DENON AVR-1909 IN COMPARISON TO 2309:-

Due to some curiousity from some forumers, I have extracted below post from AVForums & hope it helps,



Q. I noticed that the AVR 2309ci/889 is only a couple hundred more. Is it worth it to step up to the higher model?

A. The primary benefit of the 2309/889 vs the 1909/789 is the addition of the fourth HDMI input.

Both 1909/789 and 2309/889 have identical audio decoding capability, identical video processing capability, identical multizone functionality, and identical Audyssey feature sets.

This is a list of features you gain stepping up from 1909/789 to 2309/889:

1. 2 lbs heavier, and slightly more power (100Wx7 instead of 90Wx7)
2. A fourth rear HDMI input
3. A fourth rear S-video input
4. S-video and optical audio inputs on front auxilliary input
5. Dedicated phono input with pre-amp stage
6. Component video bandwidth is rated at 100MHz (up from 60MHz on 1909/789)
7. Slightly better DAC
8. Detachable power cord
9. RS232 and 12V Trigger ports (2309ci only)

Only you can decide if these features are "worth it", please do not ask


Q: I’m afraid to buy a Yamaha because it clips the HDMI video signal, and I’m afraid to buy a Harman Kardon because of all the problems with the PS3. Please tell me the Denon works?

A: Denon seems to get HDMI implementation correct.

At this point, there are no known bugs at all with the 1909/789 and the PS3. Enjoy!

The Denon 1909/789 will also correctly pass BTB/WTW signals over HDMI (no video clipping), and test patterns have confirmed that it does not touch digital video while passing it through.

The only thing generally wrong with Denons is the sucky manual!


Q. Does the AVR 1909/789 screw up the video at all?

A. Not that we know of. As noted above, all Denon AVR’s correctly pass BTB/WTW.

The 1909/789 will not do ANY processing to HDMI video. The only thing it will do is pass the video through. There is NO processing and NO degrading/clipping of HDMI video at all.

The only video processing available is analog-to-digital transcoding and scaling. The analog>digital transcode may soften the picture slightly, although you probably will never notice it. If you leave all the video settings at the defaults, the Denon will take any analog signal you input and output it via HDMI at the highest resolution setting your TV accepts.

The Faroudja scaler in the Denon does a good job in general with standard definition material (as it was specifically designed for 480i deinterlacing in progressive DVD players), but it is no great shakes in terms of scaling and HD processing (especially 1080i deinterlacing).

However, it may still be better than the video processing in your TV. You will have to test this out yourself and see which does a better job.

If you would like to disable the video processing on an analog source, set “i/p Scaler” to OFF under MENU > INPUT SETUP > VIDEO. When the scaler is set to OFF, it will just pass through analog signals to the HDMI output at the same resolution they came in, with no processing or scaling.

Q: I'm afraid to buy an Onkyo because people say it runs so hot. Does the 1909/789 run hot?

A: The 1909/789 does not run very hot. AVS member Bugs has graciously tested this out for us, his results are pasted below:

Temperature

The 1909 is a relatively cool-running component. Installed in a 5.1 system, on an open shelf, with 8" of clearance on the sides and 5" of clearance on the top and back, the 1909 had a temperature rise of 26F -28F (14C - 15C) after running for 2 hours at a volume of -18dB.

For a comparison, an Onkyo TX-SR606 installed in the same system had a temperature rise of 50F - 52 F (28C - 29C) under the same conditions.



Anyone owned a DENON AVR currently? Which model do you think is BEST value for money?

Any potential buyer, please share your view.......

1st post to reply

I would like to know the price of 1909 and 2309 (or other denon range) and where to get them.. been thinking to upgrade my pioneer VSX-812..

2309 cos nearly 3k
CMY do have denon on the shelf

if i remember correctly...3808 is about 6-7k and 4308 is around 11k....these are in msian ringgit.

Rm3k? pengsan!

what about 1509 and 1709?

Msia seldom bring in 1509/1709..so far never seen any..
the entry level i saw 1909 is almost 2k+

2309 - rm3.4k
2809 - rm4.6k

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Added on December 23, 2008, 2:45 pm1909 - RM2.6K

This post has been edited by nadky: Dec 23 2008, 02:45 PM

Nadky,

Where do you get that prices from.....? Seems very attractive huh?

Avr 1509/1709, I think you have to ask Junwei.......maybe he does carry these models.

If you would like to get a loseless audio DTS-Master, Video upscaling etc features, you have to buy at least avr-1909 onwards. Avr-1709 does not decode HD-Audio, only offer 7.1 DTS channels.

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Added on December 23, 2008, 4:03 pmI would like to know are there any other brands owners switch that have or going to switch to Denon??






This post has been edited by mikapoh: Dec 23 2008, 04:03 PM

Denon was one of the last 3 models I was considering before making the last decision.....it was a 3-way fight btwn Onkyo-Denon-Marantz.....think you can guess which won.

Bro nadky is going to get his 2309 soon..
surely he will bring this thread alive

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Added on December 23, 2008, 4:36 pmdenon is my next target IF the price is reasonable..
it just got a bit part from marantz & onkyo..to make it stand in between them..
and i think it is the only AVR still made in Japan, marantz from china, onkyo from Msia..
so thier reputation for quality is certainly there..

This post has been edited by swine: Dec 23 2008, 04:36 PM

I nearly or in fact paid a "deposit" to order a Yamaha 663, until out of nowhere, this person introduced me Denon. I have known this brand before but not really bother to see it not to mention test it.

Now that I owned Avr-1909 and is very pleased with its all-round movie presentation. I must say its strength lies on its all channels sound separation whereby front, centre & rear are clearly feeded from the amp. The dynamic effects generated from the surround is second to none. These strengths are partly due to its "softer" approach to sound being amplified. Unlike some other brands which produce warmer & omph sound.

The LCD display at front panel is LARGE compare to its rivals. I think Onkyo is the worst. It will reads DTS SURROUND in BIG font at the panel or DOLBY DIGITAL, DTS-MASTER etc... when difference sources are detected. The smaller 7.1 speakers boxes signal will also lit telling you how many speakers are in active.......for different listening.

Even switch to Astro FM radio, you can even sense its dynamic sound. Test it and you know what I mean.

The cons are many features are hiding no thanks to its unfriendly manual. Eg, for manually ajusting the speaker levels after running auto set-up, I have to re-read the manual few times. The steps are not in sequence. The volumme of 90W per channel might not be sufficient for very large room, I guess. There are also no pre-amp out to add more power in the future. However, to me I dont listen even at reference level. I even have to run Audyssey EQ at nite and I must say it spice-up all the speakers at lower volume like -28db and above. Just love the babe................cheers.

the whole denon range are made in Japan? the 3808 i saw...think it is not japanese made.

and onkyo 905 i saw was made in japan as well.

i tried the 2309 b4 finally get my hands on 805..
was surprise this entry level 2309 beat my 805 in terms of dynamic on the same set of speaker use for audition..
the sound separation is far better than 805, and it is very good for gaming if u plug in for PS3..
entry level amp made from japan hard to believe huh..
and not to mention i think denon have a better looking avr, onkyo worst..

i tested the 2809 with AL24 (deeply impressed and would like to get it ASAP)
but the price is really
i cant resist the package offer by 805, and i cant persuade myself to get an entry level 2309 at that price..
so i end up in Onkyos

Hey, 2309 is not entry level. It should rates as middle range....

Maybe some Denon distributor would like to clarify on this issue.

If you compare Denon price with Singapore, I bet you will ahve cardiac arrest instantly.

I owned a Denon before; AVR-2802. At first, thought of upgrading to AVR-2808. Checked the price with WKH, nearly fell off the seat. RM4.8K (at that time) Bloody expensive. In Singapore, it is more than a grand cheaper after the bloody high forex rate. That's sort of daylight robbery. For RM.48K, you might be able to get AVR-3808 from down south. Siao.

Finally, have to settle for Yamaha RX-V1800 as it is more reasonably price.

u gonna to miss denon ? no?

I thought hiwaylaser listed the 3808 for RM5.4k only?

I bought Denon AVR-2308 just 6 months ago for RM3.2K and now they came out with 2309 with better spec with around same price... Crap...

While i don't have any problems with the Denon, i do agree that Denon's price in Malaysia is really really over-prized.

The only saving grace is that the 2308 is "Made in Japan", if that supposedly means better quality.

I'll probably choose another brand if i ever upgrade or buy another AVR. Unless, i can buy from Singapore, throw away the box and bring it back in the car boot. Anyone has any problem/experience with Kastam?

This post has been edited by longmile9: Dec 23 2008, 11:16 PM

For 3808 ...WKH is selling too expensive... I can give you guys less than 5.8K ..

I do have 1509, 1709, 1909, 2309 in stock ... But 1509, 1909, 2309 all sold out ...
Waiting for my next shipment which is supposed to arrive end of Dec ...around 27Dec ....

2309 is consider as mid-range n it's made in Japan ...

I am using 2309 and i like it after few weeks ...Not quite used to the sound at first but I really like the Audessey because I usually watch movies at night (after 10pm) ...

By the way .... new product is coming .. Media box with Full HD and DTS-HD function are coming soon ...expecting 70 Bluray Titles in two 3TB drives ...Price around 3-4K ...

I will probably carry some Onkyo next year .. waiting for the best price from my distributor ...but my main products are still Denon & Marantz & Mordaunt Short & Proac.

I bought my 2807... cheap cheap... RM2500 nia. Still can HDMI... still can do whatever...

timothy, good choice on the 2807 for the price. I would have chosen that instead of the 2308 if only they were selling at that price then. Enjoy your Denon.

So u have been using 2807, & can we have your review on its performance please??

Eerrr..... Review? eeerrr... it is on the floor... with my 2 front speakers, centre speaker and sub. Surround not installed yet as I have some problem with my plaster ceiling.

Then, I play music from my PS3 and leave it on and I do my own things upstairs. He! He! He!
Have not calibrated anything...

So... review? Can't really do so coz I have not fully utilise the potential of this machine... After Christmas... I'll be able to do...

wat is the price for 2309 ?? hmmm much better than 2308

as stated 3.4k by Nadky who recently bought

The price of 2309 should be RM3,xxx but less than RM4k for sure......subject to your negotiation with your dealer...


FEATURES


GENERAL Availability August 2008

Finish Black

--> Power Output; Watts Per Channel 100

All Channels Rated @ 0.05 THD –

All Channels Rated @ 0.08 THD

Weight: In Pounds 27.1

Width (inches) 17.1

Height (inches) 6.7

Depth (inches) 16.9


SOUND MODES
THX Ultra2-Certified –

Dynamic Discrete Surround Circuit – D.D.S.C - D –

Processor(s) – Bit Depth and Type 1 - 21367 32-bit Floating Point

Dolby Pro Logic IIx – with Cinema, Music, Game Modes

THX Post-Processing – DPL (4.0), DPL2 Cinema, DD/DTS (5.1), ES Discrete (6.1), ES Matrix, Neo:6 Cinema –

THX Ultra2 7.1 Cinema, Music and Game Modes –

THX Surround EX Decoding –

Dolby Digital Plus –

Dolby Digital Surround EX Decoding

Dolby Digital Pro Logic II –

dts ES Discrete 6.1 Decoding

dts ES Matrix 6.1 Decoding

dts Neo:6 Stereo-to-Surround Cinema and Music Modes

dts 96/24 5.1 for DVD-Video Processing

Dolby Headphone –

HDCD Decoder –

Audio Signal Delay (Sync. Audio with Video signal) – By source

Pure Direct/Direct/Stereo Modes on Digital/Analog inputs

Stereo/Direct Modes w/Pure Analog Path

5-Channel Stereo Mode –

5-Channel Equal Power –

Video Game Mode

Wide Screen 7.1 Mode

Mono Movie Surround Mode

Rock Arena Surround Mode

Matrix Surround Mode

Jazz Club Surround Mode

Virtual Surround Mode – For 2 Speakers/Headphones

Multi-Channel Stereo Mode 5/6/7

DSP Effect Modes 7

Auto Surround Mode (Analog or Digital Input Type)

Active Center Channel In All Surround Modes

Dynamic Discrete Surround Circuit - Digital HD Dynamic Discrete Surround Circuit - Digital HD

Dolby TrueHD and Dolby Digital+

dts-HD Master Audio

MP3 Decoding –

WMA Decoding –

HD Radio –

tr> XMHD

Neural Surround Mode XMHD


CONNECTIVITY
True 24-bit/96-kHz Digital Input Capability

True 24-bit/192-kHz Digital Input Capability (Denon Link & 1394) –

Assignable Digital Inputs

Digital Input – DENON Link 3rd (SACD Ready) –

IEEE-1394 Digital Audio Input/Output –

Digital Inputs: Coaxial 2

Digital Inputs: Optical 2

Digital Outputs: Optical 1

Digital to Analog REC Out

Analog Audio Inputs, Incl. Tuner 9

Phono Input

Source Function Renaming

Analog Record Outputs 2

Front Panel A/V Inputs w/Cover * Composite and S-Video * with Optical

Video Conversion –Composite to S-Video to Component

Video Conversion – Composite to S-Video to Composite

Video Conversion – Analog to HDMI –

DVI/HDMI Video Inputs – Compatible with 1.1 Spec. – Multi-Channel Audio *1080p HDMI –

HDMI Video Outputs *1080p *

Composite Video Inputs 4

Composite Video Outputs 2

S-Video Inputs 4

S-Video Outputs 2

Component Video Inputs x Bandwidth - *Assignable *3 x 100

Component Video Outputs

6-Ch. External Analog Input –

8-Ch. External Analog Input

Banana Plug Speaker Terminals, All Channels

Cinema EQ

Front A/B Speaker Selector –

56 Station Auto-Preset Memory Tuning

Radio Data System (RDS) –

XM Satellite Radio 'Connect and Play' Ready – with optional antenna –

Sirius Ready

Rhapsody –

Direct Function (Tone Bypass)

Volume Control Un-muting

Selectable Muting Levels (Full/-40/-20)

Video Select Control

RS-232 Port – Third Party Remote Controllers

RJ-45 Ethernet Port – Same Functionality as AVR-5805/4806 –

PC Setup and Control Capability via RS-232C

IR Serial Remote In/Out terminals –

+12v Trigger Output - Assignable –

Multi-Source/Multi-Zone (*Uses REC OUT) –

Pre-amp Outputs for Multi-Zone

High Pass Filter for Multi-Zone Outputs –

Multi-Zone Pre-Amp Outputs – Selectable Output Levels –

Discrete Multi-Zone Composite Video Output - *S-Video also –

Discrete Remote Power On/Off, Source Selection and Volume for Main and Second/Third* Zones

Discrete Remote Source Selection for Zone 3 –

Assignable Amplifier Configuration of Surround Back Channels –

Speaker Time-Delay and Level Controls: L/R, Sub, C, Surr. L/R, Surround Back

Pre-Amp Outputs Sub

Internet Radio –

iPod Port (Using optional AKP-100 cable) –

iPod Dock Control Port (Using optional ASD-1R Denon iDock)

USB Flash Drive Port –



pre Labled Assignable Digital Inputs

BNC Digital Inputs - Audio & Video –

Digital to Analog Conversion Multi Zone Outputs –

XLR Analog Input –

XLR Analog Output –

Input Delete Function

Front Panel AV Inputs Inside Panel Composite & S-video –

s-Video Down Conversion 2nd Zone –

Video Conversion Analog to HDMI Scaling 480p 720p 1080i 1080p

Faroudja DCDi Video Processing and Scaling FLI2310

Silicon Optix Realta HQV Processing and Scaling –

HDMI Video Output s1.1 Spec 1080p –

HDMI 1.3a Inputs 4

HDMI 1.3a Outputs 1

HDMI Audio/Video Repeater Function

HDMI Video Switching Function –

HDMI Deep Color Support-36Bit

HDMI xvYCC Color Space Support

HDMI SACD Support –

Component Video Output 2nd Zone –

10-Ch External Analog Input –

Enhanced Power Amp Assignment –

Builtin WiFi Connectivity WiFi B/G certified –

Network Enabled –

USB Port with HDD Support –
HQV –

COMPONENT TECHNOLOGY
Equal Power Amplifiers

Low Impedance Drive Capability

High-Current/Discrete Amplifiers

Independent Power Supplies

Pure Audio Construction –

Toroidal Power Transformer –

Dolby Digital, dts and DSP Modes – Analog Devices, HammerHead SHARC

Dolby Digital, dts and DSP Modes – Texas Instruments Aureus –

AL24 Processing - All Channels –

24-bit/192-kHz DACs – Burr-Brown PCM-1791 –

24-bit/192-kHz DACs - Analog Devices 24-bit/192-192kHz ADAU1328

Analog-to-Digital Conversion - Bit Depth/Sampling Rate 24-bit/96-kHz ADAU1328

Variable High/Low Pass Crossover Points (12/24dB) 40/60/80/100/120/150/200/250

Built In Time Based Correction

Advanced AL24 Processing Multi Channel –

Automatic Lip Sync

HD Radio Tuner Built-in –


CONVENIENCE FEATURES
Front Panel A/B Speaker Selector

Auto Setup Calibration

Auto/Manual Room Equalization

Audyssey MultEqxt Room Eq. with up to eight position setup –

Audyssey MultEQ

Audyssey Dynamic Volume

Auto Setup Microphone Included/Type Y/Mold DM-A409

Dual Surround Mode Spkr. Selector –

Icon-Based On-Screen Display

Front Panel System Setup Control

Personal Memory Plus

System Setup/Surround Parameters Lockout

Relay-Controlled Protection Circuits

Microprocessor User Re-set Y/pg. 64

Detachable Power Cord

Subwoofer Peak-Level Limiter (THX) –

Pre-programmed (10 Devices) Glow Key Remote Control with Punch Through Commands –

Pre-programmed/Learning EL Remote with Backlighting and Punch Through Commands –


Audyssey MultEQ XT Room Correction with up to eight position setup –

Audyssey Mult EQ Room Correction Positions 6



Attached thumbnail(s)

not a bad one for 2309
jsut lack of the 2809 wit 24AL which is more tempting

DENON lowest crossover is 80HZ..........How come it cannot go lower than that for those who have larger floorstanders which can produce lower bass frequency?

I am wondering does Denon has multi-channels crossover? The lowest 80HZ is overall cut-off frequency for all speakers channels. 80Hz is recommended by THX but if you are using smaller satellite speakers, the crossover should be set much higher, probably around 120Hz......

However, most of the people I know are using bigger front speakers or centre speakers and the surround speakers are of smaller size, more like satellite speakers. One way is to save space at the back which can wall-mount the surround. Bigger size speakers like Bookshelf as surround will have to find a pair of proper speaker stand or shelf to accomodate them. So, by setting the standard recommended corssover of 80Hz, this will load the smaller surround spearkers much more burden which they cant generate even close to 100Hz, not to say 80Hz. As as result, they will sound distortion. In turn, if we tweak the crossover higher to say 120Hz, the larger front speakers will not be fully-utiilised. By offering multi-channel crossover settings, it will sounds more practical as most of us have very different sizes of speakers. WHat's your view?

please correct me if i'm wrong. the crossover means if u have .1 setup (i.e. 5.1) with .1 being the subwoofer. the 80Hz is the cut-off point for the front speakers and the subwoofer. eventhough you have a floorstanders that can go as low as 30Hz or below, it will be better if the receiver lets the subwoofer to handle lower frequencies, maybe to avoid the speakers koyak. coz movies got more thumps and rumbles. i think there are other receivers that have lower cut-off frequencies but the recommended is still 80Hz

I'm not a Denon owner obviosly, but both of you are correct about the crossover setting. Recommended setting for HT is 80Hz, but if your speakers can go lower there's nothing wrong to set it lower.

So, the Denon can only do one crossover setting for all speakers? My Yamaha RX-V1800 was the same, that's why I sold it off. My fronts can go much lower but my surrounds can just go down to 80Hz only. With one setting, I have to set 80-90Hz for all the speakers, which will waste the true potential of my fronts. With individual crossover setting, I can have different crossover settings for fronts, center, surrounds and surround back.

Wahlau, how much did you sell your V1800 for?

Sigh, some of the top branded av manufacturers just followed rigidly what the THX certified. They still think it is widely acceptable crossover frequency. I dont know top model Denon has to offer about multi crossover settings. Maybe Junwei can help as main distributor of Denon.

However, in UK, they dont normally set the crossover lower than 80Hz. They claimed the front and the Sub will produce DOUBLE BASS which can distort the lower bass freqency as timing of the two bass will be different.

Some of expert there recommend to change all front to small and tweak it higher to 120Hz! .....and let the Sub do the job. I will still stick to 80Hz as starting point. But, let see the below article extracted:-


[B]OK, What if my Speakers are considered LARGE

For some, your main speakers may actually extend down to 30Hz or lower, especially if they include 10” or 12” side-firing low frequency drivers. The temptation will be to set these speakers to LARGE., The setting is there so there must be a place for its use, right? Actually, we recommend setting almost all speakers to SMALL, even if they are physically large floorstanding speakers. Here’s why: Even though those floorstanders have a low extension, they won’t necessarily go down to the lowest range of your subwoofer as linearly and free of compression (unless your main speakers have more piston area and box volume than your sub – but we won’t address that here) The problem with the LARGE setting is: the ultra low frequency information will not be heard if the speaker cannot reproduce it. Well if by some chance you were able to get your main speakers bass extension flat down to 20Hz, then adding the subwoofer on top of that would yield too much (up to 6dB) of bass output at the frequencies both are producing. Hence integration between the loudspeakers and subwoofer will be poor and the bass may be overpowering, sloppy and/or boomy.


As a practical example, Reference System 3 has a pair of RBH Sound 1266-LSEs which extend down to 32Hz. I have them set to SMALL and I set my crossover frequency to 60Hz. Because of this, the subwoofer handles everything up to 60Hz that would otherwise go to my front speakers. The front speakers are now freed up to concentrate on only 60Hz and up. The result is no lost information, less distortion, more headroom and a better overall sound.


written by Audioholics editor....

i sold to a fellow forumer, a very good deal for both of us.

The Onkyo also THX-certified but it only recommends to set at 80Hz, it does not force it. I also set all my speakers to small, only the crossover settings different. For surround I put 80Hz, fronts 60Hz and center 70Hz.

Actually you can set to whatever you want as long as it don't go below your speaker capabilitites. The one rule for all audiophle always come in the end, listen to it and set to what it sounds best to your ears.

if my front is diamond 9.5 so would i set to large or small?
and the crossover how much shud i set? 10hz above the lowest frequency??
onkyo user here

This post has been edited by swine: Dec 24 2008, 01:30 PM

My Denon AVR-2308 can set individual speaker crossover freq for front, center, sub, surround and surround back speakers. New AVR-2309 should be able to set individual speaker crossover freq as well.

Longmile9, are u sure avr-2308 is able to set individual speakers crossover??

Thats great, you dont have to spend a fortune to get this feature....BTW, how do you set the crossover for all your speakers, if you dont mind telling us..........

mikapoh,

Hint: Set "Subwoofer Setup" to "LFE+Main".

1. Menu > Manual Setup > Speaker Setup > Subwoofer Setup

2. Once done, set the individual speaker x-over freq - Menu > Manual Setup > Speaker Setup > Crossover Frequency > Advanced

BTW, subwoofer x-over freq can be set down to 40Hz & 60Hz as well, not just 80Hz... Enjoy.

This post has been edited by longmile9: Dec 24 2008, 11:45 PM

Merry X'mas to all!

My father juz gotten denon AVR 1709 few days ago at RM 1600.
Is tis a reasonable price?
Then after chacking, I realised it doesnt support DTS-HD, Dolby True HD and no 1080P upscaling.
So, I thinking of asking my father to get it changed to at least Denon AVR 1909. So, may I know wat is the price for AVR 1909 on market?
Is it worth to change to AVR 1909 since I have a FULL HD LCD panel at home but the sad thing is, I have no HD player. Only using DVD player with no upscaling function. So is the upscaling in AVR 1909 does a good job?
I think AVR 2309 is way out of budget since it is more than 3k.

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Added on December 25, 2008, 2:06 pmHow about AVR 2808?
Since it also can decode DTS-HD and Dolby-True HD, got 1080P upscaling somemore. Wat is the price?
Worth buying?

This post has been edited by cougar richard: Dec 25 2008, 02:06 PM

A change is necessary if you plan to add a bluray player to your HT combo in the future. At least AVR-1909 model onwards will support HD Audio. I guess your AVR-1709 only decodes DTS or Dolby 7.1 only. So, if you want future proof amp, go change it...... . Dont think twice!

I still think the 1909 is doing a very reasonable job in upscaling the video signal. However, some prefer to use their dvdp to upscale. It is up to your eyes to judge.

Thanks for ur reply, but need to pay for another RM 1000 in case if that fellow willing to take it back at buying price which is RM 1600. A bit disappointed with new the new range receiver but still doing old job for DTS decoding only. And the price ain't cheap thou!
So RM 1600 for AVR 1709 is reasonable? Or my father get conned again?

How abt the price for AVR 2808? It decodes DTS-HD and upscaling too.

Richard,

My opinion is that you don't have to change it if your 1709 support Multichannel LPCM audio via HDMI and you want to save some money. When you get bluray player in future, just make sure you get a bluray player that can decode the HD audio format on the player itself and sent the decoded signal to the 1709 via HDMI in Multichannel LPCM format (e.g. PS3). You still can enjoy full HD video and audio this way.

If you die die must get HD decoding on the AVR itself or want more features (e.g. more HDMI inputs, more power, etc, etc.), then you have to upgrade but be prepared to pay much much more $$$.

Hope this help.

This post has been edited by longmile9: Dec 25 2008, 06:15 PM

I tot PS3 can;t do it for DTS-MA? only TrueHD mah?

Richard,

Upon checking the 1709 spec in the Denon manual, the 1709 does not seem to support Multichannel LPCM. Only 1909 model and upwards support Mulichannel LPCM audio input. Guess you have to upgrade after all if you really want to future proof with HD playback. Good luck.

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Added on December 25, 2008, 7:14 pmar188, i thought blu-ray playback support for DTS-HD Master Audio and DTS-HD High Resolution Audio is available on the PS3 since firmware 2.36.

This post has been edited by longmile9: Dec 25 2008, 07:16 PM

Yup, it's been very long time already. PS3 can decode whatever codec that exists in on BD/DVD now, lossless or otherwise.

Wow!!!
Ur reply like an advise from parents to a child.
Feels warm and really go into my heart when reading it.
Yeah, it is not future proof and it is still decoding old format.
and the price is not worth for an old technology
for that using HD player to decode and then feed the signal thru HDMI for LPCM, i will look into more details.
Thanks for enlighten me.
Now juz depends on my father whether willing to spend for it o not?
But AVR 2808 is also capable of handling HD signal, i dont mind it is older model as long as the price is rite.
So mind to let me know the current market price for tis babe?

Longmile9,

For 1909, isn't it can decode all HD-Audio by the amp itself right? Therefore not necessary to use PS3 to feed in LPCM. I think it will sound better to bitstream the HD signal & let the amp decodes internally.

You're welcome. Just trying to help. 2808 is good but sorry, i don't know what's the current market price.

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Added on December 25, 2008, 11:15 pmYup, you're right, 1909 can decode HD format. I was only making reference to Multichannel LPCM capability with regards to the 1709 and higher-end Denon models.

As to whether AVR decodes the bitstream or M-LPCM sounds better, i have not done any A/B comparison nor have any experience. I guess it depends on which has the better HD decoder.

This post has been edited by longmile9: Dec 25 2008, 11:15 PM

AVR-2808 was being sold at near to RM5K mark. Since it is being replaced by 2809, I think it is abt RM4.2K mark

Still so expensive!!
then forget it, either juz bear wif 1709 or if my father wanna get it changed to 1909, then tat will be great.
but anyhow, i still think RM1600 for juz DTS decoding capability nowadays is still overpricing.
I would rather stick to the old Yamaha RX-V361 which also decodes DTS too.
No deny tat 1709 has certain features which should be outperformed RX-V361.
But the price is half of 1709 only. So i think it is not worth.
But wat to do? I father has already bought it home..

Hey guys,

I am thinking that AVR-1709 is able to support True HD-Audio via LPCM from PS3. Looking at the back panel of the amp, it features 8 channels audio input. Correct me if I m wrong, you can use PS3 to decode & then connect all individual speakers channels to these input and you will still receive True HD surround sound........... ?
If not, what are these 8 channels input for (FL, FR, C, SW, SR, SL, SBL, SRL) ?

Well, there is no need to think abt upgrading to 1909 since my father says the price selling here is RM2.9k. need to top up another RM1.3k for tis entry level HD AVR. for RM2.9k n get urself juz an entry level HD AVR, tis is totally not worth for any single cent tat i spend. Wait for the price stable then only get another AVR.

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Added on December 26, 2008, 2:45 pmWell, i think tis could be done provided the player can decode the DTS-HD signal to analog for input purposes.
But would it be as good as the AVR itself wif built in DTS-HD decoder?
I mean since it is analog input and the AVR itself has hardware quality restriction, means maybe it cannot reproduce HD signal well (or maybe bandwidth restriction, internal components quality limitation).
Another thing is, compare HDMI signal flow (digitla) from player to RCA (analog) signal, would the signal lost significantly or get distorted due to transfer via analog RCA cable?
And wat is the current blu-ray player that can decode into one-to-one channel (thru RCA) analog input?

This post has been edited by cougar richard: Dec 26 2008, 02:45 PM

I believe the older Sony S300 and the Panny BD50 and BD55.

Panny BD30 cannot decode the BD lossy audio that is why I have to buy the Onkyo 875. Previous AVR is the Pioneer VSX 917.

Another ques, since 1709 is bi-ampable.
so the frequencies produce from Front and surround back/amp assign is same (full range freq)?
or which is producing low freq and which is producing high freq?

My guess would be the same since it doesnt says which is producing high freq and low freq.

Any of u hv tried? is it improved sq significantly?

PS3 doesn't have multichannel analogue outs (only stereo). You can only get the multichannel lossless audio in digital form (PCM) via HDMI. So the receiver must at least can accept multichannel PCM via HDMI (DTS-HD MA/Dolby TrueHD decoder is not needed) if you use a PS3.

If you use multichannel analogue outs (from standalone BD players like Sony BDP-S550 and Panasonic DMP-BD55), you will still get the lossless audio, the only different is that the player already decode and use it's own DAC to convert to analogue. This way, the receiver now works as an amplifier only, usually no further processing is done. But as the interconnect is analogue, you should get a good quality cable to ensure good signal transfer and minimal noise interference.


You mean lossless right? The BD30 can decode all the standard audio except Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA.


Both front and surround will send both low and high frequencies. When either of them connected to the high frequency terminal on the speaker, the speaker will only take the high frequency signal from the receiver. Same thing for the low frequency terminal.

This post has been edited by aiman04: Dec 26 2008, 08:25 PM

Thanks for answering my ques, but another ques arise.
My lousy speakers do not stated there which input is for high freq and which is for low freq.
If the speakers drivers are linked together internally for woofers, mid and tweeter, so bi-amp it is actually consider double the power input for that speakers? would it cause any harm to speakers?
If I run diff brand n diff quality of cables to speakers, the quality will be affected?
or should i get the exactly same brand n model to run bi-amping?

Good reply from aiman04. Now we get hell a lot better understanding about receiving lossless signal.

Richard, your question each time gets more complicated......

oh really?
juz curious, since i hv read the instruction manual of the AVR.
then ques arises.
acutally i still hv some ques abt auto setup

what if the setup is only 5.1, but AVR capable of 7.1, since the rear surrounds are not utilized we can use it to bi-amp the front speakers... would that improve sound quality from front speakers?

so ppl said it will improve... check ur front speakers support bi-amp or not


btw... HD audio... if u watch unker ho DVD/d-load movie also no point

no need to talk until 5-6k for 1 biji amp

This post has been edited by megatron007: Dec 27 2008, 09:09 AM

my speakers bi-ampable.. guess will have to invest in extra cables to try out.

Thinking of setting up the 1709 using auto setup mic, but after read thru the useer manual, i dont understand wat is the meaning of "Defeat Volume" of the subwoofer? Does it mean turn off the volume of the subwoofer?
If turn it off then how to configure for the sub setting?

Richard,

It does not mean you turn off the volume of the Sub. For basic Sub volume, it should be set at 12 o'clock & set the frequency level to the max. Then Audyssey will do the calculation later.

I think you should visit this site for more details;

Official Audyssey Details Set-Up


Enjoy your reading & make sure you tweak the kits up.

Well, for me, I will manually adjust the Sub volume via Denon AVR. For dvd, I adjust to +2.5db and for Astro I set it to +8db so that to get a bit of bass for assstro listening, no complain la.....what to do, the least I can do. I will also set my astro input to Dolby PLII Cinema so that the dialogue can channel to the centre speaker.

Tell me your settings after running the auto set-up in your room....

Wow!!!
Thanks for ur input again, mika.
Well, this muz be done in a quiet environment.
will be doin it when i go back home nxt week, cant wait to try it out. not sure would it really improve the sound significantly.
Anyway, some time i really hate to do tuning also. coz my family members will shift the speakers position after I tuned the system.
Worst thing is, they will simply adjust the setting according to their own taste. So sometime i also lazy to bother, anyway, tats my fathers property, so he can juz do watever he want. But I will still gv it a try since i so curious abt it.
gonna take time to read up the Audyssey setting.

Well, I am just wondering why your father is so keen in tuning the AVR settings. I guess most of our old men, wives or uncles would like the system to tune everything for them so that they plug & play. Just like HTIB system. To tune an AVR properly is not a straight forward thing. YOu got to study & read up a bit.

It is true that it says the Auto setup has to run in a very quiet room with minimu noise. After running the set-up, speakers are to remain where they are placed to avoid inaccurate timing & speakers not integrate correctly. But some people prefer to do manual settings as they dont like the conservative settings of Audyssey mult-EQ. I personally prefer Audyssey EQ but not its dynamic volume, when watching movies as I dont listen in very high volume. Average volume for me is at -28db and at this volume, the audyssey EQ is doing wonderful job in presenting open yet dynamic sound across all speakers.

As for astro, I set to dynamic volume ON because there are plenty of advertisements noise that keep charging up at your ears.......

Actually my parents prefer strong bass and high treble, like the previous Yamaha receiver has a "music enhanced" feature, my father like to turn it on and then set high gain for each speaker like +6db, then the treble and bass also cranked up to +4/+6 db. To me, it was done too over, i found the sound was distorted and treble and bass were overwhelmed. Some time my ears will get hurt by the sound coz it is way too sharp! Not smooth at all.
Well, I cant do anything also since they pay for it and not mine.

Another thing is, normally the user manual will says the Dolby Prologic will create surround sound even if the input sound is stereo. I think tis is not rite to me at all. I hv tried using tis mode when passing thru the sound from TV ( normal TV program) to receiver, and I do hope it could really create a surround feel to me, but always disappointed me.
The sound like all go to the center where main speaker is not working well wif the centre. not to mention the surround, i cant even hear anything which suppose to be come out from surround speakers. So, i normally will switch to 5 channel stereo to gv a boost to the sound.

ur parents??? fuyoo.... still so happening huh ?

if my dad i guess watched 20-30mins fall asleep..

well... actually my father is the 1 who tune the system.
they normally listen to song, those chinese oldies but is remix to cha cha type.
So, it is actually quite rythmic and i like it too sometime.
They seldom watch DVD also, juz sometime only.
Me also less watching, coz no mood to sitting down for an hr++

But with new Denon AVR-1709, I am sure you will discover more in your dvd collection. This will in turn make you glue to movies more than ever.......not to mention BD movies though...

ahaha....
BD is till very expensive, but no point to get BD player at the moment since WD HD player is so cheap and it provides decent quality i suppose.
After watching BD, actually dont really like to watch DVD already due to the PQ diff really really a lot.
haha, anyway will try to arrange time to test out tis new toy in my house. Still thinking on how to get the auto mic setup optimized.
Been reading here and there for 2 days.
Well, hope you have a great day in first day of the year in 2009!
cheers~

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Added on January 1, 2009, 9:30 amWell, after reading a few thread about setting up the Audyssey. It says that we should avoid standing in the middle and holding the mic. So, my ques is:

Where the hell should I hide myself in which corner of my room in order
to minimize the reflection from my body?

If get out from the room then, how am I goin to set it?

This post has been edited by cougar richard: Jan 1 2009, 09:30 AM

BD is not about the 1080p picture

u get lossless audio

of coz BD is about the picture.. if not, every one just get MKV+7.1 lossless audio, and free...

BD is abt BOTH 1080P and DTS-HD MA

Hi fellow Denon sensei

i am a newbie in home theater system and in need of extra opinion, especially from Denon experience player.

Recently my friend offered to sell me a 2nd home theater set for RM 2K after i conveyed my interest to him. They consists of :

- Denon AVR 1800 (gold colour with remote control)
- JBL subwoofer PS100 (2x2, wood encase, black colour)
- JBL surround Flix2 (1 foot tall, wood encase, black colour)
- JBL central Flix2 (2 feet long, wood encase, black colour)
- Duke DK760s 3 way speaker for front (4ft tall, wood encase, dark maroon colour)
- includes standard wiring
- no warranty as it is a 2nd hand set

My intention is to hook up HTPC to avr, listening to some music via HTPC and 90% watch movie via HTPC. Watching DVD from DVD player would be 10 % of the time. In future may include hooking up PS3 to the avr. The home theater set is situated in my living hall in a double storey link house. My LCD, DVD and HTPC comes with HDMI.

Here are some of my questions :

1) Is it worth considering since the AVR1800 is more than 10 years old ?

2) What would be alternative recommendation if I were to purchase a new set with a budget of ~RM 2K ?

thanks fellow Denon user

Char,

May I know how much your friend offer to you 2nd HT sets? less than RM2k?

Folk out RM1k to take back whole kits except the AVR1800.

Well, since you are planning to buy PS3 which will play HD audio in the future, it is pointless to take on the 1800 coz it cant play the loseless audio. It is considered outdated amp with no HDMI connectivity. To enjoy bluray audio, for a start, you need to get AVR-1909. However, it is > RM2k. Maybe the price has dropped now......

thanks mikapoh for your advise. i would think 1800 is a bit old.

denon avr1909 cheapest found is RM2,600 in M'sia..

for cheap & really good AVR, i'd go for Yamaha V663 - can get around RM1850..

i'm not expert but i did some research as i'm budgeting for my HT set now...

I was actually a Denon fan. Due to the exorbitant price of AVR-2808, I've to opt for Yamaha RX-V1800. Denon's surr steering is outstanding but the price is a real turn-off for peasant like me.

Tried out AudysseyEQ yest. Has some improvement for surround effect.
But i think still need some tweak to fine tune it.
Dont really like Dynamic Vol, it brings volume to real low level. Lost many details. Sometime dont like Dynamic EQ also. It enhances the bass too much but not the details of the sound. causes the sound very muddy.

For my case, the Audyssey always set my surround level higher than other front speakers eventhough they are nearest to my listening position.

I always watch with mulit-EQ but dynamic volumme off except astro where there plenty annoying advertisement noise. I found with the EQ on, the surround effect are greatly enhanced. But, if you like to watch your movie at high volumme, then turning the EQ off is ideal.
My LFE vol is at 12 o'clock at the sub and the +2.5db at the avr. For astro, I have made it memorised to +8.0db so to boost the bass frequency.

Well, the surround speakers also nearer to sitting position than center and front. The level also higher than the other. I think probably this is due to surround speakers are relatively small and won't be able to produce louder sound in order to match with the front and center. So i think need to boost it to match with them. But my sub is at -8.0dB. Volume is also at 12 o'clock and the freq cut is at 85Hz. But the setting for freq cut for surround and center is 40Hz. So I tweak it manually to 80Hz which makes sense sonically. But somehow after make some tweaking, the audyssey light turns to red instead of green. I believe the AVR recognises the setting has deviates from the Auto Mic setup. Not sure with the red lights on, the Audyssey will still running? Hmmm....

Richard,

If the Audyssey lights turns red, it means you are turnning the dynamic EQ On & dynamic volume Off. If it shows green, both EQ & Volume are active.

If you adjust the settings after running auto setup, the Audyssey will detect it and you can notice it on the display screen of your avr. The frame box of the Audyssey on the display panel will disappear. Check it......& have fun.

i know that Audyssey lights turns red, it means you are turnning the dynamic EQ On & dynamic volume Off. If it shows green, both EQ & Volume are active. But i meant the other light, which is the Audyssey, after i pressing the system set up button and actually juz do some checking for the setting, the light gets turn red after it. to be exact, is rite after the speakers distance setting part is out. Actually i did not do tweak with it. Anyway, since it is already red, then i juz set the freq cut for each speakers to match the exact output capability.

anyone got latest pricing for 1909 and 2309 ?

penang 1909 2.6k(cash), wonder how much kl selling?

try pm HTkaki .. maybe he got lubang...

I did, waiting for him to reply. Sigh....... I called singapore AV shop last nite.... this 1909 is also around SGD600+ ......... another super mark up price by Wong Kee Hong Electronics. Onkyo also like this. Only Yamaha pricing is almost the same as SG.

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Added on March 29, 2009, 3:40 pmDenon AVR1909 -------------- SGD$707 + 7% GST Tax
Denon AVR2309 -------------- SGD$972 + 7% GST Tax
Denon AVR2809 -------------- SGD$1402 + 7% GST Tax


This post has been edited by dopp: Mar 29 2009, 03:40 PM

Coz Yamaha controls its own products unlike Denon, Marantz and Onkyo, that are being controlled by distributor.

then get yamaha la... no more prob