BH @ town with over 8K nests for sales for only 6M.
Interested, contact yours truly............West Wing, the Broker

All,

Fyi, I have created a FORUM in my Swiftlet Products and Reviews web below for people to share their view on swiftlet related topics. You need to register as member first. Everybody can be a member.

Btw, you need to use Google Chrome or Firefox to log in. Cannot use IE.

http://cw_gee.webs.comhttp://cw_gee.webs.com

As Unc WW commented it may not necessary be so.
The objective is to vote in an alternative to check each other.
I trust neither. If we can outlive some of the parliament samsengs we can start to hear some intelligent debates.
They have to... (I sincerely hope) now that they know we are more discerning.

...that's what they would love you to think
...being stupid/incompetent is not a crime in MY, see how they always plead ignorance when cornered!
they soon get promoted in MY. CEO doesn't know cash flow
...no one will admit willful omission. ie they know what to do but don't for whatever reasons.

Most of the gomen servants (lords, emperors) may have gone to yr uni & sat thru only that part of the lecture.

Agreed.

WW if they are reading yr comments, you will be conferred a datukship soon
BTW BN/Alliance had 50 years to make it right but didn't.
Their ground rules amongst themselves are all based on race, so we rakyat never get to heal.
Cos...if we heal on our own...race based politics become irrelevant.
Guess which side plays the race card most often & keep fanning it!
They have learnt from the British well.

The fighting within the alternative...that's good in my books...at least we know what each is thinking.
That's what I like to see our parliament be like.
Not everything behind closed door, we rakyat will never know what transpired.
What will you expect in a new marriage! A shotgun one at that.
BN has been screwing us for 50 years.
Alternative has just started to look like they know how. (if it's not propaganda by the BN controlled press)
I will like to see a threesome, BN screw alternative, alternative screw BN, both screw all of us.
Every few years we get to screw 1 of them.

Apologies again if I get carried away.
Politics was thrust into our faces ... I was not looking for it.

Back to swiftlet.
I was reading Pak HM's book & he mentioned bird flight in clockwise & anti clockwise directions as a consideration for the inlet design.
(I dont recall this being discussed in V1).
And Dr Chris's book mentioned that a particular direction is adopted by the whole colony.
What are your observations?
All same direction or mixed or same bird can do both at diff times?
I am still far away from owning a BH to be able to observe as I am still site hunting.
Anyone here runs a standalone BH in Raub or Tg Malim?
I would like to fren fren you to know more of these 2 towns.
I have narrowed it down to these 2 towns for cost & commute considerations only.
I did a bird call test in the middle of Raub town (at an open car park opposite KWSP) this late afternoon, the results wow!

Just to share;

Garis Panduan PERHILITAN (Cetakan Ke 3)
http://www.mediafire.com/?n2tk4zlzigu

Garis Panduan Veterinar (GAHP 2003)
http://www.mediafire.com/?y1dm4m3gwdg

I noticed in item 5.1 (GP PERHILITAN), one must have 4 Licenses;

1. Lesen Premis from PBT (if applicable i guess)
2. Lesen Mengambil Sarang from PERHILITAN
3. Lesen Perniagaan Sarang from PERHILITAN
4. Lesen Import/Eksport from PERHILITAN


Some Acts relevant and giving PERHILITAN jurisdiction on AF;
Akta Perlindungan Hidupan Liar 1972
http://www.mediafire.com/?z4dttlhmnol

and one funny statement in the PERHILITAN Guideline item 3.2;

"Di bawah Akta APSPP 75 yang dimaksudkan, burung telah diisytiharkan dalam jadual (Ruj: RKPBV/6/5/1 LLC.ll.PN.PU.297) sebagai salah satu daripada "serangga pembawa penyakit".

Looks like PERHILITAN is a bit confused... i mean confusing a bird with an insect! Anyway this somehow gives MOH jurisdiction as well;
Akta Pemusnahan Serangga Pembawa Penyakit 1975
http://www.mediafire.com/?0qd0rfbzfdm

the statement was 'burung' or birds... so i am assuming ALL avians are included.

The "Edible-Nest Swiftlets Management In Asia" book... i tak larat nak scan. Sorry guys. The only commendable work or with the most credible research was from Dr. Lim Chan Koon of course. Others were mere writings based on other studies and more comparative rather than real research per se.

Haha, i agree with Cergau, some people are obedient fools, even when its soooo clear what they are doing is wrong.

I am anticipating who will come out with the national policy/guideline on the Swiftlet Industry. I hope the Ministry Of Natural Resources & Environment (PERHILITAN) and MOA (Dept Of Vet Services) will solve this. I mean, if two or more guidelines came out... which one to follow? >.<

This post has been edited by dunsuntutmybuntut: Nov 2 2009, 02:48 PM

[/quote]

Of recent, there r a lot of birdnest buyers coming esp to East Malaysia including from Indonesia n China. East Malaysia facing south china sea is well known for the quality of nests both from caves or houses. The demand increases due the coming festival seasons, hence price also move up. The current prices 4 grade A - rm4.5k, B-4k, Corner 3.2k, C-2.9k-3k. traders from china, hk or macau r looking for processed nests or raw nests with higher price provided send direct to them.
So any comments on current pricing. tq

I noticed in item 5.1 (GP PERHILITAN), one must have 4 Licenses;

1. Lesen Premis from PBT (if applicable i guess)
2. Lesen Mengambil Sarang from PERHILITAN
3. Lesen Perniagaan Sarang from PERHILITAN
4. Lesen Import/Eksport from PERHILITAN
Qouted posting by dunsuntutmybuntut

That's the trouble as everything seem to involve the Perhilitan and P smell trouble as they still refer the swiftlet as cave's and the still use poster of swiftlets and printed "swallow" , so where are we heading , I am afraid ....the first to go is the town and the estate will be no better. According to the Perhilitan, you need a pemit to harvest nests, a permit to keep nests, a permit to export nests and infact a permit for everything except your own black bird and eggs, sorry for my bad manners.

To make matter worst, some BH owners are not cooperating, they blast their sound like nobody's business, trying to outdo his neighbor, even thought their Bhs already has thousand of nests .....making life so difficult for those like us to defend the Swiftlets sanctuaries in town in a peaceful and acceptable compromised understandings with the local authorities which are not in favour of our BHs in town in the first place.

Heard that Penang and Melaka been serve notice to quit by the end of the year....is the News real??????

[COLOR=red]2. Lesen Mengambil Sarang from PERHILITAN

We are not harvest the nest from cave,We are harvest from our own porperty,
why we need to get approval from the Suck department?For sure cave is not our property,
Why our property still need other people approval to do something????

M's book & he mentioned bird flight in clockwise & anti clockwise directions as a consideration for the inlet design.
(I dont recall this being discussed in V1).
And Dr Chris's book mentioned that a particular direction is adopted by the whole colony.

As for my opinion, it's all depend on the entrance placement and if in the area where there are already established BHs, it's will be the way of the past like we human being...either the right handed driving or the left handed driving.

Because the birds are the government's property?

Dear Bro West Wing, where can i get my hands on Dr. Chris's book?

Just to share some info with all... today i spent two hours at DVS state HQ & two hours ++ at state PERHILITAN HQ...

At DVS... i was shown a circular dated 15th August 09, stating that the DVS is the 'Agensi Peneraju' for the commercial swiftlet industry. This of course includes the GAHP which is currently being revised, when it will be completed is still to be known. HOWEVER, the jurisdiction of harvesting/selling/exporting nest still falls under PERHILITAN and premise still under PBT for now. DVS has no problem at all with swiftlet sanctuary providers (allow me to use your term Bro West Wing, since it is the most suitable term)... but again they only provide the policy or guideline uniform for all states... KPPBT should also do something like that, a uniformed ruling applicable for all states (as long as it is lenient and acceptable to the industry).

PERHILITAN on the other hand... were also receptive... i questioned and argued about the 1976 Act whereby there was no mention of any population based definition for the animals listed in jadual 1-5. He explained frankly that AF no matter how much the population may be... is still a wild animal... not a domesticated bird. Heck, had to agree. However in 2003 AF was moved from jadual 3, to jadual 4, from a fully protected species, to a protected species (which might explain why the GAHP 2003 was made in a hurry and rather lousy)... thus enabling PERHILITAN to issue permits/licenses for harvesting(KPM26)/selling(19A)/exporting(21A). Only PERHILITAN HQ (Cheras) can issue them.

Honestly speaking, both agencies were still unsure of recent developments since the higher ups are still in discussion (have no idea who are advising them, but i hope they do a good job with the industry's interest as priority). I hope full authority will be given to DVS... which i see as more suitable... but since AF no matter how many BH's there are and millions of birds around... is still wild... thus the function of PERHILITAN cannot be removed totally. I'd rather if PERHILITAN just took care of cave birds/nests and leave BH's alone for DVS to govern.

This post has been edited by dunsuntutmybuntut: Nov 3 2009, 09:06 PM

WW, are you saying the direction (clockwise or anti) they fly is conditioned by the entrance placement in established BHs?
Would I be right to think that left/right is only significant for the LARs and not so much the entrance as I will probably go the established way of a big enuff entrance to cater for both left & right drivers?
Sorry if these Qs sound very fundamental to some.
thanks in advance.

PS I too heard some other stuff from the talk given by some gomen dept in paya indah.
Seems there was some mention of RM100K each been provided at district level to start up BHs.
Rough est RM149mil (from budget) split equally gives RM24.8mil each for
1)fruits 2)vegetables 3)organic farming 4)herbs 5)seaweeds 6)swiftlet nests
If their sums are good, at RM100K for each BH, there wil be 248 BHs being built by whom, ownership?, operated under guidance of the gomen dept?

If I fail in my venture & blow my EPF, I will try to get the contract to do birdshit shovelling for these BHs and sell as guano to the other
5 budget initiatives with RM24.8mil each to blow. Siapa ada jalan/saudara/kabel?
I propose to structure the agreement like the hiway concession, if the birds dun give me enuff shit the gomen will have to make up for it.
Then in a proud parliamentary announcement that this is a zero cost initiative to the rakyat as it will be totally mitigated by internal gomen reserves of shit.
After monopoly of birdshit I will make a move on livestock, ....starting with bulls
For once I am within topic of the thread. So no apologies this time.

---

Added on November 3, 2009, 11:59 pmFor the English ver
http://www.agc.gov.my/agc/index.php?option...mid=204&lang=en
scroll to 76
Protection of Wild Life Act 1972
Akta Perlindungan Hidupan Liar 1972

An extract
“wild bird” means the birds (protected or totally protected)
described in Schedules Three and Four whatever their state of
maturity or immaturity notwithstanding that they may be tamed
or bred in captivity;

Dunsun,
Your point of contention that there isn't any scientific basis of any specie be in any schedule is still valid.
The universal measure is still a count or some formal estimation method that can withstand some scrutiny.
It doesnt (IMHO based on above para read in isolation) hinge on wheter it is wild or domesticated, it hinges on wheter it is in any of the relevant schedule.

PS just found this on the CITES site whcih Malaysia is a member
www.cites.org/eng/cop/10/doc/E10-50.pdf (will read it tomorrow)
My quick browsing gives further justification to your contention.

This post has been edited by Cergau: Nov 3 2009, 11:59 PM

The problem facing exporting of unprocessed EBN is that Perhilitan(Cheras) requires you to provide all information on sellers and all sellers must have harvesting permit and which BH owner has it????? You must buy the ledger book to record all transactions in detail like date,from whom, permit to harvest no, quantity, amount and all these must tally with your export of nests or @store. Therefore, better sell processed nests as this will be under different agencies like DVS which are friendly to us. Or..... otherwise......go underwater

The last time that I was there @ Perhilitan, Cheras to get permit to export unprocessed nests; I protested that for the BH, no one need premit to harvest and I was challenged by the Perhilitan officer to name those who didn't have permit and still harvest EBNs. Luckily for all of us, I think they must still be sleeping @ Cheras.

That point may still be valid bro Cergau, population based definition of any species... however the issue now is the term WILD. To tell the truth, that 1972 Act has many loopholes (ie the inclusion basis of any species into the schedule as mentioned by Cergau, no definition whatsoever, thats why i mentioned before if suddenly the Pengarah Perhilitan went nuts and included cicak or tikus in the schedule... we'd all be applying permits for them since almost all homes have them!)... i even failed to get CITES's definition of protected, fully protected, endangered and other terms.

Too long underwater, we might drown! >.< Bro West Wing... the way you say it... makes it look like PERHIITAN wants details of each supplier, tracking every source... and making us rat out our fellow BH owners... sounds sleazy, abusive and bully like. However, there is a very simple way to overcome this right without going underwater? >.<

It is these issues... from premise... harvesting... trade... export of raw nests... PERHILITAN has its claws in. I just hope by some miracle DVS will be fully responsible for the industry, in every stage for commercial swiftlet activities... sounds impossible but hopefully with the current momentum a miracle will happen. AMEN!!!

Dunsun, WW,
After perusing the act below, Perhilitan is merely enforcing the present law as it stand.
(Both BM & EN versions from the Attorney General's office
http://www.agc.gov.my/agc/index.php?option...mid=204〈=en
scroll to 76
Protection of Wild Life Act 1972
Akta Perlindungan Hidupan Liar 1972)

In my layman opinion, we can only challenge why Collocalia fuciphaga is still in jadual 4 despite the CITES stating that it is not in any imminent risk.

extract.....
Conclusions and Recommendations of the Workshop
14. Edible nest swiftlets are widespread and abundant across their historical range. Their aggregate populations
are estimated as tens of millions, based on current yields from nest harvesting. Despite documented declines in some cave populations, there is no immediate conservation risk.

Management
20. Ensuring the sustainability of swiftlet nest harvesting will also require attention to the following:
21. – monitoring of cave populations – this can be done by population survey and/or trade data. Trade data give minimum estimates of total population size. Population surveys should use standardized techniques and practical sampling strategies;
22. – mechanisms for controlling harvests;
23. – ability to adapt management in the light of new information or results of monitoring;
24. – periodic reviews to evaluate the effectiveness of management regimes;
25. – in the interest of conserving the genetic integrity of wild populations, establishment of swiftlet nest houses undertaken using local stock; and
26. – the participation of local communities in management, noting that enabling them to share economic
benefits is likely to increase the effectiveness of harvest regulations.
end extract.....
http://www.cites.org/eng/cop/10/doc/E10-50.pdf

So, why is Perhilitan still adamant on keeping it in Jadual 4?
Is it in adherence to pt 21 above on trade data?
If only Perhilitan does a better job of selling the idea that they are also working in the interest of the swiftlet & the EBN industry by collating statistic which will plainly favour the EBN industry!
Perhilitan can take the initiative & turn this to their advantage by utilising some of the recent budget money to build BH for our asli brothers (who are harvesting the cave nests) which will lessen the pressure on the cave swiftlets and a chance to rebound. (cant help if it's is caused by habitat destruction in the immediate environment).
This is an opportunity for Perhilitan to regain their standing in the eyes of the world.
For now, simplify the process in obtaining the licences, 3in1 process?
Go on a roadshow to educate the BH owners Perhilitan is on the same side as the EBN industry.
(It will be no lie as more swiftlets means we succeed & you also succeed).
Simplify the process of communication between the two.
PM will surely take notice of this turnaround, instead of complaints against you you will be facilitating the trade & you recover the cave population. Win Win. ..........Perhilitan BERANI?...........


I certainly do not know your job & will not pretend to tell you what to do.
No offence intended.
Just a humble citizen's challenge to PERHILITAN to rise to the occasion.

Hi Everyone.

I've been following this thread for quite some time and it's really benefits me alot.

I'm planning to bring some nest to overseas and other than hand carry, i knew i need to apply epermit and then only go for PERHILITAN.

Can i know anyone here have any experience on how to fill in the epermit registration form?

Thanks alot!!

This post has been edited by dc_hunter: Nov 4 2009, 03:53 PM

Dunsun,
even Perhilitan is not above the law.
There is no definition of wild & wild is not used by itself in the act.
There are definitions of wild animal & wild bird in the act.
IMHO Perhilitan's jurisdiction are over those species in the schedules NOT because it is WILD.
This is what my layman understanding of the act.

Thks Dusun bang for the feedback on PERHILITAN.

Only 3 words to summarised:- Mega Red Tapes


3 major enemies of Swiftlet ie Perhititan, Inconsiderate Swiftlet Owners and Predators (aka owls, eagles, tikus).

Sensing another major enemy of SF on the rise ie MSM. Sickening to read the BS painted by the 1/2 brain reporters.

No wonder so many successful bhs on sales below market value now, guess some can sense tsunami coming while new birdies still loooking for new shops to buy.

Best is not to get politikus to be involved. But no way in this country not to get politikus to involve. When politikus involve, no logic, facts, biological findings etc requires to support u. Only $ and connection.


Agree we need 2 party system to have check and balance. The presence ruling party no doubt very efficient and quick to arrest their problems, over night image transformation and at the same time tarnish and sabotage image of the other side. Money can buy another nowadays, see who got the most money.

Long way to go man; unfortunately for some, fortunately for others. Just depend on which side you stand.

Talk to aunties, uncles, man on the streets to corporate level, all asking why PR in fight here and there huh?! Oh well, nobody bother to see beyond what happen behind the scene. Money, money, money ... who got money ...

This post has been edited by Bobby C: Nov 4 2009, 05:08 PM

I read the document bro Cergau, thanks a bunch, haven't came thru that one yet. However... i have this tingling feeling that that paper/workshop only talks of cave nests, only concerned with cave nests... not nests harvested from BH's. I'll try reading it again to make sure.

There are plans of making a one stop center for swiftlet permits/licensing, i am sure brother Cergau is aware of this if you were present at the Paya Indah Workshop (i wasn't present, but if i was i'd shoot down the officers with 1001 questions just for fun!). I agree as well about the education part, this also is the responsibility of associations, they have to educate and work with the relevant agencies (i am still crossing my fingers that DVS be the one with 100% authority for commercial BH's)... and while doing that, why not educate the public as well??? More public awareness, the more wider the local market can be.

Hahahaha!!! TRUE. Lets try doing what we can to get that Mega Red Tape into a Thin Red Thread. Haaaaa.... Bobby C also might be sensing that some sort of conspiracy is present against the BN industry!! Hehehe!! (maybe becoz i grew up with John Grisham's & Robert Ludlum books).

Honestly speaking Bobby C, one reason there are so many BH's with no permits or license from PBT/Perhilitan is not just because of red tape... but due to elements of racism as well. I am not pointing any fingers... but this is a well known fact, bias. I recently went to Kuala Selangor and was greeted with the sounds of bird calls... non-stop bird calls... obviously not following guidelines. Had breakfast and by chance sat to a table besides a group of people wearing uniforms with clearly embroidered 'PENGUATKUASA' on them. Being the type that just 'sondols' no matter who i'm facing, started talking and asking a few things. 'You tak dengar ke bunyi burung bising ni?', 'semua rumah ni ada permit ke tak ni?', 'kenapa tak tarik permit kalau langgar syarat?', 'siapa punya rumah burung ni?', 'pihak majlils betul ke ada hak nak keluarkan permit, ada dalam undang2 kecil ke?'... among others. Ok fine... the issue of errant owners blasting bird calls the whole day itself is enough to give the industry a bad name... other than that, the premises i guess was ok, only observed from the outside anyways (i heard that the new shoplots were owned by the Majlis itself, but the upper floors were not fully occupied thus explaining why some are turned into BH's... the place is sooooooo suitable). Most of the bird houses were Chinese owned, but the enforcement guys said that during application of permits, they used a Malay proxy or Malay friends name. I asked why... somehow they sensed that i wasn't really an industry antagonist and politely asked to be excused because of duty. Dammit, should have brought a recorder!

From that, i see a few important points;

1. Errant BH owners & lousy enforcement. Both give the industry a bad name. The sound pollution was obvious and yet both deafened their ears.
2. Why must a Chinese Malaysian have to resort to using a Malay proxy to apply for BH permits? Why must agencies that should be serving all, be
so biased? This is not fair.

Sorry la complaining here. Wish the agencies could be like the swiftlets... as long as the conditions of the BH are suitable... they'll sleep, nest and reproduce in it no matter who the BH owner is... Chinese ke, Malay ke, Indian ke or any skin color and race.

This post has been edited by dunsuntutmybuntut: Nov 5 2009, 06:15 AM

I wasn't, what with their selective notice...so now you know, there were goodies to be dished out..
I heard from a friend who had teh tarik with some participants in the night. Gomen folks acquainted thru angling activities.
Me thinks that the neatest way to fix this in the following manner.
Refine Collocalia in the schedule into Cave (or some other clever description to specifically exclude man made structure) dwelling & Non Cave dwelling to satisfy the dissenting view of dwindling cave populations.
There is ordy sufficient scientific study to differentiate Fuciphagus from Domesticus.
As CITES specifically does not compel member states to any specific classification, this is feasible.
extract.....
15. The taxonomy of the swiftlets is confusing, with several different nomenclatures in use (Sibley and Monroe,
1990, followed by CITES; Chantler and Driessens, 1995; Cranbrook et al., 1996). There is no obligation
on scientists or managers to use any one nomenclature either now or in the future but there should always
be a clear indication of which is being used. Er et al. (1995) provide a list of synonyms which may assist
people in understanding the situation more fully.
end extract.....

QUOTE(dunsuntutmybuntut @ Nov 3 2009, 09:04 PM)
Dear Bro West Wing, where can i get my hands on Dr. Chris's book?

I overlook your this question and sorry........but I haven't read any book on swiftlets by any expert and all I learn is by old way and that's by trial and errors..... sometime right and sometime wrong but if it worked for me, I just let you know and hope that it work for you, sharing our experiences in the trade make us all better men. As I did mentioned before, I would one day like to read books on swiftlets by experts but surely I am not buying but just borrowing lah cos I am very calculative and also always past comments on other works or seminars if I think that it is wrong or incorrect............. which is very bad and no manner on my part. Although, I never mean any harm but just passing comments or disagreement on other works seem like an unhealthy thing to do ................Would someone please help our friend on it??

By the way, what's the latest news on the development in BH esp. @ town but I know no news is good news!!!!! In my area, still no action by the authorities but some BH owners here are back to disco music day and night and aren't cooperating at all............sooner or later, we all get tembak and I have given up hope of trying to diffuse the situation as hopeless to try taking senses to cow's brain....today, they remember and follow and few days later, back to square one.