can't say like this, if you know that many team will probably choose scourge for wcg rule, then you should train harder on your sentinel, even if you meet this kind of thing, you should have not much worry, people like to blame is Lose to the Coin Toss, not to the team, is they lack of training and so on.... i still remember at Bz tourney that time, who picked sentinel will probably win the game, got few team win the toss coin but they choose scourge, even they lose the game, but i still respect on them becoz they have confident on them....

But, what to do, if you do -ap then ppl will blame you ruin the purpose of DotA game, coz it must be senti vs scourge.... but if you do this, ppl will say unfair la,i lose to the coin toss, sometimes i quit pity organiser, but what to do, you must make them follow your rules, not them control you to follow their rules, if they don't like the rules, then don't join... Mostly ppl join the tourney is becoz of the prize money not the rules.

Example: you can see those CC organize the preliminaries round one give 1st prize as rm1000 or rm1500, will have more then 15 team join, and those CC that only provide Free Reg's fee and only with WCG merchandise, always lack off team... This already prove alot Team see the prize first, complaining unfair about they lose to the coin toss is just a reason....

just my 2 cent, you can ignore it

This post has been edited by winternight: Jul 26 2006, 11:17 AM

the reason y we remove backdoor restriction:
1) some loser team always use this rules to penalise winning team, which i personally feel "unfair", eg, if a bunch of hero cross tower n kill hero, after the task finished, they use "a" command back to retreat, if tower shoot the hero, hero will hit back tower automatically. Is is consider backdoor? i think if follow "rules", this is called backdoor.

2) their are some major tournament have remove backdoor restriction, like dotasg, MYM, if not mistaken, CAPL also remove this d.

3) reduce the workload of the marshall tremendoulsy

4) player will feel free to kill, if they can

5) i think a lot of player can counter backdoor easily, they can tp

6) backdoor also 1 of the strategy

7) ver 6 can skip tower to attack, team cannot "backdoor" to the base, they need to follow sequence also, they have no choice

just my 2 cent, ^^
cheers

This post has been edited by Ian_Mok: Jul 26 2006, 05:09 PM

Ian, i want to ask you... see whether u accept or not...

About Warding, you have make it no ward restriction, it probably will cut off chen ability, What i want to say is, if you make those 6 place( sentinel 3 spot and scourge 3 spot, chen probably will get his "friend" neutral creep at this place) as a Restriction Ward place, other than that area is NO restriction warding Area...

quite true oso bah... but i dun think backdoor can be counter by tp scroll as i mentioned when 5 hero attack your tower how u can tp to tht tower... -.- but team should counter backdoor by wards gua... but then if WCG rule (tower count) + can backdoor i think the game will be not fun edi... if SMM point system stil acceptable

I shall leap from flaming and criticizing others ideas and comments. I am quite sure some of you really came up with some good points. But eventually these ideas would need approval and of course decisions can only be made by organizers. Their discretion is the most critical part of this debate. Lets keep the positive ideas in.

I'll just share some thoughts about three things mentioned.



I'll just share some thoughts about three things mentioned.

For the backdoor issue, without any creeps heroes can start hitting the tower. I shall elaborate on why the definition of backdoor should be this way.
1. Its already designed not to allow overlap attacks on buildings.
2. The fact that there is an item called the teleportation scroll.
3. Limited strategy can be made up due to the fact that you might need to push from TOP of Scrouge side to Sentinel side just to find 5 opponents already waiting you for like few minutes? And when that attack fails, you find yourself again with the miles away of pushing creeps job before you can decently touch that tower. (this allows a much more fast paced game and of course the players will need to give more attention on situation, decoy attacks and etc.)
4. Will eventually help the game end faster, and everybody walks happy not tired.

Second issue is the warding on neutral creeps spot. This issue is not that easy to deal with. I shall explain why so. It is not only a problem for the players but to the marshals too. After really putting some thought in this matter, in my opinion the marshals will have to do an outrageous work of watching every replay to check the wards placements, that is sick. Why not leave the 'ward war' to the players? Out ward your opponent and that's all there is to say. If you want neutral creeps to spawn, be more hardworking with your wards.
1. The real 1st point is the wards can be placed anywhere near the spawn area, it is allowed and will not be counted as breaking the rule. I know it still doesn't allow creeps to spawn but this is because sometimes the area where the ward was placed is the best strategic area to view the map.
2. This is also to stop DQ good teams who accidentally placed wards viewing the neutral creep spawn area. Life is much more easier this way for both players and the organizers. It is dumb, but easier.

Third issue doesn't really need to be debated, the answer is already in our heads.

Time should be 60 mins. Yeah synzo,CS method is not bad calculation, but -AP is essential skill.

Preliminary stage should be Sentinel vs. Scrouge format. Spare us the Sentinel owns at lane or the Scrouge owns at gather or pushes or hunting or hiding or whatever funny mindset you are programmed with. Its really how your team plays the game with what type of lineup you choose, hands down.

Advanced stage needs an -AP mode to decide the winner if it was to be a draw game. Personally I think -AP is the best. But for the sake of GOOD VS. EVIL...

There is one issue that I don't see will ever change. Bad decision making by marshals. This is related to the personality of the marshals and also their common sense ability. Rules are meant to be bend and not literally taken as of its meaning. What is the most important thing is on that very day, when it comes to the marshals hand to decide something, normally it turns out to be a very bad call.

Remember this, in a court, decisions can never be the same as the fact of the cases would be different. The situation of both parties might be different. Such deep considerations have to be architected before a decision is made. That is why we have qualified Judges in those seats. Marshals are like Judges, and there is no need for me to lay out the importance of the issue if this was not to be taken seriously.

This post has been edited by Tienhoven: Jul 26 2006, 11:36 AM

since IAN mentioned dotasg, MYM, CAPL. i think these tournament has no restiction on disturbing creeps spawn, i alwis see sg replay which hero lv1 go to btm creeps spawn plc to disturb the creeps spawn.

Actually i have something to say about Backdooring... NO BACKDOORING is a Dumb Rule LoL... in v6 towers must be destroyed following a sequence... I'm lazy to quote but someone said if 5 hero backdoor ur tower how to TP, and since everyone is talking about the abusing of wards to block creep spwans. Why not use wards to see people attempting to "backdoor" ur tower? In the end its all about tactics and observation... In my opinion, from my first dota tourney till now... No Backdooring is a Noob Rule... For once i would like to see people stop complaining and start thinking about what they can do to counter or prevent themselves from being backdoor... Creating rules to make the game more convenient for urself is BASICALLY ONE OF THE DUMBEST THINGS I THINK.
and Yes Yes... Feel Free to flame Me..
All i have to say is, Learn to Adapt to the rules and stop complaining...
Sorry ya if this post a bit lansi but its the truth...
I Appologize to all the people this offend but its a fact...
Pro Gaming is all about adapting to the changes made...

As for SMM n WCG my suggestion would be that you guys should try to organize a minor meet up with a few selected leaders/gamers from experienced dota teams to discuss on the rules... Maybe just 3-4 People... Icons in the Dota community which are known and respected... No Point placing it on the forum because it will turn out to be a never ending story with everyone posting their comments...

yup, basically all 3 rules that nles mentioned are already non existence in other countries highest level DOTA league like CAL & MYM.

these 3 rules not only waste precious time , it give a way for losing team to find an excuse to DQ winning teams, at the same time, also lower the standard of gameplay in a DOTA match, i totally support WooWoo point on these rules are there to make the game more easy and convenient for players of a lower standard and experience.

as for the debate on normal pick Vs AP, since the Asia Championship is hosted by Singapore, and they enjoyed AP so much, we just have to folow suits for this particular tourney.....
for those normal pick supporters, rest assured that if the worldwide WCG ever take on DOTA as official game, the game mode certainly will be normal pick and not the AP mode that singapore enjoyed so much, this is because the major western DOTA community in US & Europe all supports normal pick as tournament mode,

This post has been edited by synzo: Jul 26 2006, 12:51 PM

Still it is very hard to control,
i think u also know that sentinel site, 1 of the 3 spot on top
even u ward on the other side of the river
the ward will stll disturbing the neutral creep

actually i have enough for the stress of the warding issue throughout malaysia
to some extend i need to apologise to the team that have penalised by me
haha
i got no choice

good point of view
do i know u?
i think so

cool down Woo, hehe
i ll try to arrange a small meeting with WCG ppl
hope thing will goes well
if there are a need
i ll try to get some leader out for meeting.

cheers

Ian_mok, WCG marshal meeting will be at 3pm today, u interested in coming? lolx.
I'll be heading to office right now.

I've mentioned before, i feel that teams cannot backdoor unfairly anymore since they can only attack in sequence. Therefore, the next point of attack is usually the three outermost towers or buildings. Hence, it is pretty easy to identify where to defend by using wards.

Backdoor rules were useful only during version 5. e.g. a bone with mkb,bkb,burize can walk right into the base and hit the throne or barracks without hitting any towers at all. And there was no town portal scroll to purchase at v5, which makes backdooring very unfair and game turning.

In conclusion i would like the backdooring rules to be abolished because it is obselete and it just brings too much confusion to players.

About the warding issue, i feel that it is very difficult to penalise teams fairly for warding creeps, hence , it should be abolished as well.

Lets just put the scenario like this, at lvl 1 your opponent buys obs ward + gaunlets and flasks, what is your chen going to buy?? and assume that he spent all his $$ and then he has to farm 750 just to buy a gem, so that he can use his 'normal' spell.

And what is the usefulness of gem when leveling?? almost none, i would rather trade it for bracers and flasks. When u finally get a gem, do you think its safe to go clear ward? Maybe the 1st round of observer wards can be destroyed without much risk, but if your opponent are smart enough, they will buy again and ambush you when you are trying to clear the wards. They will thank you for the gem too All these hassle and risks so that chen can use his normal skill??? Its kinda unfair don't you think?

However, it is very difficult to penalise teams for warding, so i guess its tough luck for chen unless his hero comes with detection skill as well

My gf got this wicked idea about drawing a map where wards cannot be planted and if someone plant their wards there they will be penalised

As for AP or normal pick, I feel that if we are ever going to follow other countries rules and formats then we should just follow CAL since great efforts are being made for DOTA to be made into a Pro Game. They use -leaguemode and they play full game. I feel that Malaysia can incorporate those rules, however, i still prefer 60mins rule where points are calculated to decide the winner.

To make the game as fair as possible, i feel -lm mode should be used, as M4Gi_7 mentioned the fairness about counter drafting to me the other day in -AP games. Its still sentinel vs scourge but it has the elements of counter drafting in it as well.

For those who feel that having a 3rd game is very tiring, time wasting etc, i would suggest that teams play 2 games, alternating from sentinel to scourge, and if the game is tied at 1 a piece, then whichever team that wins by the most points gets the win. i.e. Team 1 won their sentinel match by 20 points while losing their scourge match by 10 points, hence, they are declared winner of the series with because they are positive 10 points. Hence, the point system rule by smm is very fair IMO.

For the game length i feel 60mins is better overall, because the game will be more intense, instead of a farming game. And for the spectators point of view,imagine standing for 90mins watching people farm. Even if its not just farming, its pretty tiring still, and the replays will be quite boring to watch as well. I usually lose concerntration on replays after 60mins

In summary:
Game mode = -LM
Game length = 60mins
Points system used ( kill = 2 points, tower = 5 points, barracks = 8 points )
No backdoor restrictions.
No warding restrictions ( unless there is a map stating where wards cannot be planted )
No bugs exploitation.

I agreed what WoOWoO suggested, the organisers should really invite some of the team leaders to discuss the fairness and appropriateness of the rules

p.s. anyone wanna hire me to be a marshall?? i got no work leh

invite KAOS-Cranky! he is a pro! he can really give good ideas!!

If I not mistaken, isnt that Chen need lv7 in the order to max his creep control skills? So I dont see why must Chen aiming for gem at Lv1.

and I dont see why must Chen going inside jungle for ward-hunting if he dont spot any opposite heroes at the mini-maps.



This guys speak the truth...

isnt that Asian WCG players suppose going to clash against other western country as the time come? If that so, Using -AP definitely is a bad move..

if Asian WCG are not suppose to clash against other country, I guess -AP is okay since Singaporean just love it.

and for those who said Scourge is more powerful than Sentinel in v632, I just dont get it ..Mind to enlight to me ? Because it seem that everyone in western country/tournament dont really have the problem with that version until it need AP mode to balance out the things.

and IF the tournament are using -AP mode, that mean the marshall will decide the winner in 1 game?

My thought About the rule:

Game mode = -LM or Normal Pick
Game length = 60mins~ 75mins
Use SMM scoring system
No backdoor restrictions.
No warding restrictions
No bugs exploitation.

Cant believe this little discussion can be 5 pages long . Seems like Malaysia's DOTA community is filled with dedicated individuals and its nice to see this going on =). Here is a few suggestions:

1. I think the Backdooring issue is pretty much settled . From the views given by top players and reffering to international Dota organiser rules (such as MYM , CAL ) backdooring is pretty much legal and its part of the game.

2. As for warding restrictions , I see no problems for placing the wards anywhere you like .Except for a few individulas in this forums who raise up fear of creep not spawning which will potentially damage Chen's usefulness in the game. May i point out that the Singaporeans themselves knew of this trick long ago and even devised counter warding in the form of sentry wards placed in areas where the placer can fish out the observer wards placed beforehand and destroy it without its own sentry wards affecting creep spawn. An obvious replay of such warding counter can be found in last season's CAL finals when Shaang from Apex who is using Chen placed 3 good sentry wards and destroy Complexity's Dogkaiser's 3 well placed observer wards to counter his creep spawn spots right at the begining of the game. At the aftermath , Shaang explained that they actually painstakingly trained placing sentry wards in training to find out the best "boxes" to plant the sentries so as to not affect the creep spawn and at the same time destroy any wards by the opponent placed to disrupt the creeps from spawning. Players like Shaang definitely researched Dota to its map layout and devised counters to protect his Chen from massive disadvantage. All I want to say , having ward restriction is just adding trouble for gamers and organisers as the debate on whether the ward is intentional and not intentional will go on and on and wreak havoc in an otherwise peaceful competition. Sometimes , the ward will not affect the creeps in Day but it affects them at night ! I say , let the wards be planted freely from now on to avoid any trouble.

3. Referring to my post on backdoor , if your team is strong enough to break the tower or throne for that matter without the help of creeps feel free to do so. This is version 6.32b , and it is totally acceptable to do so everywhere in the world.

4. As for game mode. I noticed Malaysia did a great job in following the footsteps of CAL and MYM in introducing the Senti / Scourge / AP 3 game best of 3 rule. This is a good achievement in my opinion and this should be the long term strategy for the community. Sadly , WCG is now choosing representatives to play in Asian WCG which require -AP draft rules to be used. As i noticed , Singaporeans , Indonesians and Philipinos clans have been playing -AP games quite a while now and they seem to be proud of it. As much as i despise this trend , we should be following the majority in this event now which is to use -AP draft best of 1 game in all WCG related games. This will act as a training for potential teams that will be representing Malaysia in this prestigious event.

5.Another thing worries me . I just browsed the WCG Asia website and it stated that the map used will be 6.34 or later where the international official version for tourneys now is 6.32b. Hope the organisers can change this before the finals.

6.What i am worried also is the quality of the marshalls as many do . My bro was joining a college preliminary and before the game start , the head marshall warned my bro's team not to use "epi blink" on sand king and we all like "what , is this not a 5.84c rule?" . The marshall just said rules is rules and my bro have to oblige. I sincerely hope that this kind of outdated rules be removed for the sake of improving the gaming experience of players.

7.In my opinion , the 6.32b map is perfectly designed to streamline gameplay. We do not need to place unwanted rules on it anymore. The -AP draft , fight till end rule is notable because it saves organisers and players time just like the SMM point and WCG Tower Rule tries to achieve. Other Asian communities just used the -AP draft to achieve what we all try to achieve : SAVE TIME FOR LOCAL AREA NETWORK TOURNEYS.

8. I always agree that the traditional Sent / Scourge / AP 3 game rule is always better in determining skill , but since this is a local tourney , sacrifices must be made. Maybe if one fine day when the ISPs (TMNet included) of all Asia communities reached gaming acceptable standards , we can use the traditional rule for league and online tourneys.

I hope this post can end most of the long winded discussion here =)

After reading all these comments I am getting a headache. >_>

What Odin and Underminer said basically summed it all up, and from what I have seen so far, Odin's suggestions would be one of the best. But keep this in mind, league mode only starts spawning creeps at the 3 minute mark, so it might be better if the game was to be delayed a tad bit, maybe 5 minutes or 10 minutes, and make it a 65 or 70 minute game.

I oppose to -AP draft games like the Singaporeans do because this is not what competitive DotA is supposed to be. Why does IceFrog even bother classifying heroes as Sentinel heroes or Scourge heroes if there are not going to be Sentinel vs Scourge? Hell, -AP games would end up like playing public games in Blue, what good would that make?

No matter what rules are to be applied at the end of the day, I only hope for one thing, that the rules would be standardized so that clans do not have to keep adapting their playstyle and/or lineups just to satisfy trivial rulings that ruin the game.

This post has been edited by Noobie-I-Am: Jul 26 2006, 08:00 PM

erm helllo if u dont know chen is very effective to kill hero at early game heck even at lvl 1 he can kill people with an ursa or centaur

but imo thats why there should not be any ward restriction because its hella gay to have chen+sven or vs in a lane.... so at least u can counter chen this way!

and i strongly agree with the others regarding the backdoor issue , it should be legal because this is v6 not v5 where u can skip towers

This post has been edited by Flizzardo: Jul 26 2006, 08:01 PM

well, ur post are too long, now got abit headache... Actually this is not a small discussion, you must know that... you must know 1 thing... player will get sick if keep training on different rules, they need to adapt alot thing... Sometime my mind get Blow up because of "What hero should use in WCG rules and SMM rules ?? omg there is another AP rules as well" i think not only me face this problem... I hope today WCG marshall meeting have some conclusion on it...

My point of view:
1) Allow Backdooring
2) No ward restriction ( only certain place have restriction, like wat Odin say )
3) 60min Game-Play
4) Game Mode: -lm or Team pick ( Prefer team pick coz this is the DotA purpose)
5) Point System (Hero Kill = 1 point, Tower = 5 point, Barrack = 8 point. I suggest 1 hero kill = 1 point because want player know that Tower is important too, you can see that under SMM rules, player rather get more kill then pushing the tower, IMO tower should stand more point, well just my 2 cent )
6) If throne/tree can be break, then break it... don't need wait till megacreeps...

isnt that LM and team Pick serve the same purpose except the 20 seconds things?