You said

"I am saying FAITH in Jesus leads to the kingdom and ultimately heaven, which you like"

I didn't see the word works in there, am I correct?

So just to confirm one more time, does

1. Faith in Christ alone qualify to kingdom and ultimate heaven or

2. Faith + Works both needed to qualify to kingdom and ultimately Heaven?


1 or 2?

I am waiting as well.

But I am pretty sure he will not give an answer. He will be using his "delay" tactics.

Not trying to suck up to you btw. Because to be honest, you have more chance then him if you know what i mean.

This post has been edited by TheRant: Sep 13 2019, 04:39 PM

The irony. He said that the other person is in dangerous straits because of his "refreshing" stand. Yet he himself is in danger as well.

there YOU GO AGAIN. Separating Faith from works. Are you reading ok? Faith and works are a binary, for the last time.

Faith is bounded with works.

The devils believe(faith) and do not have works. They do not have living faith in Jesus.

Think that is clear enough.

Now, go and explain James 2.

This post has been edited by prophetjul: Sep 13 2019, 04:40 PM

So I guess answer is No.2 then. Yes?

Your answers are too simple.

Its faith in Jesus that leads to the kingdom. And I do subscribe to splitting Faith vs works as its a binary in the Jewish understanding.

And therefore James explains as such.

There you go.

Now he says your answer is too simple.

While I can agree what you're tying to imply, this Faith + Work is not really a straight forward answer but it can be.

No where in the book of James 2 teaches us that dead works leads to disqualification to heaven.

it teaches us that it leads to the phrase worthless or unprofitable, KJV uses the word dead. Meaning unprofitable Christian lives or defeated life vs a victorious one.

The difference is in there.

Else to say Works is require for Salvation would make Ephesians 2:8-9 to be not true.

For the phrase in verse 10 of the same chapter

10.For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.

tell us we are indeed created to do good works, we are designed for it and yet doesn't mean lack of it disqualify us to Salvation.

That's the thing. Now I know why despite having similar beliefs, seems that we cannot get along. We never had the same belief all these while. And yes, he will be judged by his works

Absolutely not. Even each and every Protestant group has their own 'tradition' to interpret Scripture, e.g. of Penance, the Eucharist, salvation by faith, “independence” or Bible-only. When a Baptist reads of baptism in the NT, they automatically interpret it as being adult baptism. When a Methodist reads of the Church in scripture, they interpret it as the entire believing community. They may use different parts of Scripture to allude to their interpretation, but not all of Scripture, and certainly not in harmony with the early Christians.

Funny.
I thought someone mentioned a while ago that scripture interpreting scripture is a Jewish tradition and that we as "ordinary mortals" cannot do that.

That's the thing. You speak with both sides of your mouth really.
Post #1037

Just manage to reread your post while I was scanning.

Sprinkling is not very doctrinal if you even understand what does baptism signify.

It seems to me that both of you are actually on the same page.

is PJ basically saying that works are the fruits of true faith?
(James 2)

is UW is saying even if works does not appear, salvation is assured?

can both be correct, under the right circumstances?

PJ, are u saying,
Faith is the seed.
Works are the fruits
Works must manifest, given time, if the faith is genuine?


UW, What if a person professes faith but chooses to continue in his old ways, actually refusing to yield to the Holy Spirit and be transformed, is that "faith" real?

When I put all this together, i see a clearer picture between faith and works.

It explains the thief on the cross ( Luke 23 )
It explains Paul and James seemingly differing viewpoints
it even explains Jesus' parable on the fig tree (Luke 13)

And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, so that "'they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.'" And he said to them, "Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? The sower sows the word. And these are the ones along the path, where the word is sown: when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word that is sown in them. And these are the ones sown on rocky ground: the ones who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy. And they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away. And others are the ones sown among thorns. They are those who hear the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. But those that were sown on the good soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold." And he said to them, "Is a lamp brought in to be put under a basket, or under a bed, and not on a stand? For nothing is hidden except to be made manifest; nor is anything secret except to come to light. If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear." And he said to them, "Pay attention to what you hear: with the measure you use, it will be measured to you, and still more will be added to you. For to the one who has, more will be given, and from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away."
Mark 4:10‭-‬25 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/mrk.4.10-25.ESV

As i have mentioned to you, heaven is not the purpose of faith in God. Its a consequence that you are only focussing on.
To the Jew, faith is the now, on earth. Our faith is messih Jesus is for living and being light in this dark world, and reflecting His glory.

Works is not required for salvation. Faith in Messiah Jesus is.
Yet Faith encompasses works. Therefore Faith demands works. That is the understanding of faith (Aman) by Jews and explained by James.

Remember James pointed to the faith of devils too. This is ungodly faith. i guess it does not save?

Speaking of harmony with the faith of the early Jewish Christians based upon God's instructions, i can probably list at least 10 RCC transgressions against God's will!
So NO, RCC does not represent the original traditions passed down by the apostles. No where near. In fact RCC exhibits more paganism traits than others.

Similarly, as you described the bias to certain parts of scriptures, the RCC is bias to making Mary a god.

Let us remember that Eve wanted to be as god! Are you making one?

The thing is this. The understanding of faith in a Jewish context is the same for Paul as for James. Faith and works is a binary, inseparable.
The problem arises in the modern teaching faith vs works. There is no such thing. This is a Greek understanding of faith(Pisteuo) which does not reflect the Jewish
faith, Aman. Greeks are honed on literature, philosophies, punchlines. Greco thinking is the basis of modern worldview.
The church has been conditioned with Sola Fide of Luther. A Greek approach.

OTOH the Jewish worldview action speaks louder than words. Faith is not a declaration or punchline. It is ACTION.

For God so loved the world, He GAVE His son......

Its about action. They see what God does, they follow in obedience. THAT is faith.

So even in Paul's epistles faith is described together with the acts



Imagine Abraham at 100 years, did not ACT! Yet he acted on his faith in God. Faith is not a thought of a punchline.
It is an act.

Therefore

Of course I'm talking about the end result and no where did I suggest Faith is not in the living now.
We need to establish correctly how you get Salvation which is by faith in Christ and by God's Grace which is the Gospel at the core because if we don't, the rest will be faulty. That is why knowing the consequence is important. The bible says those who have this hope, purifies himself. (1 John 3:3)

You're just too negative of your view of what I say and what I believe in, that is the problem.

That leads You to always think I'm always suggesting disobedience or suggest licentious lifestyle.

Haih prophetjul.

So that settles it, What you're talking is what I'm talking.

I've always strongly preach that Faith in Christ is what saves us, not works. So whether you have enough work, lack of it, fallen short, at the end of the day we ALL still appeal to Christ,
NEVER our works. With that being said.......

The works or the fruits are the work of God so we should not preach Me Me Me I I I need to do this or that, We need to preach God, IE CHRIST because only God is able to change the person. Else we can't really work out our Salvation. There is no way.

The focus of this has been WRONG all the while. We keep preaching you must repent, YOU must work, YOU must show fruit..when we should be preaching Look to Christ the person who IS GRACE that is the root and power of life so that repentance can come. That is the Gospel IMO.



This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Sep 14 2019, 09:46 AM

You'll be surprise to hear me say this.

It is not our business to insist on a person, his or her fruits must manifest, given time. Why?

Because that is God's work ( In essence we are also demanding unto God. Think about it) and it causes us to judge the person.

What if the person professes Faith but choose not to repent? Then I'll say the person have never really understood what Christianity is all about.