Well, just a bit boring so want to have some feedback from you guyz so that we can actually ask them use the same rule for next Dota Competition...

For WCG rules, basically it count by TOWER >> Barrack >> KILLS and no backdooring and warding at neutral creeps spot are allowed (It's Strictly NOT ALLOWED) with these rules, scourge will be the most advantage side to wining the game, u can see under WCG rule, out of 80% game are win using scourge side, but now WCG change it's rule again, From 60min gameplay change to 90min, now it sound more advantage to the Sentinel side IMO, and IMO under WCG rules, replay will be more nice to watch becoz everyone will not hestitate and keep pushing and pushing, so it will be very "good replay" coz when the game end up, the kill will go 40+ kill for one game... it will show you team work are very needed under WCG rules...

For SMM rules, everything goes by point system, so basically sentinel have the more advantage to win the game, coz sentinel hero have a early game advantage on owning their own lane, and now already change the rule, allow backdooring and no warding restriction, No ward restriction <<< have already make Chen become a useless chen ( it's didn't As Great As before the rules changed ) What more, Under SMM rules it will show u the most quality gameplay and everything really depend on your personal skill, it really required you have a very good personal skill in order to win the game... but the Replay will be very S**K, everyone will make their move carefully and a Pro team vs a Pro team, basically whole game didn't have alot kill, i got saw one Semi final before, end game only have 19 kill... if you see the replay i think you will fall a sleep

Ok, all these thing i mention above, you can ignore or agree, because it's not my main point... hahahahaha
What i want to point is, Can "Someone" come out a "Rules" that every single tournament will us it ? like a Standard rules, did you see a different football rule's using for worldcup and european cup ??? IMO, it very annoying for those team who want to train these two rules, they have to think alot combo, lineup for different rules... it really annoying..

So i hope that in future will have a standard DotA rules for everyone to follow, but please make it fast... lolx it quit suffering for me

and a great thing, those CC Preliminaries champion have to play another round for Singapore Asian champion, who win it will represent Malaysia go to SIN and play and it using Singapore AP rules .....

P/S: Welcome feedback and flame me if you one, coz all is IMO

This post has been edited by winternight: Jul 23 2006, 04:19 PM

i agree with most the thingu said

WCG rules la

wcg rules totally sux...count tower..all jus use life to change tower but if playing SMM rules u will not do tat..thats y..

smm rules is the best... most fair...

relax la xD.. i no wat u think =PPPP

lol i relax la xD..i noe who u missing

Actually, for me dota is already an unbalance game.
Different rules will have different type of playing. To make a fair rules for each side will take very long time and experience.
Some say 60minute is good enough, why wcg change? cause alot gamers complain 60minute is not enough. Some like WCG Rules, Some prefer SMM rules.
I think the most important thing right now is we standardise the game rules for every tournament.

wcg got all the time they have.... many FPS games are played for 2-3 hours so dota play 1.5 hour shouldn be a problem

If wcg really have that much time, i got a better rules =P
But if really got 128 teams then problem a bit.

FYI, barrack is counted as tower.
For SMM rules, they din ask for permission and "stealed" the rules from dota-kaki tourney (some mini tourney hosted in the ahem server in malaysia)
And about the asian championship, it is not champion will represent malaysia to that event, i also not sure bout it, but we will know during the national final ;o



Follow TDA rules! TDA rules FTW!

This post has been edited by Hell Fire: Jul 24 2006, 08:16 AM

I Think this is a interesting post... But in my opinion i think that its better that each Dota Tournament has its own set of rules... Regardless whether the game is won by tower count/rax count or point system... The main challenge of the game is to be able to adapt to the gameplay... There is no Noob or Pro really, just like a simple human theory "Trial N Error"... Since the begining of the Dota competitions a lot of teams that lose complain "Oh they stole our Combo" or "They know our strat" Hence if the rules keep changing we can see which team puts more effort into the game in terms of research and coming out with new tactics to play with...
Though Dota has a limited variety of heroes and combo's its up the teams individual skill to prove its worth... Just My Opinion... Plz Dont Flame Me... I Shy HAHAHA...

*** loh, woowoo also know shy one.... hahaha
what u say is true also la.... but v6 really gay la... what combo also can say "is a combo", like ur Orge Magi... JOke

anywayz, who host the event should have their own rules, you don't like then you don't join, if u want, u must follow, a very simple theory.... if a tournament prize money is 50k and with a "sohai" rules, i think everyone will join it, coz everyone see the prize money first... not the rule

i think the biggest problem with DOTA development in the gaming scene now is that the major international gaming event such as CPL, ESWC, WCG do not treat DOTA as a "legitimate" competition game, DOTA is not featured in these events at the world stage, unlike CS and WC3, which these events will standardize the rules, and the rest of smaller competition will follow their footsteps.

others pros in international gaming community like CS and WC3 also treat DOTA players as just some "pro-gamers wannabe", they feel those that are pros in DOTA usually are those that failed in Single Melee WC3 and make a switch to DOTA , so without the respect and recognition of those sponsors, event organizers and other players in gaming community in international stage, DOTA will always stayed in this form, whereby each country will hold their small scale national competition, and each country will come up with different rules for their own competition.

p/s: the Asian-WCG that featured DOTA is actually an event that Singapore is responsible for, so DOTA is still not regconized in the Official Worldwide WCG.

u have a point there synzo... but every game takes time to develop... even cs used to be a minor game... but its also a fact that a games impact on WCG depends on its popularity... and as for "Pro-Gamer Wannabe" a person who can make that statement doesnt have much ground to stand on... A Pro Cs player is a Pro Cs player... Why dont u try to ask Ronaldo to go play Rugby? Nothing much to compare...

Regarding your comment about 80% scourge winning on 60 min limit,i strongly agree. The changes from 627-632b has buffed scourge quite a bit.

But how does that reflect to sentinel advantage on 90 min game ?
From CAL replays, where games go 60+mins, it's quite obvious scourge wins easily.
Teams like CoL and Pandemic even take an all scourge line up for the deciding AP game if given the chance.


Singapore rules where they skip to an AP game straight probably saves up alot of time if both teams are good/equal in skill and more fair, since the deciding game is going to be AP anyway.

During 627b when senti was strong,getting a coin toss of senti at early brackets during 1 round knockout is all that really matters.
Senti may not be a sure win, but it gives you enough of an advantage to make a win on scourge a rare thing if both sides are equally skilled.

This is especially obvious in the blitzone tourney, where the semifinals/finals had alot of draws with Senti winning both sides.
And Enet losing to Wizz2's senti.
Wizz2's senti combo and execution that match was great, but you can't deny that if Enet flipped senti, the results might have very well been different.

Also our match vs gamebox/k5 at blitz tournament is another example,with us flipping sentinel and winning by just 7 points. If they flipped senti, i'm quite sure they would have gone to semis instead of us.

So in comparison of SG/WCG/SMM ruling, i would say SG rules are probably better in terms of fairness.

Of course that is just my opinion heh.

v true v true.. DQ ALL WoooPs ... i mean GG ALLL

This post has been edited by Bz - n a t a k u: Jul 24 2006, 05:53 PM

in term of fairness and time management, maybe AP mode is the way to go, but...

DOTA is a game that based on it "Sentinels Vs Scourge, Good Vs Bad" theme, maybe the current balance in sentinels vs scourge is not yet fair, but sometimes this "imbalance" shows the best out of a team, like during the v5 era, when sentinels used to win every game, KS came up with the infamous 4 bucklers int hero & medusa strat that no team was able to beat them using sentinels....

maybe now in v6, there will be 1 team that come up with another brilliant strategy that show us all that sentinels can still defeat scourge if both teams are equally skilled, and we will cheer for that team , and that my friends, is where the romance and intrigue of a normal pick mode has over AP mode.

there is a way to solve this "imbalance" without switching tourneys to AP mode, which is to start the tourney playing both sides from the 1st round , that way teams will not argue that they were unlucky to be eliminated at early rounds because they got the "weaker" side, there is no need for a 3rd deciding game as points from the 2 games can be add up to get a total score,

Lets say, i got a rules which i think is most fair to both side but it requires to play for 2 hours straight. Will it be too stressful for the gamers?

Tournament that using AP rules in stupid in my opinion ..

There is the reason why Sladar and Centaur are not in the same..( some example )

Just as someone said, Dota's main theme is about ' good vs bad '.

and about the time-limit, I think SMM rules probably is the best.

60min and the scoring system is perfect. You kill, You raze , you get the point

Unlike WGC, OMFG, 1 More TOWER! we will win!! Let me SUICIDE!!!

*EDITED********

This post has been edited by Hell Fire: Jul 24 2006, 07:43 PM

AGREE AGREE!!! SMM RULES ROCKS!!! switch switch!!!!

i also think that smm rules are fairer, imagining how we won SK during wcg prelim....we won by 1 tower....but heroes we were down almost 20 i think zzzz
i dunno wut to say but i feel it was damn unfair T.T

Well i dun think that smm rules is fairer than wcg rules or vice-versa.
To me, different rules = different style of playing.

Both WCG and SMM rules have their own pros n cons,the best way is of course to merge this rules and discard the absurd unfair rules.SMM still allows warding in neutral creep's spot?Thats one rule deserving the thrash can,WCG tower count?That is one unfair rule,so basically the orga's just have to sit down and really put in effort in evaluating such matters and come out with a very stable acceptable rule.

Like Odin said,hero kills down almost 20?But the fact that they got the last push and broke an extra tower,of course with them changing with their lives aiming that tower,resulted to their win.Even the winner don't feel its fair at all,so this rule isn't really working.Imagine the replay,nobody cares of dying,they just aim the tower,so there wont be really wars and nice combos shown,just some lame pushing.Tower defense anyone?

And for the 60 or 90 mins debate,lets just look further in the long term effect.[90mins]If you draw 1 - 1 or just win both games 2- 0,thats already 3 hour game,then u need -AP mode for the decisive win IF there was a draw.Now that is 4 and a half hour game,wow...then you'll have another game against another team and it keeps going on.Of course this normally comes into effect in semi-finals and finals,but still,adding the single elimination rounds to your road to finals,that is a whole load of time.Imagine having 128 teams?Imagine the time the orga is going to waste and gamers having to wait their turn.

I don't really have the time to write more,ending this with a note that it is also true that with different set of rules,tournaments would be more challenging,teams just got to adapt and come up with different strategies.Just leave the dumb rules out,and everyone would be happy.Have a nice day.

I've call up a meeting for all dota marshal. We'll discuss about the rules. I hope to get more feedback from gamers, I will bring your feedback up on the meeting.

i think no DOTA competitors will complain is too stressful to play for a longer time if it means they get a fair chance of winning.

is just like asking CS players would they rather play just 1 side, counter terrorists or terrorists so they wouldnt be so stressful in competition?

like DOTA, in CS , there are also maps that favour a certain side,guess wat the answer u will get from them?

there is actually no need for a 3rd deciding AP game if you are playing 2 sides, u can just do a similar system like CS, whereby points ( depending on whether which competition, towers[WCG] or herokills+towers[SMM] ) can be add up from both games to get the final result, i believe nobody will argue that this system is not fair?

I think SMM rule is slightly more fairer for both scourge and sents... since sniper and chen has been nerfed down for v6.32b , i think the strats teams used for v6.27b have to be different already ler

no offense by wcg tower count rules is just plain stupid... u can just mass aegis go suicide towers... where smm u need better n more organised play style to win a game... even audience can see if u play via smm rules n win is more convincing who is the victo... 1 more thing is i really think 3rd -AP game is good ... much like 100% better than coin flip scourge/senti coz is really more skill intense to drafting heroes n fairer... if any teams gonna represent malaysia for SG asian championship we gotta swicth to -Ap draftin coz teams in malaysia have zero ideas ... go asian championship in this manner is embarassing

AR is imbalance..

Why not using -Tr mode as 3rd round? (team random)

Well, here what I found at Dota-Allstar forum..migh off-topic though..

http://forums.dota-allstars.com/index.php?showtopic=60219

good TDA rules are the best... btw why no CPL rules? quite a number of TDA rules are taken into consideration in CPL

isnt that TDA rules dont have time-limit? I used to be watch TDA clan replays for 2 hours just for single match..

HAhah synzo, that's what i have in my mind. That's why i asked, will it be stressful if u all need to play 2 hours straight.

even if u mass aegis, if opponent with damage items, before u reach the tower u're dead then mass aegis also no point right? Mass aegis u also need to push the creeps until they hit the tower 1st.
well, if backdoor is allowed then is different story. that 1 really is everyone juz straight go suicide tower.

Let's say if wcg totally change the rules, what u guyz will think. Will it be fair to everyone? The loser of preliminaries, will they complain? Well the bright side is u still can buy ticket and join the national final at KLCC but for SMM i think only the qualifiers can enter the grand final right?

This post has been edited by nles: Jul 25 2006, 12:17 AM

i think that your question have been answered by that neslopeng in a previous post, i totally agree with him .....

well, i think no one will complain if the rules change are fair and for the better future of the game, even the loser of prelims will feel that the organizers really put their heart and soul into making WCG a better event by changing the tournament structure rather than sticking with a obsolete and unfair structure,

This post has been edited by synzo: Jul 25 2006, 12:35 AM

There's some rules that i like feedback from gamers.

1. Backdoor, allowed or not? ( How u guys define backdoor as? )
2. Ward on neutral creeps spot, allowed or not?
3. Need to megacreeps only destroy throne/tree or just destroy one path then can throne/tree (myself think that break 6 rax only can throne/tree is crap =P)

For backdooring, lets say when u push u walked faster than ur creeps and u hit the buildings 1-2 hit before the creeps wave arrived, will u guys consider that as backdoor?
What bout barracks, is it only your creeps hit opponent barracks only u can hit or you just need your creeps in the sight then can hit?

Backdoor just ruin the purpose of the game..the game suppose to force the players push together and destroy the throne/tree.

and Backdoor isnt really that effective anymore in v6 because TownPortal can easily grant 9999 armor to the building to prevent backdoor.




ward on neutral can be countered by gem..I dont see why is the big fuss about it. It is players' fault for not getting gem to counter it..I doubt the opponent going to warding at neutral creep area after you destroy the ward few times.



Well, it is up to the players's decision..Play safe or take the risk against the main throne/tree.

i would suggest this rule be scrapped as it does not give a chance for a team that losing at early and mid game to win the game by breaking the throne/tree after destroying the 2 barracks of 1 path, it also unnecessarily drag the game on even the result is already very clearly shown at some point....

if you are thinking of commencing DOTA like CS whereby every team get to play 2 sides to find out the winner, which i supports, thencancelling this break 6 rax then only can throne rule is a definitely "MUST", it will save you precious time and hassle, cause when the strong teams meet the weaker teams, the game can GG in a timely manner,

This post has been edited by synzo: Jul 25 2006, 12:53 AM

u talk about the losers complainin ? like synzor said at least u guys made the heart n effort to improve the rules for future better game play... tats wat it should be makin the game a better playing rules for the future not the past ... yea regarding backdoor n wardin i think is should be allowed coz is really not easy to backdoor not like ver5 n warding is purely a strategy .. restriction causes it to lower game plays .. less strats intense... i really support -Ap draft since asian championship is using it .. n is really the most skill intense mode due to hero counter drafting

Anyway this 2 sides rules we'll discuss later. Let's concentrate on the 3 question i mentioned.

And i believe m4gi_7, as rumours i heard wn_sk is the team that played most -ap singapore rules right? U guys got more experience on -ap rules compare to others, myself haven experience it before so i'm not in the position saying -ap is good or bad.

This post has been edited by nles: Jul 25 2006, 12:58 AM

if u would play -AP u would know is the most fair mode coz it could go both ways... i believe all top teams would agree wif me tat scourge/senti has its imbaness in which ever versions like 6.27b most ppl think senti is imba n scourge is weaker where not 6.32b most teams goes scourge which is clearly the stronger sides .. so -Ap is definately the most balanced version... since is really up to team strategy in drafting n players adaption skillz

well, i think all 3 rules that you mentioned are very obsolete in competitive level of DOTA ,
1st rule backdooring is not that significant in v6, and also easily countered now by TP scrolls.

2nd rule warding of neutral creeps , are easily countered by experienced teams.

3rd rule you mention about breaking 6 rax only can hit throne also is redundant as it unnecessary drags a game on forever,

This post has been edited by synzo: Jul 25 2006, 01:10 AM

no offence, but from my point of view, i really supports an addup point system from 2 normal pick games instead of deciding 3rd game using AP mode:

1st, i feel the theme of DOTA is sentinels vs scourge, call me a romantic son of a b**** , but AP mode just totally kills this theme!

2nd, i still see certain "imbalance" in AP mode, as the team that get to choose 1st still holds a slight advantage, as they can know their opponent heroes choice from previous games, and they can take those heroes aways from their opposition if they get to choose 1st.

well... if you tried b4 by using gem to counter the warding creep, thing u must know is... is already slower down the neutral creep spawn, even if you clear the ward, the neutral creep still not coming out, need after few min, it only come out, if you very unlucky.. once you clear the ward, and put the gem back to base then opponent come and plant again... lol imagine it... and 1 more thing u must know... not every time spawn those Furbolg, Centaur or the Hellcaster... sometime.. some joke neutral creep come out, u need to clear it and wait again... then wat the purpose of Sentinel having Chen this hero ?? one Ward can say already kill his 50% potential... duhhhhhhhhhh

No no, what i mean is warding at neutral creeps spot but not on neutral creeps spawn.
I think that's different right??? warding on neautral creeps spawn = ward directly on neautral creeps to prevent them from spawning, but ward on neutral creeps spot = near the neutral creeps to see oponent hero farming neutral creeps

1. I define backdoor as skipping towers, following creeps or not doesnt matter, backdooring rules is simply there to prevent ppl going for barracks or throne straight. But i think the map has already made the towers,barracks and throne invulnerable to attacks before the building before the sequence is broken. Hence, i feel there is no way a team can 'backdoor' unfairly anymore, because they have to destroy buildings in sequence, lvl 1, 2 ,3 towers etc. Hence, backdooring is kind of an obselete rule.

2. Warding creeps, this is a rule that has its good and bad. Buying gem to counter observer wards is simply not cost effective, 750 vs a 215 item?? And the usefulness of obs ward at the beginning is like 100 times better than gem!! and for 1/3 the cost....that makes its 300 times better
And all these warding thing just to counter chen...which has already been nerfed significantly...

I think the main point here is, it is very difficult to penalise teams that wards creeps and decide whether it was intentionally and unintentionally. This is because even the pro players doesn't know where wards can affect the spawning of creeps. e.g. sometimes the wards clearly doesn't reveal the creeps, but the creeps just won't spawn. Intentional? or? and the warding of small creeps where chen normally doesnt steal...should it be penalised? I don't think so.

I feel that warding rule should only be used to protect the 6 batches of creeps ( 3 at sentinel and 3 and scourge) where chen usually goes to harvest creeps.

3. I made my point at the backdooring issue. I think its very simple, you hit what you can hit Things that you shouldn't hit are invulnerable anyways

P.S. About AP or normal pick, I still feel that it should be normal pick, because thats what dota is all about scourge vs sentinel. Currently, i feel that if the rules are set and players gets to train under the same set of rule for a sustained period, I feel that strats will develop in a way that it will even for both sides. After Enet vs SK in the prelims i genuinely feels that sentinel are even with scourge
About the imbaness of sentinel or scourge that may exists, I think map versions will take care of the problem, and the rules should remain constant (minor tweaks allowed)

Its getting too long hehe i think i will write more after i see more input from other gamers

i think someone once said that the less u see of the referee, the better the quality of a football match is, or something similar to that,

i think the same idea applies to DOTA rules as well, i think the less "grey" rules there are in competition, the better quality of a DOTA match is.

after my years of involvement in DOTA competition scene, i notice and i think many will agree with me, that many teams out there like to use "grey"rules to overturn a game result when they loses a match, eg: the SMM game where BZ was DQ due to a player accidentally selling a flask of sapphire water that belongs to a teamate, and Penang WCG qualifier, Netzero was asked to be DQ by their opponents cause they hit the throne before clearing all 6 barracks in their opponent base, and i can go on and on wit this kind of case scenarios, the similarities of all these cases are that these teams are clearly losing the matches regardless of the winning team did "broke" those rules or not, but they canot take the defeat and resolved to using this "IMBA" DQ strat to GG their opponent,

the losing team will argue that is does not matter if they are losing the game or not, if the other team broke the rules , they should be DQ, which by letter of the law,they are correct...

the winning team will feel injustice cause they lost a match not cause of lack of skills or teamwork, but cause of a stupid rule that they did not intentionally broke....

the point i trying to make is that to cut down on this kind of incidents happening again, less "debatable" rules should be implemented, and just stick to the few basic rules that all agreed on like no pooling, no bug exploitation etc.
these kind of incidents is really annoying both for the gamers and marshalls, and will only waste precious time of gaming events that are already short of time to begin with.

This post has been edited by synzo: Jul 25 2006, 03:12 AM

no different one la... THose NEUTRAL CREEP ARE FARKER, they very shy one, you cannot see him.. or gain spot... coz when u see him or gain spot from the neutral creep, he won't spawn one... you need the place become blind for min then he only will spawn out... becoz IceFrog design those neutral creep become shy creep...
what i say is true.. not joke... although it sound fun .. LoL

Oh well i guess we will just have to follow singapore rules because the Asian Championship is 12-13 August and Malaysia WCG finals 25-27 August.

So when is the competition to decide who is representing Malaysia for the Asian Championship??

The prizes for the Asian Championship is SGD $5000, SGD $3000S, GD $1000.

For more information check here
http://asian.worldcybergames.com/index.php

1) we have try to remove backdoor issue in state revenge, and we can feel the player wont have any pressure on pushing any lane, tower, barrack. Player won't have such an issue like, " go back go back dun hit tower" or "wait creep 1st only attack" kind of word from the player.
And, this will reduce the work load of the marshall: not need to watch carefully on the player's screen, not really need to watch replay, since this is the highest chance that require marshall team to watch the replay.
And, we actually can c more hero kill and more unstressable combo when we removed backdoor rules in Central and South Revenge.

2) warding is always an arguement in the tourney. just to use this warding rules to protect the benefit of "chen" is a bit frust. so, we have removed this.

3) i think the dota ultimate rule is to destoy the throne, so iregards of the lane, whenever u ll be able to break the throne, you are the winner.

** Regarding to the BZ case, just because they are the strong team, u all keep raising the issue, y not u go n check which team have dqed by us in JB n Melaka. Since there are a competition, there will be a rules that u must obey, irregards who are you. At last, i personally respect BZ team, because they show their sportmanship and respect to the organiser, and we gave them chance in NS tourney and they deserve the champion in NS not only of their skill and also their attitude.

** Regarding the Penang case, maybe u can check the replay, the ward is rite in front of the neutral creep(somemore, leader is the 1 who ward the place). No team dare to do like this before this, if we dun do something to the team, what will the other think of us? please stand at the viewpoint of the organiser and think.

cheers

Ian, i try raise the BZ issues just as 1 of the example that losing teams like to use rules to their advantage, i not trying to flame the organizer for DQing BZ ,is like u said,some rules that are not needed will reduce workload of marshall, and produce a game wit more hero kills and more combos.

the penang case i mentioned is the WCG qualifier, not the penang SMM qualifier, so i think u mistaken my point again,

Ya know, rules, are there for a reason, where a marshal, could use it at his/her disposal to prosecute an action. However, whether to prosecute the team or not, is entirely at the discretion of the marshal.

Of course, we don't do every thing black & white. Its like the football games. You follow every single rule in the book, the game gets kinda boring, like the infamous 30-cards-in-a-worldcup-match thingy. Sometimes we'll turn a blind-eye to some stuffs in order to ensure a smooth game. However, I believe only experienced marshals can execute this properly, with DotA still relatively a fresh face in the gaming scene hopefully as time passes by this situation will improve. Of course, constructive feedbacks and suggestions are always welcomed to enhance such processes.

Personally, I believe there are certain loopholes in the WCG R&R that needs to be mended. I believe al your suggestions here will be taken into consideration as many people are indeed reading these very threads in lowyat.NET. However, please keep post counts to a minimal and only post constructively, reading repetitive posts does make the reader sleepy ya know.



Perhaps, there might be one last modification just before WCG National Finals. Maybe if you guys send enough (proper) emails to In2, that's a maybe though

^^ okok , cheers
hope everybody enjoy dota
DotA community need a rules for the whole community
we hope the whole scenario can goes well

I've received called from few gamers and heard from few gamers on the spot about their opinion on the rules.
Because there's so much prelim around the nation, not only we can't standardise rules for different tournament. Now even rules among wcg marshal is not standardise, that's why I called up a meeting. WCG Marshals dun hate me =P, make u guys work 1 more day but i think this meeting is needed.

So gamers who got something to say bout the rules, please post here. I'll take down your points and discuss on the marshal meeting tomorrow.

This post has been edited by nles: Jul 25 2006, 12:36 PM

actually i do have 1 suggestion of rule that maybe can help organizers to save precious time while also encouraging a more entertaining DOTA match.

my idea is the way to decide the winner after 2 normal pick games which both team win 1 game is by merely rewarding the team that win their game destroying the opponent throne/tree with the fastest time the overall victory.

this idea will definitely change the gameplan that teams have now and make them play to an uptempo, fast and furious DOTA match, which is more entertaining to viewers while also save precious time....

welcome anyone to give their opinions on this rule i suggest, just make your point constructive and helpful,

This post has been edited by synzo: Jul 25 2006, 01:13 PM

If the game is stop after destroying throne/tree, i think the game will took dam long to finish, even i myself played an 2 1/2 hour game before. both side can't push in.

this rules sound similiar to some other rules(CAL or TDA rule, but cannot remember i know there already have this rule in some other tournament in other country) but if apply in the 1st round it quit waste time throughout the whole event it quit wasted time...

I got some suggestion, Allow backdooring will probably make the game more entertaining and if you want ur creep wave present at the tower there then your hero only can attack, it is kinda of joke because scourge have a double wave or blast or fan to clear 1 entire creep wave, then you need to wait another wave to continue your attack if your creep wave cannot reach the tower there, and also sentinel also have Keeper with the Illuminate to clear creep wave with a second, so it really joke if really want creep wave to reach the entire tower then only can attack.... I personally strongly supporting allow backdooring because this can be counter easily by tower portal scroll or planing Observer/Sentry ward in some critical place to see your opponent whether they going to attack which lane, and it make the game exciting, it sound more like those RPG game guild war... alot strategy can apply with this issue, well all this is just my 2 cent's maybe will not get agree by other gamers...

and 1 more thing, allow backdooring really save marshall time just what have been say by Ian_Mok the SMM Head Marshall... also happy that they remove the No Ward Restriction rule's, IMO those 6 neutral creep spot should have Ward restriction(sentinel side 3 spot and scourge 3 spot) and other place that like those ancient creep or the 3 little neutral creep can haveNo ward restriction rules becoz Chen cannot and will not go the pick those creep to control...

and 1 more thing is really really important, i suggest 60min GamePlay rather than 90min, becoz you can imagine 90min gameplay, you training that time, normally 3 hour can train 3 match but now only can train 2 game :/ and Player will get bored and tired if really play 90min game...

I think 3rd -AP game should be the way to go... since u wanna represent malaysia to Asian CHampionship in Singapore.. why not learn n get used to it? rather than goin there n have like zero ideas? About the rest of the 3 rules i totally agree wif Ian's suggestion .. apart from tat tower count is = = just go wif the point system or if its really tower count make it a 90 mins game is more consistent ...

So you're suggesting, if point system we should use 60minutes while if tower count we should use 90minutes
Currently Malaysia tourney all using normal pick, and i agree some 1 did say that is a "Sentinel VS Scrouge" game.

yea i agree it is a "Sentinel VS Scrouge" game.

now is toking bout Malaysia WCG national final (26-27 Aug) or Inter-CC match (4 Aug ?) to qualify to Asian Championship ?

for Malaysia WCG national final can stick to normal pick, POINT SYSTEM, 60 mins...

but for Inter-CC match to qualify to Asian Championship (12-13 Aug) can play -AP since grand final there will be playing -AP, not point to select best team in normal pick but final is -AP...

jus my 2 cents..

This post has been edited by Kuso: Jul 25 2006, 03:19 PM

i think a 90minute game is really asking too much for a gamer... i believe in 60 minutes u can already declare the deserving winner instead of having the hassle to wait for another half hour... which leads to time wasting in tourneys ... n more $$ spent on training sessions

yea if its 60 mins it should be point system... n i still stand by saying -AP draft should be implemented well at least for the 3rd deciding game .. dude we are representin malaysia to go singapore to play thier -Ap draft mode of ASIAN CHAMPIONSHIP is it really tat bad for -Ap draft ? if so why bother sent a malaysia team to go if ur not willing to even try -Ap draft mode?

For the inter-cc thing, definately we're using the same Asian Championship rules.

How many ward does your opponent actually can plant? the freaking ward cost 215~375... 5 time warding mean = 1075 gold~1875 gold gone under 1 minute.

How bias! Warding make Chen weaker by 50% Yeah..but what happen if he got the creep? Isnt that make Scourage Team weaker by 50% and Sentinel 150% stronger as well? This is also one of the counter for Scourage against Sentinel.
How can someone forbid the ward just for the Chen's benefit?



if your opponent decide to buy 1 ward per game, then yes..Gem is waste of money but what if your opponent are massing ward?

How many ward you put also useless if the Gem Holder decide to destroy the ward over and over again...5 time ward cost 1075 gold...

1075 - 750 = 325 gold..OMG

Just watch the previous SMM replays, those team brought ward more than 5 time than usual.



Fair mode?

Enigma + Magnataur + Lich + Treant + EarthShaker = OMG!!!!

I know there is more wicked combo..the one I just mentioned is one of them.

You should know there is a reason why all stunner/disable/Aoe are not from the same side.



One of the rule of WCG..I wonder why...isnt there is -LM for this purpose?

and AP as tournament rule? then why bother to toss the coin to decide which side that you going to play since you can pick ALL heroes from the both side. Dont start with me about terrain advantage.

This post has been edited by zxcvbnm: Jul 25 2006, 07:32 PM

For ap rules, the used of tossing coins is to decide who get to choose the 1st hero first.

Well, there is a command called -lm for that reason..or maybe the lm dont work with AP?



This post has been edited by zxcvbnm: Jul 26 2006, 01:07 AM

i think i agree wif magi_7 that ap in decider game is gd.. it would be a interesting finale

yea AP is better..n for zxcvbnm if u say that Enigma + Magnataur + Lich + Treant + EarthShaker = OMG!!!! then u r really OMG...u think ur combo so perfect n everytime ur magnataur can catch all meh

This post has been edited by sowhatz: Jul 25 2006, 11:14 PM

totally agree wif sowhat.. come on la ur wicked combo is 3 mellee? besides -Ap is in DRAFT mode meanin each team picks 1 each infront of the referee la .. so is really about smart strategy counter draftin n putin a good combo at the same time .. if this is not strats of skill intensive then i really dunno wat is

really OMG lol with this combo, magnataur can catch all or not is 1st case, 2nd case, i think early early game ur lane gonna get TOTALLY OWN by opponent, i duno how can you survive wtih this "OMG" strats in their own lane maybe 5 stand mid :/ ,
well maybe you just want to point out -AP rules will pull out a very strong combo, but don't forget, if your opponent smart, what you picked for the 1st hero, they will choose another hero to cut off your combo or to counter you... Can't you see Those game under -AP rules sometime come out some Hero that you definately duno what purpose...

as I said, this is ONE of those wicked combo...the possibility of the wicked combo are just too many...

Magnataur dont need to catch all of them. Leave that to Enigma's black hole, then continue with Treant's Ultimate and followin with Magnataur..not that hard isnt it?

I dont know where did you guys take the idea that Magnataur MUST the one who use the ultimate as opener though.

and I seriously dont see why you guys so excited about AP for tournament...it completely ruin the game mode and kill the main theme of dota..

People always whine that dota is IMBA because of AP combo usually is the one who affect the gameplay and balance. AP are meant for fun..it dont meant for serious gaming.



This post has been edited by zxcvbnm: Jul 26 2006, 01:00 AM

ok as u said ..enigma black hole..u hav to farm a bkb or dagger to cast ur ulti coz ur opponent wont so stupid let u walk infront n ulti..the 2nd things is 3 melee how to survive at the beginning..either u let a range hero solo then 1 of ur lane will be 2 melee heroes..how to farm n lvling is the problem..or u can put 3 melee heroes at 1 lane

This post has been edited by sowhatz: Jul 26 2006, 12:57 AM

You dont get it isnt it? The combo I just mentioned is ONE of the wicked combo. For a pro or good players, they probably change some hero line to perfect it or create a better wicked combo.

and farming 2150 gold is not impossible in the early game...Just look back at those SMM replays, farming 2150 gold is still doable. Heck, some of them even manage to get Dagger at Lv6.

and about the hero line that I just mentioned, it just an example..I dont see why you ever bother to debate the 'example' ..

if you really want to debate, go Dota-Allstar forum's team strategy corner, I pretty sure they will give you a good reason why AP Combo is wicked.

This post has been edited by zxcvbnm: Jul 26 2006, 01:05 AM

don't argue, just both of you guy get ur own 5 guy and play 1 round with AP mode, winner prove he is correct with his "theory" there is no point to argue here, coz you got ur own theory, other ppl got other opinion...

Sometimes, some ppl good in talking Strategy or combo, but it work or not, they don't know... they just know that if there is a good player, they will probably do exactly what He implement... know what i mean? in Dota community, there 2 kind of player, 1 is using mouth to play, 1 is using his hand to play.... Come on if everything go like what have you say, then everyone already become unbeaten.. some time the outcome won't be expected by you...

p/s: got 1 phrase here, in cantonese "kong jau tien ha mou tek, zhou jau mou nan wai lek" <<<< if you don' know then forget it.. hahahaha..

Dun argue, I asking opinion bout rules. Not which combo ownz or whatever bla bla.

i only agree with SMM rules and AP mode! and about 90minz! its wasting time.. making players tired... when only the competition will be finish?! some ppl weekdays not free.. takkan wanna play on sunday until midnight?

I would really like to hear Bz and Odin's opinion on backdoor though. Any opinions on it?

i think backdoor cannot remove stil...

u see arr if 5 hero backdoor an tower, how can u tp tht tower ?
u gonna be free kill if u tp there... -.-

i think last time SMM rules is okay mar... whenever ur creeps reach tht tower u can destroy tht tower even tho creeps had been cleared oso u can stil continue destroy tht tower...

Do you guys think the rules now is unfair? Let's say at early stage,u lose because u loss your coin toss and opponent chose Scrouge.

i will say yes lo, but since odin said after seen wn-sk sentinel strat, he felt actually sentinel oso can fight, then i think can really can fight gua...

but stil prefer u change the system to point system... then should be balance edi...

can't say like this, if you know that many team will probably choose scourge for wcg rule, then you should train harder on your sentinel, even if you meet this kind of thing, you should have not much worry, people like to blame is Lose to the Coin Toss, not to the team, is they lack of training and so on.... i still remember at Bz tourney that time, who picked sentinel will probably win the game, got few team win the toss coin but they choose scourge, even they lose the game, but i still respect on them becoz they have confident on them....

But, what to do, if you do -ap then ppl will blame you ruin the purpose of DotA game, coz it must be senti vs scourge.... but if you do this, ppl will say unfair la,i lose to the coin toss, sometimes i quit pity organiser, but what to do, you must make them follow your rules, not them control you to follow their rules, if they don't like the rules, then don't join... Mostly ppl join the tourney is becoz of the prize money not the rules.

Example: you can see those CC organize the preliminaries round one give 1st prize as rm1000 or rm1500, will have more then 15 team join, and those CC that only provide Free Reg's fee and only with WCG merchandise, always lack off team... This already prove alot Team see the prize first, complaining unfair about they lose to the coin toss is just a reason....

just my 2 cent, you can ignore it

This post has been edited by winternight: Jul 26 2006, 11:17 AM

the reason y we remove backdoor restriction:
1) some loser team always use this rules to penalise winning team, which i personally feel "unfair", eg, if a bunch of hero cross tower n kill hero, after the task finished, they use "a" command back to retreat, if tower shoot the hero, hero will hit back tower automatically. Is is consider backdoor? i think if follow "rules", this is called backdoor.

2) their are some major tournament have remove backdoor restriction, like dotasg, MYM, if not mistaken, CAPL also remove this d.

3) reduce the workload of the marshall tremendoulsy

4) player will feel free to kill, if they can

5) i think a lot of player can counter backdoor easily, they can tp

6) backdoor also 1 of the strategy

7) ver 6 can skip tower to attack, team cannot "backdoor" to the base, they need to follow sequence also, they have no choice

just my 2 cent, ^^
cheers

This post has been edited by Ian_Mok: Jul 26 2006, 05:09 PM

Ian, i want to ask you... see whether u accept or not...

About Warding, you have make it no ward restriction, it probably will cut off chen ability, What i want to say is, if you make those 6 place( sentinel 3 spot and scourge 3 spot, chen probably will get his "friend" neutral creep at this place) as a Restriction Ward place, other than that area is NO restriction warding Area...

quite true oso bah... but i dun think backdoor can be counter by tp scroll as i mentioned when 5 hero attack your tower how u can tp to tht tower... -.- but team should counter backdoor by wards gua... but then if WCG rule (tower count) + can backdoor i think the game will be not fun edi... if SMM point system stil acceptable

I shall leap from flaming and criticizing others ideas and comments. I am quite sure some of you really came up with some good points. But eventually these ideas would need approval and of course decisions can only be made by organizers. Their discretion is the most critical part of this debate. Lets keep the positive ideas in.

I'll just share some thoughts about three things mentioned.



I'll just share some thoughts about three things mentioned.

For the backdoor issue, without any creeps heroes can start hitting the tower. I shall elaborate on why the definition of backdoor should be this way.
1. Its already designed not to allow overlap attacks on buildings.
2. The fact that there is an item called the teleportation scroll.
3. Limited strategy can be made up due to the fact that you might need to push from TOP of Scrouge side to Sentinel side just to find 5 opponents already waiting you for like few minutes? And when that attack fails, you find yourself again with the miles away of pushing creeps job before you can decently touch that tower. (this allows a much more fast paced game and of course the players will need to give more attention on situation, decoy attacks and etc.)
4. Will eventually help the game end faster, and everybody walks happy not tired.

Second issue is the warding on neutral creeps spot. This issue is not that easy to deal with. I shall explain why so. It is not only a problem for the players but to the marshals too. After really putting some thought in this matter, in my opinion the marshals will have to do an outrageous work of watching every replay to check the wards placements, that is sick. Why not leave the 'ward war' to the players? Out ward your opponent and that's all there is to say. If you want neutral creeps to spawn, be more hardworking with your wards.
1. The real 1st point is the wards can be placed anywhere near the spawn area, it is allowed and will not be counted as breaking the rule. I know it still doesn't allow creeps to spawn but this is because sometimes the area where the ward was placed is the best strategic area to view the map.
2. This is also to stop DQ good teams who accidentally placed wards viewing the neutral creep spawn area. Life is much more easier this way for both players and the organizers. It is dumb, but easier.

Third issue doesn't really need to be debated, the answer is already in our heads.

Time should be 60 mins. Yeah synzo,CS method is not bad calculation, but -AP is essential skill.

Preliminary stage should be Sentinel vs. Scrouge format. Spare us the Sentinel owns at lane or the Scrouge owns at gather or pushes or hunting or hiding or whatever funny mindset you are programmed with. Its really how your team plays the game with what type of lineup you choose, hands down.

Advanced stage needs an -AP mode to decide the winner if it was to be a draw game. Personally I think -AP is the best. But for the sake of GOOD VS. EVIL...

There is one issue that I don't see will ever change. Bad decision making by marshals. This is related to the personality of the marshals and also their common sense ability. Rules are meant to be bend and not literally taken as of its meaning. What is the most important thing is on that very day, when it comes to the marshals hand to decide something, normally it turns out to be a very bad call.

Remember this, in a court, decisions can never be the same as the fact of the cases would be different. The situation of both parties might be different. Such deep considerations have to be architected before a decision is made. That is why we have qualified Judges in those seats. Marshals are like Judges, and there is no need for me to lay out the importance of the issue if this was not to be taken seriously.

This post has been edited by Tienhoven: Jul 26 2006, 11:36 AM

since IAN mentioned dotasg, MYM, CAPL. i think these tournament has no restiction on disturbing creeps spawn, i alwis see sg replay which hero lv1 go to btm creeps spawn plc to disturb the creeps spawn.

Actually i have something to say about Backdooring... NO BACKDOORING is a Dumb Rule LoL... in v6 towers must be destroyed following a sequence... I'm lazy to quote but someone said if 5 hero backdoor ur tower how to TP, and since everyone is talking about the abusing of wards to block creep spwans. Why not use wards to see people attempting to "backdoor" ur tower? In the end its all about tactics and observation... In my opinion, from my first dota tourney till now... No Backdooring is a Noob Rule... For once i would like to see people stop complaining and start thinking about what they can do to counter or prevent themselves from being backdoor... Creating rules to make the game more convenient for urself is BASICALLY ONE OF THE DUMBEST THINGS I THINK.
and Yes Yes... Feel Free to flame Me..
All i have to say is, Learn to Adapt to the rules and stop complaining...
Sorry ya if this post a bit lansi but its the truth...
I Appologize to all the people this offend but its a fact...
Pro Gaming is all about adapting to the changes made...

As for SMM n WCG my suggestion would be that you guys should try to organize a minor meet up with a few selected leaders/gamers from experienced dota teams to discuss on the rules... Maybe just 3-4 People... Icons in the Dota community which are known and respected... No Point placing it on the forum because it will turn out to be a never ending story with everyone posting their comments...

yup, basically all 3 rules that nles mentioned are already non existence in other countries highest level DOTA league like CAL & MYM.

these 3 rules not only waste precious time , it give a way for losing team to find an excuse to DQ winning teams, at the same time, also lower the standard of gameplay in a DOTA match, i totally support WooWoo point on these rules are there to make the game more easy and convenient for players of a lower standard and experience.

as for the debate on normal pick Vs AP, since the Asia Championship is hosted by Singapore, and they enjoyed AP so much, we just have to folow suits for this particular tourney.....
for those normal pick supporters, rest assured that if the worldwide WCG ever take on DOTA as official game, the game mode certainly will be normal pick and not the AP mode that singapore enjoyed so much, this is because the major western DOTA community in US & Europe all supports normal pick as tournament mode,

This post has been edited by synzo: Jul 26 2006, 12:51 PM

Still it is very hard to control,
i think u also know that sentinel site, 1 of the 3 spot on top
even u ward on the other side of the river
the ward will stll disturbing the neutral creep

actually i have enough for the stress of the warding issue throughout malaysia
to some extend i need to apologise to the team that have penalised by me
haha
i got no choice

good point of view
do i know u?
i think so

cool down Woo, hehe
i ll try to arrange a small meeting with WCG ppl
hope thing will goes well
if there are a need
i ll try to get some leader out for meeting.

cheers

Ian_mok, WCG marshal meeting will be at 3pm today, u interested in coming? lolx.
I'll be heading to office right now.

I've mentioned before, i feel that teams cannot backdoor unfairly anymore since they can only attack in sequence. Therefore, the next point of attack is usually the three outermost towers or buildings. Hence, it is pretty easy to identify where to defend by using wards.

Backdoor rules were useful only during version 5. e.g. a bone with mkb,bkb,burize can walk right into the base and hit the throne or barracks without hitting any towers at all. And there was no town portal scroll to purchase at v5, which makes backdooring very unfair and game turning.

In conclusion i would like the backdooring rules to be abolished because it is obselete and it just brings too much confusion to players.

About the warding issue, i feel that it is very difficult to penalise teams fairly for warding creeps, hence , it should be abolished as well.

Lets just put the scenario like this, at lvl 1 your opponent buys obs ward + gaunlets and flasks, what is your chen going to buy?? and assume that he spent all his $$ and then he has to farm 750 just to buy a gem, so that he can use his 'normal' spell.

And what is the usefulness of gem when leveling?? almost none, i would rather trade it for bracers and flasks. When u finally get a gem, do you think its safe to go clear ward? Maybe the 1st round of observer wards can be destroyed without much risk, but if your opponent are smart enough, they will buy again and ambush you when you are trying to clear the wards. They will thank you for the gem too All these hassle and risks so that chen can use his normal skill??? Its kinda unfair don't you think?

However, it is very difficult to penalise teams for warding, so i guess its tough luck for chen unless his hero comes with detection skill as well

My gf got this wicked idea about drawing a map where wards cannot be planted and if someone plant their wards there they will be penalised

As for AP or normal pick, I feel that if we are ever going to follow other countries rules and formats then we should just follow CAL since great efforts are being made for DOTA to be made into a Pro Game. They use -leaguemode and they play full game. I feel that Malaysia can incorporate those rules, however, i still prefer 60mins rule where points are calculated to decide the winner.

To make the game as fair as possible, i feel -lm mode should be used, as M4Gi_7 mentioned the fairness about counter drafting to me the other day in -AP games. Its still sentinel vs scourge but it has the elements of counter drafting in it as well.

For those who feel that having a 3rd game is very tiring, time wasting etc, i would suggest that teams play 2 games, alternating from sentinel to scourge, and if the game is tied at 1 a piece, then whichever team that wins by the most points gets the win. i.e. Team 1 won their sentinel match by 20 points while losing their scourge match by 10 points, hence, they are declared winner of the series with because they are positive 10 points. Hence, the point system rule by smm is very fair IMO.

For the game length i feel 60mins is better overall, because the game will be more intense, instead of a farming game. And for the spectators point of view,imagine standing for 90mins watching people farm. Even if its not just farming, its pretty tiring still, and the replays will be quite boring to watch as well. I usually lose concerntration on replays after 60mins

In summary:
Game mode = -LM
Game length = 60mins
Points system used ( kill = 2 points, tower = 5 points, barracks = 8 points )
No backdoor restrictions.
No warding restrictions ( unless there is a map stating where wards cannot be planted )
No bugs exploitation.

I agreed what WoOWoO suggested, the organisers should really invite some of the team leaders to discuss the fairness and appropriateness of the rules

p.s. anyone wanna hire me to be a marshall?? i got no work leh

invite KAOS-Cranky! he is a pro! he can really give good ideas!!

If I not mistaken, isnt that Chen need lv7 in the order to max his creep control skills? So I dont see why must Chen aiming for gem at Lv1.

and I dont see why must Chen going inside jungle for ward-hunting if he dont spot any opposite heroes at the mini-maps.



This guys speak the truth...

isnt that Asian WCG players suppose going to clash against other western country as the time come? If that so, Using -AP definitely is a bad move..

if Asian WCG are not suppose to clash against other country, I guess -AP is okay since Singaporean just love it.

and for those who said Scourge is more powerful than Sentinel in v632, I just dont get it ..Mind to enlight to me ? Because it seem that everyone in western country/tournament dont really have the problem with that version until it need AP mode to balance out the things.

and IF the tournament are using -AP mode, that mean the marshall will decide the winner in 1 game?

My thought About the rule:

Game mode = -LM or Normal Pick
Game length = 60mins~ 75mins
Use SMM scoring system
No backdoor restrictions.
No warding restrictions
No bugs exploitation.

Cant believe this little discussion can be 5 pages long . Seems like Malaysia's DOTA community is filled with dedicated individuals and its nice to see this going on =). Here is a few suggestions:

1. I think the Backdooring issue is pretty much settled . From the views given by top players and reffering to international Dota organiser rules (such as MYM , CAL ) backdooring is pretty much legal and its part of the game.

2. As for warding restrictions , I see no problems for placing the wards anywhere you like .Except for a few individulas in this forums who raise up fear of creep not spawning which will potentially damage Chen's usefulness in the game. May i point out that the Singaporeans themselves knew of this trick long ago and even devised counter warding in the form of sentry wards placed in areas where the placer can fish out the observer wards placed beforehand and destroy it without its own sentry wards affecting creep spawn. An obvious replay of such warding counter can be found in last season's CAL finals when Shaang from Apex who is using Chen placed 3 good sentry wards and destroy Complexity's Dogkaiser's 3 well placed observer wards to counter his creep spawn spots right at the begining of the game. At the aftermath , Shaang explained that they actually painstakingly trained placing sentry wards in training to find out the best "boxes" to plant the sentries so as to not affect the creep spawn and at the same time destroy any wards by the opponent placed to disrupt the creeps from spawning. Players like Shaang definitely researched Dota to its map layout and devised counters to protect his Chen from massive disadvantage. All I want to say , having ward restriction is just adding trouble for gamers and organisers as the debate on whether the ward is intentional and not intentional will go on and on and wreak havoc in an otherwise peaceful competition. Sometimes , the ward will not affect the creeps in Day but it affects them at night ! I say , let the wards be planted freely from now on to avoid any trouble.

3. Referring to my post on backdoor , if your team is strong enough to break the tower or throne for that matter without the help of creeps feel free to do so. This is version 6.32b , and it is totally acceptable to do so everywhere in the world.

4. As for game mode. I noticed Malaysia did a great job in following the footsteps of CAL and MYM in introducing the Senti / Scourge / AP 3 game best of 3 rule. This is a good achievement in my opinion and this should be the long term strategy for the community. Sadly , WCG is now choosing representatives to play in Asian WCG which require -AP draft rules to be used. As i noticed , Singaporeans , Indonesians and Philipinos clans have been playing -AP games quite a while now and they seem to be proud of it. As much as i despise this trend , we should be following the majority in this event now which is to use -AP draft best of 1 game in all WCG related games. This will act as a training for potential teams that will be representing Malaysia in this prestigious event.

5.Another thing worries me . I just browsed the WCG Asia website and it stated that the map used will be 6.34 or later where the international official version for tourneys now is 6.32b. Hope the organisers can change this before the finals.

6.What i am worried also is the quality of the marshalls as many do . My bro was joining a college preliminary and before the game start , the head marshall warned my bro's team not to use "epi blink" on sand king and we all like "what , is this not a 5.84c rule?" . The marshall just said rules is rules and my bro have to oblige. I sincerely hope that this kind of outdated rules be removed for the sake of improving the gaming experience of players.

7.In my opinion , the 6.32b map is perfectly designed to streamline gameplay. We do not need to place unwanted rules on it anymore. The -AP draft , fight till end rule is notable because it saves organisers and players time just like the SMM point and WCG Tower Rule tries to achieve. Other Asian communities just used the -AP draft to achieve what we all try to achieve : SAVE TIME FOR LOCAL AREA NETWORK TOURNEYS.

8. I always agree that the traditional Sent / Scourge / AP 3 game rule is always better in determining skill , but since this is a local tourney , sacrifices must be made. Maybe if one fine day when the ISPs (TMNet included) of all Asia communities reached gaming acceptable standards , we can use the traditional rule for league and online tourneys.

I hope this post can end most of the long winded discussion here =)