Let me ask you, did you cause your own physical birth?

What does the scripture say?

John 3 King James Version (KJV)
3 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.



2 Corinthians 5

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


It is clear from the above verses that Jesus Himself declared the we must be born again in the Spirit.
And when we are born again in the Spirit, Paul declares we are a new creation.

But the question remains.

How is one born again?

I think Paul made it plain in Acts 16

Acts 16:25-40 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Philippian Jailer Saved
25 But at midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them. 26 Suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken; and immediately all the doors were opened and everyone’s chains were loosed. 27 And the keeper of the prison, awaking from sleep and seeing the prison doors open, supposing the prisoners had fled, drew his sword and was about to kill himself. 28 But Paul called with a loud voice, saying, “Do yourself no harm, for we are all here.”

29 Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Bro, indeed, we should focus on Christ being the vine.

Let's start with obedience. True obedience is the Person of Christ. When we say, a person touches God. Or come in contact with God, there is element of God that is infused into us. We all might have this experience, when he or she touches God in a certain matter, there is a sense, wow, we have met God, subdued by Him and we obey Him. It could be "small voice" or a Person, a sense that we should apologize to our wife. On the one hand, we apologized spontaneously (our work) yet it is the Christ as the Person living out of us in union with us through our faith. We cannot manufactor this by obeying the commandments in the Bible. It comes from faith of Christ infused into us.

To believe in God's promise is not merely means you and God are separate entities. Rather, as you walk, (work), (abide in Christ), cooperate with the Spirit, touching God; the spiritual reality of God's promise is infused into you in the experience of the uniting faith. Don't think that promises of God is something outside given to you by God. He gave only Himself as everything into us.

When we experience His promise or Christ finished work etc. there is an union between you and God, where His element is dispensed into you. Then, 1 John fulfils this: if we abide in Him and HE ABIDES IN YOU (the living of Triune God / live Christ). This is the true work of faith.

Another example, is love. Paul says in Romans 5:5, “The love of God (God is love) has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.” From the day we believed in the Lord Jesus, the love of God has been poured out in our hearts. This is not merely a matter of feeling. On the contrary, something substantial, something essential, has been poured out into our hearts. This means that, as believers, deep in our hearts we have something of the divine essence, and this is God the Father as love. This is why Paul can love all men. He enjoyed the divine Love which is God Himself infused into him. Paul's loving is the Triune God loving through him by constitution.

But we cannot be passive. We have to cooperate with the Lord. Initially, someone has to work by faith (preach the Word). His faith (or Christ) is infused into you. Then you (work) believe. On the one hand, you freely believe (work) yet it is Christ as faith by which you believe (faith and grace). We definitely need to love God with our whole being (work) yet not with our own love ( faith). It is almost you don't know here God starts and we end in this union.

So, we have to ACTIVELY "abide in Christ", we walk, we (work), we work our salvation by enjoying Christ, then spontaneously, we lived not ourself but live out Christ (and He abides in you) because He is constituted into us.

Hope that helps in what I trying to convey in the union of Christ. It is only in this, that faith and work become the "two wings". They do not contradict but an expression of the divine and human.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Sep 12 2019, 08:55 PM

Well God told His apostles, "he who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me". Thus apostolic succession is a very important, something lacking in Protestantism.

You are correct for the first 2 parts. However you and other Calvinists forget are that humans are not robots. We have something called free will. We have to cooperate with the graces necessary for salvation which God will certainly give to those who ask Him. A mortal sin is a deliberate rejection of God. What did the scriptures say when one has fallen from grace? See the life of King David, the parable of the pharisee and the publican and you will get your answer.

16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

Luke 10: 16-17

out of context.

Jesus was not only speaking to his 12 disciples but to the 70 He sent out.

This is always the objection for Calvinism, we are not robots and we have free will.

Calvin in fact, did not deny free will. In his work the institutes of the christian life he said that.

The problem is this, left to ourselves and our own free will, we are all headed to hell.

Without the intervention and regeneration by God, we will never come to faith in the Lord.



We were all dead in sin, and it is God who made us alive (regeneration). Can a dead man raise himself? No!

The total depravity of men is so clear here I don't understand how people can understand it any other way. Paul said the same thing twice here, in case anybody missed it.

This post has been edited by thomasthai: Sep 12 2019, 09:44 PM

That's why only the graces given by God can nudge that person back to life. This could be repeated admonitions and good advice from our pastors, our parents, etc, but if we are too proud to even accept those graces, to confess our fault, and receive the sacraments which are fountains of grace from Christ Himself, then we have no one to blame but ourselves if we are damned, not because God predestined us to be damned. Even Judas could be saved if he like Peter, repented and seeked His forgiveness instead of adding on to his sins by taking his ow life.

It doesn't matter, the 70 were bishops or deacons of the early Church anyway. He told that to the 70 to prepare the cities He would visit. In other parts of Scripture, the 12 apostles were Christ's closest collaborators and it was Peter who was the head the apostles.

To make sure that the apostles’ teachings would be passed down after the deaths of the apostles, Paul told Timothy, “[W]hat you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also” (2 Tim. 2:2). In this passage he refers to the first three generations of apostolic succession—his own generation, Timothy’s generation, and the generation Timothy will teach.

We know that Christ established His Church and called the Apostles, devoting three years to their training. These Apostles He appointed as constitutional officials in His Church, giving them the threefold power to teach, rule and sanctify others in His name. But it is to be noted that He commissioned them, as the appointed officials of His Church, to "teach all nations" and promised to be with them "all days till the end of the world." Now it is clear that the Apostles themselves could not "teach all nations;" nor could they personally live "all days till the end of the world." Yet the Church had to continue, and with the constitution Christ had given it. It follows that the power and the authority of the Apostles must have been transmitted to their official successors. For evidence that this did happen we can scarcely look to the New Testament itself, which was written whilst the Apostles were still alive; but documents from the earliest days of the Church record the fact. Thus St. Clement of Rome, writing before the end of the 1st century, tells us that the Apostles appointed others to succeed them St. Clement knew the Apostles personally, and is himself mentioned by name in the New Testament, Philip, IV, 3. In the 2nd century St Irenaeus in his controversy with the Gnostics who claimed to possess secret doctrines derived from the Apostles, pointed out the publicly known succession of the Bishops in the Church from the Apostles, enumerating particularly the Bishops of Rome as successors of St. Peter, and declaring that no authority could belong to the teachings of those not in union with these official successors of the Apostles.

It seems to be a far reach by any measure to label the 70 as anything other than disciples. Deacons were named so only in the book of Acts and bishops did not appear until churches were established by Paul all over the gentile world. OK i admit it may be semantics, but to base a teaching on a scripture taken out of context, matters, doesn't it?

And as for Clements, even Catholic scholars themselves doubt that the Clements mentioned in Philippians 4:3 is the St Clements you refer to.
source : http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04012c.htm

I am not Catholic but it does seem to me that a lot of the RCC teachings are based on traditions and customs rather than scripture.

Doesn't that make you uncomfortable?

There you go again.

Faith vs works. You have been misguided by modern teachings on faith. Go and learn the Hebrew understanding of faith or AMAN.
Take it from there.

Then you will be able to understand what James was saying and indeed what Paul meant by faith.


Faith is never alone. Its a binary.

Its very simple yet profound.

Faith and works is a binary in Hebrew perspective.

Even devils have faith.
Living Faith demands works.
Dead faith demands nothing.

Again, you are blindsided by Jesus talking to the apostles. It does not stop there. It is the same for ALL believers.
Apostolic succession is a man made structure to control the laity and make fools out of the sheeple.
Similar to the charismatic phrase of 'touch not God's anointed' nonsense.

The robed priests reminds me pf this:

Sorry. Missed this.

Thanks Bro for the synopsis of the RCC's approach to soteriology.

It is complex because they make it so with lots of man made rituals, very much like the Pharisees and the teachers of the law in Jesus' day.

Indeed.

RCCs are blindsided by their submission to the Pope and their robed priests in their flowing garments and call then successors.
Rather repugnant to God.

It's just a simple question, prophetjul, yes or no?

Are you able to obey God all the time? Yes or no?

I asked you 1st.

For me I'll say No. your turn.

Of course not.

However, it does not negate the demand of true faith.
True faith demands works. Without which faith is dead. Like the faith of devils.

So my next question is, since you agree your works are not perfect, in a way not consistently perfect, so what merits gets you to heaven based on what Bible says?

Your Faith and by the Grace of God that makes you righteous or your Faith plus imperfect works that makes you righteous?