True. But unless we understand faith and grace in the reality of the union of Christ, we will go to two extremes:


1) We became dead passive thinking that Christ will do "everything".

2) Or, we will use our flesh to work out our on-going salvation (work).

This post has been edited by pehkay: Sep 12 2019, 02:47 PM

not advocating on dead passive, don't misunderstand, just cutting of the dependency.

The problem in the Christian world is that I think there are people who gauge themselves on the merit of how obedient they are to God as the qualification.

That has always been prevalent and has caused faith to take side step.

I don't disagree with what you are saying (hoping not to misunderstood you).

IMHO, in general (not talking about your comments but to all), we all need to take a step back .... always assuming that the other is hopefully not in the extremes that I mentioned.

The truth is always twofold (not digressing on how it can be reconciled). But most of us here are somewhat having the view of this *somehow* XD

It is not like we are 100% 0% VS 100% 0%

Another brother's presentation of (50% 50%) may appear to another as 10% 90% in which he tries to argue back. While the other's understanding in potraying 50% 50% may ... returns 0 100% or 10% 90% to the other.

------------------------

But back to your comment, yeah, gauging on the own obedience can unfortunately falls to the effort of the flesh. But that is unfortunately a lack of understanding of what faith is.

For example, justification by faith.

The Christ who is preached to us is infused into us through the word of the gospel. Faith is not merely a mental comprehension of the things preached. Rather it is the apprehended reality of what is preached; Faith comes from hearing the word of Christ, and this word is not simply about Christ but that which bears Christ into us. The ability to believe that is infused into us (work) is actually Christ as our faith.

This faith is the faith of Jesus Christ in us, which has become the faith by which we believe in Him, as in Rom 3:22, 26; Gal. 2:16, 20; 3:22; Eph. 3:12; and Phil. 3:9. This can only be understood in the union of Christ as faith.

If we have this, then we will enjoy His Person (with all His attributes + accomplishments) *actively* and spontaneously, Christ is lived out of you in your living (work). The "flavor" is different! In that, one can sense the divine or touch God when contacting that person. Otherwise, we will just see his or her ethics ...

This post has been edited by pehkay: Sep 12 2019, 03:45 PM

I'm really referring to the bold. It is really a prevalent problem in the Christendom.

For me personally, works + Faith has a lot to do with believing in God's promises, in God's ability to answer prayers, it's no point to just believe but act the opposite by complaining and acting out contradictory to what we have prayed. There are Christians today, no longer believing in God's divine miracle. And also in the aspect of loving others in action and not just mere words.

That is the key aspect of Works + Faith in the book of James if we look at all the examples given.

As for Salvation, what the Bible says, it is the gift of God and not of ourselves, we believe in Christ, in his finished work, we are saved by the confession of our mouth. And the prove of our walk really depends on what we believe in. The Holy Spirit will only act according to God's word. If we don't believe that Christ alone is the assurance of our Salvation, we will try to incorporate the works which is what the Bible is against. The works of the flesh as you called it. We nullify the meaning of grace.

Because when we believe right, on Salvation as the gift aspect being a grace gift, when we understand apart from Christ, we can do nothing and learn to live in the New Covenant of Righteousness by Faith, working of God's Holy Spirit comes in a promised. it is something effortless (meaning NONE of our deeds or performance), This fruits or works as what prophetjul is implying comes without us being conscious about it.

Matthew 25:37-39 (NIV) - 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick or in prison and visit You?’

When we keep harping on this works, it's not going to work. I think we need to focus more on Christ being the vine and none of ourselves.

Are you saved if you only believe but don't live according to your faith? That's where even Protestants disagree among themselves.

"Protestants (or more specifically, the Reformed churches) believe that presbuteros, episkopos, shepherd(pastor from latin pasteur) are all interchangable." presbyteros and episkopos are definitely different. That's not even in accord with what the older Christian churches (older than Protestantism) believes in (e.g. the Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox).

Your last question is a theoretical one but Catholics will see as never happening in their lifetime unless it is the end of the world and Christ returns .

Actually I am not harping on works. Feels like works to you is a dirty word. The problem is that you were taught Faith vs Works thing.
That is a wrongful way to look at faith.

Faith or Aman in Hebrew depicts the need for action/works. Without which James calls it fake. He describes that even devils have faith. Strange?

No. Because the faith as understood by the Jews is Faith and works are binary not separated as depicted by Luther.
There is no Sola Fide in the Jewish perspective of Aman.

How can we be unconscious of faith works when we are taught to obey God?

prophetjul is closer to Catholic teaching on this compared to UW.

I am closer to Jewish understanding of Faith/Aman, not Roman Catholic teachings on works.

Well, as how the Bible has point it out, our focus is on primarily Christ being the Savior. If we can get in heaven, with mixing in our faith with our obedience, there is really no need for a Savior. Simply because the gauge now has me involved in it.

Too often we always look to ourselves, our shortcoming where we fall short or where we've fail and .......without realize God already knew all our disobedience as if catches God by surprise.

I'm not trying to say Don't obey. I'm trying to disassociate the confidence in what we do or lack of it in pleasing God.

if only you could understand where I'm coming from.

Edited(Waste of time talking to a heretic)

This post has been edited by TheRant: Sep 12 2019, 04:55 PM

Problem is, thats what the Bible does.

If you have a problem, it's not with me. It's with the Bible.

This applies to you by the way

Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Anyway. I never considered you anything so no point talking anymore.

We shall see later whether you are right or not on judgement day.

This post has been edited by TheRant: Sep 12 2019, 05:01 PM

The RCC does not teach that works itself saves.

This is where I think most people find it very hard to understand, even protestants.

In Reformed theology, we believe that regeneration precedes faith. That means that only the people that God had foreordained to salvation will come to salvific faith in Christ. (Jesus said in John, only those that are permitted by the Father can come to Him)

Faith itself is not generated from our own might, it is the gift of God (Eph 2).

When God gives salvation, it follows that He will also give sanctification.

When I say this to Arminians, I will always get objections and bible verses. So I think I will stop here for now

Well, if only you knew where the Jewish understanding of faith is coming from, and not what you were taught to match faith vs works.

you will have a hard time deciphering what James is trying to teach you.

i do not mean works itself either, but obedience to God's commands. Which RCC seem to be very lacking.

RCC's soteriology is a lot more complex.

Let me try to break it down.

1) A person is saved by grace through faith in Christ.

2) God infuses justification (by imparted grace) to that person (as opposed to protestant's imputed righteousness). That means that person actually has to contribute to his righteousness (maybe 50 from God and 50 from himself, etc., while we believe that we are 100% righteous by the merits of Christ.

In other words, justification and sanctification is two different things, whereas for a protestant, we believe when God justifies, He sanctifies too.

3) But that person, if he commits a mortal sin, can fall from salvific grace.

This is when confession, veneration, sacraments come in. From here, he has to earn his way back in good standing with God.

But by my judgement, at the very core, it is still mostly a works based salvation.

This post has been edited by thomasthai: Sep 12 2019, 07:29 PM

I'm not against works, by all mean exhibit your faith by your works.

I'm saying works doesn't save us and is not a criteria for Salvation as how the Bible has said it.

We are righteous by Faith, that is the new covenant.

Whether you do good works or lack of it, it is the Lord Jesus that saves you at the end of the day.

Because if you say otherwise then I'll asked you, have you been able to keep all the works as per expectation of God?

It's just a simple yes or no, You didn't really answer me.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Sep 12 2019, 08:03 PM

Faith vs works

Could it be possible that we have been looking at the Faith vs Works debate incorrectly?

Let's ask ourselves some questions

a) Are the works Paul is referring to the same works James is referring to?
b) Does Paul also encourage believers to do good works?
Context is everything. Agreed?

I actually copied all the scripture text here, it was very very long.
So I removed most of the text but please read the text in full in your own bibles to get the picture I am trying to present.

Bear with me and decide if this makes sense.

First up is James

What is the benefit, my fellow believers, if someone claims to have faith but has no [good] works [as evidence]? Can that [kind of] faith save him? [No, a mere claim of faith is not sufficient—genuine faith produces good works.] If a brother or sister is without [adequate] clothing and lacks [enough] food for each day, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace [with my blessing], [keep] warm and feed yourselves,” but he does not give them the necessities for the body, what good does that do? So too, faith, if it does not have works [to back it up], is by itself dead [inoperative and ineffective]. But someone may say, “You [claim to] have faith and I have [good] works; show me your [alleged] faith without the works [if you can], and I will show you my faith by my works [that is, by what I do].” You believe that God is one; you do well [to believe that]. The demons also believe [that], and shudder and bristle [in awe-filled terror—they have seen His wrath]! But are you willing to recognize, you foolish [spiritually shallow] person, that faith without [good] works is useless? Was our father Abraham not [shown to be] justified by works [of obedience which expressed his faith] when he offered Isaac his son on the altar [as a sacrifice to God]? You see that [his] faith was working together with his works, and as a result of the works, his faith was completed [reaching its maturity when he expressed his faith through obedience]. And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “A braham believed G od , and this [faith] was credited to him [by God] as righteousness and as conformity to H is will ,” and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man (believer) is justified by works and not by faith alone [that is, by acts of obedience a born-again believer reveals his faith]. In the same way, was Rahab the prostitute not justified by works too, when she received the [Hebrew] spies as guests and protected them, and sent them away [to escape] by a different route? For just as the [human] body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works [of obedience] is also dead.
JAMES 2:14‭-‬26 AMP

Here James is referring to caring for each other's needs.

Now remember James was scolding the church earlier about partiality, and he continues on to take issue with believers who are neglecting to help out fellow believers who are less fortunate.

James stressed that without good works these believers' faith is as good as dead.

James went as far as to point out that even demons believe. ouch.



On to Paul

In Romans Paul points out that obedience to the moasic law was not a requirement for salvation but that it is a free gift from God to those who believe in Jesus Christ.

Can we say that this the Works Paul is referring to?

Then Paul warns in chapter 6 that Grace is not a free pass to continue in sin!
BUT that now we are to offer ourselves as instruments of righteousness.

Please read Romans chapter 2-8 in full.

On to Galatians.
Paul is hopping mad because a bunch of "teachers" are confusing the Galatians teaching them that they have to obey the mosaic law as a condition for salvation.

Can we agree that this is the Works Paul is referring to?

O you foolish and thoughtless and superficial Galatians, who has bewitched you [that you would act like this], to whom—right before your very eyes—Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified [in the gospel message]? This is all I want to ask of you: did you receive the [Holy] Spirit as the result of obeying [the requirements of] the Law, or was it the result of hearing [the message of salvation and] with faith [believing it]? Are you so foolish and senseless? Having begun [your new life by faith] with the Spirit, are you now being perfected and reaching spiritual maturity by the flesh [that is, by your own works and efforts to keep the Law]?

Galatians 3:1-3



Next up. Ephesians.
Please read chapter 2

Very clear here that the Works Paul is referring to is the requirements of the law.
BUT! Paul also refers to Good Works prepared by God for us to do.

Could this be the same type of works James is referring to?


Then in Colossians Paul again warns of the Judaiziers who wants to impose the law on them Paul repeats. Reject those "works" of the law, put to death the flesh but put on the new spiritual self for the PURPOSES of God.

Please read whole book of Colossians


And finally, in Philippians Paul encourages us to live our lives in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ.

Finally, my fellow believers, continue to rejoice and delight in the Lord . To write the same things again is no trouble for me, and it is a safeguard for you. Look out for the dogs [the Judaizers, the legalists], look out for the troublemakers, look out for the false circumcision [those who claim circumcision is necessary for salvation]; for we [who are born-again have been reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, set apart for His purpose and] are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory and take pride and exult in Christ Jesus and place no confidence [in what we have or who we are] in the flesh— though I myself might have [some grounds for] confidence in the flesh [if I were pursuing salvation by works].
PHILIPPIANS 3:1‭-‬4 AMP

What can we see from this?

Are not the Works referred to by James different from the Works referred to by Paul?

Yet, is there not a different class of works that Paul advocates, one that springs from a living faith in Christ Jesus?

To me, there is no conflict between James and Paul.
Both advocate a class of works that springs forth from a genuine faith in Christ.
There is only misunderstanding on the type of Works each of them refers to.

In conclusion, I think justification by faith stands, but if good works are not produced, then that faith must be reexamined if it is genuine.

I don't know if this is off topic, but does anyone knows of how to be born again ? Seems like that is the only way to Salvation.