Thanks Ir. Lee for reposting my post, i don't fully comprehend what happened, but thanks a bunch!

My honorable fellow forumers, the issue of CON-sultants was described in the old post by many of us. For those new to the forum, you can browse thru the old thread, most of it is just repetition, but you can get a rough idea on how to value a consultant.

About those mega-bird house projects... i still hold the same view... i do not see the relevance, nor do i see any facilitation or good effect to old shop lot BH's. One reason because, i still believe the limitation of population, feeding area and basically sustainability of a population is a major factor. Maybe we should learn from our Indonesian friends, on how gradually concentrated areas are facing lower output... many old gurus over there have started seeing this problem... why should we follow the footsteps of those who have gone thru such experiences? I'd rather a fixed margin or distance between BH's, such planning or layout would benefit us, in stages, and gradually. This is just a point of view, in the end its still 'The Best BH WInS!".

I also still oppose relocation of established BH's. Go on ahead and enforce the rules to new or to be renovated BH's, but do not touch the ones with birds already up to the 9-10th generation. These birds already consider such places home, and as i said before... PERHILITAN should help such BH's to preserve this habitat, NOT break them down and killing the young birds and causing stress to the adults... and to those birds who are just about to lay eggs. This is a crime. It goes against PERHILITANS existence.

Is there any updates about the revised guideline and Kedah's enforcement? Is there any petition or gathering to protest? Please inform me, i am only one person but i would like to join such show of concern for the industry, i will join the ranks of BH owners soon (successful or not is to be seen, but hey, i'ev learned a bunch from this forum).

Honestly speaking, i agree with every bit of your ideas, the public awareness part, the working to gether part with agencies... but i think the main concern is how to make the authorities listen. If they can't even comprehend what Dr. Redzuan has explained... a government official at that... how do we make them listen to the BH owners? They don't even invite BH owners to such meetings. How to make the BH owners representation heard? They can always acknowledge charity drives by BH associations, but what to stop them from making rules & regulations to our disadvantage?

I emntioned earlier, PBT's and gov agencies will be hard to share their authority over things... real hard. Can we actually make a PBT listen? How? I really want to know so i can start taking steps in my PBT area.

What i do have an idea is, but please don't bash me, its an idea... Is to make BH industry a poverty eradication program. Maybe link with these so called agencies or ministries and build BH in poverty stricken areas as an alternative source of income, sustainable income generated for the mentioned community. BUT, this should only be managed by owners with a good track record of production and a good record of success. If the UNDP's Convention On Biodiversity is to be carried out (2007, but till now slowly progressing since Malaysia sucks with too much red tape)... this might be doable. In other words, approaching the issue from a different perspective, from a social responsibility point of view, at the same time contributing to poverty eradication. Just an idea (i am sometimes involved with such research, in a limited capacity, but such issue i know very well). Maybe this is the missing element in lobbying?

100 BH's. I want to own that much too, but now just started with ONE. Wish me well please, and pray charity will always be in mind.

Update on my BH's progress, jcb work done. Workers arrived today, their temporary residence settled. can anyone share the possible problems faced during construction? i appreciate all the advice given.

Qouting myself froman earlier post;

"It has caught my attention that some flaming occurred. Flame on all you want, as long as there are valid points & facts and for the interest of the industry. At times harsh words are needed and judgment necessary."

So please go on. I respect each and everyone's point of view, but will and shall oppose them if seem inappropriate and necessary (based on whatever i have in my head).

Rainy days will be a problem i geuss, now it rains almost every afternoon. The toto magnu problem, they can eat my shoe! Hahaha!

Has any of the state association started making petitions? I seriously am afraid if this industry will be rules by iron claws by the authorities if nothing is done soon. The draft is way too biased and does not address the issues in hand. The least we can do is try to ensure;

1. the safety of already established BH's

This is my main concern. Relocation my arse. Whoever gave that idea must think he's God or sumthin. Tearing down BH's will only mean death and distress for the swiftlet, and again i stress this is AGAINST PERHILITANS essence of existence. Please i beg to all association leaders and heads, try corresponding with NGO's like WWF, Malaysian Nature Society and other international conservation bodies in your official capacity. Explain to them the scenario, they as pure conservationist with no hidden interests should provide a good supportive voice. Maybe someone with the proper channels can call up National Geographic, make a documentary or something about the industry and expose how the government agencies are not prepared. Even an independent documentary would be ok (maybe National Geographic is a bit too far fetched, but why not try). Do you think Majalah 3 will be biased if the Sarawak issue was brought up? Other stations? Can someone write to the STAR, NSTP as well? Maybe magazines? I am sure each association has its own publication or PR unit, this is where they function.

2. enough lobbying power is made.

please again, if there is a petition, i would love to join in. Maybe we can all try to spam the public complaints service? send endless e-mails or letters. but make sure every email is sound and has content.

we can also try sending emails to Pak Lah and his future replacement. Just send so many emails that they can't refuse not to accept it as an issue. (it's worth a try i think) this i think can be easily organized since we are forumers. we should do something as an online community. maybe educate other forums about the issue (i know Malay forums discussing swiftlets are 100 years backward from the contents here).

3. ability to use abandoned/underutilized lots

if the government's using its head, they'd agree. at least it'll generate some income from that (utilities and taxes).

4. again i remind us all, Malaysia is a biased country

get the bumi associations support. when theres a bumi representation, at least they'd give the other ear as well. the Kedah state showed this i guess, but to what extent the effects is to be seen. i am merely suggesting using this situation for the advantage of the industry.

lets get things rolling before the draft becomes law.

nothing is free. 4k for a lawyers service (shared) is ok.

can anyone share the details of the injunction? the technical details, or even pm me if it is deemed unsuitable to post it publicly. i do have a few corporate lawyer friends, maybe they can give differing opinions and what not. since construction has started, i have some free time to lepak and ask around.

i'm not in the Sarawakian's shoes, but complying would mean giving way to other rules and regulations to be implemented... this is not justice. there are only less than a dozen BH's in the area i'm building, and i have only got to know and entered 1. we might not be facing this sort of problem anytime soon, but any technical loopholes i'd prefer to be prepared. please dear fellow forumers, let us figure a way of solving this predicament.

Again, if there are any petitions, please count me in.

Sorry for barging in again. HM is referring to Pak Henry Mulia? And the Kok is the Harry guy at that blog is it (http://swiftletfarming.blogspot.com/)?

I have read the blog and one book by Pak Hen (memikat jitu). I would like to get my hands on more material by Pak Hen, if anyone can help?

Another author is Drs. Areiff Budiman. His books were so-so since i already read lots of material before coming to his.

What i would really like to get my hands on are on Lim Chan Koon's (a lecturer at FRST, UNIMAS) research papers & publications...... i salivated reading the titles... and even have dreams of reading 'em. Besides what UPM did ages ago (about nutritional components/protein contents of BN), i find it hard to get local research done on BN. I emailed Dr. Lim Chan Koon a long time ago, but no response. Too busy doing research i guess. I really-really strive to understand the fundamentals of this industry, and research papers are the best (if the methodology is correct). Does anyone know where i can get such info?

About the blogger, i read it only with interest of knowing. It really is no harm reading. I believe we can all judge the value of information posted. I wanna comment on the EM, it is good, but i've never heard anyone using it in BH. Actually, anyone can make a concoction of EM, but the ratio and fermenting period may differ. In the 1990's, when introduced in Malaysia, most were imports from Japan. We soon found out that the microbes from Japan, was overwhelmed by local microbes... thus the appearance of locally made ones. Please be careful selecting EM products, some maybe too diluted, some maybe too concentrated. It is better to consult someone familiar in horticulture and agriculture or maybe a microbiologist (its not easy finding one). Making an EM concoction is something like making BOKASHI. It is good for agriculture, but not sure about using it in BH's since the smell is what attracts these birds.

For Moslems, who are not sure, the halal or not halal is not an issue. It is halal and it is 'harus' to eat BN. Please refer to your religious teacher or tok guru for clarification. The nutritional value of BN is simply amazing. Many ulama regularly consume it, and some of them have their own BH's. This includes Tok Guru Haji Hadi & Dato' Dr. Harun Din. As mentioned in the old thread, to those old timers out there, try penetrating the halal market and middle east (if already done, then promote it more)...

This post has been edited by dunsuntutmybuntut: Mar 5 2009, 09:36 PM

Dear West Wing, the reason so is to not allow the opposite side to know whatever tricks the lawyers handling the injunction might have. Lawyers are crafty people and you never know if the state's lawyers are browsing forums for information. I hope you understand what i mean. In other words, we can't just let the state know our hand of cards, until a sure win situation. I'll give an example (that the state can do nothing about even if they get to know), for instance... there might be some overlapping with international conventions on conservation whereas the state must comply to international conventions/agreements/understandings in the spirit of conservation or just plain cruelty against animals. The fact is, the chicks DIE, so do the young birds.

This is where it is important to link with NGO's and international bodies. They may not listen to people like me, but when people like Dr. Lim Chan Koon start writing and communicating, or maybe association leaders, it might just get enough attention. The local media might be biased, but whoever has enough leverage, why not try? Highlight the killings/deaths of the chicks and young birds.


http://www.unep-wcmc.org/
http://www.wcmc.org.uk/
http://www.worldwildlife.org/bsp/bcn/
http://www.arbec.com.my/
http://www.panda.org/
http://www.worldwildlife.org/
http://www.wwf.org.my/
http://www.mns.org.my/
http://www.peta.org/
http://www.cwac.net/wildlife/index.html
http://www.wildlifeprotection.net/
http://www.defenders.org/
http://www.wspa-international.org/

I try giving and thinking of ideas that might help, sorry if it is misunderstood or what i'm trying to say doesn't go thru. Maybe i didn't put it right or clearly enough.

Here's PETA's report site;

http://www.peta.org/about/c-police.asp

Or to e-mail PETA

http://www.peta.org/about/c-email_peta.asp

Maybe throw in a few pictures and get one of the owners of the affected BH to write. Some of them may be against the BH industry, but i believe all of them are against such actions like the Sarawak case. If any of you are able to write and communicate with them in an organised matter, please do so and preferably those involved with the Sarawak case (it is obvious i edited this post over and over as to make myself clear).

Another strategy would be to spam those horrible pictures to other forums plus some details of the situation, making chain emails and lobbying through the www. The world is now connected, we can utilize it freely.



Anyway, read that blog(Kok), realized that maybe MeCD has already considered this as one of the possible poverty eradication programs. Surprisingly, even their financing arms TEKUN & MARA have stopped giving loans to bumi BH venturers. The reason why? Too many failed & they don't have the cash. I know coz now, we're paying from our own pockets and so far failed to secure any financial assistance. Only Agrobank's left as another option (gov scheme).

This post has been edited by dunsuntutmybuntut: Mar 5 2009, 11:46 PM

sorry bumping in again. please comment/kutuk/keji/or whatever about my previous post. i would like to suggest a properly organized internet campaign regarding the problems faced by Sarawak BH owners and the Malaysian industry in general. The main aim is to maintain already inhabited BH's, to go against any acts that will lead to death/stress of swiftlets, highlight the abuse of power of agencies. COme on la, 700++ applications for premise operation but only 2 approved??? Biar betul, nampak sangat something is wrong.

i suggest regular forumers spearhead this campaign, not only to local conservation bodies but also international ones, lobbying to other online communities, forwarding emails explaining the predicament and plain cold blooded murdering of swiftlet chicks & young... zalim. i doubt those chicks taken by the authorities will be treated well or will live. Can anyone repost the pictures from the Mukah tragedy, where baskets of chicks were left out and piled?

(added further this mosrning)

http://images.google.com.my/imgres?imgurl=...t%3D54%26um%3D1

This is titled Cadangan GEM Kepada Pihak Kerajaan Dan Pengusaha Rumah Burung. Basically they have mentioned what we've discussed before.

This post has been edited by dunsuntutmybuntut: Mar 6 2009, 07:29 AM

Dear Ir. Lee,

my 2cents about that lure or birdcall sound... from my limited knowledge and experience, most of them are calls of distress, or danger or warning sounds, which explains why massive numbers of birds come by and swarm around (since they are a colony type of bird) . I believe this sort of sound not only will cause the birds to 'mark' that area as dangerous, but will in the future stay away from the area because of this. I understand they have remarkable homing or tracking instincts... and tend to remember feeding areas, watering areas and most likely 'danger' areas as well.

some use mating sounds, some use baby sounds. i heard there was one sound called 'distress', and as the name implies, it maybe a distress sound (either chicks being squeezed or adults in danger/pain). i personally have not used such sounds since it might lower the possibility of birds passing thru in the long run, this is assuming young birds will initially follow the paths used by older/parent birds initially (i used a friends external sound instead, but it seems even without any calls, there are still birds roving around). it may cause the opposite effect if used for an external sound?

please correct me if i'm wrong.

This post has been edited by dunsuntutmybuntut: Mar 6 2009, 11:55 AM

excellent post ian oh, totally forgot about the human aspect, the owners. that idea should be executed by the leaders of the Sarawak association, in other words make owners have access to legal advice.

(and here i was babbling about international conventions of conservation & cruelty against animals)

Dear Uncle Ben,

So it is true that those are sounds of chicks in distress/pain... if it is true chicks legs are broken... it is plain evil and cruel. If its just recorded from fallen chicks or temporarily removed from nests... it would be acceptable.

Uncle Ben, what about the effects of repeated playing of such sounds? Will the birds mark the area as a danger zone and avoid it in future? What if some very 'dengki' people start playing that sound nearby my BH? would it have effect? I have been wanting to ask this for sometime.

Politics... yes, that can give way to change.

Thanks kuching_farmer, calvinswiftlet & Uncle Ben, about observations and opinions on those distress calls. I was so worried about the long term effects, if any. So if does not cause any deviation of bird routes and does not effect the birds coming to BH's, it should be ok la.

Uncle Ben, C.K. Lim it that UNIMAS researcher??? You know him personally??? I have been an admirer of his work for some years now. Do you know where i can get access to his research papers or publications?

Dear imad and other new enthusiasts, please heed West Wings advice, i too was wandering alone for sometime trying to meet BH owners and finding sifu's. After a year of wandering around meeting people and finally going to a course, only then did i find this forum. All i can say is that this forum is THE forum for serious enthusiasts and BH owners and industry players. What i obtained from this forum, was sufficient enough to screw my consultant good enough so he could not play2 and know i mean business. Other forums (not blogs) are merely cut and paste discussions which do not have sincere and based on experience opinions. Again thanks to the forumers here.

This is a checklist i made, this ones the simple version and may differ a lot from others since each BH may face or have different planning or different approach by contractors..

Checklist

A Assumption
Budget maximum of XXX
loan?
Size of BH 80X30X3 all-in exclusive
COMPLETION BEFORE JUNE 2009

B Construction

1 Authorities
2 Building plan/documentation/draft SPA current
3 Surat Serah Tapak / with letter of authority
4 Land Preparation
JUPEM
surveying, layout
clearing
Temporary water & electricity
soil suitability
5 Site Visit by consultant & contractor
6 Support Letter (certificate GAHP)
7 Loan Application Paperwork & Costing
8 Signing of Agreement (shareholders)
9 TNB draft letter & fill forms when 1st floor finishes
10 JBA draft letter & fill forms
11 Location of workers residence
12 Construction
layout
structure/piling/footing/vent holes/LAL separate list (details)
security - building materials on site
nesting planks
mist & cooling system
entry hole
ventilation & turbulence
fence after building completion
audio system
13 Procurement of (Agri) items
14 Land Preparation (Agri)
15 Work Supervision/Payment Schedule


C Pre-Launch
1 insecticide/pesticide, predator proofing - one week prior to launch
2 placement of fake nests
3 parfum application & guano
4 triple check for rats, cicak
5 final check of mist & cooling system
6 final check of audio system
7 final check of ventilation/T/H/light
8 reapplication of parfum -2 weeks after launch
9 reapplication of parfum & -2 months after launch (ABSOLUTELY NO ENTRY)
assessment of internal environment

D Maintenance
Scheduled Maintenance works
Log book upkeep


The second thing i would like to inform is, there is a difference between walitworld.com & ban-walitworld.com. I just want to mention here not for promotion but to mention that Bina Agro Nusantara Resources has NOTHING to do with Walit World Sdn Bhd (Today, 7/3/09, SINAR, PAGE 11). It is a bit unscrupulous for walitworld.com to be claiming they have a 'pembangunan burung walit bersepadu' at Lukut & Tg. Agas with Bina Agro Nusantara. I am a bit sensitive when it comes to bumi consultants and i like to keep them in check. The reason why, so many bumi's have failed and this has caused financial institutions to shun away from recognizing this industry as a good financial investment. In other words, it was impossible for me to get loans for this first BH... all because of poor management of previous BH's that took loans. Now i have to really feel the hardship like others that started from scratch... wait until good harvesting... show good monthly income... THEN maybe take a loan for a second one. Its all about credit rating.

The second reason why is because most bumi consultants are offering lots/shares of a BH. one example is the PUSHPIAM project. My personal advise is; Stay away from such deals since it does not ensure ownership of the BH/lot/floor. It also does not ensure good management, lets say the contract is for 10 years, they manage A-Z... who the hell can ensure that that c/o will survive for 10 years??? Lets say they make it to 5 years... got lots of nests already... they suddenly change c/o that manages the BH? On whose land? Crazy la this sort of arrangement. Also... lets say got nests... your lot is say 20x20 ft... will you be there to see how many nests are within your lot????? Huh... risky.

I hope other forumers will discuss these stuff with me. Not to condemn but to comment on such schemes and agreements so people who are new don't get trapped or later on menyesal. Since most of them are bumi... it could help reduce the failure rate if proven that some bumi consultants don't deliver. I am concerned about increasing bumi success rate in the industry, and the reason why has been mentioned many times before.

This post has been edited by dunsuntutmybuntut: Mar 7 2009, 11:35 AM

hehe! thanks aieou228. thats why we must point out discrepancies of such arrangements. too many loopholes and the client will pay the price later on. another thing, on paper memang semua nampak cantik... the reality is totally different. the dream of easy financial security sometimes clouds the minds of people, and this includes myself. as pointed out earlier i am far away from being successful like the other forumers here, but i plan to sit among you guys soon (2-3 years) and at least be able to talk on par about technical details or tricks of the trade. maybe compete pricing too!!! >.<

just out of curiosity... has any tauke have experience applying for export permits (special permit) from PERHILITAN? i hear it is not only difficult to get, but also taxable, and many politics involved. Same la like applying for permit of BH operation. Has anyone made complaints with PEMUDAH about this matter? Maybe if we stick together and make an organized online complaint it would make a difference. I still propose the internet campaign against the revised draft guideline. If Uncle Ben, West Wing, aeiou228, Ir. Lee could be able to spearhead and lead, i'm sure other forumers and online community will follow. This is the least an online community can do.

Meaning to say, Sarawak enforces all operation of BH must have a permit, but they somehow gave only 2 out of the 700++ applications? I am assuming this permit is issued and comes under the local council... so far as i know PERHILITAN has no jurisdiction unless when it comes to export and cave nests, am i correct? If this is true... there can be only two main reasons... one, the BH owners do not comply to the conditions made by the local council (if someone can show us the contents of the application form/conditions, it would be nice) or there is abuse of power and someones making money out of what should be a simple shuffle of papers (if someone can prove this it would be superb!!!).

Dear West Wing, i believe your observation fits nicely with the advice a friend gave (which i intend to follow)... to never enter a newly launched BH for at least two months... the birds travel a lot, and as you said, maybe they lepaks for one night... travel... then singgah again... and the next few times becomes familiar and assumes the BH as safe... then they stay. Entering a BH would leave human smell... and signal the BH as unsafe before the shit smells can cover it (i guess la). I also agree that throwing away eggs shouldn't be done. Let nature takes it course, no need to interfere, giving them a 5 star accommodation should be good enough and there's no need to play God and decide the fates of the birds.

This post has been edited by dunsuntutmybuntut: Mar 7 2009, 11:08 PM

Thanks Ir Lee!!! I read it a few times... but since it was made in 2002, there should be some additional points addressing the fiasco in Sarawak and revised draft guideline. Overall, it was a beautiful piece of work that covers the industry. I'm sure the author has forwarded the paper to all the relevant agencies... but from the looks of it, with minimal impact. It there any plans to resubmit together with a memorandum/petition by the association? Again an aggressive campaign may help.

kuching_farmer, do you think it is possible to post the contents of the application form of the license/permit?

The open roof type... i have never entered a BH which uses this... do standalones use this type? What i foresee are problems with rain/water... but i'm sure there are ways owners solve that. would it be suitable for standalones...? i really would like to know. My BH (not finished yet) is located in an area with plantations, lots of trees and most probably flying predators as well. I've seen some sort of helang, but so far no owls. I also am not aware of the nature of these predatory birds... yet. It might help a lot understanding them, like understanding the swiftlets. Know the enemy.

I am a bit in dilemma about the entry holes... the monkey house i have decided to put in the general direction of an open area (an ex-paddy field) that has enough space for the birds to circle. But the exact direction or opening of the entry hole... dunno yet. I was planning to open 2 holes initially... then gradually closing them. Maybe someone has some tips? At least i can bergaduh with the consultant. >.<

I did learn that the external walls should be plastered to prevent climbing animals enter... maybe the 1st floor only should be ok (budget). I was think of maybe putting atap zink around the external wall as well, so biawaks n the sort won't be able to climb. This a friend suggested since the National parks of some other country and possibly Malaysia did this for storks... they wrapped zink/other material around the trunks of trees where birds made nests so predators like biawak and ular can't eat the chicks. But this will look a bit horrible... maybe ugly.

lol, i see. i'll think more than twice since it might decide the fate of my BH. thanks for the advice.

mmm... meaning to say i'll have to stay overnight a few times to observe the presence of owls? I remember when i was in the states (boy scouts) we used to observer owl shits/pellets (mainly fur & bones/indigestible stuff), and if not mistaken the pellets are regurgitated. Not sure about local owls, but maybe i should check out possible perching areas for them. Crap, the BH is in a scary area and the nearest house is about 1km away... have to ajak a friend to teman. Scary. >.<

can anyone recommend a good brand of the electric shock security thing? or recommend a person who is capable of installing it.

This post has been edited by dunsuntutmybuntut: Mar 9 2009, 09:33 PM

nice discussion about humidity, methods to reduce temperature. i too have come upon so many types of humidifiers, pools systems and such. but still will use that mist system (pumps, pipes, timers, hygrostat & valves). i was advised to not use the Korean piping since there were cases of them bursting. still waiting for the quotation.

i did however tell the contractor to maintain building the pools... just in case the mist system faces temporary problems. one reason i didn't want to utilize the pool; as mentioned by many forumers, because of leaks. i have seen some BH with bad leaks.... it's a nightmare. the mist system/sprikler... for one it can be controlled 100% by humans... ensuring that the humidity can be controlled (after researching when, where and how)... and if leaks occur, the damage will be minimal. i'll update regularly once the system has been installed. so far i have seen 4 BH using the same system, so far so good. If anyone knows of problems faced by this system, please share (since normally people will promote only the good side).

Guys, please comment on this;

http://aeroventure.com.my/ver1/index.php?o...id=16&Itemid=29

thanks.

This post has been edited by dunsuntutmybuntut: Mar 12 2009, 02:54 PM

exactly. no real assurance of success, no assurance or surety of good management or even briefing of management... and in the end it does look like a skim cepat kaya or mlm type of business. no offense to the c/o or persons involved but it seems a bit too shady/dodgy. hope those who want to get involved with such a scheme be wary and do proper research. i am just giving advice to be wary of such schemes and to think twice before putting your money in there. no intention of malice (i believe being skeptical is a good thing to do, especially when it involves money).

regarding water source (for swiftlets to drink)... i asked the jcb to dig an artificial kolam sized about 30x30 ft... i have no idea on what length or width would be suitable since i have not observed many swiftlets skimming on water for drinking and wetting their feathers for the chicks... any opinions about this? i did see some clips on you tube, but that is on a sungai or tasik...

This post has been edited by dunsuntutmybuntut: Mar 12 2009, 09:13 PM

Thanks Lucas 1, reminding us about the temperature & humidity.

As i said, my BH is in construction and using material which is relatively new for standalone BH's... supposed to have good insulation properties as well as low thermal conductivity. Before launching the BH, i was planning to take data (temperature, humidity, turbulence...maybe using crude methods unless i get one of those gadgets/data collectors) for 1-2 weeks... and was thinking of modifying the checklist that yenyen gave (http://yenyen-swiftlet-farming.blogspot.com/) to include these variables. like some forumers... i am a believer of science based findings/evidence based... but up till now, i notice these birds sometimes defy even some of the fundamental knowledge of themselves in books... this is further shown by forumers experiences as well. Pening la nak paham these swiftlets, hope i get enough knowledge and wisdom as the other forumers.