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 LYN Christian Fellowship V13 (Group), ALL about Jesus Christ.

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desmond2020
post Jul 3 2017, 09:09 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 1 2017, 09:26 AM)


sceptics like atheists are welcome to come and witness.
30th June, 1July & 2nd July at Kelana Jaya stadium
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This Maldonado is co founder of king Jesus ministry and mega church in Miami?


Not that I don't believe God miracle to heal, just that I don't believe it will come via a fake teacher who called himself 'apostle' and preach a rather extreme version of prosperity gospel.

This post has been edited by desmond2020: Jul 3 2017, 09:12 AM
desmond2020
post Jul 3 2017, 09:28 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 3 2017, 09:13 AM)
What did he say about prosperity?
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For example he preach you can 'activate' God's word and the power of 'redemption' by honoring God with Your first fruit of income. He said, fasting of the first fruit has the power of multiplication... every time you honour God first.... God will say that his money, his finance is protected because he honor the God first


Which is entirely unbiblical
desmond2020
post Jul 3 2017, 09:42 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 3 2017, 09:35 AM)
Okay, then.....What is Proverbs 3:9-10?
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I believe you need to read the whole chapter

The emphasis is to fear God and seek wisdom


My son, do not forget my teaching, but let your heart keep my commandments, for length of days and years of life and peace they will add to you. Let not steadfast love and faithfulness forsake you; bind them around your neck; write them on the tablet of your heart. So you will find favor and good success in the sight of God and man. Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths. Be not wise in your own eyes; fear the Lord , and turn away from evil. It will be healing to your flesh and refreshment to your bones. Honor the Lord with your wealth and with the firstfruits of all your produce; then your barns will be filled with plenty, and your vats will be bursting with wine. My son, do not despise the Lord 's discipline or be weary of his reproof, for the Lord reproves him whom he loves, as a father the son in whom he delights. Blessed is the one who finds wisdom, and the one who gets understanding, for the gain from her is better than gain from silver and her profit better than gold. She is more precious than jewels, and nothing you desire can compare with her. Long life is in her right hand; in her left hand are riches and honor. Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace. She is a tree of life to those who lay hold of her; those who hold her fast are called blessed. The Lord by wisdom founded the earth; by understanding he established the heavens; by his knowledge the deeps broke open, and the clouds drop down the dew. My son, do not lose sight of these— keep sound wisdom and discretion, and they will be life for your soul and adornment for your neck. Then you will walk on your way securely, and your foot will not stumble. If you lie down, you will not be afraid; when you lie down, your sleep will be sweet. Do not be afraid of sudden terror or of the ruin of the wicked, when it comes, for the Lord will be your confidence and will keep your foot from being caught. Do not withhold good from those to whom it is due, when it is in your power to do it. Do not say to your neighbor, "Go, and come again, tomorrow I will give it"—when you have it with you. Do not plan evil against your neighbor, who dwells trustingly beside you. Do not contend with a man for no reason, when he has done you no harm. Do not envy a man of violence and do not choose any of his ways, for the devious person is an abomination to the Lord , but the upright are in his confidence. The Lord 's curse is on the house of the wicked, but he blesses the dwelling of the righteous. Toward the scorners he is scornful, but to the humble he gives favor. The wise will inherit honor, but fools get disgrace.
Proverbs 3:1‭-‬35 ESV
http://bible.com/59/pro.3.1-35.ESV
desmond2020
post Jul 3 2017, 09:52 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 3 2017, 09:46 AM)
Correct we need to fear God and seek wisdom, isn't this proverb a wisdom? Even verse 9-10 of chapter 3? You cannot disregard what it says there.....

For me I don't pick and choose which one, I take all of it. But even then..Verse 9 and 10 states....

that God promise to supply more than enough...to be filled with plenty...that is multiplication, no matter how I want to twist or turn it's definition, that is what it says.

Are we at the liberty to choose which verse apply and which doesn't?
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I believe you get the priority wrong because we should fear God and based on principle that everything we own is from God. So when we do offering we merely give back portion of what God give us.


Jesus teach us to give and hope nothing in return


And therefore cornerstone is to fear God as if you fear God you wouldn't hope for return from you offering by treating God like you atm machine


Blessing of God is always bountiful but it is not always in form of money




desmond2020
post Jul 3 2017, 05:16 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 3 2017, 09:54 AM)
Which verse did Jesus say that?

Did He say that when we give towards our fellow neighbors?enemies(human) or towards God?

As far as I can find...most likely you took this from

Luke 6:35 (NIV) - But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.

The irony is....Jesus tells us to expect nothing from a fellow human being (granted) but Jesus never says to expect nothing from God. In fact the irony is that God will reward us great. Can you tell that to God almighty, that you expect nothing from Him when this verse says "Great will be the reward"?

I think this fearing God in tying to expect nothing from God is like worshipping a fearful God which is not how Jesus depict as a Father. The Father that Jesus revealed is one who celebrates with a fatten calf and put shows and ring on our finger as his child.

Don't get angry with me but I think this doctrine of "fearing God and expect nothing from God" is not biblical because the Bible tells otherwise and if you say we should fear God then we need to accept what God says in Proverbs 3:9-10. Else it's a contradiction.

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I also understand your concern where we need to have a proper reverence for God and not treat God like an ATM machine but if God's own word says He will cause our barns to overflow...who are we to reject God's own saying? You're like saying we need to fear God and yet reject his word of promise as well which is a contradiction, imo.

For me, a proper reverence for God is also to accept his blessings, acknowledging we need it and not reject it because we think we can handle life. God never says to expect nothing from Him, Jesus was careful to point it that we are to expect nothing in return from our enemies...Never from God. We need to be clear and accurate on this.

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Well, let me show you something I read which I think is pretty reasonable


quote



Heresy = Bible verses twisted just a couple of degrees off center



If someone desires to give the church a certain percentage of their net or gross income, I honor that as their right and privilege. As for me, I promote that all Christians should give generously and cheerfully.



But first, a full disclosure – I believe that tithing was an Old Covenant rite by which about 23% of goods, usually agricultural products, were given to God for the maintenance of the priests, for the poor. I see no comparable requirement for the church, which is supposed to “honor” its leaders (1 Tim 5:17) and make voluntary pledges to special projects (Paul’s Jerusalem Fund). [1]



I have no argument with tithers so long as they have no argument with me. And I’m not speaking here about legalistic tithing or carnal non-tithing.



But in the past few weeks I have found people preaching what must be held up and labeled perversions of the gospel and of the practice of tithing. I’m not even talking about the protection racketeers like Benny Hinn, Creflo Dollar, and their ilk on TBN, who constantly pound home the gospel of writing a check to their ministry. I’m speaking of heresy – a term I use infrequently and, I hope, with precision. Let’s look at three examples of Tithe-as-Heresy:



Example One: Non-Tithers are Under God’s Curse



Usually people try to dodge around the implications of what they are teaching, but here’s a source that expressed itself frankly:





If you don’t pay tithe, the Bible says you are robbing God and you are under a curse. This curse cannot be removed by your good works or the fact that you are born again. You can only reverse this curse if you start paying tithe. Tithe is the only key to prosperity and God’s blessing. The Bible is very clear about this and there is no way around it. [2]



They add a point that helps the church’s fiscal status, should the pastor turns out to be a wolf:





When Pastors misuse your tithe, do not lose faith in God. Continue to pay your tithe…



This should be a comfort to Creflo Dollar, given the regular claims that he plunders his ministry’s offerings.



The problem is that, if someone is going to apply words such as “curse” to non-tithers, they should give them their full weight. Being under God’s curse does not mean “you won’t prosper as you should”. It means he has condemned you, damned you. (See Matt 25:41; 1 Cor 16:22; Gal 1:8-9; Heb 6:8; Rev 22:3; Rom 9:3 – accursed by God = “cut off from Christ”).



Which leads us to our next permutation.



Example Two: Non-Tithers Inevitably Go to Hell



In an earlier post I mentioned Angélica Zambrano, a young woman from Ecuador who claimed to have visited heaven and hell and brought back information about who ended up where. [3] In this modern-day Dante’s Inferno, Angélica found out that non-tithers all end up in the flames. One young man told her:





“When you return to Earth, tell all those people who don’t want to give their tithes and offerings, not to steal from the Lord, otherwise, they’ll wind up in Hell, and no thief will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. I knew the Holy Word, now I regret it and realize I robbed the Lord.” (Malachi 3:8) “Tell the people when they give to God, give the Lord with true love.” (2 Cor 9:7) This man kept pleading, “Lord forgive me”, and the Lord replied, “It is too late, there is no opportunity for you.” [4]



So, salvation is not through faith in Christ, but through Christ plus tithing.



Example Three: Tithing is the Gospel



This is the most horrific I have heard, but the month isn’t over yet and something worse might show up. “Apostle” Guillermo Maldonado of Miami [5] teaches that the “original sin” in the garden was the failure of Adam and Eve to tithe. Let me quote parts of what he says, to show that I am not imagining this:



“The original sin of Eden was stealing the tithe…The tree of the knowledge of good and evil represents or symbolizes the tithe…And God said to him, Don’t touch what is mine…Everything else you can eat, you can enjoy…In the Garden is where man became indebted to God…The tithe is what we owe to God, it’s the debt when Adam ate, a debt began, so when you give the tithe, you aren’t doing anything by paying a debt.” (He goes on to say that God won’t bless people if they only tithe, they have to give more than that to even begin to be financially blessed).



This is about as far from the gospel as we could go – we would have to rewrite Paul’s teaching to “even as by one man’s failure to tithe, we all sinned, so by Apostle Maldonado coming to tell us to tithe, we will live.”



The word “heresy” should not be applied to tithers or non-tithers, not if they follow the gospel. As a professor explained it to us many years ago, denominational distinctives are what distinguish Christian from Christian; heresy is what distinguishes Christian from not-Christian. The three examples above are not-Christian, not-gospel, not-True God. Most heretics you run across quote the Bible plenty. But when they twist its meaning just a few degrees of dead center, voilà, you have a whole new religion.



Again, if you believe that giving a certain percentage to God is right for you, then do so, gladly. And if not, don’t – that is your right. But let us never let anyone take a doctrine like tithing as a means of financial extortion; spiritual abuse; or sacrilege against God.


desmond2020
post Jul 3 2017, 07:51 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 3 2017, 07:43 PM)
I'm quite familiar with such writings and critics and I've studied quite a bit on tithing. Tithing was never just an old covenant rites. It is something that even Jesus sanctions in the New Testament (because Him being God), He is the one who instituted it. As for the matter of the curse, if you study the Bible...even in the New Testament, God calls money as Unrighteous Mammon. DO you know why?
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I see

then we have nothing to discuss further if you can ignore what the like Maldonado has done to gospel.
desmond2020
post Jul 4 2017, 12:27 PM

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Cessationism is the view that the “miracle gifts” of tongues and healing have ceased—that the end of the apostolic age brought about a cessation of the miracles associated with that age. Most cessationists believe that, while God can and still does perform miracles today, the Holy Spirit no longer uses individuals to perform miraculous signs.

The biblical record shows that miracles occurred during particular periods for the specific purpose of authenticating a new message from God. Moses was enabled to perform miracles to authenticate his ministry before Pharaoh (Exodus 4:1-8). Elijah was given miracles to authenticate his ministry before Ahab (1 Kings 17:1; 18:24). The apostles were given miracles to authenticate their ministry before Israel (Acts 4:10, 16).

Jesus’ ministry was also marked by miracles, which the Apostle John calls “signs” (John 2:11). John’s point is that the miracles were proofs of the authenticity of Jesus’ message.

After Jesus’ resurrection, as the Church was being established and the New Testament was being written, the apostles demonstrated “signs” such as tongues and the power to heal. “Tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not” (1 Corinthians 14:22, a verse that plainly says the gift was never intended to edify the church).

The Apostle Paul predicted that the gift of tongues would cease (1 Corinthians 13:8). Here are six proofs that it has already ceased:

1) The apostles, through whom tongues came, were unique in the history of the church. Once their ministry was accomplished, the need for authenticating signs ceased to exist.

2) The miracle (or sign) gifts are only mentioned in the earliest epistles, such as 1 Corinthians. Later books, such as Ephesians and Romans, contain detailed passages on the gifts of the Spirit, but the miracle gifts are not mentioned, although Romans does mention the gift of prophecy. The Greek word translated “prophecy” means “speaking forth” and does not necessarily include prediction of the future.

3) The gift of tongues was a sign to unbelieving Israel that God’s salvation was now available to other nations. See 1 Corinthians 14:21-22 and Isaiah 28:11-12.

4) Tongues was an inferior gift to prophecy (preaching). Preaching the Word of God edifies believers, whereas tongues does not. Believers are told to seek prophesying over speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:1-3).

5) History indicates that tongues did cease. Tongues are not mentioned at all by the Post-Apostolic Fathers. Other writers such as Justin Martyr, Origen, Chrysostom, and Augustine considered tongues something that happened only in the earliest days of the Church.

6) Current observation confirms that the miracle of tongues has ceased. If the gift were still available today, there would be no need for missionaries to attend language school. Missionaries would be able to travel to any country and speak any language fluently, just as the apostles were able to speak in Acts 2. As for the miracle gift of healing, we see in Scripture that healing was associated with the ministry of Jesus and the apostles (Luke 9:1-2). And we see that as the era of the apostles drew to a close, healing, like tongues, became less frequent. The Apostle Paul, who raised Eutychus from the dead (Acts 20:9-12), did not heal Epaphroditus (Philippians 2:25-27), Trophimus (2 Timothy 4:20), Timothy (1 Timothy 5:23), or even himself (2 Corinthians 12:7-9). The reasons for Paul’s “failures to heal” are 1) the gift was never intended to make every Christian well, but to authenticate apostleship; and 2) the authority of the apostles had been sufficiently proved, making further miracles unnecessary.

The reasons stated above are evidence for cessationism. According to 1 Corinthians 13:13-14:1, we would do well to “pursue love,” the greatest gift of all. If we are to desire gifts, we should desire to speak forth the Word of God, that all may be edified.


desmond2020
post Jul 4 2017, 03:24 PM

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The Christian view of wealth should be derived from the Scriptures. There are many times in the Old Testament that God gave riches to His people. Solomon was promised riches and became the richest of all the kings of the earth (1 Kings 3:11-13; 2 Chronicles 9:22); David said in 1 Chronicles 29:12: “Wealth and honor come from you; you are the ruler of all things.” Abraham (Genesis 17-20), Jacob (Genesis 30-31), Joseph (Genesis 41), King Jehoshaphat (2 Chronicles 17:5), and many others were blessed by God with wealth. However, they were a chosen people with earthly promises and rewards. They were given a land and all the riches it held.

In the New Testament, there is a different standard. The church was never given a land or the promise of riches. Ephesians 1:3 tells us, “Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.” Christ spoke in Matthew 13:22 concerning the seed of God's Word falling among thorns and “the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful” (NKJV). This is the first reference to earthly riches in the New Testament. Clearly, this is not a positive image.

In Mark 10:23, " Jesus looked around and said to His disciples, ‘How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God!’” It was not impossible—for all things are possible with God—but it would be “hard.” In Luke 16:13, Jesus spoke about “mammon” (the Aramaic word for “riches”): “No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.” Again, the imagery here is of wealth as a negative influence on spirituality and one that can keep us from God.

God speaks of the true riches He brings to us today in Romans 2:4: “Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?” These are the riches which bring eternal life. Again, this is brought out in Romans 9:23: “And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?” (NKJV). Also, Ephesians 1:7: “In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace." Referring to God giving mercy, Paul praises God in Romans 11:33: “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!” The emphasis of the New Testament is God's riches in us: “That you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints” (Ephesians1:18b). God actually wants to show off His riches in us in heaven: “And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus” (Ephesians 2:6-7).

The riches that God wants for us: “I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being” (Ephesians 3:16). The greatest verse for New Testament believers concerning riches is Philippians 4:19: “And my God will meet all your needs according to his glorious riches in Christ Jesus.” This statement was written by Paul because the Philippians had sent sacrificial gifts to take care of Paul's needs.

First Timothy 6:17 gives a warning to the rich: “Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment.” James 5:1-3 gives us another warning about riches that were wrongly gained: “Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you. Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days.” The last time that riches are mentioned in the Bible is in Revelation 18:17, speaking of the great destruction of Babylon: “In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!”

To summarize, Israel was given earthly promises and rewards as God's chosen people on earth. He gave many illustrations and types and truths through them. Many people desire to take their blessings, but not their curses. However, in the progression of revelation, God has revealed through Jesus Christ a more excellent ministry: “But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises” (Hebrews 8:6).

God does not condemn anyone for having riches. Riches come to people from many sources, but He gives grave warnings to those who seek after them more than they seek after God and trust in them more than in God. His greatest desire is for us to set our hearts on things above and not on things on this earth. This may sound very high and unobtainable, but Paul wrote, “I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me” (Philippians 4:13 NKJV). The secret is knowing Christ as Savior and allowing the Holy Spirit to conform our minds and heart to His (Romans 12:1-2).
desmond2020
post Jul 4 2017, 07:32 PM

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Here is an excellent article on tithing

Thoughts on Tithing
by
John MacArthur

All Rights Reserved
Copyright 1984





Question

There is a very popular Charismatic TV program that promotes the "law of reciprocity," as far as tithing goes--giving money to the Lord. In effect, that whatever you give to the Lord, you are going to receive it back while you are on earth. I just want to hear you views on that.

Answer

Open your Bible to a very important portion of Scripture that has to be considered in any discussion like this [tithing], on that question, and that is 2 Corinthians 8-9, because this is where the issue is discussed. The principle that is laid down here has to be brought into thought. The whole section of 8 and 9 is talking about giving, by the way, there is nothing in here about tithing--there is nothing in the New Testament any place to advocate tithing.

"Tithing," are you familiar with the concept of tithing, you know, "Give 10% to the church," you know, that kind of thing? Tithing, basically, is never, ever advocated in the New Testament; it is never taught in the New Testament—never!

It is referred to a couple of times, that's all, as a historical fact: it talks about tithes being offered by Abraham to Aaron, you know, "in the loins of Abraham," it says, Aaron paid tithes to Melchizedek—it is just an historical reference. It talks about the fact that Abraham gave tithes, also of a tenth of the heap, which he took in the battle with the kings. So it is only an historic reference. And then in the gospels it talks about the fact that the Jews tithed to their government, again a historical reference. No place in the entire New Testament is it ever advocated for us to give tithes, that is, for us to give 10% to the church. You say, "Well what was it in the Old Testament?" Every year a Jew had to give 10% of all of his crop and all of his produce, and all of whatever he had. He gave 10%, which was called the "Levite's Tithe," and what you have to understand is that the nation Israel was a theocracy, that is, it was ruled by God through priests. There were 24 different orders of priests, with thousands upon thousands of priests—they were the government officials, they were the Senate, the Congress, the whole thing, only they didn't have to vote on anything—they just sought God and God told them what to do. So it was a theocracy ruled by God and that rule was disseminated through these people.

Well, since they were the agents of the government, they had to be supported. Do you remember that the twelve tribes were each given land, but they split the tribe of Joseph in to two tribes: Ephriam and Manassah to make up twelve, because Levi was taken out, because Levi was the priestly tribe and they owned nothing. So they had to be supported by all the other tribes. They were given cities in the locations of the other tribal areas and people had to give money to support their livelihood—part of their sheep, part of their crop, and everything had to go to support Levi's tribe, because they were the ones who represented God in the government.

So when you gave your 10% each year you gave it to the government for the care of the country, the nation. Secondly, you gave another 10% every year, which was for the festivals and the religious convocations of the nation. In other words, all of the big things that were held in Jerusalem, all the things that had to be done to prepared for the feasts and so forth in Jerusalem, and all the holy days, and all the Sabbaths, and all the everything else that went with it.

So you pay 10% to the Levites to support them as they operated in behalf of God in the government; you paid 10% to take care of the national festivals, which were many, many. Then you paid another 10% every third year, which went to the poor and the widows. So if you broke that down, you are at about 23.3% per year. Now what that was, was an income tax system. That was a system of taxation to fund the government and its religious activities and its welfare needs.

So when people today say, "We want to tithe now like they did in the Old Testament," they can't stop at 10%, they got 23.3% to start with. In addition to that, you paid a half shekel temple tax every year, in addition to that, if you had a field, you had to harvest the field in a circle and leave the corners open for the poor. It was a profit-sharing plan. If you dropped a bail of hay off your wagon, on the way to the barn, you had to leave that for the poor. So you start adding that up and you are looking at about 25% of their income went to fund the national entity of the government. Now when you get into the New Testament, the Jews were still doing that, because they still had a nation, even though they were an occupied nation, they were still a nation. They were occupied by the Romans, but they weren't run by the Romans. They had their own religious hierarchy, they had their own school systems, they had their own festivals, and all that stuff, and so they had to take care of that. They had their own priesthood; it all had to go on, that is why Jesus said, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's," in other words, pay the Romans what they asked, and render to God the things that are God's. So just to clarify that at the very beginning, when you are talking about a tithe, you are talking about the "taxation." Now when you translate that over into our time, it is kind of interesting to me that the base tax system in our country is about 20%, you add sales tax to that and you probably get another 5%, we are on about the same level they were then--about 25% of our income goes out for taxation, if you are in the normal tax bracket and with normal deductions, unless you are really doing well, but then they get you in different ways, because the more money you have the more things you buy, the more things you buy, the higher sales tax you pay, so maybe it comes out even harder for people who have more. Nonetheless, that's taxation. OK? Giving was always something different, always you gave whatever you wanted, like when they built the tabernacle and God said, "Let every man bring whatever he purposes in his heart; let him do it willingly, whatever he wants to give." And they kept coming, bringing so much that finally they said, "Stop, don't bring anymore--that's enough." So giving is always a "freewill," it's always an expression of love and appreciation--whatever you want to do.

Now you come to 2 Corinthians, chapter eight, and you learn how the church gave. The church knew there was a need so the church gave. How did they give? Well, it wasn't 10%, it says, "The churches in Macedonia, 2Cor 8:1, gave abundantly out of deep poverty. It says that their deep poverty abounded to the riches of their liberality." Here was a very poor church in Macedonia, very poor, but they gave generously, out of their hearts liberally. In fact, verse three says, they gave beyond their ability. They gave more than they should have given--more then they could of given, and the reason they did that was in verse five, because they first gave themselves. I mean when you give yourself then everything you have belongs to the Lord. So, Paul is saying to the Corinthians, "If you want a lesson in giving, look at these people--out of deep poverty they gave everything they had." In fact, they gave more then they should of, but they did that because they had already given themselves to the Lord. Now you have the key motive in giving; what is the right motive in giving? It is not to get anything. It is in that whole hearted abandonment, "they gave everything."

I worry about this Charismatic "Health and Wealth" prosperity business, where you are just simply saying, "Well I am going to give my money so I can get it!" That is not the spirit of the Macedonians, they didn't even have enough to give what they gave, but they gave it anyway, because they had already given themselves to the Lord. Their whole program was a "give myself away" program, not a "get for myself" program. We are suffering today, in Christianity, from an absolutely pervasive greed. Our contemporary Christianity is so self-indulgent it boggles the mind. That is why we don't reach out to people, because we are consumed with feeding ourselves. It's a mentality that all of us fall prey to.

A guy in our church told me the other day that he was meeting with a group of Christians, and all they could talk about was their latest investments. You look around you and you see people all around the world, you know, who have need. I was talking to Mitz (sp.) and he was telling me there are about 32,000 people in the city of Los Angeles who are homeless. We have been strategizing the last few days about what we are going to do about that. Some people are talking about how they can get another Mercedes, and there are some people who are trying to get up out of the gutter to feed their family.

So, we have a mentality, and of course, what we have done, see, we justified our materialism by developing a theology to accommodate it--you know, "Jesus wants you healthy and wealthy."

There was a book called "Prime Time Religion" about Oral Roberts, and it showed how he has become a multimillionaire by the way he works things. In the book it points out, for example, he writes a book or has someone write it for him, and then he publishes it with his own publishing house (it describes all this, one of the guys on his staff wrote the book--unhappily for them); it shows how he publishes the book and then sells it to the Oral Roberts Evangelistic Association--sells them about two million copies so they can send it out to all the people on their mailing list, who send them twenty-five bucks, only he sells to them for a dollar profit on each book. So he writes a book, publishes the book, makes a buck profit selling it to his own organization, pockets two million dollars and then they distribute it.

Now, those are the kinds of people, for the most part, who are on television begging you for your money, and telling you that God is going to make you rich and so forth.

So there is a theology that has developed, and then what they do, trying to live with that is very difficult, so in order to live with that kind of thing you develop a theology that says "Jesus wants you wealthy," and that's how you deal with your conscience--"God wants you rich!" I mean, you read in a magazine--we were in Israel and we find people, who go over there to lead tours to Israel, demand $1,000 per day rooms, they demand limousine service everywhere, they go into these little shops where they take their tourists to buy things, and one guy told me that one group went in there and the leader wanted $12,000 worth of jewelry to bring his group to their store.

These are the people who develop this kind of accommodating theology, "Jesus wants you wealthy, Jesus wants you rich, Jesus wants you prosperous, He wants you healthy and all that kind of thing," and I really believe that it is a "back door" means to justify a materialistic attitude, and the Lord needs to deliver us from that.

These people [2 Cor 8:1] gave out of their deep poverty, not because they wanted anything back because they were so abandoned to the Lord. Having said all of that, all right--this is a long sermon--I want you to look at chapter nine, verse six, "But this I say, he that sows sparingly shall reap sparingly; he that sows bountifully shall reap bountifully." In this sense, we have to admit that they have a kernel of the truth, because if you sow a little bit you reap a little, if you sow a lot you reap a lot, and it is true that when you give to the Lord--He does give back, but if that is your motive--it's warped. It is true that He does that, but if you come to the Lords work and say, "I'm going to put this in, because I know that I am going to get back multiplied, then your giving is illegitimate. But if you can do it with a free, clear conscience, and even though you have to fight yourself, you know, sometimes you say, "Boy, I know the Lord is going to return this but that's not going to be my motive," you know, you kind of go back and forth, but if you have a clear conscience about that then it is ok. So, "you sow sparingly, you reap sparingly; you sow bountifully, you reap bountifully." There is the fact that God will bless, Luke 6:38, Jesus says, "Give, and it shall be. . . ." what? "Given unto you, " That's a great statement, "pressed down, shaken together and running over."

Did you ever buy a box of crackers and shake it, and open it, and you got about a third of a box of crackers? But that isn't how it is going to be when the Lord gives, it will be pressed down, shaken together, and still running over. He'll give.

Now, you say, "Yeah, I know what will happen to me. I will give all of my money and the Lord will give me back all spiritual blessings." That might happen, but in verse seven it says, "every man according as he purposes in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, nor of necessity: for God loves a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that you, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work." And, he will minister (verse 10) "He that ministers seed to the sower will minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness." Verse 10 is really key: He says He will not only give you back what you sowed; He'll give you back bread for your food--He'll take care of your physical needs when you give, and He'll increase the fruit of your righteousness. It doesn't say that He'll make you wealthy, does it? It says, He'll meet your needs, and He will fill your life with righteousness.

Question (continued)

I did notice that most of the verses they used to promote this were out of the Old Testament.

Answer (continued)

It's very popular doctrine--people want to be rich, they want to be wealthy. The hottest new cult there is, is Terri Cole Whittiker (sp.)--I don't know if you've seen her? She is nothing but a slick Doris Day type Reverend Ike! She is in it for the money. She comes out of "Science of Mind." She's manipulative--she has figured out how to make a fortune and she is "milking" it for every dime that she can get out of it. And she can do it because people will do anything to get rich. People will do anything to get two things: money and health--and if you can promise people health and wealth, they will follow you off the end of the pier--believe me, they will.

Why do you think Jesus told the disciples when He sent them out, "Take no money when you heal," because if they would have taken money, they would have become instant millionaires--people will pay any price for healing--and they could really do it! And they [people] will pay any price, they will invest anything, if they think that they can get rich.

You see, this is what "Reverend Ike" did for years. What he did was, he told these people, "You send me money--you might get rich." And he told story after story, after story about it and what "his" company did was, at random they would pick out people off their mailing list and deliver a new Cadillac to them. They would do that to 100 to 200 people a year, with the millions that were coming in, and then they would have them get up and give a testimony, how that one day there was a new Cadillac delivered in front of their door. And it becomes a lottery system--that's all it is. It is like buying a ticket in a raffle, and you know raffles work and people are gamblers--look at Las Vegas.

So if people think there is a way to get either health or wealth they will do anything, and that kind of doctrine will be popular and people will send money to it like "gangbusters." Oral Roberts has been doing that for thirty years. You ought to read his letters, "If you will send me $25 today, right today, the day you get this letter, I'll promise you that Jesus will give you back $250 within the next six months from an unexpected place." Very typical letter. And you know, you are liable to get $250 back somewhere you didn't expect it. Right? You old Aunt died, or you got an income tax return, or you got a social security check you didn't expect, or whatever. In the long run it hooks people--it's really tragic.

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desmond2020
post Jul 5 2017, 10:19 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 4 2017, 10:56 PM)
Few Scripture verse. But to begin Tithing did not exist only in the Mosaic Law, it existed 400 years before the Law hence it's never a Law to begin with, it's what God instituted else why do you think Cain and Able offered their produce?

Anyway...

Hebrews 7:4-10

4 Just think how great he was: Even the patriarch Abraham gave him a tenth of the plunder! 5 Now the law requires the descendants of Levi who become priests to collect a tenth from the people—that is, from their fellow Israelites—even though they also are descended from Abraham. 6 This man, however, did not trace his descent from Levi, yet he collected a tenth from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. 7 And without doubt the lesser is blessed by the greater. 8 In the one case, the tenth is collected by people who die; but in the other case, by him who is declared to be living. 9 One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham, 10 because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor.



Verse 8 says there, by him who is declared to be living..If you think about Melchizedek has passed on. Why does the Bible says "Living" then?

I submit to you, The context of this verse is talking about Jesus who = in the Order of Melchizedek forever. The tithe is to declare that Christ Live. If tithing is not important and matters not to God, it shouldn't even be mentioned in the New Testament, what more in the book of Hebrews.

Here is another.
Matthew 23:23 (NIV) - "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

Jesus emphasize both are important. To practice what is more important and also to tithe.

Too many times, people who oppose tithing will quote, it's only for the Israelite and will quote tithing is not money but Farm produces, etc. Today not all of us are farmers, hence we tithe with what we earned with our work, that is the same equivalent.
However Christians too often ignore Galatians 3:29 (NIV)  - If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Being An Abraham Seed means you are a spiritual Israelite hence tithing matters to you as well, you can be blessed according to Proverbs 3:9-10 and also Malachi as God tells us to Test Him.
I think the point is...if people don't want to accept tithing, they will say all kind thing even saying you won't find it in the New Testament ..but why is it, I can see it, it's mention in the NT by Jesus? 

I'll tell you why, for some people, money has in a way a hold on their life, can even go to the extend to say it's idolatry because they won't part their money, hoard it like there's no tomorrow..hence they like to hear all the "justification" not to tithe. but for me personally because I don't want money to be my God, one of the reason I tithe is to prove I can let go that 10% to God and honor his word and not just "talk" all my belonging  belongs to God. Some people like to talk so much but can't even let go 5%. (you and I know who le....the other "S" dude ) That to me is hypocrisy.

You may have your points, I will respect your Baptist Doctrine (correct me if I'm wrong) but I just find it hard to agree tithing is not required.
*
First I am not Baptist lel

Second malchizedek and tith? Here is a write up from Stevan j Cole on malchizedek





Most of you would probably admit that you’re not highly motivated to learn about Melchizedek. You’ve got marriage problems, problems with your kids, financial problems, personal problems, and other practical needs. Why in the world would you be interested in learning about some obscure figure from many centuries ago named Melchizedek? “For crying out loud, Steve, it’s Mother’s Day! Give us a message that relates to mothers!” I believe that learning about Melchizedek will help you to be a better mother, father, child, or whatever role you are in. My aim is to convince you that you do need to know about this man.

To understand this, we need to put the chapter in its context. The Jewish Christians to whom this letter was addressed were tempted to abandon their Christian faith and return to Judaism under the threat of persecution. Some of them had lost their property and had suffered public reproach on account of their faith (10:32-34). They were thinking, “Hey, we didn’t have it so bad as Jews! The Jewish religion was a good system. It spelled out how we should live. The rituals were familiar and satisfying. It was the faith of our forefathers for many centuries. Maybe we should just go back to the way things were.”

To understand the pull of the past, we need to realize that religious traditions die hard! For over 20 years, Marla and I have read and prayed along with The Global Prayer Digest (published by the U.S. Center for World Mission). One thing that has repeatedly struck me as I’ve read it is how strongly entrenched religious traditions are. It will mention a people group where, many centuries ago, Islam took root and the culture is totally Islamic. For hundreds of years, generations have lived and died without questioning the religious traditions. These false religious views dominate their whole way of life. When missionaries try to penetrate these cultures with the gospel, they meet with strong resistance, because to accept the gospel would mean abandoning centuries of religious tradition.

The author of Hebrews was trying to convince people that a religious system of sacrifices, rituals, and rules that had been in place for over 1,400 years had now been replaced by a better way. He focuses on the supremacy of Jesus Christ, who is the fulfillment of all that was written by Moses and the Jewish prophets. He introduces a theme that is only treated in the Book of Hebrews, that Jesus Christ is our high priest.

We will only appreciate our need for a high priest to the degree that we realize how holy and unapproachable God is and how sinful and defiled we are. When Isaiah saw the Lord, sitting on His throne, lofty and exalted, surrounded by the seraphim who called out, “Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts,” the prophet was undone (Isa. 6:1-5). It devastated him because immediately he became aware of how utterly sinful he was, in contrast to God in His awesome holiness.

Israel in the wilderness had seen Moses go up on the mountain into the cloud, with lightning and thunder and a loud trumpet sound, and they were terrified. If the people got too close to the mountain, God warned that He would break forth upon them with a deadly plague (Exod. 19:10-25). The Jews knew that they could not saunter into the Holy of Holies to chat with God! Only the high priest could enter there, and only once a year, with blood. The Jewish people knew how desperately they needed a high priest if they were to approach God.

The author of Hebrews is making the point that Jesus is our high priest. But He is not just the fulfillment of the Levitical priesthood. He is something more, a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek. To view Him on a par with the Levitical priests would be to make a spiritually fatal mistake. That entire old system was designed to point ahead to Jesus Christ, who superceded and fulfilled it. To go back to the old way would be to abandon God’s only way of entrance into His holy presence. It would be to turn from the only One who can save us from our sins and go back to an inferior system. So the author here is saying,

You need to know about Melchizedek because he is a type of the Lord Jesus Christ, and you desperately need to know about Christ.

The author is picking up where he left off in 5:10, before his exhortation from 5:11-6:20. He wanted to discuss the significance of Melchizedek, but he could not do so because these people had become dull of hearing. He wants them to understand Melchizedek so that they can gain a deeper understanding of Jesus Christ. But Christ does not reveal Himself to those who are spiritually lazy or apathetic. Have you ever considered why Jesus did not do the Transfiguration in front of the multitudes? In fact, He didn’t even do it in front of the Twelve. He only took with Him Peter, James, and John to witness this astounding scene!

But to the multitudes, Jesus concealed His glory and spoke in parables, because they were spiritually dull (see Matt. 13:12-15). He only reveals His glory to those with whom He is intimate, and He is only intimate with those whose hearts are humbled before Him. And so as we approach these truths about Melchizedek as a type of Christ, we must make sure that our hearts are right before God.

Also, we must give some effort and attention to the matter of seeking to know Him. The only command in our text is, “observe how great this man [Melchizedek] was” (7:4). The Greek word means to gaze at or discern through careful observation. We get the word “theater” from it. We are to observe Melchizedek because he is a type of Jesus Christ, and we desire to see the beauty and glory of Jesus, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge (Col. 2:3). To see Him as He is, is a transforming experience (1 John 3:2). The solution to every problem that you face is to know Jesus Christ more accurately and intimately.

The flow of thought runs like this: In 7:1-3, the author identifies Melchizedek as both king and priest, without genealogy or end of days. In these ways, he is “made like the Son of God,” and remains a priest perpetually. The Son of God is not made like him, but he is made like the Son of God, presented in Scripture in such a way that he points to the truth about the Son of God.

Then, in 7:4-7, the author shows that Melchizedek is greater than Abraham, the father of the Jews and of all believers, in that Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek and he blessed Abraham. In 7:8-10, the author shows that Melchizedek was also greater than the Levitical priests (and the system they represented), in two ways: First, the Levitical priests were mortal, but Melchizedek “lives on” (7:8). Second, Levi, who received tithes, actually paid tithes to Melchizedek through Abraham, his forefather, when he paid tithes to Melchizedek (7:9-10). We can sum up these points under four headings that show how Melchizedek was a type of Jesus Christ:

1. Melchizedek is a type of Christ in the dignity of his person.

Everything we know about Melchizedek comes fromGenesis 14:18-20, Psalm 110:4, and Hebrews 7. The first text is historical, the second is prophetic, and the third is theological. Melchizedek was the king of Salem (probably Jerusalem [Ps. 76:2]) and priest of the Most High God. Abraham had gone after four kings that had taken his nephew Lot and his family captive when they raided Sodom, where Lot was living. Abraham defeated these kings, recovered all of the goods, and brought back Lot and his family. As Abraham returned from this battle, Melchizedek came out to meet him. He blessed Abraham and Abraham gave Melchizedek a tenth of his spoils.

Out of what that short account says and does not say, the author of Hebrews draws some amazing parallels between Melchizedek and Christ. It is interesting that he omits what seems to be an obvious parallel, that Melchizedek met Abraham with bread and wine! You would think, “That’s clearly a type of Christ giving bread and wine to the disciples!” In the original story, Melchizedek was bringing refreshment to Abraham and his weary men. But for some reason, the author of Hebrews passes over the easy parallel and focuses on some things that most of us would have missed.

The first thing to note is that Melchizedek was both a king and a priest in the same person (7:1), which was not allowed in Israel. You may be a king or you may be a priest, but you could not be both at once. John Calvin (Calvin’s Commentaries [Baker], Hebrews, p. 155) points out that it is remarkable that Melchizedek lived with Sodom on one side and the Canaanites on the other, and yet he was a righteous king and priest. This shows that God can raise up a godly witness for Himself when and where He pleases. Like Melchizedek, Jesus is both king and priest in one person.

The author makes the point (7:2) that Melchizedek “was first of all, by the translation of his name, king of righteousness, and then also king of Salem, which is king of peace.” In Hebrew, Melchi means “my king,” and zedek means “righteousness.” Salem is related toshalom, which means peace. The order is significant: righteousness comes before peace. A king cannot have true peace in his kingdom unless both he and his kingdom are righteous. Sin brings discord and strife. Righteousness is the foundation for peace.

Jesus is called “Jesus Christ the righteous” (1 John 2:1). He not only imputes and imparts righteousness to others; He is righteous in His very being. He never sinned, nor could any guilt be found in Him. He is the Lamb of God, unblemished and spotless (1 Pet. 1:19). He is “holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners” (Heb. 7:26). He did “no violence, nor was there any deceit in His mouth” (Isa. 53:9).

When He comes again to reign, “in righteousness” He will wage war against the wicked (Rev. 19:11). “With righteousness He will judge the poor…. And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked. Also righteousness will be the belt about His loins, and faithfulness the belt about His waist” (Isa. 11:4-5). “There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness from then on and forevermore” (Isa. 9:7).

Jesus is also the king of peace (Eph. 2:14-18). He brings peace between sinners and God, and peace among all that live under His lordship. Paul wrote, “Therefore, having been justified [“declared righteous”] by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Rom. 5:1). God did not lay aside His righteousness to make peace with sinners. Rather, He laid our penalty on His righteous substitute, “so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus” (Rom. 3:26).

If you know Jesus Christ as your King of righteousness and peace, you will be growing in righteous behavior and you will be pursuing peace with others (Rom. 14:17, 19). I am not talking aboutperfection, but rather, direction. You will be growing in conformity to your King.

2. Melchizedek is a type of Christ in the derivation and duration of his priesthood.

Being a priest in Israel was totally dependent on your family lineage. All priests came from the tribe of Levi. No one else need apply. If you could not establish your family heritage, you were excluded from the priesthood (Neh. 7:61-64). But Melchizedek was “without father, without mother, without genealogy” (Heb. 7:3). Yet he was “priest of the Most High God” (7:1).

A few have interpreted Melchizedek’s lack of genealogy and the next phrase, that he had “neither beginning of days nor end of life,” to mean that he was superhuman, either an angel or a preincarnate appearance of Jesus Christ. But the vast majority of commentators reject that interpretation and agree that Melchizedek was simply a great man who lived at the same time as Abraham.

The author of Hebrews is building an argument from the strange silence of Genesis. That book emphasizes genealogies and the number of years that the patriarchs lived. In the midst of this emphasis, seemingly out of nowhere, comes this man Melchizedek. His family lineage is never mentioned, nor does Genesis say anything about the length of his life or his death. The author is saying that the Holy Spirit deliberately omitted these facts from a book that emphasizes such, in order to make Melchizedek an appropriate type of Jesus Christ. That’s why he says that Melchizedek was “made like the Son of God” (7:3), rather than “Jesus was made like Melchizedek.” It is not that Melchizedek never died, but rather in what Genesis omits, that he “remains a priest perpetually.”

Jesus’ human lineage is given in Scripture, but He did not come from the priestly tribe of Levi, but from Judah (7:14). To be our high priest forever, Jesus had to be of a different priestly order, namely, that of Melchizedek. As the Son of God (that title is used deliberately in 7:3 to focus on Jesus’ deity; see also, 1:8), Jesus has no human lineage, and thus fulfills the type of Melchizedek as reported in Genesis. Also, the Levitical priests died and had to be replaced, but Jesus lives on in His high priesthood (7:23-24). So both in the derivation and in the duration of his priesthood, Melchizedek is a type of Jesus Christ.

3. Melchizedek is a type of Christ in the dimension of his priesthood.

Melchizedek was greater than both Abraham and Levi, since he received tithes from both of these great men. Abraham spontaneously recognized that this man represented God Most High, and so he gave him a tenth of his choicest spoils as an act of worship and gratitude toward God for granting him victory over the four kings. Levi, who was Abraham’s great-grandson, gave tithes to Melchizedek through Abraham’s tithes, in that he was still in Abraham’s loins when this took place. In Hebrew thought, an ancestor contained in him all of his descendants. Thus Paul argues that when Adam sinned, the entire human race sinned (Rom. 5:12). So here, the author says, “so to speak, through Abraham even Levi, who received tithes, paid tithes.”

Some (e.g., A. W. Pink) use this to argue that the principle of the tithe, giving God ten percent, transcends the Law of Moses. But Abraham only did this on one recorded occasion (as did Jacob, Gen. 28:22). The New Testament epistles never command believers to tithe, even when addressed to Gentile congregations that would have needed such instruction. Rather, the New Testament principle is that God owns everything that we are and have, and that we are to give as He has prospered us (1 Cor. 16:2;2 Cor. 8 & 9). We are stewards of His resources, and we will give an account of how we have used them to further His kingdom (Matt. 6:19-33; 25:14-30; Luke 16:1-13; 1 Tim. 6:17-19).

But the point of the typology between Melchizedek and the Son of God is that since Melchizedek, in receiving tithes from Abraham and Levi, was greater than these great men, Jesus is greater still. As our High Priest, He is worthy not just of a tithe, but of all that we are and have, because He bought us with His blood. No gifts that we give can compare with His matchless worth!

Thus Melchizedek is a type of Christ in the dignity of his person; in the derivation and duration of his priesthood; and, in the dimension of his priesthood. Finally,

4. Melchizedek is a type of Christ in the dispensing of his priesthood.

Even though Abraham was God’s chosen man and God promised to bless the nations through him, Melchizedek “blessed the one who had the promises. But without any dispute the lesser is blessed by the greater” (7:6-7). Scripture uses the term “blessing” in different ways. In one sense, we bless God (Ps. 103:1), which does not imply that we are greater than He! We bless others by praying for them or rendering kind words or service (Luke 6:28; 1 Pet. 3:9), which is mutual. But here the sense is that of the priestly (Num. 6:22-27) or fatherly (Gen. 27:27; 48:15) blessing, which was not mutual. The one imparting the blessing is conveying God’s blessing through His authority onto the one being blessed. Since Melchizedek pronounced God’s blessing on Abraham, he is greater than this great man who had God’s promises!

But Melchizedek is only a type of the one who is greater still, the Lord Jesus Christ. Herveus (a 12thcentury writer, cited by Philip Hughes, A Commentary on the Epistle to the Hebrews [Eerdmans], p. 251) applies the truth here to Christ by saying,

If Melchizedek, who was a sign and shadow, is preferred to Abraham and to all the levitical priests, how much more Christ, who is the truth and the substance! … If a type of Christ is greater than he who has the promises, how much more so is Christ himself!

If Melchizedek could bless Abraham, how much more is the Son of God ready and able to bless those who draw near to God through Him! If we want God’s blessings, we should seek them in Christ, because “as many as are the promises of God, in Him they are yes” (2 Cor. 1:20). What do you need from God? Eternal life? Yes! Forgiveness of sins? Yes! Inner peace? Yes! Hope? Yes! Joy in the midst of trials? Yes! Grace to endure? Yes! Victory over sin? Yes! Healing from past wounds? Yes! Jesus is the perfect high priest who dispenses God’s blessings to those who have His promises. Draw near to Him!

Conclusion

Two concluding applications: First, what you believe about Jesus Christ makes a huge difference! The Hebrews were in danger of falling away from the faith because they did not grasp how great Melchizedek is and therefore they did not grasp how much greater the One whom Melchizedek prefigured is.

As I have pointed out many times, the most important question in the world is Jesus’ question to the Twelve, “Who do you say that I am?” (See my sermons, “The Most Important Question in the World,” from Mark 8:27-33; and, “The Crucial Question,” from Luke 9:18-22.) That question has an objectively true answer. Your eternal destiny hinges on your response to that question. If you correctly say from your heart by faith, “Jesus Christ is the Son of God who gave Himself on the cross as the only sacrifice for my sins,” you have eternal life! If you diminish Jesus to a lesser role, such as, “He is a great moral example or teacher,” then you do not have the high priest that you need when you stand before God for judgment. Any teaching that diminishes the supremacy of Jesus Christ is false teaching!

Second, seek God continually and fervently in His Word to give you a greater knowledge of the beauty and glory of Jesus Christ. Paul’s lifelong quest as a believer was to “count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord” (Phil. 3:8). Samuel Ridout wrote,

As we see the glories of Christ contrasted with the shadows of the law and everything that was connected with an earthly priesthood, well might we say that if faith had apprehended the reality of what Christ was, they would gladly take not only the spoiling of their goods, but also the spoiling of all their earthly hopes, things that they had clung to as so dear before. Once let Christ be apprehended, once let the beauty of His character as our Priest and the blessedness of the place into which He had introduced us be laid hold of by the soul, and the things of earth which would hold us fast, a carnal religion and all else, will lose their hold, even as the leaves drop off the trees in autumn.

So why do you need to know about Melchizedek? Because he is one gateway that God has provided to tell you about Christ. If you want to endure hardship and even persecution, if you want God’s blessing on your family and in your personal life, if you want to resist temptation and live a righteous life, seek God for a clearer vision of the glory of Christ. When we are enthralled with Him, “the things of earth will grow strangely dim, in the light of His glory and grace” (Helen Lemmel, “Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus”).


desmond2020
post Jul 5 2017, 11:03 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 5 2017, 08:27 AM)
One thing about John MacArthur, He doesn't believe in healing. What God is doing today defy his doctrine.

I rather see God as how define by his word in the Bible not define by doctrine written by Man.

The problem with Christianity today, some of us are too dependant on who is the teacher (Man) rather than to look to the Holy Spirit the original teacher of the Bible.
*
John Macarthur don't believe about healing? Strong word here


To be fair, let read what he said


In our ongoing study of the Charismatic movement today, I wanna jump right in to a subject that I know I can't completely cover, but I want you to learn to think biblically about this because I'm very concerned about it. Today, we hear an awful lot of talk about miracles, somebody says, "I had a financial need and a miracle happened. The mailman came and in the mail was a check for just the amount of money I needed. It was a miracle." Or you hear someone say, "I went to the mall and there was a parking place right by the entrance. It was a miracle." Or a mother might sense something wrong in an adjoining room and investigate just in time to stop her little toddler from putting a paper clip into an electrical outlet, and say, "It's a miracle." Or maybe you were thinking and praying for somebody and just seemingly at the time you were doing that, the phone rang and it was the very person you were thinking about, and they were right there to be encouraged and you say, "That was a miracle." Well, we call those things miracles, but they're not miracles. A miracle is a supernatural event which has no human explanation. More than that, a miracle is a supernatural event which suspends natural law. In other words, natural law stops and is suspended while God acts, moves back out and then the natural course continues. When you find a place to park at the mall or when you catch your little toddler just at the right moment, or when you get a check for what you needed, or when a friend calls at precisely the right moment in time, those would be acts of providence, those would be acts whereby God is simply orchestrating natural events, not suspending the natural, but controlling the natural so that it does what He wants it to do.

A miracle then is an extraordinary event wrought by God that cannot be explained by any natural means. That would be the technical definition. It might sound something like this. A miracle is an event in nature so extraordinary in itself and so coinciding with the prophecy or command of a religious teacher or leader as fully to warrant the conviction on the part of those who witness it, that God has wrought it with the design of certifying that this teacher or leader has been commissioned by him. Now, that takes us to another dimension, and I wanted to read that. That's from Augustus Strong written way back in 1907, and what he is saying there is that anytime a miracle occurs, it is associated with the certification of a teacher or a leader commissioned by God.

Theologians prior of course to the Charismatic movement, the Pentecostal movement and this century, were united in the understanding that miracles did not happen randomly, they did not happen through history in a willy-nilly sort of way. God did not do them capriciously or whimsically. There wasn't a continual flow of miracles at all times and places through church history, but rather, miracles, that is God stepping in to the natural world, suspending natural law, doing something that had no natural explanation, pulling back out again and letting natural law then run its course, did that only in certification of especially commissioned teacher.

In fact, miracles in Scripture, all the way from Exodus through Deuteronomy to Nehemiah through the Psalms, Jeremiah, Daniel, into the New Testament, Matthew, Mark, John, Acts, Romans, 2 Corinthians, Thessalonians and Hebrews, miracles are called signs and wonders. They are signs, and what are signs for? A sign is to point to something, and what were they signs of? They were signs authenticating a divinely commissioned teacher. When God supernaturally, superhumanly suspended natural law and acted in human history, He did so as a sign to point to a teacher who was speaking for Him.

I've collected through the years a very large file of supposed miracles. They range all the way from 1977's newspaper article about Maria Rubio of Lake Arthur, New Mexico who was frying tortillas in her kitchen. She noticed that one of them seemed to have the likeness of a face etched in the burn marks. She concluded that it was Jesus and even built a crude shrine to the tortilla. Thousands of people visited the shrine of the Jesus of the holy tortilla and concluded it was indeed a miracle. "I do not why this has happened to me," Mrs. Rubio said, "but God has come into my life through this tortilla." From the Chicago Tribune. In 1980, in Deptford, New Jersey, Bud Ward, the town's fire department photographer was driving with his wife when he accidentally took a wrong turn. Noticing flames in an abandoned chicken coop behind the Naples Pizzeria, he pulled into the parking lot and began taking pictures. When the slides came back from Kmart, Ward's nine year old daughter noticed what seemed to be an image of Christ in one of the photographs. Word of this discovery spread and soon people from all over New Jersey were talking about the pizza Jesus of Deptford Township. Several people knelt and prayed under the image projected from the slide and others asked that the image be projected onto their chests. Hundreds believed it was a true miracle. Again, according to the GloucesterTimes.

Such apparitions are seen as miracles. In August of 1986, in Postoria, Ohio, the image of Jesus seemed to appear every night in the shadows and rust marks on the side of a soybean oil storage tank. Hawkers sold thousands of, "I saw the vision," t-shirts and coffee mugs to those who came to see the miracle. Nearly a year later, Arlene Gardner of Estill Springs, Tennessee, noticed that when her neighbors turned on their porch light, the image of a face appeared in the glow reflected off her freezer. She believed it was the face of Jesus, although several observers said it looked more like Willy Nelson. Arlene and her husband were so convinced it was a true miracle they quit the church when the pastor expressed skepticism.

Well, evidently, skepticism is a rare commodity these days. People's hunger for the mysterious and the astonishing and phenomena is a little unsurpassed in the history of the church. It's pretty popular stuff in the secular world and it's found its way into the church. Eager to witness miracles, many people seem willing to believe that almost anything unusual is a genuine heavenly wonder. The problem with that is it poses a severe danger for the church because it plays right into the hands of Satan, doesn't it? False wonders and false signs, false miracles, extremely believable ones, the Bible tells us will be the primary tool of Satan in the end times. Jesus said, "False Christ and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders so as to mislead if possible even the elect." Then He added as if knowing that many would ignore the warning, "Behold, I have told you in advance," Matthew 24:24-25.

Surely, in the light of the warning of Jesus and the warnings of the apostle Paul in the New Testament, we should have a healthy skepticism on the part of these supposed miracles. Now, I want you to understand. I am not by nature a skeptic. I am not a naturalist and a humanist and an anti-super naturalist. I believe in miracles, and I believe that every miracle recorded in the Bible literally happened exactly as the Bible described it. I believe, for example, that Moses and the Israelites actually walked through the parted Red Sea and didn't get their feet wet or muddy. I believe that Elijah raised a widow's young son from the dead and that fire called down from Heaven was actually heavenly fire and consumed water. I believe with absolute conviction that Elijah made an axe head float, an iron axe head. I believe that all the healings, miracles, signs and wonders attributed to Jesus and the four Gospels happened exactly and precisely as they are recorded there, and I believe the apostles literally performed all the miracles which the New Testament described. That's not all. I believe God can still do miracles. I believe all things are possible with God, as Matthew 19:26 says. "His power has not diminished in the least since the days of the early church."

But even though I believe all of that, and I believe that if God chooses to do something miraculous, He can do it. I am convinced that most of the miracle signs and wonders, if not all, being claimed today in the Charismatic movement, have nothing in common with what we know about Biblical miracles. They do not fit the Biblical criteria. And I am persuaded by both Scripture and history that nothing like the New Testament gift of miracles, noted in 1 Corinthians chapter 12 is operating today. The Holy Spirit has not given any modern day Christians miraculous gifts comparable to those He gave the apostles.

Now, in spite of that, many Charismatics are making quite remarkable claims. Oral Roberts, for example, speaking at the Charismatic Bible Ministry Conference in 1987 said, and I quote, "I can't tell you about all the dead people I've raised. I've had to stop a sermon, go back and raise a dead person." No less in authority than Dr. C. Peter Wagner, professor of church growth at Fuller Seminary, School of World Mission, believes such things do happen, and I quote him, "I too, now believe that dead people are literally being raised in the world today. As soon as I say that some ask if I believe it is normative. I doubt it would be normative in any local situation, but it probably is normative in terms of the universal body of Christ. Even though it is an extremely uncommon event, I would not be surprised if it were happening several times a year," end quote. John Wimber of the Vineyard lists raising the dead as one of the basic elements of any healing ministry.

Now, with the supposed large number of people being raised from the dead, you would imagine that somebody could manage to come up with one who could give testimony to the validity. But not one modern occurrence of raising the dead can be verified. Say, what about Oral Roberts' claim that he's raised many people? Well, he was challenged to produce the names and addresses of the people he raised, and he balked. Later, he recalled only one incident more than 20 years before when he had supposedly raised a dead child in front of 10,000 witnesses, "During healing service," he recalled, "a mother in the audience jumped up and shouted, 'My baby's dead.'" Roberts said he prayed over the child and, "It jerked, it jerked in my hand." Roberts conceded that neither that child nor others he said he had brought to life had been pronounced clinically dead. "I understand," he hedged, "there's a difference in a person dying and not breathing and a person being clinically dead." Well, what are we supposed to make out that confusion? It's certainly a far cry from Jesus raising Lazarus who had been four days in the grave. And if this Dr. Wagner supposes dead people are literally being raised several times a year, wouldn't it be reasonable to expect that he would bring one along so we could meet him or her. The truth is those who claim miracles today are not able to substantiate their claims. And like the miracles in the New Testament which were usually done with large crowds of unbelievers watching who would be skeptical, modern miracles typically happen either privately or in some religious meeting where there are a lot of people who are in a wild kind of frenzy expecting a miracle where it's a lot easier to fabricate one in the imagination.

And the types of miracles that are being claimed today are absolutely nothing like New Testament miracles, absolutely nothing like them. In fact, the types of miracles today could be distinctly seen as different than New Testament miracles. Jesus and the apostles instantly and completely healed people born blind, a paralytic, a man with a withered arm. All obvious and disputable miracles, even Jesus' enemies didn't challenge the reality of His miracles that He had the people there to verify them. He raised the dead, of course, as we well know. They never did a miracle that was slow, they never did a miracle that took time, they never did a miracle that was less than permanent. By contrast, most modern miracles are partial, gradual, temporary, sometimes reversed, and almost impossible to verify.

And the only instant miracles today seem to be those that deal with psycho-somatic diseases. People with visible disabilities are rarely if ever helped at all by modern faith healers. I recently watched a televangelist interview a man he had supposedly healed of lameness. The man said he was free from his wheelchair for the first time in several years, however, the man was walking with crutches and had heavy braces on his legs. That's not a miracle at all like any in the Scripture. No modern miracle worker claims the kind of unequivocal success seen in the ministry of Christ and His apostles.

Now, there are some in the Charismatic movement who try to defend the supposed miracles which are not verifiable by saying that Jesus Christ is same yesterday, today and forever, so it's the same Jesus today. The Holy Spirit is still with us today and therefore, with Him, we have the age of miracles. David Du Plessiswho is sort of the patriarch of the movement, who has been called Mr. Pentecost, believed, he's dead now, that the age of miracles never ended and that we're still in the age of miracles, and that he said that the miracles and events described in the book of Acts should be normative throughout the church's history. And it is that view that most Pentecostals and Charismatics hold. That whatever the Holy Spirit did in the past, He is still doing now; that miracles go on and on as long as there is the Holy Spirit. They say the Holy Spirit never changed. They say the early church changed. It became doctrinal, it became formal, it became ritualistic, and so the Holy Spirit pulled back His power and now after nearly 2,000 years, He's released it again. The thing that always amazes me is if the Holy Spirit were going to release His power, why would He release it to authenticate the people who teach bad theology? If He wanted to authenticate anybody with miracles, you could be sure it would be those who were the truest and the purest and the most profound and Biblical and the most skilled and dedicated teachers of the Word of God who were teaching the truth.

Many Pentecostals and Charismatics talk about the restoration of the New Testament Holy Spirit power through their movement. They say they're doing again what the apostles did in the first century. Is that true? If so, why do modern revelations, visions, tongues, healings and miracles differ so dramatically from those done by the apostles? And why is it that they're associated with people who do not understand properly the truth of God? And if miracles and signs and wonders are so vital, then why is it that for nearly 2,000 years the Holy Spirit didn't do any? You mean there weren't even a few people around who would have been worthy of such? Should Christians today expect miracles? Is Oral Roberts right when he says, "Everyone of you out there should expect your miracle today"? Are we supposed to be able to do miracles, heal people, raise the dead?

Well, in answer to all of this, we need to take a look at Scripture and I wanna give you just a fast look, overview at this matter of miracles that I think will set your thinking in the right frame. Most Biblical miracles happened in one of three relatively brief periods of Biblical history. You need to note this. Most Biblical miracles happened in three relatively brief periods of Bible history, the days of Moses and Joshua, during the ministries of Elijah and Elisha and thirdly, in the time of Christ and the apostles. None of those periods lasted much more than 100 years. Each of them, each of the three experienced a proliferation of miracles unheard of at other times in God's redemptive history. But even during those three times, miracles were not just normal, every day occurrences that happened to anybody and everybody. The miracles that did happen in the time of Moses and Joshua involved Moses and Joshua. The miracles that happened in the time of Elijah and Elisha happened around the ministries of Elijah and Elisha. And the miracles that happened to Christ and the apostles and through them, happened through their ministries. There weren't just miracles happening all over everywhere to all kinds of people.

And aside from those three intervals, the only other miracles recorded in Scripture are very, very isolated events. It is true in the days of Isaiah, the Lord miraculously defeated Sennacherib army, then healed Hezakiah and turned the sun's shadow back, 2 Kings 19:20. It is true in the days of Daniel, God miraculously preserved Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego in the furnace, Daniel 3. But those are very uncommon and very unusual. It is true that God did miraculously preserve Jonah in the belly of a great fish. But for the most part, those are very isolated, and miracles that those didn't happen to God's people as a course of life.

Now, God of course, at any time can inject Himself into the human stream supernaturally and do a miracle. But He chose to limit Himself primarily to three periods of history, and very rarely will you ever find a miracle in the times in between. The rest of the time, God just works through providence, doesn't need a miracle, He can work through providence. The reason He did a miracle is because a miracle can only be attributed to God. It can only be explained supernaturally and there were times when that was crucial.

Let me give you some points. Three characteristics of the miracles in Scripture will help you understand this. One, miracles introduced new eras of revelation. Miracles introduced new eras of revelation. All three of those periods of miracles were times when God gave His written revelation. Moses and Joshua, the time of the giving of the law. Elijah and Elisha introduced the prophetic office, the prophetic age, and all of the books of prophecy, major prophets and minor prophets. The New Testament obviously, Christ did miracles, the apostles did miracles. That introduced the era of the New Testament revelation. So, whenever God was going to pour out His Word, He wanted to certify certain prophets and teachers of His Word, to authenticate them.

Moses was given the power to do certain miracles that people might know he spoke as God's spokesman. There was no other way to explain what God used him to do other than God was doing it and therefore, this was God's man and when he spoke, he spoke for God. And the same was true in Joshua's case when he wrote his book.

You come to Elijah and Elisha and the miracles that attended their ministry as they were the prophets of God, and they were introducing a very long era of prophetic literature. As God revealed through the prophets of which really they were sort of the introducers. And even if those rare miracles that occurred in other eras involve people who were used by God to write Scripture. Hezakiah's healing involved Isaiah. The three men in the fiery furnace involved Daniel. Those two were what we call major prophets who spoke and wrote for God. Moses performed many miracles in an attempt to convince Pharaoh to let the people of Israel go, to convince Pharaoh that this was not some normal man. This was not some natural man, but this was God's man who spoke for God.

Miracles seem to accompany the Israelites on the their journey out of Egypt and miracles came in their journey through the wilderness to remind the people of God that God was their God and that Moses was God's spokesman. How else would they know who to listen to? They certainly didn't want to listen to Aaron or anybody else. And even when God gave His law to Moses on the mount, Moses' encounter with God was accompanied by signs so dramatic, fire, smoke, a trumpet, a thundering voice, that even Moses himself knew it was the voice of God and Hebrews 12 says he was fearful. And thus began the first period of revelation. And Moses recorded the truth of the Pentateuch, the five books, and Joshua wrote the book that bears his name.

Other books were added intermittently after the time of Moses and Joshua, Samuel probably wrote Judges and 1 and 2 Samuel. David wrote the Psalms, Solomon penned most of the wisdom literature, but those books were not accompanied by the great outpouring of miracles that had distinguished the days Moses and Joshua. They were kind of a continuation in some ways of that revelatory era.

Second major cluster of miraculous events accompanied a new era of Biblical revelation, the age of the Old Testament prophets. Following Solomon's reign, a nation of Israel divided into the northern kingdom Israel, a southern king of Judah. The northern kingdom quickly deteriorated because of idolatry and hit a low point under King Ahab. You remember his wife Jezebel. At that time God raised up two spokesmen, Elijah and Elisha. The prophetic office in their lifetime was marked by dramatic miracles to certify them as the spokesmen for God and to call back the people to God. The prophets that followed them were the continuation of that era.

Then when that era closed out and the Old Testament was done, there was a 400 year period of silence in which no prophet spoke for God and no miracle is recorded to have occurred. Then came the New Testament and the first miracle was a virgin birth, and then the miracles began to flow out of the life of Christ, and then began to flow out of His apostles. Why? Because it was a new era of writing the revelation of God, the New Testament. Always, the miracles were associated with a certification of those who were giving us God's revelation.

Second point, and that is the point we just led into. Miracles authenticated the messengers of Revelation. They only happened in three eras and they authenticated the messengers of Revelation. Elijah raised the widow's dead son and what was the widow's reply? Verse 24 of 1 Kings 17, she said, "Now I know that you are a man of God and that the Word of the Lord in your mouth is truth." That's a very important verse. That's the whole purpose, so that anybody listening to Elijah would know this man is a man of God and in his mouth is the Word of the Lord and it is true.

You come into the New Testament of John 10, Jesus having a confrontation with the Jewish religious leaders. They challenged Him. "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you're the Christ, tell us plainly." Jesus said, "I told you and you don't believe. The works that I do in my Father's Name, these bear witness of Me." He was saying, "The miraculous works that I do authenticate Me and My message as being from God."

In his Pentecost sermon, Peter told the crowd that Jesus was a man attested to them by God with miracles, wonders and signs. And the same kind of power belonged to the apostles. You'll remember that on Paul's first missionary journey, he and Barnabas were ministering in Aconium and it says they were speaking boldly with reliance on the Lord who was bearing witness to the word of His grace, granting that signs and wonders be done by their hands. The love of that is always the intention of the miracle. God does not need to do miracles for everybody to accomplish His will. He does not need to do miracles for every Christian every day to prove His love. He does not need to do miracles every day to make people believe He exists. He only authenticates the Word and when the authenticated Word is revealed, there is no need any longer to authenticate a preacher. You can find out whether he speaks for God by comparing him with this.

And God can still control everything without ever doing a miracle through providence. It's foolish to assume that everybody should be able to do a miracle, that we can go to a seminar in four days and learn how to do miracles. It's equally foolish to assume that God's gonna do miracles for you every day. People who keep saying they saw this miracle and that miracle have got caught up in the fact that everything is a miracle and their definition of miracles lacks greatly Biblical parameters.

The apostles performed miracles, signs and wonders in Acts 5. Why? To call attention to the fact that they were supernatural servants of the living God who spoke the truth. In Acts 15, it says the whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the miraculous signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. These things that mark an apostle, signs and wonders and miracles, Paul said to the Corinthians, were done among you. They mark an apostle.

Moses, Joshua introduced an era of revelation. Elijah, Elisha introduced an era of revelation. Jesus and the apostles introduced an era of revelation and with all the spokesmen and no written Word, with all the spokesmen, God had to authenticate the right spokesman and so He gave them the power to do supernatural things in order that people might know this is no human, mortal teacher. This is a man of God who speaks the truth.

Thirdly, and tied right in with the others. Miracles are designed to call attention to the revelation. Miracles are designed to call attention to the revelation. God did the miracle so the people would listen to the Word and see it as His truth. The miracle didn't stand alone, that's the point. God doesn't do miracles for miracles' sake. The purpose of the miracle was the effect of the miracle. For example, the miracles Moses did in Egypt were meant to enlighten two groups, the Israelites and the Egyptians. In Exodus 7, we read about Moses' first miracles and it was then that the Israelites started to believe in the power of their God. Pharaoh was a hard case. He didn't believe until the tenth miracle, the death angel. Then he finally let them go. But the purpose of the miracle was not just to stand on its own, but the purpose of the miracle was to get people to understand that God had something to say.

The miracles of Elijah and Elisha were effective in convincing both believers and unbelievers that what these men spoke was the Word of God and graphic illustration of that can be seen in 1 Kings 18 where Elijah defeated 400 prophets of Baal before a large crowd of Israelites and the Scripture says, "When all the people saw it, they fell on their faces, they said, 'The Lord, He is God. The Lord, He is God.'" They believed.

In the New Testament, miracles and signs were again used to confirm believers and convince unbelievers. John said the miracles of Jesus were done so that, "You might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and believing you might have life in His Name." And the same was true with the apostolic miracles.

Only three eras always to authenticate those who spoke the revelation of God and always with the purpose of pointing to the revelation so that it is the revelation that is the important thing. Beloved, I submit to you that if you have this book in your hand, you have what is the end product of God's miraculous intervention. This is the purpose for which He did the miracles. You posses this, you don't need the miracles. You have what God intended them to produce, and that is why Jesus said it as simply as it could be said, "If they do not believe Moses and the prophets," that is Scripture, "they will not believe though someone be raised from the dead." You must remember the people of Israel who saw the miracles of Moses, the whole generation died in the wilderness in what? Unbelief. You must remember that the people who heard the prophets speak for God for the most part refuse to believe. One whole kingdom apostatized, the northern kingdom, and in the southern, only a remnant. All those who saw the miracles of Jesus did not believe. Only a small group, and when it came down to it in the book of Acts, there were 120 of them dedicated enough to believing the Lord that they were waiting for the coming of the Holy Spirit.

Miracles have never produced wholesale belief. They can't. They are intended to point to the truth and it is the truth which produces faith. Of course, as the Spirit energizes it. Now the question comes, are miracles necessary today? When the Old and New Testament were completed, God's revelation was finished. Through many signs and wonders, He has authenticated the voracity of this book. Anybody who reads it can see that it's true.

Does God have to keep doing miracles? Is there a need for ongoing miracles to substantiate the Bible? Should everybody with faith claim a miracle? Does God do miracles on demand? Are the phenomena that are occurring today hail to signs and wonders and healings really necessary and authentic? The answer to all those questions is no. Nothing in Scripture indicates that the miracles of the apostles' age were meant to be continuous. You keep reading in the book of Acts and you'll get to the part in the book of Acts where you finally say to yourself, "I haven't read a miracle in a long time," and you'll finish the whole book and never see another one. They had begun to cease even during the book of Acts.

Charismatic believe that the spectacular, miraculous gifts were given for the edification of believers. Does God's Word support that? No. They were not given for the edification for believers. They were not give to edify Christians. They are a sign for those who do not believe, for those who need to see that this is God's Word. Whether you're talking about tongues or healings or miracles, they served as signs to authenticate an era in which God was giving new revelation and people needed to listen. B.B. Warfield, that great Presbyterian professor, a past generation, writing in 1898, said, "Miracles do not appear on the pages vagrantly, here, there and elsewhere indifferently without a signable reason. They belong to revelation periods and appear only when God is speaking to His people through accredited messengers, declaring His gracious purpose. Their abundant display in the apostolic church is the mark of the richness of the apostolic age in revelation." You realize, don't you, that between 36 and 95, all 27 books of the New Testament were written and so there was a proliferation of authentication because of the vast volume of literature being revealed in a brief period of time. Warfield goes on, "When this revelation period closed, the period miracle working had past by also as a mere matter of course. God the Holy Spirit has made it His subsequent work not to introduce new and unneeded revelations into the world, but to diffuse this one complete revelation through the world and to bring mankind into the saving knowledge of it."

Abraham Kuiper, B.B. Warfield actually wrote in 1918, Kuiper wrote this in 1898. Abraham Kuiper, the Dutch theologian writes, "It has not been God's way to communicate to each and every man a separate store of divine knowledge of his own to meet his separate needs, but He rather has spread a common board for all and invites all to come and partake of the richness of the great feast." I wanna stop in that quote to say that is such a very important rebuke to the contemporary Charismatic movement which assumes that God talks to everybody individually, has special revelation for everybody, separate information for everybody to meet everybody's individual need. That is not the case. Abraham Kuiper is right when he says, "He has spread a common board for all and invites all to come and partake of the richness of the great feast. He has given to the world one organically complete revelation, adapted to all, sufficient for all, provided for all, and from this one completed revelation, He requires each to draw His whole spiritual sustenance. Therefore, it is that the miraculous working which is but the sign of God's revealing power, cannot be expected to continue and in point of fact, does not continue after the revelation of which it is the accompaniment has been completed." Great statement, great statement.

In Acts 7, as Stephen preached his famous sermon, he talked about Moses who performed wondrous signs in the land of Egypt and in the Red Sea and in the wilderness and, "received living oracles to pass on to you," Stephen said. Know how God's Word draws the parallel between Moses' signs and the living oracles, the direct revelation from God which He was to pass on. Hebrews 2:3-4 confirms that the validation of the New Testament writers was purposed to cause folks to see them as the agents of God's revelation. "How shall we escape if we neglect so great salvation after it was at first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard God bearing witness with them by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit." He was authenticating the apostles, the writers of Scripture.

Does God promise miracles for everybody? No, He never has; it's not their purpose. You hear Charismatics say, "God has a special miracle for you today." No, He doesn't. "You better be seeking your private miracle. If you're not getting it it's because you don't believe strongly enough." Not true. By the way, Jesus didn't do any private miracles. They were all public, and they were as I said, to authenticate the one who spoke for God.

There's so much more that can be said about this, and there'll be much more in the book, but I just wanna wrap this up in the last five minutes or so. If you're going to say that God is doing miracles today, then, and be Biblically consistent, you're going to have to say that God is also what? Giving what? Revelation. And if God is giving revelation, it will be coming through the people who are what? Doing the miracles. And I will say this for the Charismatics. They're at least logically consistent in that sense. They've got the whole package. God is giving revelation, He's still giving it. The people who are getting it have miracle power, in their view. And what is the next logical step? To call them apostles, and that's what they're doing.

We're now having a pretty common movement in the Charismatic movement, labeling people as apostles, Earl Polk, quite a prominent Charismatic, teaches that certain individuals have been called to be apostles. Jack Dear, former professor at Dallas Seminary, the chief theologian of John Wimber's movement, isn't certain the apostolic ministry is functioning today, but he told a workshop in Sydney, he is convinced that apostolic power is coming. Listen to this, "And the new apostolic age will be greater than the first."

We're gonna get the whole package back, new apostles doing new signs and wonders, receiving new revelation to produce a new Bible? You wanna look at this very carefully, beloved. This almost looks like a plot to deceive the whole church, doesn't it? The apostolic office isn't for today. The church was founded on the apostles. Ephesians 2:20, they were the foundation. You don't put the foundation on the 20thstory. The apostles were all eye witnesses to the resurrection, eye witnesses to the risen Christ. They were chosen personally by Jesus Christ. They were authenticated by miraculous signs. They had absolute authority, and they were given an eternal, unique place of honor. Revelation 21:14 says that, "Heaven, the city of the new Jerusalem, has a wall with 12 foundation stones and on them are the 12 names of the 12 apostles of the Lamb." There were only 12. You can argue who the 12thwas. Some say Mathias, some say Paul, Judas being excluded. You might wanna say Mathias, and Paul was an apostle in due time, kind of an addendum. But the point is, there are only 12 of those honored places. Each of them will rule over one of the 12 tribes of Israel in the kingdom. There's not room for more than 12, folks. They're a special breed, they had no successors. The age of apostles is over 'cause the age of authentication is over because the age of revelation is over.

You say, "Oh, MacArthur, you have a weak view of God." No, I don't. I have a strong view of God. I think He's consistent with Himself and I think He's true to His revelation. Jerry Horner, associate professor of Biblical literature, Oral Roberts said, "Who in the world wants a God that's lost all His zip?" Well, has God lost His zip? Has He done nothing significant in 2,000 years? That's hardly the case. He's got plenty of zip. In fact, He's able to do exceeding abundantly beyond all you can ask or think, according to the power that works in us. He had a special purpose for the eras of revelation. He has a different purpose now, just as powerful, just as wonderful. Don't buy into the deception that there's something beyond the Scripture because that's what this deception is saying. That there's somebody getting a revelation, that there's somebody with apostolic authority, that miracles are supposed to be happening all over the place. It's not true. It's not consistent with Scripture.

Father, we thank You that we can look at Your Word tonight and in just this brief time discern its truth again. Help us to have that discernment, and Lord, help us to believe that You don't have to do a miracle to show Yourself. Providence in many ways is a greater miracle than a miracle. It would be easier to do something supernatural than it is to orchestrate all of the infinite contingencies of life and make them work Your purpose, but You do it every moment of every day. Thank You for Your Word which needs no update for the authenticated messengers gave us the once for all delivered to the saints faith on which we rest. We ask, Lord, that You will keep us true to Your truth. Don't let us get led astray, for Jesus' sake, Amen.


desmond2020
post Jul 5 2017, 12:52 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 5 2017, 11:05 AM)
Bible never specified miracles is for specific who...He's wrong in this. He's trying put circumstance as the truth over the Bible when He should put up Bible truth first over circumstance. Just because there are genuines Christians who never got healed does not mean God was not willing. The Problem is the unrealistic expectation that the person MUST be healed immediately...I think that is the problem for concluding as such.

If Jesus did say my miracle is not for Mr. Steven......then I would agree MacArthur will have his point but Bible never say such thing.
Quote me which verse in the Bible that support his statement

"Does God promise miracles for everybody? No, He never has" ...................I will surrender to you.  notworthy.gif

I dare challenge his statement by saying this.
Anyone who came to Jesus was all Healed, so who says God promise of miracles is not for everybody? How does He qualify that statement? The HUGE irony is that MacArthur puts the clause, the reason people didn't receive is because they didn't believe strong enough when the very fact his teaching is the one who caused it to be nullified.

He should encourage believers to continue believing and praying...That is biblical rather than shut off the Faith.

How will he answer  Persistent Widow in Luke 18?

Luke 18:7-8(NIV) -  And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? 8I tell you, He will promptly carry out justice on their behalf. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on earth?”…
*
The claim that Jesus heal everyone that come to him


well I read the gospel, four of them, a few time to check. But sadly I can't agree to statement


I do believe God heal. Always he is healer


But not through a human agency unless God need to authenticate such person for revelation.


Remember faith is direct between God and us via Jesus as the high priest. So should be healing


God has plan. Plan that mere mortals won't understand. Heal he will but only according to his plan


Remember what Jesus pray the night before he was crucified
desmond2020
post Jul 5 2017, 01:03 PM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Jul 5 2017, 12:57 PM)
Don't angry with me but I believe this is what stops you from receiving, you can't agree means you don't believe God's miracle is for anyone who approach Him.

I did ask you, what is so special about me? you mean God heals me because that is according to his will?

Well what did I do to be in his will? I'll tell you nothing. I wasn't really a shining exemplary Christian obeying everything God commanded.

All I did was to be convinced God is more than willing to Heal as according to how Jesus healed to all that came to Him.

My faith was small...small as mustard seed but I believe as how the Bible asked me.

That is all.
*
No my friend


God heal not only christian, but every human beings if he so wish. Like sunlight and rain that fall on believer and non believer. For he is full of mercy. But God has plan for everything. Suffering such as disease is just part of it
desmond2020
post Aug 1 2017, 08:36 PM

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5 Reasons The “Prosperity Gospel” Is Actually A Non-Christian Religion
April 28, 2017 by Benjamin L. Corey



Does being a good and faithful Christian result in good health, a long life, having an abundance of possessions, and material wealth?

That’s the subtle/not so subtle belief of a brand of Christianity that’s often called the “prosperity gospel.”
There is a growing number of Christians who believe that– a shocking amount, actually. And not just in the United States, either– this is a growing belief around the world. I think this is happening in large part because charismatic Christianity is the fastest growing brand of Christianity in many places, and the prosperity gospel is something that seems to have infected charismatic circles more than others.
While I believe we as Christians ought be careful about declaring who is in and who is out (I feel the wrath of the heretic hunters, so I know what that’s like), when it comes to this belief system that associates being a good Christian with materialism, health, and wealth, we cannot be silent or tip-toe over words: the prosperity gospel is completely outside the Christian religion. It’s not Christianity, period.
Here’s 5 reasons why:


5. The prosperity gospel encourages us to be money focused instead of people focused.
Within the prosperity movement, the ultimate goal is how to get from here (lack of material wealth) to there (an abundance of material wealth).
This places the ultimate focus of this religion on materialism– but that’s not what Christianity is focused on.
Christianity is a religion that is focused on other people– how to love other people, how to disciple other people in the ways of Jesus, and how to be the tangible agent of God in the lives of others. Nothing about true Christianity is about self– in fact, Jesus said to become a Christian you actually had to die to self.


4. The prosperity gospel promotes a performance based religion.
Christianity is not a religion about performance, but the prosperity gospel is all about performance.
The prosperity gospel teaches that if you do X, Y, and Z (one of them usually involves sending money into a guy on TV) that you will get more in return (a concept they call “sowing”). This paradigm sees God’s favor as something you earn by doing, instead of something you receive freely by God’s grace alone.
In fact, Jesus blew this concept out of the water when he described God’s love and favor as being like the rain which falls upon those who do good and those who do evil. He even went on to say that God is actually kind to the wicked.
But instead of seeing God’s love and blessing as something freely given through his grace, the prosperity gospel associates God’s favor with right behavior, and interprets hard times as God holding back his favor. But according to the Bible, none of that is true.


3. The prosperity gospel promotes one of the most frequently condemned sins in Scripture: greed.
The prosperity gospel is a gospel of more, and that completely stands against what Christianity is about.
One of the most frequently condemned sins in scripture is that of greed, even going so far as to say that greed is idolatry. In fact, the apostle Paul found greed to be such a repulsive form of idolatry that he commanded Christians to refuse to even share meals with someone who claimed to be Christian, but was greedy.
Instead, the Christian message is one of learning to be content with what you have. In the 10 Commandments we’re taught to not “covet” which is the same as saying, “thou shalt be content with what you have.” Again, Paul talks about this and recognizes that life will have cycles where you have plenty, and cycles where you don’t have enough, but that what God wants for us in all those places is to be content with what we have.
Bottom line: if you have what you need, but still want more– especially while others go without– you are greedy, and this sin is biblically considered wickedness, even if modern society (and Americanized Christianity) excuses it.


2. The prosperity gospel promotes elitism among the body of Christ.
One of the central beliefs of Christianity is that we are all on an equal playing field in God’s eyes. We are all created in the image of God and have unsurpassable worth, so much so that Jesus died for us. For those of us who are Christians, the Bible says we are all part of “one body” and that we are equal. However, the prosperity gospel has a way of creating an elite status of Christians– because if you’re really rich, it must be because you’re doing it better than everyone else.
Case in point: a few years ago prosperity preachers Kenneth Copeland and Jesse Duplantis argued that they needed to fly in private jets because flying commercial on an airline was like getting in a “long tube with a bunch of demons.” They also lamented how annoying it would be for people to come up to them and ask for prayer… thus, they “need” to fly in private jets.
This kind of disgusting elitism is not just outside of Christianity, it’s opposed to Christianity. It in no way reflects the homeless Jesus who hung out with the worst of sinners.



1. The prosperity gospel perverts God’s purpose in material blessing.
Can or does God bless with material excess? Certainly! The Bible says that every good and perfect gift we receive comes from God. But the prosperity gospel forgets that, in occasions where God blesses someone with financial or material excess, that blessing comes with a specific purpose: to bless others.
When God gives us more than what we need, he does so in the hopes that we will honor him by sharing it with others who don’t have enough. The early church in the book of Acts actually founded the earliest Christian community on this premise– when they had more than needed, they shared their wealth so that there were “no poor among them.”
The idea that God gives some people more than what they need so that they can enjoy the high-life of luxury while people around them die of hunger and illness, is a disgusting perversion of the actual Gospel.

There’s plenty of things that are killing the church today, but one of the biggest things killing the church is the rise of a false, anti-Christ religion that so many people mistakenly believe is part of Christianity.
Let me be blunt: the prosperity gospel and those who preach it are not part of the Christian religion. They just made up their own religion of materialism and are falsely calling it “Christian.”




desmond2020
post Aug 14 2017, 01:44 PM

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Sep 5 2017, 10:50 AM
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post Aug 14 2017, 01:54 PM

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post Aug 16 2017, 09:29 AM

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post Aug 16 2017, 10:51 AM

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post Aug 17 2017, 10:17 AM

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post Aug 17 2017, 10:25 AM

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