Hi Hestati,

There are now many POE filters in the market, some of them are claimed to be using UF single-pore membrane that can filter up to 0.01 micron and there is a newer one that is using multi-pore member.

In your opinion, for POE (and assuming one already has a good POU), is it an overkill to filter down to 0.01 micron and if so, what are the reasons? Would a 5 micron filter be good enough?

Oh, these membranes... I can't judge the quality, but logic says that quality UF membrane of this size in stainless steel housing should cost at least x3.

But ok, let's assume that this is a miracle cheap product that actually works as advertised and is of same quality as Toray/CSM membranes (impossible, but let's assume for a second). Placing membrane exposed to raw tap water is a very bad idea because of membrane fouling.

These membranes work in crossflow, just like RO membranes. You have permeate (good water) pushed through membrane, and concentrate (bad water) flowing past, carrying away SOME of impurities. (So for every 1L of water you get, you waste few L of water.) But some impurities are still deposited on membrane surface, blocking the pores of the membrane, degrading it performance and significantly increasing the amount of water it is wasting.

But what can you do about it? Some industrial membranes are backwashable (you cannot just backwash any membrane, it must be designed for it). Other membranes are soaked in chemicals (acids or concentrated chlorine), then thoroughly rinsed. But either is not the case for these advertised membranes, so they get fouled and performance degrades rather quickly if you do not have any pre filters and the membrane is exposed to all the dirt in the water. Besides degraded performance, bacteria starts growing inside the membrane. It cannot get through, but this media starts producing gases and these get through membrane with no issue.

To summarize, these membranes are (assuming they work as advertised):
- waste water
- degrade quickly by fouling and waste even more water
- start producing smelly water once bacteria starts growing

Now, reasonable question would be "what about Aquaphor, it has UF inside, right?" Correct, Aquaphor has what is called dead end flow UF membrane, so no wasted water. In theory, It gets fouled quicker than crossflow membranes, however Aquaphor has pre filters down to 0.5 micron prior to membrabe to take care of most impurities. Bacteria still make it to the membrane and start growing inside, producing gases, this is why Aquaphor has a post carbon filter, to remove the smell.

So are those UF PoE bad idea? Yes if they are exposed to raw flow. Can you make them efficient? Yes, by using pre filters and post filters. But even in that case, even you can somehow prevent fouling by using pre filters, you are wasting few L of water for every clean L produced.

Hope this helps.

How about this kind?

https://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?act=ST&f=220&t=4270613

Oh, these membranes... I can't judge the quality, but logic says that quality UF membrane of this size in stainless steel housing should cost at least x3.

But ok, let's assume that this is a miracle cheap product that actually works as advertised and is of same quality as Toray/CSM membranes (impossible, but let's assume for a second). Placing membrane exposed to raw tap water is a very bad idea because of membrane fouling.

These membranes work in crossflow, just like RO membranes. You have permeate (good water) pushed through membrane, and concentrate (bad water) flowing past, carrying away SOME of impurities. (So for every 1L of water you get, you waste few L of water.) But some impurities are still deposited on membrane surface, blocking the pores of the membrane, degrading it performance and significantly increasing the amount of water it is wasting.

But what can you do about it? Some industrial membranes are backwashable (you cannot just backwash any membrane, it must be designed for it). Other membranes are soaked in chemicals (acids or concentrated chlorine), then thoroughly rinsed. But either is not the case for these advertised membranes, so they get fouled and performance degrades rather quickly if you do not have any pre filters and the membrane is exposed to all the dirt in the water. Besides degraded performance, bacteria starts growing inside the membrane. It cannot get through, but this media starts producing gases and these get through membrane with no issue.

To summarize, these membranes are (assuming they work as advertised):
- waste water
- degrade quickly by fouling and waste even more water
- start producing smelly water once bacteria starts growing

Now, reasonable question would be "what about Aquaphor, it has UF inside, right?" Correct, Aquaphor has what is called dead end flow UF membrane, so no wasted water. In theory, It gets fouled quicker than crossflow membranes, however Aquaphor has pre filters down to 0.5 micron prior to membrabe to take care of most impurities. Bacteria still make it to the membrane and start growing inside, producing gases, this is why Aquaphor has a post carbon filter, to remove the smell.

So are those UF PoE bad idea? Yes if they are exposed to raw flow. Can you make them efficient? Yes, by using pre filters and post filters. But even in that case, even you can somehow prevent fouling by using pre filters, you are wasting few L of water for every clean L produced.

Hope this helps.

Hello, is PoE system a must if we install PoU system?

Wait, so you're saying those POE outdoor UF membrane filter has a "waste water" like RO? I thought those were just for back flushing purposes.

No, but your PoU filter will clog very fast, especially PoU for drinking purposes. If its shower PoU probably don't have to bother.

If you do not want to use a PoE filter, you can put a pre-filter before your PoU system.

This could be a good opportunity to present the PoE...

In fact, I was considering bringing PoE based on Pentek. I thought that would be great. But I changed my mind and it was not price related at all, in fact, Pentek housings are slightly cheaper than what I'm bringing now. The thing is...

Pentek used to make these in Mexico, they were of great quality, best housings out there. Now, they are all made in China since about 5 years. Not only the moved production to China, but it seems they simply outsourced it (meaning probably not even Pentek factory makes them), because the design changed so much that old filter head would not fit new design.

I got 2 of these as a sample and tried to install and it's real pain in the butt. You need to use tons, tons of food grade silicone for it not to leak through the seal and to keep this stupid o-ring in the tiny groove. You need to tighten it so much that it almost cracks. Once installed and after trying it 50 times, it seems ok, but imagine that down the line you will need to wash the cartridge or change it, so again, open it, tons of silicone grease, fighting with the o-ring. I had pictures somewhere, if I find it, will post it, there you can see how stupid the o-ring is. I though I'm the only one with this issue, but it seems everyone is facing that with new design (just read their Amazon reviews for instance, even professionals are struggling to make it water tight).

I gave up and instead got double o-ring housing from Taiwan. The quality of these housings is outstanding, day and night compared to Pentek. And because of double o-ring, they are easy to maintain and do not require 1/2 kilo of grease. Coupled with 5 micron pleated polyester filter and pressure gauges, I believe this is the best package out there, so we placed an order. Got first few of 20" and they are sold out, installing last one this Saturday... I have 1 10" left for condo though. Next, larger batch is coming by the end of the month, but we may have an order for 50 to be installed at the new development right away, this is to be confirmed.

As for NSF, I really believe it doesn't matter for PoE for residential applications, what matters is that they don't leak. PoE is not for drinking water anyway. PoU will take care of plastic leaching even if it happens. And even Pentek, as far as I know it's rated NSF for cold water (up to 37.7 degrees, which is 100 Farenheit). If your housing is 12 hours under direct sun, water inside is probably above 40 degrees. In any case, it is made of reinforced, UV resistant polypropylene, and it is chemically stable up to 100C degrees.

The only reason Pentek has NSF is because in some states (California, Nevada etc) everything that is commercial food/water related (restaurants, bakery etc) must have everything NSF certified. Even knifes, forks and cutting boards are NSF. So you can run your business without any filter, it's allowed, but if you install non NSF housing even as PoE, even if you say it's for toilet flushing, they will give you a fine.

So in short, what I offer is:

Made in Taiwan high quality PoE
- 10" for condo, 20" for landed (499RM and 699RM respectively, the whole set)
- double o-ring leak proof design for ease of cleaning/replacing the cartridge
- 2 pressure gauges to be installed before and after, to show when to change/wash filter
- 5 micron pleated polyester cartridge filter, 100% synthetic with no binding material
- washable cartridge, expected life is 2-3 years (depends once again, mainly on iron)
- mounting bracket included

Basically it is 3M AP902, 1/2 price and with longer cartridge life AND indicator gauges AND available in condo configuration. The pics are again, under the spoiler. As usual, any questions, please let me know.

For this kind needs another pre filter also?

This post has been edited by WhitE LighteR: Jun 4 2018, 12:51 AM

For this kind needs another pre filter also?

Just add-on FD to my Culligan EZ-4. Total 4 stages of filtration.
1 micron melt blown sediment > Doulton Ceramic > Disruptor > Culligan EZ-4.
Any comment, hestati?

Good setup, but can probably get rid of ceramic once it gets blocked or old, I don't think it has any real use in this setup.

How is the flow rate?
Question for everyone. Water dispenser... I have many customers asking for it, and we have really nothing to offer. Dispenser is a crucial part, since water is sitting in it for a long time, so it must not leach any lead or plastic in the clean filtered water. So far, I can't find any certified dispenser either for personal use or to be able to offer to customers. Any idea, suggestion?

Thanks!

After I remove the ceramic, just leave one housing empty or you have any other suggestion for the empty housing?

The flow rate is 1min = 1200ml. (4 stages). If only first 3 stages, the flow rate is 2 or 3 times faster.

Home water dispenser for personal use? Put a lead free faucet + tubing inside a diy dispenser box?

Yes, can leave it empty. If you want to have fun, can put granular carbon cartridge there, it will not reduce the flow, but will help your main filter to deal with chlorine. And VOCs

Surprised flow rate is much less with  stage 4.... Is it brand new?

As for dispenser, problem is most people want cold/hot dispenser. Usually dispensers are easily infested by bacteria and require a lot of maintenance. I found very nice NSF cert dispensers, but they are... 3000 USD and more, must be made of gold. Also found in 300USD range, but I find that even that is too much. Must be around 500-600RM...

Hello, If I use your Fresca system, do I need to have a pre-filter installed?

Hello. No, Fresca has a sediment filter as stage 1, so it is like an integrated pre-filter. Stage 1 (as well as stage 2) is washable cartridge, 5 micron sediment, so there is no need for a separate pre filter.

Thank you. Do you have an installer in JB area?

What's the best, affordable & lasting outdoor filter? My pipe water contains many heavy metal such as lead & worried they might clogging the pipe.

Doesn't plan to make it drinkable as we used to boil the water before consume.