The NAV for ICAP is RM1.99 and now being traded in Bursa for RM2.44?

WTF? this counter has been monopolized by syndicates?

Avoid this counter at all cost!

What are you talking about?
NAV for a company?
Are you referring to the NTA?
It is normal for some counters to trade higher than their NTA.
Interests in this counter has increased maybe because they reported much higher profit for Q2.
This is a normal scenario in stock market, so I don't think we need to create such a fuss

For normal listed company, yes, it is a norm for company share price to trade above its NAV or NTA, due to the fact of potential higher earning ahead and good prospect and dividend yield return.

For Closed Ended Fund like ICAP, in theory, no, as closed ended fund they had no businesses, what they do is investing in equities market (can be bond as well). It is identical to UT, so buying a closed ended fund at above its NTA/NAV is not right. It is just like a UT NAV is 1.00, you go out market to buy 1.20, wise?

Their (closed ended fund) NAV is their net worth based on market price of their protfolio (as same as UT). But due to the fact, price is subjected to demand and supply theory so price can go way beyond or below its NAV, which happened on ICAP.

TS has some points, but to tell people avoid this counter at all cost seems a bit exaggorated.

har.. finally the pro responded. No one is stupid enough to pay 40sen premium considering ICAP NAV now is dropping. Avoid this counter and let recession reflect back the true value.

Oh, I did not know it was a "closed-ended fund". My apologies
For me, all of the counters listed on the exchange are closed-ended in nature.
Yes, it may not have a solid business, but take REITS as an example.
They work almost the same, and it is undeniable that price will eventually overtake the NAV/NTA.
Some may only buy when prices are below the book value, but if the company is doing fine, there will still be demand and supply forces that determine the closing price.
Yes I do agree on the point that I will not buy shares in companies with no concrete business above its book value, so in this ICAP case, we are the minority and it depends on people's willingness to take the risk.
As for what TS did, it is too over-rated in my opinion Stock market is there for a reason, and if people like it, they will buy. Too bad we can't ask people not to buy, ain't it

This is just my whole opinion, and it is not meant for flaming. Cheers

I think avoiding this counter at all cost is very funny advise. Investors will never say such a thing. Hardly any good company on KLSE will trade at a discount to its NTA/NAV. I can think of Proton but that is a very shaky company. Protons assets per share is around RM9 whereas it is now trading at about half that value. You will never find well managed stocks like ICAP trading at a discount to their NAV because demand for the stock generally will outstrip supply and thus the price will be higher. However, a stock trading above its NAV isnt a bad buy or being 'monopolised by syndicates'. One has to look at the basket of stocks ICAP holds and see that it has growth potential. If the growth potential is good the who cares if its trading at a slight premium. One cannot have a simplistic view but take an overall view of the stock. Who is managing it? What are its top holdings? What is its past record? What is the general market sentiment? How is global economy doing? I'm sure as an investor, Tan Teng Boo is much more capable than lots of fellows who keep commenting around here.

Check out these articles:
http://klsestockreview.blogspot.com/2008/0...em-on-klse.html
http://www.ahyap.com/blog/icap.php

Tan Teng Boo is a famous fund manager, no doubt his capability on managing funds but he alone cannot control external forces. He's better off than people commenting on forums? well, of course.

How's global economy doing? US is heading into recession and what will happen to our economy in general?

Read ahyap's blog btw. For the price now, it is wise to avoid this counter and enter when the price is right. Paying a whooping 45 sen premium per unit is stupid. Period.

We have to understand that that is the minority's view on it.
Some might think it's stupid (eg you) and some might think it's worth it (eg klsestockreview), so why not we just let the others do the due diligence and let market forces set the price?
I don't see a point of us debating over this, because you have done your job in providing information.
Since everyone will have their own decision at the end, I suggest this thread be closed to avoid unnecessary postings by spammers, with only a few words?
Again, thank you Vv.SoViEt.vV for sharing. We need more people like you to contribute in providind information

Regards

ICAP is a closed ended fund, not a stock or share, bare in mind which is the central point of this thread discussion. Can't use normal stock NTA or NAV issue to compare with NAV issue on closed ended fund. A bit like apple and orange issue.
But to say avoid at all cost seems a bit exxagorated as mentioned.

For eg. (assuming, not real) ICAP is holding Maybank, Pbbank, BAT etc, the total market price or value of those stocks will equal to the ICAP NAV, so if one is paying 20% premium on a closed ended fund, that's means you are buying BAT, Maybank and Pbbank stocks etc that are 20% higher than current market price. So if Pbbank stock now is 11.00, so if one buy a closed ended fund at a 20% premium, it is indirectly equivalent to buy at 13.20 for Pbbank share. So, by right, better off buying through open market of Pbbank share at 11.00, if can. <-- I stated if can because it is a pool of diversification investment like UT as limited fund individual can't have the luxurious to do it. It is as same as UT although one can always invest on their own in stock market, but if one is not rich and limited fund, like several thousand or ten of thousand only, one never able to achieve the diversification like fund does.

As said, since closed ended fund is listed one is subjected to demand and supply issue to determine its daily share price, so some price distortion can be expected. If investors really ike its portfolio structured then due to the demand supply theory, its price can be traded at its above NAV.
But over long run, its price won't run away too much on its fundamental worth aka NAV

No doubt about the professionalism of the ICAP founders and its portfolio.
Just to highlight as part of issue on closed ended fund. Not mean to recommend anything. Judge your own.

This post has been edited by cherroy: Jan 25 2008, 02:00 PM

1) Debate on forum is healthy.

2) If you attempt to express sarcasm on forum I'd suggest you logoff and do something more beneficial than keep on telling moderator to lock thread.

3) Your contribution to this thread discussion is bolded on my quote.

-------------------------

Thread closed due to lose of interest. Again, thanks for cherroy for his contribution. PM him if you wish to reopen this thread.

This post has been edited by Vv.SoViEt.vV: Jan 25 2008, 05:34 PM

If you think that the current market is sustainable at this level and are looking to invest in unit trust, you may want to have a look at ICAP (5108) closed end fund listed on KLSE.

It is a highly regarded fund and has been traded above its NAV most of the time. See chart below.



Only during the heavy selldown in equity markets end of last year, the market price crossed below its NAV.

ICAP closed at RM 1.47 yesterday (13 April 2009) against its latest published NAV of RM 1.59 as on 8 April 2009 (Icap closed at RM 1.44 on 8 April 2009). With the surge in stock market last few days, the NAV could be higher and widen the gap between market price and its NAV.





The above are historical charts how the fund outperformed the KLCI.

The transaction fee for closed end fund (is actually the cost of buying and selling the stock, about 1.2%) is lower than unit trust fund (about 5.5%).

However, closed end fund is less liquid compared to unit trust. Unlike unit trust whereby the fund management company is made compulsory to repurchase the unit, sometimes it is hard for the investors of closed end fund to get buyers at reasonable price and the gap between buyers' price and sellers' price may be more than 1 bid.

My friend like the fund manager Tan Teng Boo so much that he invested in the stock so that he could attend and listen to his market analysis at AGM.

More info at: ICAPITAL

Article from: bla, bla, bla

---

Added on April 17, 2009, 5:00 pmNAV as at 15 April 09 RM 1.63

16 April 09 closing price RM 1.47

KLCI closed slightly higher on 16 April 09. Assume no change in NAV

Current share price RM 1.47 is about 9.8% discount of its NAV

---

Added on August 8, 2009, 6:51 pmsome highlight of Icap AGM

http://ooibenghooi.blogspot.com/2009/08/ic...agm-080809.html

This post has been edited by benghooi: Aug 8 2009, 06:51 PM

the price now below it NAV, will this time break it resistance?

http://cwyeoh-stock.blogspot.com/

Well, 5th anniversary listing of ICAP since 19/10/2005.

For these 5 years ICAP has shown an impressive result of approximately 20% compound interest p. a. One of the top fund in Boleh Land.

Detail as follow:-

Listing on 19/10/2005 NAV = RM 0.99
Today 17/10/2010 NAV = RM 2.45

http://www.icapital.biz/english/

TTB really not disappointing ICAP's shareonwers.

This post has been edited by firee818: Oct 17 2010, 08:21 AM

Its huge discount right now

NAV 2.63
Price 2.14

Can buy now

ICAP's price is lower than its NAV for quite some time now...

It won't go back to premium anymore

May i know why?

ICAP is good, although it has short track record of 5 years..I like where it puts our money into, like petdag. 18%p.a. is impressive to say the least. To say that it will never go back to its premium levels, that's hogwash, the market are irrational and the same cycle of over-exuberance will rear its head. But I can't say when, maybe 9 years from now? Hopefully, it will become somewhat of a Malaysian Berkshire Hathaway...*fingers crossed*

Goody2Shoes, do you subscribe to ICAP's newsletter?

i buy the newsletter

Yeah! I do but the online version. Rm200 only, totally worth it in my opinion but of course doing your homework is critical too. I won't say that I'm good but the newsletter does help together with peter lynch's and benjamin graham's book. That reminds me...I must renew the subscription..almost ended. I recommend ICAP to my friends and family if they want something a counter that they don't want to monitor rigorously

I almost subscribed to the newsletter until i read somewhere someone claimed that TTB lacks integrity. He claimed that TTB stated in ICAP's newsletter that he is bullish on the Malaysian equities, but in the quarterly earnings report found out that TTB had actually disposed off quite a lot of shares. Your comment, guys?

nothing wrong with disposing them. He may be changing to other sectors

There is a conflict of interest involve. He can't advice people to buy while he is disposing. TTB record is good, but, some of his actions has not been honest and thus could not be trusted. I browse through ICAP once when they are making promotion, the material they are providing is a bit misleading.

For those who are interested on the other side of ICAP : http://whereiszemoola.blogspot.com/search/label/iCapital

Yes, that's the blog that i read some time ago! Two words that i remembered moola used is extremely contradictory. Referring to TTB's buy recommendation, but he himself kept disposing shares.

Hi,

Icap break the highest NTA record of 2.66 to 2.68 while KLSE still behind its top at 1580 at Jan 2011.

Buy in Icap if u trust me.

This post has been edited by firee818: Mar 31 2011, 06:42 PM

I am a fan of TTB. I have read whereiszemoola.blogspot and don't really agree with the blogger's thoughts.

On separate matter, Tan Teng Boo is accurate to say no double dip in US economy and he has been shouting investor to buy since Feb 2009. Where as zemoola has been so pessimistic even the indicators suggested other wise. Zemoola posted plenty pessimistic postings, stories about double dip, how serious outflow of fund, etc.

Of course TTB and zemoola are of different class altogether

no much movement

suitable for those mutual fund investor

Disagree that there was no much movement... Double digit average return since inception, outperformed KLCI.

Incorrect to say no movement. The more accurate word would be less volatile.

LOL...how do you know whether Moolah is totally different class than TTB? Have you seen his result? We can't assume that, just because someone like to blow his own trumpet, he has to be the best. I manage to get a copy of ICAP to read, the things in the magazine, it is like a marketing book, making misleading comparison between ICAP and other stocks and saying how good ICAP is. But, I have seen a copy only, not sure whether every single edition is the same, if it is the same, I wonder why would anyone actually buy this newsletter.

Moolah has done a lot of good to retail investors, bringing us the other side of the stories. I did not see anything wrong with that. TTB is bullish, before, during and after the crash. When you always take the same stand, you are bound to be correct.

TTB is wrong to publish one set of recommendation on his newsletter while doing the opposite action on his funds. There is no two ways about it. Let's take away your admiration for TTB and replace ICAP with CIMB, if CIMB analyst is selling his stocks while calling you to buy, won't you feel angry? Now replace that CIMB with TTB..

This post has been edited by the snowball: Mar 31 2011, 10:12 PM

As said in previous posting, TTB has been bullish since Feb 2009 while Moo was so bearish when Down Jones was at 9,200. TTB was right.

Have you read the newsletter by Icapital.biz? If not, how can you know TTB is not better than Moo? Drop by Icap office to get a few copies of the newsletters and read. His research is supported by facts and figures with explanation.

Look at the returns of his investments funds. Looking at long term return, it has been outperforming the benchmark. Don't you agree the returns have been excellent?

Ask moo to have subscription fee based newletters, see how many readers he can get compared to TTB.

Moo telling other side of the stories? Or telling wrong side of the stories?

Which stock did TTB sold when he recommended people to buy?

---

Added on March 31, 2011, 10:59 pmMoo like to criticise TTB for the investment in Mieco and Sweejoo. Not doubt these two counters dragged the performance of the fund, but why Moo were such SHORT-SIGHTED to focus on these two counters. If Moo is objective enough and if he is analytical and fair enough, look at the overall return of the fund please.

Go and read how moo wrongly criticise TTB... How to comment on people's opinion when Moo can't even understand what people trying to express

---

Added on March 31, 2011, 11:00 pmMind to share which material is a bit misleading?

This post has been edited by hpcp: Mar 31 2011, 11:00 PM

Guys, at least you know which side you are on...me lagik teruk. I'm a fan of TTB AND Moola How lar?

I like TTB because his portfolio produced results. That is the main reason to invest, results. And i have to say, ICAP does have excellent performance to show. Moola, on the hand, enlightened me on the (not so good) characteristic side of TTB...which i think is important for investors to evaluate the fund manager. I did not have the opportunity to attend ICAP's AGM, but did read from some other blogs regarding TTB's sarcastic comments during the AGM Q&A. Maybe that guy really have some attitude problems.

Anyone attended the AGM (not in any particular year)? Just to clarify whether it is true...

In one shareholder meeting, a shareholder asked Icapital.biz to pay the parking fees of all those who attended the meeting...

Of course TTB rejected the request and showed his displeasure over the request. Don't you think the request is inappropriate?

The Chairman closed the matter by saying the item is not within the agenda of the meeting and there was thunderous applause from the floor supporting the decision by TTB and the Chairman...

Imagine if TTB has to entertain all this kinds of inappropriate requests/ questions, it would be wasting hundreds of those who attending the meeting...

I did not say who is better than who. I am just saying that without seeing Moolah record, we cannot conclude that TTB is better than Moolah. It is an answer to your allegation that TTB and Moolah is off different class. Please read the comment in the context of your own comment made previously.

I have disclose previously that I have read a copy of ICAP newsletter. I am unimpress with the research. It is more like a marketing book to me. I am not sure that particular edition of ICAP, the June 2010 version is in any way representative of all the ICAP. Please again read properly.

TTB record is good but it does not absolve him from being unethical about some of his stocks recommendation. Does a student with good grades means that by default he earn the right to be a naughty?

On the materials, here you go : http://whereiszemoola.blogspot.com/2008/08...rent-issue.html Read other stuff on ICAP near that date, should touch on similar issue.

This is just not the only issue. There are issues with his global funds. Another blogger- AhYap raise this issue : http://www.ahyap.com/blog/tan-teng-boo.php

Plus the respond from ICapital : http://www.ahyap.com/blog/ttb-performance-fee.php

He did not address the issue head on. He is trying to sounds like he is addressing the issue but in actual fact, it is not. It is a sign that he actually has no respond to the issue.

I think I have explained that... From Moo's bearishness of the market by posting plenty pessimistic postings (double dip, outflow of fund, dry bulk index etc) which market has proven he was totally wrong.

Well... I am not saying 100% but what you and Moo said could be wrong. As we know a fund, may have limited capital. When a fund sells certain stocks, it does NOT mean the counter is not good, but due to limited fund available, the fund has to sell to buy more potential counters... If you do follow Insider Asia Portfolio closely, it is very common to see the Insider Asia sold some stocks when they feel the business prospect of stock is still intact and there should not be huh hah about this.

I don't see any problem selling stocks with buy calls.... It is only a problem when the fund buying those will sell call.

---

Added on April 1, 2011, 12:06 amThe very fundamental, the first chapter of "economy" talks about limited resources... We want everything, but we have limited resource... and therefore we need to utilise the resources wisely...

When there are many good counters to buy, we focus on those top ones... So what's wrong if the fund is switching for more potential stocks?

This post has been edited by hpcp: Apr 1 2011, 12:06 AM

Well, we can't judge someone vis-a-vis another person by just looking at one limited sample of one economic event. In fact, Moolah views is shared by and still shared by a lot of smart hedge fund managers-among them Klarman which Buffett said if he were ever to retire, Klarman would be one of them that he would have chosen to manage his money.

It is absolutely fine that ICapital sell stock to rebalance the portfolio. What is not fine is that, you are doing the opposite thing that you are advising. As stated on the link, he sold off the entire position in some stocks while recommending a hold on his newsletter. Given his fine record, which I do not doubt as it is quite impressive (but certainly not the top 5 in the world as he claims, there are a few equally good or better manager even in Asia itself), a lot of people rely on his recommendation. If he were to put a sell call on the stock at the same time that he is selling, don't you think that he would have to dispose his shares at a lower price given other of his followers are selling? Wouldn't that affect his good record? Wouldn't this lower the NAV of his shares thus his management fees? Would it be fair to the people that rely on his newsletter for advise to receive this sort of treatment?

If TTB feels that the stock is already not worth to hold on to in his funds and sell all his holdings, he should do the same too on his newsletter and recommend a sell rather than a hold. He should direct his newsletter reader to his highest conviction picks. By not recommending a sell on the stock he has sold and not directing the readers to his highest conviction pick, he is (i) making his exit price higher due to the lack of seller and (ii) making his entry price lower due to the lack of buyers. Isn't (i) and (ii) the main gripe of fundmental investors against quant funds as they are front running other investors?

There is a reason why there is a "China Wall" between the fund management industry and the equity research industry, it is to prevent this sort of conflict from happening.

As usual, your view may be different...

Some research house has guidelines whether to have buy call, neutral, sell call... For example, buy call for those having 15% or more return in 1 year, sell call for those expected to drop 15% or more in 1 year time...

Say A stock is expected to give 15% return while stock B 40%. The research will still have buy call for both counters... But the fund manager may sell A to buy B. I see nothing wrong with it...

I don't think stock A shall be rated as "Sell".

Don't you agree?

Hahaha...that kind of Q really has to go to the bin.
Parking fees hehehe...
But if Icapital wants to pay

It has nothing wrong because the fund manager and the research house is a different person and a different entity. Public Mutual and Public Research is independent from each other. What the equity researcher does, do not benefit the fund manager and vice versa.

As illustrated with my point (i) and (ii) previously, the conflicting research report that he publish and the actions he is taking in his funds is boasting his performance and management fees. Since you are a fan of TTB, which stock would you rather buy, the stocks he has sold out or the stock that he just bought?

TTB prides himself in running a concerntrated, high conviction portfolio. When he sells, it is not his high conviction picks anymore. People read his newsletter for his high convictions pick, not a pick that are not in his high conviction pick anymore. In addition, due to the limited fund size of most of his readers (let's face it, very little people can have a USD300mil portfolio), there is lesser need and lesser funds for diversification, ppl need his highest conviction pick, not any pick.

The fact is, TTB is front running his newsletter reader, charging excessive fund management fees on his global funds...

If this sort of thing happen in US, I think SEC would have at least send a letter to question the apparent lack of seperation between their newsletter(advisory) business and their fund management business.

This post has been edited by the snowball: Apr 1 2011, 01:07 AM

If "It has nothing wrong because the fund manager and the research house is a different person and a different entity. Public Mutual and Public Research is independent from each other. What the equity researcher does, do not benefit the fund manager and vice versa.... If this sort of thing happen in US, I think SEC would have at least send a letter to question the apparent lack of seperation between their newsletter(advisory) business and their fund management business."

For you info, the newsletters business and fund management team are run by different group of staff

http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=5108.KL...ource=undefined

i am not sure about the comments that Icap has been good in performance....against the KLSECI its ok....not great.
Many have out performed the KLSECI...its no big deal

But if you look at the performance of Icap since 2006....it has not even revisited its high in 2008 yet!

Whats the big deal?

Even me a small cikku has out done my high in 2008!

Who do you think is the one that is making the buy and call decision? ICapital staff turnover is very high, do you want some inexperience ppl to make those decision? You trust a fresh grad with a buy and sell call? The final decision to buy and sell remains with TTB, not anyone else.

If it is really manage by different group of staff independent of TTB major say, you will be looking into portfolio overlap between the two newsletter, why did ICap newsletter and ICap fund management has so much overlap in portfolio?

No matter how you see it, there is a question of conflict of interest.

hi hpcp and snowball,

There is no point for you guys to argue. Both of you guys have your own views, and i must say, some it's right, and some it's wrong.

Caveat: I'm an ex-ICap staff

This post has been edited by tohff7: Apr 1 2011, 02:05 PM

tohff7,
Which part is wrong, mind to share?

Oh well, here it goes.

Mr. Tan is not front-loading his newsletter readers
Let's get two things clear first. One, every buy and sell decisions for ICap fund management business is done by Mr. Tan himself. Two, buy or sell call by the newsletter advisory is done by his analysts. Of course, he will supervise, but he usually won't change his analysts' recommendation (only once he changed it as far as i was still there).

Why the conflicting calls between the two? Well, the main reason is because you are referring to a not-frequently-updated stock call list. The only time a buy/hold/sell call of a stock is being reviewed is either when; 1) The stock is being featured in the newsletter; or 2) Quarterly reporting. So, when Mr. Tan sell off a particular stock from his ICap fund due to whatever reason, the old recommendation is still there. And no, he never ask his analysts to issue a report or publish a short note subsequently to reflect his disposal. Hence, it appears that he is front loading, but he is not. You are just looking at an outdated stock call list.

Furthermore, there is no target price in their stock call list, simply because there is none in the first place. So you don't even know when a Buy call stock is already overvalued.

And do you guys really believe that the newsletter have the "power" to push up share price of a particular stock? A piece of advice if you really want to use the newsletter to invest. Just look at the paper portfolio in the newsletter and monitor what is the latest purchase or disposal by him. That is his conviction pick (which will usually be what he buy or sell for his actual fund portfolio). Ignore the stock call list and maybe also the company analysis.

Btw, i am the analyst who put a Hold recommendation on Axiata. Previous Buy call was done by other analyst who left the company shortly after i joined. In between the period i joined the company and issuing a report on Axiata, there is this Axiata rights issue and disposal by Mr. Tan (of which, the Buy recommendation was never updated during this period). Will this clear things up?

No "China Wall". In fact, why need "China Wall" at all in the first place in ICap?
To say investment advisory and fund management business is run by different group of staff is half-truth. After all, Mr.Tan is the fund manager, and he is also the head of research.

Mr. Tan have a team of analysts to cover stocks, and the main purpose is now more towards churning out report to fill in the weekly newsletter, rather than finding investment ideas for his fund. This is especially true after majority of his senior analysts left the company. On the fund management side, practically there is no one else except Mr.Tan.

This post has been edited by tohff7: Apr 2 2011, 12:02 AM

Wow, thanks tohff7 for your explanation.

I need some time to reread the whole thread again.

Then maybe come back to ask you some Qs

why ICAP turn over rate of employee is high?

hmm..go to the Job & Careers and see lor...

Whoa, that is one really terrible working environment!

tohff7, guess you guys never been treated to the company's annual dinner la

Suggest Topic description need change to:

ICAP, market price traded below NAV.

1/4/2010 Market price = RM 2.18
NAV = RM 2.68

Now I know where Snowball comes from commenting CD till the job thread.

Haha, this are the few places I visit lo..but I comment here more, but, still not regular though...

Buy in ICAP 5 lots @ RM2.25.
Show bullist trend
Huge discount from NAV

Market price RM 2.25
NAV RM 2.73
Nearly 20% discount.

Or else u miss the boat.

will add more @ 2.20

2.25 is too high for this time

What is the main purpose for Icap to have subscription fee based weekly newsletters?

The weekly magazine 'ICAP' is not belonged to icapital.ibz Berhad, instead it is under the fund management company, i.e. Capital Dynamics, who is the fund manager of icapital.biz Berhad.

I think the main reason of collecting fees for the weekly magazine by Capital Dynamics is to sustain the operation of the magazine since the magazine does not contain any advertisement, except for the advertisements for its own funds icapital.biz, ICAP Global Fund and ICAP Value Fund.

This post has been edited by kinwing: May 13 2011, 06:09 PM

One way for Mr Tan to improve the market price of ICAP is to purchase its own shares. ICAP's issue capital = 140 million. 10% buy back would required 14,000,000 x 2.24 = RM 31,360,000.00.

ICAP has cash in hand amounting to RM 100,000,000 which is sufficient to buy entire 10% own shares without borrowing. Hope Mr. Tan take into this into consideration in next AGM.

Tan had already mentioned unless the discount is very deep like 40% to 50%, or else he won't consider to execute share repurchase. Anyway, i think if discount go up to 30% already can consider to share buy back loh, just a way giving out dividends to shareholders.

Did you guys bought ICAP shares during the 2008 crisis?
My average entry price was RM1.55.
Is it wise to add my position at the current price of RM2+?

Ooo...thanks for your infos.
I have to rephrase my question : What is the main purpose for Capital Dynamics to have a weekly newsletter?

If ICAP fall below its NAV by 40%, I will withdraw my ASW and buy in more. Think that Padini cost RM 0.28, now trading at RM 1.13 with almost 20,000 lots in ICAP's hand, it is worth to let Mr. Tan to manage my fund.

---

Added on May 14, 2011, 12:51 pmHi HJebat,

I bought ICAP way back to year 2006 after 1 year it listing. I m not apply for ICAP listing nor buying after its listing. The main purpose for me to buy after one year is to see the ICAP's performance. My 1st purchase was at the price of RM 1.15, then accumalating over the years, now I m holding quite a few but I m not bother to calculate my average price since I m holding for long-term. My last purchase was 5 lots @ RM 2.25. Will accumulating in future when I have surplus fund.

BTW, I don't bother what Composite Index is moving nor looking at overbuy or oversales. My intention is looking for long-term investment. Till now TTB still not disappointing me.
Maybe this is what Mr. Tan describe as ICAP's shareowner as I just buy/accumulating but never sell till now.

This post has been edited by firee818: May 14 2011, 12:57 PM

Hi fire818,
I share almost a similar strategy with you :
1. long term investment
2. buy & hold

But i can't help but wonder why you left out the price factor?
As for me, although i know i'm going to keep my ICAP for a loooooooong period of time, but i need to measure its performance against other type of investment available to me. Else i wouldn't know how ICAP's capital appreciation fare. So, i always make a comparison between ICAP' price with EPF & ASW's dividend (i'm holding ASW too *high 5* ). Currently, based on my RM1.55 price, EPF & ASW are biting the dust

If the gap between your average entry price & ICAP share price is small, then wouldn't it be better for you to just add position in ASW? An investment with an almost sure 6-7% dividend rate. Wait for another slump, then accumulate ICAP again like no tomorrow...hehe...

Second that.

1). My fund actually divide into two:-

a). Majority at ASW. But, you know ASW is quite hard to buy and another thing is that, in fact I felt that ASW fund's is weird. Have some concern about the operation of ASW.
Let me share with you about ASW, how can a fund maintain at RM 1.00 if KLSE collapse e.g. to 250 points like that in year 1998. If KLSE maintain 250 points for a few year, will ASW's still maintain at RM1.00?????(it is not a gurantee fund but a fixed price fund)..... Maybe I still can't understand the operation of ASW:stars:

b). My view on ICAP is at price of RM 2.XX is still consider as low given the excellent performance of about 20% compound interest from it listing till now. Look at American best fund managed by world 2nd richest man, now the share is stand at US 100,000 per lot. Though we cannot compare orange with apple.

If Parkson wake up, I m sure ICAP NAV easily break though RM 3.00
ICAP holds Parkson 9,000 lots cost RM 2.60 now stand at RM 5.60


This post has been edited by firee818: May 15 2011, 11:48 AM

I share the same concern with you.

Can't figure out how the fund maintain its price at RM1.00.

Did you ask this question in the ASW thread?

NAV reached the highest since listing at 2.78 while share price at 2.24. Therefore, today Icap will go up.

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Added on May 27, 2011, 5:56 amNobody knows the answer, only gomen know. They are genius that can create these unique fund and can only found in Bolehland.

This post has been edited by firee818: May 27 2011, 05:58 AM

haha, most unit trust funds in Bolehland need to show u the NAV, but ASW ones are just like Coke Cola secret formula of making their drinks.

Just my view

This post has been edited by SKY 1809: May 27 2011, 07:57 AM

It should not go up, I have not bought enough

For me, as long as... :
1. ASW has the backing of the gahmen
2. pay consistent 6-7% dividend
3. RM1.00 fixed price is intact
...then it is worth investing.

If the dividend is higher than FD rate & sufficient to cover inflation rate, i will not redeem my units.
But i'll be very wary if PR wins in the next GE

Not need to worry this, take it easy, PR still need rakyat to support them. Rest assured that they will not do any harm to PNB fund holders.

This post has been edited by firee818: May 28 2011, 06:07 AM

u 1 asw die

during bad economy time all ppl sell asw to buy stock

asw dont hv $ to gv out

Well, I think when the economy is really bad, ASW is the best tool in the world to park your money.

Bad time, investors sell stocks to park their money in safe heaven tool, and surely ASW is one of the very few.

Just my view.

u wrong

worst time all bank share price down very low just take a look at bank price during crisis

buy all u can

$ earn from the share will be more than enough compare to u continue put $ at asw which earn 6%/pa

Can't understand your post.

Can elaborate furthur?

maybank 2009 price rm4

u gt 4000

option 1
u invest in maybank
2010 maybank price rm6
2011 maybank price rm8

socai teknik
if u socai put into asb rm4000
2010 asb price rm4000 dividen give u 10% rm4000+400 =rm4400
2011 asb price rm4400 dividen give u 10% rm4400+440 =rm4840

so u wan folow socai rule?

what the heck is socai?

during good economy, keep bullets dry at asw.
during bad economy, firepower will go to stock market.
at the moment, that's the game plan.

There is nothing right or wrong, my opinion is:-

1) "Conservative person" - is the person who sell shares during bad economy and buy in stable fund stock e.g. ASB, ASW and etc

2) " Investing person" - is the person who buy shares during bad economy and sell stable fund stock e.g. ASB, ASW and etc

"Conservative person" may consists of 90% and the remaining 10% are "Investing person". Good example are Warren Buffet, TTB (ICAP's Boss) and Mnet. This explain why only 10% of person can make profit from stock market.

My 2 cents only!

This post has been edited by firee818: May 29 2011, 12:21 PM

a teknik name for example RSI,MACD etc

Hi, Parkson has up for 3 consecutive days and stand at RM5.96 with 30,000 lots(small). The resistance is at RM 6.00. If cross-over this resistance, then Parkson may has a bullist trend. Watch out!

This is the thing that everyone always debate. However, when all share price plunge, you would not dare to enter so soon, because you are worry of catching the falling knife. I am sure not so many people will keep going in and averaging down until out of bullet. There are many people who suffer the consequences of buying shares when the economy is real bad. You won't know whether it is the bottom, or still gonna go down more, and how long the economy takes to recover? 1 year? 2 years? 10 years? We never know. It is always easier to say than done, what's more after a crisis when we know it has been recovering.....then we will see a lot of people say, wow...if I bought Maybank, CIMB etc, now already millionaire.

I agree.
It's very difficult/impossible to predict the bottom & there's no need to find it either. So, the next best thing to do is to find a solid company [hopefully ICAP is & will always be] & average down until run out of bullets (but not those pile of cash for emergency purposes).

Icap is not a company.
Icap is a closed ended fund.
Please be minded.

Icap underlying or fundamental is about its share holding aka share portfolio.
Icap doesn't run as a business.

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Added on June 11, 2011, 10:50 amTell to those bought Lehman, Citi, BofA.


This post has been edited by cherroy: Jun 11 2011, 10:50 AM

Ok, correction...So, the next best thing to do is to find a solid fund [hopefully ICAP is & will always be] & average down until run out of bullets.

What factors should we consider before putting money in closed-end fund like iCap, other than NAV?

Is dividend important? AFAIK, iCap hasn't given any dividend yet.

err.. how about factors like lelong/value in the sense of (current market price / NAPS)?
eg. say market price is $0.75 & NAPS is $1, thus there is a discount of 25%.
The next Q would at what discount would it be worthwhile to buy-in

Like what bro Gark puts it earlier somewhere (hehe sorry ar Gark, forgot where lar) - "it's like buying stocks at last time's prices", assuming last time most stocks crashed and now it's up. I like time travelling with stats . Remember - ICAP holds stocks as its assets.


Personally, for me it's a minimum of 25% discount.
BTW, i was aiming for similar discount for CIMBC25 hehe - saw the market price $ lower than NAPS by about 17%+ earlier but it has reduced now
Ya ya, that's an ETF.
Just similar thoughts on discount / lelong buying thinking, applicable to most stocks, REITs and even physical properties too mar.

This post has been edited by wongmunkeong: Aug 1 2012, 05:25 PM

Icap is a closed end fund, there will be no dividend until the shareholders argees to dissolve & delist the fund. Those getting for quick gain might be dissapointed and have to wait for the longer term, that is why it is not so popular.

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Added on August 1, 2012, 5:31 pmLast time I bought, the gap is about 37%, once the gap closed off, I have already disposed of the share and made a bundle. Not interested to go in again unless the gap widens once more. For CIMBC25, CIMB acts as market maker, so it is impossible to have a 17% gap. If it does quickly buy as the bank will have to buy back from you at NAV.

This post has been edited by gark: Aug 1 2012, 05:31 PM

impossible meh CIMBS25
see attached screenshot - currently the market price and NAPS difference is about 13.3%.
Last month or two ago, i saw it hitting 17%+ difference wor
or i'm looking at the wrong NAPS and LAST PRICE hehe (i've it on Excel daily EOD, that's how i saw 17%+ variance)

holy crap.. 37% gap?!!
U must have made a killing there boss

impossible meh CIMBS25
see attached screenshot - currently the market price and NAPS difference is about 13.3%.
Last month or two ago, i saw it hitting 17%+ difference wor
or i'm looking at the wrong NAPS and LAST PRICE hehe (i've it on Excel daily EOD, that's how i saw 17%+ variance)


This post has been edited by wongmunkeong: Aug 1 2012, 05:37 PM

Thanks

No dividends? So it completely depends on whether somebody is willing to buy my shares at higher price. Then I must think carefully before entering

Thanks for your input, now i know. So it's ZERO HOPE for icap to one day gives dividend because of the closed end fund nature.
In past 1 year+, I've been constantly monitoring icap. The gap has been between 22-27%.

And ya, you are correct. I also constantly monitoring cimbc25, it hardly has a gap more than 1% in everyday closing price.