Worse - it's RM2.93 for Jul 26 based on http://www.bursamalaysia.com/market/listed...cements/1021109
Yesterday closed at RM2.23
Thus, there's a 20%+ difference (i'm discounting in case Mr TTB had some sell transactions )

Yup, straight away "profit" statistically
However, effectively, someone has to value and willing to pay holder of shares the "proper market" / NAV value before that profit can be unlocked.
There, just like your Gold horde 

Yar U can buy it up but the "release" / sell portion and whether your buyer is willing to pay NAV or more is the key to the profit here.
ICAP's NAV is made up of its holding value of stocks & cash, and based on that its NAV may be $2.xx but say (EXAMPLE ONLY AR) if everyone in the market (and their mothers) hates TTB, and no one's willing to touch his closed ended-fund, how lar to unlock the "intrinsic value profits"?

It's like if i'm the only one who values it, buys it then forced to sell it later.. but NO ONE wants to touch it with a 10 foot pole unless at half-priced lelong, hangus lar saya unless i have the holding power.

Heheh - DELIST? ok sorry i think i missed that.
Yeah, U'd make a quick 20%+ killing. Realistically though, TTB may come have a word with U first heheh.

Boss, U've a working crystal ball ar?
Heheh take a look.

http://turtleinvestor888.blogspot.com/2012...al-deja-vu.html
SUNDAY, AUGUST 5, 2012

iCapital. Deja Vu?
As of Aug 4, 2012, iCapital closed end fund was selling for RM 2.30 but NAV was RM 3.01, represents a discount of almost 24%. As of May 30, 2012, iCapital has net asset of RM 400 million and almost RM 133 millions are in cash. Investors may be sceptical that it can maintain its high elevated level.

The fund has never declare any dividend since it was launch in October 2005. In a few months time, the fund will be getting almost 7years. Using the market price around first week of October of every calender since it was listed we all can see that all the capital gain was in the first 2 years and return was practically non existent since 2008.

There are some interesting developments since last year with emergence of two foreign funds. One of them is  City of London Investment Management Company LTD with initial interest of 5.26% in November 2011 and increased their holding to almost 6.2% as of July 31, 2012. The other fund is Lexey Partners Limited with initial interest of 5.92%. They started buying some time April 2012.

What Lexey Partners did reminded me of of a closed-end fund Amanah Millenia fund. That fund was forced to closed in 2007 after in existence of 10 years. Lexey Partners bought an initial interests of 5.05% with almost 29% discount to its NAV. After the initial interest, they kept buying until it reached 16.2% and forced it to close.

Amanah Millenia was way under-performing at that time in terms of NAV with 21.9% gains only over a period of 10 years while iCapital managed to improve its NAV over time of almost 3 times.

The question is will iCapital face a similar fate? Will this time be different with City of London Investment and Lexey Partners already accumulated combined interests of 12.7%.

Many of closed end funds in listed in NYSE actually paying dividend regularly. Many of closed end funds sweetened their investors with generous dividend to compensate for the discount to NAV.

Having foreign funds buying is a good news to current holders and certainly adding pressures to its fund manager. The mentality of foreign funds are very different from small holders will just wait patiently hoping something will happen. They will make things happen and it will be a big dent to TTB's pride if his fund get liquidated!

Hehhe - i don't know about "we", i'm already holding since late Dec/early Jan 

My exit criteria are either:
1. Trailing Stop Loss hit
2. Less than 6% CAGR if held for more than 1 year
3. hehhe, now new probability if City of London OR Lexey Partners does the buy out and delist general offer

Not familiar with closed ended fund prospectus set.

Can a closed ended fund being liquidate?

Since share price is discount to NAV >20%.
Bought all the share in the market, having total control stake in the fund, then liquidate all the portfolio share at NAV, since can gain 20% out of it. 

Recently there are already substantial shareholders... both the same entity and combined already command 12%... so these new shareholders will want to pressure for unlocking some value.. but depend on how TTB will resist. These substantial shareholders will first want to get a seat at the board, even if you hold many % but no board seat also no use as you can't propose resolution. 

The more dividend given out, TTB will lose more income as he charges 1.5% of NAV as management fee.  That is why he does not give out dividend, he is stuck as a closed end fund cannot receive new capital hence cannot grow it's AUM  like most mutual funds, if want to earn more, TTB have to increase the NAV. By giving out dividend the NAV will shrink accordingly, hence pay cut for TTB. 

Even giving out dividend, it may be merely 3-4%. (3-4% is considered high dividend already).

And 1.5% of the 3-4%, just a small sum difference only. If a fund is 300 million, (3% of 300 million mean 9 million. 1.5% of 9 million is only 135k only)

But with the consistency of pay out of dividend (from the dividend received from the fund),
it may change drastically investors confidence and willingness to own the fund, hence may be better pricing for the closed ended fund.
I knew, market price doesn't affect the manager fee, as better market pricing or worst pricing, do not alter the NAV,
but confidence on the fund by investors is invaluable, and open up more opportunity to set up another closed end fund which can attract more investors,
eventually manager can earn more and better off with managing 2 funds or even more.

What's the point of telling an investor, that his/her fund value has increased in paper, yet did not receive any dividend, nor capital appreciation (as there is always discount of market price vs its NAV, current situation).

As minority has only 2 source to earn or make a profit
1. Dividend
2. Capital appreciation through market price.

So if 1) is not available
then only left 2).
If 2) is mis-pricing due to lack of willingness of buyer in the market.

Then what a minority investors can do?

TTB has previously declared himself warren buffett of Malaysia.  He did proclaim that he wants the closed end fund to mimic berkshire hattaway's investment stratergy. So yes, that means he will not pay out dividend. But... BK is trading above book value.. while Icap is trading below... so is both fund same kah? Looks like investors does not have a lot of confidence on TTB. 

that's the flaw for ICAP, no matter bull or bear market, he still earn that fee
actually it should be the percentage on how much wealth he created for the shareholder.

Basically my suggestion is:-
year 2008 NAV is RM1, year 2009 NAV is RM1.50
His management fee should be calculated on RM0.50 which he earn for the shareholder, let say RM0.05 (10%) would be his management fee, and to protect his interest during bear market, a mininum of RM500k is guarantee management fee.

Wong Sifu,

It is Time to start yr own Cap Fund  which can generate 50% return a year or more.

No point to criticize  others because each of us have different risk levels.

Often it is Easy to tembak a conservative and lower risk fund for not performing ?

And there are many good earning companies out there trading well below their NTA , nothing is wrong, except u may want to sapu more than  to be a Nato.

Regards

I am saying good earning cum low NTA or Price/Book like Affin.

U just break two and talk separately , where got meaning one

Not necessary one, Capital Repayments could benefit shareholders for high NTA stocks.

Could be special dividends too if cashflow allows.

I hope more people would think like the ways u think.

If like reits  where everyone knows inside out , than susah for some of us to cari makan.

Regards

It is highly speculative to say "One is using this to enlarge his wealth by fleecing in fees". So could I say you are a SOB because I think you are so fcuked up in your mind or you are a gay/bi-sex because I think you speak like one?

When Warren Buffet first setup his fund management partnerships, he charged fees even more gao like hedge fund, and worse Warren Buffet asked his partners to shut up from keep asking him what was the components and performance of his investment portfolio.

Make sense, for ordinary investors, they can't make 18% cumulative growth p.a., so the reservation of cash(instead of dividend) in ICAP to let uncle Tan to manage is wiser than to invest themselves.

Investors always have a choice, if they don't satisfy with the ICAP performance, they can sell the shares and invest themselves. Investment is about long-term.

With around 18% cumulative growth, ICAP is still considered as one of the best fund in the world. Not to forget ICAP still has substantial bullet of around RM 120 million cash to invest in case of stock crash.

Interesting part is that the issuing capital of ICAP is RM140 million, but it has RM120 million cash, in other word, almost all the  IPO fund from the public is now reserve in the bank to standby for investment.

This performance also coincidence with the TTB's simulate investment portfolio return.

My brother, we use NAV (net asset value= RM3.04) for calculating the cumulative growth.
Here is a simple calculation,

ICAP listed on Oct 2005.

So, calculate in 18% cumulatively,

Oct 2005 RM 1.00
Oct 2006 RM 1.18
Oct 2007 RM 1.39
Oct 2008 RM 1.64
Oct 2009 RM 1.94
Oct 2010 RM 2.29
Oct 2011 RM 2.70
Aug 2012 RM 3.04 <----We are here, my brother
Oct 2012 RM 3.19

The value you used is market value, it cannot be used as a computation as it is affected by market/people sentiment.

I think TTB is lucky to have launched ICAP just before the bull run in 2005. Whether he can replicate the success going forward is unknown. Talking about historical performance, cumulative growth of 18% in 7 years is very different from 30 years. My bet is that he has only a very slim chance to do it. He isn't doing very well in his international funds the last I looked.

For investment to be successful, chairman/the ownership of the co/Managing Director(the person who control this co)  is the primary factor to be considered on.

If this/these person(s) is/are honest, then the money in the co will be managed to the benefit of all the shareholders(TTB called them share owners). He/She/They will distribute all the funds in the company to all the shareholders at a suitable time.

Do u trust TTB?
If no, then ICAP is not your cup of tea.

BTW, initially when ICAP first applied for IPO , the co(ICAP) has NOTHING but it sells  TTB's investment philosophy only and Bursa Malaysia approved ICAP listing because Bursa Malaysia 'trusts"  TTB.

The computation I used is based on average and NOT solely for particular years.