"There is a need to trace the nests to particular house in case of disease outbreak etc. (Which is fair I think)"
Got to be kidding me...disease outbreak from EBN????
If it's even possible, that's a shortcoming of the processor isn't it?
Why get BH operators into this bureaucracy?

http://www.dlm.gov.my/birdnest/
If you look over their site...all the consumer has to rely on is a label with serial nos....
All these silliness just so the consumer has a label to check on the origin?
Customers are not interested in the origin...they want to know they have unadulterated EBN.
Serial nos can easily be duplicated and consumers do not always have a means to verify them anyways.
This is an overkill!!!
A simple and elegant solution to all these is just a little more proactive enforcement.

All these will not detract from the fact that some folks are not doing their jobs and if they do they mess it up further.

There is also a comment that harvesting has to be done with govt officer's presence!!!!
So we now have to work on THEIR time table too??
What utter nonsense!!!!!

All these unnecessary processes and additional bureaucracy will degenerate into the Bh operators having to bear the consequence of non compliance of a non value add process in the 1st place.

Me think they can't see the forest for the trees....

Even if for a moment I put aside my revulsion for all these...
See the breakdown in the traceability?
They seem more proud that WE are the 1st to implement traceability...
I would cower and hide with shame!!!!

"5. Retail Outlet
Whilst MEBNOTS will not cover traceability down to the door step of the retailer in China,
nevertheless the system will be user friendly and ubiquitous enough to enable to a multitude of
other retailers to combine their track and trace systems to the MEBNOTS and the MATS in order to
maintain the door to door traceability."


This post has been edited by Cergau: Sep 28 2011, 11:59 PM

ya ahh?...how come the culprits are processors n not farmers but they chose to trace us? they should have set up a QA/QC dept in each factory and put DVS or VET officers there to guard the place and do 100% checked in order to guarantee quality of nests export to China mah?....Right?...

but then actually govt also do a lot for us. they willing to pay RM20millions to set up this trace system for farmers..and what farmers need to fork out is just to buy the GPS tracker from the CONSULTANT of Trace system..the price not reveal yet but if google overseas prices..i think about RM600 a unit...

so, 50,000 farms and each buy one unit :

total : RM60,000,000.00










wah lau!!!......fat loh!!.....ai ya.....how come we never think of that too!...aiya....sudah lambat...really good biz leh....all the suppliers are now millionaire's liao...

---

Added on September 29, 2011, 8:02 amVET themselves many many years ago assured the govt that swiftlets do not carry any diseases at all..so, why need to trace where it farms?

---

Added on September 29, 2011, 8:04 amall this is due to Red Nests scandal so it is the processors that we need to monitor, why need to spend 20millions then?

---

Added on September 29, 2011, 8:12 amin order to assure the quality of bird's nests, what the DVS/Vet need to do is, to request all processors that they need to submit samples to be tested for nitrite level or they need to set up a lab to do the test every day. depends on how many shifts they operate, if they work round the clock with three shifts then they need to collect samples to do the test. and attached the test report when they ship it to china.
they will need to keep the records n samples for at least 2 years.

but talk k so long, do we need to do all this? if cook liao...nitrite level already zero what!... bird's nests are not end products, still need to cook before makan ahh....ai ya.....better go back meditate...`lu ting'.....oommmm...

---

Added on September 29, 2011, 8:14 ambefore lu ting...hmm....seems liked the trend now goes to finish product where customers can just open n makan.....bird's nests tablets or in bottles...hmm....

This post has been edited by ChanK: Sep 29 2011, 08:14 AM

Excellent points all the way Cergau
..So far all your contribution to this thread has been par excellence.......... bar none !!!!!!!!!!!!
...they think all bird house operators are like rich home owner millionaire Singaporeans............so the scheming starts........duh !!!!
wtf..............these birds are gregarious and the young ones huddle in many different houses in a single day ........triple whammy ***
......processors should go for branding lah like the brand your pisang initiative.............just can't help it but.... niamah

I agree with you that we already have sufficient laws to cover all but whether anyone to enforce them or that money can and I know that money do talk and they really well can as we all know too well.
talk
So, be creating a new Law will only put more opportunities and cash into the people who are going to enforce the Law. As usual, new Laws will only create havoc and money missing from our pocket into someone else pockets.......like my son once said about my Rm50 note.....Dad, your Rm50 just flow out of the window with the P******.

So, be prepare for more burden and cost if you intend to start new BH cos your present budget didn't include the extra cost.

The MOA/DVS must be seen to be doing their respective jobs. These ideas though not entirely original, are implemented hopefully to safeguard the EBN Industry. If it works it will no doubt be good for Malaysian EBN.

What the MOA/DVS fail to address is the practicality of the whole project. Right from initial implementation, subsequent and continued enforcement to the continuous and immediate support required especially in the initial phase to iron out all the associated teething problems. MOA/DVS has to ask itself whether they have the capability to undertake such a massive project.

This system is similar to the Postal/Courier systems that are in place successfully for many years now.

IMHO For us BH owners, if DVS supplies specially marked boxes to each and every productive BH, related hardware for barcode reader, software and internet connection to the central mainframe, it might be a good move, but it will fail horribly if BH owners are to be charged a premium, instead of a subsidized price for the hardware and software. FOC will of course be counter productive.

It may also deter thieves as it will not be easy to move unregistered nests.

Of course end users will not be interested where exactly the nests come from but it will be assuring to know that they are receiving a 'strictly' GOM controlled product.

The processors and packagers will gain from their branding and with good marketing it should further enhance their sales.

As with all 'good' ideas, implementation will be difficult enough with the cooperation of everyone, if we do not agree and cooperate, it will be impossible for MOA/DVS to go far. So, in actual fact, MOA/DVS may introduce anything they want, ultimately, it won't work if we do not want it to.

We as BH owners and EBN processors, packagers and exporters must look to the future on how to safeguard our investments and not let other players sabotage our sweat and tears.

First, we must spread the fact that Malaysian EBN is pure. Malaysian EBN from selected brands are guaranteed pure and adhering to all universally accepted processing and packaging requirements.

Just back from PutraJaya..left early before the end to avoid the commuter rush hour.

1)My observation...MOH seem sincere in wanting to resolve the issue with China
2)They claim to be in touch with their Chinese counterparts...and are enforcing our existing food safety regulations to comply with the Chinese requirement of 0 PPM for the stuff. The Fed Assoc have reiterated that that stuff occur naturally in raw EBN (this require you guys to verify) and 0ppm is not achievable. MOH claim that they have indicative positive response with their Chinese counterpart for 1 ppm....yet to be confirmed.
3)MOH officials presented
0)the relevant laws empowering them
0)necessary certification as part of compliance to the enforcement of the Food Act 1983 for processing plants.
0)Subsequent to plant certification, each shipment a Health Cert is required which require lab sample analysis.....these is in addition to existing DVS requirement of a similar cert.
Majority of attendees were processors or BH operators/cum processors.

Only 2 BH operators specific concerns were raised
1)request that the traceability RFID box be made freely available and not be monopolised.
2)Traceability was clarified and confirmed is a requirement of the Chinese govt and already exist in our local laws....that means the RFID and GPS thingy may be heaped upon us. When challenged by an attendee on the limitation of the proposed process/system....MOH clarified their interest is 1 UP and 1 DOWN....ie where you got it and where you are moving it to next.....also an MCMC staff interrupted the proceeding and claim the what we read from the papers are misleading. We will just have to wait & see....

Exporters repeatedly request for rationalisation of the various depts requirement which are confusing the exporters ontop of not being able to export to China the last few mths. This pleading for govt help was still going on when I left.

As far as I see, if the GOV is sincere in wanting to solve the problem, control the export of nests from the country in any ways possible and allowable.
Heavy penalties and even jail sentences to those involved in shipping fake or adulterated nests.

When they control the export, the buyers, sellers, exporters and manufacturers will abide by the regulations and they will only buy real nests to process without using chemical or breaching agents. So, without needing to control too much and cause hardship to the providers of swiftlets sanctuaries which many are poor kampung raayat. Having too many restrictions at the BHs will only hamper the development of the industry.
I can foresee that the control of BH will be a failure cos there are really too many thousands to control and many hundreds are going to start soon or in the process of wanting to do one. I hope that I am wrong but will bet on it anytime that I am right. Control the buyers and processing plants will be the better option to take at the moment.

If the buyers and processing plants insist on certain standards otherwise they will need to pay heavy fines or banned from dealing in EBN , the BH owners will automatically need to toe the line and ensure that their nests pass the requirements of the buyers.

Just like recently, the oil palms hit high and alots of Oil Palm owners harvested the fruits before they are ripe to make fast money and therefore the factories make losses in processing the fruits. As we know that green oil palm bunches are useless and have no oil so the the factory insist on ripe fruits or else they will be rejects unlike previously, discount which doesn't serve any purpose. The planters need to be teach a lesson not to try to cheat and got caught, all will be lost. Control at the buying station and all will be well and by the way, it wasn't our nests having problem in China in the first place, right??????

Like other departments, it about time that departments concerned in this industry help to develop better quality nests, better yield and safer method of ranching. Just my talk talk as usual.

This post has been edited by West Wing: Sep 29 2011, 07:03 PM

Thank you for your report.

It is indeed heartening to know that someone who does not yet have a BH, has taken the trouble to attend this meeting and even more so to report to this forum so soon after. Bottle of wine for you when we meet.

What is your assessment of the representation from the EBN industry? Do you think this industry was well represented, and by intelligent, knowledgeable reps from all corners of MY ?

Thank you again.

Hi Sifus & Fellow Members

I attended the butrajaya talk. it seems that they sent out invitation letter to existing processor and exporters. I disguised myself as representing my uncle and they insist I wrote down as farmer.

Whenever pioneers (e.g. dato beh) brought up existing problems, the MOH Mdm knew all problems. Unfortunately, no solutions were given. Afraid EBN matters will ended up like the export of seafood to EU which was delay for almost 2 years.

The funny thing is that nothing mention how MOH is going to address the Nitrate ppm. This issue can only be solved between G2G. Hope some Datos with strong connection can speed up the MOH to solve the issue very soon. MOH is trying to convince China to accept 1ppm. But can our EBN has such low ppm

God Bless Malaysia Boleh Nest Industries.

Cheers

You and the wine are welcome

When I registered at the entrance, I noticed that attendance was by invitation as they had their names already printed on the attendance sheet.
And being an EBN 'processor'/MOH dialog, the majority were 'processors' and almost all issues raised pertained to exporting.
But...the slides states "DIALOG BERSAMA INDUSTRI SARANG BURUNG WALIT"
There were outspoken reps from Kelantan and Sarawak and of course we had the Fed Assoc people present..also vocal.
Some who spoke didn't state their hometown.
Given that some present must have been both BH operators and processors...it was surprising so few BH specific issues were raised.
I am beginning to sense that BH specific issues will only be raised on a best effort basis with the current representation and scenario and maybe even going forward.

u are one lucky chap not to own a farm yet...envy u...

but not really a good biz for retirement plan, u wouldn't get this type of advice from those already in this biz..all will tell how lucrative n how attractive n how easy it is.....but hope u did bought lands though....land prices already goes up double what it worth one year ago after the new highway link opened...

so far only selangor asso had openly rejected any monopoly play after been asked by members during asso. building opening cere last week.While sarawak asso also rejected the request of VET to install gps tracker in all farms there. all other associations are supporting the system i think.....

CK，need ur advise,thanks

自从假燕窝事件后，大家觉得这行业未来市场如何？？？
还值得投资？还是需要3年过渡期？还是前景一样看好？
希望你能给个意见，好让新手还没投资之前，慎重考虑清楚。

From the feedback and those who attended the meeting in Putrajaya, seems like it is more like a Q/A session for exporters of the industry. Since it is held at a Thursday where BH owners like me who still holds a regular job cannot attend, it is preposterous that they think they represent the whole industry.

The bottom line is there is NO PROBLEM at all with our RBN from BHs. The problem is the downstream processing industries trying to reap hefty profits by adding extra ingredients, and changing the appearance/color of their finished product to fetch a higher than normal price. So it is bullshit learning that our VET department is trying to implement procedures like tracking and registering in this industry.

1. What's the point of registering BHs if there are no problems with raw bird nest supplies? Do kampung folks breeding cattle/chickens need to register?
2. They say it is in case of a bird flu outbreak, these are free flying birds so even if there is an outbreak how does registering BHs help?
3. GPS tracking, what a joke, that's like saying you want to track bees, how do you track something small like a swiftlet?
4. And the RFID box tracking procedure with 5 steps, can someone explain to me how the fck someone came up with such an idea? There are so so so many loop holes with this system to begin with. Alas we must realize only brain dead moron government servants educated from our locally certified institutions can come up with such a system.


Since the problem is with the downstream processors, why don't we implement strict guidelines on processors? Every shipments has to be checked and random inspections conducted on the premises. And reward for employees that tip the authorities on processors adding chemicals into their nests.
Even then, how does this stop our china counterparts from adding other stuff into BN from Malaysia and then blame us when something wrong happens?

You can't, therefore you can be certain that all these procedures from our VET department is substance-less, they are just making a PR stunt showing how professional and dedicated they are. Until our DVS comes up with more practical approach to these issues, I'm just gonna be in the dark watching, because we really deserve better than these idiots.

This isn't what the accepted understanding and basis of MOH ongoing effort with their Chinese counterpart at the dialog.
The understanding is.. RAW EBN already contains the stuff ABOVE the Chinese requirement.
This something you guys need to verify for your own comfort.
I have personally spoken to a pioneer and he acknowledges that observation as factual.
MOH claimed to have advised their Chinese counterpart that it occurs naturally...The Chinese wanted evidence of that and MOH has undertaken the task to work with 'industry players' to provide evidence.

As for the tracking which MOH terms as 'traceability' there wasn't any major objection (except the 2 already mentioned) as MOH didn't emphasise this in their presentation.
As observed the attendees were more interested in overcoming their problems with exporting to China than the welfare of the industry as a whole.
This is something you guys have to mull over if the current assoc setup is sufficient to represent ALL interest or just the big players that spans the whole supply chain.

My reading of MOH's response on the question on traceability (I may be wrong) is....
The Chinese didn't specifically mentioned the requirement for traceability...but maybe.. implied it somehow...(there is room for MOH to have misinterpreted the Chinese requirement on this).
MOH has taken the opportunity to implement it as part of their assistance to the industry as after all it's already legislated in our current laws.

The attendee who questioned the robustness of the proposed traceability system/process/technology was cut short by the MCMC official in the audience (mind you he was seated amongst the industry attendees but came up to the mike to respond to the attendee's question).
I felt he was out of turn ...and if he were to carry on with his defence of the system...he would have riled me sufficiently to also jump to the mike.
The original questioning attendee was challenging the system from the industry perspective (I speculate..unnecessary process and cost) but the MCMC chap jumped up to defend the technical excellence and trust and recognition it will earn being a govt effort. He went on to remind MOH officers of involvement of both MCMC and PEMANDU in the system and how govt depts must work like comrades. So in essense, we must use the system cos' it's MCMC and PEMAMDU ...not cos' it's fit for the purpose??????? That what the MCMC chap implied...I suppose he didn't realise what he was letting us in on.
That's how I realise that the system and processes will be forced on us...
Those of you who can feel the pulse on the ground will realise what 'DRIVER' was originally meant to be and what is has morphed into..will also summise that the system will be forced down our throat.
The MCMC chap claim 'unprofessionalism' on our part for criticising the yet unseen system.
He doesn't realise that he was speaking to poor farmers and there exist farmers smarter than him

[quote=Cergau,Sep 29 2011, 06:06 PM]
Just back from PutraJaya..left early before the end to avoid the commuter rush hour.

1)My observation...MOH seem sincere in wanting to resolve the issue with China
2)They claim to be in touch with their Chinese counterparts...and are enforcing our existing food safety regulations to comply with the Chinese requirement of 0 PPM for the stuff. The Fed Assoc have reiterated that that stuff occur naturally in raw EBN (this require you guys to verify) and 0ppm is not achievable. MOH claim that they have indicative positive response with their Chinese counterpart for 1 ppm....yet to be confirmed.


MANY CLAIM HERE THEY KNOW THE RIGHT WAY TO PROCESS NEST N KNOW ALL BOUT IT
simple ,bring some of yr raw n cleaned n run a lab test that is cheap n they have branch every state

http://www.bphealthcare.com/BPLab/contactus.asp

to get the nitrite ppm/Kg then only talk weather yr nest is qualify fr export then only talk bout wat kind of box should use n wat kind of tracking they wanna post


= DROP AGAIN

This post has been edited by kohloh: Sep 30 2011, 12:55 PM

Picking it apart and resolving each bit linearly may be good if time wasn't a factor.
The exporters claim to be already out of time, they were almost pleading for help to export as they have both stocks and contracts to fullfill.
I get the sense that MOH may be preparing to or already presented our national plan of action to the Chinese which then commits the industry with or without consultation.
In the plan traceability will feature I am sure; so the Chinese authorities will expect the FULL delivery of the FULL plan.
Without proper advance consultation and education of the industry, I fear there may be resistance.

Not that I doubt MOH's good intention, implementing traceability is good for everyone in terms of food safety and disease outbreak.
It's also brings in national prestige and may ease trade with the EU and USA.
The recent case of the European E coli outbreak and deaths highlights the need for traceability.

My point being we need to tackle all that is on the plate cos' we do not have the luxury of time.

[quote=kohloh,Sep 30 2011, 12:54 PM]
[quote=Cergau,Sep 29 2011, 06:06 PM]
Just back from PutraJaya..left early before the end to avoid the commuter rush hour.

1)My observation...MOH seem sincere in wanting to resolve the issue with China
2)They claim to be in touch with their Chinese counterparts...and are enforcing our existing food safety regulations to comply with the Chinese requirement of 0 PPM for the stuff. The Fed Assoc have reiterated that that stuff occur naturally in raw EBN (this require you guys to verify) and 0ppm is not achievable. MOH claim that they have indicative positive response with their Chinese counterpart for 1 ppm....yet to be confirmed.
MANY CLAIM HERE THEY KNOW THE RIGHT WAY TO PROCESS NEST N KNOW ALL BOUT IT
simple ,bring some of yr raw n cleaned n run a lab test that is cheap n they have branch every state

http://www.bphealthcare.com/BPLab/contactus.asp

to get the nitrite ppm/Kg then only talk weather yr nest is qualify fr export then only talk bout wat kind of box should use n wat kind of tracking they wanna post
= DROP AGAIN

[/quote]


ask china to test their chinese medicine herbs, sea cucumber, white fungus, red dates, kei chi, and many many more china products nitrite ppm and see which of it contain 0ppm nitrite level...that will shut them up...even US standard is more than 100ppm...and this is not an issue...

actually this is just an excuse for a bigger monopoly plan played by all the taikohs both in malaysia and in china...i guess lah......rumours again lah...hopefully this is just a rumour......i don't think the present govt is so bad heart til they don't even gives the rakyat a chance to earn some money to feed the family as we are not able to involve in other more lucrative business liked open petrol station, getting free AP's, Subsidies n stuffs....at least the govt is good hearted enough to gives us a break as this industry is so risky that we invest 10, only one or two that are profitable and the rest are total lost n the income not even enough to pay the bank loan interest.......

Our beloved Prime Minister, we need your help ........if this drag on another few more months...the suicide rate will jump up in malaysia....

For the sake of delivering traceability solutions, just look back into history of bird nest, it's not
hard to find EBN has been around for hundreds of years starting from the cave bird nest and
their exceedingly high mineral contents and sodium nitrite did not bring harm to the people
who consume for hundreds of years, If there was no issue in the past, why now? Just focus
efforts on downstream activities to ensure accountability in them; ask Chinese counterparts to check on theirs and ask them to lower the requirement to a reasonable level. That's it all. No other "additives" should
be proposed to them because we have already got enough "additives" in our stomach...

Hai, all sifu ,Have some question regarding the swiflet song, hopefully someone can help me to clarify the situation.
1) If I have 3 song in pen drive, one hour each. The player will play by sequence or will repeat the first song only?
2) If the timer shut down at 1.5hour, next time when the player start again, it will start with 2nd song or 1st song? Thanks for advice..

Most players will automatically play files by sequence normally sorted alphabetically.

If power is interrupted it will start the loop all over again when power resumes.

If u need to prove it yourself u just copy 3-4 files that are 1mins long into pen driver and try it out.