The Bill in question applies to Pen M'sia and Labuan only.
Cave swiftlets are more a feature in East Malaysia as such it's irrelevant thus appropriate the licensing clause be made specific to protected and totally protected birds nests.
Swiftlets in Pen M'sia is quoted as non limestone cave dwelling except in sea caves.
I quote "However in Peninsula Malaysia, edible nest swiftlets don't seem to roost in limestone caves, though they do use sea caves."
I have yet to sight any writeups (except the brief mention above) on the subject of Pen M'sia sea cave swiftlets.
I would hesitate to advocate protection of sea cave swiftlets on such a basis.

There's a hyperlink on my quotation above.
Just learnt to use it watching aeiou228 use the (http://) Code button

This post has been edited by Cergau: May 9 2010, 03:11 PM

I doubt PBTs have sufficient authority to deal with electricity supply, s/b under TNB (I may be wrong).
However if they invoke their usual protection given them where they can do no wrong.
They can drop a heavy ladder over yr electricity supply cable to snap it and say Ooops Sorry.
There's nothing you can do abt it unless you can 'read minds' and prove in court that the action was with ill intent and insufficient care has been taken.
Sure you can sue them but you will lose.
(They are above royalty in this sense.)

Delinquent operators....
Will folks who do not care abt their human neighbors give two hoots to dead birds?

a ladder can do quite a bit of damage to yr solar panels or yr wind turbine blades to put them out of action?
a can of spilled paint will also take care of solar film-type if you happen to use them?
"Sandar tangga sini sekejap, mahu cat-lah, ada karat" Ooops Sorry!

All,
Got good news and bad news from a forwarded email (below).
My interpretations are
Good News
AF is not protected (thru Clarification of "spp." in First Schedule)
Bad News
Birds' nest collection is under Perhilitan, so 'kena lesen' as stipulated in the Bill (or Act once passed by Parliament)
(thru clarification of definition of wildlife)
Not sure but likely good news
Other licenses for buying, export, re-export, my reading? only for protected species

Confirmation from Perhilitan with further clarification
Thanks for your keen interest on the proposed new Wildlife Conservation Bill 2010.
· To the first isu..
o The definition of ‘wildlife’ is refer to all wild animals and wild birds which is also include ‘totally protected’, ‘protected’ and the ‘un-protected’.... This mean, the meaning of wildlife in this Bill does not confine to only totally protected and protected wildlife.
o My earlier explanation was on the context of what listed as ‘totally protected wildlife’ and ‘protected wildlife’ in the Act itself. I’m sorry if my explanation was not clear.

· And for the second isu..
o Yes, the statement as your understanding is as what I have explain.

Initial understanding after discussion with Perhilitan as sent for confirmation
Clause 3
“wildlife” means any species of wild animal or wild bird,
whether totally protected or protected, vertebrate or invertebrate,
live or dead, mature or immature and whether or not may be
tamed or bred in captivity;
Clarification
The definition of 'wildlife' applies and confined to only 'totally protected' and 'protected' as defined in the Bill and no other.
ie it does not apply to the hypothetical category (excluding totally protected and protected as defined in the Bill) of 'UN-protected'.

FIRST SCHEDULE
[section 3]
PROTECTED WILDLIFE
Interpretation of the First Schedule
1. Species included in this Schedule are referred to—
(a) by the name of the species; or
(b) as being all of the species included in a higher taxon or designated
part thereof.
2. The abbreviation “spp.” is used to denote all species of a higher taxon.
Clarification
Statement 2 is an emphasis of statement 1(b) and are both to be read together to mean
as being all of the species included in a higher taxon or designated
part thereof when so denoted by the abbreviation "spp."
ie when a unique specie is denoted it is then limited to specie as denoted whilst
when a higher taxon is denoted with "spp," it is limited to all specie below such taxon as denoted as the case may be.

if the Wildlife Bill is a guide for things to come...
they have legal access to anywhere! with or w/o warrant.
I doubt the dark forces will go to such lengths for want of a submarine commission?
They too wouldnt want to kill the golden goose/swift.

Unc WW,
Appreciate your assistance to escalate these points to the Fed Assoc for their consideration in their Exco meeting as they see fit.
Certainly there are more points than these that they may be able to highlight with their resources available.

To all sifus and readers, appreciate your comments and feedback
I suggest
Write to your MP with my suggested writeup below or write your own as you wish.
Amed/Add/Delete as you see fit if you do use this.



Dear YB ......

I write with great concern with the passage of the Wild Life Conservation Bill 2010 in Parliament through the 1st reading.
While I applaud the general increase in penalties for offences under the Bill for activities negatively affecting the threatened species, there is no distinction for specie that are not threatened. With the all encompassing intent (clarified with Perhilitan) of the definition of wildlife in the Bill , all wildlife short of domesticated animals (as governed under the Animals Act); the same severe penalties are applicable.
No appreciable attempt at distinction is apparent in the Bill.
The over zealousness is compounded by the following (though not exhaustive) examples
(1)opaque licensing criteria,
(2)unreasonable conditions that impinge on trade practices,
(3)carrying of arms during enforcement activities
(4)non distinction of severity of offence (eg an expired license is treated same as a suspected poacher and criminal procedures under police custody are applicable).

(1)Licensing
Criteria for approval are variable and without prior knowlege.
There is no specific requirements for approver to provide reasons for rejections.
Additional conditions may be attached at any time at the discretion of approver.
ref (Part 3, Chapter 2, clauses 12-25)
Recommendation -
Specific provision in the Bill for approval criteria to be priorly published
Rejection reasons to be specifically provided for in the Bill for timely and appropriate appeal.

(2)Selling only to licensed purchasers.
Undesirable as it distorts the market and encourages a monopoly.
Adds to the bureaucracy and cost of production of the EBN trade (1 of 6 identified for growth) with high econmic impact as outlined in the 2010 M'sia budget.
There's sufficient authority within the Bill for enforcement without the need for additional for bureaucratic licensing especially in light of the opaque criteria as pointed out earlier.
ref (Part 4, clause 41)
Recommendation -
Clause to be removed

(3)Armed enforcement officers
Apart from actions against poachers in wildlife habitat who are more often than are armed and mobile there is little justification for arming the officers in general.
Arming officers is disproportionate to threat faced by the officers in the course of their duties.
As recent events has shown, omissions and neglect may have fatal consequences to human life.
ref (Part 2, clause 8)
Recommendation -
Specific limitation to anti poaching activities in the wild.

(4)Power of arrest to the nearest police station
Disproportionate to the offence as even failure to renew ones license will be an offence under the Act and liable to arrest and criminal procedure applicable.
ref (Part 8, clause 93)
Recommendation -
Lawyer's counsel required as to the appropriate rephrasing reflective of offence.
(Suggest Feds assoc engaged lawyer for the purpose)

Some more forwarded correspondence with Perhilitan
What it really mean is to include any species that are known to be wild, as for domesticated species are not included. Domesticated animals such as dogs, cats, chickens, ducks or cows are than regulated under the Animals Act. Wildlife in many ways are tame but not domesticated.
Hope this explain the two between wild and domesticated animals/birds.

For those of you curious about the Animal Act....
No,No, ..this doesn't govern the behaviour in Parliament...just that this too was passed by parliament at some point in time.
Animals Act 1953

This post has been edited by Cergau: May 10 2010, 04:50 PM

Unc WW,
Check email, urgent & important msg.

CRAP, CRAP, CRAP (must be said in 3s for emphasis)
So,.. we have here, fancy technology for it's own sake and lofty useless ideas for resolving non existing problems.
I must be out of circulation for a very long time. In that time DVS has become a successful business concern and..
is now consulting for the EBN industry. hmmm

NOTHING EVEN REMOTELY INITIATED BY THE GOVT HAS EVER SUCCEEDED OVER TIME.
STOP ALL THESE NONSENSICAL IDEAS, YOU ARE HELPING US TO AN EARLY DEATH.

This post has been edited by Cergau: May 11 2010, 11:42 PM

Lucas 1,
If there were sufficient emoticons to express my feelings then, you would have seen your screen burning and curling and smoking on the edges.
I was in a unique Malaysian emotional state that we have proudly contributed to the enrichment of the English language - AMOK.

This article about captures hackwire's ranting on this matter.
A nation on the brink of failure

Discovered another gem of an expression....
"They are like a baby: An alimentary canal with a big appetite at one end and no sense of responsibility at the other"!
Enough to make my morning

Ivan Ho,
Not really...this is 'Scenario Setting'
Some stuff can't be dealt with in isolation, the overall scheme of things need to be accounted for an accurate reflection of the reality.
If you want to crawl out of a shit hole, one has to look around if there are any more such holes, or everyone in the country has one marked with their name on it. How deep each is so we know how much it can contain...get my drift? and lots more consideration before you start to analyse the shit.
My natural reaction is 'TAK NAK'...why would a sane person even want to consider how to get out of the shit in the eventuality that we do get into the shit. When the sane response should be 'GO AWAY WITH YOUR SHIT AND DONT COME NEAR'

It really goes against my grain to give credence to such utter mindless drivel by discussing them like there were GOD's own commandments.
I however will make exceptions since everyone is speechless from awe of such 'brilliance' propounded by the very dept that the Cabinet picked to lead this whole process...and rumoured to be sympathetic to our plight.

1 All premises will strictly adhere to GAHP recommendations
Here's a copy if you (as I) have not read this in detail.
http://www.jphpk.gov.my/swiftlets%20GAHP.pdf
I cant find it in the HQ site, this is from the Perak branch of DVS.
I can't find any form of versioning , so if you hv a copy in hand, you will need to compare to guess which is more current.
More laughable detailed guidelines are in here.
Enjoy.!!!
Please share the jokes from the doc on the forum for everyone's enjoyment after you hv read thru.

While I work on the more serious shit. [Watch for more Updates]
Still on the serious matter of serious shit.
http://zorro-zorro-unmasked.blogspot.com/2...rganic-pkr.html

Regulatory Status of Codes of Practice
While the codes certainly serve an important adjunct to expert/testimony in the revice Animal Ordinance 1953, they should not and of themselves be used to determine compliance or the legality of a particular operation. Codes are recommended guidelines not required standards.

While I do not fully understand what the above paragraph (lifted frm the GAHP) means
I do have a few points I would like to share below

2.5 Identification and records
2.5.2 Useful records include: species, acquisition/disposition, incubation period, hatched date, flock/batch number, fertilized eggs acquired from, and owernership. The date and mode of any treatment or medication, breeding history, and bloodline records can be added on.
Essentially a log of all activities of each individual bird from the egg stage...Banyak bagus!

2.5.3 Permanent identification (microchip ring tag) of some of the pioneer breeders is needed for legal proof of ownership. These shall in the future be, at the National Animal Registrar Office, stationed at the Department of Veterinary Services Headquarters. Annual renewal of the licenses shall be deemed a must, which goes concurrently with the compulsory random health checks of the birds and premise by registered Veterinary authority, the Local Government and Health Ministry.
Wah!!! A unique ID for each bird. Getting better!!!
I am wondering if DVS Walet site is for registering each individual bird or BH??

3.1 Water and feed
3.1.3 Where environmental, seasonal, or stocking density effects do not allow daily insect feed requirements to be met, supplemented insects bolus feed can be offered.
3.1.4 Specific trace mineral requirements can be met with supplements. Exotic birds may have different requirements for minerals such as cooper, selenium or cobalt than those of conventional animals.
Do we weigh all the hatchlings each day like babies to chart proper growth?

3.3 Restrain
3.3.1 Restrain is required for procedures such as tagging and medication.
3.3.2 Use of currently available chemical immobilizing agents is legally restricted to licensed registered veterinarians an other authorized personnel.
3.3.3 Chemical immobilization should not be used where birds might injure or disorient themselves or become separated from human care, for example near open water, extensive woodland or steep slopes.
3.3.4 Following chemical immobilization, birds should be kept upright in a dark, confine, dry flat area and kept under observation until sufficient recovery has occurred to avoid risks of trauma, regurgitation or accidental injury. It is best to wrap anaesthetized birds with towels to prevent hypothermia.
3.3.5 Birds recovering from chemical immobilization behave strangely and may traumatised itself or be attacked by other objects.
So to attach the chip ring tag, you may need to hire specialist to immobilise the birds!!
I refuse to read on.

GAHP has been mentioned for at least a year when I first stumbled on this forum.
How did all these alien breeding recommendations have stayed on for so long in the GAHP?
Didnt all the sifus here have the presence of mind to challenge DVS then?
All your local assoc and the Feds have just been shown to be just as clueless with recent events.

My purpose of providing the zorro hyperlink was there is a moral to the article.
When you see shit you dun go probing, checking, smelling and tasting it and then eventually step OVER it, BUT still leaving it in place.
Shovel it away.
That was the thrust of my long rant......

To yr comment...
If BIG SHIT, you have to adhere to DOE guideline to dispose.
Small shit, shovel and flush away.
No shit, no smell

Have you watched this old movie 'The Gods Must be Crazy' and the Coke bottle?
They have never seen a Coke bottle.
But you have seen and smelt shit. So you recognise shit.
As such you need not act like those tribal folks and carry the shit around wondering what to do with it.
The Coke bottle was meant to be discarded. (Garbage disposal)
Shit is meant to be flushed away. (Sewage disposal)

Or if you are so inclined to deal with babies you can choose to toilet train them!

This post has been edited by Cergau: May 13 2010, 01:23 PM

I didnt,...... I read about it.

Depends on one's values
1)Financial - You lost money which is replaceable
2)Justice - You gained in integrity which in some circumstances no amt of money can purchase the opportunity to regain
You walked out of the court poorer but your head held high, a longer lasting sense of achievement that stayed with you that enable you today to recount the story for our benefit. Plus you know in your heart of heart you were right to pursue to it's just end finances permitting.
Do you not think that it's this very mass compromises of ones values that has taken our country to such a shameful state?
I am of course assuming everyone has been brought up the right way to carry such values throughout their life.


This post has been edited by Cergau: May 13 2010, 10:15 PM

[.......continuation]

2 All exports to go through a governing body, to ensure quality and health standards. Presumably incl. price and to carry the "Product of Malaysia"
3 All processing to be done by approved factories to be able to enforce (2)
4 All Swiftlet Ranches will be registered and all produce will be recorded and traceable via RFID.
5 No unprocessed nests allowed to be exported

Interpreted as.....
Only processed EBN shall be exported. Raw EBN shall undergo processing in approved plants.
A governance body shall be setup to ensure quality and health standards in such plants and the EBN it processes.
Processed EBN from such plants are eligible for "Product of Malaysia" labelling and shall be tagged with RFID chips for traceability.
The body shall set pricing of the processed EBN.

Since these are based on assumtion/speculation I can only come out with points in question form......
pls add on or comment

1)Quality and Health Standards
Whose standards. Presumably importing country?
Variable stds for each intended target country?
Require certification from target countries.?
At what cost vs the potential market value?

2)Proposed target market
Any market survey that indicate an unfulfilled demand for such premium processed EBN?
Customers are willing to pay a premium over the ordinarily processed EBN?
What value of potential market?

3)RFID tagging
(Packaging and/or in/on EBN)
Avoid illegal trades in controlled specie? AF is no longer under CITES thus unnecessary.
Establish origin in case of complaints?
Is it established that a after sale servicing is required from the country of origin?
Isn't this a duplicated function of local consumer rights agencies?
Piracy of 'Product of Malaysia' labeling? Brand value is not established.
(the technical questions on RFID on either packaging or on/in EBN is left out and be treated separately if required)
(BHs)
Comment reserved until process and objectives are known.

4)Cost
Application of new lower cost cleaning method?
Scientifically established that new cleaning method does not produces an inferior product?
Costing has established lower than the current labour intensive method?
Cost reduction is not a stated objective.

5)Controlled pricing
Any study on the eventual end product costing that are comparable and favorable to current pricing.
What are the proposed pricing mechanism for the purchase of the raw EBN?
How will the enforcement of pricing be carried out?
New set of laws to forbid non sanctioned buying and selling of either raw or processed EBN?

6)Benefits
How does it benefit the raw EBN sellers.
What other quantifiable benefits?

7)Processing plants
Where are the proposed geographic locations?
Logistics? Distributed selling centres?


8)Exports through governing body
Monopoly of any trade distorts the market and introduces inefficiencies.
Compounded by previous points above will introduce additional cost without any apparent benefits.
Will more likely than not render Malaysian produced EBN be less competitive in the world market.

I disagree...
WW shd be encouraged to take on ALL injustices so that
Perhilitan and our Court systems reverts to it's right course
Perhilitan and our Court systems will need protection from WW...but I hope the protection fails
why does it take so long, and thus increases the cost of seeking justices
and that shd start with some of the injustices that affect the EBN industry

This post has been edited by Cergau: May 13 2010, 10:43 PM

Well said.
Allow me to put it in a different way to all you folks who come here seeking assistance.
It's the only decent thing to do in return to the kindness of folks helping take your 1st steps .........
IF YOU ARE NOT PART OF THE SOLUTION....YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM.

(1)3 months leaves ....?
It's unhealthy to stay away from routine for this long. Too disruptive. This routine kept you alive for so long, breaking it means staying away from things keeping you alive. Logical ?
(2)"swiftlet Mania" ?
It' called LOVE....looks, sounds, encourages craziness. And we all crave for it. Why cure it?
(3)Sleepless nights.....?
Solution- Sleep in the day...in short naps (siesta)...research shows less stress for heart, instead of fighting it and try staying awake
(4)I am getting old..........
Aren't we all. You are not the only one inflicted with this disease. Contradictory. People in love feels young.
(5)young men like Cegau
If I had the pleasure of meeting you, you will probably address me as 'uncle' in return. So you are mistaken.
Reality is, I may not have the continuing pleasure and honour of fighting alongside all the old soldiers here for as long as you had initially thought.

BTW, I was pulling you leg ......I did watch 'THE GODS MUST BE CRAZY' 3 times over 10 years.

Take a deep breath brother!
So, you too need to sleep in the day..posting at 03.26AM???
Are you writing this while on the roof top or
while taking off you mask, cape and costume?
The LOUD way you respond to even a mention of INJUSTICE and CORRUPTION shows.....
What a guy...you fight for the downtrodden awake, asleep, day and night.
Wah, you take EBN every meal AHhh?

On a more serious note......
Take a step back and reflect
WHY do we have to attend to such endless onslaught of repressive regulations?
HOW did these regulations even get to see the light of day?
It is beyond me.

Is it so difficult for the civil servants to think of us as being in the same company MALAYSIA INCORPORATED (MI).
[to be continued......]