i think the biggest problem with DOTA development in the gaming scene now is that the major international gaming event such as CPL, ESWC, WCG do not treat DOTA as a "legitimate" competition game, DOTA is not featured in these events at the world stage, unlike CS and WC3, which these events will standardize the rules, and the rest of smaller competition will follow their footsteps.

others pros in international gaming community like CS and WC3 also treat DOTA players as just some "pro-gamers wannabe", they feel those that are pros in DOTA usually are those that failed in Single Melee WC3 and make a switch to DOTA , so without the respect and recognition of those sponsors, event organizers and other players in gaming community in international stage, DOTA will always stayed in this form, whereby each country will hold their small scale national competition, and each country will come up with different rules for their own competition.

p/s: the Asian-WCG that featured DOTA is actually an event that Singapore is responsible for, so DOTA is still not regconized in the Official Worldwide WCG.

in term of fairness and time management, maybe AP mode is the way to go, but...

DOTA is a game that based on it "Sentinels Vs Scourge, Good Vs Bad" theme, maybe the current balance in sentinels vs scourge is not yet fair, but sometimes this "imbalance" shows the best out of a team, like during the v5 era, when sentinels used to win every game, KS came up with the infamous 4 bucklers int hero & medusa strat that no team was able to beat them using sentinels....

maybe now in v6, there will be 1 team that come up with another brilliant strategy that show us all that sentinels can still defeat scourge if both teams are equally skilled, and we will cheer for that team , and that my friends, is where the romance and intrigue of a normal pick mode has over AP mode.

there is a way to solve this "imbalance" without switching tourneys to AP mode, which is to start the tourney playing both sides from the 1st round , that way teams will not argue that they were unlucky to be eliminated at early rounds because they got the "weaker" side, there is no need for a 3rd deciding game as points from the 2 games can be add up to get a total score,

there is actually no need for a 3rd deciding AP game if you are playing 2 sides, u can just do a similar system like CS, whereby points ( depending on whether which competition, towers[WCG] or herokills+towers[SMM] ) can be add up from both games to get the final result, i believe nobody will argue that this system is not fair?

i think that your question have been answered by that neslopeng in a previous post, i totally agree with him .....

well, i think no one will complain if the rules change are fair and for the better future of the game, even the loser of prelims will feel that the organizers really put their heart and soul into making WCG a better event by changing the tournament structure rather than sticking with a obsolete and unfair structure,

This post has been edited by synzo: Jul 25 2006, 12:35 AM

i would suggest this rule be scrapped as it does not give a chance for a team that losing at early and mid game to win the game by breaking the throne/tree after destroying the 2 barracks of 1 path, it also unnecessarily drag the game on even the result is already very clearly shown at some point....

if you are thinking of commencing DOTA like CS whereby every team get to play 2 sides to find out the winner, which i supports, thencancelling this break 6 rax then only can throne rule is a definitely "MUST", it will save you precious time and hassle, cause when the strong teams meet the weaker teams, the game can GG in a timely manner,

This post has been edited by synzo: Jul 25 2006, 12:53 AM

well, i think all 3 rules that you mentioned are very obsolete in competitive level of DOTA ,
1st rule backdooring is not that significant in v6, and also easily countered now by TP scrolls.

2nd rule warding of neutral creeps , are easily countered by experienced teams.

3rd rule you mention about breaking 6 rax only can hit throne also is redundant as it unnecessary drags a game on forever,

This post has been edited by synzo: Jul 25 2006, 01:10 AM

no offence, but from my point of view, i really supports an addup point system from 2 normal pick games instead of deciding 3rd game using AP mode:

1st, i feel the theme of DOTA is sentinels vs scourge, call me a romantic son of a b**** , but AP mode just totally kills this theme!

2nd, i still see certain "imbalance" in AP mode, as the team that get to choose 1st still holds a slight advantage, as they can know their opponent heroes choice from previous games, and they can take those heroes aways from their opposition if they get to choose 1st.

i think someone once said that the less u see of the referee, the better the quality of a football match is, or something similar to that,

i think the same idea applies to DOTA rules as well, i think the less "grey" rules there are in competition, the better quality of a DOTA match is.

after my years of involvement in DOTA competition scene, i notice and i think many will agree with me, that many teams out there like to use "grey"rules to overturn a game result when they loses a match, eg: the SMM game where BZ was DQ due to a player accidentally selling a flask of sapphire water that belongs to a teamate, and Penang WCG qualifier, Netzero was asked to be DQ by their opponents cause they hit the throne before clearing all 6 barracks in their opponent base, and i can go on and on wit this kind of case scenarios, the similarities of all these cases are that these teams are clearly losing the matches regardless of the winning team did "broke" those rules or not, but they canot take the defeat and resolved to using this "IMBA" DQ strat to GG their opponent,

the losing team will argue that is does not matter if they are losing the game or not, if the other team broke the rules , they should be DQ, which by letter of the law,they are correct...

the winning team will feel injustice cause they lost a match not cause of lack of skills or teamwork, but cause of a stupid rule that they did not intentionally broke....

the point i trying to make is that to cut down on this kind of incidents happening again, less "debatable" rules should be implemented, and just stick to the few basic rules that all agreed on like no pooling, no bug exploitation etc.
these kind of incidents is really annoying both for the gamers and marshalls, and will only waste precious time of gaming events that are already short of time to begin with.

This post has been edited by synzo: Jul 25 2006, 03:12 AM

Ian, i try raise the BZ issues just as 1 of the example that losing teams like to use rules to their advantage, i not trying to flame the organizer for DQing BZ ,is like u said,some rules that are not needed will reduce workload of marshall, and produce a game wit more hero kills and more combos.

the penang case i mentioned is the WCG qualifier, not the penang SMM qualifier, so i think u mistaken my point again,

actually i do have 1 suggestion of rule that maybe can help organizers to save precious time while also encouraging a more entertaining DOTA match.

my idea is the way to decide the winner after 2 normal pick games which both team win 1 game is by merely rewarding the team that win their game destroying the opponent throne/tree with the fastest time the overall victory.

this idea will definitely change the gameplan that teams have now and make them play to an uptempo, fast and furious DOTA match, which is more entertaining to viewers while also save precious time....

welcome anyone to give their opinions on this rule i suggest, just make your point constructive and helpful,

This post has been edited by synzo: Jul 25 2006, 01:13 PM

yup, basically all 3 rules that nles mentioned are already non existence in other countries highest level DOTA league like CAL & MYM.

these 3 rules not only waste precious time , it give a way for losing team to find an excuse to DQ winning teams, at the same time, also lower the standard of gameplay in a DOTA match, i totally support WooWoo point on these rules are there to make the game more easy and convenient for players of a lower standard and experience.

as for the debate on normal pick Vs AP, since the Asia Championship is hosted by Singapore, and they enjoyed AP so much, we just have to folow suits for this particular tourney.....
for those normal pick supporters, rest assured that if the worldwide WCG ever take on DOTA as official game, the game mode certainly will be normal pick and not the AP mode that singapore enjoyed so much, this is because the major western DOTA community in US & Europe all supports normal pick as tournament mode,

This post has been edited by synzo: Jul 26 2006, 12:51 PM

so the qualifier on 4&5th august is still using the game mode normal pick ?

just the semi and final round if go 3rd game, only play AP mode

did i get this right?



This post has been edited by synzo: Jul 27 2006, 12:43 AM

frankly, i feel the result of this marshall meeting is very disapointing, with all due respect, the marshalls that you held this meeting with are consider "amateur level" players in DOTA at best , after so many active tourney players voicing they approval to abolish the backdooring and warding rules in this forum, i canot believe you choose to follow your marshalls decision instead of experienced tourney players advice. but then again, there maybe a higher authority that taken this decision, so i not trying to flame you, nles, just trying to give my 2 cents on the decision that your marshall meeting have come up with....

peace out...

yup, credit to nles for being so initiative about getting gamers feedback to organize a better WCG event, while i havent see that so called head dota marshall even posting a single reply in this thread, is he the 1 that have an account in lowyat.net with a spikey hair cartoon avatar?