Heard quite a few Malaysians gave up their citizenship recently, quite a number across the causeway, from close ones to friends and relatives. Few docs friends pack their bags to find a greener pasture last yr.

What to expect, to put food on table also got harassed, to earn an honest living and sponsor children education also got destroyed, to follow rules and regulation/black and white also kena force to go under table. Special treatment from baby to school to jobless graduate to early retirement also need sponsor.

Prepare your sons and daughters to be global citizens, forget about the corrupted regime, the future generation will survive any where. Let the corrupts rot in the rotten state.

Nothing is permanent. No Bh is permanent. Even our life is not permanent. Our ancestors have proven their success, we might have to do it again if things got worst with continual threat and harassment. Economy will collapse if one by one pack the bag and say good bye.

May be they prefer this place to be like Indo or worst Afican in future.

Sorry no offence to any one related directly or indirectly. The message is directly aim at the head. No one else in the forum.

This post has been edited by Bobby C: Mar 25 2009, 09:38 AM

Coming back to more serious matter, has anyone any news about the new national guidelines from Jabatan Perancangan Bandar & Desa and that according to my source, it sound really bad for the town BHs. One point highlighted in the GL is that all BHs must be moved in 3 years.

Anyone has any information on the new National guidelines from JPB&D will be appreciated......if it's true, then all efforts made by DL in Kedah will come to nothing unless Help arrive before the gazetting. Any information from the Malaysian National Association for Swiftlets.....

Like to break the ice, since 2 days have passed without any comments posted.

West Wing, just wonder whether your local BN association has already aware about this? I presume you must have already informed them. What is their course of action?

3 years grace period is a very crucial economic decision of the government, devoted specially to the "rakyat" like us.

If the town BH owners still make no effort to understand the decision, do not have the intelligent position and do not make the position known, we obviously surrender all power to those who do understand, pretend they understand and may not understand at all. End of the day, you can be sure that the decision so made rarely will be damaging to those who make them, but may be adverse to those who do not involve yet need to live with it everyday.

This post has been edited by Engineer Lee: Mar 27 2009, 04:13 PM

they had CALL OF the 3years period after the meting between the minister

keep cool

3 yrs just nice ie 2012 ie 13th GE.

Which party try to be funny will get kick out before the birds.

Yes, Dato T has also informed me that guidelines from Jabatan Perancangan Bandar & Desa need further study but will still be under the same Jabatan.

Many thanks to the Dato and his team and also the Minister involved to be able to prevent it. Hopefully, all will be well.

As I am unable to help as the rules changes so fast for me and I feel so useless and therefore, I has withdraw renomination for the President of my local Swiftlets Association during this week AGM. Now I will be able to have good night sleep........hope that the new President can do a better job like ensuring that our local BHs are all safe and well.

As president of any Association, he must put members before oneself as to act otherwise or in bad faith will be an act of treason to the trust and faith given to him by the members.

Again, above are my own comments only.

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Added on March 28, 2009, 11:32 amAlso, all BHs must be very successful as there are not question on the problems of BHs, everyone must have been very successful with their BHs.....Syabas, maybe we shall talk on how to get a better price or how to sell our birdnests.

Anyone has bright idea? As for here, our Association has organised talks on how to export nest to China and lately, on how to process nest the right way....and from their feedback, all participants are happy and we are glad.

Have anyone know of any course on how to convince the government on allowing BHs @ towns................

Some points to share when dealing with the local authorities.
1. We move but the birds stay.
2. How to move
3. Eco farms will be a failure without the town's BHs as the towns produce 80% of the new birds so where to find birds for the new eco farms.
4. Since town produce 80% of the nests, we are going to lose the industry as a whole.
5. The complaints from others can be solved by local BH Association having dialog with the MPK/people concerned. The only complaints receives are from the tweeters which can be corrected.
6. Another, no diseases are transmitted by the swiftlets and most of the diseases are from pigeons and othere birds as the swiftlets do not touch the ground.
7.Also, Dengue cause by mosquitoes but each swiftlets take in hundreds of mosquitoes a day, thus helping to rid of the Mosquitoes carry diseases.
So, all forum participants should add more to the lists for all concerned to forward to the authorities.

Again, above are my own view on the subjects.

This post has been edited by West Wing: Mar 28 2009, 12:02 PM

To add benefit of town BH compare to ecopark:-

i. Risk factor ie risk vs investment. a) Ecopark high risk as building cannot convert for other purposes if bird refuse to stay. Farming animals are forced to stay. Swiftlets free to come and go. b) Ecopark high risk as income generation probably 2-3 after investment. Town BH ground floor can be rented out to cover cost. c) Ecopark eg average 50 units side by side, by statistic swiftlet/50 but in real world probably more birds going to enter few houses say 1/5 sucess, so 4/5 say bye-bye to investment.

ii. Security problem. Ecopark away from town, with guards also post problem, can be tied up in the middle of night.

iii. Ecopark no different from normal shop house. If they are so afraid of disease, by right ecopark should be located say 30km from civilisation in the jungle, so post problem i & ii again. But the fact is swiftlets have been staying in town, exist all the while way before this industry was discovered, so why suddenly they are panicking? Why are they not afraid of diseases from cats and dogs at home? Domestic animals are the worst as they in contact with human. Swiftlets only stay above the sky never hang on cable or mix with other species.

iv. Other normal complaint eg sound / aestatic can be solved by associations and enforcement.

Hi guys....


to me the issue remains;

1. preventing 'relocation' of BH premises from urban to rural/agriculture land.

- this includes enforcement methods, wavers and etc
- survival of swiftlets in closed down premises (chicks WILL die)
- utilizing international conventions of conservation... (just like historical buildings under preservation laws), once established as a haven/sanctuary/breeding area for swiftlets... it should be UNTOUCHABLE. Keyword, international conventions of conservation, prevention of cruelty to animals.
- who the f--k gave the idea that 'relocation' is possible? this is not conventional rearing of domesticated animals. i bear a grudge on this idiot. unless they come up with some sort solid transition or some miracle...

2. the distorted stigma of society

- the public and more so the authorities are either ignorant or just plain idiots or not even making an effort to understand the industry properly. how can they make decisions on something they don't know?
- swiftlets eat small insects including mosquitoes. the do not transfer blood borne human diseases. siapalah mangkuk ayyun yang percaya these stuff.
- no shit/guano outside of BH. they can't differentiate seriti.

3. stupid BH owners

- the ones who blare out audio 24hrs 7 days a week. seriously, just a few bad apples are enough to make society stereotype BH owners.

These are just some problems.... but in the end i still propose evidence based research. You have the contacts, associations and network... do a proper research (saying so means proper methodology, sampling, indicators and stuff) using one of the associations as a platform to prove these misconceptions as wrong. Yes, there is theoretical justification for everything , but evidence based is much more convincing. My advice, take at least 30-60 BH's. 5 is enough to make a chi square but it would be laughed at.

take note incidences of dengue, chikunguya or whatever health (human) indicators within a safe radius of 5 km? maybe less. Take note of key indicators of the population (swiftlets). Better still, try attaching the research with a public uni.

Dunno lah, i think we lack good record keeping and lack research. Maybe ask CK Lim on preparing a good questionnaire then asking your friends among BH owners to fill it in, and analyze the data. Of course making the questionanaires anonymous (so takde la invasion of privacy). Maybe some interviews, testimonials, etc. Supportive/complementary.

This post has been edited by dunsuntutmybuntut: Mar 29 2009, 09:00 AM

In my opinion, we have with us many readers from all walk of life including those who are involve in the setup of any guidelines. Also, we have many of the Bumi swiftlets groups with their members whom some are maybe government officers and even YBs or VIPs who are very effective with the government and they will be able to apply leverage to support us.

So, by giving them pointers on the swifltets industry, I hope that they understand and will be able to forward our views better for what they lack are knowledge and experiance in the industry.

As always, above are my sincere suggestions and hope someone out there have better suggestion or idea.......better do it now than regret later.

I believe that we have with so many experts in almost all fields and they may contribute to the future of swiftlets' sanctuaries in town.

Since we do not know what will become and when it will begin or how it will happen but if we are informed on how and what to do if thing really turn sour....at least we know how to react fast and effective to save our life time saving and our children's education dreams. Some even of early retirement...need not wait until our house on fire then we look for well.

Thanks for all those who have help to preserve the BHs in towns and I wish them good health, good life and good fortune.

Who says cannot relocate the birds?

In Sarawak, the government and their related agencies successfully relocated the Niah Cave's Swiftlets to Mulu Caves since 50 yrs ago. It was only in the last 10+ yrs the private sector relocated even more from the other caves to city bird houses.

The drop in bird population in Niah Caves & other caves is not due to over harvesting. The wild life department has done a splendid job in protection & conservation. White hair and his gang just want us (town BHs) to adopt their methods & relocate to their eco parks.

if u come to Kuching i bring you to see panggang swiftlet.all the feather near the entarace of cave.Bau area cave.they get the nests where got chick haven learn how to fly and they eat it.

If you ever read from western websites on swiftlets, they ar against harvesting birdnests and will tell their readers to boycott birds nest because the cave swiftlets population is falling due to over harvesting of nests and killing off the chicks and eggs.....and here come the savers in the form of BHs in towns, increasing the population of swiftlets to the present level.

If we leave them to the state government of Sarawah, the swiftlets may be extincted in Malaysia's caves because of the high price of the cave nests but due to the fact that the public now accept the nests in town as par with the Cave type, the price of Cave Nests are even lower than the Town's nests. The reason because the cave nest need bleeching and difficult to harvest and now facing lower price than that of the town nest. I have a guy calling me all way from Sabah offering me cheap cave nests. Thinking that I can make profit, I phone up some cleaners and none are interested at all.

The Authorities now inform us that the Indonesia are now facing a drop in swiftlets population and they blamed all with the lack of food. Bullshit, all due to 45 days cycle now very popular among the BHs as this method provide the best birdnests and that fast recovery of the investment.

The problem will be that there will be no increment of new birds but the profit will maintain for at least for 6 to 8 years until most of the old birds are to old to reproduce and that the end of the swiftlets.

Luckily, we still have many swiftlets breeders or I would rather called Sanctuary providers which the swiftlets can safety lay their eggs and multiply. Previously, I did proudly told the new investors in the buz that I contribute to their success and alot of their birds are from my BH as my one BH can produced 24,000 birds per years enough for all the new BHs around my area.

Moving swiftlets need foster parent like swallows by throwing away swallows eggs, won't that be a sin or crime to murder the off spring of another species just to justify our hunger for money. Hand feeding, absurd as we really think that we are doing something right...I sincerely think that we are very wrong. Why swiftlet do not carry virus as they do not touch the ground but now by hand feeding and rearing swifltets, we are transmitting the virus by food to the swiftlets. One wrong incident will put all BHs to extinction.

Never play God as we believe in God. Allow nature to do its part.....I prefer to be called a provider of sanctuary for swifltets and I can demand my right to take the used nests as a payment for my services. Although the fee is high but then taking care of swiftlets is no easy job...for me at least.....ha.ha.ha.

Get any Government representative to talk to me on how they can successfully move all the swiflets to eco parks and I will show him my middle finger before I speak. Sorry for my bad manner.

Again, above are all my personal feelling for the swiftlets and have not intetion of hurting anyone at all.

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Added on March 30, 2009, 4:52 pmIf you ever see what the sky over the Sarawak's caves like say 15 years ago and now, you will see white spotted sky now but a black sky then. Millions and millions or swiftlets zooming into the cave during the evening but now, just like my kenching, sedikit lalu sedikit sahaja. Ask the East Malaysia harvesters on how much they collected then and now.....

Moving maybe possible or maybe fail but you need 10 years to find out if you are successful and also, some source of providers of swiftlets but then if you killed all swiftlets @ towns , where to get your supply...importing the eggs or chicks from Indo or Thai. But if all my neighbouring BHs follow my method of harvesting, I can assure them of the black (golden) sky in future like they saw at Sarawak 15 years ago, Ishaallah.

This post has been edited by West Wing: Mar 30 2009, 04:52 PM

Thanks West Wing for your views. I love the term 'Sanctuary Providers', and this term should be considered a term for swiftlet conservation.

I believe there is a difference between relocation from caves to caves, caves to town BH's... and relocating from town BH's to the so called eco-farks (-parks) or agriculture land. The main difference? By the time a BH owner is able to reap the same value of harvests he or she had previously (or could possibly get if no relocation happened)... it would probably be from 6 feet under. It involves income, money, monetary gain... secondly it involves costs... buying/building a new BH or purchasing a new lot in the eco-fark. It would be more practical to leave the existing BH's alone (protecting the already established population) but enforce the rules to new BH operators.

Secondly... there maybe a misconception or the terms 'relocating' and 'migrating'. Theres a higher possibility the birds from caves migrated out of necessity rather than actually being relocated. Stress, over harvesting, safety etc. I do not see any reason relocation is necessary since the swiftlets are just fine staying in town BH's. Most of the complaints are baseless and more due to ignorance or envy and of course due to irresponsible owners.

Lastly, i still believe we are incapable of handling or managing the industry properly. The authorities lack the in depth knowledge, some industry players are just playing around for their own interests... and most producers rather keep a low profile and not get involved with the power play. I still hope one day all sincere owners will stand up with a unified voice to protect and defend the industry.

The wildlife department on the other hand, must buck up. Conservation is its sole essence of existence. What happened in Mukah violated that very essence. Operating permits? huh. You all know the story.

I also agree with West Wing. The Malay BH owners are mostly influential people. Again and again i pushed the idea of alliance. Use these peoples flair and influence for the benefit of the industry. The sincere ones la, not the lousy ones. Malaysia has some biases (will i get caught under ISA for this?) in its fundamental pillars of society, we should use that to our advantage.

Just one question... i have recently studied the mist system. New stuff. But interesting. Nest Tech & Crystal Swiftlets... can anyone vouch for them? Thanks.

IMO, our fellow swiftlets' moving from the caves to the town BHs is not relocation, but is more of natural selection or adaptation to the nature's calling, i.e to re-site from being endangered. This was resulted from the life-threatening changing or adverse factors that jeopardised their original habitats.

Birds shifting from the caves to towns and from towns to places away from town like eco-parks are totally two different stories, which I would rather treat them as different entities.

To me, the former is history and cannot be undone anymore.

However, the latter concerns the human efforts and the plight of losing-livelihood BH owners, and more importantly….we still have time to change the outcome.

Why taking trouble to relocate them when the town BHs are still conducive for the swiftlets to reside?

For God’s sake, we must not let this happen!

We should change it before we are changed.

You guys really believe what I wrote about relocation from Niah Caves to Mulu Caves?

I am speechless!

Hey, I know you too well to think of you like that, bro.

No worry, just in case anyone has wrong infos so we need get matter right.

sorry to every one, not good with the computer, wrong click

Let discuss about swiftlets cases

A friend whom I am guiding since he re-renovated his BH after a failure to get any bird after 3 years took me out for a coffee talk. Since he has followed my advice, he is very happy with his result of over 500 nest after over one year and the number keep increasing.

The reason for his visit was that his BH is a 4 story building and using an open roof type but these few days, alot of birds returning and many were trying to enter his 2nd floor back wall window and hitting at the window doing it.

Wonder why, my feeling is that since his next door BH has an back wall open window type and the new birds returning mistook his BH as his neighbour's. So, they are trying to enter.

I jokingly suggested that he move out of the building to allow his neighbour new birds to fly in thru his window to make their new families there.

What's your comments or what do you think has happened?

Today, while supervising the work in progress of my 85% completed BH, I found a honey bee's nest about the size of a Pemelo in the 1st floor ceiling. My workers "harvest" the honey nest but the honey bees still flying around in the 1st floor. Will swiflets eats honey bees ?
Though my BH is still under construction, quite a number of swiftlets already flying low near (approx 1m to 3 m) at the top floor area to check up this new Hotel. Before BH erected, I never see them flying so low. Any one know why ?

This post has been edited by aeiou228: Mar 31 2009, 10:50 PM