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 LYN Christian Fellowship V14 (Group)

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prophetjul
post Sep 13 2019, 09:29 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Sep 13 2019, 09:20 AM)
So my next question is, since you agree your works are not perfect, in a way not consistently perfect, so what merits gets you to heaven based on what Bible says?

Your Faith and by the Grace of God that makes you righteous or your Faith plus imperfect works that makes you righteous?
*
You see you are only interested in heaven, in a distance.
The Jew is interested in the kingdom now. Heaven is a consequence.
Whereas serving God on earth is their priority.

Again I repeat James to your question

QUOTE
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also
.

So in essence,

True living faith demands works
Dead faith demands nothing

You seem just to think about heaven. Its only a consequence of our life in Christ. The kingdom is now, here on earth.
unknown warrior
post Sep 13 2019, 09:49 AM

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QUOTE(prophetjul @ Sep 13 2019, 09:29 AM)
You see you are only interested in heaven, in a distance.
The Jew is interested in the kingdom now. Heaven is a consequence.
Whereas serving God on earth is their priority.

Again I repeat James to your question

.

So in essence,

True living faith demands works
Dead faith demands nothing

You seem just to think about heaven. Its only a consequence of our life in Christ. The kingdom is now, here on earth.
*
Just answer my question bro.

What merits you to heaven then since you agree your works is not perfectly consistent?

If you want to quote James, then by the interpretation you insist, then do you think you will inherit Salvation?

Does your work count in the context of James?

2 questions now inter-related.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Sep 13 2019, 10:30 AM
desmond2020
post Sep 13 2019, 10:45 AM

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QUOTE(prophetjul @ Sep 13 2019, 09:29 AM)
You see you are only interested in heaven, in a distance.
The Jew is interested in the kingdom now. Heaven is a consequence.
Whereas serving God on earth is their priority.

Again I repeat James to your question

.

So in essence,

True living faith demands works
Dead faith demands nothing

You seem just to think about heaven. Its only a consequence of our life in Christ. The kingdom is now, here on earth.
*
Better question to ask is if the slavation an event or process?

This post has been edited by desmond2020: Sep 13 2019, 10:48 AM
yeeck
post Sep 13 2019, 11:09 AM

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QUOTE(yaokb @ Sep 12 2019, 11:01 PM)
It seems to be a far reach by any measure to label the 70 as anything other than disciples. Deacons were named so only in the book of Acts and bishops did not appear until churches were established by Paul all over the gentile world. OK i admit it may be  semantics, but to base a teaching on a scripture taken out of context, matters, doesn't it?

And as for Clements, even Catholic scholars themselves doubt that the Clements mentioned in Philippians 4:3 is the St Clements you refer to.
source : http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04012c.htm

I am not Catholic but it does seem to me that a lot of the RCC teachings are based on traditions and customs rather than scripture.

Doesn't that make you uncomfortable?
*
Absolutely not, Tradition came first before the NT was written down. Tradition and the beliefs of the early Christians interprets Scripture, not the new interpretations by Protestants that came more than 1500 years later. On what basis do you accept Scripture alone? Does scripture interprets itself? If yes, how does that explain the myriad interpretations causing the sprouting of sects like mushrooms as time goes by?

This post has been edited by yeeck: Sep 13 2019, 11:10 AM
SUSTheRant
post Sep 13 2019, 11:20 AM

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QUOTE(thomasthai @ Sep 12 2019, 09:42 PM)
This is always the objection for Calvinism, we are not robots and we have free will.

Calvin in fact, did not deny free will. In his work the institutes of the christian life he said that.

The problem is this, left to ourselves and our own free will, we are all headed to hell.

Without the intervention and regeneration by God, we will never come to faith in the Lord.
We were all dead in sin, and it is God who made us alive (regeneration). Can a dead man raise himself? No!

The total depravity of men is so clear here I don't understand how people can understand it any other way. Paul said the same thing twice here, in case anybody missed it.
*
You are correct. Even KJV people get confused about this area. I guess everyone sins in a way.

The thing is, I really do not know how you define regeneration but as for me, salvation happen at an instant.

John 3:7-8
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

So the other argument is that why would God allow people into the world just so that they can go to hell.

Well, the thing is, God did provide a way for them. But then due to their deprave state, they are not able to accept that way. It is a demonstration actually that without God's help, there can be no hope.
prophetjul
post Sep 13 2019, 11:32 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Sep 13 2019, 09:49 AM)
Just answer my question bro.

What merits you to heaven then since you agree your works is not perfectly consistent?

If you want to quote James, then by the interpretation you insist, then do you think you will inherit Salvation?

Does your work count in the context of James?

2 questions now inter-related.
*
Think I already answered in that. We are redeemed people of Messiah Jesus.

We are discussing faith here and your understanding of faith versus the Jewish understanding as depicted in James and other parts of scriptures.
Right now you have a difficulty in seeing the binary of faith and works. You are segregating them and James is telling you otherwise.

Of course, I will see heaven in the future.

And yes, my works and action counts in the context of the perfection of faith.
unknown warrior
post Sep 13 2019, 11:33 AM

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QUOTE(prophetjul @ Sep 13 2019, 11:32 AM)
Think I already answered in that. We are redeemed people of Messiah Jesus.

We are discussing faith here and your understanding of faith versus the Jewish understanding as depicted in James and other parts of scriptures.
Right now you have a difficulty in seeing the binary of faith and works. You are segregating them and James is telling you otherwise.

Of course, I will see heaven in the future. 

And yes, my works and action counts in the context of the perfection of faith.
*
I'm talking about Salvation and you've just admitted, your works are imperfect, you fall at times.



This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Sep 13 2019, 11:34 AM
prophetjul
post Sep 13 2019, 11:34 AM

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QUOTE(desmond2020 @ Sep 13 2019, 10:45 AM)
Better question to ask is if the slavation an event or process?
*
Right ho!

Therefore Paul says, and the dirty word

QUOTE
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

prophetjul
post Sep 13 2019, 11:35 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Sep 13 2019, 11:33 AM)
I'm talking about Salvation and you've just admitted, your works are imperfect, you fall at times.
*
Yes. SO?

And yet James says of Abraham

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

This post has been edited by prophetjul: Sep 13 2019, 11:36 AM
prophetjul
post Sep 13 2019, 11:38 AM

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QUOTE(yeeck @ Sep 13 2019, 11:09 AM)
Absolutely not, Tradition came first before the NT was written down. Tradition and the beliefs of the early Christians interprets Scripture, not the new interpretations by Protestants that came more than 1500 years later. On what basis do you accept Scripture alone? Does scripture interprets itself? If yes, how does that explain the myriad interpretations causing the sprouting of sects like mushrooms as time goes by?
*
Does scripture interpret scripture? YES
Jesus always did that in the Gospels.

The tradition that you refer to, is Jewish traditions, not Roman. RCC is based on pagan Roman traditions.

unknown warrior
post Sep 13 2019, 11:42 AM

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QUOTE(prophetjul @ Sep 13 2019, 11:35 AM)
Yes. SO?

And yet James says of Abraham

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
*
So you're saying despite of your imperfect works, you will still go to Heaven? Why?
prophetjul
post Sep 13 2019, 11:44 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Sep 13 2019, 11:42 AM)
So you're saying despite of your imperfect works, you will still go to Heaven? Why?
*
Because of Jesus.

But FAITH alone is no perfection of faith. Heaven is a consequence.
unknown warrior
post Sep 13 2019, 11:47 AM

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QUOTE(prophetjul @ Sep 13 2019, 11:44 AM)
Because of Jesus.

But FAITH alone is no perfection of faith. Heaven is a consequence.
*
How can it just be Jesus? You've said your work matters. How do you account on your falling short moments?
prophetjul
post Sep 13 2019, 11:49 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Sep 13 2019, 11:47 AM)
How can it just be Jesus? You've said your work matters. How do you account on your falling short moments?
*
Why not?

Do you have faith in Jesus?
unknown warrior
post Sep 13 2019, 11:50 AM

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QUOTE(prophetjul @ Sep 13 2019, 11:49 AM)
Why not?

Do you have faith in Jesus?
*
so are you saying, Jesus is the key reason?
prophetjul
post Sep 13 2019, 11:53 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Sep 13 2019, 11:50 AM)
so are you saying, Jesus is the key reason?
*
Of course. The scriptures is about Messiah Jesus.

Yet not all are saved. Devils believe and are not saved. Hmmmmm
unknown warrior
post Sep 13 2019, 11:54 AM

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QUOTE(prophetjul @ Sep 13 2019, 11:53 AM)
Of course. The scriptures is about Messiah Jesus.

Yet not all are saved. Devils believe and are not saved. Hmmmmm
*
I rest my case then.
prophetjul
post Sep 13 2019, 11:58 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Sep 13 2019, 11:54 AM)
I rest my case then.
*
Rest what case?

What's your idea of faith? Do you have living faith?

Without faith, it is impossible to please God

This post has been edited by prophetjul: Sep 13 2019, 12:03 PM
prophetjul
post Sep 13 2019, 12:08 PM

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QUOTE
11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.

21 By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.

22 By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.

23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.

24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.

31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.


Looks like they ALL did some workings!

Thus

QUOTE
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

desmond2020
post Sep 13 2019, 01:07 PM

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QUOTE(prophetjul @ Sep 13 2019, 11:34 AM)
Right ho! 

Therefore Paul says, and the dirty word
*
And also

As he said these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, "Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!" But he said, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!"
Luke 11:27‭-‬28 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/luk.11.27-28.ESV

if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.
2 Chronicles 7:14 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/2ch.7.14.ESV


Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.
1 John 5:1‭-‬3 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/1jn.5.1-3.ESV


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