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 [Home Appliances] Water Filter/Purifier Thread V2, Drinking Water Treatment System

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cuber
post May 19 2018, 03:46 AM

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QUOTE(hestati @ May 17 2018, 09:35 PM)
Wow, why this thread is dead? After GE everyone's water suddenly improved )))?

I am preparing easy guides on how to choose best water filter (no, it will not just sell Fresca), will post it here as well once ready.

PoE also will be ready soon, there are few changes, but will present it here too (again, just present, not try give a sales pitch).

P.S. signature is still glowing red even though I removed all <color> tags...
*
Whatever guide you provide, if it's based on table of comparison, I'm not sure that is convincing enough. I myself don't know anything about water quality, I'm just blindly trusting the NSF labels.

Let's take for example, your Fresca is not certified by NSF, but the filters inside are from NSF certified brands. However you can't stated blatantly that the Fresca is NSF certified water filter.

Older generation simple thinking, whatever you filter with your water, still boil to drink it, whether the water is filtered or not. As long as the water doesn't smell, boil is enough.

I don't know, but I think if there is a device to simply test the water quality of pre-filter vs filtered water vs any competitive brands of water filters, that would make things clear and easy to make any decision.
But is there any device to do that?

If there is a device that could test a water quality, you don't need to do any guide, just simply show them the test result on the spot.
hestati
post May 19 2018, 05:08 AM

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QUOTE(cuber @ May 19 2018, 03:46 AM)
Whatever guide you provide, if it's based on table of comparison, I'm not sure that is convincing enough. I myself don't know anything about water quality, I'm just blindly trusting the NSF labels.

Let's take for example, your Fresca is not certified by NSF, but the filters inside are from NSF certified brands. However you can't stated blatantly that the Fresca is NSF certified water filter.

Older generation simple thinking, whatever you filter with your water, still boil to drink it, whether the water is filtered or not. As long as the water doesn't smell, boil is enough.

I don't know, but I think if there is a device to simply test the water quality of pre-filter vs filtered water vs any competitive brands of water filters, that would make things clear and easy to make any decision.
But is there any device to do that?

If there is a device that could test a water quality, you don't need to do any guide, just simply show them the test result on the spot.
*
Just few points, I never mentioned that Fresca as a system is NSF certified, but all components are NSF certified.

But NSF certification doesn't tell you much if you don't know what filter can or can't do. For instance, take Easy Complete by 3M, good system, NSF and all, but it doesn't filter bacteria. Take Aquaphor, no NSF, but it does filter bacteria.

And NSF, while it's pretty much the only reputable certification out there, it's not perfect. Problem is that NSF is not quality control system. I always repeat the same story of RO tank we tried to manufacture in China for the previous company I worked for. We got it NSF certified, however some batches of the tank were giving terrible smell to water. We narrowed it down to raw material variances and pulled out of China completely, but if company hadn't decide to do so, who knows how quickly NSF would catch it? Maybe never.

For the independent test, yes it can be done, but here's the issue: what kind of input water to consider? Regular tap water? Not the best idea. Test for every contaminant? Ok, can be done, this is what is done in California, but it's costly, especially if done for many systems. I guess what I can do is to contaminate water with bacteria, lead, cyst, chlorine and pass through various filters, compare the result. But even then, this is when they are new, what happens after 6 months of usage, repeat the test?

P.S. the guide will not tell whether to choose Aquaphor or 3M, it will help to choose between say RO system or UF system, assuming that both systems are made of good components. Meaning it will tell the difference within classes of systems rather than brands.
Jason
post May 19 2018, 07:49 PM

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QUOTE(hestati @ May 17 2018, 09:35 PM)
Wow, why this thread is dead? After GE everyone's water suddenly improved )))?

I am preparing easy guides on how to choose best water filter (no, it will not just sell Fresca), will post it here as well once ready.

PoE also will be ready soon, there are few changes, but will present it here too (again, just present, not try give a sales pitch).

P.S. signature is still glowing red even though I removed all <color> tags...
*
Question. Is it accurate to say that adding a sediment pre-filter to the Waterco Finsbury under sink filter, it is equivalent to your Fresca filter setup?

https://www.waterco.com.au/water-treatment/...ifiers/finsbury

The only reason I would not consider your solution is that I prefer a quick change setup, like Aquaphor.

Are you looking into a version 2 with the convenience feature?

I’m looking for POE and POU for my new home. Goal is to drink straight from the tap.

This post has been edited by Jason: May 19 2018, 07:55 PM
cuber
post May 19 2018, 08:25 PM

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QUOTE(hestati @ May 19 2018, 05:08 AM)
Just few points, I never mentioned that Fresca as a system is NSF certified, but all components are NSF certified.

But NSF certification doesn't tell you much if you don't know what filter can or can't do. For instance, take Easy Complete by 3M, good system, NSF and all, but it doesn't filter bacteria. Take Aquaphor, no NSF, but it does filter bacteria.

And NSF, while it's pretty much the only reputable certification out there, it's not perfect. Problem is that NSF is not quality control system. I always repeat the same story of RO tank we tried to manufacture in China for the previous company I worked for. We got it NSF certified, however some batches of the tank were giving terrible smell to water. We narrowed it down to raw material variances and pulled out of China completely, but if company hadn't decide to do so, who knows how quickly NSF would catch it? Maybe never.

For the independent test, yes it can be done, but here's the issue: what kind of input water to consider? Regular tap water? Not the best idea. Test for every contaminant? Ok, can be done, this is what is done in California, but it's costly, especially if done for many systems. I guess what I can do is to contaminate water with bacteria, lead, cyst, chlorine and pass through various filters, compare the result. But even then, this is when they are new, what happens after 6 months of usage, repeat the test?

P.S. the guide will not tell whether to choose Aquaphor or 3M, it will help to choose between say RO system or UF system, assuming that both systems are made of good components. Meaning it will tell the difference within classes of systems rather than brands.
*
Exactly my point, you can't state that Fresca is NSF certified, but all the components are.


All will be back to the purpose of the water filter, what is the main purpose, if it is only to filter the sediment or rust from the water source, then I believe the sediment filter on the POE is enough.


For me, the main purpose is, I want to drink straight from the tap, and my setup is having 3M AP902 as POE and Espring as POU. This is the only way I can skip the boiling and confident enough to drink from the Espring faucet directly. This is the best setup out there available from 3-4 years ago, because I also learn this from this exact thread 4 years ago.

If you ask me, is this actually safe, I don't know, I blindly trust the NSF certified 3M AP902 and Espring. However I never had my water tested, whether it is safe to drink or not, is there anyway to test the quality of the water coming out from the Espring faucet?

And you could also compare the quality of the water of the direct boiling, I believe this will be a very convincing way to prove that water filter is indeed important and which water filter is actually doing what they are supposed to do.
hestati
post May 19 2018, 09:10 PM

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QUOTE(Jason @ May 19 2018, 07:49 PM)
Question. Is it accurate to say that adding a sediment pre-filter to the Waterco Finsbury under sink filter, it is equivalent to your Fresca filter setup?

https://www.waterco.com.au/water-treatment/...ifiers/finsbury

The only reason I would not consider your solution is that I prefer a quick change setup, like Aquaphor.

Are you looking into a version 2 with the convenience feature?

I’m looking for POE and POU for my new home. Goal is to drink straight from the tap.
*
In terms of functionality, probably yes. In terms of quality of components, not sure where this filter is made and from what components.

If I ever introduce convenient version, it definitely will not be made from USA components, 99% that it will be made in China, and then having non NSF system made in China is risky and not worth it from marketing point of view. It will not be upgradable, will not be washable and will not be universal components and cartridges. In other words, it will be Aquaphor #2 with only benefit of virus protection and added difficulty of marketing non NSF system with non NSF components.

Why don't you consider Aquaphor? With PoE, Aquaphor doesn't even require pre-filter. It's just a question, not trying to influence your decision

This post has been edited by hestati: May 19 2018, 09:11 PM
hestati
post May 20 2018, 01:46 PM

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As promised, here's the guide. I know that most people in this thread are advanced and have a lot of knowledge, so it's not so useful for you, rather it is written for general public. If you have any comments, suggested corrections or some questions, please let me know, I will fix the guide tables accordingly.

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «
Jason
post May 21 2018, 12:07 AM

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QUOTE(hestati @ May 20 2018, 01:46 PM)
As promised, here's the guide. I know that most people in this thread are advanced and have a lot of knowledge, so it's not so useful for you, rather it is written for general public. If you have any comments, suggested corrections or some questions, please let me know, I will fix the guide tables accordingly.

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

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How is virus present in water, when it is chlorinated? I remember reading chlorine is very effective at disinfecting virus and bacteria in water.

And yes I am considering the Aquaphor Crystal Eco as well. From reading this thread your Disruptor stage can be added to it as well?

This post has been edited by Jason: May 21 2018, 12:07 AM
hestati
post May 21 2018, 02:26 PM

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QUOTE(Jason @ May 21 2018, 12:07 AM)
How is virus present in water, when it is chlorinated? I remember reading chlorine is very effective at disinfecting virus and bacteria in water.

And yes I am considering the Aquaphor Crystal Eco as well. From reading this thread your Disruptor stage can be added to it as well?
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Chlorine is very effective in pure water. Meaning that if you have say only H20 and chlorine, then it, in theory, will kill 99.99999% bacteria and viruses. However, the more impurities you have in water, less effective is chlorine. Assuming that water is clean at the treatment facility, so it leaves it as chlorinated, bacteria free. It then goes through pipes, tanks etc where it catches impurities and possibly bacteria/viruses that chlorine cannot fully eliminate anymore. In addition, there are now micro organisms that are resistant to chlorine. So USA for example, being paranoid, started using chloramine, which is very nasty thing and I'd actually call it poison (unlike chlorine which is harmless at small doses). Hope other countries will not follow with chloramine (it's actually banned in European Union).

So yes, chlorine helps, but it doesn't offer 100% protection. Every glass of tap water has lots of bacteria, just that not all of them are harmful. If your filter can't filter bacteria/viruses, better boil the water.

UV faces the same problem. UV light can kill all bacteria in water if water is pure. More impurities, less effective is UV light. This is why UV is mainly used as post RO treatment of relatively pure water coming from water tank (where bacteria can grow).


As for Fresca stage in addition to Aquaphor, it can be done, but it's a bit of waste of money and duplicating UF with Disruptor. Any reason why you wouldn't want to do Fresca Disruptor only, or say 3M C-Complete/FF-Cyst (will have them soon) + Disruptor? Or say Quantum Disinfection (also will be available soon). Just a question smile.gif
Jason
post May 22 2018, 11:04 AM

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QUOTE(hestati @ May 21 2018, 02:26 PM)
Chlorine is very effective in pure water. Meaning that if you have say only H20 and chlorine, then it, in theory, will kill 99.99999% bacteria and viruses. However, the more impurities you have in water, less effective is chlorine. Assuming that water is clean at the treatment facility, so it leaves it as chlorinated, bacteria free. It then goes through pipes, tanks etc where it catches impurities and possibly bacteria/viruses that chlorine cannot fully eliminate anymore. In addition, there are now micro organisms that are resistant to chlorine. So USA for example, being paranoid, started using chloramine, which is very nasty thing and I'd actually call it poison (unlike chlorine which is harmless at small doses). Hope other countries will not follow with chloramine (it's actually banned in European Union).

So yes, chlorine helps, but it doesn't offer 100% protection. Every glass of tap water has lots of bacteria, just that not all of them are harmful. If your filter can't filter bacteria/viruses, better boil the water.

UV faces the same problem. UV light can kill all bacteria in water if water is pure. More impurities, less effective is UV light. This is why UV is mainly used as post RO treatment of relatively pure water coming from water tank (where bacteria can grow).
As for Fresca stage in addition to Aquaphor, it can be done, but it's a bit of waste of money and duplicating UF with Disruptor. Any reason why you wouldn't want to do Fresca Disruptor only, or say 3M C-Complete/FF-Cyst (will have them soon) + Disruptor? Or say Quantum Disinfection (also will be available soon). Just a question smile.gif
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I backtracked to one of your older posts in here, regarding RO.

I've decided I'll just bite the bullet and get RO. Still cheaper than eSpring.

Now I'm looking for NSF certified 20" big blue POE filter, seems nobody is selling the Pentek 150233 in Malaysia. As it is for long term use, and everyday under the sun, not sure if non-NSF certified ones are safe, as the sun may cause the material/enclosure to break down and leech into the water, I would not know better.

You know anywhere to get the Pentek? Or do you intend to carry it?
hestati
post May 22 2018, 05:01 PM

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QUOTE(Jason @ May 22 2018, 11:04 AM)
I backtracked to one of your older posts in here, regarding RO.

I've decided I'll just bite the bullet and get RO. Still cheaper than eSpring.

Now I'm looking for NSF certified 20" big blue POE filter, seems nobody is selling the Pentek 150233 in Malaysia. As it is for long term use, and everyday under the sun, not sure if non-NSF certified ones are safe, as the sun may cause the material/enclosure to break down and leech into the water, I would not know better.

You know anywhere to get the Pentek? Or do you intend to carry it?
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This could be a good opportunity to present the PoE...

In fact, I was considering bringing PoE based on Pentek. I thought that would be great. But I changed my mind and it was not price related at all, in fact, Pentek housings are slightly cheaper than what I'm bringing now. The thing is...

Pentek used to make these in Mexico, they were of great quality, best housings out there. Now, they are all made in China since about 5 years. Not only the moved production to China, but it seems they simply outsourced it (meaning probably not even Pentek factory makes them), because the design changed so much that old filter head would not fit new design.

I got 2 of these as a sample and tried to install and it's real pain in the butt. You need to use tons, tons of food grade silicone for it not to leak through the seal and to keep this stupid o-ring in the tiny groove. You need to tighten it so much that it almost cracks. Once installed and after trying it 50 times, it seems ok, but imagine that down the line you will need to wash the cartridge or change it, so again, open it, tons of silicone grease, fighting with the o-ring. I had pictures somewhere, if I find it, will post it, there you can see how stupid the o-ring is. I though I'm the only one with this issue, but it seems everyone is facing that with new design (just read their Amazon reviews for instance, even professionals are struggling to make it water tight).

I gave up and instead got double o-ring housing from Taiwan. The quality of these housings is outstanding, day and night compared to Pentek. And because of double o-ring, they are easy to maintain and do not require 1/2 kilo of grease. Coupled with 5 micron pleated polyester filter and pressure gauges, I believe this is the best package out there, so we placed an order. Got first few of 20" and they are sold out, installing last one this Saturday... I have 1 10" left for condo though. Next, larger batch is coming by the end of the month, but we may have an order for 50 to be installed at the new development right away, this is to be confirmed.

As for NSF, I really believe it doesn't matter for PoE for residential applications, what matters is that they don't leak. PoE is not for drinking water anyway. PoU will take care of plastic leaching even if it happens. And even Pentek, as far as I know it's rated NSF for cold water (up to 37.7 degrees, which is 100 Farenheit). If your housing is 12 hours under direct sun, water inside is probably above 40 degrees. In any case, it is made of reinforced, UV resistant polypropylene, and it is chemically stable up to 100C degrees.

The only reason Pentek has NSF is because in some states (California, Nevada etc) everything that is commercial food/water related (restaurants, bakery etc) must have everything NSF certified. Even knifes, forks and cutting boards are NSF. So you can run your business without any filter, it's allowed, but if you install non NSF housing even as PoE, even if you say it's for toilet flushing, they will give you a fine.

So in short, what I offer is:

Made in Taiwan high quality PoE
- 10" for condo, 20" for landed (499RM and 699RM respectively, the whole set)
- double o-ring leak proof design for ease of cleaning/replacing the cartridge
- 2 pressure gauges to be installed before and after, to show when to change/wash filter
- 5 micron pleated polyester cartridge filter, 100% synthetic with no binding material
- washable cartridge, expected life is 2-3 years (depends once again, mainly on iron)
- mounting bracket included

Basically it is 3M AP902, 1/2 price and with longer cartridge life AND indicator gauges AND available in condo configuration. The pics are again, under the spoiler. As usual, any questions, please let me know.

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «
chowkh
post May 22 2018, 10:32 PM

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Hi Hestati,

There are now many POE filters in the market, some of them are claimed to be using UF single-pore membrane that can filter up to 0.01 micron and there is a newer one that is using multi-pore member.

In your opinion, for POE (and assuming one already has a good POU), is it an overkill to filter down to 0.01 micron and if so, what are the reasons? Would a 5 micron filter be good enough?


hestati
post May 24 2018, 01:12 PM

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QUOTE(chowkh @ May 22 2018, 10:32 PM)
Hi Hestati,

There are now many POE filters in the market, some of them are claimed to be using UF single-pore membrane that can filter up to 0.01 micron and there is a newer one that is using multi-pore member.

In your opinion, for POE (and assuming one already has a good POU), is it an overkill to filter down to 0.01 micron and if so, what are the reasons? Would a 5 micron filter be good enough?
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Oh, these membranes... I can't judge the quality, but logic says that quality UF membrane of this size in stainless steel housing should cost at least x3.

But ok, let's assume that this is a miracle cheap product that actually works as advertised and is of same quality as Toray/CSM membranes (impossible, but let's assume for a second). Placing membrane exposed to raw tap water is a very bad idea because of membrane fouling.

These membranes work in crossflow, just like RO membranes. You have permeate (good water) pushed through membrane, and concentrate (bad water) flowing past, carrying away SOME of impurities. (So for every 1L of water you get, you waste few L of water.) But some impurities are still deposited on membrane surface, blocking the pores of the membrane, degrading it performance and significantly increasing the amount of water it is wasting.

But what can you do about it? Some industrial membranes are backwashable (you cannot just backwash any membrane, it must be designed for it). Other membranes are soaked in chemicals (acids or concentrated chlorine), then thoroughly rinsed. But either is not the case for these advertised membranes, so they get fouled and performance degrades rather quickly if you do not have any pre filters and the membrane is exposed to all the dirt in the water. Besides degraded performance, bacteria starts growing inside the membrane. It cannot get through, but this media starts producing gases and these get through membrane with no issue.

To summarize, these membranes are (assuming they work as advertised):
- waste water
- degrade quickly by fouling and waste even more water
- start producing smelly water once bacteria starts growing

Now, reasonable question would be "what about Aquaphor, it has UF inside, right?" Correct, Aquaphor has what is called dead end flow UF membrane, so no wasted water. In theory, It gets fouled quicker than crossflow membranes, however Aquaphor has pre filters down to 0.5 micron prior to membrabe to take care of most impurities. Bacteria still make it to the membrane and start growing inside, producing gases, this is why Aquaphor has a post carbon filter, to remove the smell.

So are those UF PoE bad idea? Yes if they are exposed to raw flow. Can you make them efficient? Yes, by using pre filters and post filters. But even in that case, even you can somehow prevent fouling by using pre filters, you are wasting few L of water for every clean L produced.

Hope this helps.

This post has been edited by hestati: May 24 2018, 01:15 PM
WhitE LighteR
post May 27 2018, 12:36 PM

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QUOTE(hestati @ May 24 2018, 01:12 PM)
Oh, these membranes... I can't judge the quality, but logic says that quality UF membrane of this size in stainless steel housing should cost at least x3.

But ok, let's assume that this is a miracle cheap product that actually works as advertised and is of same quality as Toray/CSM membranes (impossible, but let's assume for a second). Placing membrane exposed to raw tap water is a very bad idea because of membrane fouling.

These membranes work in crossflow, just like RO membranes. You have permeate (good water) pushed through membrane, and concentrate (bad water) flowing past, carrying away SOME of impurities. (So for every 1L of water you get, you waste few L of water.) But some impurities are still deposited on membrane surface, blocking the pores of the membrane, degrading it performance and significantly increasing the amount of water it is wasting.

But what can you do about it? Some industrial membranes are backwashable (you cannot just backwash any membrane, it must be designed for it). Other membranes are soaked in chemicals (acids or concentrated chlorine), then thoroughly rinsed. But either is not the case for these advertised membranes, so they get fouled and performance degrades rather quickly if you do not have any pre filters and the membrane is exposed to all the dirt in the water. Besides degraded performance, bacteria starts growing inside the membrane. It cannot get through, but this media starts producing gases and these get through membrane with no issue.

To summarize, these membranes are (assuming they work as advertised):
- waste water
- degrade quickly by fouling and waste even more water
- start producing smelly water once bacteria starts growing

Now, reasonable question would be "what about Aquaphor, it has UF inside, right?" Correct, Aquaphor has what is called dead end flow UF membrane, so no wasted water. In theory, It gets fouled quicker than crossflow membranes, however Aquaphor has pre filters down to 0.5 micron prior to membrabe to take care of most impurities. Bacteria still make it to the membrane and start growing inside, producing gases, this is why Aquaphor has a post carbon filter, to remove the smell.

So are those UF PoE bad idea? Yes if they are exposed to raw flow. Can you make them efficient? Yes, by using pre filters and post filters. But even in that case, even you can somehow prevent fouling by using pre filters, you are wasting few L of water for every clean L produced.

Hope this helps.
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How about this kind?

https://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?act=ST&f=220&t=4270613
hestati
post May 28 2018, 11:46 AM

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QUOTE(WhitE LighteR @ May 27 2018, 12:36 PM)
This is sold by a member of LYN and to be honest, I tried to search for multipore UF membrane, couldn't find anything at all. Maybe the seller would be in the better position to explain how it works, how is it different from normal membrane and how does it solve the problem of membrane fouling, the ratio of permeate vs. concentrate and so on
blackie19
post May 30 2018, 11:32 AM

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Hello, is PoE system a must if we install PoU system?
Jason
post May 30 2018, 11:47 AM

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QUOTE(hestati @ May 24 2018, 01:12 PM)
Oh, these membranes... I can't judge the quality, but logic says that quality UF membrane of this size in stainless steel housing should cost at least x3.

But ok, let's assume that this is a miracle cheap product that actually works as advertised and is of same quality as Toray/CSM membranes (impossible, but let's assume for a second). Placing membrane exposed to raw tap water is a very bad idea because of membrane fouling.

These membranes work in crossflow, just like RO membranes. You have permeate (good water) pushed through membrane, and concentrate (bad water) flowing past, carrying away SOME of impurities. (So for every 1L of water you get, you waste few L of water.) But some impurities are still deposited on membrane surface, blocking the pores of the membrane, degrading it performance and significantly increasing the amount of water it is wasting.

But what can you do about it? Some industrial membranes are backwashable (you cannot just backwash any membrane, it must be designed for it). Other membranes are soaked in chemicals (acids or concentrated chlorine), then thoroughly rinsed. But either is not the case for these advertised membranes, so they get fouled and performance degrades rather quickly if you do not have any pre filters and the membrane is exposed to all the dirt in the water. Besides degraded performance, bacteria starts growing inside the membrane. It cannot get through, but this media starts producing gases and these get through membrane with no issue.

To summarize, these membranes are (assuming they work as advertised):
- waste water
- degrade quickly by fouling and waste even more water
- start producing smelly water once bacteria starts growing

Now, reasonable question would be "what about Aquaphor, it has UF inside, right?" Correct, Aquaphor has what is called dead end flow UF membrane, so no wasted water. In theory, It gets fouled quicker than crossflow membranes, however Aquaphor has pre filters down to 0.5 micron prior to membrabe to take care of most impurities. Bacteria still make it to the membrane and start growing inside, producing gases, this is why Aquaphor has a post carbon filter, to remove the smell.

So are those UF PoE bad idea? Yes if they are exposed to raw flow. Can you make them efficient? Yes, by using pre filters and post filters. But even in that case, even you can somehow prevent fouling by using pre filters, you are wasting few L of water for every clean L produced.

Hope this helps.
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Wait, so you're saying those POE outdoor UF membrane filter has a "waste water" like RO? I thought those were just for back flushing purposes.
Jason
post May 30 2018, 11:48 AM

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QUOTE(blackie19 @ May 30 2018, 11:32 AM)
Hello, is PoE system a must if we install PoU system?
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No, but your PoU filter will clog very fast, especially PoU for drinking purposes. If its shower PoU probably don't have to bother.

If you do not want to use a PoE filter, you can put a pre-filter before your PoU system.

This post has been edited by Jason: May 30 2018, 11:52 AM
hestati
post May 31 2018, 06:29 PM

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QUOTE(Jason @ May 30 2018, 11:47 AM)
Wait, so you're saying those POE outdoor UF membrane filter has a "waste water" like RO? I thought those were just for back flushing purposes.
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Does not always happen at the same time, this is why there is crossflow mode and dead end mode. China membranes it depends on the membrane design I suppose, some are "same time", others are not. If it happens at the same time, then fouling happens slower and flow is more consistent. If you let it accumulate to wash, then flow drops gradually and it becomes a lot harder to wash it, so recovery rate is lower. Recovery rate also depends on flushing/cleaning method. To restore membrane performance, need to use real backwash and air flow, chemicals etca. Real backwash means the flow is actually reversed. As far as I know, most of residential PoE membranes are not real backwash but rather "forward wash" for the lack of better word, and it is highly inefficient.

It would be interesting to calculate the price of Toray membrane installed as PoE. If there is a demand, sure it can be offered. But it is high price (not less than 2000-2500RM) and pretty much no point. Advantage is that it gets rid of bacteria but they get "reintroduced" in piping and water tank. It still does not produce drinking water, pressure drop is significant, forward wash/backwash is required.

There's a good video from DOW, note how much attention is paid to various washing methods of the membrane. It is definitely not a process in which you just set up the membrane and forget about it for 3-4 years, doing occasional front wash.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SsV9piTgVc

QUOTE(Jason @ May 30 2018, 11:48 AM)
No, but your PoU filter will clog very fast, especially PoU for drinking purposes. If its shower PoU probably don't have to bother.

If you do not want to use a PoE filter, you can put a pre-filter before your PoU system.
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Totally agree. Check the picture below, taken yesterday at Bangsar. The cartridge inside the filter was changed by the customer just 5 days ago... All this is not dirt, but iron. Quite rare case for Malaysia, but if this is your case, better have PoE or pre-filter, otherwise your non-washable cartridges of PoU will not last long.

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WhitE LighteR
post May 31 2018, 10:02 PM

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QUOTE(hestati @ May 22 2018, 05:01 PM)
This could be a good opportunity to present the PoE...

In fact, I was considering bringing PoE based on Pentek. I thought that would be great. But I changed my mind and it was not price related at all, in fact, Pentek housings are slightly cheaper than what I'm bringing now. The thing is...

Pentek used to make these in Mexico, they were of great quality, best housings out there. Now, they are all made in China since about 5 years. Not only the moved production to China, but it seems they simply outsourced it (meaning probably not even Pentek factory makes them), because the design changed so much that old filter head would not fit new design.

I got 2 of these as a sample and tried to install and it's real pain in the butt. You need to use tons, tons of food grade silicone for it not to leak through the seal and to keep this stupid o-ring in the tiny groove. You need to tighten it so much that it almost cracks. Once installed and after trying it 50 times, it seems ok, but imagine that down the line you will need to wash the cartridge or change it, so again, open it, tons of silicone grease, fighting with the o-ring. I had pictures somewhere, if I find it, will post it, there you can see how stupid the o-ring is. I though I'm the only one with this issue, but it seems everyone is facing that with new design (just read their Amazon reviews for instance, even professionals are struggling to make it water tight).

I gave up and instead got double o-ring housing from Taiwan. The quality of these housings is outstanding, day and night compared to Pentek. And because of double o-ring, they are easy to maintain and do not require 1/2 kilo of grease. Coupled with 5 micron pleated polyester filter and pressure gauges, I believe this is the best package out there, so we placed an order. Got first few of 20" and they are sold out, installing last one this Saturday... I have 1 10" left for condo though. Next, larger batch is coming by the end of the month, but we may have an order for 50 to be installed at the new development right away, this is to be confirmed.

As for NSF, I really believe it doesn't matter for PoE for residential applications, what matters is that they don't leak. PoE is not for drinking water anyway. PoU will take care of plastic leaching even if it happens. And even Pentek, as far as I know it's rated NSF for cold water (up to 37.7 degrees, which is 100 Farenheit). If your housing is 12 hours under direct sun, water inside is probably above 40 degrees. In any case, it is made of reinforced, UV resistant polypropylene, and it is chemically stable up to 100C degrees.

The only reason Pentek has NSF is because in some states (California, Nevada etc) everything that is commercial food/water related (restaurants, bakery etc) must have everything NSF certified. Even knifes, forks and cutting boards are NSF. So you can run your business without any filter, it's allowed, but if you install non NSF housing even as PoE, even if you say it's for toilet flushing, they will give you a fine.

So in short, what I offer is:

Made in Taiwan high quality PoE
- 10" for condo, 20" for landed (499RM and 699RM respectively, the whole set)
- double o-ring leak proof design for ease of cleaning/replacing the cartridge
- 2 pressure gauges to be installed before and after, to show when to change/wash filter
- 5 micron pleated polyester cartridge filter, 100% synthetic with no binding material
- washable cartridge, expected life is 2-3 years (depends once again, mainly on iron)
- mounting bracket included

Basically it is 3M AP902, 1/2 price and with longer cartridge life AND indicator gauges AND available in condo configuration. The pics are again, under the spoiler. As usual, any questions, please let me know.

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «
For this kind needs another pre filter also?

This post has been edited by WhitE LighteR: Jun 4 2018, 12:51 AM
aeiou228
post May 31 2018, 10:59 PM

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Just add-on FD to my Culligan EZ-4. Total 4 stages of filtration.
1 micron melt blown sediment > Doulton Ceramic > Disruptor > Culligan EZ-4.
Any comment, hestati?
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