I think both Desmond and UW are quite clear that Salvation comes by Faith alone.

I am just not sure why they are arguing over works.
Each seem to be deliberately misunderstanding the other.

To me, works are a manifestation that our faith is true. We can't help but do good because it is the Holy Spirit at work within us.

From the scripture it is clear to me that the process goes like this.

Hear the Word ROM 10:14
Have faith in the Word ROM 10:17
Saved by that grace that comes through faith. EPH 2:8-9
Transformed by the Holy Spirit through the Word of God 2 Cor 3:18
Bear fruit of the Spirit. (Read your Bible pray every day)
Do works as guided by the Holy Spirit. (ACTS 16:6-10 example of what not to do)
Get rewarded for your works done under guidance of Holy Spirit.(1 Cor 3:12-15)

I think the author is just being provocative by using the phrase "God CAN'T live up to our expectations "
and then go on to expound that everything that God does goes way beyond our expectations.

Just goes to show we have to read the whole article.

I fully agree with Thomas on this.

Our finite minds cannot comprehend the true nature of the infinite God.

We can't even fully explain what we can physically see and handle, how much more what we can't see or handle.

Take light for example.

What is it really?

Energy? Wave? Particle?
How can it be all three?

Do we see light or do we see the reflection of light?

How can light travel seemingly forever?


There are so many answers out in the net but none are 100% conclusive.

So I take the position of Hebrews 11:6

6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

NKJV

This is why I marvel at atheists who insist that because there is inconclusive evidence that God exists and therefore they don't believe.

The sad part is that they believe in other stuff science tell them even when there is inconclusive evidence of it being true, evolution being foremost.

Evolution cannot even provide an answer to the age old question of which came first, the chicken or the egg?
But I digress.

What kind of job do you do?

We stand together with you in prayer bro.

Perhaps you may consider these few options

Pray and ask God for wisdom.

Take a step back and look at your work, your performance, your boss from an independent perspective.

Ask questions.

Is my boss really angry at me or my performance.

If at me, did I give him cause to do so?

If at my performance, what can I improve on?

If my boss is angry at me personally, and I gave him cause yo do so, how do I apologise? Would a face to face meeting with the boss do? Would a written apology be better?

If my boss is angry at both me and my performance, can I talk to him and ask his advice on how I can improve ?

Did my mistakes cause difficulties to my boss?

If yes, apologise.


I recall when I was cold storaged for mistakes I made at work.

I stayed on until I had better opportunity before leaving because of family needs. I suffered for two years but I endured it because I recognized I was at fault.

Your boss is owner of company or employee also?

Normally a warning letter is issued after several verbal warnings.

Since I don't know what is the real situation, I will not comment further on that.

If I were you, I will put aside the fear of being kicked out and focus on how to improve my work rate and quality.

Make it difficult for your boss to find fault with you by being hardworking and efficient.

Normally anger will subside over time, especially if it can be seen that effort is being made to improve.

Then keep you the effort and let God deal with your boss.

Show cause letter?

Its more serious than warning letter.

Ask God for wisdom how to structure your reply.

True faith will produce good work, simoly by abiding in the true Vine, we cannot help but produce good fruit.

Having said that, good works must be both inspired and empowered by the Holy Spirit or it may be worthless.
Every work will be tested by fire and I believe the motivation behind the work will determine its value in the eyes of God which is why Paul says :

Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
1 Corinthians 3:12‭-‬15 ESV

So in the end, what UV has been sharing on is also correct. Salvation is by Faith through Grace

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Ephesians 2:8‭-‬9 ESV

Work is a result of Faith.

I would like to add a note at the end here.
There are many things we do not fully understand about the Faith, Grace and works and how it all gels together for the believer.

And often times the enemy uses this to divide believers and cause disputes.

Perhaps we should realize that when the devil cannot hold us back in doing good, he will push us forward to the extreme and make us zealots. Both are bad for us.

What is truly important is that we as Christians must develop and maintain our personal relationship with God and hear from the holy Spirit on a Daily basis for what is relevant for us NOW because God has different different things for each of us to do at different times.


A living relationship with Christ.
A living relationship with Christ.
That's what it means
That's what it means to be a Christian.

Its not by name, its not by fame
Its not by the works we do.
To seek His face
To know His grace
That's what He wants for you.

A living relationship with Christ.
A living relationship with Christ.
That's what it means
That's what it means to be a Christian.

I am happy for you.

But be careful when saying the Bible is NOT the word of God.

For all intents and purposes it is Logos and a true guide for Christians when we are unable to hear Rhema for whatever reasons.

We all go through seasons and it is part and parcel of growing.

Brothers and sisters,

May I suggest we all take a step back and read what we have posted these last few pages.

Ask ourselves these questions.

1. In what way have our words glorified God?

2. Do the subject matters we have been discussing truly affect a person's salvation ?

3. Are we making ourselves fools in the eyes of others?

It is not wrong to have differing view points and opinions. But it is wrong to insult one another over these minor differences, especially when you are aware that some of those raising the issues are not even believers in the first place.

so, lets be calm

1 Corinthians 13

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.

4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.

9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Amen Brother.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4plUVT3UJUo

This post has been edited by yaokb: Sep 10 2019, 11:15 PM

double post

This post has been edited by yaokb: Sep 10 2019, 11:14 PM

Matthew 7:17-20 New Living Translation (NLT)

17 A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit. A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit. So every tree that does not produce good fruit is chopped down and thrown into the fire. Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions.


Galatians 5

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.





James 1

19 My dear brothers and sisters, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, because human anger does not produce the righteousness that God desires. Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.

22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.

26 Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless. Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

It is ok to have our own opinions.

I had the privilege of meeting Brian Simmons, the translator of the Passion Bible.

At that time, he had just published his first passion book, the Song of Songs (Solomon).

He strongly believes his translation bring a fresh take on the scripture through the eyes of a lover.

My take on versions like NLT, the Passion translation and the Message is that they are no different from the efforts taken by many to translate the bible into various languages like Thai, Cambodian, Burmese etc etc.

There are literally thousands of such translations.

While they are no works of scholarship, they all do touch specific target groups. So do the versions like NLT, Message and Passion.

And the one thing they have in common is that they are works of love.

In my eyes, they each are all a tiny part of the wonderful mosaic of God's plan to reach as many people as possible with His wonderful Word.


As Paul said in 2 Corinthians 3

Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?

2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:

3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:

5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Can we really deny that the Holy Spirit has used these translations to touch and change lives?

double post again

This post has been edited by yaokb: Sep 11 2019, 10:40 PM

Luke 18

9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

KJV

Faith vs works

Could it be possible that we have been looking at the Faith vs Works debate incorrectly?

Let's ask ourselves some questions

a) Are the works Paul is referring to the same works James is referring to?
b) Does Paul also encourage believers to do good works?
Context is everything. Agreed?

I actually copied all the scripture text here, it was very very long.
So I removed most of the text but please read the text in full in your own bibles to get the picture I am trying to present.

Bear with me and decide if this makes sense.

First up is James

What is the benefit, my fellow believers, if someone claims to have faith but has no [good] works [as evidence]? Can that [kind of] faith save him? [No, a mere claim of faith is not sufficient—genuine faith produces good works.] If a brother or sister is without [adequate] clothing and lacks [enough] food for each day, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace [with my blessing], [keep] warm and feed yourselves,” but he does not give them the necessities for the body, what good does that do? So too, faith, if it does not have works [to back it up], is by itself dead [inoperative and ineffective]. But someone may say, “You [claim to] have faith and I have [good] works; show me your [alleged] faith without the works [if you can], and I will show you my faith by my works [that is, by what I do].” You believe that God is one; you do well [to believe that]. The demons also believe [that], and shudder and bristle [in awe-filled terror—they have seen His wrath]! But are you willing to recognize, you foolish [spiritually shallow] person, that faith without [good] works is useless? Was our father Abraham not [shown to be] justified by works [of obedience which expressed his faith] when he offered Isaac his son on the altar [as a sacrifice to God]? You see that [his] faith was working together with his works, and as a result of the works, his faith was completed [reaching its maturity when he expressed his faith through obedience]. And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “A braham believed G od , and this [faith] was credited to him [by God] as righteousness and as conformity to H is will ,” and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man (believer) is justified by works and not by faith alone [that is, by acts of obedience a born-again believer reveals his faith]. In the same way, was Rahab the prostitute not justified by works too, when she received the [Hebrew] spies as guests and protected them, and sent them away [to escape] by a different route? For just as the [human] body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works [of obedience] is also dead.
JAMES 2:14‭-‬26 AMP

Here James is referring to caring for each other's needs.

Now remember James was scolding the church earlier about partiality, and he continues on to take issue with believers who are neglecting to help out fellow believers who are less fortunate.

James stressed that without good works these believers' faith is as good as dead.

James went as far as to point out that even demons believe. ouch.



On to Paul

In Romans Paul points out that obedience to the moasic law was not a requirement for salvation but that it is a free gift from God to those who believe in Jesus Christ.

Can we say that this the Works Paul is referring to?

Then Paul warns in chapter 6 that Grace is not a free pass to continue in sin!
BUT that now we are to offer ourselves as instruments of righteousness.

Please read Romans chapter 2-8 in full.

On to Galatians.
Paul is hopping mad because a bunch of "teachers" are confusing the Galatians teaching them that they have to obey the mosaic law as a condition for salvation.

Can we agree that this is the Works Paul is referring to?

O you foolish and thoughtless and superficial Galatians, who has bewitched you [that you would act like this], to whom—right before your very eyes—Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified [in the gospel message]? This is all I want to ask of you: did you receive the [Holy] Spirit as the result of obeying [the requirements of] the Law, or was it the result of hearing [the message of salvation and] with faith [believing it]? Are you so foolish and senseless? Having begun [your new life by faith] with the Spirit, are you now being perfected and reaching spiritual maturity by the flesh [that is, by your own works and efforts to keep the Law]?

Galatians 3:1-3



Next up. Ephesians.
Please read chapter 2

Very clear here that the Works Paul is referring to is the requirements of the law.
BUT! Paul also refers to Good Works prepared by God for us to do.

Could this be the same type of works James is referring to?


Then in Colossians Paul again warns of the Judaiziers who wants to impose the law on them Paul repeats. Reject those "works" of the law, put to death the flesh but put on the new spiritual self for the PURPOSES of God.

Please read whole book of Colossians


And finally, in Philippians Paul encourages us to live our lives in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ.

Finally, my fellow believers, continue to rejoice and delight in the Lord . To write the same things again is no trouble for me, and it is a safeguard for you. Look out for the dogs [the Judaizers, the legalists], look out for the troublemakers, look out for the false circumcision [those who claim circumcision is necessary for salvation]; for we [who are born-again have been reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, set apart for His purpose and] are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory and take pride and exult in Christ Jesus and place no confidence [in what we have or who we are] in the flesh— though I myself might have [some grounds for] confidence in the flesh [if I were pursuing salvation by works].
PHILIPPIANS 3:1‭-‬4 AMP

What can we see from this?

Are not the Works referred to by James different from the Works referred to by Paul?

Yet, is there not a different class of works that Paul advocates, one that springs from a living faith in Christ Jesus?

To me, there is no conflict between James and Paul.
Both advocate a class of works that springs forth from a genuine faith in Christ.
There is only misunderstanding on the type of Works each of them refers to.

In conclusion, I think justification by faith stands, but if good works are not produced, then that faith must be reexamined if it is genuine.

What does the scripture say?

John 3 King James Version (KJV)
3 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.



2 Corinthians 5

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


It is clear from the above verses that Jesus Himself declared the we must be born again in the Spirit.
And when we are born again in the Spirit, Paul declares we are a new creation.

But the question remains.

How is one born again?

I think Paul made it plain in Acts 16

Acts 16:25-40 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Philippian Jailer Saved
25 But at midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them. 26 Suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken; and immediately all the doors were opened and everyone’s chains were loosed. 27 And the keeper of the prison, awaking from sleep and seeing the prison doors open, supposing the prisoners had fled, drew his sword and was about to kill himself. 28 But Paul called with a loud voice, saying, “Do yourself no harm, for we are all here.”

29 Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”