if u would play -AP u would know is the most fair mode coz it could go both ways... i believe all top teams would agree wif me tat scourge/senti has its imbaness in which ever versions like 6.27b most ppl think senti is imba n scourge is weaker where not 6.32b most teams goes scourge which is clearly the stronger sides .. so -Ap is definately the most balanced version... since is really up to team strategy in drafting n players adaption skillz

well, i think all 3 rules that you mentioned are very obsolete in competitive level of DOTA ,
1st rule backdooring is not that significant in v6, and also easily countered now by TP scrolls.

2nd rule warding of neutral creeps , are easily countered by experienced teams.

3rd rule you mention about breaking 6 rax only can hit throne also is redundant as it unnecessary drags a game on forever,

This post has been edited by synzo: Jul 25 2006, 01:10 AM

no offence, but from my point of view, i really supports an addup point system from 2 normal pick games instead of deciding 3rd game using AP mode:

1st, i feel the theme of DOTA is sentinels vs scourge, call me a romantic son of a b**** , but AP mode just totally kills this theme!

2nd, i still see certain "imbalance" in AP mode, as the team that get to choose 1st still holds a slight advantage, as they can know their opponent heroes choice from previous games, and they can take those heroes aways from their opposition if they get to choose 1st.

well... if you tried b4 by using gem to counter the warding creep, thing u must know is... is already slower down the neutral creep spawn, even if you clear the ward, the neutral creep still not coming out, need after few min, it only come out, if you very unlucky.. once you clear the ward, and put the gem back to base then opponent come and plant again... lol imagine it... and 1 more thing u must know... not every time spawn those Furbolg, Centaur or the Hellcaster... sometime.. some joke neutral creep come out, u need to clear it and wait again... then wat the purpose of Sentinel having Chen this hero ?? one Ward can say already kill his 50% potential... duhhhhhhhhhh

No no, what i mean is warding at neutral creeps spot but not on neutral creeps spawn.
I think that's different right??? warding on neautral creeps spawn = ward directly on neautral creeps to prevent them from spawning, but ward on neutral creeps spot = near the neutral creeps to see oponent hero farming neutral creeps

1. I define backdoor as skipping towers, following creeps or not doesnt matter, backdooring rules is simply there to prevent ppl going for barracks or throne straight. But i think the map has already made the towers,barracks and throne invulnerable to attacks before the building before the sequence is broken. Hence, i feel there is no way a team can 'backdoor' unfairly anymore, because they have to destroy buildings in sequence, lvl 1, 2 ,3 towers etc. Hence, backdooring is kind of an obselete rule.

2. Warding creeps, this is a rule that has its good and bad. Buying gem to counter observer wards is simply not cost effective, 750 vs a 215 item?? And the usefulness of obs ward at the beginning is like 100 times better than gem!! and for 1/3 the cost....that makes its 300 times better
And all these warding thing just to counter chen...which has already been nerfed significantly...

I think the main point here is, it is very difficult to penalise teams that wards creeps and decide whether it was intentionally and unintentionally. This is because even the pro players doesn't know where wards can affect the spawning of creeps. e.g. sometimes the wards clearly doesn't reveal the creeps, but the creeps just won't spawn. Intentional? or? and the warding of small creeps where chen normally doesnt steal...should it be penalised? I don't think so.

I feel that warding rule should only be used to protect the 6 batches of creeps ( 3 at sentinel and 3 and scourge) where chen usually goes to harvest creeps.

3. I made my point at the backdooring issue. I think its very simple, you hit what you can hit Things that you shouldn't hit are invulnerable anyways

P.S. About AP or normal pick, I still feel that it should be normal pick, because thats what dota is all about scourge vs sentinel. Currently, i feel that if the rules are set and players gets to train under the same set of rule for a sustained period, I feel that strats will develop in a way that it will even for both sides. After Enet vs SK in the prelims i genuinely feels that sentinel are even with scourge
About the imbaness of sentinel or scourge that may exists, I think map versions will take care of the problem, and the rules should remain constant (minor tweaks allowed)

Its getting too long hehe i think i will write more after i see more input from other gamers

i think someone once said that the less u see of the referee, the better the quality of a football match is, or something similar to that,

i think the same idea applies to DOTA rules as well, i think the less "grey" rules there are in competition, the better quality of a DOTA match is.

after my years of involvement in DOTA competition scene, i notice and i think many will agree with me, that many teams out there like to use "grey"rules to overturn a game result when they loses a match, eg: the SMM game where BZ was DQ due to a player accidentally selling a flask of sapphire water that belongs to a teamate, and Penang WCG qualifier, Netzero was asked to be DQ by their opponents cause they hit the throne before clearing all 6 barracks in their opponent base, and i can go on and on wit this kind of case scenarios, the similarities of all these cases are that these teams are clearly losing the matches regardless of the winning team did "broke" those rules or not, but they canot take the defeat and resolved to using this "IMBA" DQ strat to GG their opponent,

the losing team will argue that is does not matter if they are losing the game or not, if the other team broke the rules , they should be DQ, which by letter of the law,they are correct...

the winning team will feel injustice cause they lost a match not cause of lack of skills or teamwork, but cause of a stupid rule that they did not intentionally broke....

the point i trying to make is that to cut down on this kind of incidents happening again, less "debatable" rules should be implemented, and just stick to the few basic rules that all agreed on like no pooling, no bug exploitation etc.
these kind of incidents is really annoying both for the gamers and marshalls, and will only waste precious time of gaming events that are already short of time to begin with.

This post has been edited by synzo: Jul 25 2006, 03:12 AM

no different one la... THose NEUTRAL CREEP ARE FARKER, they very shy one, you cannot see him.. or gain spot... coz when u see him or gain spot from the neutral creep, he won't spawn one... you need the place become blind for min then he only will spawn out... becoz IceFrog design those neutral creep become shy creep...
what i say is true.. not joke... although it sound fun .. LoL

Oh well i guess we will just have to follow singapore rules because the Asian Championship is 12-13 August and Malaysia WCG finals 25-27 August.

So when is the competition to decide who is representing Malaysia for the Asian Championship??

The prizes for the Asian Championship is SGD $5000, SGD $3000S, GD $1000.

For more information check here
http://asian.worldcybergames.com/index.php

1) we have try to remove backdoor issue in state revenge, and we can feel the player wont have any pressure on pushing any lane, tower, barrack. Player won't have such an issue like, " go back go back dun hit tower" or "wait creep 1st only attack" kind of word from the player.
And, this will reduce the work load of the marshall: not need to watch carefully on the player's screen, not really need to watch replay, since this is the highest chance that require marshall team to watch the replay.
And, we actually can c more hero kill and more unstressable combo when we removed backdoor rules in Central and South Revenge.

2) warding is always an arguement in the tourney. just to use this warding rules to protect the benefit of "chen" is a bit frust. so, we have removed this.

3) i think the dota ultimate rule is to destoy the throne, so iregards of the lane, whenever u ll be able to break the throne, you are the winner.

** Regarding to the BZ case, just because they are the strong team, u all keep raising the issue, y not u go n check which team have dqed by us in JB n Melaka. Since there are a competition, there will be a rules that u must obey, irregards who are you. At last, i personally respect BZ team, because they show their sportmanship and respect to the organiser, and we gave them chance in NS tourney and they deserve the champion in NS not only of their skill and also their attitude.

** Regarding the Penang case, maybe u can check the replay, the ward is rite in front of the neutral creep(somemore, leader is the 1 who ward the place). No team dare to do like this before this, if we dun do something to the team, what will the other think of us? please stand at the viewpoint of the organiser and think.

cheers

Ian, i try raise the BZ issues just as 1 of the example that losing teams like to use rules to their advantage, i not trying to flame the organizer for DQing BZ ,is like u said,some rules that are not needed will reduce workload of marshall, and produce a game wit more hero kills and more combos.

the penang case i mentioned is the WCG qualifier, not the penang SMM qualifier, so i think u mistaken my point again,

Ya know, rules, are there for a reason, where a marshal, could use it at his/her disposal to prosecute an action. However, whether to prosecute the team or not, is entirely at the discretion of the marshal.

Of course, we don't do every thing black & white. Its like the football games. You follow every single rule in the book, the game gets kinda boring, like the infamous 30-cards-in-a-worldcup-match thingy. Sometimes we'll turn a blind-eye to some stuffs in order to ensure a smooth game. However, I believe only experienced marshals can execute this properly, with DotA still relatively a fresh face in the gaming scene hopefully as time passes by this situation will improve. Of course, constructive feedbacks and suggestions are always welcomed to enhance such processes.

Personally, I believe there are certain loopholes in the WCG R&R that needs to be mended. I believe al your suggestions here will be taken into consideration as many people are indeed reading these very threads in lowyat.NET. However, please keep post counts to a minimal and only post constructively, reading repetitive posts does make the reader sleepy ya know.



Perhaps, there might be one last modification just before WCG National Finals. Maybe if you guys send enough (proper) emails to In2, that's a maybe though

^^ okok , cheers
hope everybody enjoy dota
DotA community need a rules for the whole community
we hope the whole scenario can goes well

I've received called from few gamers and heard from few gamers on the spot about their opinion on the rules.
Because there's so much prelim around the nation, not only we can't standardise rules for different tournament. Now even rules among wcg marshal is not standardise, that's why I called up a meeting. WCG Marshals dun hate me =P, make u guys work 1 more day but i think this meeting is needed.

So gamers who got something to say bout the rules, please post here. I'll take down your points and discuss on the marshal meeting tomorrow.

This post has been edited by nles: Jul 25 2006, 12:36 PM

actually i do have 1 suggestion of rule that maybe can help organizers to save precious time while also encouraging a more entertaining DOTA match.

my idea is the way to decide the winner after 2 normal pick games which both team win 1 game is by merely rewarding the team that win their game destroying the opponent throne/tree with the fastest time the overall victory.

this idea will definitely change the gameplan that teams have now and make them play to an uptempo, fast and furious DOTA match, which is more entertaining to viewers while also save precious time....

welcome anyone to give their opinions on this rule i suggest, just make your point constructive and helpful,

This post has been edited by synzo: Jul 25 2006, 01:13 PM

If the game is stop after destroying throne/tree, i think the game will took dam long to finish, even i myself played an 2 1/2 hour game before. both side can't push in.

this rules sound similiar to some other rules(CAL or TDA rule, but cannot remember i know there already have this rule in some other tournament in other country) but if apply in the 1st round it quit waste time throughout the whole event it quit wasted time...

I got some suggestion, Allow backdooring will probably make the game more entertaining and if you want ur creep wave present at the tower there then your hero only can attack, it is kinda of joke because scourge have a double wave or blast or fan to clear 1 entire creep wave, then you need to wait another wave to continue your attack if your creep wave cannot reach the tower there, and also sentinel also have Keeper with the Illuminate to clear creep wave with a second, so it really joke if really want creep wave to reach the entire tower then only can attack.... I personally strongly supporting allow backdooring because this can be counter easily by tower portal scroll or planing Observer/Sentry ward in some critical place to see your opponent whether they going to attack which lane, and it make the game exciting, it sound more like those RPG game guild war... alot strategy can apply with this issue, well all this is just my 2 cent's maybe will not get agree by other gamers...

and 1 more thing, allow backdooring really save marshall time just what have been say by Ian_Mok the SMM Head Marshall... also happy that they remove the No Ward Restriction rule's, IMO those 6 neutral creep spot should have Ward restriction(sentinel side 3 spot and scourge 3 spot) and other place that like those ancient creep or the 3 little neutral creep can haveNo ward restriction rules becoz Chen cannot and will not go the pick those creep to control...

and 1 more thing is really really important, i suggest 60min GamePlay rather than 90min, becoz you can imagine 90min gameplay, you training that time, normally 3 hour can train 3 match but now only can train 2 game :/ and Player will get bored and tired if really play 90min game...

I think 3rd -AP game should be the way to go... since u wanna represent malaysia to Asian CHampionship in Singapore.. why not learn n get used to it? rather than goin there n have like zero ideas? About the rest of the 3 rules i totally agree wif Ian's suggestion .. apart from tat tower count is = = just go wif the point system or if its really tower count make it a 90 mins game is more consistent ...

So you're suggesting, if point system we should use 60minutes while if tower count we should use 90minutes
Currently Malaysia tourney all using normal pick, and i agree some 1 did say that is a "Sentinel VS Scrouge" game.

yea i agree it is a "Sentinel VS Scrouge" game.

now is toking bout Malaysia WCG national final (26-27 Aug) or Inter-CC match (4 Aug ?) to qualify to Asian Championship ?

for Malaysia WCG national final can stick to normal pick, POINT SYSTEM, 60 mins...

but for Inter-CC match to qualify to Asian Championship (12-13 Aug) can play -AP since grand final there will be playing -AP, not point to select best team in normal pick but final is -AP...

jus my 2 cents..

This post has been edited by Kuso: Jul 25 2006, 03:19 PM