This gonna be a little bit long but its complete story of mine.

5 or 6 months ago, my car (Volkswagen Beetle which still under Volkswagen warranty for 2 to 3 years) was having engine unstable and going to stop by itself, so i decided to take my car had a visit to Goh Brothers Motor sdn bhd located at Sungai Penang, Pulau Penang. I was able to bring my car there after quite a number of appointment with them. This is the first time i sent my car there, at the next day they told me the problem caused by my carbon sensor, they told me it just require to clean the sensor. So i believed and ask them to do so. After two days i went to collect my car, by the time i left the service center, the problem still exist. So i called and do another appointment, Goh side replied that i have to wait for 2 to 3 weeks. But it took me 1 month to took my car to the service center again. The second time i sent my car there and told the same problem, they told me to clean the carbon sensor again. But this time the problem seems to solved. Until days before 2nd of September, the engine of my car started to unstable.

At the noon of 2nd September (heavy rain), suddenly my cars' brake paddle stuck and i couldn't brake, the engine stop and smoke came out from front left of my car. So i called the Volkswagen Roadside Assistance, which promise will arrive in 90 minutes but end up i was waiting for them for 4 hours. After towed to Sungai Pinang Volkswagen service center, i called and they told me to let me know what happen to my car at the next day. They did not call me at 3th September, so i called them again at 4th September, Goh side told me they were still troubleshooting problem for my car, and will call back. After one day waiting, i called them back at 5th September, they told me the cause of my problem is from my battery. I argued with them said that smoke came out from my car and the brake paddle stuck had nothing related to my battery some more the battery was new one, but they insist it was my battery problem. And left me no choice have to accept what they told me, so i request them to take any battery to test in my car, they told me if i wanna test, i have to pay for the new battery because they do not have any battery that can test. So i called the person i bought the battery to have me a replacement, after changed the battery my car finally start up. They told me that the problem of smoke came out from my engine and brake paddle stuck is actually all doing good and no problem at all.

So i went to collect my car at Friday, at Friday night (heavy rain) after 45 minutes when i almost reach the parking of my condo, my engine idle unstable again and feel like gonna stop, in order to prevent engine dead i have to step on my gas paddle constantly. Then my brake paddle stuck again, its totally malfunction. Luckily i did not involved in any road accident. It was 12:30am, so i decided to take my car to the service center the next morning. The next morning my car couldn't start up after 10 minutes of trying, so i called Volkswagen Roadside Assistance again, they promised will arrive in 60 minutes. ( File number is : X113061321 } I left my car key to my security guards so they could pick up my car when they arrive, i can't wait for them because i was going to attend an important meeting. After around 1 hour, someone called me they collect my car but they told me my car can start up and they will tow to the service center anyhow. At the same day afternoon, i went to the service center and i was tried to explain to them what i experienced, this condition of my car may cause me to involve into road accident which may risk my life. They said they will start troubleshooting for the problem, end up i wait for them to answer me until 11th of September, i called them to ask, the person in charge name En. Kurma, he keep telling me they are still checking and promised to call me back but never.

After that he called me and told me the problem was my brake pad and disc rotor, i was confused and told him it has nothing to do with the pad and rotor as the problem not brake not gripping but paddle malfunction, but they insisted and told me to change the brake pad, disc rotor and brake fluid which cost me around RM1,100.00 and i reject since i ask other technician as the told me this incident only will occur when the brake pump or something called vacuum malfunction and my car still under warranty. At 13th of September i visit the service center again and i wish to talk with Kurma face to face, but end up fail to met him. So i request to meet the technician who in charge my car, maybe he understand what happening to my car. The technician name some sort of Ah Yuan, i told him everything and told him to update me directly because i have lost faith in En. Kurma since he never update me and failed to follow up at all. I called them again at 17th of September due to nobody update me at all, so i called and talk with Ah Yuan in the line and he told me that i must change my brake fluid around RM200++ and i accepted. Another problem that caused my aircond having leaking noises after incident of 2nd of September, if i wanted to fix it i will only able to collect my car at 24th September but i already told them i must collect my car at 20th September. But i have no choice i have to collect my car at 24th of September.

At 24th September i did not receive call from Goh side, so i called them and they told me that i must wait until 27th due to waiting aircond cooling coil to arrive and i have to bear cost of the aircond gas refilling around RM100++, i have to accept it. But at 27th September En. Kurma called me and told me i cant collect my car because of cooling coil haven't arrive, i told them to explain everything to me and give me an exact date to collect my car but he couldn't answer me. So i complaint to Volkswagen Malaysia, person in charge of my case name Ms. Jessy. I told her everything and she said she will update me with my car status in the same day. But until 1st of October, both Goh Brothers Motor sdn bhd and Volkswagen Malaysia did not gave me any response. So i called Kurma again since he never call back, he told me most probably i can only collect it as early 13th October, i refused and ask him to lend me car as i having transportation problem but he told me he cant decide, he told me he would discuss with his branch manager and will give me a call but never. And i called Volkswagen Malaysia and spoke to Jessy again and told her everything again, i request to talk to their technical department o discuss about brake paddle stuck and engine idling unstable but Jessy told me all technician were not available. She promised me will contact me at the next day, but never. So i call her back the next day (2nd October) but her colleague told me Jessy was engaged for many times, they ask me to left note to Jessy so she could call me back but until now still haven't call me back. Then i call Kurma to get updated of my car status and the request of lending a car but Kurma was engaged for many times, i asked them to call me back but never.

I had been wait for the whole and siting here typing this helpless and hopeless. I still have to pay for installment, which cost me RM2000 per month. And now i have to rent a car which cost me RM100 per day. But the biggest concern is even after collect my car the problem of my brake and engine problem already risk my life and i really helpless now. I tried to talk with experienced technician they told me it could me wiring malfunction due to those incident (brake vacuum, engine idling unstable, battery totally discharged and cooling coil leaking at the same moment) were in raining day. So i believe its short circuit of the wiring system. I am already lost faith in Volkswagen servicing and the worst Goh Brothers Motor Sdn Bhd. Please let me know what should i do.

have u called VW malaysia and explain this situation?

Is this the new volkswagen beetle or the previous model?

He did.

This stupid Goh Bro can go to hell...no better in bkt tengah area....

This is how an incompetent support team handle customer: make them run around and wait.

Yes i called, even Volkswagen Malaysia are useless.

Previous generation bro.

Really speechless about this incident.

Volkswagen cars are utter crap in terms of reliability ... nuff said ..

1.2 polo at home is jerking and vibrating when in low gear and the replacement DSG can only be done January next year.. sigh

The VW M'sia and Goh are excellent "tai-chi" players.

Sometimes i think they just don't have the bandwidth to handle the number of complaints and fixing the issues ..

your experience (engine dead just b4 reaching condo on friday night) sounds similar to my situation when crankshaft position sensor is dead (but mine no 'smoke' in engine bay). I have only seen water vapor from radiator cap, so is it overheated? Besides, not sure if it is related to rain (water) which wet/shorted some circuit.

At least you guys clearly know what happeb to your car. Mine they cant even tell me what is really goes wrong. And never update me.

So this DSG problem is still persist? When I test drove the Passat last month, the sales lady said that all later models are okay. Luckily Passat rear seats are not as spacious as Accord or M6, otherwise I've opted for Passat.

until very recently, they are the only dealer for VW in Penang, no competition

Honestly speaking, replacing the DSG doesn't even convince me that it will solve the problem. How do I know because I have colleague who replace the gearbox and yet he still experience some juddering, jerking and the car feels like it wants to dies off during low gears... and the car definitely feel less responsive as previously, I believe they tune the gearbox to be less agressive

Serious. I agree that they can't have even technician or manpower to cope with their customers.

Not just in Penang even in klang valley I have problems with their customer serive even simple thing they can just give me an answer.

My problem, I booked mechatronic replacement 7th oct but unfortunately my car got banged so have to send back to glenmarie for bodywork repair on 30 sept until 4th sept 2013.

So I think I wanna have the parts transfer to glenamrie from jalan 223. Even this request they can gimme an answer whether yes or not. I request on the 30th until now no news. Tried call back always engaged. Look for person in charge always not around. Like no need to work like dat. Drop a call back note but never call back.

Really arr..? How come still so many VW on the roads... I'm just wondering.

I have a friend who is just utterly smitten with the Scirocco, so much so that the main purpose of her salaried job is to one day allow her to afford one.

Even after I told her that there is a very high chance that the DSG will kaput one day (she's eyeing the TSI trim), she answers that it doesn't matter, her burning desire to own one outweigh the risk of a gearbox failure and if it does happen and if she dies in an accident due to the DSG failing, she'll accept it.

I cannot brain her explanation.... rofl...

Drive VW = means Very Wealthy

ya. sometimes it ridiculous. last time i had a problem with my glove box, it was stuck. and they set me an appointment month after that wtf. then i just go to some random workshop with a RM10 labour. 5mins siap. lol

@BlackForce

You can send your car for me to diagnose next time

This is ridiculous, styling and life which are more important? Scirocco 1.4 with that price actually i can get many great car from other brand. Absolutely not from VW.

if any one u want to know...

jessy is one of the 2 customer service dept people in VGM.
the other being her direct manager who will not answer any calls or reply any mails...
everything is done by jessy... and yes she do have some kind of attitude problem too...

in a way i pity her for doing everything but after seeing her attitude first hand, i would say she deserved it in a way... another typical pretty face with an attitude example...

This do not happen with VW cars alone .It happen to other luxury cars too . The reason for this is that todays luxury cars is more sopisticated with many parts . Old cars have fewer parts so that why old cars like Iswara , Nissan 130Y , Toyota Corolla are much more reliable than todays luxury cars .

.

dam it,the worst part is u still need to pay RM2k every month for the car loan.i feel you bro.

Got pic?

VW = People's Car in Germany.

Prettt much like Proton in Malaysia. So why do people look up to VW? Because price.

Despite that, the manual Jetta GLI is very nice.

why don't copy this thread's link and paste it on VW Malaysia's FB page?? and see how they respond

TS described engine related problem right ?, we are not talking about Dsg,? Sigh.... 2nd pacing in 2013 JD power Customer Service Index, and like this, no wonder every body go back and stick to T&H

Great info for all... thanks a lot for your story. Many people don't realize till they found this. Really appreciate it, thanks BlackForce.

Is Wing Hin Autohaus any better?

This post has been edited by m0r31d8ng3l: Oct 3 2013, 08:07 AM

I suggest you email to VW international. As they dont accept this lousy services. As far as i know VW is really reliable. To this to happen must be rare. Keep us updated ya bro. Try this email to
compliance@volkswagen.de .

http://www.volkswagenag.com/content/vwcorp...+of+Conduct.pdf


http://en.volkswagen.com/en/tools/navigati...t/worldmap.html

Fixed.

German makes rank the lowest in the most recent reliability index (2013 Jan). Sos

"Among the 15 brands included in the 2013 study, BMW ranks highest in overall customer service satisfaction for a third consecutive year, with a score of 817. Volkswagen (793) ranks second, followed by Honda and Mazda in a tie (786 each). Mitsubishi (765) achieves the highest improvement among all brands, with a 34-point increase." - source http://paultan.org/2013/08/15/j-d-power-af...es-in-malaysia/

very different from the after sales satisfaction study report..VW ranks 2nd in the report. i thought that premium/expensive cars is also coming with premium after/sales assistance. also don't understand why they charge you consumables and other things because, it is the car's engine (or other problems) that causes the lost of your brake fluid for example. its not that you went for regular service. somemore still under warranty.

very appreciate if TS can update any news/wayforward, will be following this thread..

This post has been edited by efaceninja: Oct 3 2013, 08:28 AM

Noobsss

German QUALITY Speaks for ITSELF

How about VW Jetta? Test Drive feel very good

The gearbox failure/defective hardly come during the test drive but after certain mileage.

BMW is using ZF 8-speed gearbox, certainly a safer move IMO.

I mean the after sales service not durable of the car.
My friend's bmw sent to fix for fews days and bmw borrow him a 7 series. His car is a 3 er.

Agree

Saw few jetta dsg malfunction cant drive need to tow into workshop

Engine reliability - top 10 brands according to Warranty Direct
1. Honda (failure rate: 1 in 344)
2. Toyota (failure rate: 1 in 171)
3. Mercedes-Benz (failure rate: 1 in 119)
4. Volvo (failure rate: 1 in 111)
5. Jaguar (failure rate: 1 in 103)
6. Lexus (failure rate: 1 in 101)
7. Fiat (failure rate: 1 in 85)
8. Ford (failure rate: 1 in 80)
9. Nissan (failure rate: 1 in 76)
10. Land Rover (failure rate: 1 in 72)

Engine reliability - bottom 10 brands according to Warranty Direct
1. MG Rover (failure rate: 1 in 13)
2. Audi (failure rate: 1 in 27)
3. Mini (failure rate: 1 in 40)
4. Saab (failure rate: 1 in 40)
5. Vauxhall (failure rate: 1 in 41)
6. Peugeot (failure rate: 1 in 44)
7. BMW (failure rate: 1 in 45)
8. Renault (failure rate: 1 in 46)
9. Volkswagen (failure rate: 1 in 52)
10. Mitsubishi (failure rate: 1 in 59)

that 's it, as I said, go back buying T&H

i think they knew the problem from complaints all over the world. but make the customer round around and lost hope in claiming warranty from them.why ??? money , money , money
same ol story just like our favourite local car maker .

anyway i pity you TS.

The Jetta is good. Refined and quiet. A friend is driving one and so far no issues.

I guess I made a good decision to go for Accord instead of Passat based on the above report

another typical example of a VW owner's nightmare.

You can give me all the high tech stuffs and everything, but in exchange i have to go through all this?
- Sensors failure
- All the safety specs but failures on brakes/engines in the middle of the road is steering me to an expressway to hell
- Unreturned calls to SC/CS? WTF? Pay so much and Proton's customer service level?
- Under warranty but still being charged for repairing my car? What bu11shit is this?
- Months of waiting for a part replacement? What if car cannot be driven until the part is replaced? I have to take the bus/lrt for months after paying a premium price tag?
- I have to repeatedly visit your SC to get the SAME problem fixed?

This is ridiculous!
Don't talk to me about your high tech stuffs before proving your reliability, and your respect after pocketing my money for after sales service.

This post has been edited by dtna7: Oct 3 2013, 10:06 AM

you bet!

it's using the same GB. Pray. Pray really hard.

oldest trick in servis line
change the easy part first that no relate to the problem

if i were in your shoes, make this bigger with the power of media...
post at VW Malaysia official fb...

Haha, bro I do not think you are the only victim, my friend also kena one time like your case, he was driving the Polo, engine keep giving him problem, and the 5 years warranty is useless, everything also have to pay until he has no choice, but driven to trade in another car and he swear no more VW in future. VW = normal brand like Japanese, but premium cost of maintenance, quality also lousy like local car, I think most of the VW owner also facing one common problem, the dashboard rattling noise after 1-2 yrs of ownership, especially those used to park their car under direct sunlight!

the only reliable VW car is polo sedan..u dont have to worry bout DSG

And that is why I sold of my VW Golf........spent too much time at the service centers instead of work

If i were you, ill write to their HQ, letting them know how incompetant the Malaysian VW is running .

But but ..... it seems the TS is using the older version of Beetle wor, if not mistaken.

That one comes with 1.6 engine, and mated to 6 speed gearbox. That model (2G beetle) has overheating problem due to the grill opening is too small for cool air to flow in. For normal outskirt drive not much issue but in big city with jam and congestions, it tends to overheat. Once that happen many electronics parts can fail.

Don't draw pre-conclusion to pin point it to DSG or MU.

that's why i tell ppl many time. Volkswagen is The Rakyat's Car in Germany. It's an el-cheapo car but overpriced in malaysia. yet many ppl banggala.jpg can drive this conti car. the price u paid can get an entry level bmw 320i or the bmw 316i... the bmw service is PREMIIUM ! get audi or merz also better (if u can afford more).

so, SAY NO TO VOLKSWAGEN KERETA RAKYAT JELATA. it's like a proton sold at same price with honda accord.

Bro,

you have a strong case. File a case with Consumer Tribunal. It only costs RM5 and you will get a court hearing within 1 week, and you can claim up to 25k.

Claim for all the damsges, towing etc.

Once you get a trial date, fax to Goh brothers and VW HQ, i guarantee they will call you to settle b4 the hearing, cos the tribunal usually sides with the consumer

usually even the threat of a consumer tribunal case would get VW HQ to contact you back fast fast

This post has been edited by jwrx: Oct 3 2013, 11:36 AM

just tell ur frens to boikot VW can dy la.. when sales drop, VW germany sure question and change dealer

I 100% agree with this. Rather than running back and forth between SC and VW showroom/whatever, better to get into a lil bit of 'hassle' to lodge this case to Tribunal.

can summarize mar? plssss

The DSG issue wasn't raised by the TS but it was raised by few owners in this thread who shared their experiences driving VW. DSG does indeed has problem, even the SA that attended me during test drive told me about this. It is a known problem with mechatronics stuffs she said.

To TS:

http://ttpm.kpdnkk.gov.my/portal/index.php/en/

Good luck, hope your problem gets resolved soon.

Sometime I really kesian those VW owner, paid so much money thinking VW is in the same class as the BMW, Merz, Audi, but ended up like getting a normal car like same quality as our local made! TS, make a police report first, then consumer tribunal and then sell it and get at least BMW Audi Merceded if really want to enjoy Continental luxury, else just get a Japanese car and the quality can beat the VW hands down anytime, especially in South East Asia Weather!

regardless of the super good after sales service of VW, in malaysia people will still rush to buy VW because it give them a "higher-level" feel compared to those KIA's, Perodua's, Pug etc out there...

and it is exactly because of this mentality that VGM don't care about customer satisfaction...

but then when u think about it, customer service is non-existent in this part of the world anyway...

Eh ok la, I had 7 good years with Toyota. Their CS actually quite decent, lol.

Very true. They feel upper abit.

So what has TS done so far? Has this been published on the VW Malaysia FB page yet?

i think TS's VW is not DSG but since a few forumners mentioned it, a quick google found this:
already 1 death claimed/reportedly to be related to "VW suddenly stopped on highway" at Australia. read here:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-12/volk...-recall/4747694
VW Aus denies it:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/31/...E94U07W20130531

my sis previously also got the same problem like this, but she's lucky enough to caught the attention of VW Malaysia GM. Try this, spam their FB with comments, and also check their website and e-mail to each and every dept regarding the complaints.

Hope it work out for you as well.

wow sound like a lot of work, but can we know what VW Malaysia GM's response was, curious and would be good as experience sharing

car settled within 2 days, with direct response from the Service Centre Manager call up that day itself. But my sis works with legal firm, so might be threatening them a bit help.

*its from VW Centre Chan Sow Lin

This post has been edited by Janick1437: Oct 3 2013, 02:51 PM

Yes VW sc is horrible. Very slow and always hv to book appt 1 mth in advance. And claim warranty for the dsg took ages especially at cergaz .

Even the VW Malaysia fb is hopeless. If u ask them about buying a car, they will reply damn fast.

If u ask them about warranty all, they will take ages to reply. And after u waited ages, they give u a stupid number to call.

I called up and screwed them b4. But no improvement. I have 2 VWs now but sorry to say, these 2 will be the first n last!

If I were u, i will go and make a scene at the SC. If nt nothing gets done!

write a letter to VW group. Address is to VW headquaters in germany, send copy to VW malaysia
actually ask someone else to write for you. your england not very good
your problem will be resolved

my colleague was experiencing similar problems with his BMW, but after he wrote a nice letter, everything was suddenly solved. they even replaced some major parts in his car for free

What makes you feel that people drives VW feels upper abit?

I am also having problem with VW Juru. Still waiting for my booking refund after 3 months. Call Sales Manager dont care and dont reply back call.

lawyer - scary lawyer or legal lingo laden letters (so many L's!) works

Actually, my Proton SC very good....called me when my order parts available, help me to do advance claim for Service voucher etc.



TS: There is no point arguing with VW anymore, raise the case to Small Consumer tribunal. Very high chance you will win, there have been many cases with cars before. Just make sure all your repairs by VW is properly documented as proof.

seriously respect
Show them who is the boss !!!:flex:

For me too, used to own Avanza for 6 yrs, SC quite ok lah. Changed my wife car to Alza, even Perodua SC is quite ok.

Err...in TS case, first the car is 2nd hand, might be lemon (I know VW might have lots of lemon due to DSG). Secondly, I felt it's more the inability of the Service Center to properly diagnose and pin-point the root cause. Thirdly, customer service is suc..k big time

Actually with the big profit margin VW Malaysia (or the respective cronies etc) have, they can easily solve the first and biggest problem by adopting the less problematic 6 speed DSG instead of the 4 speed ones. Many no brainers on top it seems. Like bee end...

This post has been edited by amdxp: Oct 3 2013, 04:02 PM

Berapa kali mau cakap, a VW to Germany is what a Proton is to Malaysia. Want to buy a VW, buy la, just don't go overboard and worship it for something it is not. What premium? What luxury?

When discussing problems with a VW car, it is done matter-of-factly, often with minimal curses and swearing. As if people are a bit hesitant to hurl the same verbal treatment like what they've been giving Proton. Why? Because you're dealing with a German brand, suddenly you're a bit restrained with your words ah?

Imagine if a Proton car suffers from a widespread gearbox failure like that, complete with a runaround after-sales service like that. All hell will break loose la, I tell you. All the bashing and the profanity will come raining down like there's no tomorrow. On a lucky day, some racial slurs might even get thrown into the mix.

I still wait for the day VW Malaysia receives the same bashing that Proton gets from the masses. They both deserve it, but so far only one gets it.

wow .. seem proton in middle yeah.. ^^ .. or they are not inside list . lol

same spec same class but more expensive?

VW SC same like Proton SC? funny...

eyh...y proton came into picture? ekekeke

a quick look at VW Malaysia FB page, almost every promotion picture that they post, its full of complain after sales comment, lol.

He is quite well-off anyway. It's less than a year car and covered under warranty, so not too much of an issue I guess.

I don't own a Proton... but have visited service centre several time for friend car and even help to sent friend car to Proton SC for service... no problem in the customer service... no problem

Why not u check at other SC?

Already complaint to vw germany, and national consumer complaint department. Both already replied me so far. I think gonna complaints to Consumer Tribunal liao. Status, no updates from them. The car not dsg version, its previous generation one.

Expect worse after warranty ended.

2.0 6spd got these problems?

Few years ago, VW topped the J.D Power survey. Not anymore.

http://paultan.org/2013/10/01/jd-power-sal...ion-index-2013/

Also, VW runs its turbo unit so high that the engine itself has very low tolerance
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/9...ity-survey.html

That is why Honda & Toyota will always win with conventional NA engines with simple gearbox setup. I still think DSG is the wrong way to go. CVT better, aside from the rubber band feel and you need to be very patient driving a CVT car.

This is sales satisfaction index (SSI) study, i have commented in that article

Energy Analyst on Oct 01, 2013 at 11:15 am
this is SSI. it is about Sales experience (from visiting the showroom to have the car delivered)
Please read CSI August 2013 which to me is more meaningful as it measure the after sales service.
http://paultan.org/2013/08/15/j-d-power-af...es-in-malaysia/


And who was that at no 2---VW!!! just behind BMW, above T&H , mind you this survey is also from JD power , Aug 2013

This post has been edited by EnergyAnalyst: Oct 4 2013, 06:08 AM

To be honest. I am driving a Mk6 golf gti. Sometimes i do feel that i paid RM215K and was getting a hatchback where as i could easily could had gotten a luxury 3 series around the brackeet or an Audi 1.8T at that time.

I am unsure if you are mentioning that VW is same class with the sub luxury cars or maybe comparing to other sub entry continental cars?

how is it sub class when the GTI is using a engine that was first developed for AUDI's and a DSG gear box which also share it's common blue print with the DPK porsche gearbox or bugattis gearbox?

But then what made me choose the GTI was it's pure power and i always knew what i wanted from the start. So i think it is really unfair to say that people choose VW because they feel atas. I am offended.

This post has been edited by ConmanHunter: Oct 4 2013, 08:47 AM

bro, usually those problem come out around what mileage?
if problem occurs exactly like ts case, then very dangerous
now worry about family golf tsi bought last year

Thanks for reminding us that this JD Power survey is bullshit.

this is scary.. to learn about terrible service experience in malaysia.

i have intention to purchase a used golf gti which is under warranty after owning a powershift dual clutch car for awhile.

with great technologies come great service hassle it seems.

anyone can advise otherwise on the gti mk6 model?

Gti mk6 uses a wet clutch 6 speed DSG. As far as I know, no issues or at least minimal problems with the mechatronics

I totally agree with your statement. I bought a Golf not because it feels upclass but because of the drive and feel was superb as compared to the Honda Civic 2.0 and Altis which I was considering side by side.