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 CALLING ALL MEDICAL STUDENTS! V2, medical student chat+info center

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CyberSetan
post Mar 29 2012, 12:21 AM

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QUOTE(hypermax @ Mar 28 2012, 11:19 PM)
With the amount of med schools in Malaysia, quality of medical education is deteriorating fast due to lack of quality lecturers as well as quality students. I was shocked to hear a HO informing me that a patient's GCS was zero (and this HO is from a local gov med school).

Thus, i strongly suggest a common licencing exam to weed out all the incompetent medical graduates, in order to maintain the quality of our healthcare. In addition, it will also eliminate biases towards medical graduates from certain schools / countries.
*
GCS zero~ yeay~ laugh.gif
Gone are the EVM - 456~

Go try test them on CNS examination and be amused... laugh.gif


hypermax
post Mar 29 2012, 01:40 PM

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QUOTE(limeuu @ Mar 28 2012, 11:43 PM)
a common qualifying exam would be politically unacceptable, and indeed, the proposal by mmc (which excludes local graduates from the exam, both ipta and ipts) was turned down by the cabinet..........

objections will arise from both sides....those from good unis do not want an additional barrier and do not see why they need to be tested.....those from bad unis also do not want, as maybe many will fail the exam....

and it will NOT address the problem of bad students locally, both public and private....
*
When i said common licensing exam, i meant COMMON for all, both local and foreign graduates. Thus, it will address the problem of bad students locally.

And i dun see why anyone should object this (besides those with political agenda). After all, many developed countries (US, Canada, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Japan) have a common medical board exam, which all medical graduates are required to pass in order to practice in the respective countries, regardless of where they graduated from.

QUOTE(limeuu @ Mar 28 2012, 11:43 PM)
there are many other issues.....who will conduct the exam?.....are there enough resources?.....will it include clinicals? (no way moh will cope with clinicals for 3-4K a year)....how objective is the exam?......will it be abused like the clp exams?.....

not going to happen.....
*
I suggest MMC to form a medical exam board, consisting of senior professors from all local universities or abroad (guest examiners) and senior clinicians from both gov and private hospital. Also, we can divide the exam into few parts, like USMLE, thus limiting the number of applicants for the clinical exam (since some of them will fail in the theory part).

QUOTE(limeuu @ Mar 28 2012, 11:43 PM)
there is an old saying.....prevention is better than cure.....

that is very much the case for this issue....unfortunately, we are not even at cure.....it's palliation at the moment...
*
I guess we have no other viable choices besides a common licensing exam, since it is very difficult to de-recognize a degree, and also equally difficult to maintain strict intake requirement among local medical schools (as both will require even greater political effort and will).

Of course, what i am saying here might sound like fairy tale, given the political situation in Msia. However, as long as we medical professionals have a common understanding, i am sure we can do something about it, hopefully.


QUOTE(Huskies @ Mar 28 2012, 11:57 PM)
A common licensing exam is great and all, but how transparent/efficient do you think MOH/MMC can carry this out?

And then of course there is the issue of government scholarship/PTPTN recipients (public medical school graduates for that matter too) failing the licensing exam. How do you plan to recoup the public funds splashed on them - arbitrarily if a medical student costs society 200K to educate and the licensing exam has a pass rate of 90% (the USMLE has roughly that amount of passes for US medical graduates) and assuming there are 4000 publicly funded medical students each year - that's 400 x 200K= 80 million ringgit each year down the drain
*
In other countries, scholarship recipients are almost always the creme de la creme. However, the same can't be applied in Msian context. I am sure you know whom should we blame, and what should we do in the next GE. rolleyes.gif

P.S I am just sharing my humble dua cents here. You are free to disagree with me but pls avoid inflammatory remarks. Thx thumbup.gif

This post has been edited by hypermax: Mar 29 2012, 03:57 PM
podrunner
post Mar 29 2012, 02:39 PM

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If you can choose between doing a 5 yr undergrad medical course in either Australia (one of the Go8) or UK, (one of the russell group), which will you choose, under present known circumstances? What are the pertinent pros and cons?
cckkpr
post Mar 29 2012, 02:46 PM

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QUOTE(podrunner @ Mar 29 2012, 02:39 PM)
If you can choose between doing a 5 yr undergrad medical course in either Australia (one of the Go8) or UK, (one of the russell group), which will you choose, under present known circumstances? What are the pertinent pros and cons?
*
Uk, if get Edinburgh, UCL or Kings College other than Oxbridge. Top tier in UK.
podrunner
post Mar 29 2012, 03:04 PM

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QUOTE(cckkpr @ Mar 29 2012, 02:46 PM)
Uk, if get Edinburgh, UCL or Kings College other than Oxbridge. Top tier in UK.
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Prestige of unis aside?
limeuu
post Mar 29 2012, 05:38 PM

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QUOTE(podrunner @ Mar 29 2012, 02:39 PM)
If you can choose between doing a 5 yr undergrad medical course in either Australia (one of the Go8) or UK, (one of the russell group), which will you choose, under present known circumstances? What are the pertinent pros and cons?
*
there is only one go8 5 year undergraduate medicine.... smile.gif

knowing the cost of that one, a russell group would be preferred..... biggrin.gif

however, if settling in oz is a BIG target, then take the chances and the cost with oz....

This post has been edited by limeuu: Mar 29 2012, 06:31 PM
podrunner
post Mar 29 2012, 06:06 PM

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QUOTE(limeuu @ Mar 29 2012, 05:38 PM)
there is only one go8 5 year undergraduate medicine.... smile.gif

know the cost of that one, a russell group would be preferred..... biggrin.gif

however, if settling in oz is a BIG target, then take the chances and the cost with oz....
*
At the moment, even targets need to be prioritized.
Huskies
post Mar 29 2012, 07:31 PM

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QUOTE(hypermax @ Mar 29 2012, 01:40 PM)
When i said common licensing exam, i meant COMMON for all, both local and foreign graduates. Thus, it will address the problem of bad students locally.

And i dun see why anyone should object this (besides those with political agenda). After all, many developed countries (US, Canada, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Japan) have a common medical board exam, which all medical graduates are required to pass in order to practice in the respective countries, regardless of where they graduated from.
I suggest MMC to form a medical exam board, consisting of senior professors from all local universities or abroad (guest examiners) and senior clinicians from both gov and private hospital. Also, we can divide the exam into few parts, like USMLE, thus limiting the number of applicants for the clinical exam (since some of them will fail in the theory part).
I guess we have no other viable choices besides a common licensing exam, since it is very difficult to de-recognize a degree, and also equally difficult to maintain strict intake requirement among local medical schools (as both will require even greater political effort and will).

Of course, what i am saying here might sound like fairy tale, given the political situation in Msia. However, as long as we medical professionals have a common understanding, i am sure we can do something about it, hopefully.
In other countries, scholarship recipients are almost always the creme de la creme. However, the same can't be applied in Msian context. I am sure you know whom should we blame, and what should we do in the next GE.  rolleyes.gif

P.S I am just sharing my humble dua cents here. You are free to disagree with me but pls avoid inflammatory remarks. Thx  thumbup.gif
*
I hate to be cynical, but I'm inclined to agree with limeuu here, a common licensing exam is economically/politically unfeasible. My point is, why bother training unemployable medical graduates to begin with? Introducing a licensing exam whilst still allowing medical schools to churn out dodgy medical graduates at the expense of taxpayers is utterly irresponsible...
eliselam
post Mar 29 2012, 07:52 PM

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QUOTE(podrunner @ Mar 29 2012, 02:39 PM)
If you can choose between doing a 5 yr undergrad medical course in either Australia (one of the Go8) or UK, (one of the russell group), which will you choose, under present known circumstances? What are the pertinent pros and cons?
*
Congrats to u and son. Which uni?


hypermax
post Mar 29 2012, 08:41 PM

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QUOTE(Huskies @ Mar 29 2012, 07:31 PM)
I hate to be cynical, but I'm inclined to agree with limeuu here, a common licensing exam is economically/politically unfeasible. My point is, why bother training unemployable medical graduates to begin with? Introducing a licensing exam whilst still allowing medical schools to churn out dodgy medical graduates at the expense of taxpayers is utterly irresponsible...
*
Hi, thank you for your reply. I guess you are not fully aware of the situation in Msia. Thus allow me to explain further:

1. It is a well established fact that majority of the medical graduates from a certain Eastern European country are incompetent. Yet MMC has done absolutely nothing about it, as it is politically incorrect to de-recognize a medical degree. Just look at what happened when Ukraine was de-recognized.

2. There are already 30+ medical schools in Msia, and more are still popping up despite the moratorium. Thus, it is safe to assume that no one is Msia has the political will or might to put a halt to this.

3. Even in local gov med schools, intake requirement can be lax due to racial / political factor. There's even a uni which admits student based purely on ethnicity instead of meritocracy.

4. Scholarship is given out, again, based largely on ethnicity instead of meritocracy.

Thus based on the points mentioned above, it is safe to assume that we are already "churning out dodgy medical graduates at the expense of taxpayers". Hence the question, do you want these "dodgy medical graduates" to be employed in our medical system? What if one day one of them were to attend to you or your love ones?

This post has been edited by hypermax: Mar 29 2012, 08:51 PM
Huskies
post Mar 29 2012, 09:22 PM

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QUOTE(hypermax @ Mar 29 2012, 08:41 PM)
Hi, thank you for your reply. I guess you are not fully aware of the situation in Msia. Thus allow me to explain further:

1. It is a well established fact that majority of the medical graduates from a certain Eastern European country are incompetent. Yet MMC has done absolutely nothing about it, as it is politically incorrect to de-recognize a medical degree. Just look at what happened when Ukraine was de-recognized.

2. There are already 30+ medical schools in Msia, and more are still popping up despite the moratorium. Thus, it is safe to assume that no one is Msia has the political will or might to put a halt to this.

3. Even in local gov med schools, intake requirement can be lax due to racial / political factor. There's even a uni which admits student based purely on ethnicity instead of meritocracy.

4. Scholarship is given out, again, based largely on ethnicity instead of meritocracy.

Thus based on the points mentioned above, it is safe to assume that we are already "churning out dodgy medical graduates at the expense of taxpayers". Hence the question, do you want these "dodgy medical graduates" to be employed in our medical system? What if one day one of them were to attend to you or your love ones?
*
While I concur that an assessment/exam of sorts (commissioning a foreign body such as the ACGME would be a more viable option than starting from scratch, logistically speaking) should be in place for individuals already in the system, it is not in fact addressing the problem at its root - I'm still convinced that killing off these colleges (or at the very least amalgamation) is the only solution in the long run.



Ah...who am I kidding anyway? This is Malaysia after all, I just have to remind myself about that... biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by Huskies: Mar 29 2012, 09:27 PM
hypermax
post Mar 29 2012, 09:48 PM

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QUOTE(Huskies @ Mar 29 2012, 09:22 PM)
While I concur that an assessment/exam of sorts (commissioning a foreign body such as the ACGME would be a more viable option than starting from scratch, logistically speaking) should be in place for individuals already in the system, it is not in fact addressing the problem at its root - I'm still convinced that killing off these colleges (or at the very least amalgamation) is the only solution in the long run.
Ah...who am I kidding anyway? This is Malaysia after all, I just have to remind myself about that... biggrin.gif
*
Are you aware of the fact that almost all private medical schools have the backing of political parties? Do you know how many Tan Sri and Datuk Seri would come after you if you were to shut off their goldmines?

How about those foreign universities? We can't kill them off and definitely we can't de-recognize them for reasons stated in my previous post.

Let's be more realistic. A common licensing exam is indeed a more practical way to address the problem we are facing right now.

Btw, licensing exam for those already in the system will be next to impossible as it requires even greater political might than to kill off those colleges (you dun expect our DG, consultants, profs to take the licensing exam as well, do you?). However, i do support this idea (for HOs or junior MOs), as many of them are not that competent anyway. smile.gif

This post has been edited by hypermax: Mar 29 2012, 09:54 PM
Huskies
post Mar 29 2012, 10:06 PM

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QUOTE(hypermax @ Mar 29 2012, 09:48 PM)
Are you aware of the fact that almost all private medical schools have the backing of political parties? Do you know how many Tan Sri and Datuk Seri would come after you if you were to shut off their goldmines?

How about those foreign universities? We can't kill them off and definitely we can't de-recognize them for reasons stated in my previous post.

Let's be more realistic. A common licensing exam is indeed a more practical way to address the problem we are facing right now.

Btw, licensing exam for those already in the system will be next to impossible as it requires even greater political might than to kill off those colleges (you dun expect our DG, consultants, profs to take the licensing exam as well, do you?). However, i do support this idea (for HOs or junior MOs), as many of them are not that competent anyway.  smile.gif
*
I meant to say medical students and maybe HOs, but now that you've mentioned it, I think it's probably a good idea to put senior doctors up for re-certification, say every 10 years, just so they don't get rusty with their knowledge......but that's just wishful thinking on my part smile.gif
hypermax
post Mar 29 2012, 10:15 PM

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QUOTE(Huskies @ Mar 29 2012, 10:06 PM)
I meant to say medical students and maybe HOs, but now that you've mentioned it, I think it's probably a good idea to put senior doctors up for re-certification, say every 10 years, just so they don't get rusty with their knowledge......but that's just wishful thinking on my part  smile.gif
*
When you mentioned those "already" in the system, i thought you meant MOs, specialists and consultants as well. smile.gif

Anyway, the healthcare of this country is really screwed up, and the future is not bright for us medical professionals. Perhaps time to change profession brows.gif
limeuu
post Mar 29 2012, 10:18 PM

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QUOTE(hypermax @ Mar 29 2012, 10:15 PM)
When you mentioned those "already" in the system, i thought you meant MOs, specialists and consultants as well.  smile.gif

Anyway, the healthcare of this country is really screwed up, and the future is not bright for us medical professionals. Perhaps time to change profession  brows.gif
*
i can suggest driving a taxi... tongue.gif

so how is doctoring measuring out?..... smile.gif tried the mrcp part 1 yet? thumbup.gif
onelove89
post Mar 30 2012, 03:49 AM

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QUOTE(hypermax @ Mar 28 2012, 11:19 PM)
With the amount of med schools in Malaysia, quality of medical education is deteriorating fast due to lack of quality lecturers as well as quality students. I was shocked to hear a HO informing me that a patient's GCS was zero (and this HO is from a local gov med school).

Thus, i strongly suggest a common licencing exam to weed out all the incompetent medical graduates, in order to maintain the quality of our healthcare. In addition, it will also eliminate biases towards medical graduates from certain schools / countries.
*
must be a new category they invented for the GCS. =P
podrunner
post Mar 30 2012, 01:47 PM

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Talent Corp wine-ing and dining the malaysian medical professionals in London....hmmmm


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[Ancient]-XinG-
post Mar 30 2012, 05:10 PM

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Is UTAR a good place to study Medical course ? ( Sg Long campus )
godofwar13
post Mar 31 2012, 02:51 AM

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As one of those rich-kid, new gen medical students who plays like crazy and goes out every other night I must say that a common licensing board is the only way to guarantee competent medical students, though extremely difficult to implement. The passing grade for many private medical colleges exams are laughably easy. That..or dispel the notion that good grades=be a doctor.
podrunner
post Mar 31 2012, 08:16 AM

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QUOTE(godofwar13 @ Mar 31 2012, 02:51 AM)
As one of those rich-kid, new gen medical students who plays like crazy and goes out every other night I must say that a common licensing board is the only way to guarantee competent medical students, though extremely difficult to implement. The passing grade for many private medical colleges exams are laughably easy. That..or dispel the notion that good grades=be a doctor.
*
Can you elaborate a little on "laughably easy"? Exactly what kind of future doctors are being churned out by the private medical colleges in the country?

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