Looks like some gooding to read. So bump
-Parked for summary so easier to refer later-
QUOTE(cuckoo bird @ Aug 24 2011, 11:27 AM)
Referring to comments on Autofoam, for those of you who have not done it, you need to be very clear of what effect Autofoam will have for your ride.
Autofoam on the chassis will no doubt give you the following benefits -
- better NVH on highway speed, wind turbulence noise can be reduced with foam filled chassis vs. hollow chassis.
- slightly better handling.
- increased rigidness of chassis / reduce the chassis flex.
But there is a negative effect on your ride comfort, for a Vios, your creamy smooth ride quality on soft sprung absorber will be affected.
Some people may believe and say that Autofoam gives you continental car feeling like BMW, I would not say its not true,...but its only partially true, let me put it this way -
- over certain road conditions, for example highways,...or freeway type of smoother roads with smoothly tarred connection on different road levels, then yes,...you can feel the firmness of the ride, abit BMW like because your car's feeling over such smooth bumps are more direct and less squat.
- However, if you are to go to some town roads, with alot of small bumps on left, right of the road,...your ride is gonna suffer badly,...it is gonna feel too "busy"...quite alot worse than before foaming.
Or if you go thru lots of ripples on the road,...you will suffer more vibrations,...basically the ride is harsher.Therefore, the notion of autofoam making your car feels continental is only partly true,...
there is a negative side to the ride quality as well.In conclusion, doing autofoam makes you realise that how much your chassis flex before doing foaming. But, a chassis flex is not always a bad thing, depending on how you look at it. If you are sporty driver placing top priority over ride comfort, by all means you can consider autofoam.
For our conventional cars, chassis flexibility is actually an extension of the bump and road uneveness absorption, thus improving ride quality.
1. It had been argued that autofoam or chassis stiffening improves ride quality because a stiff chassis forces the absorber to work harder to absorb the bump. This is true that the absorber probably works harder and absorbs more bump. However, a car with original absorber and chassis flex configuration still rides more comfortable on most road conditions.
Why? You can imagine this -
Scenario 1, original car chassis flex with original absorber = one mattress (or something similar) placed over 4 springs at different end.
Scenario 2, Autofoamed chassis with original absorber = a very stiff plank placed over 4 springs.
Both have plank and mattress have similar weight, when there is energy forced from spring to plank,...it needs to work harder to absorb the impact from below because the plank is stiff. While for the mattress, the spring works less when there is impact from below. But when you sit on the middle of the plank you feel more movements compared to sitting on the mattress.
What does this mean? A flexing mattress will be more comfortable than the stiff plank to sit on even though the spring works harder on the plank.
It is not true flexible chassis causes discomfort to the ride, you are sitting in the middle of the car,...the flex is more on the both ends of the car at front and read wheel,....just like the mattress.
So more or less you guys understand what autofoam does?
I don't have anything against autofoam, I just want you guys to be very clear of the effect because it is not reversible once you do it.
For guys who place very high priority on ride comfort, they regret doing autofoam even though it helps to reduce noise level to a certain extent. You can check out some random displeasures out there in Autoworld forum.
What i am commenting is on normal mainstream cars like Vios, City and so on.
Some could argue that stiffer chassis is definitely better because all the car manufacturers like BMW is increase the stiffness for newer model. But you need to understand that when the engineer of Honda or Toyota perform suspension R&D test on the Vios, it is based on such flexible chassis, so if you stiffen the chassis, it throws out the perfect original comfort setting, the absorber would not work as well for comfort anymore.
BMWs and Merc are different, they are heavy cars,...and they want handling performance as well as comfort,...for these cars, their ideology to achieve this is to stiffen up the chassis,...to optimize for handling and comfort,..and their suspension tuning is based on such chassis stiffness.
QUOTE(cuckoo bird @ Aug 24 2011, 10:48 PM)
Hallo brother Ice Cube....
Yeah...I just did foaming and share my thoughts here.
I am more for comfort guy,...so personally I got mixed feelings on the result.
On highway and smoother stretch of road,...I like it,...but on more bumpy road, ride become harsher.
The reason I wrote very lengthy explanations is not against any shops or whatever,...
my main purpose is to share in good description what it is exactly like doing foaming.Before I did it,...going thru other forums, I found a few things, no offense -
- just like political scene, many people can be very easily influenced by general public opinion. When this happens it clouds their actual judgement, and start believing what everyone says, while on the other hand the actual result is different.
Alot of people are promised continental ride quality after foaming,...and start believing it. Especially after they read stuff like travelling at 160km/h feels like 110km/h before and so on......these are all "over-blown statements"...
If you say the after improvement is 130km/h feels like 110km/h,....maybe thats more like it.
Many people confuse firm ride vs. harsh ride quality.
In general, there are so many different types of road conditions we travel through daily (e.g town road bumpiness,..freeway smoothness and so on).
Autofoam gives you a real continental feeling only on certain road conditions,....whereas in other road conditions,..the ride is harsh. I can gurantee you that BMW, Merc and Audi sedan has firm ride,..but on ripples and small bumps all over,..they are not too firm or harsh, even though they have very stiff chassis.
Probably its because of their car heavy weight,...and a different absorber mechanism/ suspension system.
I agree with you and can imagine that Kenari with chassis foaming would have tremendous improvement in handling. Well, Kenari in its original form with tall body,...definitely have very huge amount of flex...
Glad that you enjoyed it...
Anyway,...the bottomline is that,....I just want to give a detailed, real and unbiased experience to guys who wish to do foaming. Because I do realise that finding good experience is hard on the forum,..alot of it is diluted and influenced views which does not paint the true picture.
QUOTE(cuckoo bird @ Aug 25 2011, 09:14 PM)
Hi Quazacolt, Samwong,....
I am not trying to pour cold water on this autofoam stuff,...as I had mentioned earlier, I just want to give some neutral view and make sure anyone considering it really knows the implication.
As it is not reversible,...you would not want to regret having to bear with your daily transport for many years to come before selling it off.
What I suggest for anyone considering doing it is to do a test on someone's car who did autofoam,...do a real "apple to apple comparison"....
Lets say for you Sam, with your Persona,...find someone with a Persona who had done it....
A car with same wheels and rim configuration,,....with same stock absorber and spring. When you do comparison,...you really need to do a side by side with your own car....
P/S - do make sure that the benchmark car you are looking for is at least 10 days after autofoam,....because initially the harshness is bearable, but as the foam starts hardening, so do the chassis stiffness,...and so do the ride quality become harder....Don't test on a car that is fresh from autofoam oven...i.e,..who just did it same day or only a day after.
Do make sure you test it over several different road conditions,...eg. -
- highway type of road
- town road with small imperfections along the way...
- bumpy roads...
- roads with alot of connection to "bridge" with different levels...
Do it side by side,...then you can really tell whether you like it or you think you cannot bear with the increased overly firmness or harshness.
Don't just test it on only one type of road conditions,...because if you test it on only the super smooth highway road,...you definitely will love the autofoam treatment.
But in real life,....for most people,...they travel thru many different road conditions on a daily basis...
In my personal opinion, most of our mainstream cars like City, Persona,..Vios, ..Altis have more of less same characteristics of flexing chassis,...and the chassis flex actually is part of the bump absorption that improves ride quality. But there is also chances that I may be wrong in the sense that a Vios is badly impacted,...while Persona's ride quality not so much affected.
I had read that Altis who did Autofoam also has same complain of harshness.
So bottomline is that,...if you really still want to consider it,....find someone with exactly the same car to do an exact apple to apple comparison with your car.
Else,...it is a risk for you to take if you can't find a benchmark comparison.
Relying on others' opinion are just too risky without testing by yourself. Just an example,..I do know someone who is a real confident speaker,...who tells me his family's Avanza ride quality is good,...yet complains that the latest Mercedes E-class ride is not comfortable....
I am just giving this example just to warn you about the danger of relying blindly on opinions...
Cheers.
QUOTE(DSV4600 @ Sep 3 2011, 11:44 PM)
Dear All,
Adding my review of Autofoam to this active discussion as well.
My car was recently Autofoam-ed & had some soundproofing done to my Proton Saga LMST 1.3 (M) in July 2011.
My car is almost 4 years old now, Dec 2007, with my mileage around 55,000, running on Hankook V2 Blackbird tyres (185/60/14) that have been used for around 20,000 kms. My tyre pressure for all 4 tyres is usually 250kpa.
My front bonnet also has the RM50 cheap soundproofing material affixed previously.
The package done to my car was as follows:-
1) Autofoam Luxury - Full package with roof treatment, however C pillars was not foamed to ensure proper cabin pressure
2) Soundproofing - Total Rear Package (Boot Lit & Butt Package Treatment) & Floor Package
3) OMITTED FOR LATER - Total Door Package + Front Tyres + Front Bonnet / Engine Treatment
Here's my review of the products offered as per benefits stated on KL Auto's website:-
A) Strengthen & Stiffen the cars structure and improve Torsional rigidity.
This will then drastically reduce chassis twist & flex. A stronger chassis will also transfer more energy away from the cars body. Thus you will enjoy...
~ Tighter & Tauter Ride.
~ Sharper & more Agile Handling.
~ Reduce Body Roll & Hop.
~ Improved Steering Response. => I personally feel the car is much more stiff & rigid, resulting in a more tighter ride with sharp agile handling. However, I do feel that the car's comfort levels are stiffer compared to the floaty mattress like feeling it had previously. An example of this is that on very bumpy old roads, kampung roads, untarred roads as well as damaged roads with a lot of potholes and uneven elevation, the car feels like you're driving a very quiet rally car instead of a noisy road car. This makes my stock suspensions & springs work harder as all the energy & load is being transferred to these components instead of being absorbed by the chassis flex. Even when taking to 30km/h speed bumps, you can feel the car taking the bump as an entire car without the chassis flexing as compared to previously, I could feel the front half of the car absorbing the impact of the bump before the read end takes over. With the above being said, I would say Autofoam is beneficial, but you will need to be prepared to upgrade your stock suspension & even springs perhaps to better quality ones since the chassis has been stiffened quite dramatically and thus changing the dynamics of your vehicle as previously highlighted by one of the forummers in this forum previously. This maybe a good thing or a bad thing for some people, as this is very subjective for each driver, as some prefer keeping their cars stock condition with stock parts, while some aim to improve every aspect of their car compared to the factory set-up.
B) Seals off hollow sections, NVH (Noise, Vibration, Harshness) is blocked out & absorbed.
~ Absorbs road Vibrations & Harshness for a drastically improved Ride.
~ Blocks out Noise, Dust & Moisture.
~ Absorbs Structure Borne vibrations & noise for a luxury comfort.
~ Helps reduce Body, Drivetrain Creaks & Groans. => In terms of NVH, I do feel that my car is much more silent compared to previously before doing any Autofoam. I have also done an apple to apple comparison as my mom owns the same car in stock factory condition. Whenever I'm back in Ipoh, I always leave my car in the car porch and use my mom's car instead, to feel out the differences. I always find myself wishing I was driving my own car instead due to the better NVH levels which makes me feel more relaxed when I'm driving. But enough with the subjective opinion above; here's my objective opinion:-
~~ On normal roads and highways, the car is much quieter. Outside sound is reduced, especially from the road and other vehicles (big lorries, trucks with containers, express buses, town buses, cars, and motorcycles). When I wind down my windows when the car is stationary, I can definitely feel the difference in sound levels. And when driving in the same road conditions with my mom's stock car, I always feel that her car is noisier in terms of this.
~~ On very bad road conditions & off-road, just one sentence. The car feels like a silent rally car. There's still some harshness & bumpiness in terms of the way the car & the suspension absorbs the impacts of the drive, but I still feel that the car is better compared to what it was in stock condition. But of course, this is my personal opinion and the new set-up suits my driving styles.
~~ Overall cabin / cockpit noise, creaks and groans - The noise levels in the car has been reduced significantly as I notice I'm able to listen to clearer music at lower volume levels at any speed. In terms of creaks and groans, my car hardly had any creaks and groans before this, and it remains the same. However, due to the car much more quieter than previously, the small sounds that didn't annoy me previously ended up nagging me now, but I went back to Desmond to troubleshoot this, and all sounds have been eliminated. I still do hear very strong wind sounds at high speeds, but my car doors have yet to be treated and my car has those window visors which help to create louder wind sounds as well.
Summary:-
PRO(s)
1 - Improved Ride & Handling
2 - Reduced NVH Levels
3 - Stiffer Chassis Feel
UN-TESTED / UN-PROVEN
1 - Stronger Chassis (Invisible Roll-Cage) which will help protect passengers in a car accident?
2 - Rejected Insurance Claims by Insurance Agencies when car is involved in an accident
3 - 10 Year Warranty Period. What does this mean?
CON(s)
1 - Very steep pricing of the Autofoam packages + soundproofing
2 - My wife has been complaining of being car-sick during long journeys in the car, which never happened before this.
3 - Sometimes I feel my head to be heavy + head-aches during long journeys in the car.
For now, this is my un-biased review of the products being offered by Desmond.
For CON(s) 2 & 3, I have yet to address this with Desmond as I've been busy driving all across the country with my car and clocking up more mileage to experience the differences of Autofoam, and will do so this month. Will update everyone on the outcome once I meet up with Desmond.
Would I recommend this to a friend or come back with my next new car for a repeated treatment; Hmmmmmm, well, this would be a YES or NO answer as it really depends on what an individual wants for his / her car. I was thinking about doing this treatment for more than a year, since buying my car in June 2010. I finally decided to do so because I'm planning to keep my car for the next 5/10/15/20 years without selling and I find this a worthy investment (RM4k). Desmond offers a 12 month easy payment scheme through Maybank credit cards (0% interest & service charges). Also, I considered the 3 in 1 aspects offered by the treatment (Improved NVH, better ride & handling & invisible roll-cage / stronger chassis).
Trust everyone knows the 'milo tin' feeling of any Proton Saga, and Desmond's treatment really helped do wonders to my car. And since I've seen parts of my car interior being opened up previously, I have no qualms about having my entire car interior & boot stripped naked for the Autofoam & soundproofing package. However, if it was still a new / virgin car that has yet to have any interior parts opened up, I'd rather have my car remain stock. This does not mean Desmond's team does not perform an outstanding job of stripping the car bare. They do it amazingly well, as though it was their own car, and even take the time to clean up all the accumulated dust and debris that is hidden under all the plastic and fabric in the car.
In terms of service levels & quality, I would rate KL Auto a 10/10, however, this expensive Autofoam treatment may not be everyone's cup of tea, especially if you're the type of person who changes cars every 5 years.
But for a person planning to use their car for more than 10 years - 20 years, or maybe even longer, I think it's worthwhile as I believe it will help to preserve the chassis and also reduce metal fatigue in my car. This can only be analysed and proven in the long run, as I've yet to personally meet an owner of an Autofoamed car that has aged so long and past Desmond's 10 year warranty period.
Will continue to keep everyone updated after my next visit to KL Auto.
QUOTE(Eternalgl0ry @ May 9 2017, 03:35 PM)
Yeah this is what i heard from complains from some people. I heard the boss " desmond " and his disciple only sit there cit chat and do not really work on cheap cars. Pretty hash in my opinion
I went the other day to see... All mostly teenagers doing the job... very inexperience and slow .
I would go for them if only the experienced staffs know what to do...
QUOTE(jamespaul @ Apr 19 2018, 03:09 PM)
Foaming your chassis means, giving moisture an opportunity to be trapped by the foam. Trapped moisture means rust, rust means weaker chassis
Without understanding actual car's design. Foaming cannot reduce noise and increase stiffness effectively. Also, foam is NOT even close to being as hard as steel.
When you say comfort, I presume you want reduced noise, noise rarely travel through the chassis into cabin. Sound travels in a straight line and radiates from source. Foaming your chassis is like putting a finger few centimeters away from your ear, trying not to hear the radio.
Jun 30 2010, 04:48 PM, updated 3y ago
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Even my windows have some squeaking sound and I confirm autofoam won't solve my problem because it's nothing to do with the chassis but the rubber itself, haha. I need silicon spray and some lubricant or change the whole run channel which costs a bomb 
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