I've been into bodybuilding (junior) for the past 2 months. One thing which I made mandatory in my workout are deadlifts. Personally, I feel like they are crucial for almost any back workout. However, the other day, I was working out with a gym buddy of mine and he made a comment which got me thinking...

"Deadlifting only works if you go heavy"

To be honest, I feel like what he said is a load of crock. I have tons of respect for the guy because he is pretty shredded and has been working out for longer than me but he just sounded so ignorant.

I am currently doing 50kgs and although its not that heavy, I can see results already. I have a fuller and thicker back.

What do you guys reckon? Should deadlifting only be done if you're going extra heavy?

imho, as long as the posture and techniques are correct and you're lifting enough weights, results will be there.. of course you'll see more results if you go heavier - assuming you are still able to maintain the correct form and techniques

Just keep increasing the weight progressively, soon you'll be doing 100kg and above. That's what I did anyway, just kept increasing 2.5kg per time after the previous deadlifting session.

Its probably because of you difference in levels. Your heavy atm might be only 50kg. Should you b doing the same weight 3 months down the road?

And 2 months into bbing, you'll get results no matter what you do.

What he probably means is that if you could do 100kgs for reps, don't make 50kgs as work sets, which is quite viable really IF you're doing iso movements

This applies to all compounds, not just deadlifts

Heavy is relative and since you are still new in BB, maybe 50 kg is at your limit while that shredded guy deadlift far much more heavier than you.

But the thing is, are you using max effort doing deadlift? Or the weight you're using is not your max (just like what Mikehuan said). Maybe that is what the shredded guy trying to tell you. Off course, he is at level knows that everyone has his limitation and asking a beginner to deadlift 200 kg is just plain stupid.

I have DOMs when I complete my sets. Pretty sure I can do heavier but form may be off and definitely won't be able to complete my sets.

Also, he doesn't incorporate deadlifts into his workout regime. Sorry if I left that out. Maybe thats' why I'm saying hes ignorant.

This post has been edited by Dar1en: Oct 15 2012, 01:53 PM

Ignorant or not, I would agree with your friend.

As I see it, deadlifts isn't for hyprtrophy. If I wanted a pump I could easily do barbell rows and get the same effect with half the effort.

Doing heavy deadlifts however, forces your body to adapt to heavier loads faster than any iso movements could ever do, which in turn increases your poundages for other lifts.

Of course don't go too heavy till your form falters, but I flaunt that line often.

And if I do complete my final set, its a PR. I don't necessarily set PRs every week.

DOMS means nothing, you can go for 15 reps - 30 reps & still get DOMS.

Regardless of he's a douche or not, I would agree to go with 1 set of 5RM (Rep Max) for deadlift. If you're approaching 12 reps then I suggest you to try 5RM & add 2.5kg each time like what Starting Strength suggest (a book, highly advised to read, or look for e-book)

Your traps & back would go amazingly thick when you're closer to 100KG (my max approach is only ~110kg unfortunately).

I agree with your friend. Deadlifts is either go heavy or go home.

Thanks will keep that in mind the next time I do deadlifts.

I forgot to mention go heavy with good form or you'll stay home a very long time.

Sigh, I tried to go heavier and I definitely had bad form. I was hunching because the weights were too heavy. A PT came over to correct me.

Felt a little bummed out...

Understand this,heavy is a relative term:

60kg might be heavy for you but its peanuts for somebody else.

Doesn't mean that you are not going heavy.

Progress at your own pace,don't try to compare with others for now.

Some tips for you to deadlift form:

Deadlift is deadlift, is not a squat, keep on low back straight tightly all the time, only squat a bit when trying to pull it from ground and once it has past your knees, straighten back your thigh and use your lower back to pull it up..

Keep your hands as close as possible (shoulder width), your legs position should be within shoulder width too..this is to maximize pulling effect (longer pulling distance) and more pulling power (arms closer to each other, more upwards force, physics bro)..

Reverse the same movement during downward phase..

You can touch or not touch the weights to ground for each reps but don't bounce as this will only let the momentum do the work..better still put the weight on the ground till its dead, then pull back up..

Try it! Later I'll show you some videos or you can try searching one at youtube..

Yeah we went soooo heavy for arms today.

practice with lighter weights and record urself deadlifting . u'll notice if u have bad form or not.

Deadlift is very dangerous exercise...its hard to do properly and can cause injury. Last time i did deadlift, i can hardly walk after the workout.

Every exercise might as well be labeled as dangerous in that logic.

I think deadlift is not too dangerous as long as you wear a belt, have good form and preferably a spotter to make sure your form does not degrade as you go heavy.

Dangerous exercise I'd class it as skullcrusher. If you want to f*** your elbows up big time then do heavy skulls lol.

All the exercises are considered not dangerous as long as the form is correct, and that includes power clean and snatch. Enough said.

Deadlifting is the ancestor for all exercises!! HAIL DEADLIFT!!Anyway back to TS concerns, Heavy or HOME.


I say HEAVY(any debates ?) ... But yes, when you go heavy there no-way you gonna focus on forms or momentum. But according to the sifu's here when you screw up the form you basically gonna screw up your back. I will say this statement is overrated.

But when you go massive heavy 100kg-120kgx2/1RM you can't focus on form anymore. YOU CANT!!

So TS it's good to go heavy but not a jump between 50kg to 100kg. Try with 3 plates(10kg) aside total 60kg for first week. Don't butt wink, straight back, drop weight to the ground for each reps.


Build your repo with Mr Deadlift, climb up with 2.5kg/5kg each day/weekly. Remember, big muscle ain't always strong.

*this is for TS who is dl 50kg(not bad at all), so i believe there is nothing wrong with his forms or posture.
Oh yeah, last but no least..rerack the plates once your done.

This post has been edited by wormyx: Oct 22 2012, 04:14 PM

Don't use "heavy" as an excuse to ignore form.

The world record holder did his attempt with perfect form.

You're just an injury timebomb

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Added on October 22, 2012, 4:25 pmOoooo it rhymed

Yay me lol

This post has been edited by mikehuan: Oct 22 2012, 04:25 PM

1) 100kg deadlift is not at all heavy.
2) Using heavy deads as reason for bad form is plain lazy. Sorry if it offends but I'd rather you be offended than end up with a hernia.

Going heavy is not an excuse for doing deadlift with poor form. If you are always training in your comfort zone where the form is perfect and the weight is not heavy, then it will be hard to maintain proper form while deadlifting heavy. (Heavy is subjective here. There is no exact value that one can consider heavy. Heavy for you doesn't mean heavy for me).

If you are always practicing going heavy, you will go heavy with good form, just like what Mikehuan said.

Try using the 20kg plates, a friend of mine was hunching pretty bad (almost looked like a "U") when he loaded up 2 10kg plates. I stopped him and just swapped the plates to a single 20kg plate per side and his form was much better, probably from the increased height(?) of the bar from the ground.

Maybe he can squat further down just to keep his lower back and upper back straight in case of lower height of the bar from the ground..as an alternative..more squat power that is..

He'd have to squat really low, almost like squat level low, to stop his lower back from rounding if he uses 10kg plates. He just started lifting 2 weeks ago so taking it slow.

or, you can just stack a few plates to increase the height of the barbell from the ground. Make it high just the same height if you are deadlifting a 45lbs plate each side. simple no?

Hi everybody,

Just got back from the gym this evening..wanna try out another one rep max attempt for deadlift..result is pretty interesting..

Today sets are:

Warm Up for One Rep Max:

Barbell 10 reps
40kg 5 reps
60kg 5 reps
80kg 4 reps

1st attempt:

120kg (previous PR in the last 4 months) = Success

2nd attempt:

130kg (new PR) = Success (form still ok)

3rd attempt:

140kg (new PR) = Success (form is off a bit but manage to pull it off)

So happy today didn't expect to pull 140kg off but i did it somehow..trying to improve the form in the future..





This post has been edited by Seasick85: Oct 24 2012, 09:57 AM

fixed it for you



Btw, why do it on the rack?

This post has been edited by alien9: Oct 23 2012, 07:52 PM

Gratz!

Okay what the form. It'll get better by itself. Yeah don't do it from the rack.

That's not a deadlift.... that's a rack pull.

^ this.

hinge at the hips and pull your shoulders back. if you need to, drop your hips a little lower.

when testing maxes, face the fact that form will suffer, usually at the shoulders with it rolling forward but never should it be about your lower and upper back.

if upper and/or lower back form starts to break down, cut the weight by 10% and work up again to your next max testing day.

Because yesterday I just would like to try it at the rack because its the first time of me pulling 130kg and 140kg, its like pre-deadlift for me..so later in the future I would like to do this on the ground..

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Added on October 24, 2012, 10:03 amThanks for the encouragement. Yeah this is my first time pulling 130kg and 140lb, so as pre-lift, I do it on the rack, so its a little bit elevate from the ground, kinda cheating there..hehe..later I gonna try do it from the dead ground.. Btw, just started deadlifting seriously this year..Form is a little bit off during 140kg since did 120kg and 130kg before..trying to keep back as straight as possible..

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Added on October 24, 2012, 10:05 amYeah I admit, whatever that it is called, next time will show you the real deadlift dead from the ground.. ^^

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Added on October 24, 2012, 10:19 amYeah thanks for your advice, however I've just started this year, my deadlift is the worst compared to other lifts..

Just wanted to ask you. about hinge at the hips and pulling shoulders back, is it the same as arching your back and pulling your chest out during bench press? Meaning to say that it will improve your deadlift power?

Well, I see this one personal who pulled 220kg for 2 reps, which is almost his max, and still his form is the same as he is pulling 50% of his max..yeah form will suffer but as long as lower back is straigth should be no problem..

Thanks again! Will try my best to improve the form..its hard if you got bench press and squat together in your regime..it's like dividing all your power for the three big lifts..

This post has been edited by Seasick85: Oct 24 2012, 10:21 AM

True, but since he can do 45lbs per side straight away with good form, why not right?

Veering away from topic , but you train at KBS ? I think i've seen you before.

or better perform with a mix progress;

one week lighter, then one week heavier...

Deadlift is the second most favorite exercise (first is SQUAT) for me

5 rep max is also good as Deadlift is not an isolated exercise.

just make sure your breathing is done correctly (veryyy important)

* Once you can master squat with 100kg ++, trust me, deadlift is easier to conduct (how i know? well, it works for me)

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Added on October 24, 2012, 10:55 amNICE lift, keep up the good work..

*but i'll prefer conducting it straight from the floor..

This post has been edited by one2ka4: Oct 24 2012, 10:55 AM

Yeah, I trained Kementerian Belia & Sukan (KBS) in Putrajaya. It is a government gym situated inside the building first floor.. The equipment is pretty much as brand new since government maintained it..and its month payment pretty much cheap..rm30 for student and rm40 for worker..

They got all necessary items such as power racks which you can see in my video doing deadlift, bench press hammer strength rack, leg press hammer strength etc..the dumbbell racks have weights ranging from 5lb to 50lb, rubber and steel, few pairs each..

Most of the regulars there are strength trainers..although there are few random people are just coming in and out..

Do I know you?

Works the other way around too lol. My squat numbers increased even though I didn't do it for a few months.

i can squat 100kg quite confortably, but i struggle at 100kg deadlift as i seldom perform deadlift. btw my weight is 67kg ..

Haha , nah. I'm just the random trainee there. I generally use the power rack or the old Squat rack around there.

Vids or it didn't happen!

Forum lacking some action lately. Probably I'm gonna take some squats vids later this week just to liven things up.

Gratz. However its kinda unbalanced strength you got there between your squat and deadlift..but yeah i believe you since i saw people like your case..his max squat is 150kg and yet he barely can do 145kg deadlift..

Mind to show some vids of your squat form?

It's a deadlift la. Partial deadlift and his form looks good. Rack pulls are a lot higher up in pin settings.

Out of all seriousness. An inch higher from your foot makes a whole lot of difference. Even putting a mat under the weights to aid with lessening the sound made makes a whole lot of difference.

It should be pulled off the ground. That is a legit deadlift.

This post has been edited by fabians94: Oct 24 2012, 02:29 PM

There is a difference between partial deadlift and rack pulls. Rack pulls remove all leg movements and focus more on back movements

I agree its a difference, but if you aren't competing it shouldn't matter in the big picture.

Then he should rightfully claim that it's a partial deadlift PR.

There aren't any powerlifting competitions in malaysia afaik. But no one wants to know how much you can partially deadlift.

Well he freely admitted it wasn't a full dead. I don't see why it shoud bother anyone?

It doesn't bother me actually. I just had to mention that it wasn't a deadlift.

I see so many people claiming that they massively deadlift and all i see is they're pulling off the pins in the squat rack with straps and belt. that... bothers me.

cerewet nak mampos. chill dude.
why do you have to make a big deal about it?

I seem to always get misinterpreted. It's not a big deal. I was just pointing it out.

Woah.. I'm becoming a hot topic now..lol..ok2, chill..sorry dude that was a PARTIAL deadlift..I may make a wrong claim but the reason is that I'm just so happy cause early this year, I can only do 100kg max deadlift, so now I can do 140kg deadlift, although it is just a partial, I'm happy with it..furthermore, there's no worry since I have lots more room to improve on my form and strength since I'm not seasoned yet with deadlifts..unlike my bench press, I seem to have difficult time to increase due to seasoned muscles..and that is one of the rules of strength sports where you need to regularly adapted to new strength routines just to learn new ways to improve form and strength..

and THAT is what I'm currently doing.. I understand how you feel when I said that it was deadlift..but for some people who doesn't really care about partial/full/rack pull deadlift, they sure don't mind it..

Anyway, thanks to all who backing me up and the compliments.. Keep on pumping iron!

Same for me. 270 squats for reps (x6) but pulling that for deads isn't easy for me. Maybe two plates for reps (220) max.

You know, at first I also had the same feeling as mikehuan here where he mentioned that squat works hand-in-hand with deadlift..but i guess that is only a part of the issue here?

The same muscle group that works during both exercises are:

1) Lower back (if you do back squat and bend a bit for hip drive, then it becomes obvious).
2) Quadricep? maybe if you squated low enough during dead stop bottom phase, which I didn't.
3) Hamstring (only if you squated deep enough to feel it in your hamstrings as in full squat).
4) Calves (both exercise has same impact to it, correct me if I'm wrong).
5) Abs (both exercise has same impact, the difference is squat contracts your abs and deadlift expand your abs, correct me if I'm wrong).

and knees and joints..

Other than that, I think there are no direct relationship between both exercise because others parts like traps, front shoulder is not related. So most probably its that unrelated muscles which cause your weak link during a deadlift..not too mentioned your grip strength..

Just a thought

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Added on October 24, 2012, 4:06 pmOo yeah just to mention that one personal trainer in KBS said that you must do squat before deadlift..meaning if you do deadlift, it will impact your squat strength but if you do squat first, then you should deadlift it with no problem.. I guess he say this bcoz he utilizes his lower back much during squat, and obviously its a back squat bcoz front squat you must stand straight so lower back is not used..

So i still think that it depends on the know-it-how execution for both exercises..

Otherwise, you would have bigger deadlift than your squat?

This post has been edited by Seasick85: Oct 24 2012, 04:06 PM

Good for you then

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Added on October 24, 2012, 5:10 pmI personally think that if you if can do more squat, deadlift by right, should be moreeeeeee..

*to me, squat using smith machine are for warming up only...

This post has been edited by one2ka4: Oct 24 2012, 05:10 PM

Maybe you should check your squat depth. Because if you haven't entered the 400lbs category, your deadlift should be higher than you squat.

Sigh.... you really need to unwind.

So now you are questioning the validity of my squats?

FYI they are azz to grass not just parallel.

I've seen your deadlift video. You are awfully cocky for a noob you know?

There's no reason for your deadlift to be weaker than your squat then.

ah, yes that video. I don't consider myself to be a cocky person but that's fine.

Orrrrrrrr........I don't train it as often? Because I prefer to mix it up on back day?

I think you don't train your techniques probably..it probably comes together with right technique and practice..suppose a full squat should increase your deadlift due to increased lower back strength..

Mix it up on back day? Together with rows and pull ups? Y dun you combine squat wif deadlift? I think back should be together with chest back to back training?

Just some thoughts...

Of course you wouldn't think you're cocky. Self evaluations are almost always positive

Questioning someones form without even a video to evaluate? You really like to assume alotta things ya know?

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Added on October 24, 2012, 9:45 pmOr probably the person thinks squats are more important? Let him follow his routine

This post has been edited by mikehuan: Oct 24 2012, 09:45 PM

If he ATG squats 270 there's no reason he can't pull 220. I just don't see the logic behind it. Even if he doesn't pull frequently. His lower back, quads, hams and glutes should be strong enough to pull atleast 315. Theoretically speaking.

the only thing I can think of is that his setup isn't optimal.

He just mentioned that he mix his deadlifts wif other lifts.. maybe he left that out.. so problem solved..

Instead of blatantly accusing him of bad form why not give him benefit of doubt and ask for vid instead?

I didn't accuse, I just said "maybe you should check the depth of your squat". This is advice, not an accusation.

I just want to say - I can pull 220. Not just pull 220 but pull for reps (x6) with perfect form.

I will be the first to agree this is far from a great achievement and no way will I brag about this, but from the looks of your video, you have some ways to go before giving out any advice - maybe try lifting for a few years first k.

I won't be posting a video on the Internets, but feel free to come to True Fitness J33 and see those 270 ATG squats for yourself instead of critiquing.

Leg day is every Tuesday night. See you by the cage.

Now, can we end this argument. It is getting boring.

strong post to pull ratio.

Hmmmm..........after thinking about it, I can think of two weak points about my deadlift:

1) I don't use straps so my grip could be the weak link. I did use to own a pair but lost them.
2) I usually do them last (and not every week as well). So that could be one of the problems.

Well, my current PR for squats is 236 lbs for 3 reps and deadlift is 264 for 2 reps. I hardly trained my deadlift and always be in caloric deficit.

no, you don't arch your back as when you bench. you need to keep in mind that when you deadlift, you should have a flat back (ie. neutral spine). it also helps to pack your neck (try to make a double chin, that's basically it).

the process of hinging at the hips allows for the bar to be pulled in a vertical manner up and along your shins and passing your knee. the moment you start to pass your knees is when your hips track back into place over your knees allowing your body to be in the upright position.

you pull the shoulders back to both further pack your upper back/neck region and to remove any slack before you start your pull. if you let your shoulders roll fowards, you might not have stayed tight enough throughout the lift making it a little bit more difficult and possibly effecting shoulder health in the long run.in the long run.

This post has been edited by whatdamn: Oct 25 2012, 02:33 AM

To keep things tight, just imagine yourself as a spring. Compress yourself as much as possible holding on to the barbell before lifting.

And joeblows you should have probably mentioned you do deads at the end of back days. I would imagine your numbers should increase by a bit if you did it at the beginning. How about squats? U do it at the end as well?

Thanks for the tip mike.
I do squats at the beginning but even then I do a lot of warm up sets. Minimum of 4 but usually 5 and high rep (10-15) moving up the weights.

Reason for this is I got a bum knee and it'll pop and feel tight if It's not warmed up properly.

I don't think its advisable to do the few main lifts at the end of a workout. It's better to do them when your CNS is still fresh.

Thanks for the hips and shoulders tips..will try to adopt that in future deadlift forms..

However, I argued that you don't arch your back during bench.. I've seen various trainers and articles and even try it out myself to slightly arch during benching..this not only imitates the decline movement which utilizes less shoulder stabilizing effect but also closing the distance between the bar and chest which makes it easier.. it also has been adopted in powerlifting style.. maybe for bodybuilding, that's the case of not arch to maximize muscle exhaustion by not locking out and not touching the chest.. But slight arch won't hurt much though..

Here is some of the tips found on the stronglifts 5x5 regarding bench pressing tips:

5 Tips to Improve Bench Press Technique:
1. Keep proper arch to your back, an arched back creates a decline pressing position and everybody knows you can decline press more weight then incline or flat. It does this by giving your body more leverage and cuts the total distance the bar has to travel by nearly half.

2. Keep the proper grip width, If you grip too narrow you won’t be able to lift as much as you will be recruiting more triceps and lest chest, too wide and you will not be able to do as much weight, and you will get less travel. You want your forearms perpendicular to the floor when the bar is touching your chest.

3. Lock in your back, I picture my lats squeezing together so hard that they actually pinch the bench. If you can keep your back tight and strong it will provide the optimal platform for when you are pushing all of that weight off of your chest. Also be sure to get your rear shoulders as flat to the bench as possible, again this just adds to the strength of the platform that you are pressing from.

4. Keep your feet in a wide stance, this will give you more stability and a stronger platform to push from. There are two placement positions that can give you great results, one is to keep your feet flat to the ground and the weight of your legs positioned on your heels. The other placement is to put your feet as far behind you as possible even as far so that your feet are nearly directly below your glutes and put all of your leg weight on your toes. The increased leverage can help to increase your bench pressing power and help you to add weight quicker to your bench press.

5. Get the proper grip on the bar, by doing so you will gain more power and control of the weight. Put the bar in the palm of your hand and squeeze the bar tightly, I have heard that if you imagine that you are bending the bar like you can a raw spaghetti noodle you will increase your power in the bench.



This post has been edited by Seasick85: Oct 25 2012, 10:00 AM

Well, kinda depends. I've tried doing deads and squats both in the beginning and end of workouts.

At the end, is great for glycogen depletion. You'll be completely gassed out doing even your warm up weights

In the beginning, great for strength gains. But you'll be doing mostly ***** weights for the rest of the workout.

Either way works.

Have you ever consider to use knee protection? What's weights you used for warm ups? Should be at 50% one rep max for the last warm up set coz you don't want to exhaust the muscles during warm ups..

Eg You Max is at 300lb, say you do 5 sets of warm ups, the last set, 5th set, should be 150lb for 10-15reps..

How about using chalk if your gym allows it, or an eco ball? My grip was always failing first when I was doing deadlifts previously, and mixed grip just felt weird for me. Using the eco ball as a replacement to chalk has helped improve my grip, bought it from Camp 5 at 1u.

just few days back.. after almost 2 years of workout n doing deadlift.. i finally realise.. this whole time my deadlift form is wrong.. somehow i did not touch the floor the whole set (8-10 reps).
i just kept holding the barbell in half-squat position when returning it.. the plate is about 1-2 inch from the floor..
I think this is why why forearm fails me and i stuck with 120 kg deadlift for a long time..daym

Good for somebody to realize that he's doing it incorrect while still able to do 120kg so called "deadlift"..huhuhu..

Fabian. You really need to chill. Not everything is about theory. You don't know everything. Experience counts for more. And frankly, there are a lot of things you can learn from the members here, don't come in acting like a know it all. It doesn't help anybody. .

I was just providing my input. The intention behind it was to help not to brag that I know everything.

I could think of a few reasons why the push pull ratios can be different

Eg..
Person is anatomically not suited for deadlifts (short arms)
Injuries
Grip strength
Training method
Frequency of doing deads
Duration of training
Imbalanced muscle groups
Form

No reason to jump to negatives without proof

+1, theory versus experience

IMO shorter arm's are better for deadlifts. The weight will break off the floor easier.

Everything else other than injuries are all training based.

I guess it's goal orientation then. But i mean... ego boosts are so awesome. It's going to take a long time to boost yourself mass wise, but much shorter strength wise.

shorter arm = long distance from floor, harder
longer arm = shorter distance from floor, easier

THIS, comes from experience..

The catapult needs less tension to pull if you have shorter arms.

Upper back tends to round more and hips tend to raise earlier if you have longer arms.

The arm sticks to where it is right? So longer arm has lesser distance to pull..i don't see the effect of longer arms causing u to round your upper back n hips raise..shorter arm has to squat lower n makes it even more challenging..longer arms no need so y rounding your upper back then?

reverse principal for benching..

Just to show you what I mean, take a look how my hips raise earlier than the weight. Set up starts at 0:35



This post has been edited by fabians94: Oct 25 2012, 03:25 PM

I think the issue there is your form..lower back not strong enough to keep it straight, hence hips raised first.. but i still think shorter arms is much harder to pull.. shoulder is rolling forward..

try squat even lower to compensate the longer arms..

This post has been edited by Seasick85: Oct 25 2012, 03:38 PM

I disagree.

The thing that keeps your spine neutral is the squeezing of your chest upwards once you've gripped the bar that translates to the lumbar.

But if that tension remains throughout the lift, the bar path should be shorter. Hard to maintain when maxing out.

ok, so? weak squeezing of the chest upwards?

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Added on October 25, 2012, 5:06 pmDeadlift – Bone Structure

Conventional deadlift. Lifters with a short torso and long arms will generally perform better using conventional deadlifts.

Sumo deadlift. Lifters with a long torso and short arms will generally perform better using sumo deadlifts.

http://www.muscleandstrength.com/articles/...nformation.html

Refer to this, Fabian94..you're duin conventional deadlift in ur video..so longer arms will perform better.. see?



This post has been edited by Seasick85: Oct 25 2012, 05:06 PM