Which is a better food for dog?

This post has been edited by genjo: Dec 14 2010, 02:15 PM

neither.
Find a brand that contains no corn, by-products, sugar or artificial flavoring. Then you will probably have a good food.

any brand to suggest?

orijen, acana, natural balance etc etc....... there are so many good brands out there.
if budget constraints then go for blackwood. :-)

DON'T GO FOR BLACKWOOD... most of their ingredients lists start with Corn and Poultry By-products.. both very very bad ingedients. If you want something in that price range choose Health Foods.

The rest are ok. I would add Canidae and now! to that list. There are other good foods out there, just look at the ingredients.

tl; dr version: It's not worth scrimping on the quality of your dog's food, you risk chronic health problems and might end up paying more in vet bills in the long run.

Long version:
@TS: Do a search for the brands you're interested in at Dog Food Analysis to get a general idea. Even for premium brands usually rated among the best of the best like Orijen, Innova etc. don't necessarily suit all dogs for a variety of reasons (dog is allergic to certain kinds of meat/high levels of protein stress the kidneys esp older dogs and could cause shedding etc.). Generally try out brands from the mid to upper range and find out which food suits your dog best (anywhere from 2 weeks to 1 month to see effects).

If you're on a budget Avoderm is acceptable. Some dogs can't take avocado which is in its ingredients list tho, so be careful about that. I've also tried California Natural canned food with good results (cheaper than premium brands by RM2 per can) when I was looking for a good food with lower protein content to suit an elderly dog with kidney issues I'm fostering. Not sure about California Natural kibbles and pricing but they're available at Sea Park pet supplies in SS2.

As for Purina and Eukanuba, personally would never feed either brand to my dogs. Bad bad food with too much grain and additives, plus the company that makes Eukanuba/IAMS is well known for cruelty in animal testing (for the record I don't support PETA and never will, they're hypocritical jackasses but at least their immense publicity budget enables them to highlight animal cruelty cases).

You're probably going to get quite a few people telling you "but I fed my dog XYZ brand dog food (with crappy ingredients and harmful additives) for years and he/she was fine", but bear in mind that 1) Their dog could have been an exceptionally lucky genetic freak of nature (like my bf's first dog he had as a kid, he was fed whatever the family ate including harmful stuff that contained chocolate and lived up to 15 years lol), 2) Their dog was fine for the first few years of its life when it was still young and able to withstand a bad diet - then their digestive systems started failing when they got older/other diet-related problems came up but the owners blamed it on bad genes/other factors, 3) To paraphrase a quote from here: "My dog ate ______ lots of times and was fine, so ______ isn't bad food for dogs." That logic is no better than "My dog runs in the street all the time and has never been hit by a car, so dogs never get hit by cars."

omg... first brand i use is pro plan and now use half i buy eukanuba. I mix them together.... hahaha

i think wait till finish use first only change. hopefully nothing happened

keep this thread up!!!
how about pedigree and alpo??

i heard pedigree is a bad brand.... is it true?

One experience I have with Eukanuba is the poo is stinky! Not just my dog, but another friends dog also had really smelly poo on Eukanuba. On Science Plan the poo is very loose, and a lot, so it was hard to clean. Also quite smelly. Not very nice if your dog poos in the house, or you leave it in the garden for a whole day before you come home and clean it.

My dog was ok on Blackwood catfish and sweet potato, but I personally didn't like it because the food smelled weird and I was always worried it was going off (but its a dried food, shouldn't be off, but it just smelled weird).

I'm using a premium Korean brand called Ishkan now, its a bit pricy and not in the DogFoodAnalysis website, but the ingredients look ok (think it has rice or barley or something) with chicken. Theres no lamb version unfortunately.
Both dogs have really shiny coats on Ishkan, and both like it, even the picky eater will eat it. Dog poo is pretty good, firm, not too smelly and a small amount.
One thing is that it seems my sensitive and allergicky dog is doing better since I put her on Ishkan (now 2 months already), or the Ishkan+Blackwood Catfish diet(for 2-3 months before pure Ishkan). Shes not so itchy. But the petshop lady recommends this brand for long coat dogs since its high protein. Also to feed a bit less compared to the other brands

I tried Natural Balance, its ok too but my fussy dog has to mix it with canned food so its pretty expensive for me, and I can't find the 15 kilo packing here.

Pedigree and Alpo are the benchmark for bad dog foods. They are pretty much the worst of the worst as far as kibble is concerned. I don't think there is a single good ingredient in either of them. If i remember correctly the first ingredient for both of them is some kind of corn (Which means there is more corn in the food then anything else... basically its flour). They don't use single source whole meat proteins which makes the food unstable and (Pedigree definitly, not sure about Alpo) uses artificial coloring... do you really think your dog cares what color his food is?

@byaku-chan - Fantastically written, i agree with everything you said. Reading your post puts a big smile on my face knowing there are more people out there who actually take the time to look into what a dog really needs rather than just listen to what a pet shop/vet tells them.

@Sashan - Ishkan was introduced to me recently, i don't remember exactly what the ingredients are in the dog kibble but i know the cat version is excellent and produces similar results (shiny coat) as you have mentioned.
The Blackwood catfish thing is a relatively decent food, however i have major issues with the comapny itself. They started out making a food very similar in ingredients to Pedigree, put it in a shiny bag and sold it for the same price as super super premium foods. Then when they lost a bit of popularity because someone actually looked at the ingredients, they dropped the price but seemed to keep pretty much the same ingredients list. Then with the recent boom in sales of holistic and hypoallergenic food, woosh catfish and watever it is pops up, which conforms to the general public's knowledge of what is good and bad for dogs at the moment. I understand that dog food is big business, however i prefer to stick to companies that as a whole do their own research into what dogs need and produce foods with high quality ingredients from day 1.

I'm using Orijen but I find that My dog gets heaty with the food. She hardly poo after eating it so I buy another packet of 1st Choice pet food and mix with orijen lol. Yeah agreed with Sashan, my cousin feed her shih tzu with eukanuba and my god, the poo is very very very smelly. She switch to Blackwood and the food is not good too, according to her. I personally think that alpo and pedigree is rubbish? I once thought that Purina Pro Plan is a good brand but after listening to advice from LYN members last time, I found that the Pro Plan pet food is also rubbish lol.

But then, my cousin bought Canidae, she say it's a good brand which contains lower protein (Something like fattening ingredients, I think) for lap dog/small breed as they rarely exercise and Orijen would make them grow very fat lol. I planned to try Canidae ... What do you guys think? And also science plan, anyone tried it?

This post has been edited by JeanneHoe94: May 5 2010, 07:03 PM

halo, lamb and fish no corn............
Blackwood is not a bad brand at its price, average at it range.

Just did a check on Blackwood's website. Most of their products has either corn or rice as their 2nd main ingredient, which is not good. 1st 2 ingredients should preferably be not rice or corn.

For those who asked about Pedigree/Alpo, what Divas said, it's super mega bad food lol. Basically the human equivalent of eating nothing but Twisties/cheese rings everyday.

I suspect Natural Balance doesn't taste too good so it'll put off fussier dogs. Tried the canned food (Duck and Potato) and my adult mutt and elderly foster dog sniffed then refused to eat it. My neighbour's border collie (also quite picky) didn't want to eat his Natural Balance kibble either. It's supposed to be one of the better brands but my bf's sheltie, my lab pup and foster beagle pup all got really runny poo on it - I wonder what ingredient wreaks havoc with their digestive system! I've heard of other dogs that do well on NB but for some reason it's Kryptonite to all my dogs lol.


Cheers, I actually had to learn the hard way when I got my first dog who was a picky eater His pickiness turned out to be a good thing cos it made me do my own research about proper dog nutrition after he refused to eat rubbish food a vet recommended (Science Plan). Most vets will push Science Plan as they have dealerships with them, it's pretty ironic how a lot of vets here will push inferior food when their profession is dedicated to pet health! I have a vet friend who tells it like it is and frankly wouldn't feed his own dogs stuff that's on the shelves of most vet practices here, which is something to think about.


Science Plan is rubbish IMO. Quite pricey yet full of crap. Vets and pet shops love to recommend it for some reason, maybe the profit margin is high or something lol. It was one of the first brands I tried based on a vet's recommendation, I was ignorant about dog food then and figured if a vet says it's good it should be good right? My dog refused to eat it! My neighbour's border collie was recently recommended Science Plan - and my neighbour was stunned to find ants crawling all over his poop! Makes you wonder what stuff they put in it that a dog isn't able to digest, comes out in poop and attracts ants

Not tried Canidae but the ingredients list is quite good. It should be one of the better foods out there. Whether Canidae will work out better for your dog depends on her dietary needs - what's your main priority? If you're sure that high protein levels is causing "heatiness" in your dog then Canidae might be a better option as most of their food has lower protein compared to Orijen. In general, a high protein diet is great for most dogs and shouldn't cause stress on the organs. A notable exception is when a dog already has a preexisting liver/kidney problem, then you'd go for a diet with less protein which is the case with an elderly dog I'm fostering.

If your main concern is weight gain, then Canidae will actually be more likely to fatten up your dog compared to Orijen as most of their food contains grain. More grain = more carbohydrates. Protein doesn't fatten up dogs, carbs + fat content are what you should be looking at in the ingredients list if you want to figure out how fattening a dog food is. Canidae has two grain-free types of food which look very good (Salmon Meal; All Life Stages) but they're very high protein like Orijen so you might get a similar result. If you feed the Canidae varieties with grain - on one hand there's significantly less protein, on the other there are a lot more carbs.

Here's a nutritional comparison between Orijen and Canidae food (grabbed the ingredients list off Dog Food Analysis) which might help you understand better what I'm talking about:



See how much higher the carb content is in Canidae's Chicken & Rice/Lamb & Rice/Beef & Fish varieties compared to their grain-free types and Orijen's? One possible solution is if you want lower protein content yet don't want your dog to gain a lot of weight, you can try feeding your dog less if you switch to Canidae food with grain (perhaps the Lamb & Rice or Beef & Fish variety which is lower in fat).

would like to hear you guys opinion about addiction. thnx

I think i love you... This is the first time i have met someone on this forum who has such a deep understanding of canine nutrition and a firm grasp of what is good and what isn't (or at least the first time someone else has spoken up about it in such a concise and easy to understand manner).
I too am a strong believer that Science Plan/Science Diet/Hills is a totally poo food. The only exception i find is that the Formula for dogs with kidney failure does seem to improve the life of dogs with severe kidney problems. All the other varieties don't seem to produce any different results than a high quality normal food in sick dogs and doesn't keep a healthy dog as healthy as high quality normal foods.
Science Plan claims that it works by using a different production method to other foods that breaks down the ingredients into smaller chunks which eliminates the allergens in corn and such. However if you just didn't use ingredients that are known to be common causes of allergies (and other problems) in dogs, this wouldn't be an issue. Also there are some cases where dogs still exhibit the same symptoms they did previously showing that it doesn't in fact work in every case.
Also (the last time i checked) the nutritional values for Science Plan are lacking in almost every way. The easiest one to see is the Protein content which is much lower than you would want to see in a pet food for healthy active pets, or for pets who need as much energy as possible to fight off whatever they are suffering from.
I do know that only certified vets are allowed to order Science Plan and it does have quite a high profit margin compared to most other food brands which makes it an attractive sale. Also Science Plan has been known to be one of the main sponsors for a number of vet text books.
I'm not saying all vets are pushing Science Plan just for an attractive profit, but there are better foods out there (and i have heard of a few vets who prefer to suggest high quality brands over Science Plan) but some do, i have personally be "prescribed" Science Plan (suggested use for life in all cases) for Ringworm infection, Digestive Tract sensitivity, Picky eater and an Oversized Golden who is at high risk of developing Hip-Displasia in later life, all of which have been managed and (in the cases where possible) cured without the use of Science Plan.



Undecided from me, i don't personally like it but there is no major nutritional or ingredient issue that i can identify. The ingredients in their different varieties are very different so its quite hard to discuss them as a whole. Overall their ingredients are good and they do have some excellent ingredients, but the choose not to put them in all their foods. This is a great site 'Food Analyisis' with very easy to read analysis of a number of different foods (the link goes directly to the Addiction analysis).
Protein is a little on the high side for my liking (i generally find a protein content of 24% - 26% is just right for most dogs) at 29% but this isn't a major issue for a dog that gets plenty of exercise.

The only major issues i have with Addiction is firstly the price (the last time i did a price check was around 6 months ago so i don't know how accurate it is now). It seems a little on the high side for what it is, and i am always a little wary of foods that use fancy packaging (i understand it is to get your attention but if the food really is THAT good, they don't need to and would be better spending the money on researching to improve their food. The other issue i have is their new 'raw food diet'. I don't think, with current manufacturing processes, that a commercial raw food diet is the best way to go.
The whole benefit of BARF is that you know exactly what your dog is eating and where it comes from, also looking at the history of how commercial kibble developed (starting with brands like Pedigree and Alpo and them moving onwards and upwards to the better brands that are around today) i would be wary of using a 'new form' of commercial food so close to its introduction to the market.


Perhaps people can post the ingredients list and Nutritional analysis of dog foods they want to know about (choose one or 2 specific variety that you are interested in) and then we can discuss the specific ingredients that are good and bad and everyone can get an idea of what to look out for

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Added on May 6, 2010, 2:55 pmYes their catfish variety does conform to the preferred ingredients for a good dog food and yes lamb and rice doesn't contain corn, but it still has its negative points. So here goes, first up Lamb and Rice:

Ingredient list:

Lamb Meal, Rice Flour, Oatmeal, Poultry Meal, Ground Rice, Plain Dried Beet Pulp (Sugar Removed), Poultry Fat [Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols (Source of Vitamin E) and Citric Acid], Dried Tomato Pomace, Menhaden Fish Meal, Lecithin, Vegetable Oil, Dried Cheese, Monosodium Phosphate, Fish Oil, DL-Methionine, Choline Chloride, Dried Enterococcus Faccium Fermentation Products, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Yucca Schidigera Extract, Salt, L-Lysine, Ascorbic Acid (Source of Vitamin C), Dried Garlic, Vitamin A Acetate, D-Activated Animal Sterol (Source of Vitamin D3), Vitamin E Supplement, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (Source of Vitamin K Activity), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Niacin Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid, Biotin, Manganese Sulfate, Maganous Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Iron Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, Copper Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Zinc Oxide, Zinc Sulfate, Potassium Iodide, Potassium Chloride, Sodium Selenite.

GUARANTEED ANALYSIS:

Crude Protein, not less than..........24.00%
Crude Fat, not less than................14.00%**
Crude Fiber, not more than.............4.00%
Moisture, not more than..................9.00%

So first of all we look at the first 5 ingredients purely as ingredients, there is Lamb meal (which is good) Rice flour (which is ok), Oatmeal (also ok), Poultry Meal (not a good ingredient), and Ground rice (fine). Now look at them as a whole, in a good food you need to have at least 2 single source meats, Blackwood Lamb and Rice has one. Next you will always find some kind of filler in the top 5, but it is best to have a maximum of 2, Blackwood has 3 which indicates that this food is probably more grain than anything else. Yes they have used higher quality grains (rice and oats) but still grains, and a lot of them.
I have saved Poultry Meal for last as this is the main ingredient i have a problem with. 'Poultry' in dog foods means a combination of Chicken, Duck and Turkey First off, this means that Blackwood Lamb and Rice contains some other meats than Lamb, also because it is not a single source meat this means that the amount of chicken, duck or turkey can vary in each bag... this is not a good thing! Dog kibble is supposed to be stable (dog's digestive system works best when it is given the same thing constantly, which is why if you change foods suddenly your dog usually gets diarrhea for a few days). If they were using the same amount of Chicken, Turkey and Duck in every batch, they would be listed as individual ingredients.
Poultry (and Poultry meal) usually consists of whatever meat surplus at the "supplier market" and so gets lumped into a 'bargain bin' of sorts and sold for a cheaper price because the exact content (percentage of chicken to duck to turkey) cannot be guaranteed.

We then look at the rest of the ingredients: Beet Pulp is a controversial ingredient and there is (as yet) no consensus on whether it is beneficial or not. We then have Poultry fat (same problem as Poultry Meal, not a stable ingredient). Tomato, Fish, Lecithin, Veg oil, all ok but nothing special. Dried Cheese is totally unneccesary and purely included for flavoring (which in a good dog food will be limited in most cases to 'natural flavorings' if anything), lower down the list there is also Salt and Dried Garlic which are again for flavoring purposes only (the amount of garlic contained would not be enough to cause toxicity which can be caused by garlic in dogs, it will also not be enough for any of the documented health benefits of garlic).
The last thing i want to discuss as far as the food is concerned are the "Dried Enterococcus Faccium Fermentation Products" and "Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product". I have as yet been unable to find an exact description of what these are, however from what i can tell from research i have done is that they are the left over products of the fermentation process to extract healthy bacteria (Lactobacillus Acidophilus is a form of bacteria and i'm assuming Enterococcus Faccium is as well). As i don't know specifically what these products are i can't comment definitively on their benefits or detremental effects, however usually in dog foods something that is a 'left over' product of some kind of process is a cheaper form of the ingredient that is readily available and safe for use (however higher priced) in dog foods.

As far as the Guaranteed Analysis goes (this one is from the internet), they don't guarantee much, but what they do guarantee is all within normal levels for a dog food. Good dog foods often have a full work up of vitamin and mineral content to look at.

Now i will briefly look at Blackwood 1000 ("for normally active adults")

Ingredients List:
Poultry Meal, Corn Meal, Chicken Fat [Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols (Source of Vitamin E) and Citric Acid], Dried Plain Beet Pulp (Sugar Removed), Ground Rice, Oatmeal, Dried Potato Product, Brewers Dried Yeast, Menhaden Fish Meal, Flax Meal, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Lecithin, L-Lysine, DL-Methionine, Dried Whey, Dried Cheese, Dried Garlic, Calcium Carbonate, Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid (Source of Vitamin C), Yucca Schidigera Extract, Dried Steptococcus Facium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Biotin, Niacin Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Acetate, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Thiamin Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Menadione Dimethylpyrimidinol Bisulfite (Source of Vitamin K Activity), Citric Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid, Potassium Chloride, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Manganous Oxide, Sodium Selenite, Calcium Iodate.

As most of the ingredients lower down are pretty much the same as the Lamb and Rice formula i will only discuss the first 5:
Poultry Meal (already discussed, bad bad bad), Corn Meal (corn is in the top 3 ingested allergens in dogs, bad bad bad), Chicken fat is a good ingredient (a million times better than the Poultry fat found in the lamb variety), Beet Pulp (already discussed), and Ground rice (one of the better fillers, although 'whole rice' is better as it contains the husks which are a good form of fiber (as long as they haven't been dusted with pesticides and other nasty chemicals).
So with the combination top 2 of Poultry meal and Corn meal, this is NOT a great or even a good food, and definitely not worth what you pay for it (you can find much better foods in the same price range).

Yes as you said, the Catfish variety is a decent food... however do you want to judge by the best they can offer or the worst. If Blackwood has no problems using sub par ingredients in the majority of its foods to get a favorable profit margin what makes you think they won't try to cut costs in every (non-visible) way possible in all their food varieties?

This post has been edited by Divas: May 6 2010, 03:00 PM

Arcana and orijen pls...

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Added on May 6, 2010, 11:18 pmseems to have some good review from this site

also i remember someone posted about high protein is good for your dog...but many others posted otherwise...im confused now...

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Added on May 6, 2010, 11:32 pma few google and it seems high protein is GOOD for your dog...a tldr site



This post has been edited by karwaidotnet: May 6 2010, 11:34 PM

Dog foods that I have tried & what I think after studying the ingredients. From the bad dog food list I only tried one brand. The one I can't remember the name but I believe it led my beloved 10 year old mongrel to his casket due to my dad trying to budget without me knowing.

My good dog food list:-

Orijen, Acana, Artemis, California Natural, Solid Gold, Organics.

My so-so dog food list:-

Eukanuba, Proplan, Blackwood, NutriEdge, Avoderm, Nutro.

My bad dog food list:-

Pedigree, Alpo, Science Diet, SmartHeart, Trusty, some american brand sold in TMC.

I read proctor n gamble bought over natura. Apparently after they bought over science plan n hills the quality went down the drain. So dunno how long Origen is gonna last as a good food?

@karwaidotnet: I've fed Addiction's canned food with good results for my adult mutt. Bf's sheltie sheds when on it though (hardly sheds when on Innova canned food). For the kibble I've fed the Kangaroo & Apple variety, adult mutt didn't seem to like the taste (he would eat grudginglylah, compared to Orijen where he'll happily eat). Pooped more and shed more. Ingredients-wise I'd rate their canned food really well, the kibble above average. Only fed Addiction kibble once since my mutt didn't like the taste so not sure what the price range is now, but at the time I bought it it cost significantly less than Orijen, Acana and Innova.

Also fed Acana to same dog, can't remember which type I fed but it had grain in it. He pooped a lot more, smellier too. This dog's tolerance for food with grain is especially bad so I just eliminate grain from his diet altogether. Some people's dogs do really well on it though.

Haha likewise, it's always great meeting someone who's really passionate about the wellbeing of their pets! Good to know you find Science Plan's prescription diet for dogs with kidney issues is an exception to their generally crappy food, the elderly dog I'm fostering w kidney issues might have to give that a try if her 2nd blood test results don't improve after a month on medication + reduced protein diet. Really really hope it doesn't come to that as she's quite a picky eater, laaaawd help me if I have to regress to force-feeding her like in the beginning =_=;;

As far as I understand from vet friends and reading up on commercial pet food, the main reason Science Plan/Hill's is so ubiquitous in vet practices is because they've got a lot of sponsorships/dealerships with vet schools (here's a lengthy article which mentions this for those of you interested in reading). The relationship continues when vets open their own practices and hook up with Hill's for lucrative dealerships. Same deal for breeders. I can only guess a lot of local pet shops push Hill's because the profit margin is really good (considering there are other crappy foods they can push but walk into a pet shop, act clueless and ask what's a good quality pet food and chances are the salesperson will direct you to the aisle with those oh so familiar shiny white bags of Science Plan kibble). I've had to shut my mouth often and stop myself from giving shoppers unsolicited advice when I overhear a salesperson tell innocently clueless shopper #214 how great Science Plan is. >_>

And yeah, thankfully there are good vets out there who are honest about what food to get or stock better quality selections. Can really empathise with you on encountering vets who prescribe Science Plan for everything under the sun (ringworm? srsly? lol). Parvo, picky eater, skin problems, mild infection - oh hey here's this really good prescription diet, I'm not going to justify or explain why it's good, trust me I'm a vet! (I'm a bit of a prat when interacting with not-so-great vets and clueless pet shop salespeople, I feign ignorance to see what kind of BS they feed me )


Wow, that really sucks. Orijen isn't made by Natura though. Hill's is owned by Colgate-Palmolive AFAIK.

Anyway P & G's acquisition's still a blow to me, I really like Natura's Innova/EVO/California Natural lines. What happens really depends on how much operational independence Natura retains after the acquisition. AP reported "Procter & Gamble said the acquisition gives it access to the holistic and naturals pet food segment, which will complement its existing Iams and Eukanuba brands." So it looks as if P & G is basically looking to own a line of "good" pet food alongside its crappy IAMS/Eukanuba lines so they've got both segments of the market covered - wouldn't make sense for them to mess with the good thing Natura's already got going.

Currently they claim to perform humane, non-invasive animal testing (@ What type of testing does Natura do?. If P & G's involvement is going to change that or if I see ingredient changes for the worse, adios.

Hi all Sifus here, since this thread is discussing bout kibble, i have a.question here, is Addiction Dalmon Bleau Puppy good for a 4 month min.schnauzer? Following are some basic info about this kibble...

Ingredients:
Salmon Meal, Potatoes, Chicken Fat (Free from Chicken Protein and naturally preserved with Mixed Tocopherols - a source of Vitamin E), Whole Smoked Salmon, Dried Blueberries, Dried Cranberries, Dried Raspberries, Calcium Carbonate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Potassium Chloride, Kelp Meal, Flaxseed Meal, Calcium Propionate, Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Calcium Iodate, Cobalt Carbonate, Sodium Selenite, Vitamin E, Riboflavin (Vitamin B2), Niacin(Vitamin B3), D-Pantothenic Acid (Vitamin B5), Thiamine (Vitamin B1), Vitamin A, Pyridoxine(Vitamin B6), Biotin (Vitamin B7), Folic Acid(Vitamin B9), Vitamin B12, Vitamin D3, Glucosamine.

Guaranteed analysis:
Crude Protein - (min) 28%
Crude Fat - (min) 14%
Crude Fibre - (max) 3%
Moisture - (max) 10%
Enterococcus faecium - 70 million CFU / lb
Lacotabacillus acidophilus - 100 million CFU / lb

I personnaly think that the overall ingredients are good and it is grain free, and salmon is good for the scnauzer as this breed can easily have skin problem.

I need to get other opinion or comment on this kibble, anyone can help?

Chicken oil is a so so ingredient right? I tot a real good dog food shouldnt use any animal oil?

Btw, i used to feed Inova Evo to my dog, although the protein is kinda high but he is ok with it, but it's kinda heaty... Stools are dry cracked, fur are rough.. And then i found out now! and go!...tried both and now i'm using go! Duck formula.. works really well on both of my dog... fur smoothier..less smelly stools..and nice stool color and texture..

These are the link for ingredients and info of the dog food:
http://www.petcurean.com/index.php?page_id=204
http://www.petcurean.com/index.php?page_id=179

Is oat good for dog? Coz i see there is oat ingredient in Go! Duck formula..

Oatmeal is very good fiber source for dog, it helps a lot in digestion and good for those who have sensitive stomach.

@karwaidotnet
Acana doesn't have any bad ingredients in it. I am a little wary about using food with very high meat content for dogs that don't have heavy exercise schedules (by heavy i mean working dogs and sled dogs that do a lot of strenuous activity every day) as they don't need so much protein. On the analyisis you provided they only gave the dry wight analysis (remove the moisture and that is what you have left) which is why the protein is at 36%. I only really deal with kibbles so don't remember off hand what dry weight numbers are good and bad. Checked on the Acana website and the Grasslands protein content is listed at 32% which compared to the 25ish% percent that i would advise for normally active dogs is very high. This isn't necessarily a bad thing as excess protein isn't converted to fat but it can put a strain on the kidneys if they are already damaged. For this one i would say it is a pretty great food ingredients wise, but maybe not necessarily the best choice for a normal house pet with a normal level of activity due to the high protein content (although you can be sure all the protein in there comes from great sources) . If your dog does well using Acana then by all means stick with it, but just keep an eye out (especially later in life) for signs of kidney issues and switch to a lower protein food if any do develop. The only major side effect i have heard to feeding (a healthy dog) high protein foods is softer stool so *shrugs*

Orijen is pretty much the same as Acana but with an even higher protein content (40% for the regular adult variety). So again i would say not a bad food ingredients wise but probably not the best choice for a dog with a normal pet lifestyle. I did find this about

So for your question about high protein levels, it isn't necessarily good or bad. It depends on the activity level of your dog. There was a study that i read about quite a while ago that stated that high protein levels causes kidney damage which is where the high protein = bad theory came from, however the research was apparently done on rats not dogs and since then there has been further studies done that shows very high protein levels doesn't affect (normal healthy) dog kidneys in the same manner it did the rats. However i still prefer to stay away from high protein foods for dogs with normal activity levels as there are great foods out there that have a more acceptable protein content.

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Added on May 7, 2010, 4:32 pm@^4ever_Fan+a5y^
The Addiction formula you posted looks fine to me. I have already stated my personal (although still totally unjustified) opinion about Addiction so will put that aside. The protein level is what you would expect to see in a Puppy formula and the ingredients used all appear to be good quality, healthy ingredients. One small worry for me is that the Chicken Fat is the third ingredient where i would usually expect to see a second meat but i don't think it would really cause any problems.
It is also interesting to note that Enterococcus faecium and Lacotabacillus acidophilus are listed in the guarantee (they are both good bacteria cultures that help keep the stomach flora healthy) which means they are found in one of the listed ingredients (this is a good thing rather than the Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product listed as an ingredient in some not so great foods which suggest the left over bits from extracting these bacteria).

Oats are (as eric138 stated) a good source of fiber so is a good ingredient (as long as it is balanced out with good meats and other ingredients). Usually if you see oats listed as an ingredient you can be sure that the food is at least half decent as they are quite an expensive 'filler' and not so good foods would opt for something cheaper .

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Added on May 7, 2010, 4:33 pm
@eric138
I'm assuming you mean Chicken fat which is seen in a lot of dog foods (generally found around the 5th ingredient). It is a great source of linoleic acid and Omega-6 fatty acid. As of yet i haven't seen any indication that it has any negative points about it so i generally class it as a decent ingredient, you can't take the presence of Chicken fat to mean that a dog food is fantastic but i wouldn't take it as an indication of a bad food either.

You already know that i prefer go! to now! but here is my explanation . Although now! has a lot more veggies in it (which in today's market is often a sign of a well made food) it only has one meat in the top 5 ingredients whereas go! has 2. However the protein content of now! is quite a lot higher (now! is 26%, go! is 22%) so based on that i would prefer now!.

At the end of the day, they are both good foods in their own right so it is more personal preference that sways me more towards go!.
To pick out a few ingredients, they both contain kelp which is a great ingredient and now! has broccoli which is a known anti-carcinogen. Canola oil and Flax-seed are considered decent ingredients and a lot of dog foods are starting to use a lot of berries which seem to do well with most dogs.

From what i can tell go! follows a more traditional dog food formula with much of the ingredients list consisting of (i'm assuming) manufactured or extracted vitamins and minerals whereas now! is following the more recent (and i suppose currently more popular?) formula which uses a lot of fruits, vegetable and berries to make up the majority of the nutritional content. I would say both styles have their benefits and drawbacks so as long as the nutritional analysis is sound, they are both acceptable as good foods.


This post has been edited by Divas: May 7 2010, 04:33 PM

Hello there... I'm neither an expert nor have done much reserch on dog kibbles. but i'm working on it now.

I have three brands in mind which i wud love to get more insights and dearly valued response from the pioneers in lyn. So here they are.

1) Nature's plan
2) Pro performance
3) Best choice

Thanks in advance. Appreciate all the time and effort spent on this thread. Way to go!

This post has been edited by moe81: May 7 2010, 05:11 PM

@byaku-chan

Thanks for the Science Plan article, will be reading it shortly. Good luck with your kidney problem foster, sending healing thoughts.

My favorite thing to do when i am in a bad mood is to pop into a pet shop and act clueless!! My business partner does the same thing . She once got offered Calcium supplements because they didn't have Glucosamine.
I have also been told that Science Plan is very nutritious and that the only thing you can't feed dogs is chocolate (when i specifically asked about Onions and Raisins they said that they are both safe for dogs)... I quietly correct them and also have to try very hard to keep my mouth shut when i hear bad advice being given.

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Added on May 7, 2010, 6:06 pm@moe81
Nature's Plan is a decent food, the top 5 (Natural Chicken, Chicken Meal, Brown Rice, Oat Groats, Rice Flour) are all fine. If i was to nit pick i would prefer that the Chicken Meal was 1st and Natural Chicken was second (as 'natural chicken' will have a much much higher water content (therefore less chicken which = less protein and minerals etc) and would prefer whole oats to oat groats, however that is by no means to say it is a bad food. The protein is within normal levels for a good food, although the fat is a little higher than i am used to seeing i think, it isn't high enough to cause obesity in a normally active dog.
All in all i don't have any issues with Nature's Plan, it is nothing fancy, nothing special but an all round decent food.

Pro Plan on the other hand (I'm assuming this is what you mean by Pro Performance as it is all that came up on Google, if not please give me an ingredients list and nutritional analysis) is not so great. I have pulled up the ingredients for their Performance Formula (in case you were looking at this one specifically).

Top 5 ingredients for Pro Plan Performance are... Chicken, Corn Gluten Meal, Brewers Rice, Animal fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), poultry by product meal.

Within those top 5 there is 1 ingredient that is considered ok which is the Chicken but even that is nothing spectacular.
So here is what is wrong with the rest:
Corn Gluten Meal is a byproduct of corn which is also used as a natural herbicide. It is edible but as it comes from corn also has the allergenic properties that normal corn has.
Brewers Rice is milled fragments of rice which is a by product of milled rice. It is lacking a lot of the nutritional content that normal rice contains.
Animal Fat can contain the fat of any animal (that produces meat for consumption so usually pig, cow, sheep). So this is an unstable ingredient that will mean the makeup of each batch produced is different.
Poultry by product meal... is one of the worst ingredients you can possible ask for. Not only is it a mixed source (the same idea as animal fat, coming from a number of different animals) but it is also byproducts which is the left over bits after the usable meat has been removed. We are talking feet, beaks, internal organs and such. This is a double bad if the animals they have been taken from were given chemical (steroids, antibiotics etc) as they will be all stored up in the kidneys which then go into your dog food... tasty.

Other notable ingredients in the mix are 2 more corn based ingredients (whole grain corn, corn bran), and Animal Digest which is (as defined by the AAFCO) "material which results from chemical and/or enzymatic hydrolysis of clean and undecomposed animal tissue." Basically pre-digested meat from multiple sources.

Also too much protein and too much fat (30% and 20%).

In summary really really crappy food. I also took a quick look at their "Shredded Blend Natural" range. I'm afraid it is pretty much the same thing: brewers rice, animal fat, animal digest and corn products everywhere.

I couldn't find the ingredients list for Best choice anywhere on the web (except a German site that might have been an ingredients list but i don't read German so couldn't tell :S ) so if you have it post it up and i'll have a look .

(p.s- oh gosh i am no expert either!! when i am looking at a food and see an ingredient that i am not sure what it is, i wack it in google and there is usually a wikipedia explanation of what it is, from there i can make an informed decision about its value in dog food or do more research to see what has been said and what it is used for. I also found a great site a while ago that had the full list of AAFCO definitions for dog food ingredients that helped me a lot, but i haven't been able to find it since, if i do will post it up.)

This post has been edited by Divas: May 7 2010, 06:21 PM

i bought orijen...so let's see how it goes wif my pup...

Divas,

Just out of curiousity, for a dog that gets say about a 45-60 minutes walk each day and is happy to laze around the house for the rest of the day with the occasional play and mental training. How much percentage of protein would be good and how much would be too much?

For myself, I keep an eye on their weight, if it goes up, I cut the food down, if it goes down or the dog is hungrier than usual, then I feed a bit more.

I think theres no fixed 'formula' to do this, you gotta observe since diff dogs might need a different food/amounts, just like people.

I would consider that to be the normal amount of exercise that a house dog should get. So for a puppy or adult i would feed something with a protein level of around 25% (anything in the range of 22% to 28% would be fine but i would personally stick as close to 25% as possible).

For older dogs that starting to wear down, perhaps not walking as fast or playing as vigorously i would use a food with a lower protein level (closer to 22%) to give their kidneys a lower workload.

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Added on May 8, 2010, 7:02 pmDefinitely, if you are talking about the amount of food, you will always need to adjust the amount depending on how much your individual dog needs and what brand you are feeding.
But when looking at protein levels it is slightly harder and most protein doesn't get stored as fat but simply gets filtered out in the kidneys and then flushed out in the waste. Dogs who have average exercise levels therefore need a food with average protein levels (as long as they are healthy normal dogs) whereas dogs with very heavy exercise loads need a lot of protein (just like human body builders who need a higher level of protein in their diet to do what they do).

You are right that there is no fixed formula, but there are good general guidelines that will usually point to the right range of protein percentage for different activity levels.

This post has been edited by Divas: May 8 2010, 07:03 PM

@Divas

Here i've got the ingredients list for the brand "Best Choice"

ingredients:
poultry meal, corn, corn flour, rice flour, poultry fat, beef fibres, linseed, fish, yeast, dried whole egg, vitamins, mineral components, FOS, L-carnitine, hydrolysed cartilage(source of chondroitin, hydrolysed crustaceans(source of glucosamine)

contents:
raw protien- 26%, raw fat- 16%, raw fibres- 2.5%, raw ash- 6.0%, moisture- 8.0%, calcium- 1.2%, phosphor- 0.9%, omega6- 3%, omega3- 0.7%


lookin at the ingredient i can already speculate what u gon say bout this brand. but let's just hear it. i love how you put it in ur own way.

hi, I just switched to Natural Balance Sweet Potato & Fish 2 weeks ago. My pup has healthy poo (not smelly) and healthy coat.

What I'm concerned with is the protein level 21% too low for my 3 month old toy poodle pup? She gets daily walk of 30 minutes and 90 minutes during weekend with several plays and mental exercise throughout the day.

Natural Balance Sweet Potato & Fish
Crude Protein 21.0% minimum
Crude Fat 10.0% minimum
Crude Fiber 3.0% maximum
Moisture 10.0% maximum
Calcium 1.0% minimum
Phosphorus 0.9% minimum
Omega-3 Fatty Acids 0.5% minimum
Docosahexaenoic Acid (DHA) 0.01% minimum
Omega-6 Fatty Acids 2.0% minimum

I feed her this brand coz it's hypo-allergenic. My dog tend to scratch and bite her paws and I suspested she has food allergy and I ceased feeding her chicken. I'm wondering if Addiction or Orijen would be better for her because they have more meat as ingredient compare to Natural Balance that uses more potatoes than meat. But I'm worrying too much protein would be bad for her as toy poodle has weak stomach generally and I just switched food 2 weeks ago, don't know if I should slowly switch her to another brand again.

I hate the fact that she is not getting the best food available. NB rated with 4 stars at dog food analysis.
http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_re.../cat/all/page/5

This post has been edited by sherly: May 11 2010, 02:54 PM

yup you guessed it, not a good food:
The major reason poultry is used by a lot of dog food companies is because it is much cheaper than individual meat products like chicken, or turkey. As the well known saying goes; Good things don't come cheap, Cheap things don't come good.
Secondly we have corn and corn flour. Because the second 2 ingredients are corn based ingredients means there is probably more corn in the food than there is Poultry (crappy meat is better than not meat).
Add in the rice flour (a ok ingredient on its own) and you start to get the impression that this dog food is shaping up to be more a bag of flavored flour pressed into kibble shapes... yummy.

Interestingly there are also a couple of ingredients that i don't remember seeing in kibble before: Beef fibers (i'm not sure i even know what this is) and Yeast.
After some research i didn't manage to find any info on Beef fibers in dog food. I am assuming that it is something to do with muscle tissue from cows (as muscle is made up of fibers).
As for yeast. I couldn't find anything definite about yeast specifically but i did find this really great site that lists a lot of things you don't want to see in dog food as well as a description of what it is and why it is bad. I would assume raw yeast or its products in dog food would unbalance the bacterial culture in the stomach and intestines.

Finally the fact that the vitamins and minerals are not listed separately but simply lumped into one general ingredient is never a good sign.

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Added on May 11, 2010, 6:20 pm
I would definitely say 21% protein is way to low for a 3month old.

What brand were you feeding her when she started to chew her paws? This is a symptom of food allergies but for a puppy so young to have severe food allergies and in fact food allergies in dogs of any age are in fact very rare. I'm guessing she came from a pet shop?

I wouldn't switch up to a food with a very high protein level right away as the sudden increase in protein could be a shock to the system in any breed. Try using a food with a moderate protein level (around 25%) as well as one with a good ingredients list.

I also wouldn't say that poodles have weak stomachs, they are generally pretty hardy little dogs.

Remember that you need to keep feeding one brand of food for at least 6 months to get a accurate read on whether it is good or bad for your dog. If your dog seems to have a bad reaction to a food that should be good for them, keep them on it to see if they are just reacting to toxins from previous foods working their way out of your dogs systems.
(Of course if your dog has severe vomiting, skin rashes/lesions or any other condition that is threatening their well being and health switch food immediately (after checking with a vet that something else isn't causing the symptoms) rather than continue with the trial).

One last unrelated thing: Has your puppy completed all of her puppy vaccinations? if not you shouldn't be taking her to places where other dogs go. (Wait until 2 weeks after the final puppy vaccination to be safe). Also with toy breeds i would say 90 minutes is quite a lot of walking for a pup, i would cut back a bit at least until she is older and spend more time on mental stimulation and play type exercise.

This post has been edited by Divas: May 11 2010, 06:36 PM

Hi, was feeding her sportman's pride given by pet shop previously. Yup, she came from a pet shop and I was told she was on this brand of food after her weaning.

I will continue feeding NB for a few months to check on her reaction then.

She hasn't completed all her vaccinations. But I only walk her in secluded area and didn't let her sniff on anything. Yeah, I'm aware of the risk involved.
90 minutes is the longest we walk her on weekend, we split it into 2-3 short sessions.

I was actually encouraged by a US trained dog trainer last weekend to socialize my puppy by bringing her to friend's and family homes to expose to new people and healthy vaccinated dogs. She said it would be too late if u wait until all vaccines are done as the first 4 months of puppy's life is critical stage for its social development.

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Added on May 11, 2010, 6:20 pm
I would definitely say 21% protein is way to low for a 3month old.

What brand were you feeding her when she started to chew her paws? This is a symptom of food allergies but for a puppy so young to have severe food allergies and in fact food allergies in dogs of any age are in fact very rare. I'm guessing she came from a pet shop?

I wouldn't switch up to a food with a very high protein level right away as the sudden increase in protein could be a shock to the system in any breed. Try using a food with a moderate protein level (around 25%) as well as one with a good ingredients list.

I also wouldn't say that poodles have weak stomachs, they are generally pretty hardy little dogs.

Remember that you need to keep feeding one brand of food for at least 6 months to get a accurate read on whether it is good or bad for your dog. If your dog seems to have a bad reaction to a food that should be good for them, keep them on it to see if they are just reacting to toxins from previous foods working their way out of your dogs systems.
(Of course if your dog has severe vomiting, skin rashes/lesions or any other condition that is threatening their well being and health switch food immediately (after checking with a vet that something else isn't causing the symptoms) rather than continue with the trial).

One last unrelated thing: Has your puppy completed all of her puppy vaccinations? if not you shouldn't be taking her to places where other dogs go. (Wait until 2 weeks after the final puppy vaccination to be safe). Also with toy breeds i would say 90 minutes is quite a lot of walking for a pup, i would cut back a bit at least until she is older and spend more time on mental stimulation and play type exercise.

[/quote]

This post has been edited by sherly: May 11 2010, 10:58 PM

Yes i agree with this, if you know a dog is fully vaccinated and healthy thena social visit is fine. But this is very different to walking in a public space where you don't know the condition of the dogs who have traveled through.

As long as you are careful it is up to you to decide. I'm just uber paranoid at the moment with all the threads people have been posting about their puppy getting Parvo/Distemper.

Haha me too, want my dog to get exercised else she will get restless but also scared she will will pick up disease. Good thing is I work from home, I can keep an eye on her all day, will rush her to vet on any sign of illness.

Yeah, gotta be very cautious.

This post has been edited by sherly: May 12 2010, 12:35 PM

Which pet stores do you guys recommend for giving a good price for dried dog food in PJ area? Need to restock and want to switch out of Ishkan for a lower protein food for the old dog

i noticed her urine has become more yellowish and smell more ammonia.

she poops considerable more and it's soft. and SMELLY.
luckily in the morning - my nose kinda stuck but still the smell is like sh1t. LOL


at first she kinda poop like machinegun - she'll poop the first large one, then some minor2 one around the area. as most of it is soft, so it's kinda messy and smelly to clean up.

this morning - i think it's improving oredi in the sense 1 large poop and just 1 small poop nearby. still smelly.

good thing is - i dont notice her vomitting anymore. i can only now hope her poop will improve.

This post has been edited by karwaidotnet: May 17 2010, 11:08 AM

Give her time to adjust, did you change her food gradually or suddenly?

gradually...but only for three days as the old kibbles stock lasted that long only....

i suspected my mom gave her rice to eat with the kibbles, when im out for work, as that was what she been adviced by her frens...coz last night she went out poop-machinegun again. the damage area is wider this time. all the small poops were soft. except for the large one.

I have the funniest image in my head when thinking of your "machinegun pooper".
I can also totally sympathise with people giving her different things to eat (mine is a mother-in-law), very frustrating.

Hope her poop settles down to normal soon

i imagine CJ7

I noticed that Acana dog food was ranked as 5 star premium food in dogfoodanalysis....and it has great ingredient too.....i juz wanna know anyone tried before? will the furkid produce smelly or stinky stool after eating it? coz i keep my furkid in my room, so i very concern bout the smell of the stool... ==''

read the prev thread. byaku-chan tried it before...

Read byaku chan post before, but he mentioned the 1 wif grain ingredient, i'm considering Acana Pacifica, main ingredients are fish n salmon n it is grain free....sorry for not mention tis earlier..however, i will gv it a try by myself to my furkid^^
I m feeding my furkid Addiction Salmon, juz change to tis last week, her stool firm but a bit soft...duno good o not...

This post has been edited by ^4ever_Fan+a5y^: May 19 2010, 10:33 AM

where did u get the Addiction Salmon? i was trying to get it myself but couldnt find in 3 petsmore branches. they have it but it's for kittens. not puppies.

I got it from pet lovers center at kepong jusco

Is it ok i feed my beagle puppy 5 months with orijen 6 fishes?

Shouldn't be a problem, its a decent food. See how he goes .

Also just wanted to add another thing science diet is actually useful for (that i had forgotten and was recently reminded of). If you have a dog that has been very ill and so not eating or drinking (i'm talking Parvo/Distemper etc.), If you mix i/d or a/d wet food in with a bit of regular food and water, the dog will find it much easier to eat, keep down and digest that sticking him straight back on full meals of highly nutritional foods. He will also stay hydrated due to the high water content of the mix. As the dog gets stronger and healthier, you can slowly reduce the amount of a/d or i/d and increase the amount of normal food (keep the water content high until you are sure your dog is drinking enough again). I would recommend starting with a 50/50 split of SD and Good quality dry kibble with enough water to make it the consistency of porridge.

Hi Divas, byaku-chan and all friends: -

after reading some of the possts here, i am amazed and surprised and perhaps shocked about the foods that we are gicing to our beloved pets. i really need to ask for your advices about 'things' that i am feeding to my american pitbull terriers. please kindly advise, i am a humble and good listener.

when my APBT got skin disease (actually it was mainge) my vet advised to feed him the Science-Plan food. quite costly.

i am currently giving Pro Plan (Natural Lamb & Rice) Formula Plus Essential to my 9 month old APBT. am i giving him the right food/diet?

Guaranteed Analysis: -

Crude Protein (MIN) 28%
Crude Fat (MIN) 18%
Crude Fiber (MAX) 3%
Moisture (MAX) 12%
Linoleic Acid (MIN) 1.6%
Calcium (Ca) (MIN) 1.1%
Phosphorus (p) (MIN) 0.8%
Vitamin A (MIN) 15,000 IU/kg
Vitamin E (MIN) 100 IU/kg
Glutamin ** (MIN) 1.0%
DHA (MIN) 0.05%

I am planning to mix few spoons of rice (cooked) with the diet.

is Pro Plan healthy enough?
does it cause skin related diseases?
what 'best' brand shd i give if Pro Plan is found not suitable?

Thank you all in advance.

thanks

after about 2 weeks of feeding her with orijen (not the fish package) i dun think she or even me and my family can take it.

for her - the stool remains soft and smelly. some of it is a bit watery as well.

for us - hard to clean up and smelly of course. worse is when she spread it around.

need to get a need kibble today...

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Added on May 23, 2010, 10:05 amsummary of her diet.
nutri-edge - the kibbles she was feed wif when she was born. stool is firm and nice. no smell.

oven-baked - stool is ok but it causes her to drinks LOTS of water and she'll vomit brown, foamy fluid afterwards. vet gave her some medicine. after the med is finish...she continue to vomit once in a while.

orijen - no more vomitting but the stool is nightmare.

i guess her stomach couldnt take some much meat (protein) at a time...pity i would say.

This post has been edited by karwaidotnet: May 23 2010, 10:05 AM

Well, you could either go back to what shes used to as different dogs may react differently to different foods, or try another brand of dog food?

@karwaidotnet - Yup i would guess the sludgy poop and bad smell is all the excess protein coming out. Try switching to a good quality normal dog food for a while (I would recommend Canidae, go!, now! or health foods but you can choose any that follow the 'good food' rules). Hopefully that sorts everything out, don't forget to introduce the food slowly by mixing it with the Orijen she is eating now (start with 50/50 then work towards 100% new food over a week or 2).

If she has a lot of intestinal/digestive related problems you could try giving her a little apple cider vinegar in her food each day (like a teaspoon) as that has been seen to do a lot of good for digestive systems in dogs.

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Added on May 23, 2010, 4:19 pm@mikehwt - Yes it is indeed scary when you start to really understand what goes into our dog's food. But dog food is a huge industry with lots of money to be made so it is only natural that a lot of the companies involved are more concerned about the health of their wallets than the health of our pets.

There is already an analysis of Pro Plan on this post, but it is the Performance variety, not the Shredded Naturals that i think you are talking about. So here goes, Pro Plan Shredded Blend Natural Lamb & Rice Formula:

Top 5 ingredients are: Lamb, brewers rice, corn gluten meal, whole grain wheat, chicken meal

Starts out well with Lamb, simple single source meat protein number one.
Then crash down to brewers rice, corn gluten meal and whole grain wheat - not desirable ingredients.

Brewers rice is the small milled fragments of rice kernels that have been separated from the larger kernels of milled rice. (AAFCO definition). Brewers rice is a processed rice product that is missing many of the nutrients contained in whole ground rice and brown rice thus reducing the quality. (From Wikipedia).
Corn Gluten Meal is a by-product of the corn milling process.
Wheat in general although not as bad as corn, is not as good as (real) rice, or barley, or oats, or potato.

By this point, even if you take into consideration the final ingredient of top 5 (chicken meal) the food already has more grains/fillers than it does meat...
If we carry on down the list we see ingredients such as animal-fat, soybean meal, beet pulp, animal digest... the list goes on. I also found an ingredient that i haven't noticed before and looked up quickly:
Introducing Glycerin:
In foods and beverages, glycerin serves as a humectant, solvent and sweetener, and may help preserve foods. A sweetening agent should never be seen in dog food (there are plenty of other safe preservatives that can be used).

Don't get me wrong, they have put some good ingredients in there, Pearled Barley is there somewhere, as is oat meal and fish meal. However the fact that the majority of the top 5 ingredients are undesirables and a lot of the other ingredients aren't impressive either, isn't outweighed by the decent ingredients they decided to throw in.

Also a Lamb formula food should NEVER contain chicken protein as a lot of people rely on Lamb formula foods as a chicken free alternative for protein sensitive dogs. Any formula that is advertised as a single meat formula (Lamb and rice, Kangaroo and barley, Duck and sweet potato) shouldn't contain other meats in the top 5. Its like you buying a beef steak, and then finding that it has been stuffed with chicken when it arrives on your plate...

To summarize, although the protein levels and stuff are all fine, the ingredients really aren't (especially not for something which seems to be trying to be advertised as a healthy alternative food). Re-read this thread and then decide for yourself what food brands you are interested in (i like now!, go!, Canidae and Health foods but there are other good brands out there). If you get stuck you can always post up the ingredients and get an analysis, but it is important for Malaysian dog owners to be able to read and decipher pet food labels to force pet shops, suppliers and manufacturers to improve the quality of the food they produce/supply and sell.

This post has been edited by Divas: May 23 2010, 04:19 PM

hmm...dont c canidae at the petsmore shop i went to. but i found addiction salmon that i initially wanted to purchase. let's c how she goes now wif smoked salmon

i hope she do fine wif it...

Hi Divas,

many thanks for your great and knowledgeable words. i truly appreciate them so much. thanks for your researches.

my dilemma is that, i am from Ipoh and there are very limited brands of choices around among the few large pet shops. i am stull trying to look for the bransd that you and others are suggesting but i dont seem to locate them in the pet shops around my area. this is really frustrating as i always wanted good foods for my 2 9 month old pitbulls.

i will read up the posts and hope to find the brand names as suggested. thanks.

i hope some can post other alternative 'decent' brand names so that i can at least feed my pets with ease.

thanks again.

@mikehwy - Put a list of the foods available and we can see what would be a good choice. Alternatively you can ask a shop to bring in food for you. I order specific/specialist brands for certain customers, they let me know how much they need (eg 15kg bag per month) and then i make sure i have it. Bigger shops might not do this but if you have a Petsmore/Pets wonderland or any of them, their company already has most brands in their warehouse and it would simply be a case of them adding one or 2 bags in a delivery every now and then.

@karwaidotnet - good luck with the addiction, let us know how it does for your dog.

Dear Divas,

thanks again for your advice. i think this is the best that i can do ... i mean, i will go and copy the brands available. but i remember that there are only very few names up in the shelf.

thanks very much to your effort.

This post has been edited by mikehwy: May 23 2010, 08:55 PM

Yeah i would like to see the list too ^^

after two days of feeding her wif addiction salmon bleu...her poops have only gone to worse. (it was serve on a proportion amount of around 70/30, 60/40 wif orijen being the larger amount).

and what breaks my heart is when she has to wake up in the middle of the night several times just to poops watery stools...

and it dawns upon me that her stomach most probably can only accept chicken. coz that's the main ingredients of previous kibbles that gave her firm stool. (though the oven-baked makes her vomit and the initial one is a low-quality kibbles - nutri-edge)

orijen makes her stool a disastrous may be bcoz it has fish ingredients in it.

question: should i continue to monitor her or should i just go now and get a kibble wif chicken as the main ingredient. and if im going to get a new kibbles, any recommended brand? the only good quality brand that comes to my mind now is natural balance but i can only recall seeing it labelled as Lamb and Rice.

Erm....my schnauzer eating addiction salmon and she doing quite fine with it...if ur pup cant do well wif fish, mayb u can try GO! Duck formula that mentioned by eric138 at second page of tis thread, its main ingredients are duck and oat, oat could help in digestion...

This post has been edited by ^4ever_Fan+a5y^: May 25 2010, 10:45 AM

hmm...hey if i'm ever going to get a new kibbles packet today...anyone want to buy my addiction salmon? i only scoop out max 1 cup from it.

else...i'm thinking of feeding it to all the stray dogs near my area...and i'm imagining the next day it will be a havoc when smelly watery poops are found everywhere....gahhh...LOL

When was the last time you dewormed your dogkarwaidot net? is it possible that worms are causing her poop to be soft instead of the food.

I would really suggest trying to stick with the addiction for a little while longer, just to see if it will clear up. Dog's digestive systems find it very hard to deal with change in the diet. If you do really feel you definitly want to change right away then i would agree with you on your choice of going with something simple (give her something without any wierd, interesting ingredients for a while to see how she goes). I would suggest either Canidae, Health foods or go!/now!...
You can try the Natural Balance if you want, but keep in mind despite having good ingredients in the first ingredient is not a meat (for the dry kibble at least), but that could be for a specific reason that i don't know of (haven't read the advertising speel to see what they are marketing the food as).
God luck, hope you find a food that gives you nice solid poop soon

thanx divas. i would try to look for those if i c it. but problem is i dun think petsmore have it and for my convenience, petsmore has almost as much branches around as 7-11.

i've been to other shop but they don't look as clean and bright as petsmore which gives me sense of trustworthy.

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Added on May 25, 2010, 3:26 pmabout the worm thing - on her 3rd vaccination, i was introduced by the vet to use this new product called Revolution that suppose to kills fleas,ear mites, worms and even prevent heartworm. i bought it and use it on her. no tick/flea is found till today. (previously we did found few). so i'm assuming it works.

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Added on May 25, 2010, 9:35 pmok i confirm the petsmore branch i went to doesnt have Canidae nor Go!

i browse around and noticed Arcana has Chicken as the main ingredients...but wif whitefish meal as the 5th ingredient...thinking of getting this IF she doesnt improve by this weekend...

and about the Natural Balance...the Chicken package has salmon meal as the 6th ingredient. there's an organic package wif chicken as the only meat...but the rest is all organic stuff...which kinda put me on a situation

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Added on May 25, 2010, 9:51 pmjudging by this website for Canidae Canidae Chicken Meal and Rice Formula it seems like a perfect food for my dear poodle...problem is i'm not sure where i can get it.

divas, where u get urs from?

This post has been edited by karwaidotnet: May 25 2010, 09:51 PM

Ok i had a look at some websites for Revolution, and it looks awesome. Do you need a prescription for it (a few sites say you do) and which vet did you get it from? I'm thinking about giving it a trial.
However i found THIS site which if you scroll down has a list of what Revolution works against and it says it doesn't prevent roundworms and hookworms (which are the intestinal worms i was talking about) in dogs, so it might be worth picking up a deworming pill just in case.

As for Canidae, it is hard to find as it is a small company that imports it (along with the Chris Christensen grooming products). I have my own Grooming salon where we stock Canidae so that is where i get it from. As far as i know you can get it in House of Groomers (both branches) and not sure where else. Pretty sure Grooming Ranch has as well, apart from that not sure. I have seen it in Pets Wonderland before (but the bag i saw was expired already :S). Quite a few shops opened by HOG students will have Canidae in, but i really can't remember where everyone is these days, lol sorry not much help.
(I have left my own shop out of the list, don't want to be advertising and all that).
Sadly this is the issue with Canidae, the availability is not there. You can also get go! or now!, the only place i know for sure who stocks them is Pet Shack (forgot if that is the name, quite sure, the one who does a lot of sugar glider stuff, all the Bugsy products anyway).

i got it from the Segar Veterinary Hospital @ Tmn Segar, Cheras. the frenly vet recommended it to me for its convenience as a all-in-one product. it's not display at their shelf...so maybe it does need a prescription. not sure.

i read thru the instructions guide pamplet again and i can confirm that it did mentioned about preventing roundworms for dogs but nothing about hookworm for dogs.i guess i should confirm this wif the vet and get a hookworm prevention for her, if this Revolution really doesnt prevent it.

and about canidae...maybe i try search at this petslover (?) or other pet shops...else...i think i might go for Arcana.

This post has been edited by karwaidotnet: May 26 2010, 01:20 AM

If they don't have Caidae, see if they have Health foods (if they have Avoderm then they have the supplier for Health foods). It is almost the same as Canidae ingredients wise, sold more widely and quite a lot cheaper as well.

I think you might find you have the same problems with Arcana if your dog didn't do well on addiction or orijen.

Also definitly check with your vet as all the websites i saw specificaly said the Revolution works in dogs for Heartworm, Dog ticks, fleas, mites and mange mites. It works in cats for intestinal worms as well but apparently not dogs.

You can get go! and now! at Pretty Pets in Ipoh. Hope this helps

any one here heard of Makin-Trax, kibble from U.S?

Never heard of it, but did a quick search in google and found....

Ground Corn, Poultry Meal, Oat Groats, Beet Pulp, Poultry Fat

....enough said.

finally her stool has become solid....and i dun think it smell....need more observation. but for tonight i'm glad for that

Yey that is great news!! using the Arcana or something else?

jtl >>

Oh BIG thanks this is exactly what i need. i will go to pretty shop and use my camera to scan the guaranteed Analysis, and post here. hope you, divas and Chan can chip in to help. pls help me as one of my American Pitbull Terrier once had a bit of mainge (already solved by my vet).

Divas and Chan >>

can i snap some pictures and pls comment on the Ingredient analysis for me to make food decisions? thanks in advance.

I can already tell you that go! and now! are both great foods. You will be safe with any of their formulas. However if you want i can do an analysis of whichever formula you decide to choose, just let me know which one you go for and i can pull the ingredients/nutrition from their website.

Did your Pitbull have Sarcoptic or Demodectic mange? Glad it is all solved now either way.

@ jtl - very helpful

This post has been edited by Divas: May 27 2010, 12:18 PM

nope. still the addiction mixing wif orijen. have increased to 60/40 portion today, wif addiction as 60. if it's remain solid, then i'll be happily using it till she become 1 year older. which is when i need to hunt for adult kibbles...

Divas,

thank god we have such as helpful and knowlegeable person here to assist.

ok, i will go to my pet shop, look for the go! and now!. if there isnt any then i will snap photos of the ingredients label. many thanks for your advice. also, my vet only told me of this 'mainge' and i was not too sure of the 'scientific' name of it. it made my pitbull (at the top end of the tummy, near the hind legs) having very tthin hair, and could see the brownish skin a little. does it look bad? i am worried.

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Added on May 28, 2010, 4:15 pmhi Divas and pals,

i went to the pet shop just now.
i took some photos of the available foods, i could not take the details as the Pretty Pets Shop was crowded and there was little space for taking out the bags and photo them individually. please help to comment wherever possible.

Oh i forgot, there was Eukanuba also in the shelf.
your recommended Go! and Now! were the 6-star foods and cost rm220 for 8.5kg. i cant afford it as each bag will only lasts 2 weeks or lesser.

Many thanks again.

This post has been edited by mikehwy: May 28 2010, 04:41 PM


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hi.
i got a doberman puppy, shed. i got some food form the breeder when he sell me his dob, some proformance adult dog food, lamb and rice. should i change it to proformance puppy?any one know where can i buy this brand? i m Klang and i didn;t found this brand this area so far..
is it suitable to f=give this food or i should change to better food? tqtq

8.5kg pack oni can last 2 weeks for u?

You sure u got the price correct? I checked the selling thread in petstore section for go! chicken,fruits vege / go! salmon is rm262 for 30lbs wo..

Wow good job, very nice clear pictures. I have tried to get the exact formulas that i can see on the pics so here goes.

1. Nutri Edge "Adult" (The blue one on the bottom):
TOP 5: Chicken Meal, Brown Rice, Oat Groat, Potato Product, Chicken Fat (Preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols (Vitamin E).
All looks good here. As we know, Chicken meal is good (single source, whole meat), Brown rice is good. Oat Groat is good (this is the whole oat with only the inedible husks removed, it has better nutritional content than other, more processed, oat products).
Potato product is proving a little tricky to decipher. From what i can tell, potato product is pretty much potato flour; potatoes ground down and dehydrated into a powder. I'm assuming (from what happens to other things when they go through this process) the potatoes loose some of their nutritional value through this however its not a major issue when taking into consideration the other ingredients.

Further down in the list we find Prebiotics listed (although they don't get specific about it) as well as Flaxseed and Glucosomine which are all good ingredients.
On the bad side we have Beet Pulp, Brewers yeast and Salt... not so desirable really.

Protein, fat and fiber are all set at good levels (23%, 11% and 4%) although i am used to seeing a slightly higher fat content (closer to 14%).

All in all, not a bad food. Could be better but could definitely be much worse. Your dog should do reasonably well with this one.

2.Artemis "Fresh-mix Adult" (Light blue one on top of California Natural):
TOP 5: Chicken, Chicken Meal, Turkey, Barley, Brown Rice.
Beautiful top 5. Truly fantastic and awe inspiring. 3... count them 3!!! single source meats as the first 3 ingredients. Chicken, Chicken meal and turkey. They know what they are doing. The news stays good with Barley and Brown rice, both top notch fillers.

There are so many great and interesting things about this food i could simply list pretty much all the ingredients with a giant thumb up next to them... however, i have just pulled out some of the truly exceptional (and interesting) highlights that are not commonly seen in most foods (even great ones). Kelp, Spinach, numerous berries and a lot of pre/pro-biotics (Lactobacillus Casei, Enterococcus Faecium).
No food is perfect however and Artemis does contain Flavor Enhancer... but really, who cares... yes it is probably chemical but with all the other great stuff this food has, we can forgive them of this as they are just ensuring your dog (hopefully) loves it as much as i do!!

Do i really need to say Protein, fat and fiber are good? of course they are 23%, 14%, 3% exactly how i like it <3

3. ProPlan + Iams (and Eukanuba as well). Unless the rest are going to be really tough to pay for, don't even bother considering them. If you are on a budget you can choose one of these to mix in with a better food, saving money but still ensuring your dog gets some kind of decent nutrition. If you want an analysis done of any of these let me know (don't think Iams or Eukanuba have been done yet, ProPlan has i think).. for now will just leave it at by-product and corn everywhere !!!!

4. California Natural.

I was slightly disappointed with the website for these guys. Its seems like they are reluctant to give a detailed ingredients list. They do say that their ingredients lists are short and simple. But they lump vitamins and minerals into general categories (listed as 'vitamins' and 'minerals'), which would make any dog food ingredient list (that use synthesized/extracted vits and mins instead of fruits and veg) short.
From what i can tell, the ingredients they name all look fine, chicken meal, brown rice and the likes.

Interestingly they list salt as a positive ingredient, saying that all living things need salt and that they levels in which it is used in their food is healthy rather than unhealthy. However i have always believed that dogs get enough salt naturally through other ingredients in the food which is why i list it as a bad ingredient. I will have to do some more research and double check some nutritional contents to get a clear answer on this, but for now salt is staying in my bad list.

Protein and fat are fine (21%, 11%) but fiber seems extremely low to me (1.5%). Overall it just seems to contain not much of anything really.

So the verdict on this one is: could be bad, could be good, from the website i can't see much and i am always wary of foods with websites that don't clearly state the FULL ingredients list. I would avoid this one for now, unless someone can get a full ingredient list or confirm that the one on the website is the one on the pack as well.

5. Blackwood (although this should be lumped together with the others in #3, Blackwood has a special place in my heart so it gets a special number all to itself.
So the choices you have in your pic are (from top to bottom) 1000, 2000 and 3000.

1000 and 2000 are pretty much the same, featuring Poultry meal and Corn meal, as well as containing some choice ingredients such as Brewers yeast and beet pulp (they specify that it is with sugar removed which turns it from a terrible sweetening ingredient into a pointless filler), and the oh so familiar Dried Steptococcus Facium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product (the leftovers from making pre/pro-biotics).
On the bright side they did bother to add Chicken fat which is a decent ingredient at least... oh and 2000 has rice in... too little too late.
3000 is their 'lamb and rice formula' that contains "no corn, no wheat"... however it does contain Poultry meal and Poultry fat... one of which is in the top 5.. for a "lamb and rice" formula which is usually the choice of owners of dogs with skin problems (often thought to be emphasized and aggravated by chicken) this is absolutely unacceptable and shows little or no understanding of why lamb and rice formulas exist in the first place.

To sum it up. I hate Blackwood.... and justifiably so. When they first came on the market (a couple of years ago) they were extortionately expensive (around the same price as Canidae, Pinnacle and other such brands if i remember correctly), it seems they have dropped their price since then, however you still don't get what you pay for (considering Health Foods in around the same price and far, far, FAR superior). Although not the worst food you can get, the fact that they advertise themselves as one of the best "uncompromised details to unique high quality of ingredients makes it one of the best premium formulas" (1000), "Our outstanding formula makes this food the ultimate diet for dogs" (3000) fuels my total disgust and hatred.

Oh, but just to be fair... the Protein, fat and fiber is fine for Blackwood. (there is a long analysis of Blackwood on pg1 post #17)


Hopefully that helps you choose, pretty much 1st choice is Artemis, followed by NutriEdge, then (probably) California Natural...

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Added on May 28, 2010, 10:46 pmis it Proformance the ProPlan product that there is an analysis of somewhere on this thread?... if so (and my memory serves me right) i would switch to something else. How old is your puppy? (there is an analysis of Pro Plan Proformance on pg 2 post #28, if this isn't what you are talking about please post ingredient list and nutritional analysis).

Thanks eric i was also going to say that sounds very expensive for go! or now!. As my memory serves me, they are around the same price as Canidae (which would be closer to Rm200something for 13kg not 8.... Possibly, your pet shop is marking up the price to get a nicer margin (although the margin for go! and now! is the same as other foods...). You can double check the price and if it really is that much call them out on it and ask them why it is almost double the price that you can find it on the internet...

This post has been edited by Divas: May 28 2010, 10:53 PM

Dear Divas,

omg, you ahve done such as great job in analysing the foods i had taken the pics from.

firstly, i have to apologise for not being able to snapshot the Guaranteed Analysis as the shelf space was so cramped, and the crowd was large. my sincere apology.

secondly, i ama beginning to get an idea of the ingredient (though not that sure as yet).

thirdly, i will go and check out the Artemis and NutriEdge tomorrow. hope i can get a closer look (i mean, taking snapshots) and have a closer look.

the prices, as i remembered, were about the same.

Divas and eric138: -

i was quite certain that the smaller pack og 8.5kg was rm220!!! i nearly dropped to the floor after hearing the price and i had to move away from the little bag. but, i will check again tomorrow.

devil86,

actually, its worst. my 12 kg Pro Plan only lasts 3 weeks for my TWO Amrican Pitbull Terriers (9 months of age). Each 12 kg cost rm170 for the lamp feed for puppy. I was told that the puppy Pro Plan was more richer in vitamins (are they correct ???). i am feeding them twice a day, with 1.5 cups each. i was thinking to mix with some RICE (those we consume) to reduce the cost.

i also feed them with karihome goasts milk, a large tin (rm 75) lasts 3 weeks too.

i sometimes also get them the fresh goats milk (rm5 per little bottle), 2 bottles each for a week.

i give them the oralcalcium (through a syringe) once a day (my vet knows i love pets and suggested me to feed them with this 'extra').

i am at a lost now. other than the Pro Plan issue, i have to re think of ways to alter the diets to be more economic. sigh .....

i just hope someone can give some advices.

Many thanks to all ..... particularly to Dear Divas for his truly great efforts. THANKS.

This post has been edited by mikehwy: May 29 2010, 12:25 AM

There is a petshop in Ipoh Garden where Parkson used to be...its on the row facing a corner coffeeshop...they stock Acana, Origen, Royal Canin, Addiction, etc. Pretty good selection I would say. The new big store in town centre stock other brands I am not familiar with though. Can't remember the names of the shops though.

Btw, anyone here using Royal Canin series? I personally find it very good.

This post has been edited by mybirds85: May 29 2010, 09:26 AM

i think you are referring to Pretty Shop, the shop next to few clinics, at the end of the row? that is the one that i am talking about.

the one in town centre is the Hup Fatt? i know the boss since childhood. i will go to both the shops again tmr as today is raining havily .....

thanks for your concern.

For now! puppy , now! adult and go! duck, there is only 450g, 2.72kg, then 11.34 kg..

while go! chicken, fruit&vege and go! salmon, there is only 450g, 3.63kg, then 13.61g..

Where gott 8.5kg??

Emm, i will go and check again. in this case, i must have made a mistake. thanks for your words pal. cheers.

Hi Divas, eric and friends: -

I have just went to the crowded pet shop and took some pics below. Guaranteed Analysis are next to each Artemis pic. Please help to comment to improve my knowledge of pet foods. Thanks in advance.

Prices were confirmed as: -

1. Artemis 3 Adult (13.6kg) - RM180
2. Artemis Osopure (18.1kg) - RM160
3. NutriEdge 3 Adult (15kg) - RM135
4. GO! (hidden under a brownish chair) - 3.6kg RM98
5. GO! (hidden under a brownish chair) - 13.6kg RM260

Advices from assistant seller -
- NutriEdge was the most 'value' food
- Artemis Osopure at 18.1kg value food, especially for ACTIVE dogs
- we should give younger dogs with better foods, then, after 1.5 to 2 years, we can consider to feed them with cheaper foods. Is it correct?

All advices will be highly appreciated. TQ.

This post has been edited by mikehwy: May 30 2010, 04:57 PM


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Www.proformancepet.com/lambrice.php this is the food i feeding my doberman puppy now. She is 8weeks old.i need some advice should i continue this food or change it..this is for adult.. Breeder give me adult food. Proformance got puppy food as well.

I have a 13-14 month old Pembroke Welsh Corgi who is an extremely picky eater, and who had frequent bouts of malassezia. The vet does not recommend that he be fed meat like chicken, beef and pork as it might aggravate his skin condition, which narrows down my choices by a lot.

I've tried feeding him several brands- but he's so picky he'd either not eat it at all, or will eat for a few days or weeks at most and then lose interest in the food and refuse to eat. Wasted a lot of money buying him dog food, so now am trying sample satchets (Which are hard to get as well).

Would like recommendations on what I should feed him. He's currently on Addiction's venison kibble, and it's quite an improvement as he's nearly finished it now, but is losing interest already. He also sheds a lot.

Hey guys, currently looking to purchase the Innova Puppy or Artemis Fresh Mix Small Breed Puppy, any recommended shop which is selling this product around KL/PJ area? Thanks in advance.