it's because most of the time I hear secular or athiestic worldviews. It's very hard to find a Christian example without it lamblasted as fantasy.

This post has been edited by Sophiera: Jul 19 2017, 03:07 AM
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post Jul 19 2017, 09:08 AM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Jul 19 2017, 03:04 AM)
ohmy.gif  I learned something new today!

Hmm... the beatitudes are the following....

Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are they who mourn, for they will be comforted.
Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the land.
Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be satisfied.
Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the clean of heart, for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.
Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

I'm finding it rather hard to imagine it in real life. Do you guys know of personal antecodes of this happening in practice? Maybe it's because most of the time I hear secular or athiestic worldviews. It's very hard to find a Christian example without it lamblasted as fantasy.
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I want to explain 1 example. No not an anecdote. Just an insight (revelation).

Blessed are the poor in spirit are not just referring to financially poor people.

This poor can also mean one who is destitute and in desperate need of God. Truth is, those who are without God are poor in every sense.

However the focus is not on being poor...this is where some people missed it. If you read carefully, see where God wants this poor person to be in.

The focus is here is being blessed and the kingdom of heaven is theirs.

As I've said God always want the person to be in state of being joyful and blessed.

Problem is...people always see the negative words but lack the desire to see the revelation of where God wants them to be. Hence some will coin their own conclusion and form what they think is from God, by saying "Oh God wants me to be poor" "Oh it's better to be poor"..I can quote some of the verse they think supports what they say and I can debunk the error if anyone shows this to me.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 19 2017, 11:07 AM
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post Jul 19 2017, 11:39 AM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Jul 19 2017, 03:04 AM)

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It is true that poor in spirit is not financially poor as uw pointed out.

It is the spiritual bankrupt attitude (think the pharasee and the tax collector, the tax collector that was beating on his chest crying out for forgiveness, he was the one justified) that will allow for them to see the kingdom.

What Im trying to say is, worldly happiness dont last.

You can only find true and lasting contentment in our Lord Jesus Christ. Saturate yourself with the knowledge of God, the bible and you will know what I mean.

Study the life of Paul, he was constantly beaten, running for his life, persecuted, go in hunger, cold, etc. but in his epistles he was still able to give praise and be joyful for what little he had. He faith took him all the way to matyrdom.
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post Jul 19 2017, 08:10 PM

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I memang salute Paul. His life so hard, but he's so grateful with his missions and so on.

It sometimes get hard for me when I'm surrounded by non-Jesus philosophies. Makes me wonder 'what if I'm the one who's wrong?'
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post Jul 20 2017, 11:23 AM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Jul 19 2017, 08:10 PM)
I memang salute Paul. His life so hard, but he's so grateful with his missions and so on.

It sometimes get hard for me when I'm surrounded by non-Jesus philosophies. Makes me wonder 'what if I'm the one who's wrong?'
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Hence why it's important for you to experience God in your life. When you have too many "coincidences" of God answering your specific prayers, that is how you know.

God has many times expressed himself in the Bible, As the true Living God, this expression isn't just for us to read it and feel nice...it is for reality experience for the purpose of letting us know, He is real.

Hence why I'm against any doctrine purported to disarm God's miracle as something elusive.



This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 20 2017, 11:26 AM
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post Jul 21 2017, 09:43 AM

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Always Live and Pray in the sense of the Father's Love

Good Day friends,

I used to feel that whenever I pray to God, I imagined God on his throne looking down to where I am but in a neutral or impartial manner. It's hard to imagine how God sees us when we can't see him. Many times we judge the outlook of God based on what we see...the silent 4 corners of our room seem to depict God louder than anything.

The Lord impressed on me to tell you this, See God as how Jesus revealed Him in the story of the prodigal Son.

When God took the first step of running, couldn't wait to run to his lost son...when his son was on his way home. That is how God is when we come to Him in prayer, you think you're the one coming to Him in prayer but truth is God is looking forward,couldn't wait for you to come...He Loves to have our time, He loves for us to come to Him in prayer. And that is Bible truth. Never make circumstance to overshadow the truth of who God is, like the silence of the 4 corners of your room. And when you pray, remember He love you. Don't try to imagine this in theory but actualize this in believing.

Pray with the sense God loves you, don't pray trying to beg God as if God needs to be convinced as if He is folding his arm. That is not praying in Faith and That is not praying in the Father's Love.
Praying in the sense of the Father's Love is praying according to the truth of this word, very aptly..this verse.

Romans 8:32 (NIV) - He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?

Hold on to this truth, ignore the sayings of people. Look to the word of God as Truth and believe. Don't be discourage if God says No, trust a No from God is for your good and God may have something better in mind for you. But pray in Faith believing God will!

I pray you will experience God manifesting his reality in your life.

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post Jul 21 2017, 11:26 AM

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QUOTE(Prinny @ Jul 21 2017, 10:45 AM)
no rules about eating? what bout Leviticus 11? and Deuteronomy 12:23 speaks about not eating blood?
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If you're a Jew and if you're living under the old covenant, those were the rules to follow if you want to avoid being unclean.

As Christians, the way we get cleaned is by accepting what Christ did at the cross by faith, plus Jesus did mentioned what goes into our mouth (food) does not make us unclean anymore.

Hence there are no rules that bound a Christian regarding food.

With that being said, of course we don't partake things like blood, but food like pork is okay.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 21 2017, 01:36 PM
Sophiera
post Jul 22 2017, 05:18 PM

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Everyone in the thread: are spoken prayers always more powerful than silent ones? Someone once taught me that prayers won't be as effective if not spoken. Because, the logic of breath.

The Holy Spirit is the breath of God. So so best effect we follow His ways and pronounce breath too.
Sophiera
post Jul 22 2017, 11:25 PM

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https://twitter.com/NAQureshi/status/888068668051140609

From Nabeel Qureshi: Hey everyone, I'm having an emergency endoscopy today, going to the hospital now. Please pray for me. Psalm 34.6

sad.gif That doesn't sound good.
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post Jul 23 2017, 12:37 PM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Jul 22 2017, 05:18 PM)
Everyone in the thread: are spoken prayers always more powerful than silent ones? Someone once taught me that prayers won't be as effective if not spoken. Because, the logic of breath.

The Holy Spirit is the breath of God. So so best effect we follow His ways and pronounce breath too.
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Spoken words increases our Faith according to our Savior...so you think leh? biggrin.gif

I would think it does help to speak out.

Does God answer both, Yes. But why spoken is better?

Jesus said "speak" to the mountain, never said...mutter in silence against the mountain. It's interesting just before that his disciple asked Him How to increase their Faith before He told them to speak....

Think about it.

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Sophia Logica
post Jul 23 2017, 02:06 PM

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Hi. Am a Christian for since I'm 10 (32 now), and you can say I'm kinda...wavering in my faith. Used to be strong in faith, but nowadays...not so much. Tried praying and all, but seems like it doesn't mean anything.

Advice?
Sophiera
post Jul 23 2017, 04:54 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 23 2017, 12:37 PM)
Spoken words increases our Faith according to our Savior...so you think leh?  biggrin.gif

I would think it does help to speak out.

Does God answer both, Yes. But why spoken is better?

Jesus said "speak" to the mountain, never said...mutter in silence against the mountain.  It's interesting just before that his disciple asked Him How to increase their Faith before He told them to speak....

Think about it.
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I personally don't agree. Jesus also said that when you pray, do it behind closed doors.

If we say there's more value to spoken prayer, we're putting faith in the method of prayer instead of the One behind it. Kinda like magic words de.
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post Jul 23 2017, 09:28 PM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Jul 23 2017, 04:54 PM)
I personally don't agree. Jesus also said that when you pray, do it behind closed doors.

If we say there's more value to spoken prayer, we're putting faith in the method of prayer instead of the One behind it. Kinda like magic words de.
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The close doors are in the context, God wants sincere prayers to Him not showy prayer for others to see or heard to be impressed. Sincere prayer means honest prayer where many times it's just simple prayers, prayers that may not sound churchy or full of church lingo, at time it may sound silly or prayers that is un-eloquent. As long as your prayers are sincere, it's a prayer...even a groan is a prayer.

Close door doesn't mean we must pray behind close doors all the time else what about your Friday/Wed Prayer meet in Church? I mean everyone there is expected to pray, you don't suddenly go in a private room to pray alone and what about time of emergency, time of sudden distress where there are no private room to pray?

But the principal of increasing one Faith has to do with spoken words and Jesus tells us to "say it out" or voice it out against our mountain. It's in Luke 17:5-6 and Matthew 17:20.

And Yes you're right What make things happen is the one who is behind our prayers, God where our Faith hooks on but still "spoken words" is what Jesus said about vocalizing it out is in those verses., It's the principal of God's kingdom.

Luke 17:5-6 (NIV) - 5 The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!” 6 And the Lord said, “If you had faith like a mustard seed, you would say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be uprooted and be planted in the sea’; and it would obey you.

Matthew 17:20 (NIV) - He replied, "Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."

The word say in the Greek is "ereó" which means (denoting speech in progress), (a) I say, speak; I mean, mention, tell, (b) I call, name, especially in the pass., © I tell, command.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 23 2017, 10:36 PM
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post Jul 23 2017, 10:11 PM

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QUOTE(Sophia Logica @ Jul 23 2017, 02:06 PM)
Hi. Am a Christian for since I'm 10 (32 now), and you can say I'm kinda...wavering in my faith. Used to be strong in faith, but nowadays...not so much. Tried praying and all, but seems like it doesn't mean anything.

Advice?
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Hi, I haven't got to know you so...I'm might be presuming somethings.

I think it's more than prayer, it has to do with life itself.

Well, there's basically 2 opposing forces of 2 different world/kingdom that's competing for your Life. It all depends on where you put your heart in. If you spend your life chasing after the things of this world, you need to know, this world is designed to hinder the interest of God and to make God elusive in many ways.

It's the powers behind that system that's causing this.

You can pray a simple prayer for God to help you see this and to help you understand God...it may sound like an ironic prayer but God does answer such prayers.
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post Jul 24 2017, 03:28 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 23 2017, 10:11 PM)
Hi, I haven't got to know you so...I'm might be presuming somethings.

I think it's more than prayer, it has to do with life itself.

Well, there's basically 2 opposing forces of 2 different world/kingdom that's competing for your Life. It all depends on where you put your heart in. If you spend your life chasing after the things of this world, you need to know, this world is designed to hinder the interest of God and to make God elusive in many ways.

It's the powers behind that system that's causing this.

You can pray a simple prayer for God to help you see this and to help you understand God...it may sound like an ironic prayer but God does answer such prayers.
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Thanks but...I don't know whether it'll work, I mean, I asked for signs, and I prayed many, many times, only to feel I'm drifting further apart. I'm not even sure if God is deliberately doing this to punish me, or if He wants me to be patient, or whether I wasn't praying correctly, or whether if, anything. I mean I needed only 1 sign, but I'm not even sure if they are signs or not. I don't understand God just wouldn't talk straight to me...it's just, I dunno, it hurts when you want someone to respond, but you can't hear them at all no matter how much you want to.
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post Jul 24 2017, 09:09 AM

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QUOTE(Sophia Logica @ Jul 24 2017, 03:28 AM)
Thanks but...I don't know whether it'll work, I mean, I asked for signs, and I prayed many, many times, only to feel I'm drifting further apart. I'm not even sure if God is deliberately doing this to punish me, or if He wants me to be patient, or whether I wasn't praying correctly, or whether if, anything. I mean I needed only 1 sign, but I'm not even sure if they are signs or not. I don't understand God just wouldn't talk straight to me...it's just, I dunno, it hurts when you want someone to respond, but you can't hear them at all no matter how much you want to.
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Perhaps you have a wrong view/understanding of God that's hindering your prayer...I call it wrong belief system or in Bible lingo, wrong sort of faith.

First you need to establish, God is not out to punish you. There are many verses that speaks of this. One such example.

2 Corinthians 5:18-19 (NIV) - All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

See the word there "not counting"? That is an accounting word in definition in the greek. (NT was recorded in Greek) So you need to get erroneous understanding out of your system.

Second we need to understand, we cannot force our view/expectation what we think about God, that God must react in the way of our view/expectation. I give you 1 example, there are Christians who tell me today God no longer work healing because the way people heal is not the same as in the Bible, they will quote in the Bible everyone was healed instantly so they expect the same to happen today.....the argument is that today's healing are slow...they take time, so it's natural body healing and it's not from God some may go as far as to say it's from from the devil if someone says God still heals today.

I can easily debunk that sort of reasoning, during the Bible time, majority of the noted Man/Woman of God could easily hear the audible voice of God, so if today we don't hear the same "audible" voice of God, like Moses did,, like Elijah did, like Jonah did, like Paul and all the disciples did then how? then does it mean the Christian life is no longer valid, God ceased to exist or no longer speaks today? Do you see how flawed our own reasoning can be?

Third, God has instituted Faith as the core style of the Christian Life. Without Faith it's impossible to please God. Is Faith meant to be used only once or twice when we need God? No, Faith is to be used daily, the rest of our Christian Life until we die. If we give up on faith along the way, we have not complete what God require of us as Christians. You have seen the notable great Man of Women of God, how God move mightily in their life. How God responded to them so consistently. Do you think they had it easy? No, they went through the same training which I believe you need to go through. Without Faith, our Christian life is incomplete.

I've always propagated robust faith, stubborn faith or aggressive Faith if you will, because I believe some of you needed it to understand and see God move.

To further elaborate, God the father reside in the 3rd Heaven (highest Heaven) and Lord Jesus Christ has risen and was taken up, now resides in the same place as Father God in Heaven. God has given us his 3rd trinity part...the Holy Spirit to be with us here on Earth. This is how God communicates with us, through his Holy Spirit, through his word in the Bible. And God has made it in such a way because He instituted Faith as the core living of the Christian Life. If God were to openly speaks, then Faith is no longer required and that would contradict what He has instituted for everyone.

And why Faith? So that everyone has equal opportunity to know God, everyone will have equal ground because anyone from the disabled to the rich can learn to believe. If God were to instituted strict adherence to his laws so that only those who successfully adhere then He will only speak, then not everyone can do that. It would not be fair of God, would it?

And about signs. When you asked in Faith for God to show you a sign, it may be within a short time or a long time. Whichever it is, you can see the same signal being given to you from various people, from your environment..whatever it is, you will know in your spirit..that there is a peace and you're not troubled in seeing the same thing being spoken through different vessel (people or environment, things). If you have unrest and no peace about it, then that is not a sign from God. It could also be a "NO" as your answer because God may have something else in mind for you.



Sophiera
post Jul 26 2017, 06:53 PM

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What does it mean by 'working out your faith in fear and trembling'? Some Christians/Catholics believe that nobody truly knows if they're saved until they die. When you ask them why, that's what they will quote.
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post Jul 27 2017, 08:17 AM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Jul 26 2017, 06:53 PM)
What does it mean by 'working out your faith in fear and trembling'? Some Christians/Catholics believe that nobody truly knows if they're saved until they die. When you ask them why, that's what they will quote.
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There has been a misconception about justification and sanctification for many decades now.

Christians have been preaching cheap gospel, ie believe in Jesus and you will go to heaven.

But they do not take into account where Jesus said to count the cost, take up your cross and follow me, hate the world etc. if you want to follow Him.

That is why they cannot make sense of verses like working out your salvation etc.

In short, when you come to follow Jesus (justification) you need to be a disciple of Him, you have to be OBEDIENT to Him, OBEY what He says, be prepared to die for Him, and the gospel(sanctification)

The true saving faith is guaranteed when you obey Him. (Parable of the sower, parable of the wheat and tares)

Everything else just does not cut it.

Pick up a book by John Macarthur titled The Gospel according to Jesus and you will understand this fully.

This post has been edited by thomasthai: Jul 27 2017, 08:20 AM
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post Jul 27 2017, 09:17 AM

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Work it out!

Philippians 2:12 (NIV) - Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

There's a question that some may asked, why do we need to work out our salvation with fear and trembling? Does it mean we don't know if we are actually saved therefore we need work for our salvation and because we are not save, we need to be in fear and quake in trembling? I will address this from Bible perspective.

Philippians 2:12in the NIV started with a "therefore" so it means I have to read the preceding verse before this, to understand and apparently Philippians 2:1 also started with a therefore, so it means I have to backtrack to Philippians 1 and read it before I can understand Philippians 2. In Philippians 1 Apostle Paul was talking about his struggle between staying here on earth or to be with our Lord Jesus Christ. This give us insight of Paul choosing getting ready to die. Some people purported that to be a Christian is so serious, we need to be serious with everyone, exhibiting hardcore trait because we need to be ready to be martyred. Truth is Paul choosed, it was his willing choice not enforce by, in fact He mention it is "far better to be with Christ" and yet Paul understood love. If you meet such ignorant Christians exhibiting a preacher of doom trait, always fighting and being bitter with others, ignore such people, they are ignorant of the gospel giving a bad testimony to Christ. However the point is, Paul write in a way affirming He was already saved. Nobody would be willing to die if he is not convinced of the person he is to die for. Look at verse 28 of Philippians 1...the phrase "..that you will be saved—and that by God"

Now In Philippians 1, Paul was exhorting us, to conduct ourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, meaning watch your character and conduct. In Philippians 2, Paul started off by saying... if you have anything encouraging from being united with Christ, meaning knowing that you are already saved (hence "being united") therefore think like how Christ think and being one in spirit and of one mind with another brethren.

In Simple words, since you are already saved, start acting like one! And we come to the main verse of our devotion today, work out your salvation with fear or trembling. It is to start having a goal and the to be convinced, because you are saved, be how God wants you to be...humble, consider others better than yourself, do nothing out of selfish vanity, etc. Work out the life of how one who is saved (hence the meaning work out your salvation) and do it with fear and trembling, meaning do it with reverent fear of God and with joy of trembling not horror of trembling. Where do we get this meaning? Never interpret the meaning of the word of the bible on your own, always let the Bible define it's meaning. Bible interpret Bible. If you look at Psalm 2:11, this is the most accurate to help understand why Paul always uses the phrase "with fear and trembling" in his letters.

The words and the context used in the Bible always assures us of our Salvation, never the opposite. If you look at verse 13 of Philippians 2, it says:

for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.. How can you not be saved and yet God works in you..remember the context here is "IN YOU" meaning referring to the work of the Holy Spirit which again I must re-iterate how can you not be saved and yet have the Holy Spirit?

In Summary, the Bible is saying Work out your salvation because you are saved, not work out your salvation in order to be saved as you've seen in context of what was explained.

Will you not be assured that you are indeed Saved by the Grace of God?

God Bless


This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 27 2017, 10:35 AM
Sophiera
post Jul 28 2017, 07:38 PM

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Eh any news of the guy who got really sick? is he ok?
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post Jul 31 2017, 09:13 AM

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"Jabez cried out to the God of Israel, “Oh, that you would bless me
and enlarge my territory! Let your hand be with me, and keep me from
harm so that I will be free from pain.” And God granted his request."
1 Chronicles 4:10 (NIV)

This prayer definitely debunks a lot of theology teaching out there.
Best of all God granted that prayer. Some Christians just don't like it that we have a God who loves to prosper his children.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 31 2017, 09:15 AM
Sophiera
post Jul 31 2017, 03:06 PM

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I thought they would argue that it's in the past era?
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post Jul 31 2017, 04:35 PM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Jul 31 2017, 03:06 PM)
I thought they would argue that it's in the past era?
*
For me past or present is not the point.

What's important is that God hates sin and doesn't condone something that is wrong.
Yet God answered that prayer. If something that is deemed wrong in the past, would have been wrong in the present imo.

Jabez prayed a prayer many would deemed as something selfish.

"God Bless me and enlarge the boundary of my possession." That is like asking God to prosper the person and also to spare the person for "pain" of life.

I think some people would flip at this sort of prayer and yet that was what it was.

I'm want to destroy the argument that praying for prosperity is wrong.

before someone else mouth start to foam...this is not asking God for millions of dollars. laugh.gif
*I'm just going to stop here and see reactions from far.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Jul 31 2017, 04:36 PM
Sophiera
post Aug 1 2017, 05:00 PM

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I guess folks are busy.

How does prophecy work? I had one saying that I'll be a teacher. Back then i believed it because i was a teacher in training but now... Not a teacher anymore.

What does it mean to be a teaher too? Is it going to be something i never expect or? I mean, nobody expected Jesus' story to turn out like it did.

I just had a dream that i was tutoring kids. Sakit hati when i woke up and it turns out to be all a dream.
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5 Reasons The “Prosperity Gospel” Is Actually A Non-Christian Religion
April 28, 2017 by Benjamin L. Corey



Does being a good and faithful Christian result in good health, a long life, having an abundance of possessions, and material wealth?

That’s the subtle/not so subtle belief of a brand of Christianity that’s often called the “prosperity gospel.”
There is a growing number of Christians who believe that– a shocking amount, actually. And not just in the United States, either– this is a growing belief around the world. I think this is happening in large part because charismatic Christianity is the fastest growing brand of Christianity in many places, and the prosperity gospel is something that seems to have infected charismatic circles more than others.
While I believe we as Christians ought be careful about declaring who is in and who is out (I feel the wrath of the heretic hunters, so I know what that’s like), when it comes to this belief system that associates being a good Christian with materialism, health, and wealth, we cannot be silent or tip-toe over words: the prosperity gospel is completely outside the Christian religion. It’s not Christianity, period.
Here’s 5 reasons why:


5. The prosperity gospel encourages us to be money focused instead of people focused.
Within the prosperity movement, the ultimate goal is how to get from here (lack of material wealth) to there (an abundance of material wealth).
This places the ultimate focus of this religion on materialism– but that’s not what Christianity is focused on.
Christianity is a religion that is focused on other people– how to love other people, how to disciple other people in the ways of Jesus, and how to be the tangible agent of God in the lives of others. Nothing about true Christianity is about self– in fact, Jesus said to become a Christian you actually had to die to self.


4. The prosperity gospel promotes a performance based religion.
Christianity is not a religion about performance, but the prosperity gospel is all about performance.
The prosperity gospel teaches that if you do X, Y, and Z (one of them usually involves sending money into a guy on TV) that you will get more in return (a concept they call “sowing”). This paradigm sees God’s favor as something you earn by doing, instead of something you receive freely by God’s grace alone.
In fact, Jesus blew this concept out of the water when he described God’s love and favor as being like the rain which falls upon those who do good and those who do evil. He even went on to say that God is actually kind to the wicked.
But instead of seeing God’s love and blessing as something freely given through his grace, the prosperity gospel associates God’s favor with right behavior, and interprets hard times as God holding back his favor. But according to the Bible, none of that is true.


3. The prosperity gospel promotes one of the most frequently condemned sins in Scripture: greed.
The prosperity gospel is a gospel of more, and that completely stands against what Christianity is about.
One of the most frequently condemned sins in scripture is that of greed, even going so far as to say that greed is idolatry. In fact, the apostle Paul found greed to be such a repulsive form of idolatry that he commanded Christians to refuse to even share meals with someone who claimed to be Christian, but was greedy.
Instead, the Christian message is one of learning to be content with what you have. In the 10 Commandments we’re taught to not “covet” which is the same as saying, “thou shalt be content with what you have.” Again, Paul talks about this and recognizes that life will have cycles where you have plenty, and cycles where you don’t have enough, but that what God wants for us in all those places is to be content with what we have.
Bottom line: if you have what you need, but still want more– especially while others go without– you are greedy, and this sin is biblically considered wickedness, even if modern society (and Americanized Christianity) excuses it.


2. The prosperity gospel promotes elitism among the body of Christ.
One of the central beliefs of Christianity is that we are all on an equal playing field in God’s eyes. We are all created in the image of God and have unsurpassable worth, so much so that Jesus died for us. For those of us who are Christians, the Bible says we are all part of “one body” and that we are equal. However, the prosperity gospel has a way of creating an elite status of Christians– because if you’re really rich, it must be because you’re doing it better than everyone else.
Case in point: a few years ago prosperity preachers Kenneth Copeland and Jesse Duplantis argued that they needed to fly in private jets because flying commercial on an airline was like getting in a “long tube with a bunch of demons.” They also lamented how annoying it would be for people to come up to them and ask for prayer… thus, they “need” to fly in private jets.
This kind of disgusting elitism is not just outside of Christianity, it’s opposed to Christianity. It in no way reflects the homeless Jesus who hung out with the worst of sinners.



1. The prosperity gospel perverts God’s purpose in material blessing.
Can or does God bless with material excess? Certainly! The Bible says that every good and perfect gift we receive comes from God. But the prosperity gospel forgets that, in occasions where God blesses someone with financial or material excess, that blessing comes with a specific purpose: to bless others.
When God gives us more than what we need, he does so in the hopes that we will honor him by sharing it with others who don’t have enough. The early church in the book of Acts actually founded the earliest Christian community on this premise– when they had more than needed, they shared their wealth so that there were “no poor among them.”
The idea that God gives some people more than what they need so that they can enjoy the high-life of luxury while people around them die of hunger and illness, is a disgusting perversion of the actual Gospel.

There’s plenty of things that are killing the church today, but one of the biggest things killing the church is the rise of a false, anti-Christ religion that so many people mistakenly believe is part of Christianity.
Let me be blunt: the prosperity gospel and those who preach it are not part of the Christian religion. They just made up their own religion of materialism and are falsely calling it “Christian.”




skydrake
post Aug 2 2017, 01:35 AM

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I smells the entire article was plot twisted preaching of prosperity leads to materialism.
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post Aug 2 2017, 08:16 AM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Aug 1 2017, 05:00 PM)
I guess folks are busy.

How does prophecy work? I had one saying that I'll be a teacher. Back then i believed it because i was a teacher in training but now... Not a teacher anymore.

What does it mean to be a teaher too? Is it going to be something i never expect or? I mean, nobody expected Jesus' story to turn out like it did.

I just had a dream that i was tutoring kids. Sakit hati when i woke up and it turns out to be all a dream.
*
Was it, that somebody just said it, instead of being prophesied by someone telling you it's from God?
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post Aug 2 2017, 08:26 AM

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Romans 8:26 (NLT) - And the Holy Spirit helps us in our weakness. For example, we don't know what God wants us to pray for. But the Holy Spirit prays for us with groanings that cannot be expressed in words.

It's interesting the word Help in the Greek = sunantilambanomai which means: lend a hand along with, take interest in (a thing) along with (others), assist jointly to perform some task, cooperate with, take my share in, help, aid.

Word study defines it like this: to give assistance with full initiative

How is it the Holy Spirit helps us to pray with full initiative and with groans that's too deep for word? Remember the point here is that the H.S is the one taking the full initiative leading us in prayer with groans that cannot be expressed. And the expression is through our vocalising..that is what it means assist jointly or lend a hand along with.

Let's assume for a moment praying in tongues is not what is meant here...how does this happen for the believer? If anyone were to see the believer praying in such spirit would be shocked to think he's mental isn't it?

Think about it. Let me know your thoughts you Anti-Speaking in tongue denomination. What does this verse means?

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Aug 2 2017, 01:37 PM
wondernoob
post Aug 2 2017, 02:42 PM

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Hello! Just dropping by, used to lurk sometime back spending lots of time reading the squabbles. May or may not lurk again depending on how active I am on LYN ;D Happy fellowship-ing and GBU all.
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post Aug 2 2017, 03:13 PM

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QUOTE(wondernoob @ Aug 2 2017, 02:42 PM)
Hello! Just dropping by, used to lurk sometime back spending lots of time reading the squabbles.  May or may not lurk again depending on how active I am on LYN ;D Happy fellowship-ing and GBU all.
*
thank you bro. GB.
Sophiera
post Aug 2 2017, 05:08 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 2 2017, 08:16 AM)
Was it, that somebody just said it, instead of being prophesied by someone telling you it's from God?
*
???

I don't understand what mean. If it's just an opinion? Nah. It's supposed to be from God.
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post Aug 2 2017, 07:37 PM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Aug 2 2017, 05:08 PM)
???

I don't understand what mean. If it's just an opinion? Nah. It's supposed to be from God.
*
Well if you believe it's from God then hold on to it. icon_rolleyes.gif

It can come true in the future even if you don't feel like it may.

We can't predict the future.
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post Aug 3 2017, 10:30 AM

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God is no longer angry at you.

Hebrews 10:17 (KJV) - And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

It's great isn't it? To hear that God does not remember our sins and iniquity anymore? If God does remember your sins, then God would contradict Himself in Hebrews 10:17. Some people argue that Hebrews 10:17 is only for the fulfillment of Israel people, quoting Jeremiah 31. However Hebrews 10 which quotes Jeremiah 31 talks about Christ's Sacrifice which is available to all, not just the israelites. Interestingly the Holy Spirit does not mention the Israelites here. Reason being it is made available to all people who are willing to believe in Christ.

So if you have accepted Christ, learn to rest easy and breath easy.

Hebrews 10 talks about the perfect sacrifice of Christ that does 2 things.

1. Removed our sins forever.
2. Made us Holy forever.

If forever is true then God does not remember our sins anymore and is not angry anymore is true. Because you cannot have the words (underlined) as true if indeed God still remember our sins.

Hebrews 10:10 (NIV) - And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all

Hebrews 10:14 (NIV) - For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy..

If our Salvation and righteousness is temporal and depends on our obedience then the word "forever" and "once for all" as above cannot be true.

I pray you will receive this revelation by the Holy Spirit.

God Bless.


This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Aug 3 2017, 10:31 AM
De_Luffy
post Aug 3 2017, 11:20 AM

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A song for all Malaysians
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Sophiera
post Aug 3 2017, 05:01 PM

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Hey folks I need some help building an objection about Optimistic Nihilism



I already asked Reddit last week about their thoughts

https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comme...be_should_have/

The talk about it being dishonest is interesting.

The reason I'm asking is for writing reasons. Got to collect as many angles as possible so I can write better for the debate between characters.

Can tolong? biggrin.gif
TSunknown warrior
post Aug 4 2017, 09:27 AM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Aug 3 2017, 05:01 PM)
Hey folks I need some help building an objection about Optimistic Nihilism



I already asked Reddit last week about their thoughts

https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comme...be_should_have/

The talk about it being dishonest is interesting.

The reason I'm asking is for writing reasons. Got to collect as many angles as possible so I can write better for the debate between characters.

Can tolong? biggrin.gif
*
The word phrase is a contradiction in itself. When the root itself is flawed, whatever further explanation is meaningless because the base does not make sense.

For example, nihilism means the rejection of all religious and moral principles, often in the belief that life is meaningless. When the definition of nihilism equates life = meaningless and yet tries to put in the word "Optimistic" is like trying to call a square a circle or trying to define hope = hopelessness.

For me I wouldn't bother to pursue trying to debunk something like that.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Aug 4 2017, 09:30 AM
Sophiera
post Aug 5 2017, 02:07 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 4 2017, 09:27 AM)
The word phrase is a contradiction in itself. When the root itself is flawed, whatever further explanation is meaningless because the base does not make sense.

For example, nihilism means the rejection of all religious and moral principles, often in the belief that life is meaningless. When the definition of nihilism equates life = meaningless and yet tries to put in the word "Optimistic" is like trying to call a square a circle or trying to define hope = hopelessness.

For me I wouldn't bother to pursue trying to debunk something like that.
*
I don't know how to answer it when the other party insists that meaningless=liberation though sad.gif

It's also for personal guarding. So I don't get shaken by the implications.
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post Aug 5 2017, 09:48 AM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Aug 5 2017, 02:07 AM)
I don't know how to answer it when the other party insists that meaningless=liberation though sad.gif

It's also for personal guarding. So I don't get shaken by the implications.
*
huh? how would u get shaken by it? examples?
Sophiera
post Aug 6 2017, 06:28 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 5 2017, 09:48 AM)
huh? how would u get shaken by it? examples?
*
I better PM you. Don't want my post to be misattributed elsewhere.
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post Aug 7 2017, 11:45 AM

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post Aug 7 2017, 11:56 AM

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City of David.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Aug 7 2017, 11:57 AM
TSunknown warrior
post Aug 8 2017, 09:16 AM

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QUOTE(mbqb11 @ Aug 8 2017, 08:45 AM)
jadi dia pon kata (while half-sobbing), if they came wif 13 men on 3-4 vehicles + bikes, & recorded the whole process of less than 1 min wif a vid, wouldn't CCTV easily pick them up (along the highways, roads, etc) when they left?

makes sense also la rait hmm.gif

a whole convoy can't just suddenly disappear without a trace mah. unless the intention was nvr to track down the kidnappers, but to protek thm lor  whistling.gif

so how can the mass media come out wif reports saying tat he's a victim of human-trafficking? can smell the BS rait?

also, the 'authorities' who r responsible for finding him in the 1st place, started a task force & opened a file on him to charge him for proselytizing  doh.gif

talk about conflict of interest wei

i mean come on lar, wanting to charge a man whom can't even defend himself? 

he's been missing for 6 mths now & they have yet to rcv any calls for ransom, etc.

in this country, pastor pon bolih hilang.....

pikir2kan lah
*
yeah, seems more like protek.
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post Aug 8 2017, 06:37 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 2 2017, 08:26 AM)
Romans 8:26 (NLT) - And the Holy Spirit helps us in our weakness. For example, we don't know what God wants us to pray for. But the Holy Spirit prays for us with groanings that cannot be expressed in words.

It's interesting the word Help in the Greek = sunantilambanomai which means: lend a hand along with, take interest in (a thing) along with (others), assist jointly to perform some task, cooperate with, take my share in, help, aid.

Word study defines it like this: to give assistance with full initiative

How is it the Holy Spirit helps us to pray with full initiative and with groans that's too deep for word? Remember the point here is that the H.S is the one taking the full initiative leading us in prayer with groans that cannot be expressed. And the expression is through our vocalising..that is what it means assist jointly or lend a hand along with.

Let's assume for a moment praying in tongues is not what is meant here...how does this happen for the believer? If anyone were to see the believer praying in such spirit would be shocked to think he's mental isn't it?

Think about it. Let me know your thoughts you Anti-Speaking in tongue denomination. What does this verse means?
*
Hi UW,

First of all, for verse verse 26

QUOTE
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. (KJV)


Every translation I went to besides NLT translates this as "make intercession/ intercedes for us". The Greek huperentunchano means to rescue somebody in great danger with no resource of his own.

And then to deal with the context of this portion of the text, first we have groanings of creation (v22), groanings of the christian (v23) and the Holy Spirit intercedes for us in this groaning that we ourselves are too fallen to understand. We are utterly helpless in our fallen nature because of sin, that we have no idea how and what to pray for.

I don't want to go too far with this, I went through commentaries by John MacArthur, RC Sproul, John Piper, Charles Spurgeon, and none of them has the opinion that the Spirit puts words in our mouths (aka tongues).


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post Aug 10 2017, 10:03 AM

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QUOTE(thomasthai @ Aug 8 2017, 06:37 PM)
Hi UW,

First of all, for verse verse 26
Every translation I went to besides NLT translates this as "make intercession/ intercedes for us". The Greek huperentunchano means to rescue somebody in great danger with no resource of his own.

And then to deal with the context of this portion of the text, first we have groanings of creation (v22), groanings of the christian (v23) and the Holy Spirit intercedes for us in this groaning that we ourselves are too fallen to understand. We are utterly helpless in our fallen nature because of sin, that we have no idea how and what to pray for.

I don't want to go too far with this, I went through commentaries by John MacArthur, RC Sproul, John Piper, Charles Spurgeon, and none of them has the opinion that the Spirit puts words in our mouths (aka tongues).
*
It's interesting you mention groaning of the Christian.

There are 2 parts to this. There are....Help us and intercede for us. Agree?

The word "help us" is "sunantilambanomai" which means "jointly help us".
The word "intercede" is "huperentugchanó" which means "to make petition for", of course the rescuing part ...the resource comes from God, hence "no resources of our own" comes into place.

The petitioning part.....does not discredit the praying in groans. And.....How can the Holy Spirit helps us if we don't jointly pray in the spirit. You do agree that Holy Spirit does not act if we do not pray. So praying is the core matter here. But how? Do we groan or it's just the Holy Spirit who is groaning. What is the point of letting the reader know..if it's just the Holy Spirit groaning in the spirit realm....for me there are no insignificant details in the Bible.

The question I think which is the contention.....

So what is the "through wordless groan"?

Isn't that participation on our part? If it isn't, why use the phrase "through" or "with" ...the verb "groans"? How can it be through us or with us as you can see in most of the word translation used.

Wouldn't it sound weird that you or the spirit prays through groaning?

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Aug 10 2017, 11:57 AM
TSunknown warrior
post Aug 11 2017, 08:29 AM

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post Aug 11 2017, 10:17 AM

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What must I do to be saved?

Acts 16:30-31 (NIV) -…Then he brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household.”

This incident happened where God miraculously delivered Paul & Silas from Prison through an earthquake that caused the foundation of the prison to shake open the cell doors and shackles. The Prison Jailer who saw this wanted to kill himself because he knew he would be killed anyway when questioned by his superior. Before He could kill himself, Paul stopped him and he kneel before paul and silas asking what must he do to be saved?

Interesting the Holy Spirit recorded "believe' as the condition. The word obedience to God is not recorded here. Has Paul forgotten to include it in as the condition of Salvation? Or was Paul being inconsistent to tell one person faith and another person obedience in a different place? If you say that the person will be told later of obedience condition, then I can argue, I don't see that as being recorded. Prove to me that the same person is told or...it's understood, he will read the Bible and understand obedience is also a key. Friend...the Bible has not even been compiled yet during paul's time. You would be creating a doctrine based on assumption.

No, Dear Friends...God's precondition for Salvation is consistent throughout the Bible. It has always been Faith and by his Grace. Do not allowed anyone to add their own assumption to throw you off balance.


God Bless.


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post Aug 11 2017, 11:15 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 10 2017, 10:03 AM)
It's interesting you mention groaning of the Christian.

There are 2 parts to this. There are....Help us and intercede for us. Agree?

The word "help us" is "sunantilambanomai" which means "jointly help us".
The word "intercede" is "huperentugchanó" which means "to make petition for", of course the rescuing part ...the resource comes from God, hence "no resources of our own" comes into place.

The petitioning part.....does not discredit the praying in groans. And.....How can the Holy Spirit helps us if we don't jointly pray in the spirit. You do agree that Holy Spirit does not act if we do not pray. So praying is the core matter here. But how? Do we groan or it's just the Holy Spirit who is groaning. What is the point of letting the reader know..if it's just the Holy Spirit groaning in the spirit realm....for me there are no insignificant details in the Bible.

The question I think which is the contention.....

So what is the "through wordless groan"?

Isn't that participation on our part? If it isn't, why use the phrase "through" or "with" ...the verb "groans"? How can it be through us or with us as you can see in most of the word translation used.

Wouldn't it sound weird that you or the spirit prays through groaning?
*
Groaning is the result of Sin, result of suffering and decay(v18), curse of God (v20), and creation waits for the Christians to be glorified (v19 & 21) with pains of childbirth.

It is a type of pain too deep for us to understand. Thats why HS intercedes for us.

If groaning means to speak in tongues, you create more questions.

1) What is whole creation groaning? Are we supposed to understand that the trees and flowers speak in tongues too?

2) you created another type of speaking in tongues that has a diffrent purpose than those in Acts and Corithn.



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QUOTE(thomasthai @ Aug 11 2017, 11:15 AM)
Groaning is the result of Sin, result of suffering and decay(v18), curse of God (v20), and creation waits for the Christians to be glorified (v19 & 21) with pains of childbirth.

It is a type of pain too deep for us to understand. Thats why HS intercedes for us.

If groaning means to speak in tongues, you create more questions.

1) What is whole creation groaning? Are we supposed to understand that the trees and flowers speak in tongues too?

2) you created another type of speaking in tongues that has a diffrent purpose than those in Acts and Corithn.
*
I don't see where in the Bible that says groaning is the result of sin.

you're not really attending to the question I've asked...With us..through us.

not really.

1 Corinthians 14:2 (NIV) - For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Aug 11 2017, 11:44 AM
thomasthai
post Aug 11 2017, 12:01 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 11 2017, 11:28 AM)
I don't see where in the Bible that says groaning is the result of sin.

you're not really attending to the question I've asked...With us..through us.

not really.

1 Corinthians 14:2 (NIV) - For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit.
*
We groan because we are suffering. We suffer because God cursed creation. God cursed because of sin. Thats the whole text.

What translation are you using? The with and through are not in nkjv or esv though.

That verse just means, God knows what's he's babbling about in a negative sense.

If you think speaking in tongues without any people understanding is encouraged, you have to answer Paul's rebuke later in the chapter where Paul said do not speak in tongues if nobody can translate and understand.

All the speaking in tongues Ive witnessed definitely is not translatable. Ive yet to see one.
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QUOTE(thomasthai @ Aug 11 2017, 12:01 PM)
We groan because we are suffering. We suffer because God cursed creation. God cursed because of sin. Thats the whole text.

What translation are you using? The with and through are not in nkjv or esv though.

That verse just means, God knows what's he's babbling about in a negative sense.

If you think speaking in tongues without any people understanding is encouraged, you have to answer Paul's rebuke later in the chapter where Paul said do not speak in tongues if nobody can translate and understand.

All the speaking in tongues Ive witnessed definitely is not translatable. Ive yet to see one.
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How can you be suffering because of sin? Unless you're telling me Christ did not liberate you from sin.

This suffering is a different context. It's not about sin. This groaning is our waiting for the blessed hope of our new body. Hence the phrase waiting for liberation from bondage and decay (v21) because our current body is corruptible physical body with the nature of the flesh. Why is there an agitation on our part? It's because we have been (past tense) made a new creation. We are a new clean spirit (no sin) made righteous permanently but living in the old body. The Flesh in our body is not our identity anymore. Hence the suffering.

No, that forbidding is speaking in tongues before mass congregation if there is no interpreter, 1 Corinthians 14:2 refers speaking in tongue before God meaning it's a personal one to one.

Apostle Paul also said he speaks in tongues more than all of you in his personal time with God, which goes to say he does indeed speak a lot of tongues So you're telling me paul speaks in other human language to God? How can that be utterless mystery? It's utterable language.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Aug 14 2017, 11:22 AM
Jedi
post Aug 12 2017, 04:45 PM

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Good to see Bro Unknown warrior is still alive and kicking biggrin.gif

Spread the word!
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post Aug 14 2017, 08:52 AM

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QUOTE(Jedi @ Aug 12 2017, 04:45 PM)
Good to see Bro Unknown warrior is still alive and kicking biggrin.gif

Spread the word!
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It's been such a long time seeing you, Bro.
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God allow sickness to teach us something?

Deuteronomy 28:22 (NIV) - The LORD will strike you with wasting disease, with fever and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, with blight and mildew, which will plague you until you perish.

I want to destroy this erronous idea purported by some people saying it is God's will to allow terminal illness like Cancer to happen on some people to teach them something.
If you study the Bible, there's no such doctrine, it is an assumption made up by Man. My Bible tells me otherwise. In Deuteronomy 28:22, tells me sickness, diseases are meant to destroy (to perish) not teach something.

But why is it, there are many genuine Christians who cannot receive healing? They are people who are sincere in their Faith, they live righteously and conduct their daily life and even business with honesty and integrity. Do you want to know what is God's diagnosis as to why?

The answer is found in

Galatians 5:4 (KJV) - Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

When you put in your conduct (obedience, performance) before God, Christ becomes of no effect! It's a terrible situation to be in when Jesus Christ becomes of no effect to our Life! When you are terrible predicament, you need Christ to be of effect! Notice that the phrase "ye have fallen from grace" The word "fallen from" means that Grace is the Higher position while Law is the lower position.

If we do not learn to uphold Grace above all else, and try to incorporate obedience to the Laws of God as the same equal (platform) for justification before God, we nullify Christ Jesus. This is one of the reason why some Christians cannot receive answers to their prayers from God.

Dear Friends, I pray you will understand this revelation.

God Bless.

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post Aug 14 2017, 01:54 PM

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techjunkie
post Aug 14 2017, 05:44 PM

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I hv a question here.

I hv been a Christian and been attending church regularly for a long time with my mom.....now with my wife n kids.

I have picked up running lately and the events are mostly held on Sundays. As a result of that, I would skip church service (almost twice a month).

Am I considered not 'not faithful'?
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post Aug 14 2017, 08:47 PM

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QUOTE(techjunkie @ Aug 14 2017, 05:44 PM)
I hv a question here.

I hv been a Christian and been attending church regularly for a long time with my mom.....now with my wife n kids.

I have picked up running lately and the events are mostly held on Sundays. As a result of that, I would skip church service (almost twice a month).

Am I considered not 'not faithful'?
*
I think no one should judge you whether you're faithful or not, this is a matter of conviction between you and God.

For me personally, I wouldn't arrange or take up any activity on a day meant for Christians to gather and worship God. I rather set it aside as Holy unto God and honor Him by coming together with other fellow believers.

For me, Man can exercise and eat healthy all he wants but good health and long life only comes from God and I believe only God can give us that.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Aug 15 2017, 08:46 AM
NicoRobinz
post Aug 15 2017, 07:57 AM

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May I know what is Psalm in the Bible?

It doesn't seem to be story telling like other chapters but some quotes from I do not who.
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post Aug 15 2017, 08:58 AM

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QUOTE(NicoRobinz @ Aug 15 2017, 07:57 AM)
May I know what is Psalm in the Bible?

It doesn't seem to be story telling like other chapters but some quotes from I do not who.
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Psalms in the Hebrew means praises or hymns, in the Greek it is called Psalms.

Many of it was written by King David. Among the other authors are Asaph, the sons of Korah, Herman, Ethan, Moses and Solomon.

It is not written letters like the New Testament...they are songs of praise and some song of lamentation, complains of disappointment and anguish. I find that is good because many of us can relate to God in that way.

You can basically sing Psalms to God. It's quite powerful.


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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 15 2017, 08:58 AM)
Psalms in the Hebrew means praises or hymns, in the Greek it is called Psalms.

Many of it was written by King David. Among the other authors are Asaph, the sons of Korah, Herman, Ethan, Moses and Solomon.

It is not written letters like the New Testament...they are songs of praise and some song of lamentation, complains of disappointment and anguish. I find that is good because many of us can relate to God in that way.

You can basically sing Psalms to God. It's quite powerful.
*
Thank you for your explanation.

I thought it was something like advice because at Psalm 1, it seems like advising people not to do evil deeds.
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post Aug 15 2017, 09:45 AM

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And how do you pronounce Psalm?

Is it similar to the way we pronounce 'some'?
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QUOTE(NicoRobinz @ Aug 15 2017, 09:44 AM)
Thank you for your explanation.

I thought it was something like advice because at Psalm 1, it seems like advising people not to do evil deeds.
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QUOTE(NicoRobinz @ Aug 15 2017, 09:45 AM)
And how do you pronounce Psalm?

Is it similar to the way we pronounce 'some'?
*
Well not only Psalm but many books of the Bible are the principle of God's kingdom which if we take heed, is for our wellbeing.

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/pronunciation/english/psalm


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post Aug 15 2017, 10:01 AM

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Thanks for the reply.

I was also thinking along the line of wht you hv said...guess I just have to manage my time more effectively.


QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 14 2017, 08:47 PM)
I think no one should judge you whether you're faithful or not, this is a matter of conviction between you and God.

For me personally, I wouldn't arrange or take up any activity on a day meant for Christians to gather and worship God. I rather set it aside as Holy unto God and honor Him by coming together with other fellow believers.

For me, Man can exercise and eat healthy all he wants but good health and long life only comes from God and I believe only God can give us that.
*
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post Aug 15 2017, 10:05 AM

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QUOTE(techjunkie @ Aug 15 2017, 10:01 AM)
Thanks for the reply.

I was also thinking along the line of wht you hv said...guess I just have to manage my time more effectively.
*
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The P in Psalms is silent, so just say "salms" nod.gif
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post Aug 15 2017, 01:40 PM

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Happy to see fellowship very much alive. biggrin.gif
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post Aug 15 2017, 02:28 PM

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Just posting to express my gratitude to everyone who cares to answer my questions smile.gif

Thanks yea biggrin.gif
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post Aug 15 2017, 02:33 PM

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Hey no prob.
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post Aug 15 2017, 10:00 PM

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QUOTE(techjunkie @ Aug 15 2017, 10:01 AM)
Thanks for the reply.

I was also thinking along the line of wht you hv said...guess I just have to manage my time more effectively.
*
I always think of it this way
If u can date thr girl u like or need to see ur wife everyday

What more of God who loves us and only requires one to 2 hours of our lives per week.

He deserves our full attention during Church. No phones no talk whatsoever.
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post Aug 16 2017, 08:07 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 11 2017, 02:33 PM)
How can you be suffering because of sin? Unless you're telling me Christ did not liberate you from sin.

This suffering is a different context. It's not about sin. This groaning is our waiting for the blessed hope of our new body. Hence the phrase waiting for liberation from bondage and decay (v21) because our current body is corruptible physical body with the nature of the flesh. Why is there an agitation on our part? It's because we have been (past tense) made a new creation. We are a new clean spirit (no sin) made righteous permanently but living in the old body. The Flesh in our body is not our identity anymore. Hence the suffering.

No, that forbidding is speaking in tongues before mass congregation if there is no interpreter, 1 Corinthians 14:2 refers speaking in tongue before God meaning it's a personal one to one.

Apostle Paul also said he speaks in tongues more than all of you in his personal time with God, which goes to say he does indeed speak a lot of tongues So you're telling me paul speaks in other human language to God? How can that be utterless mystery? It's utterable language.
*
The bondage and decay came to human when Adam and Eve sinned, when paradise was lost, when death came. Now we are waiting for the perfect to come, the perfection that Christ promised, when there will be no tears, pain and suffering (Rev 21), hence the groanings. I don't know if you understand what I'm saying or not rclxub.gif

Whole chapter 14 is a rebuke to the Corithians for selfishly coveting the the gift of speaking in tongues.

Paul is telling them, desire prophecy over tongues (v1), because if you speak in a tongue, nobody understands you (v2), but if you prophecy, you edify other people (v3). If you speak in a tongue, you puff yourself up, but if you prophecy, you edify the church (v4), I wish you all spoke in tongues, but prophesying is superior, unless tongues is interpreted (v5).

The whole context here is about the gift of tongues for the edification of the church.

To say that in v2 is talking about another type of tongue praying that you can use to speak to God just defeats the purpose of the gifts, which is for the benefit of others, out of context, and just redundant when we can speak perfectly well in "normal" human language with God.

We are going in circles with this, so this will be my last post about tongues.

Have a good day. smile.gif

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post Aug 16 2017, 08:49 AM

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QUOTE(thomasthai @ Aug 16 2017, 08:07 AM)
The bondage and decay came to human when Adam and Eve sinned, when paradise was lost, when death came. Now we are waiting for the perfect to come, the perfection that Christ promised, when there will be no tears, pain and suffering (Rev 21), hence the groanings. I don't know if you understand what I'm saying or not  rclxub.gif

Whole chapter 14 is a rebuke to the Corithians for selfishly coveting the the gift of speaking in tongues.

Paul is telling them, desire prophecy over tongues (v1), because if you speak in a tongue, nobody understands you (v2), but if you prophecy, you edify other people (v3). If you speak in a tongue, you puff yourself up, but if you prophecy, you edify the church (v4), I wish you all spoke in tongues, but prophesying is superior, unless tongues is interpreted (v5).

The whole context here is about the gift of tongues for the edification of the church.

To say that in v2 is talking about another type of tongue praying that you can use to speak to God just defeats the purpose of the gifts, which is for the benefit of others, out of context, and just redundant when we can speak perfectly well in "normal" human language with God.

We are going in circles with this, so this will be my last post about tongues.

Have a good day.  smile.gif
*
To be liberated from bodange and decay means that the awaiting is for the blessed hope, more accurately our new Body, it's more in the context of this world passing away it's not we suffering due to sin. If you say that groaning is because we are suffering due to sin, you're also saying Christ's blood did not wash away your sins, hence your stigma of sin is stuck with you. Think about.

The discouraging of speaking in tongues if there is no interpreter .....The key verse is in 23...(the whole church). The speaking in tongues that I've mentioned is a personal one to one (verse 2) because the speaking is to God and the key phrase used...(not to people but to God), do you see that?..Not to people means it's not for the Mass congregation. Further more, Paul also mention this;
The speaking in tongues for the edification of ourselves. (verse 4).Paul put a difference..edification of ourselves vs the Church. What is the point of equating edification of ourself = mass congregation? It would be meaningless to try and differentiate that with speaking in tongues and prophecy...else there can be no differentiation.

One more thing. Do you realize the way Paul expressed about tongues in 1 Corinthians 14:9, the way he equates speaking in tongues = unintelligible words and he used the phrase;
how will anyone know what you are saying?..meaning to say speaking in tongues, nobody can understand the babbling or expression ...only God knows, so you can't say the way we speak in tongues = Other language of other nation as in books of Acts. Those are intelligible words.

No, it's not about we can speak perfectly in normal human language. The problem is that sometime we can out of God's will type of prayer in our normal language. Praying in the spirit and praying in tongues is to allow the Holy Spirit helps us pray to the perfect will of God. The Holy Spirit knows how to pray better but through us.

It's up to you. The above explanation is quite simple to understand but you don't want to.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Aug 16 2017, 08:58 AM
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post Aug 16 2017, 09:18 AM

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Healing is for now, not in Heaven

Mark 16: 17 - 18 (NIV) - And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.

I want to remove and destroy the idea of cessation doctrine on healing.

Look at the keyword here; it's clearly recorded, those who believe in Jesus name...didn't say only the apostles. By the truth of this scripture verse, Healing is for Today. There are people who propagate Healing will only happen when we go to Heaven.

You don't need healing in Heaven. What need is there in Heaven when it's Heaven?

No dear Friends, Healing is need for now, Here on Earth because we do indeed need it for the well being of our bodies as we are living in a fallen world.
To propagate the idea, Healing is no more, cessation has happened is to say Jesus is not for healing and He did not heal anyone and Mark 16:17-18 is a lie.

We all agree Jesus Christ is the same Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow. If He heals during Bible time, He also heals Today and Now. That would be consistent of God and to proclaim Hebrews 13:8 (NIV) - Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

I pray you will receive this revelation.

God Bless.


This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Aug 16 2017, 09:18 AM
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post Aug 16 2017, 09:29 AM

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Sep 5 2017, 10:49 AM
This post has been deleted by unknown warrior because: Trying to provoke

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post Aug 16 2017, 09:37 AM

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post Aug 16 2017, 09:47 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 16 2017, 08:49 AM)
To be liberated from bodange and decay means that the awaiting is for the blessed hope, more accurately our new Body, it's more in the context of this world passing away it's not we suffering due to sin. If you say that groaning is because we are suffering due to sin, you're also saying Christ's blood did not wash away your sins, hence your stigma of sin is stuck with you. Think about.

The discouraging of speaking in tongues if there is no interpreter .....The key verse is in 23...(the whole church). The speaking in tongues that I've mentioned is a personal one to one (verse 2) because the speaking is to God and the key phrase used...(not to people but to God), do you see that?..Not to people means it's not for the Mass congregation. Further more, Paul also mention this;
The speaking in tongues for the edification of ourselves. (verse 4).Paul put a difference..edification of ourselves vs the Church. What is the point of equating edification of ourself = mass congregation? It would be meaningless to try and differentiate that with speaking in tongues and prophecy...else there can be no differentiation.

One more thing. Do you realize the way Paul expressed about tongues in 1 Corinthians 14:9, the way he equates speaking in tongues =  unintelligible words and he used the phrase;
how will anyone know what you are saying?..meaning to say speaking in tongues, nobody can understand the babbling or expression ...only God knows, so you can't say the way we speak in tongues = Other language of other nation as in books of Acts. Those are intelligible words.

No, it's not about we can speak perfectly in normal human language. The problem is that sometime we can out of God's will type of prayer in our normal language. Praying in the spirit and praying in tongues is to allow the Holy Spirit helps us pray to the perfect will of God. The Holy Spirit knows how to pray better but through us.

It's up to you. The above explanation is quite simple to understand but you don't want to.
*
You know what? The NIV that you are using is so different from the NKJV.

I guess that explains the diffrence in understanding.

Try reading NKJV or other literal translations.
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post Aug 16 2017, 10:33 AM

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QUOTE(thomasthai @ Aug 16 2017, 09:47 AM)
You know what? The NIV that you are using is so different from the NKJV.

I guess that explains the diffrence in understanding.

Try reading NKJV or other literal translations.
*
I have all the translations. What verse were you referring to specifically?
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QUOTE(josephoyh @ Aug 16 2017, 09:37 AM)
Good morning, am new here  innocent.gif
*
Hi there.
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post Aug 16 2017, 10:34 AM

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QUOTE(desmond2020 @ Aug 16 2017, 09:29 AM)
Huhuhu
still.pressing on spreading prosperity gospel
*
Well in the Gospel there is Healing and There is prosperity. smile.gif

Don't respond with emotions, discuss on the points.

You want to play this provocation games with me, if I respond likewise, you won't like it, isn't it?

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Aug 16 2017, 10:46 AM
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post Aug 16 2017, 10:51 AM

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Ignoring

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TSunknown warrior
post Aug 16 2017, 11:02 AM

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Has christianity comes to the point where the mere mention of Healing = Prosperity gospel?

Have we also come to the point where the mere mention of the importance of Faith causes offence when it is vital and crucial to Christian living.

Sometime I wonder the people who criticize against these, ever bother to think they're helping to stifle the advancement of the kingdom of God.

Faith and Healing is part and parcel to the christian Faith, it is NOT heresy.

IT is heresy to ridicule faith and to ridicule the importance of Faith and the importance of healing.


When I ask you, desmond to explain your point, you just cannot and simply link articles of other people which i don't know if you fully comprehend or you just read a few lines and think it's right. Have you bother to read the Bible in it's entire wide to say it's right?

If you do, I would like to hear your side of the explanation. I still remember the proverbs case where you still disregard.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Aug 16 2017, 11:20 AM
Jedi
post Aug 16 2017, 07:34 PM

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I am not very fond of the charismatic movement, but I am not against it either.

I have heard about the real tongue gift and read stories about them, of course, being Catholic I searched the catholic version of tongues.

There are a few examples of saints who spoke in other nation's languages without them knowing, while preaching to them.
There were instances of priests spoke in Bahasa but never had any knowledge of Bahasa, while praying for malaysians in UK and Ireland.

I believed those are real.

However there is also the version where the lead (pastor etc) started shimbala kala shumbi malakala shumbilakala

and everyone besides just started mumbo jumbo the same way.
Any new friends who just joined then started to mumbo jumbo

Was it due to peer pressure?
To feel belonged in the group?
or is it really speaking in tongues?

I never ask. I do not think I am in the position to blasphemy against Holy Spirit.
I am also happy my friends feel closer to God with it than without it.

The gifts are meant for increasing one's faith...be it speak in tongues, prophesy, etc.

I however disagree with some churches pastor who repeatedly ask the congregation to speak in tongues, desire tongues etc rather than increase his or her faith.


would you like me to come to your house for a visit and say "Where is my gift, J?"
wouldnt you respond "IM YOUR GIFT!"

This post has been edited by Jedi: Aug 16 2017, 07:36 PM
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post Aug 17 2017, 08:58 AM

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QUOTE(Jedi @ Aug 16 2017, 07:34 PM)
I am not very fond of the charismatic movement, but I am not against it either.

I have heard about the real tongue gift and read stories about them, of course, being Catholic I searched the catholic version of tongues.

There are a few examples of saints who spoke in other nation's languages without them knowing, while preaching to them.
There were instances of priests spoke in Bahasa but never had any knowledge of Bahasa, while praying for malaysians in UK and Ireland.

I believed those are real.

However there is also the version where the lead (pastor etc) started shimbala kala shumbi malakala shumbilakala

and everyone besides just started mumbo jumbo the same way.
Any new friends who just joined then started to mumbo jumbo

Was it due to peer pressure?
To feel belonged in the group?
or is it really speaking in tongues?

I never ask. I do not think I am in the position to blasphemy against Holy Spirit.
I am also happy my friends feel closer to God with it than without it.

The gifts are meant for increasing one's faith...be it speak in tongues, prophesy, etc.

I however disagree with some churches pastor who repeatedly ask the congregation to speak in tongues, desire tongues etc rather than increase his or her faith.
would you like me to come to your house for a visit and say "Where is my gift, J?"
wouldnt you respond "IM YOUR GIFT!"
*
You and I have the same thought on this because it's the same position that I take.

I don't try to put God, specifically the Holy Spirit into my own worldview of what he can do, be like or sound like. It saddens me that some people actually do that. They try to fit God (whatever it is) into what they think is right.

It may sound weird to some of us but if it's not something evil, We are in no position to call speaking in tongues as evil.

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post Aug 17 2017, 09:19 AM

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Galatians 5:4 (KJV) - Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

What does it mean..whosoever of you are justified by the law? It means you trust in your own strength, your obedience to the Law, your own performance.

Do you realize the people in Jesus days who received his healing were all sinners..and the irony is they could receive! Meaning to say these people realize they have nothing in themselves to justify before God and they relent to just ..want to receive from God without any conditions, without any self justification, and THEY DID!.

Do you realize who in Jesus days could NOT receive Healing? Answer = The Pharisees..Hence Galatians 5:4.


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2 Chronicles 26:5 (KJV) - And he sought God in the days of Zechariah, who had understanding in the visions of God: and as long as he sought the LORD, God made him to prosper.

King Uzziah Trusted God at a very young age, 16 Years old and God prospered Him. Prosperity is never something a heresy.

It is only when King Uzziah trust in himself out of pride, he suffered.

I find that people who come against the mere mention of God's prosperity are spiritually immature because there is a spirit of religiosity and some bit of legalism that binds them from being free to understand the Majestic Grace of God.
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NicoRobinz
post Aug 18 2017, 08:00 AM

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QUOTE(Jedi @ Aug 16 2017, 07:34 PM)
I am not very fond of the charismatic movement, but I am not against it either.

I have heard about the real tongue gift and read stories about them, of course, being Catholic I searched the catholic version of tongues.

There are a few examples of saints who spoke in other nation's languages without them knowing, while preaching to them.
There were instances of priests spoke in Bahasa but never had any knowledge of Bahasa, while praying for malaysians in UK and Ireland.

I believed those are real.

However there is also the version where the lead (pastor etc) started shimbala kala shumbi malakala shumbilakala

and everyone besides just started mumbo jumbo the same way.
Any new friends who just joined then started to mumbo jumbo

Was it due to peer pressure?
To feel belonged in the group?
or is it really speaking in tongues?

I never ask. I do not think I am in the position to blasphemy against Holy Spirit.
I am also happy my friends feel closer to God with it than without it.

The gifts are meant for increasing one's faith...be it speak in tongues, prophesy, etc.

I however disagree with some churches pastor who repeatedly ask the congregation to speak in tongues, desire tongues etc rather than increase his or her faith.
would you like me to come to your house for a visit and say "Where is my gift, J?"
wouldnt you respond "IM YOUR GIFT!"
*
The church members from the church that I attend to on every Saturday do the same.

They pray in foreign language which is alien to me. I did ask about that and they said it's angel language or the language that was used by Jesus during the ancient time.

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Debunking Hebrews 11:39

Good Day fellow believers,

Today I would like to highlight a verse that's used to purported even though you have Faith, doesn't necessary means you will receive. And they will quote

Hebrews 11:39-40 (NIV) - These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised,

But hardly understand the next verse.

Hebrews 11:40 (NIV) - since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

We need to understand what is the context of the word promise here. God Promised to Abraham a promised land and that out of him there will be a nation...particularly israel. Israel became at the point of Jacob's name change where He wrestle with God, so there is the one promise left that none of them inherited..the promise Land. That was true in the Old Testament

Verse 40 is a divine mystery as to why Faith is better and complete together with us. Together with us here talks about all of us Christians. For the Israel, their promise is the promised land but for Christians, what God promised us as inheritance are 2 things. 1. is our Salvation. 2. Our brand new body. We already have Salvation, so the one we are still waiting for; is our brand new body.

In fact I can also say it like this. As Christians our promise land = Jesus Christ who is also Our Salvation. When we have Jesus, We have everything. Why? Jesus reconcile us back to Father God. When you have access to God, you have access to his power and resources. Hence also what I mentioned previously on the righteousness of Faith vs Blessing n Curses in subscribing to the Law is inter-related to this.

Father God and our Lord Jesus many time exhort us to believe that He will answer us. Many times in the Bible, you can search it out. Never for once our God tells us, maybe you might receive, maybe you won't. The beginning phrase of Hebrews 1 says it like this:

Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

This is a statement of assurity, not maybe yes maybe no.

Jesus says BELIEVE and you WILL RECEIVE. This are the eternal unbroken word of God, not mine as recorded in Mark 11:24.

So be very clear that verse 39 of Hebrews 11 talks about the inherited land promise to Israel...which today they HAVE receive. So don't allow anyone to hoodwink you just because they can quote bible verse to put doubt or to scare you off

God Bless.


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post Aug 18 2017, 09:10 AM

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QUOTE(NicoRobinz @ Aug 18 2017, 08:00 AM)
The church members from the church that I attend to on every Saturday do the same.

They pray in foreign language which is alien to me. I did ask about that and they said it's angel language or the language that was used by Jesus during the ancient time.
*
It's called speaking in tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:2 (NIV) - For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit.

The key there is: No one understands them. Meaning in context...Only God can understand.

So it's not speaking in other national languages as in book of Acts.
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Here is another verse to show God is the one working, not us.

Philippians 2:13 (NIV) - for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

Our Position is to receive that. This is the New Covenant Grace , of "I will" of God.

You must have the desire to receive, meaning to say, you want access to God resources.

Many time I needed this to overcome the flaws of bad character.

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Listen to the prayer (after the song) of this Gangster Rapper...Even He can understand what is Grace, What is Salvation.

I'm not into religion but into relationship with Christ as this man is.


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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Aug 19 2017, 04:59 PM)
This is stupid. The devil tempted Jesus the same thing by asking him to jump off the roof. The answer? Do not test the LORD.

Intentionally drinking poison is not the same as people who're sick from no fault of their own. Or are you implying that all sickness is self inflicted? That's a whole other level of arrogance there.
*
HilaryClinton Is sylar Dupe. lol.

Don't worry about him.
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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Aug 19 2017, 04:59 PM)
This is stupid. The devil tempted Jesus the same thing by asking him to jump off the roof. The answer? Do not test the LORD.

Intentionally drinking poison is not the same as people who're sick from no fault of their own. Or are you implying that all sickness is self inflicted? That's a whole other level of arrogance there.
*
I believe that verse applies when a person is forced to drink poison by some circumstance or by another person and not because he purposely want to test this whether this verse is true or not.

What Sylar suggested is as you know stupid, so just ignore him.
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We are discovering more evidence for a young earth everyday.

I want to encourage Christians that the accounts of Genesis are accurate, from the pov of geology, genetics, astronomy etc, even the events the 6 day creation and a global flood caused many things that we see today.

Please have a look at the creation ministries, plenty of peer reviewed papers, articles and information.

A good place to start:

http://creation.com/age-of-the-earth

There's too much that evolutionists cannot explain, and they are blind to the evidences right in front of their eyes.

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What is the Gospel?

Galatians (KJV) 1:6-7 -I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

To start off, every word in Scripture is God breathed but not every word in scripture is the gospel.

The word Marvel here is not the Avengers Marvel but Paul was shocked or surprised that there is another gospel preached in error. The Gospel means Good News. What is Good News? Preaching of doom and gloom is good news? Preaching putting demands on the people towards God is good news? They are far from good news and is never the gospel. Have you noticed people in the United States, holding placards with words written like Repent! Hell is Real, Most Christians going to Hell, Turn to Jesus or Burn in Hell, etc?

If you think about it, anybody can quote scripture, but are they telling the Gospel? Those placard should be showing John 3:16: For God so loved the World, that whoever believes in Him Shall never Perish! That is the real Gospel or Good News..Instead of message of doom n gloom.

Jesus Christ came to unveil a gospel that some people may find quite foreign to accept, as much as how the pharisees didn't accept because it sounded foreign to them. The pharisees, leaders of Israel, teachers of the Law was used to the people coming to them, so that they can be the middle person to connect the people to God (their position, the benefit of temple money, etc). They have corrupted their position; instead of helping people, they made (what was already impossible), difficult for the people to come to God.

They didn't like it when Christ came to make God easily accessible. And sadly some people today, wanted to put God on the throne not so easy to approach and put people a bit of distance..not too close else they'll scream blasphemy....Religion and spirit of legality.

Today, I'm here to unveil to you the Gospel as how Christ intended to be. I believe some Church throughout the years have stifled the truth, by mixing the demands of the Law on the believers, corrupting the pure Gospel.

Galatians 1:6-7 tells us very very plainly and clearly. GRACE OF CHRIST = The Gospel. There is no other Gospel other than this, The verse strongly tells us this. So serious is this that Paul announce a double Curse (anathema) to anyone who preaches a different Gospel or a different Jesus. (Galatians 1 verse 8 & 9). Meaning to say there will be no resources (no backing from God) No power in preaching a different gospel, lives will not be transformed. If you notice people are in the place of stagnant, no character change, no miracles from God in their life, bitter, always angry, usually gloom, hardly joyful, you know what sort of gospel they're hearing.

So it stands to reason to understand what is the Grace of Christ? What is Grace? Never allow anyone to define you grace, let the Bible define it.

With Regards to Salvation, Ephesians 2:8 & Romans 3:24 explain it the strongest

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV) - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast.
Romans 3:23-24 (NIV) - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

The definition of Grace is explained clearly here;
Romans 4:4-5 (NIV) - Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.


In summary, what it basically means is this.

If you can work for Salvation then God is obliged to credit that due to you as obligation. Grace on the other hand is a gift of God, unearned or unmerited.

The Gospel is about the Gift of God as unearned or unmerited and it is based on the work of Christ on the cross. Our Faith (Trust) in God who justify the ungodly (You and I) make us Righteous in Christ.

So when there are Christians teaching, putting demands on the Believer, Obedience, the focus is on what you do right or wrong is key to Salvation, that is another Gospel. They're preaching God is obligated to you type of Gospel.

Jesus Christ came to unveil a Gospel that is FREE from all merits. A gift given to you, your position is to receive and allow Grace to change your Life. The Bible clearly states..It is the Goodness of God that lead us to repentance, not the Law or any doctrine or saying of Man. This means God will continually be good to you, despite of your imperfection, you can continue to receive Good that you don't deserve. That will change you, that is the Good News!



God Bless.





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What is the Gospel? Part 2

Matthew 25:41 (NIV) - Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

In the previous devotion, we can understand Grace is the Gospel. What was the point of the whole explanation? Salvation can never be earned. It gives greater assurance that anyone can be saved by this, more than the Laws of God can. The 10 commandments was never implemented to save you, it was implemented to bring you to the end of yourself where you come to the place of self reflection if you need a saviour.

Grace gives equal opportunity to everyone because everyone can receive it apart from their own works. No amount of good charity that you do or the amount of obedience you rely on, can bring you into Heaven. God wants to give you Salvation FREE from all merit. Not even merited by your own obedience to God's commandment. No Performance, No works. God would not allow this to be obligated as a wage to a worker.

Why is this important? Because for too long Churches in Malaysia have in a way MIXED UP Law and Grace as condition to Heaven. They may preach to you Salvation is by Grace and they will also MIX IN, you need to be obedient as the other condition, citing the matter of sin and what not. I perfectly understand that. But many Christian do not understand Grace. Bible has define it FREE from works but Christians do not want it to be free from work, so they'll use another terminology and call obedient as "respond to Faith" (citing Faith without works is dead without understand that context) when in actual FACT it is a performance (Man's Effort) and the way it's commonly preach..hinting God is obligate to you now because you obeyed. If you read the Bible, this is not true under the New Covenant.
Some Christians are afraid on banking on Grace alone because they believe without obedience to the Law, people will fall away from God. People are falling away from God because the true Gospel (Grace) is not preached and the Love of God was never unveiled magnificently. Many are still preaching doom and gloom, preaching heavily on sin which caused sincere people to run away because they felt they can never please God. God is not in the business of forcing people, He wants people to do this willingly. I will not further elaborate this as Part 1 of this series has explain this quite sufficiently.

Well as mention previously, the word Gospel means Good News. For Good News to mean Good News, What God has to offer has to be Good News. And Grace is truly Good News when we know, we can just receive Salvation freely just like that. What about repentance then? You mean you can do all kind of sin and evil and still go to Hell? What about the hard verse like it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of the needle than a rich man to enter Heaven. Many times many verses are quoted out of context with regards to this. I will handle this, one at a time. One Devotion is never sufficient to explain everything. I will explain the hard verses in Part 3 of this series.

Many times when Jesus Christ proclaim the Gospel, He also warn of Hell. First we need to understand clearly, God did not create predominantly Hell for you. It was originally created for the Devil and his fallen angels as stated in the text of today's devotion. So do not have this idea, God is unkind or evil to create hell to send people in. Many times in the Bible, it is recorded God is NOT Willing for anyone to perish but to have life and it is eternal by definition. The Bible records God is more pleased that you turn to him and live! I can proof to you this is true. Many opponents of Christianity attack our doctrine by propagating the reverse. If you read 2 Peter 3:9, it basically debunks the attacks as not true.

Is Hell severe? Well Yes. Mark 9:48 tells us; where 'their worm never dies, and the fire is never quenched.' It is a place of suffering, torment and It is severe because the Devil who caused so much evil and pain was meant to be punished severely. It was never meant for you.

Then you will ask me, then how come God still send people to Hell? Well the answer is because:

You slap away the Grace given to you in Jesus Christ. There is no other way aside from this given to you free of charge. What more do you want, when God is kind enough to make this so easy? You just need to receive this Grace willingly. If you reject this Grace, there is no more other sacrifice. Christ is the one acceptable sacrifice before God because He is without sin. You do this on your own decision and choice. God will not be at fault here.

Can't God just give you Salvation just like that? Understand that if God were to give you Salvation just like that, you would be entering into a place foreign to you You will not understand why people live the way they do. You will be at odds because people in there no longer live as how people live in this world. The corruption of Man, matters like jealousy, lying, cheating, back stabbing, being selfish, idolatry of people and things, masturbating, enjoying pornography, sleeping around, having sex with multiple people, eating to survive, self preservation, politics, stepping on others, orgies, gluttony, violence, arrogance, bigotry, proud, racism, racial pride, polygamy, persecuting, etc will cease to exist. These are the very things that corrupted this world and how you wished the world would explode and end because of the many evil. We call this Sin. If you enter in Heaven with the baggage that you have, you risk ruining the New Heaven and Earth and causing it to fall once again and become the irony of your complain against this world.

It stands to reason, to enter Heaven, you need to know the one who created it. He is the owner, the King and Ruler of the place. Where God rule, evil cease to exist because God is the one governing. Understand that you have no power to change yourself. Whether you like it or not, you are under bondage to the power of sin. it's impossible. Only God has that kind of power to change your heart to live right. Jesus state a very profound truth, Apart from Him, you can do absolutely nothing.(John 15:5) Sad to say some Christian believe they can do something, quoting, I'll do my best, God will do the rest. No John 15:5 says, You in yourself, can do nothing. Nothing means nothing, don't add to God's word. Hence repentance is also of God's Grace. (I've shared this before, you can do a search in this thread in how to repent)

Hence the reason why for John 3:16: For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

This life is the Heaven life which only God can give and only God can enable you to live in. It start by believing in the Son of God who died in your place to give you life. He died punished bearing your sins where it should have been you. It was God's idea to send his son to die for you. So do not think God is evil or God is bad or this or that, whatever your mind can conjure up. God is a good God who did this for you, because He loves you.


God Bless.








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post Aug 24 2017, 11:16 AM

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QUOTE(bismikaallahuma @ Aug 24 2017, 11:04 AM)
1) Are you a Christian? Yes or no?

2) Do you truly believe? Yes or no?

3) Have you been baptized? Yes or no?

4) Mark 16:16-18 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; (a) In my name shall they cast out devils; (b) they shall speak with new tongues; ©They shall take up serpents; and (d) if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; (e) they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

5) Once again. Have you (a) been baptized and (b) do you believe?

a) If NOT then you WILL NOT BE SAVED BUT DAMNED.

b) If a Christian has been baptized and believes then they should exhibit the "signs" mentioned above, such as being able to drink any deadly poison (such as battery acid, etc.) and not be harmed. How about the other signs? Can all believing and baptized Christians lay their hand on any randomly selected terminally ill cancer patient or paraplegic and have him rise completely cured? Does this not require that the Christian world be completely free of all illness, doctors, and hospitals? According to this verse, should not all believing, baptized, Christians be able to do this if they truly believe are to be saved? If a Christian does not exhibit these signs, then does this not prove that they do not believe, and thus will not be saved but damned?

6) Go back to (1).
*
Understand what is Baptism.

Baptism means to be immersed. metaphorically also, to overwhelm.
Read.

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Read also in the account of Acts 8

Acts 8:16
because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Romans 6:3-4
Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Do you see the word "Baptised INTO Christ"?

Immersion of water is ceremonial. An immersion in water, performed as a sign of the removal of sin. A sign here means as public declaration something like throwing a wedding dinner, but the marriage is legal by signing and oath taking before the officer and is not legal because of the wedding dinner.

One evidence to counter your rebuttal. The dying thief on the cross did no water baptism and yet Christ ushered Him into paradise.

Also the signs and miracles bestowed to the believers are not meant to be used as a test or to test God if it's true. You are ignorant of scripture MENJ. Hence why I ignore your "gift".

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Aug 24 2017, 11:33 AM
Sophiera
post Aug 24 2017, 01:02 PM

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What is "menj"?
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post Aug 24 2017, 01:32 PM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Aug 24 2017, 01:02 PM)
What is "menj"?
*
you mean who is menj?

someone who didn't understand Christianity.


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post Aug 24 2017, 02:46 PM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Aug 24 2017, 01:02 PM)
What is "menj"?
*
lol some retard who chose to fight with /k/ cause his maruah tercabar, end up going to jail for 3 days in Johor because he continually insulted the Johor Sultanate

his wife and kid left him, but the embarrassing part was when his wife had to bail him out even when she no longer wanted to have anything to do with him liao




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Jedi
post Aug 24 2017, 07:54 PM

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QUOTE(bismikaallahuma @ Aug 24 2017, 11:04 AM)
1) Are you a Christian? Yes or no?

2) Do you truly believe? Yes or no?

3) Have you been baptized? Yes or no?

4) Mark 16:16-18 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; (a) In my name shall they cast out devils; (b) they shall speak with new tongues; ©They shall take up serpents; and (d) if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; (e) they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

5) Once again. Have you (a) been baptized and (b) do you believe?

a) If NOT then you WILL NOT BE SAVED BUT DAMNED.

b) If a Christian has been baptized and believes then they should exhibit the "signs" mentioned above, such as being able to drink any deadly poison (such as battery acid, etc.) and not be harmed. How about the other signs? Can all believing and baptized Christians lay their hand on any randomly selected terminally ill cancer patient or paraplegic and have him rise completely cured? Does this not require that the Christian world be completely free of all illness, doctors, and hospitals? According to this verse, should not all believing, baptized, Christians be able to do this if they truly believe are to be saved? If a Christian does not exhibit these signs, then does this not prove that they do not believe, and thus will not be saved but damned?

6) Go back to (1).
*
First of all, u may have been taught what u listed here from your ulama or whosoever. Thats just my take, based on my conversations with muslim friends, but if it is not as such, my apologies.

The bible is a book where u cant pick a single line and literally use it to debate just so with people. It has to be read in the whole context.

Yes, anyone who has listened to the Word of God and experienced the love of God will be damned if they did not baptise into Christ (but the word baptism is as what Unknown Warrior said)

Jesus also said, Follow Him.

As long as anyone has love, he will be saved.

QUOTE
The Judgment of the Nations

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. 34 Then the king will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38 And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39 And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?’ 40 And the king will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family,[a] you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Any muslim, hindhu, buddhist, or caveman has every chance to enter the Kingdom of God because they have love, even if they never heard the Word of God.

Of course, you can stand in front of Jesus and say: I wish not to enter it, but to go to hell. God will not force you. There will be people who are kind etc but enter damnation, because they chose to reject life with Christ, just as a music lover who appreciates rap rejects serene, pop.

This post has been edited by Jedi: Aug 24 2017, 08:00 PM
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post Aug 24 2017, 08:07 PM

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QUOTE(Jedi @ Aug 24 2017, 07:54 PM)
First of all, u may have been taught what u listed here from your ulama or whosoever. Thats just my take, based on my conversations with muslim friends, but if it is not as such, my apologies.

The bible is a book where u cant pick a single line and literally use it to debate just so with people. It has to be read in the whole context.

Yes, anyone who has listened to the Word of God and experienced the love of God will be damned if they did not baptise into Christ (but the word baptism is as what Unknown Warrior said)

Jesus also said, Follow Him.

As long as anyone has love, he will be saved.
Any muslim, hindhu, buddhist, or caveman has every chance to enter the Kingdom of God because they have love, even if they never heard the Word of God.

Of course, you can stand in front of Jesus and say: I wish not to enter it, but to go to hell. God will not force you. There will be people who are kind etc but enter damnation, because they chose to reject life with Christ, just as a music lover who appreciates rap rejects serene, pop.
*
It's the blood of Jesus Christ, my Brother. The Blood of Christ washes the person and remove all his sins.

One needs to relent and admit He is a sinner, He needs a savior, He has no power no strength of his own to save himself, He needs to receive this Gift of Salvation free from all merits, confess it before God;

Accepting Christ has died in his place as his substitute and believe Christ is the Son of God by Faith.

At this point, the person is saved. God is righteous to accept Him as promised.


yaokb
post Aug 24 2017, 08:24 PM

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QUOTE(bismikaallahuma @ Aug 24 2017, 11:04 AM)
1) Are you a Christian? Yes or no?

2) Do you truly believe? Yes or no?

3) Have you been baptized? Yes or no?

4) Mark 16:16-18 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; (a) In my name shall they cast out devils; (b) they shall speak with new tongues; ©They shall take up serpents; and (d) if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; (e) they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

5) Once again. Have you (a) been baptized and (b) do you believe?

a) If NOT then you WILL NOT BE SAVED BUT DAMNED.

b) If a Christian has been baptized and believes then they should exhibit the "signs" mentioned above, such as being able to drink any deadly poison (such as battery acid, etc.) and not be harmed. How about the other signs? Can all believing and baptized Christians lay their hand on any randomly selected terminally ill cancer patient or paraplegic and have him rise completely cured? Does this not require that the Christian world be completely free of all illness, doctors, and hospitals? According to this verse, should not all believing, baptized, Christians be able to do this if they truly believe are to be saved? If a Christian does not exhibit these signs, then does this not prove that they do not believe, and thus will not be saved but damned?

6) Go back to (1).
*
Wow it takes a unbeliever to point out to us the measurement of a true believer

I am ashamed that I don't measure up

But I will keep on trusting God that one day I will be obedient and brave enough to be used in all the signs listed.

Having said that I feel sorry for bismikaallahuma because he really has no more excuses when he faces the Lord on judgement day. He knows but chooses not to believe.

I pray that he repentance before he dies.
myway1985
post Aug 24 2017, 08:26 PM

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QUOTE(yaokb @ Aug 24 2017, 08:24 PM)
Wow it takes a unbeliever to point out to us the measurement of a true believer

I am ashamed that I don't measure up

But I will keep on trusting God that one day I will be obedient and brave enough to be used in all the signs listed.

Having said that I feel sorry for bismikaallahuma because he really has no more excuses when he faces the Lord on judgement day. He knows but chooses not to believe.

I pray that  he repentance before he dies.
*
many ppl like tat in the world... only God can dealt with them.. bible said (i forget which verse) , "ye knowth me n yet ye dunno me" i think (KJV)
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post Aug 24 2017, 09:00 PM

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QUOTE(myway1985 @ Aug 24 2017, 08:26 PM)
many ppl like tat in the world... only God can dealt with them.. bible said (i forget which verse) , "ye knowth me n yet ye dunno me" i think (KJV)
*
you mean this one?

Matthew 7:22-23 (NIV) - Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «



Or this one?

Matthew 25:37-38 (NIV) - “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’


This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Aug 24 2017, 09:24 PM
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post Aug 25 2017, 04:29 PM

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What is the Gospel? Part 3

Matthew 13:11 & 13 (NIV) - He replied, "Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them....Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand

How are you doing Friends? Do you know that how you will receive from God depends on how you see Jesus Christ? Hold your horses, this will be made clear later.

In our previous chapter, we have finished to conclude, Grace is the Gospel, Salvation is given to you freely. Jesus died for you while you are still a sinner. There is Heaven and there is also Hell, Hell is very real. And you already know God did not create Hell for you but Heaven because He loves you.

Today we will deal with hard verses, debunking the abuses used to put people into unscriptural fear. Not every hard scripture is for the christians, we need to correctly divide God's word. (2 Timothy 2:15)

I will pull out the most frequently abused and explain what it means, so that you will understand.

Jesus did say not everyone who calls him Lord Lord will enter into his kingdom but only those who does the will of the Father. (Matthew 7:21) Jesus says, He never knew the person who calls Him Lord Lord. This verse is use to imply we need to work and do something otherwise God will not know us. Actually scripture never say we need to work, we add that in on our own. The Bible says Only those who does the will of the Father. What is the will of the Father? Let Bible interpret Bible.

John 6:40 (NIV) - For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

This is one example of how verse have been misconstrued by ignorance. Now you know the truth, don't allow anyone to put fear into your heart.

What about hard verses like, Count the cost, it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God, You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me, etc.

If you look at the main text of today's devotion, God has assured us, the secret of his Kingdom HAS (past tense) been given to you. It's a given! but not to them. Who are the ones who though seeing but do not see, though hearing, do not see?

Look at the pattern how Jesus treat the people that He met in the Bible. To the tax collectors, the prostitutes, the woman who had 5 husbands, the lame, the blind, etc..Jesus NEVER use hard verses on them. Jesus impart graceful words to this group of people. Jesus made God easily accessible to them.

Also look at the pattern the moment someone recognize Jesus, what did Christ do? If you read Luke 9 Verse 18 - 20, you'll note Jesus asked "Who do you say I am?" (Luke 9:20)
When Peter answered correctly "You are the Messiah!", Jesus unveil revelation of what is about to happen. The secrets kept hidden from more prestigious people of Israel.

On the other hand, to the theologians (Nicodemus) during jesus's ministry, the experts of God's word, the teachers, the Chief priests, the pharisees, the people who ask Jesus.."What must I do?"etc, Jesus gives them hard verses. Why?

As I've mentioned earlier. How you receive from God or how God treats you depends on how you see Jesus.

1. Do you see Jesus as an example, as a teacher, someone as a model to follow..then by that, you try perform to justify before God?

or

2. Do you see Jesus as a Saviour/Messiah, someone you depend on completely as justification before God?

So ask yourself, who do you see Jesus as? No.1 or No.2? Whenever one acknowledge and see Jesus as Saviour, God always reveal his secrets and give much grace to this person.
But whenever someone comes to Him thinking he/she has it all together, God will give you the law or hard verses to see if you measure up. Where do you want to be? Think about it.

God Bless.


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post Aug 25 2017, 08:46 PM

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post Aug 25 2017, 09:16 PM

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Ignoring.

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post Aug 26 2017, 09:53 AM

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biggrin.gif

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De_Luffy
post Aug 26 2017, 02:00 PM

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Found one very nice cover song sung few years back by a famous singer from Hong Kong


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post Aug 27 2017, 09:51 AM

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While I was looking at today sermon verses from the Bible, I come across few verse here from the same book talking about prosperity but not directly

What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all – how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.
Romans 8:31‭-‬33 NIVUK
http://bible.com/113/rom.8.31-33.NIVUK
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post Aug 29 2017, 08:57 AM

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QUOTE(De_Luffy @ Aug 27 2017, 09:51 AM)
While I was looking at today sermon verses from the Bible, I come across few verse here from the same book talking about prosperity but not directly

What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all – how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.
Romans 8:31‭-‬33 NIVUK
http://bible.com/113/rom.8.31-33.NIVUK
*
Hi Bro,

this verse is a revelation in letting us know God is for us in answering prayers. He will not withhold your prayers in time of your trouble and in time of your need.

You're right, it's not directly something that qualify as prosperity. Prosperity basically means to thrive and a good example to exemplify what it means is to look at the life of Joseph.


Sophiera
post Aug 31 2017, 06:39 AM

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Hey, something got me thinking. We've heard much about ministering to people when they're unhappy and outcast. When we think of Jesus, the image of him working with the sick, oppressed, and lonely first come to mind.

But what did Jesus do with people who're already happy and contented with where they are? Those who're not interested in touching God because they don't see the need? I'm sure it's noted somewhere.
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post Sep 5 2017, 11:27 AM

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What is the Gospel Part 4?

John 10:10 (NIV) - The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

Good Fellow Believers of Jesus Christ. In the previous series of what is the Gospel,

We have come to understand the Gospel is good news of God reaching out to us, people who are lost. Salvation is really about being reconciled back to God as to how it was in the garden of Eden where God's creation (you and I), fellowship with the creator. In the beginning, Man and Woman had relationship with God. Everything was provided for in the garden. Man did not need to eat bread by the sweat of his brow, all he has to do, is to reach out and pluck whatever fruits he desire to eat.

It was only after the fall, everything came in difficult in suffering and in curse. It was after the fall, Man and Woman has lost the relationship and through the deception of the devil, the people of today no longer recognize who God is.

The Salvation that Christ died for us, bring us back to God, it was a reconciliation to Eden. When I read John 10:10, it help me to understand, how we can have access to life as how God originally
intended to be as in the Garden of Eden. When God created this world, it was never in his mind to have any illness or diseases or any suffering. That is why the Lord demonstrated Healing!, Provided providence, delivered people from all kind of bondages.

God did not do all these just to prove himself, He did this because also because that was the life God intended for his creation to have. True, The Lord did say in this world we will have trouble. This is only because the small god of this world is still around. However take heart, the one who is in you is greater in power than the one who is in the world.

The people of this world are so lost, Money has become a god. Many people cannot sleep because they are worried about the future, where will they find income, if they loses their job. Some people, worried for money, seek fortune in various places such as gambling, seek financial opportunity such as forex trading, share trading, etc.

And yet despite seeking all these things, Man is never secured and still feel lost in a way. I'm here to share with you, there is a God who can give you rest, rest from all these seeking. This God of the Bible has proven Himself Faithful and true to his word. I am one of his living testimony. I was once lost too, worried about the future. That is why I fight heavily sharing the gospel. Because in the gospel, when you are reconcile back to God, God can provide for your living! God can move you from the place of your lack to a place of thriving!

The only Irony is that, When you take up this promise, God has granted to you, don't seek money any longer! Because the one who is the Master is God himself, not the money. I want to establish, the gospel is true and is indeed good news! Despite all the claims of the things you see in the internet, mentioning example like "how to get paid Rm500 everyday without working, passive income while you sleep". All these are futile claims and if you put your trust in these things, you will still feel shaken and never secure.

Thousands of years ago, A Man once said, "Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds!"

This is the God whom Christ Jesus came to reconcile you back! Will you not consider accepting Christ as your saviour and find rest from all these vanity?







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post Sep 5 2017, 01:00 PM

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post Sep 5 2017, 01:14 PM

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Do you know that Jesus’ name is also Immanuel, God with us?

This means that our God never leaves us nor forsakes us (see Hebrews 13:5).

He is right by our side to comfort us, strengthen us, and gently guide us by His wisdom.


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post Sep 6 2017, 08:37 AM

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Good morning.

Is polygamy allowed in Christianity?
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post Sep 6 2017, 08:55 AM

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Debunking Using God for personal benefit?

Matthew 20:28 (NIV) - just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

There are some sayings in the Christian Circle that has spread especially in Malaysia that has caused much hindrances to the believer's life and ironically it has resulted the same believers complaining why God doesn't answer their prayers.

One such teaching is that popular saying asking God in prayer like a christmas wishlist, treating God like a Hotel Bell boy, or the popular using God instead of worshipping God.

And such saying has cause many not to pray. Either that it has caused guilt to people in not daring to ask God. Yet Bible says you have NOT because you asked NOT, ironic isn't it?

As believers, we must learn to discard and disregard the sayings of "man". Because there are some people who has zeal but not according to knowledge of the Bible. These are the religious spirit which has permeated within the pharisees circle thousand of years ago and sadly it still permeates today.

What does the Bible say?

Jesus said, He did not come to be served. Jesus came to serve. If Jesus came to serve, we must allow Him to serve.
You need to ask this question and you may be shocked at the revelation.

Who did Jesus came to serve? Think about it. The answer lies in the very same verse.

Some believers are like the early stage of apostle Peter.

"Lord! You shall NEVER wash my feet".

And it is this sort of believers that hit others You must Worship God and not use God for your own personal benefit. Though it may sound religiously kosher to say such things but it is still the saying of Man. Just know this, sayings of Man are never reliable. Only God's word is reliable.

Do you know, that in order for you to be saved, you need to receive? Our position as believers before God is to be receivers. Unless you allow Jesus to give you, you cannot serve others.

I dare ask you this, WHAT DO YOU HAVE, that you think you can give God? Your very life came from Him. In truth, you have NOTHING you can give. God has all the powers and resources unlimited, everything belongs to him. If you think your obedience is the least you can give to God, THINK again. Philippians 2:13 says, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose. Still comes back to God as the source.

Truth is, you are bankrupt Man who needs a saviour, if you are willing to admit this truth. And a Man who has nothing needs to be filled with what God has to give.

So dear friends, let us discard everything religious sayings of Man that hinders. We need to keep receiving abundance of God's Grace and his Gift of righteousness that we may reign in Life!

God Bless.




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post Sep 6 2017, 08:59 AM

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QUOTE(NicoRobinz @ Sep 6 2017, 08:37 AM)
Good morning.

Is polygamy allowed in Christianity?
*
Not really.

Matthew 19:4-6 (NIV) - …Jesus answered, “Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female’ 5and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.”

Wife. Singular.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Sep 6 2017, 08:59 AM
TSunknown warrior
post Sep 6 2017, 09:06 AM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Aug 31 2017, 06:39 AM)
Hey, something got me thinking. We've heard much about ministering to people when they're unhappy and outcast. When we think of Jesus, the image of him working with the sick, oppressed, and lonely first come to mind.

But what did Jesus do with people who're already happy and contented with where they are? Those who're not interested in touching God because they don't see the need? I'm sure it's noted somewhere.
*
Depends on what they are happy and contend about?

If they are happy and contend in this life, still need to preach the gospel, a person's spirit does not die but is eternal, where will the person be without God when he dies?

There is life even after this 1st death.

Still need to preach that every pre-believer has fallen short of God Glory and is a sinner.

Whether the person accepts or not, that is something, we should not force but to leave it at their discretion.


NicoRobinz
post Sep 6 2017, 09:21 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Sep 6 2017, 08:59 AM)
Not really.

Matthew 19:4-6 (NIV) - …Jesus answered, “Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female’ 5and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.”

Wife. Singular.
*
True.

But why did God allow people in Old Testament to have so many wives?
NicoRobinz
post Sep 6 2017, 09:23 AM

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Unknown Warrior,

One more question.

What if a person has few wives and he now decides to be Christian? Does he have to divorce all his wives except his very first wife?
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post Sep 6 2017, 09:40 AM

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QUOTE(NicoRobinz @ Sep 6 2017, 09:23 AM)
Unknown Warrior,

One more question.

What if a person has few wives and he now decides to be Christian? Does he have to divorce all his wives except his very first wife?
*
In Malaysia, only Muslim men are allowed to marry up to 4 wives, other race and religions can only marry one (legally of course).
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post Sep 6 2017, 11:42 AM

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QUOTE(NicoRobinz @ Sep 6 2017, 09:21 AM)
True.

But why did God allow people in Old Testament to have so many wives?
*
QUOTE(NicoRobinz @ Sep 6 2017, 09:23 AM)
Unknown Warrior,

One more question.

What if a person has few wives and he now decides to be Christian? Does he have to divorce all his wives except his very first wife?
*
The things that has happened in the OT are meant for us to take heed as warning, to understand, to learn not meant for us to follow after. We are to follow Christ Jesus as the New Covenant. This is explained in:

1 Corinthians 10:11 (NIV) - These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.

Matthew 19:4-6 was an excerpt taken from Genesis 2:24. God never did sanction a marriage of more than one wife. The people back then did it on their own accord.

God has built and design us in such a way that we feel extremely jealous / hurt / betrayed when our partner decides He/She not only loves us but also another person. This is natural in any woman or man. That is also 1 sign of how we know Polygamy was never God's will.

Yes true, people back in the OT had more than 1 wife and you can also see the problem that came with it, the jealousy and the fighting for attention between wives. This causes untold insecurity for the woman, true back then, true even today.

Look at what happened to King Solomon in this verse

Nehemiah 13:26 (NIV) - Was it not because of marriages like these that Solomon king of Israel sinned? Among the many nations there was no king like him. He was loved by his God, and God made him king over all Israel, but even he was led into sin by foreign women.

This is an indication, More often polygamy opens up problem rather than solving anything.

And to answer your 2nd question. Because they already were married before conversion and thus was ignorant of knowing God's will, and seeing that God also disprove divorce, I don't see why they should divorce as the children will be affected as well. But then this is up to the conviction of the said husband in question. He will need to bear take ownership, responsibility and the consequence of this predicament.

The only thing that I know of, such a Man of this predicament should not be in leadership in a Church. Other than that, I do not know if there is any other violation .
NicoRobinz
post Sep 6 2017, 11:53 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Sep 6 2017, 11:42 AM)
The things that has happened in the OT are meant for us to take heed as warning, to understand, to learn not meant for us to follow after. We are to follow Christ Jesus as the New Covenant.  This is explained in:

1 Corinthians 10:11 (NIV) - These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.

Matthew 19:4-6 was an excerpt taken from Genesis 2:24. God never did sanction a marriage of more than one wife. The people back then did it on their own accord.

God has built and design us in such a way that we feel extremely jealous / hurt / betrayed when our partner decides He/She not only loves us but also another person. This is natural in any woman or man. That is also 1 sign of how we know Polygamy was never God's will.

Yes true, people back in the OT had more than 1 wife and you can also see the problem that came with it, the jealousy and the fighting for attention between wives. This causes untold insecurity for the woman, true back then, true even today.

Look at what happened to King Solomon in this verse

Nehemiah 13:26 (NIV) - Was it not because of marriages like these that Solomon king of Israel sinned? Among the many nations there was no king like him. He was loved by his God, and God made him king over all Israel, but even he was led into sin by foreign women.

This is an indication, More often polygamy opens up problem rather than solving anything.

And to answer your 2nd question. Because they already were married before conversion and thus was ignorant of knowing God's will, and seeing that God also disprove divorce, I don't see why they should divorce as the children will be affected as well. But then this is up to the conviction of the said husband in question. He will need to bear take ownership, responsibility and the consequence of this predicament.

The only thing that I know of, such a Man of this predicament should not be in leadership in a Church. Other than that, I do not know if there is any other violation .
*
thanks for your very clear explanation.

But I have one more question.

What did Jesus truly mean when he said he came to fulfill what's in Old testament, not to abolish them? Doesn't that mean Christians have to follow the laws in Old Testament as well? Like, rest on the seventh day, do not eat animals that are deemed unclean and etc.

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post Sep 6 2017, 02:02 PM

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QUOTE(NicoRobinz @ Sep 6 2017, 11:53 AM)
thanks for your very clear explanation.

But I have one more question.

What did Jesus truly mean when he said he came to fulfill what's in Old testament, not to abolish them? Doesn't that mean Christians have to follow the laws in Old Testament as well? Like, rest on the seventh day, do not eat animals that are deemed unclean and etc.
*
This is one of my favourite verse, that many have misunderstood. Opponents of Christianity often used it against us and "religious" defenders of God's OT law also use it in their theology. Firstly the answer is No to your initial question.

I need to pull out the whole context:

Matthew 5

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.


First you need to understand the reason for God's Law is not to make you righteous but to show you, that you have sin. And Sin only comes in empowerment through God's Law, meaning without God's Law, Sin is also powerless. The Law was designed to only do that.

1 Corinthians 15:56 (NIV) - The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
Romans 7:8 (NIV) - But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead.


If you read the context, if you see the highlighted bold (verse 17, Matthew 5), AND and if you understand the reason for the cross You'll begin to understand the reason why, Jesus said that is because ONLY He alone could fulfilled the Law. Think about it. This verse is essentially saying "I have come to fulfilled it". All the people in the Old Testament could not, even the best among them, King David, A Man after God's own heart failed. Nobody could.

This Law was given in actuality, prepared for the Son of God.

And if you read verse 18, it says there the Law stands until "everything is accomplished". The question to ask is, What is "everything is accomplished"?

Answer is The Cross, the Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. The Finished Work of Christ. (Read John 19:28.) That is the accomplishment that defeated the devil. In there those who are born again in Christ Jesus are no longer under the Law for justification. The New justification is through the Grace/Mercy of God via our Faith.

Below are the supporting verse to help us know we are no longer under Law.

Romans 7:6 (NIV) - But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. [This verse tells us, we are no longer under law]

Romans 3:24 (NIV) - and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. [justified free from all merits by God's grace, not the law]

Ephesians 1:7 (NIC) - In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, [not according to the law]

Ephesians 2:8 (NIv) - For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, [The word..not from yourselves here refer to your own works, performance, effort)

Because the Cross has been accomplished, the flipside of verse 18 is true, the smallest letter, the least stroke of a pen in the Law that stood against believers disappears.

You know, Our God is a very very good God. If you understood the Heart of God, why Jesus said, He did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfilled it, you'll begin to realize, He did this to bring all his believers to ENTER in Salvation easy. Think about it. We get to enter in by our Faith in Christ. Our Lord did the tremendously difficult task at the cross. And God's word says when we Love, we fulfilled all the sum total of the Law. It doesn't get any easier than this.

Galatians 5:14 (NIV) - For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
Romans 10:4 (NIV) - Christ is the end of the Law, in order to bring righteousness to everyone who believes. (Not perform)

Hence why Grace of Christ is the Good news. (Gospel = Good news)

Because God is so graceful, we should not take God's grace in vain but to live up to his name. icon_rolleyes.gif


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post Sep 7 2017, 08:51 AM

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As Jesus is, so are you in this world

1 John 4:17 KJV) - Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

If you want to know what God is like, look to Jesus. Bible says Jesus is the exact representation of who God is.

Until you learn to identity yourself in Christ Jesus, you will never have that firm assurance of Salvation. You will always be tossed by the waves of doubt because you look at yourself represented to be judged before God. Until you know you are really loved by God, have faith in what his word says about your identity, you will always be in fear and on shaky ground.

And that is the modus operandi of the devil. He will use every power of deception to point you to yourself to be judged before God, even using scripture or the pulpit to deceive you. The devil is very cunning, able to use "religious" people to point you to your sins. Many a times, you may even feel overwhelmed by voices saying, You call yourself a christian, look at how you threat people, you have not please God enough, you use God like Santa Clause for a wish list, etc. Every kind of guilt/condemnation can creep in unknowingly.

Bible says in

Colossians 3:3 (NIV) - For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.

Whenever you hear judgemental voices, quote these 2 verses. Quote it and accept this by Faith even though you know you don't measure up.

Tell youself. As Jesus is, so are you in this world. Learn to look to Christ as your identity.

Is Father God pleased with Jesus Christ? So are you!
Is Jesus Christ under any condemnation? So are you!
Is Jesus Christ under God's Favour? So are you!
Is Jesus Christ Healthy? So are you!

Use such reasoning and use these 2 verses to fight against voices of condemnation or voices of people attacking you.

Dear Friends, For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God!

God Bless!




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post Sep 7 2017, 11:16 AM

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post Sep 8 2017, 08:21 AM

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Morning fellow Christians.

When you pray to Father God, quote

Romans 8:32 at the end of your prayer, Thanking the Father.

You can pray like this:

"Father I thank you that you hear my prayers. And I also Thank you, that because you did not spare your own son, how will you also not along with my Lord Give me all things."

It makes a lot of difference to the dynamic of your Faith.

God Bless bro n sis in Christ.
Sophiera
post Sep 9 2017, 05:47 PM

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https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comme...ant_nabeel_who/

He's dying from stomach cancer. Urgent prayers stage de.
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post Sep 11 2017, 11:32 AM

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Evidence of unbroken Salvation

1 Corinthians 6:19 (KJV) - What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Dear Fellow Believers,

I pray this will give you insight.

Realize that when the apostle Paul wrote this part of scripture, the word used in indication is present tense.

Translated in today's language,

Don't you know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit?

This Verse was used to help the corinthian Christians understand, despite of their short comings [Read all the wrongdoings stated in 1 Corinthians 6 (whole chapter)],

their body is STILL the temple of the Holy Spirit, not Was or Were.

Think about it, what it means.

God Bless.


This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Sep 12 2017, 09:41 AM
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post Sep 12 2017, 10:39 AM

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Being One with God

1 Corinthians 6:17 (NIV) - But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

The word of God says, when you are in union with God, you are also one in spirit with God.

This is something that is promised will happen when you practise to be united with God every hour of your life.

Having God in your life is equivalent to always having hope even when adversity comes.

Being One with God fills in the empty gap in your life. You will no longer search, neither feel the empty pain of loneliness. You will also note, things change in your life, many good things happen.

You will also not be troubled, by the circumstance of politic or whatever powers that oppresses Man, because you now know God who is creator and also the Lord of all things in this universe can upset such powers.

I don't know about you but dear Friend, only God is able to handle the deepest complexity of whatever that troubles Man and Woman, if you allow Him to come into your life.

I can testify this to be true.

God Bless.

Sophiera
post Sep 12 2017, 08:24 PM

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Someone showed me John Peterson's talks about psychology and whatnot. I don't know if he's Christian or not, but after listening to some of his vids I learned some stuff.

The cycle of violent ideologies, for example. And that the first step of any real change is acknowledging your own flaws.

All of these are already written in the Bible, 2000 years ish before modern psychology.
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post Sep 14 2017, 08:57 AM

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If you are saved, start living like one!

2 Peter 1:10 (NIV) - Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble,


Good Day friends.

In 2 Peter 1:5, you'll see the apostle Peter mentioning to ADD these to your Faith:

goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love.

Although we can argue all those comes as fruits by works of the Holy Spirit, nothing of us in essence, what Apostle Paul is saying in essence is this.

Since you are saved, start acting like one. Don't live your life as you used to, cursing, using vulgarity, lust of pornopgrahy, lying, cheating, etc.

See and understand that the Christian Life is in symbiosis life with God. You take 1 step of Faith believing, God goes into work in your life.

So when you take 1 step of Faith wanting to do goodness or to attain knowledge, God works in you, so that you start to do good things, and also attaining knowledge!

When you keep doing this in increasing measure, you are just solidifying that you have been saved.

The Bible says, when you don't this; you are in essence have forgotten that you have been saved. So adding all these virtues are important!

Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

God Bless.


Carlo J
post Sep 14 2017, 02:35 PM

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Fellow brethren,

My church is hosting this event next week.

It will definitely be beneficial if you guys come.

Attached Image

Attached Image
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post Sep 15 2017, 10:49 AM

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Who is against you?

Romans 8:31 (NIV) - What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?

If you feel that everything in this world is against you. Know that God is for you.

Even if you feel God is against you. Know that by truth of scripture, God is for you!

The Bible says, the Devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour (1 Peter 5:8). What this means is that he seeks to deceive someone to give a false impression of God, making it
seem as if God is angry with you as a roaring lion.

But let Romans 8:31 sink into your spirit and heart, God is not angry at you and is for you!

God Bless!


Sophiera
post Sep 15 2017, 01:52 PM

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I'm sorry UW. I find it very hard to understand. By just existing we cause a chain of events that hurt another person. By deed and thought, by inaction or action.

Just existing as a human contributes to the problem of sin and there's no way to have everyone 100 percent good all the time...

This post has been edited by Sophiera: Sep 15 2017, 01:53 PM
TSunknown warrior
post Sep 15 2017, 02:04 PM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Sep 15 2017, 01:52 PM)
I'm sorry UW. I find it very hard to understand. By just existing we cause a chain of events that hurt another person. By deed and thought, by inaction or action.

Just existing as a human contributes to the problem of sin and there's no way to have everyone 100 percent good all the time...
*
That is why Christ came to set things right for people who receive His Grace.

And that is why you must receive because only Grace can change you from the inside, not God's law.

People ask me, what is Grace? Is it a teaching? A subject? No, it's the person of Jesus Christ.

I used to be in bondage to Fits of Rage and Anger and Lust to pornography.

Christ delivered me from such bondage as many others have. These days I'm quite resistant to such compared to previously. If Christ can do this for me, He can do it for you too. Hence Romans 8:31.

True, I don't think people can be 100% perfect while in this body...but does that mean in our negative temperament God will be against us? Answer is No. God is not like our earthly father. He is God who knows everything about you and still would sent his Son to die for you. Beside this is just temporal. When we pass on and be with the Lord, we will have our new Heavenly Body absent of all sin, we will have perfection by then.

So don't worry about it.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Sep 15 2017, 02:16 PM
Carlo J
post Sep 17 2017, 06:54 PM

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Guys,

Nabeel Qureshi has finally entered into the joy of the Lord Jesus Christ after a year long battle with stomach cancer.

Here's the link: https://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org/justin...eshi-1983-2017/
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post Sep 17 2017, 07:47 PM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Sep 9 2017, 05:47 PM)
https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comme...ant_nabeel_who/

He's dying from stomach cancer. Urgent prayers stage de.
*
QUOTE(Carlo J @ Sep 17 2017, 06:54 PM)
Guys,

Nabeel Qureshi has finally entered into the joy of the Lord Jesus Christ after a year long battle with stomach cancer.

Here's the link: https://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org/justin...eshi-1983-2017/
*
I noticed that people who converts like Nabil, are usually on fire. passionate for the gospel......the passion burns incessantly.

Christians don't lose. either way. We live for God, when we die we enter into God's Kingdom.


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post Sep 17 2017, 08:36 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Sep 17 2017, 07:47 PM)
I noticed that people who converts like Nabil, are usually on fire. passionate for the gospel......the passion burns incessantly.

Christians don't lose. either way. We live for God, when we die we enter into God's Kingdom.
*
Oh no...

I still feel sad. MOre like "who's going to talk to the Muslims now?" It feels like a huge loss.
Carlo J
post Sep 17 2017, 08:57 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Sep 17 2017, 07:47 PM)
I noticed that people who converts like Nabil, are usually on fire. passionate for the gospel......the passion burns incessantly.

Christians don't lose. either way. We live for God, when we die we enter into God's Kingdom.
*
Yes, like in the scriptures: For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. -Philippians 1:21

So, it's a win for Nabeel.

QUOTE(Sophiera @ Sep 17 2017, 08:36 PM)
Oh no...

I still feel sad. MOre like "who's going to talk to the Muslims now?" It feels like a huge loss.
*
I believe we can, God has His plan and his death might inspire and impact the Muslims that he had spoken to, perhaps his family as well.

I too have been reaching out to my Muslim friends and they are quite open to the bible and church events and that's a progress for me.
TSunknown warrior
post Sep 17 2017, 09:02 PM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Sep 17 2017, 08:36 PM)
Oh no...

I still feel sad. MOre like "who's going to talk to the Muslims now?" It feels like a huge loss.
*
Plenty of ex-moslem convert to christian apologetics from middle east.

Plentiful.

Not to worry, Nabil isn't the only one or the best.

Many of them are residing in the states, some still in the middle east.



TSunknown warrior
post Sep 20 2017, 10:36 AM

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Many Christians don't consider their old self dead

Colossians 3:3 (NIV) - For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.

One of the reason why God's word assures of us Salvation is because we are suppose to be dead.
Colossians 3:3 says that we have died and our life is now hidden in Christ in God.

What this means is that, our old sinful identity is dead before God, our rightful identify before God is now Christ, that is why we can have assurance of Salvation.
And because Christ has been judged, we will not be judged because God promised when we put our Faith in Him, God credit that as righteousness.
What many Christian don't understand about Colossians 3:3 is that God only look to Christ(and not us) when we received Christ as our Saviour.

Problem right now is that many of us consider ourselves alive before God to be judged in our thoughts and action.

This is the key problem where we have missed it and don't understand Colossians 3:3.

You may understand this for this very second, but come tomorrow morning, you will forget and there will be some sort of subconscious voice of condemnation, the guilt that you feel when you have done wrong or fallen short of God's standard. This tendency will keep coming back, making you forget, you have died even when you have done wrong, your old identity is no more. You will believe your identity is still alive.

It takes the Holy Spirit to give you this revelation to sink in. It is not easy, even I have struggles in this area of identity at time but I believe this truth is critically important to share out regardless.

Please stop for a moment and refuse to move until you really understand this revelation of you have died. Past tense.

God Bless.

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post Sep 21 2017, 10:33 AM

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Release from Ceremonial Law?

Romans 7:6 (NIV) - But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Good Days fellow believers.

This verse implies we have been released from the Law under the OT. There's a teaching among Christian circle purported, we have been only released from ceremonial laws of moses and not the 10 commandments.

but if you look at the context of Romans 7..where in verse 7, it says;

Romans 7:7: What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "You shall not covet."


The Law of Covet is part of the 10 commandments.

This once and for all, put to rest the argument we have been released not only ceremonial laws but also the 10 commandments. Those who fight for the law in the OT need to read this and understand this.

There is also another teaching in the body of Christ, obedience is key to Salvation.

I want to bring this verse that will also put to rest of this argument.

Galatians 3:2 (NIv) - I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

Do you see that? Works of the Law here refers to your obedience or performance.

The Spirit here is referring to the Holy Spirit. And how is it tied to Salvation?

Bible says it like this;

Ephesians 1:13-14 (NIV) - And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession to the praise of his glory.

Without the HS in you, you do not have Salvation. You do not receive because of obedience, you receive because of Faith.

Very clear cut in these verse as evidence. Obedience is the fruit, not the root! You cannot produce it by will power or effort, only comes and works by Faith.

Grace is the Gospel, that will lead you home!

God Bless.


This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Sep 21 2017, 11:43 AM
TSunknown warrior
post Sep 21 2017, 03:35 PM

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post Sep 22 2017, 07:19 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jun 8 2017, 07:29 PM)
laugh.gif

Learn to relax and don't let discussion or people to affect your feelings. Discuss with objectivity in mind so that people can understand.

But those who keep on stirring trying to provoke, you just ignore lah...your life doesn't revolve what these people say. Your revolves around what God says. icon_rolleyes.gif
*
indeed it is. biggrin.gif in life or reality, it's very important to be able to identify positive minded people and discard gossipy people....but Im sure God will guide us in determining who we should mix with and who we should stay away frm...
TSunknown warrior
post Sep 25 2017, 09:38 AM

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Working out, not working for

Philippians 2:12-13 (NIV) - Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

It is interesting to note that the scripture is so clear. We are to work out our Salvation, not work for. What is the difference?
The difference is; working for denotes working in order to qualify. Working out denotes, because of, therefore we work out.

Do you understand? because there is errornous teaching in the body of Christ purporting that we need to work for our Salvation and they quote this verse in ignorance saying see? This verse say we need to work for our salvation else you won't get it then goes on teaching about obedience, sin and what not. Those who have followed my devotion will know this classic error.

However that is not the message I wanted to bring to you today. There is another teaching in that verse which i want to bring to you.

It is interesting to note and I feel preachers behind the pulpit should emphasize on this more on verse 13 of above main text.

It is God who works in you....to will, meaning if you are unwilling, God can give you the ability to be able to and also to want to. (to will).

I want to bring to you an interesting passage in the Bible in Mark 9. A Father whose son was possessed by a demonic spirit did not have the Faith to believe for deliverance.

He said it like this ironically in Mark 9:24

Immediately the boy's father exclaimed, "I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!" He wanted to believe but just unable to.

I can imagine how panicky and how anxious the father is, he was willing to say anything before God just to get his son delivered. And yet interestingly Jesus worked in spite of his unbelief. Oh I don't think you heard me. I said: Jesus worked in spite of his unbelief.

What is the my point?

With regards to Philippians 2:12-13; You can ask God for Faith is you don't have Faith. If Jesus is willing to work his miracle for this Father who couldn't believe recorded in Mark 9, how much more if you asked Jesus the will to believe?

There are testimonies of people I've heard who don't have faith for healing. This person has been attending a healing rally and he couldn't receive. He came back again and again, but on the 2nd or 3rd night, this person prayed to Jesus asking to impart Faith for him to believe and Jesus imparted what He asked for.

Our God is amazing. In the Gospel of the Grace of Christ, we are covered in almost all areas of weaknesses! If only you knew scripture and the word of God, how much God has got you covered!

Give God the Glory and the Praise. What we don't have, God will supply for us to work out our Salvation!

God Bless.


BlueTicket
post Sep 26 2017, 11:32 AM

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Hi,

I think we learnt this world is there for 4.5 billion years in science. so when you learn this in science, what do u feel when bible say our world is only here for 6000 years?




BlueTicket
post Sep 26 2017, 11:43 AM

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In Quran, they say 6 days is measured in day in universe. would like to know how Christian say about tis as well.
TSunknown warrior
post Sep 27 2017, 08:58 AM

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God is a Father

Romans 8:15 (NIV) - The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father."

The Holy Spirit refuse to translates this word "Abba" but to record it as it is.

Children in Israel, even today call their paternal fathers as Abba. I can imagine them running around the house calling "abba abba" to get their Father's attention. In the cultures of various people, we called our Fathers as Papa, Ba, Bapa, etc, it would not be wrong to call God as that because Romans 8:15 helps us to understand that.

This is how Jesus came to reveal God. He demonstrated this when he welcome children into his fold, hug them and kiss them as a father would.

This is how God wants us to know Him as demonstrated in the beginning in the book of Genesis when He walk with Adam and Eve.

This is the God whom I also reveal to you because God has been a father to me as well. Hence why the strong devotional emphasis on all the goodness of God, for example his grace, his blessing, his prosperity, his unshakeable Salvation, etc which is what I receive, so I share with you.

Some of you may not have good earthly fathers, but understand that God is not like any earthly fathers. He will reveal himself in reality and you will experience his goodness when you learn to see and understand who His Son (Christ) is. God never abandon his Son Jesus, He will never abandon you.

The reason for the sharing is so that you too can be strengthened in Faith to know Christ and to know Father God and in turn when you are strengthened i hope you will help others.

I do this because I know there are many troubled individual in this forum who needs help but has yet to come to God to ask for help.

Throughout the years I've faced persecution because of this but it does not faze me because to the testimony of His glory, Father God has been real to me, so real I cannot go back, neither turn away to help others. No matter what people throw at me, the strong grace The Lord has imparted to this thread and to my life has help me stand.

I pray for the Grace of Christ to be on you.

God Bless.






TSunknown warrior
post Sep 27 2017, 11:53 PM

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QUOTE(BlueTicket @ Sep 26 2017, 11:32 AM)
Hi,

I think we learnt this world is there for 4.5 billion years in science. so when you learn this in science, what do u feel when bible say our world is only here for 6000 years?
*
QUOTE(BlueTicket @ Sep 26 2017, 11:43 AM)
In Quran, they say 6 days is measured in day in universe. would like to know how Christian say about tis as well.
*
Since you indicated "Bible Says".

Show me where is the verse that states our world is only here for 6000 years?


BlueTicket
post Sep 28 2017, 05:54 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Sep 27 2017, 11:53 PM)
Since you indicated "Bible Says".

Show me where is the verse that states our world is only here for 6000 years?
*
i think u can count from adam generation to Jesus christ.

it is very clear show in the bible.

maybe u will say after God made the world then it take very longgggg time until they eat the apple tat is not supposed to eat. and Adam and eve have no children until they left garden of eden.

but since both of them havent eat the fruit yet, supposed no death, right? how come fossil dinosaurs can be found around the world? they r buried for million of years. and according to science, dinosaurs extinct b4 human appear.

would like to know how christians view these as well.

No offense, im not challenging ur belief. just wanna know more.
TSunknown warrior
post Sep 28 2017, 08:23 AM

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QUOTE(BlueTicket @ Sep 28 2017, 05:54 AM)
i think u can count from adam generation to Jesus christ.

it is very clear show in the bible.

maybe u will say after God made the world then it take very longgggg time until they eat the apple tat is not supposed to eat. and Adam and eve have no children until they left garden of eden.

but since both of them havent eat the fruit yet, supposed no death, right? how come fossil dinosaurs can be found around the world? they r buried for million of years. and according to science, dinosaurs extinct b4 human appear.

would like to know how christians view these as well.

No offense, im not challenging ur belief. just wanna know more.
*
When you say, you can count, that is what you say but nothing whatever the Bible states of whatever age of this world.

So it doesn't make sense to state "The Bible says", when you are the assuming.

Talking about the context here.

No offense taken, just trying to dispel the misconception here.

This is something, Atheist, and those who attack christianity usually used in ignorance.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Sep 28 2017, 08:27 AM
SpikeMarlene
post Sep 28 2017, 08:40 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Sep 28 2017, 08:23 AM)
When you say, you can count, that is what you say but nothing whatever the Bible states of whatever age of this world.

So it doesn't make sense to state "The Bible says", when you are the assuming.

Talking about the context here.

No offense taken, just trying to dispel the misconception here.

This is something, Atheist, and those who attack christianity usually used in ignorance.
*
While the Bible does not explicit say the age of the earth is 6000 years, but many notable Christians and even Christian scholars have made that calculation and came to the figure of about 6000 years. Which I agree is being used by atheists to attack Christianity. So the fire did not start with atheist ignorance but it is an often argued position for many Christians who insisted on the biblical age.

https://answersingenesis.org/age-of-the-ear...d-is-the-earth/
Quote,
At this point, the first five days are negligible. Quite a few people have done this calculation using the Masoretic text (which is what most English translations are based on) and with careful attention to the biblical details, they have arrived at the same time frame of about 6,000 years, or about 4000 B.C. Two of the most popular, and perhaps best, are a recent work by Dr. Floyd Jones4 and a much earlier book by Archbishop James Ussher5 (1581–1656). See table 1.

Table 1. Jones and Ussher

Name Age Calculated Reference and Date
Archbishop James Ussher 4004 B.C. The Annals of the World, A.D. 1658
Dr. Floyd Nolan Jones 4004 B.C. The Chronology of the Old Testament, A.D. 1993

The misconception exists that Ussher and Jones were the only ones to arrive at a date of 4000 B.C.; however, this is not the case at all. Jones6 lists several chronologists who have undertaken the task of calculating the age of the earth based on the Bible, and their calculations range from 5501 to 3836 B.C. A few are listed in table 2.
thomasthai
post Sep 28 2017, 08:42 AM

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QUOTE(BlueTicket @ Sep 26 2017, 11:32 AM)
Hi,

I think we learnt this world is there for 4.5 billion years in science. so when you learn this in science, what do u feel when bible say our world is only here for 6000 years?
*
Hi,

What makes you so sure that the scientists are right?

What do you think about all the theist scientists that think that the bible is a reliable account on creation?

SpikeMarlene
post Sep 28 2017, 08:44 AM

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QUOTE(thomasthai @ Sep 28 2017, 08:42 AM)
Hi,

What makes you so sure that the scientists are right?

What do you think about all the theist scientists that think that the bible is a reliable account on creation?
*
We can start a thread to see how sure we are if your position of a 6000 years old earth is correct or science is right, if you want. Here as I understand is not appropriate.
BlueTicket
post Sep 28 2017, 08:59 AM

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QUOTE(thomasthai @ Sep 28 2017, 08:42 AM)
Hi,

What makes you so sure that the scientists are right?

What do you think about all the theist scientists that think that the bible is a reliable account on creation?
*
bcoz many discoveries burried in the earth can only happen after million of years?

so do u bliv wat u were taught about science when u were in school?
TSunknown warrior
post Sep 28 2017, 09:51 AM

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Angry Rebuking God?

Hebrews 1:3 (NIV) - The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

Good day fellow believers,

Hebrews 1:3 says that Jesus is the exact representation of who God is. What this means is that how Jesus is is exactly how God the father is. Jesus told Philip in John 14:9:
Jesus replied, "Philip, I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
Even Jesus's disciple did not understood that at first, whatmore many people today.

Throughout the Bible, I see Jesus as always being wonderfully calm and in peace, if not being quite a cool God. Jesus only reserve his rebuke against the Pharisees for their hypocrisy in trying to make it hard for people to come to God. And The only place where the Bible record with the words stating, Jesus being angry was when the pharisees and the teachers of the Law wanted to catch him to see if he would heal a man with a shriveled hand. (Mark 3) And that is also because those people have a hard heart in wanting to uphold the Law rather than help a desperate person in need of healing, displaying lack of grace. That is what made Christ angry.

People tell me when Christ overturn the money changer table at the temple and used the whip, that is a display of anger. I used to think so as well until it occur to me, the Bible never state, Jesus did those things out of anger, only that we presumed that it was. Jesus Christ could do those without anger as well and it can be equally true. John 2:17 gave a clue on the word "zeal" and I've check the word zeal in the Greek is "zelos" which also means eagerness/jealous.

What is my point?

I've began to understand where we as the Church have missed it. Some people reluctant to come to God because they see Him as an Angry God, waiting to catch mistakes as how some Pastor portray him to be. I know for a fact it's because there are pastors / church leaders who give the impression, God will angrily rebuke you and then go on in a tirade of displaying Angry rebuking against another fellow believer which can be discouraging.

but UW, what about in the Old Testament?

My answer is; Of Course! When you put yourself under Law, presuming on your own strength then God will treat you according to your own strength. You will be judged according to whatever you do or say. Remember the difference. And you will begin to note why some other religion which heavily emphasize on the Law, have so much problems after problem and conflicts within their community and also affecting those outside their community.

Because the bible say in John 1:17, Grace and Truth came through Jesus Christ, that is the New Covenant. The Laws of God is not the New Covenant. Grace and truth is. The Truth that came by Jesus Christ is Grace that will set people free. When you don't know how to properly divide the Covenants and mix up the two, no wonder we have so much angry rebuking in the Church today and people are leaving Church, not because of sin but because they are discouraged if not disappointed of not seeing God's Grace when in actual fact God is far more graceful than any preacher display him to be.

I'm here to reveal to you Father is not how some people portray him to be. God is perfect Love, not like the kind of love displayed by any Man. Look to Jesus. That is why I expound of the characteristic of Christ in the beginning of this devotion. Look to Christ, HE is the exact representation of God and if you study about Him, you will not find Him to be angry rebuking God as how some people portray in ignorance.

Will there be correction? Answer is Yes. but look the way Jesus correct people, You will never find Christ tirading against sinners in angry judgemental rebuking as how some preachers does. He does the opposite, Jesus is very gentle in handling people, especially the ungodly. When Jesus is hard on people, He doesn't hurt people, Even when He seems Soft, He is immensely powerful and untouchable by all the powers that is in this world. Jesus is altogether lovely and this is the God that I worship because of his perfect love and grace.

God Bless.





thomasthai
post Sep 28 2017, 11:04 AM

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QUOTE(SpikeMarlene @ Sep 28 2017, 08:44 AM)
We can start a thread to see how sure we are if your position of a 6000 years old earth is correct or science is right, if you want. Here as I understand is not appropriate.
*
Why would you want to debate me? I barely passed my science subjects in school.

Even my bible says Im foolish. Would you get any satisfaction debating a foolish person? tongue.gif
TSunknown warrior
post Sep 28 2017, 11:09 AM

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QUOTE(SpikeMarlene @ Sep 28 2017, 08:40 AM)
While the Bible does not explicit say the age of the earth is 6000 years, but many notable Christians and even Christian scholars have made that calculation and came to the figure of about 6000 years. Which I agree is being used by atheists to attack Christianity. So the fire did not start with atheist ignorance but it is an often argued position for many Christians who insisted on the biblical age.

https://answersingenesis.org/age-of-the-ear...d-is-the-earth/
Quote,
At this point, the first five days are negligible. Quite a few people have done this calculation using the Masoretic text (which is what most English translations are based on) and with careful attention to the biblical details, they have arrived at the same time frame of about 6,000 years, or about 4000 B.C. Two of the most popular, and perhaps best, are a recent work by Dr. Floyd Jones4 and a much earlier book by Archbishop James Ussher5 (1581–1656). See table 1.

Table 1. Jones and Ussher

Name Age Calculated Reference and Date
Archbishop James Ussher 4004 B.C. The Annals of the World, A.D. 1658
Dr. Floyd Nolan Jones 4004 B.C. The Chronology of the Old Testament, A.D. 1993

The misconception exists that Ussher and Jones were the only ones to arrive at a date of 4000 B.C.; however, this is not the case at all. Jones6 lists several chronologists who have undertaken the task of calculating the age of the earth based on the Bible, and their calculations range from 5501 to 3836 B.C. A few are listed in table 2.
*
The same I would pose them the question as well as to anyone who tells me, The Bible says the age of this world...etc etc.
TSunknown warrior
post Sep 28 2017, 07:41 PM

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QUOTE(BlueTicket @ Sep 28 2017, 05:54 AM)

how come fossil dinosaurs can be found around the world? they r buried for million of years. and according to science, dinosaurs extinct b4 human appear.

would like to know how christians view these as well.

No offense, im not challenging ur belief. just wanna know more.
*
The Bible is easily accessible to anyone, you can read the account in Genesis 1, humans are the last in order of creation.
TSunknown warrior
post Sep 29 2017, 11:38 AM

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Jesus Christ

1 John 1 (NIV) -That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.

I can imagine when the apostle John penned down these words, He remembered his hands had touched Christ. He has seen Christ. Someone who is real.

This passage in scripture affirms, Jesus Christ was never an imagination or a fairy tale as suggested by some people.

Jesus Christ was heard by many people
He was seen by many people
He was touched by hands of many people

The apostle's life was so revolutionized and was so touched by Christ, they wrote about Him and it wasn't by just 1 person by many witnesses.

The God is the Bible was never a concept of someone who lives in lofty Heaven, a sky daddy or an old man in the sky but someone who came into reality in the lives of his creation and seen (witnesses) by many people.

God Bless.

TSunknown warrior
post Sep 30 2017, 08:47 AM

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Why we shouldn't be judgemental

Romans 12:6 (NIV) - We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your faith; if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching,
then teach; if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead, do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully.

God gives each believer different gifts to serve. This is equally true of preachers behind the pulpit. There are preachers who are gifted to dispense Hard Messages and there are preachers who have been gifted in dispensing Graceful messages.

In the Body of Christ, God knows which of his people need hard messages as well as which congregation that needs to graceful messages. As such we shouldn't condemn whichever preachers that has assigned by the Lord.

We have hard preachers like Paul Washer which whom I know some people can be ministered to as well as preachers like Joel Osteen whom some people can be ministered to.

The point is, there is no one and perfect preacher whom God has gifted as perfect, there's not one. God would not do that less any man become proud.

With that being said, we should never judge another fellow believer for the gift that He or She has been bestowed upon.

There is a passage in the Bible that teaches us this. Jesus said this in Luke 9 verse 49 to 50;

Master,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in Your name, and we tried to stop him, because he does not accompany us.” “Do not stop him, Jesus replied, “for whoever is not against you is for you.”

Think what Christ is saying here.



God Bless.

TSunknown warrior
post Oct 1 2017, 12:19 PM

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Not going to bother.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Oct 1 2017, 12:39 PM
Sophiera
post Oct 1 2017, 06:21 PM

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Ini fella sudah reported ke belum?
TSunknown warrior
post Oct 1 2017, 09:45 PM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Oct 1 2017, 06:21 PM)
Ini fella sudah reported ke belum?
*
They come in to insult you personally and go on insult your Faith then proceed to demand that you answer their question.

I just don't know why in this forum there are quite a number of disturbed if not psycho people.

There was a statistic made in the paper last time. We have quite a number of orang gila in this country

For us.....Sign of end times where people are just being evil and they don't realize it. Blind!

Sigh.

PS: if people would just realize, ask nicely, you will get a warranted response. It goes without saying...don't have to teach this. If I have to teach this for "those" people to understand why I couldn't care less to respond...something is seriously wrong with people these days.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Oct 1 2017, 10:29 PM
TSunknown warrior
post Oct 2 2017, 09:13 AM

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No powers can separate you from God loving you

Romans 8:37-39 (NIV) - No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Morning Fellow Believers of Christ Jesus.

Today's verse talks about How the apostle Paul went through Life in threats of Death, in harsh Persecution, in Abundance, in Prosperity and He knows, No matter what people throw at you, No matter what wrong prayers, prayed against you by ignorant fellow believers, No matter what the devil try to deceive you, No matter what good or bad things people do to you, be convinced of 1 thing.

No Powers on Earth can separate you from God's Love. Not even psychotic attacks of people whom behind are works of malicious spirit belonging to the god of this world.

Romans 8:37-39 assures us that because nothing can separate or caused God to stop loving you, when you know God loves you, you can also be assured God looks after his own children. Some people may accuse you of many things but know that..the opinions of Man is not important. People may call you all kind of hurtful names but God will never do things like this. Only Jealous and insecure people do.

I have been through persecution and through rough time, some will know this to be true and some expect that perhaps this thread will be given up in hopelessness but by God's grace I'm here to encourage you and to strengthen those whose Faith are wavering...God loves you.

No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God Bless you and your family.


This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Oct 2 2017, 09:13 AM
BlueTicket
post Oct 3 2017, 09:19 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Sep 28 2017, 07:41 PM)
The Bible is easily accessible to anyone, you can read the account in Genesis 1, humans are the last in order of creation.
*
I read it on internet.

Yes, Human is created last but god created the world in six days. So if dinosaur got created first day also wont reach million years. Correct?

my second question, dinosaur oredi extinct before human appear. but before adam and eve sinned, suppose no death right? then how come dinosaur extinct?

and pls let me know if u wan me to pm u directly. as i said, i ask this questions not to troll ppl here but wan to know more. but if my post draw trolls, then i dun mind to pm u guys directly.
TSunknown warrior
post Oct 3 2017, 09:26 AM

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Why did Christ curse the Fig Leaves?

Mark 11:21 (NIV) - Peter remembered and said to Jesus, "Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!"

Morning Fellow Christians.

Actually I have another devotion in mind on "Christians having a wrong spirit" but for the sake of non-Christians asking a recent question that beg an answer, here it is.

There are 3 revelations here.

First revelation is found in Genesis 3, when Adam and Eve fell, they covered themselves with leaves. But in detail, Genesis 3:7 mentioned that they covered themselves in Fig leaves. In the beginning God clothed Adam and Eve with his Bright Glory and they were not ashamed. God provided this in his Grace. But After the Fall, they felt shame and tried to cover themselves. This speaks of Man's Self Effort in trying to cover up and trying to provide for themselves. If you follow my devotions you will know God hates self righteousness and everything about Man's self strength. Why? Because Self will Destroy Man.

Hence when Christ cursed the Fig Leaves it is also symbolic He will put an end to the problem of Self because He came to provide the true covering which Man had in the beginning with God. (John 17:22).

Second revelation talks about Prayer. Sometimes when we pray, we don't see the result. When Jesus cursed the Fig Tree, its root died immediately. Nobody could see that because the root was hidden in the ground. And the result came the next morning when the Fig Tree withered. Jesus is teaching us to be patience and believe when we pray. Hence why the narrative of prayer is included in the story of the Fig Leaves in verse 22 to 26 of Mark 11.

The point of the Fig Leaf with regards to prayer is to believe that it will happen, that is why Christ demonstrated this and it happened.

The third Revelation is found in Luke 13:1-9. It's talking about God reaching out to Israel (Fig tree speaks of Israel spiritual life, Vineyard speaks God's chosen own). It is symbolic. The Man who fertilize speaks of Christ. God has been reaching out to Israel and they rejected Him. If you have spiritual eyes to see..God has been patience. God reasoned, for 3 years which could also symbolically mean 3000 years, If they keep rejecting Him, they will perish and yet Christ petition for 1 more year. God is not willing for any of them to perish.

So what is the connection to Christ cursing the Fig Leaves?

After the Fall, Man have been trying everything in self effort to provide, to justify, to cover themselves as how Adam & Eve did when they fell. Let me tell you something. Whatever Man tries to do in their self effort, there will never be fruits because All things in creation has fallen and Man lives in a fallen world. People who continue to reject Christ (God) will be cut off when Day of Judgement comes.

The Bible specifically says, Apart from Christ, we can do nothing and whatever we do, will not bear Fruit. (John 15:5) So the revelation of Christ cursing the Fig Tree here means that the struggle of self ends with Christ. Everyone who receive Christ and when the believer depends on Christ, God promise there will be fruits. The Point is; All Self must end. And the Bible mentions We have died when we accept Christ. Our New Identity is in Christ. Until we walk in that revelation, the fruit will be slow. But when Self Dies...Life in God thrives!

I pray that God will give you this revelation.

God Bless you and your family.



thomasthai
post Oct 3 2017, 10:23 AM

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QUOTE(BlueTicket @ Oct 3 2017, 09:19 AM)
I read it on internet.

Yes, Human is created last but god created the world in six days. So if dinosaur  got created first day also wont reach million years. Correct?

my second question, dinosaur oredi extinct before human appear. but before adam and eve sinned, suppose no death right? then how come dinosaur extinct?

and pls let me know if u wan me to pm u directly. as i said, i ask this questions not to troll ppl here but wan to know more. but if my post draw trolls, then i dun mind to pm u guys directly.
*
You are making an assumption that the atheist scientists' conclusion that dinosaurs are extinct 65 million years ago are an absolute truth.

Theist scientists look at the same fossil records and come to the opposite conclusion.

I'm not going to pretend that I'm an expert in anything, it's pointless to keep arguing back and forth about things nobody can prove.

The word 'day' in Genesis account on creation is the literal day used in other parts of the scriptures, there is no evidence to suggest otherwise, and I don't have a problem with that.

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post Oct 3 2017, 10:53 AM

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QUOTE(BlueTicket @ Oct 3 2017, 09:19 AM)
I read it on internet.

Yes, Human is created last but god created the world in six days. So if dinosaur  got created first day also wont reach million years. Correct?

my second question, dinosaur oredi extinct before human appear. but before adam and eve sinned, suppose no death right? then how come dinosaur extinct?

and pls let me know if u wan me to pm u directly. as i said, i ask this questions not to troll ppl here but wan to know more. but if my post draw trolls, then i dun mind to pm u guys directly.
*
Don't worry about the trolls, the Mods n Staff have been quite efficient and helpful in keeping this thread intact. You'll noticed that some post that challenges our Faith stays and is never deleted. Why? Is it because we can answer those questions? Answer is no. Those post stay Because like you, they are genuine questions that comes from wanting to know. Whether we can answer or not is beside the point.

The ones that gets deleted are the saja want to cari pasal and want to cause trouble. Those we don't tolerate. We know who are the genuines and who are the trolls. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure who are they.

The Bible is never meant to be forced...You must follow any person's interpretation, It's left to your prerogative but of course there are guidelines.

It is in my opinion, we need to respect Science's finding as they're neutral and they are also what God has given and enable Man to be and to understand. You should know there are many Christian Scientist even in the early age making remarkable discovery more than hundreds of years ago.

The only thing we reject are the point that assert there wasn't creation but a big bang or whatever people purported. That will be hard to disprove. Even Atheist have taken up the position that the universe has always existed in replace of God has always existed outside of time.

As it is you know there is Old Earth Creation as well as Young Earth Creation. We leave this to your discretion. You can check it out in the web how the Word "Day" can also fit in the meaning of "Age".

And to me personally, does this shakes my Faith? Answer = it doesn't. Why? Because it's immaterial the essence of the message in the Bible. The Bible is never in mind for God to communicate to Man as a Science Journal. Hence why there's so many things that's irrelevant to the finding of Science.

But it is the Truth? For Christians, it is. We simply believe because nobody can for a fact prove the beginning. We in a way work backwards. If God is real and true, then we believe what God says also is true. I don't really care and neither am I afraid for anyone to tell me of being foolish for this. I simply don't care for the opinions of man when it comes to be pitted with God's word because to me the Word of God and God himself is far more real than the any sayings of Man and whatever Man can ever give. This comes from experiential reality not some random gibberish saying for the sake of defending.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Oct 3 2017, 11:06 AM
Sophiera
post Oct 3 2017, 04:03 PM

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Hey my bf asked a question some time ago. He was wondering if the story of Adam's creation is symbolic. He reasoned the following:

1. Humans looked very different in the past.
2. If the dust from earth construction is symbolic, is it possible for God to evolve protohumans over time?

I said, manaboleh.jpg. It had to be a specific creation. The Bible states it very clear that Man is an image of God. Apes and proto apes are not. Also the breath is important because it means we're the only creation with the direct Spirit from God.

Then he asked about the Neathendals and Cro Magnons. Those are considered separate from Homo Sapiens a.k.a modern man. And I said, those could be a different race and not a different species. Like how an Asian look very different compared to a Mat Salleh and an African.

And one may never know if the "protohuman" is actually human, or an early species of apes. Well for evolutionists there is no distinction, so don't think they'll consider it that critical of a question.

Oh by the way the earliest humans remains were found in... Greece! Not Africa anymore. That news completely changed the migration theory paths.

How does the Bible explain these findings? By saying Adam and Eve are just symbols of human tribes is a problem in itself. It's not consistent with the rest of the story.

This post has been edited by Sophiera: Oct 3 2017, 04:06 PM
Sophiera
post Oct 3 2017, 04:13 PM

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I don't trust the whole protohuman model since the beginning. Mana tahu they found a human with an ape skull. And the human lost their original head somewhere else. Primitive tribes wear animal skulls often.

If it was something obvious like a bull or a ram, it would be categorized as a helmet. But the moment you put an ape... A new 'species' discovered. Aduhai.

Also by now people are speculating that some dinosaurs actually have feathers instead of scales. Much more like giant birds.

bobowyc
post Oct 3 2017, 08:31 PM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Oct 3 2017, 04:03 PM)
Hey my bf asked a question some time ago. He was wondering if the story of Adam's creation is symbolic. He reasoned the following:

1. Humans looked very different in the past.
2. If the dust from earth construction is symbolic, is it possible for God to evolve protohumans over time?

I said, manaboleh.jpg. It had to be a specific creation. The Bible states it very clear that Man is an image of God. Apes and proto apes are not. Also the breath is important because it means we're the only creation with the direct Spirit from God.

Then he asked about the Neathendals and Cro Magnons. Those are considered separate from Homo Sapiens a.k.a modern man. And I said, those could be a different race and not a different species. Like how an Asian look very different compared to a Mat Salleh and an African.

And one may never know if the "protohuman" is actually human, or an early species of apes. Well for evolutionists there is no distinction, so don't think they'll consider it that critical of a question.

Oh by the way the earliest humans remains were found in... Greece! Not Africa anymore. That news completely changed the migration theory paths.

How does the Bible explain these findings? By saying Adam and Eve are just symbols of human tribes is a problem in itself. It's not consistent with the rest of the story.
*
You forgot about the Flood. During Noah's time God flooded the entire world, hence killing all the humans. Except Noah and his family and his son's wives. So we are all now related to either one of his sons. The protohuman etc i dont know. Dont ask me. I lazy google. hahaha..

Just sharing my thought. xD
Sophiera
post Oct 3 2017, 09:20 PM

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QUOTE(bobowyc @ Oct 3 2017, 08:31 PM)
You forgot about the Flood. During Noah's time God flooded the entire world, hence killing all the humans. Except Noah and his family and his son's wives. So we are all now related to either one of his sons. The protohuman etc i dont know. Dont ask me. I lazy google. hahaha..

Just sharing my thought. xD
*
Oh ya hor. You're right, there's Noah too.

The genetic diversity from God's original creation had split off into all shapes, colours, and sizes today. Yet we're not alien from each other.
TheEngineer
post Oct 3 2017, 09:22 PM

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QUOTE(BlueTicket @ Oct 3 2017, 09:19 AM)
I read it on internet.

Yes, Human is created last but god created the world in six days. So if dinosaur  got created first day also wont reach million years. Correct?

my second question, dinosaur oredi extinct before human appear. but before adam and eve sinned, suppose no death right? then how come dinosaur extinct?

and pls let me know if u wan me to pm u directly. as i said, i ask this questions not to troll ppl here but wan to know more. but if my post draw trolls, then i dun mind to pm u guys directly.
*
Hi,

I think that dinosaurs are a moot point.

Kindly view this : http://www.atlanteanconspiracy.com/2015/09...er-existed.html

The world is being set up for a strong delusion (through science) after the harpazo of the church happens. Alien invasion being one of them, through the globe Earth theory.

Blessings
bobowyc
post Oct 3 2017, 09:35 PM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Oct 3 2017, 09:20 PM)
Oh ya hor. You're right, there's Noah too.

The genetic diversity from God's original creation had split off into all shapes, colours, and sizes today. Yet we're not alien from each other.
*
Yah. biggrin.gif
Sophiera
post Oct 4 2017, 04:19 PM

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Hey UW, I thought something about your fig leaf devotional. If all self-effort is frowned upon, does it also mean secular studies of psychology?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4GNDax08XvQ

Like macam ini? This person also does very interesting analysis about the Bible. I have to keep reminding myself that it's studied not from a holy spirit perspective.

Was super accurate about Cain and Abel though. The entire lecture is 2 hours long. But he got it right that Cain killed Abel out of bitterness. Did it to spite the ideal and God Himself.

https://youtu.be/44f3mxcsI50
TSunknown warrior
post Oct 4 2017, 04:29 PM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Oct 4 2017, 04:19 PM)
Hey UW, I thought something about your fig leaf devotional. If all self-effort is frowned upon, does it also mean secular studies of psychology?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4GNDax08XvQ

Like macam ini? This person also does very interesting analysis about the Bible. I have to keep reminding myself that it's studied not from a holy spirit perspective.

Was super accurate about Cain and Abel though. The entire lecture is 2 hours long. But he got it right that Cain killed Abel out of bitterness. Did it to spite the ideal and God Himself.

https://youtu.be/44f3mxcsI50
*
I'll watch it when I have the time.

Regarding Cain and Abel's offering, did the video mention why one's offering was accepted by God while the other rejected?



This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Oct 4 2017, 04:38 PM
Sophiera
post Oct 4 2017, 05:22 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Oct 4 2017, 04:29 PM)
I'll watch it when I have the time.

Regarding Cain and Abel's offering, did the video mention  why one's offering was accepted by God while the other rejected?
*
From what i watched, yup. If i remember right it's because Cain's bitter attitude disrespected the sacrifice. Abel is the opposite.

Since Cain cannot deal with the pain that he fell short of the ideal, he destroyed it by killing Abel. That summed up the human race. The lecture highlights the mentality of revolutionists and our own 'cain' of our hearts.

Didn't watch the other bible vids. I did listen to his videos specifically targeting madness of SJW propaganda.

Oh i heard the clip about Noah too. You know the one where one of the sons mocked his father's weakness? Peterson sees it as a symbol of criticizing anything with the 'Spirit of the Father'. It can be an institution or other systems that nurtured society. Or it can be authority.

Each have their own flaws and vulnerabilities. Like nakedness. If you openly disrespect, mock, and insult anything that acts as a 'father', you inevitably end up as a slave. It can be a slave to ideology like what happened to the Communist era. Or they become slaves to their own nonsense behaviour.

Interesting interpretations.

This post has been edited by Sophiera: Oct 4 2017, 05:23 PM
TSunknown warrior
post Oct 5 2017, 08:49 AM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Oct 4 2017, 04:19 PM)
Hey UW, I thought something about your fig leaf devotional. If all self-effort is frowned upon, does it also mean secular studies of psychology?
*
Self Effort here is always in the context of bringing whatever of ourselves to God for justification, for approval, to please God. Things like that.

I'm not talking about social aid like psychological help.

but for me personally, the trust for well being of a person has got to be in the Lord rather than in the institution of Man but it doesn't mean we as Christians cannot go for psychological help if there is a need, same thing with Doctors. We should go to them by all means but the trust for healing whether physical or emotional has to be in God because everything instituted by Man in this world is in fallen state whereas God's word isn't fallen. It is eternally and consistently true hence the reliability for physical or emotional health in God is much higher.

If you think about it, whatever help that is of this world, be it medicine or psychological isn't perfect, even if there are breakthrough medicines, there could side effects whereas God's word does not have any.

TSunknown warrior
post Oct 5 2017, 10:25 AM

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http://www.ichretien.com/actualite/un-demi...-dieu-4447.html

Hundreds of Thousands
Gather in the Streets of
Ukraine to Praise the
Name of Jesus , after the president finally gave liberty to preach the gospel which was banned for many years ..


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desmond2020
post Oct 5 2017, 02:45 PM

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Oct 5 2017, 03:41 PM
This post has been deleted by unknown warrior because: Trouble Maker, lack of manners.

desmond2020
post Oct 5 2017, 03:59 PM

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Oct 5 2017, 04:00 PM
This post has been deleted by unknown warrior because: Troublemaker, Saja want to cari baseless pasal

desmond2020
post Oct 6 2017, 12:57 PM

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Folks


He insinuates that Ukraine, a country with majority orthodox Christians actually has a standing ban on gospel.


This is just make me laugh non stop.



This is ridiculous and whole lie in complete package
TSunknown warrior
post Oct 6 2017, 02:26 PM

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You guys can read it here
https://www.facebook.com/groups/86247412380...28575307194387/

Here is the comment;

Staphay Leo
God is good but y was preaching d gospel banned?

Leah Boudreaux
They were celebrating that they were no longer under a communist rule that prevented them from freely living for God.

(Worthy News) - The streets of Kiev filled with songs of praise and thanks as 500,000 evangelical, Ukrainian Christians gathered to celebrated the 500th anniversary of the protestant reformation.

"Many traveled from all four provinces there just to be a part of that celebration, to thank God for the freedom to worship, to thank God for the freedom to preach the Gospel in their country, and to celebrate God's faithfulness," Sergey Rakhuba with Mission Eurasia told Mission Network News.

The gathering came after Ukrainian president Petro Poroshenko signed an order recognizing the anniversary of the reformation.



http://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/cwn/2017/septe...e-name-of-jesus.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Oct 6 2017, 02:45 PM
TSunknown warrior
post Oct 6 2017, 02:31 PM

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Explanation above.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Oct 6 2017, 03:06 PM
myway1985
post Oct 6 2017, 03:05 PM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Oct 3 2017, 04:03 PM)
Hey my bf asked a question some time ago. He was wondering if the story of Adam's creation is symbolic. He reasoned the following:

1. Humans looked very different in the past.
2. If the dust from earth construction is symbolic, is it possible for God to evolve protohumans over time?

I said, manaboleh.jpg. It had to be a specific creation. The Bible states it very clear that Man is an image of God. Apes and proto apes are not. Also the breath is important because it means we're the only creation with the direct Spirit from God.

Then he asked about the Neathendals and Cro Magnons. Those are considered separate from Homo Sapiens a.k.a modern man. And I said, those could be a different race and not a different species. Like how an Asian look very different compared to a Mat Salleh and an African.

And one may never know if the "protohuman" is actually human, or an early species of apes. Well for evolutionists there is no distinction, so don't think they'll consider it that critical of a question.

Oh by the way the earliest humans remains were found in... Greece! Not Africa anymore. That news completely changed the migration theory paths.

How does the Bible explain these findings? By saying Adam and Eve are just symbols of human tribes is a problem in itself. It's not consistent with the rest of the story.
*
in english bible it state adam.. but in hebrews.. it actually means a human race...n bible did mention giants wat
Sophiera
post Oct 6 2017, 07:00 PM

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I would like to open the next thread with updated guidelines using /r/Christianity and /r/TrueChristian as a base:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/wiki/xp#wiki_foreword
https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueChristian/wiki/index/rules

I would also like to include one extra rule from /r/TrueChristian: the introduction of 'christians only' requests.

3) Do not infringe upon the [Christians only] tagging rule. Participation requires affirmation of the Nicene Creed. Attempts to circumvent this rule may result in a ban without warning.

If someone wants to talk to a Christian, or even a person specifically, anyone unrelated shouldn't be jumping in.

Now I'll wait for votes. If you think another person is a better mod, please propose.
SUSzamorin
post Oct 6 2017, 09:50 PM

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Hey, just checking if you Christian folks have an answer to this ancient puzzle:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”


― Epicurus
shioks
post Oct 6 2017, 11:23 PM

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QUOTE(Sophiera @ Oct 6 2017, 07:00 PM)
I would like to open the next thread with updated guidelines using /r/Christianity and /r/TrueChristian as a base:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/wiki/xp#wiki_foreword
https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueChristian/wiki/index/rules

I would also like to include one extra rule from /r/TrueChristian: the introduction of 'christians only' requests.

3) Do not infringe upon the [Christians only] tagging rule. Participation requires affirmation of the Nicene Creed. Attempts to circumvent this rule may result in a ban without warning.

If someone wants to talk to a Christian, or even a person specifically, anyone unrelated shouldn't be jumping in.

Now I'll wait for votes. If you think another person is a better mod, please propose.
*
You are definitely not a suitable candidate as we know very well you are staunch follower of UW preaching.
shioks
post Oct 7 2017, 12:20 AM

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QUOTE(TheRealist @ Oct 6 2017, 09:24 PM)
Actually the fact that this thread was even closed speaks volumes. anyway did not hear from you for a long time. I guess you know who I am.
*
I don't know who you are and won't want to guess.

I have not been surfing here as been really busy and don't bother following this thread. I just stumbled upon the closed thread yesterday as I was browsing Lowyat Forum while on public holidays. Otherwise, no point for me to specifically browsing this thread as it is waste of my time.
TSunknown warrior
post Oct 9 2017, 08:54 AM

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I just want to say something.

I think I did nothing wrong. What I posted was correct. Reason why I deleted Desmond2020 post is because I did not want any argument. But then I take it as my fault I didn't give him a chance to voice out his opinion for the reason he tried to cause aggravation the last time hence I take it that he never had any genuine intention for the fellowship but to just trigger others as his per his usual characteristic.

You all know I don't personally attack anyone. Many of you do. Let be honest.
You make fun of me, you slander me and yet I never retaliate against you. I forgave you.

but time and time again, this charade goes on and on and of course I'm human, I can feel discourage at time. It is during my down moments I lack patience.

Before I came in, Christian Fellowship was dead.

I came in and revive it. We had good time. But some of you never understood for the reason of the fellowship, in fact there are couple of you who question it's purpose you say it's useless.

But I noticed it has help some christians who are lost.

You want to destroy the fellowship, fine by me. Just know that you are attacking your own brother and sister in Christ.

I find that...is something wrong. And you don't realize it.




shioks
post Oct 10 2017, 10:03 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Oct 9 2017, 08:54 AM)
I just want to say something.

I think I did nothing wrong. What I posted was correct. Reason why I deleted Desmond2020 post is because I did not want any argument. But then I take it as my fault I didn't give him a chance to voice out his opinion for the reason he tried to cause aggravation the last time hence I take it that he never had any genuine intention for the fellowship but to just trigger others as his per his usual characteristic.

You all know I don't personally attack anyone. Many of you do. Let be honest.
You make fun of me, you slander me and yet I never retaliate against you. I forgave you.

but time and time again, this charade goes on and on and of course I'm human, I can feel discourage at time. It is during my down moments I lack patience.

Before I came in, Christian Fellowship was dead.

I came in and revive it. We had good time. But some of you never understood for the reason of the fellowship, in fact there are couple of you who question it's purpose you say it's useless.

But I noticed it has help some christians who are lost.

You want to destroy the fellowship, fine by me. Just know that you are attacking your own brother and sister in Christ.

I find that...is something wrong. And you don't realize it.
*
For supposedly a pastor to write this kind of statement say lot about your spiritual realms.
TSunknown warrior
post Oct 11 2017, 12:28 AM

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I've never disturb your life shioks, but you have laughed, you've mocked me, you insult me.

I let it go. For me this is how I submit to the Lord. But for you, But seeing you have resentment towards me even though I don't know you at all in life..then I guess let us settle here once and for all.

You have a problem.

Prove to me then, what have I done wrong.

If you are right, I will relent and apologize.

But if you are unable to prove anything then you owe me an apology, shioks.

I rather have closure and live in peace then for you to keep on attacking me unnecessary.

Go ahead. Spill it out, what is it?

BTW you can stop your hypocrisy about not interested in this thread, you can say this thread is useless but you still came in.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Oct 11 2017, 12:43 AM
TSunknown warrior
post Oct 11 2017, 12:48 AM

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Don't understand why "the realist" / Sylar111 is so bitter.





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NicoRobinz
post Oct 11 2017, 06:18 AM

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QUOTE(zamorin @ Oct 6 2017, 09:50 PM)
Hey, just checking if you Christian folks have an answer to this ancient puzzle:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
― Epicurus
*
Based on my understanding, God is able and willing to prevent evil, but He has also given free will to His creatures.

When His creatures messed up everything with their decisions, this doesn't mean God isn't able to prevent it from happening. When God lets it happen doesn't mean He is not willing to prevent it. He did after all, sent Jesus to fix everything.

Just my 2 cents from reading Bible. Maybe someone who has better knowledge is able to provide you a better answer.

This post has been edited by NicoRobinz: Oct 11 2017, 06:19 AM
SUSzamorin
post Oct 11 2017, 08:40 AM

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QUOTE(NicoRobinz @ Oct 11 2017, 06:18 AM)
Based on my understanding, God is able and willing to prevent evil, but He has also given free will to His creatures.

When His creatures messed up everything with their decisions, this doesn't mean God isn't able to prevent it from happening. When God lets it happen doesn't mean He is not willing to prevent it. He did after all, sent Jesus to fix everything.

Just my 2 cents from reading Bible. Maybe someone who has better knowledge is able to provide you a better answer.
*
Problem is, even suppose if he gives you free will but does nothing when using that "free will" creates evil, then he is still malevolent. biggrin.gif
NicoRobinz
post Oct 11 2017, 08:57 AM

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QUOTE(zamorin @ Oct 11 2017, 08:40 AM)
Problem is, even suppose if he gives you free will but does nothing when using that "free will" creates evil, then he is still malevolent. biggrin.gif
*
God gave free will to his creations and it's up to his creations to do evil or good. How is he malevolent? If he had only allowed his creatures to do good, then his creatures weren't given free will, were they?


This post has been edited by NicoRobinz: Oct 11 2017, 08:59 AM
TSunknown warrior
post Oct 11 2017, 09:16 AM

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QUOTE(NicoRobinz @ Oct 11 2017, 08:57 AM)
God gave free will to his creations and it's up to his creations to do evil or good. How is he malevolent? If he had only allowed his creatures to do good, then his creatures weren't given free will, were they?
*
Explain the fall of Man, how evil came in and how the Cross is something that God did. That answers the accusation God did nothing.




SUSzamorin
post Oct 11 2017, 11:02 AM

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QUOTE(NicoRobinz @ Oct 11 2017, 08:57 AM)
God gave free will to his creations and it's up to his creations to do evil or good. How is he malevolent? If he had only allowed his creatures to do good, then his creatures weren't given free will, were they?
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Like I said, when one does nothing when evil happens when he can do something...that is the definition of malevolent. So "free will" is irrelevant.
SUSzamorin
post Oct 11 2017, 11:03 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Oct 11 2017, 09:16 AM)
Explain the fall of Man, how evil came in and how the Cross is something that God did. That answers the accusation God did nothing.
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It answers nothing. Plus anything without evidence is just conjecture.

This post has been edited by zamorin: Oct 11 2017, 11:05 AM
NicoRobinz
post Oct 11 2017, 11:08 AM

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QUOTE(zamorin @ Oct 11 2017, 11:02 AM)
Like I said, when one does nothing when evil happens when he can do something...that is the definition of malevolent. So "free will" is irrelevant.
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But you have to understand the state of our current world is because of humans' own doing.

For example, why would someone blame God for doing nothing when it's humans who keep polluting the earth until it no longer supports lives? He did, however, sent Jesus to fix up everything. Just the time hasn't come yet for his second coming which everything will be fixed and renewed.

This post has been edited by NicoRobinz: Oct 11 2017, 11:09 AM
TSunknown warrior
post Oct 11 2017, 11:08 AM

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QUOTE(zamorin @ Oct 11 2017, 11:03 AM)
It answers nothing. Plus anything without evidence is just conjecture.
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It answers nothing for you because you do not understand the purpose of the cross.
SUSzamorin
post Oct 11 2017, 11:14 AM

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QUOTE(NicoRobinz @ Oct 11 2017, 11:08 AM)
But you have to understand the state of our current world is because of humans' own doing.

For example, why would someone blame God for doing nothing when it's humans who keep polluting the earth until it no longer supports lives? He did, however, sent Jesus to fix up everything. Just the time hasn't come yet for his second coming which everything will be fixed and renewed.
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But that doesn't answer the question of "malevolence". Even if the state of our current world is because of humans' own doing, then the question of omnipotence becomes false.

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