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 LYN Christian Fellowship V14 (Group)

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yaokb
post Sep 14 2019, 12:37 PM

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QUOTE(prophetjul @ Sep 14 2019, 08:38 AM)
As i have mentioned to you, heaven is not the purpose of faith in God. Its a consequence that you are only focussing on.
To the Jew, faith is the now, on earth. Our faith is messih Jesus is for living and being light in this dark world, and reflecting His glory.

Works is not required for salvation. Faith in Messiah Jesus is.
Yet Faith encompasses works. Therefore Faith demands works. That is the understanding of faith (Aman) by Jews and explained by James.


Remember James pointed to the faith of devils too. This is ungodly faith. i guess it does not save?
*
QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Sep 14 2019, 09:00 AM)
Of course I'm talking about the end result and no where did I suggest Faith is not in the living now.
We need to establish correctly how you get Salvation which is by faith in Christ and by God's Grace which is the Gospel at the core because if we don't, the rest will be faulty. That is why knowing the consequence is important. The bible says those who have this hope, purifies himself. (1 John 3:3)

You're just too negative of your view of what I say and what I believe in, that is the problem.

That leads You to always think I'm always suggesting disobedience or suggest licentious lifestyle.

Haih prophetjul.

So that settles it, What you're talking is what I'm talking.

I've always strongly preach that Faith in Christ is what saves us, not works. So whether you have enough work, lack of it, fallen short, at the end of the day we ALL still appeal to Christ,
NEVER our works. With that being said.......

The works or the fruits are the work of God so we should not preach Me Me Me I I I need to do this or that, We need to preach God, IE CHRIST because only God is able to change the person. Else we can't really work out our Salvation. There is no way.

The focus of this has been WRONG all the while. We keep preaching you must repent, YOU must work, YOU must show fruit..when we should be preaching Look to Christ the person who IS GRACE that is the root and power of life so that repentance can come. That is the Gospel IMO.
*
Psalm 133 King James Version (KJV)
133 Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

2 It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments;

3 As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the Lord commanded the blessing, even life for evermore.


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post Sep 15 2019, 05:24 PM

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QUOTE(yaokb @ Sep 12 2019, 08:34 PM)
What does the scripture say?

John 3 King James Version (KJV)
3 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
2  Corinthians 5

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
It is clear from the above verses that Jesus Himself declared the we must be born again in the Spirit.
And when we are born again in the Spirit, Paul declares we are a new creation.

But the question remains.

How is one born again?

I think Paul made it plain in Acts 16

Acts 16:25-40 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Philippian Jailer Saved
25 But at midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them. 26 Suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken; and immediately all the doors were opened and everyone’s chains were loosed. 27 And the keeper of the prison, awaking from sleep and seeing the prison doors open, supposing the prisoners had fled, drew his sword and was about to kill himself. 28 But Paul called with a loud voice, saying, “Do yourself no harm, for we are all here.”

29 Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

*
Its definately much more than just believe, as stated in the above Acts, brother. 😊
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post Sep 15 2019, 05:30 PM

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QUOTE(thomasthai @ Sep 12 2019, 08:21 PM)
Let me ask you, did you cause your own physical birth?
*
Bro,

Of course not. What I was trying to imply with that was, if only all of us was born again of the Spirit of God, there would be much rejoicing. 😊
pehkay
post Sep 15 2019, 06:09 PM

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Praise the Lord! Hallelujah! XD
thomasthai
post Sep 16 2019, 07:19 AM

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QUOTE(Roman Catholic @ Sep 15 2019, 05:30 PM)
Bro,

Of course not. What I was trying to imply with that was, if only all of us was born again of the Spirit of God, there would be much rejoicing. 😊
*
Of course, but back to your original question on how to be born again, the answer is you can't.

Just as you did not caused anything for your physical birth, you cannot cause anything for your spiritual birth. God does that.

It is the Holy Spirit's ministry to cause regeneration.
thomasthai
post Sep 16 2019, 08:40 AM

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I think the bottom line of the discussion between prophetjul and unknownwarrior is not on salvation, (we all agree that salvation is based on the merits of Christ, not our own, ie our works), but the doctrine of sanctification.

Or more specifically, who causes a believer's sanctification?

To fail to recognise justification and sanctification, we will end up messing up the gospel itself, like what happened to the catholic church.

When we try to sanctify ourselves by our own might, we will always tend to impugn the finished works of Christ, and we will fall into thinking that we are doing anything to contribute to our salvation.

QUOTE
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.  Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Romans 8:28‭-‬30 KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/rom.8.28-30.KJV


This has been called the golden chain of salvation. We see that salvation is predestinated, initiated, and completed by God. No one takes credit for his salvation, and no salvation will lost by anyone.

What about sanctification? How and who does it? Let's look at a helpful illustration by our Lord himself.

QUOTE
After that, He poured water into a basin and began to wash the disciples’ feet, and to wipe them with the towel with which He was girded. Then He came to Simon Peter. And Peter said to Him, “Lord, are You washing my feet?” Jesus answered and said to him, “What I am doing you do not understand now, but you will know after this.” Peter said to Him, “You shall never wash my feet!” Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.” Simon Peter said to Him, “Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head!” Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.”
John 13:5‭-‬10 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/jhn.13.5-10.NKJV


What is this washing of feet by Jesus that Peter did not understand that time?

Break it down into points:
1) All who have taken a bath is already clean
2) There's some dirt that have been picked up by the feet, only needs their feet cleaned.
3) Jesus does the cleaning.
4) Who they do not let Jesus clean them, they have to part in Him.

This is an illustration by Jesus sanctifying His believers. Jesus Himself does the cleaning. It doesn't mean that they have lost their salvation when they picked up some dirt with their feet.

So how does Jesus sanctify His believers?

QUOTE
Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.
John 17:17 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/jhn.17.17.NKJV


We are sanctified by the Word of God. Only when we know His word, the Holy Spirit can do His ministry of sanctification.

Or in humanly words, the Spirit binds our conscience with the truth, and gives us the internal restraint to refrain from the works of the flesh.

QUOTE
But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.
II Corinthians 3:18 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/2co.3.18.NKJV
QUOTE
Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
Galatians 3:3 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/gal.3.3.NKJV


QUOTE
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Galatians 5:16‭-‬18 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/gal.5.16-18.NKJV


QUOTE
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
Colossians 3:16 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/col.3.16.NKJV


Jesus sanctifies the believers when they dwell in His word and walk in the Spirit.

There are much more that can be said, I'll save it for next time.

May the peace of the Lord be with us all.
thomasthai
post Sep 16 2019, 08:58 AM

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In the modern evangelical churches, sound expositional preaching of the Word has been replaced by experience, feel good sermons, motivation talks, lovey dovey messages.

The preaching of the Word is where believers should sit under and is a main channel of sanctification.

Believers are drinking kool aid instead of real food of the Word.

That's one of the greatest grieve I have for these churches today.

This post has been edited by thomasthai: Sep 16 2019, 09:05 AM
pehkay
post Sep 16 2019, 09:40 AM

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Just to add <wink>

1 Cor 1:30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became wisdom to us from God: both righteousness and sanctification and redemption

Christ Himself is our sanctification. We can have sanctification only after we have Christ, and we can have the fruit of sanctification only after we have Christ. Our sanctification is a living person—Christ. Christ is our sanctification. The personified sanctification is realized in the Person of Christ coming to us as our enjoyment and experience.



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post Sep 16 2019, 11:18 AM

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QUOTE(thomasthai @ Sep 16 2019, 07:19 AM)
Of course, but back to your original question on how to be born again, the answer is you can't.

Just as you did not caused anything for your physical birth, you cannot cause anything for your spiritual birth. God does that.

It is the Holy Spirit's ministry to cause regeneration.
*
Bro.,

You are correct, it is our Almighty God who gives His Spirit to whomever He wishes and pleases, just like the wind.

However before that happens, we must prove ourselves to be worthy of His Holy Spirit by the full repentance from our hearts and once a student has completed the training, one is ready to do the will of God, good works all for His glory.
SUSTheRant
post Sep 16 2019, 11:20 AM

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QUOTE(thomasthai @ Sep 16 2019, 08:58 AM)
In the modern evangelical churches, sound expositional preaching of the Word has been replaced by experience, feel good sermons, motivation talks, lovey dovey messages.

The preaching of the Word is where believers should sit under and is a main channel of sanctification.

Believers are drinking kool aid instead of real food of the Word.

That's one of the greatest grieve I have for these churches today.
*
Just curious. Is the real food of the Word perfect? Or the food of the word is not perfect.

So the "food of the Word" contains this text?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.biblegatew...V&interface=amp

With the footnotes as such?
1 Timothy 3:16 Greek Who; some manuscripts God; others Which

Just curious.

What is the difference between
[B[God[/B] was manifest in the flesh
Versus
[B/He[/B][a] was manifested in the flesh,
Versus
Who was manifest in the flesh
Versus
[B]Which[/B[ was manifest in the flesh

So the ESV cannot even identify the entity that is manifest in the flesh?

So tell me. How have you really benefited from the "food of the Word " then. And I dun mean from the pastor or any other sources but directly from the "food of the Word".

Because if you are only hearing from second hand sources, it's no better then what those guys are experiencing.

Do you even search the scriptures like the bereans do or you just assume whatever the authority figure tell you is true.

Be honest.

This post has been edited by TheRant: Sep 16 2019, 12:11 PM
SUSTheRant
post Sep 16 2019, 11:56 AM

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QUOTE(thomasthai @ Sep 16 2019, 08:58 AM)
In the modern evangelical churches, sound expositional preaching of the Word has been replaced by experience, feel good sermons, motivation talks, lovey dovey messages.

The preaching of the Word is where believers should sit under and is a main channel of sanctification.

Believers are drinking kool aid instead of real food of the Word.

That's one of the greatest grieve I have for these churches today.
*
While we are on it,
Is there a differences between those 2 passages.
KJV
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

ESV
5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,[a] 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,[b] 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant,[c] being born in the likeness of men.

Are you sure they both passages preaches the same doctrine as you claim?

So the Jesus could not even understand why He is God. Does it make sense?

But of course, ESV is the better version right?

How about you answer those questions first. So that at least I "know" which is the "word of God" I should follow.

By the way. Is "made himself of no reputation" the same thing as "emptied himself"

What does "emptied himsellf" actually mean? Do you know in Yoga meditation, people actually "emptied themself"

So should I go and do Yoga meditation then.

The Bible supports "Yoga meditation"?

Maybe before criticizing other churches, one should look at one owns self right?

This post has been edited by TheRant: Sep 16 2019, 12:03 PM
KLthinker91
post Sep 16 2019, 12:03 PM

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From: Cherasboy
QUOTE(Roman Catholic @ Sep 16 2019, 11:18 AM)
However before that happens, we must prove ourselves to be worthy of His Holy Spirit by the full repentance from our hearts and once a student has completed the training, one is ready to do the will of God, good works all for His glory.
*
Why can't you both be right?

Fact: we know there is salvation through belief and repentance alone. Jesus said so himself to the thief on the cross.

Fact: we know there are works to be done in the world, we have a duty. Amongst many other writings, Jesus said, give away (actually, invest) what you have, it is easier for a camel than a rich man... you know the rest.

Above all things I believe God is not stupid. He would know where is the limit of one's ability to act on one's faith. He would know if one who does many good deeds is truly a believer or not. His knowledge is not bounded by space-time, he would know before we do ourselves what our future acts will be. He would even know what the potential acts of people would be - maybe that's how children and those who have never heard the Word are judged.

The first shall be last and the last shall be first. We think we know who is who now, but there will certainly be many surprises when we meet again in heaven. God is not mocked. Actions are all we can see, but he sees the heart.

Hence why I respectfully disagree with bolded above.

Happy Malaysia day to all my fellow Christians, may God bless you in all that you are

This post has been edited by KLthinker91: Sep 16 2019, 12:03 PM
SUSTheRant
post Sep 16 2019, 01:28 PM

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QUOTE(thomasthai @ Sep 16 2019, 08:40 AM)
I think the bottom line of the discussion between prophetjul and unknownwarrior is not on salvation, (we all agree that salvation is based on the merits of Christ, not our own, ie our works), but the doctrine of sanctification.

Or more specifically, who causes a believer's sanctification?

To fail to recognise justification and sanctification, we will end up messing up the gospel itself, like what happened to the catholic church.

When we try to sanctify ourselves by our own might, we will always tend to impugn the finished works of Christ, and we will fall into thinking that we are doing anything to contribute to our salvation.
This has been called the golden chain of salvation. We see that salvation is predestinated, initiated, and completed by God. No one takes credit for his salvation, and no salvation will lost by anyone.

What about sanctification? How and who does it? Let's look at a helpful illustration by our Lord himself.
What is this washing of feet by Jesus that Peter did not understand that time?

Break it down into points:
1) All who have taken a bath is already clean
2) There's some dirt that have been picked up by the feet, only needs their feet cleaned.
3) Jesus does the cleaning.
4) Who they do not let Jesus clean them, they have to part in Him.

This is an illustration by Jesus sanctifying His believers. Jesus Himself does the cleaning. It doesn't mean that they have lost their salvation when they picked up some dirt with their feet.

So how does Jesus sanctify His believers?
We are sanctified by the Word of God. Only when we know His word, the Holy Spirit can do His ministry of sanctification.

Or in humanly words, the Spirit binds our conscience with the truth, and gives us the internal restraint to refrain from the works of the flesh.
Jesus sanctifies the believers when they dwell in His word and walk in the Spirit.

There are much more that can be said, I'll save it for next time.

May the peace of the Lord be with us all.
*
Anyway. What you have written looks good. You are on the right track by using the kjb and the "nkjb". But there is a reason why ppl are still using the kjb despite the "nkjb" is the easier to read version. You can easily find out by yourself.

Anyway just to share this with you.
http://www.av1611.org/nkjv.html

Just to let you know. There is a difference between being saved and is saved. Being saved is a process. Is saved means saved at the instant. The newer version says being saved including NKJV. KJV says are saved. You decide for yourself which is more "acceptable"

https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/1-18.htm

Anyway I apologize for the above post but then it does serve as a reference for the others.

This post has been edited by TheRant: Sep 16 2019, 02:22 PM
alexkos
post Sep 16 2019, 07:24 PM

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QUOTE(TheRant @ Sep 16 2019, 01:28 PM)
Anyway. What you have written looks good. You are on the right track by using the kjb and the "nkjb". But there is a reason why ppl are still using the kjb despite the "nkjb" is the easier to read version. You can easily find out by yourself.

Anyway just to share this with you.
http://www.av1611.org/nkjv.html

Just to let  you know. There is a difference between being saved and is saved. Being saved is a process. Is saved means saved at the instant. The newer version says being saved including NKJV. KJV says are saved. You decide for yourself which is more "acceptable"

https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/1-18.htm

Anyway I apologize for the above post but then it does serve as a reference for the others.
*
hehe, add one more, 'will be saved'.

welcome to soteriology.
SUSTheRant
post Sep 16 2019, 07:38 PM

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QUOTE(alexkos @ Sep 16 2019, 07:24 PM)
hehe, add one more, 'will be saved'.

welcome to soteriology.
*
Actually. Not that difficult once you humble yourself and study carefully.
alexkos
post Sep 16 2019, 07:45 PM

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that's true. Without humility, no Christian will spend his willpower to dig into Scripture. He will be a know-it-all.
alexkos
post Sep 16 2019, 07:46 PM

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btw since you say soteriology is easy, may i ask on your stance on the doctrine of grace. What's your position?
alexkos
post Sep 16 2019, 08:05 PM

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hmm....ok.... let me ask more, just want to make sure on your understanding on salvation.

When you said repentance, does it mean cooperation of sinner with divine grace in order to achieve salvation? When you say repentance, what does it mean?
SUSTheRant
post Sep 16 2019, 11:45 PM

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QUOTE(alexkos @ Sep 16 2019, 08:05 PM)
hmm....ok.... let me ask more, just want to make sure on your understanding on salvation.

When you said repentance, does it mean cooperation of sinner with divine grace in order to achieve salvation? When you say repentance, what does it mean?
*
Repentence is just a recognition that you are a, sinner and that there is nothing you can do to save yourself. It's also feeling sorrow for your sins. Like the example I gave you. Of course I believe that there is grace involved in repentence because only God can change the heart of someone.

Actually in Korea, when someone shows repentence, their sentence is reduced. I mean what is so difficult about repentence. It's just feeling sorry for the sins or crime you made and the desire to not do them. If unbelievers know this why believers find it so hard to understand?

The verse that speak about this is Jesus saying that He come to bring sinners to repentence. Obviously in this context. It means turning from your sins towards Him.

The thing about most church is. They think that just by saying the sinners prayer that person is saved. But they forget that repentence is the most important component. Actually this is the reason why Jesus come in the first place. You see. If you still remain in your sins, then what is the purpose of Jesus death. In fact when you say the sinner prayer, you admit that you are a sinner. But then if you dun realize the severity of your sins and feel sorrow at all for your sins and understand that you probably deserve to die for your sins, then what are you praying for. Jesus did not come for the health but for the sick.if you are healthy, would you need Jesus?

That's the thing. A mere profession does nothing. In fact it's dangerous because it makes someone thinks he is a Christian when he is not.

That is why I dun even know when I was actually saved. I know that I probably made a falae profession many years back but I know there is a point when I truly repented because I can see God working in my life

This post has been edited by TheRant: Sep 16 2019, 11:45 PM
alexkos
post Sep 17 2019, 12:00 AM

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Alright, we'll just move on first.

Do you think assurance of salvation is a legitimate teaching taught by scripture? referring to your last sentence.

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