Ok I know completely nothing about the Hebrew language nor the Jewish faith or their worldviews, so chances I am highly misled. Got it.

I am just a laity and was a lector for today's morning mass Ecc 15:15-20 and the priest was a new guy who had been transferred to our church and this morning he presided it. I understood everything he mentioned during the sermon, which frankly is the best sermon I have heard for a long time. However there was 1 part which I did not understand when the priest said this "Jesus's Sermon on the Mount is weird." He was referring to our Lord teachings especially the Beautitudes.

To be ordained as a priest, one would have to pass all the studies and found to be a sane mind, correct ? I presume that there they would have studied Hebrew language or even the Jewish faith and traditions etc to have a better grasp on the issue. Basically they like you and many here, would know more than an nobody like me.

My question is what is weird about Jesus's teachings on true happiness ? Do you find anything weird too about the Sermon on the Mount ?

This post has been edited by Roman Catholic: Feb 12 2023, 05:55 PM

I would imagine it so since you are in the Roman institution.
Many pagan practices have infiltrated that institution unfortunately.
And many seminaries do NOT teach Hebrew. My guess is that the Roman Church uses Latin instead.

i am also a nobody on Jewish understanding as far as theology is concerned.
Long way to go.

On the Beatitudes, this may help.

https://www.hebrew4christians.com/Scripture...beatitudes.html

Some Catholic priests still practices the Latin rites.

You dont have to shy la. Is there anyone else here, who thinks that the Sermon on the Mount is weird ? Please share your thoughts. Condition is one must be a practicing Christian.

I have a score to settle with the priest on what is the weird teaching on the Mount. LOL

This post has been edited by Roman Catholic: Feb 12 2023, 06:30 PM

No argument with that


But who ask?

Jesus Christ wants to be savior, not as an example, teacher or prophet PART 2

In conjunction with the title of this devotion. I will share an interesting revelation between Luke 14 and Luke 15.

In Luke 14, Christ was at a house of a VIP Pharisee and He was being scrutinized for all that he say or do. The Pharisees merely saw him as a teacher. And you will note all their questions were about performances or doings. "is it lawful to heal on Sabbath?" They never recognized Jesus as One who saves but as one to follow after as an example. Hence why they keep testing Christ to see if he knows the law.

The point was "performances before God". This was where they missed the entire point completely.

Romans 10 has this to say

QUOTE

Romans 10 (NIV)
1 brother and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4 Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

Verse 4 of Romans 10 says it very clearly. The righteousness of Christ is given to everyone who believes not everyone who performed.

As outlined in Hebrew 11, Faith in essence = You being confident of what you hope, assured as in given a title deed to an inheritance but yet to possess the inheritance.

This is the Bible's definition of Faith. The confidence of believe is very emphatically strong. It is never about works or performances. I would caution that we are careful as not to change the meaning.

Continuing on Luke 14, you can tell that Christ was not pleased when they only see Him as an example to be followed like a teacher, prophet, etc. You can tell by the parables that he unleashed to them, talking about the Great Banquet, where the invitation was given free. Nobody had to prove their worth by their Faith + Deeds working hand in hand. No such requirement was mentioned. Yet they all gave excuses. This is the disdain of our human heart. Sometimes we just cannot believe God is really that good. We say "it sounds too good to be true". Salvation is really free? No, we must prove our worth by our obedience.

You can study this and research for yourself. Whenever anyone comes to Christ and sees Him as an example to follow after, you will note that Our Lord will unleash the Law back to you for you to gauge whether you are able or not.

This is why Christ gave such hard challenges and told them If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father or mother. Christ even gave 2 accounts of building a tower and going to war with another King.

STOP! Think for a moment why did Christ give such an account? The answer is simple. It is for you to reflect if you are able to or not. Remember on the account of War, the other party has much more men (10K vs 20K) than you have. THINK ABOUT THIS friend. Why mention the large army you are going against? You'd think this was stated for fun? Look at the revelation in there, there are never insignificant details in the Bible there are ALWAYS purposes.
(p.s. in case you are still clueless...it is for you to know you will never win by your works/performances).

If you don't agree and you might ask what has work/performance got to do with the Cost of Discipleship? I'll ask you this; what has to hate your parents, building a tower, and going to war to do with being Christ's disciples?

Is it not to gauge your performance?

Yet in other parts of the Bible, many times repeatedly Salvation is given to those who believe. Do you see this contrast?

I'll prove this theology by this account of Rich Young Ruler. When he ask "what must I do to have eternal life"? What did Christ answer him? Again I must remind the reader...this rich young rule merely saw Christ as a teacher. (Matthew 19:16). Christ gave him the Law back (doing/performances). Go sell all you have. That rich young ruler was abit smug if you ask me. "All these I have kept". Self Righteousness. In the end, he couldn't.

Why didn't Christ tell him; to believe in Him? Isn't to believe on Christ, recorded in all the other books as requirement for Salvation?

Do you see this now?

I have yet to expound on Luke 15 and I still have to explain on We are God's Handiwork. Emphasis is on work right? That will be in Part 3 and 4. Long devotion series but worth the knowledge as it will give you grace to know you are saved apart from your works needed.

God Bless.

Jesus Christ wants to be savior, not as an example, teacher or prophet PART 3

Read the Entire chapter of Luke 15 - 3 Parables Lost coin, Lost Sheep & Prodigal Son

In Luke 14, Jesus Christ was not pleased in his spirit when the people who came to him only saw Him as a Teacher. Nicodemus one of Israel's greatest called Christ "Rabbi". Rabbi basically means teacher.

Whenever anyone comes to Jesus seeing Him only as a pattern, Jesus will unleash the Law to bring the person to the end of himself. Give up all you have to follow me. The rich young ruler couldn't do it. Luke 14 is the account of people who came to Jesus seeing Him only as a pattern, a teacher to follow after.

BUT

In Luke 15, The bible begins with this phrase:

"Now the tax collectors and sinners were all gathering around to hear Jesus". These are the people who had nothing to give to Jesus but they all came to receive from Him. They were hoping in their heart that this is the awaited messiah. The next verse, confirms it. It says in verse 2 "This man welcomes sinners and eats with them".

THIS crowd pleases the Lord. These are the crowd that is looked down upon by Pharisees. Yet Christ is a friend of sinners. Note to your church, don't ever reject people like drug addicts or even prostitutes or people who dressed lewd coming to Church. Sure we can reprimand them but don't do it in holier than thou attitude. If Jesus eats with such who are we to do the opposite?

You can tell the heart of Christ changed and is pleased when he gave this crowd no laws but grace. Look at all the 3 parables. BTW, these 3 parables all talk about repentance. Quite sure I've just heard the admonition that I'm not sharing enough on "repentance". BTW take note Christ answered the Pharisees in these 3 parables when they accused Him of eating with sinners. It is the answer to their accusation.

So okay here it is, you want to hear direct teaching from the mouth of our Lord Jesus Himself on repentance?

Question.

How did the lost sheep or lost coin act in repentance? What did they do?

All I see is the Finder leaving the 99 behind, or lighting the lamp to sweep for that lost coin. All I see is the finder laying hold of the lost on his shoulder, rejoicing.
And when he comes home, he said "REJOICE with me". I see the finder being the one who gave a party in celebration, there is music and dancing.

I can almost hear criticism of No DANCING, toe taping, and hip swaying in churches. They are SACRILIEGE!!!. These people don't know their bible well enough.

Anyway back to the subject, what was their repentance? Even the prodigal son was cut short, not allowing him to regurgitate his rehearsed repentance speech.

I submit to you, this is the repentance that our Lord Jesus Christ wants.

It is for you to consent, HIM (Our Lord) to find you and to carry you on his strong shoulders. Christ did not say to such, You learn to walk after me, leave your father, mother, and everything behind. When one allows himself to be loved, to be found, and to be carried by God not going in your own strength. That is repentance according to God's POV. If you have spiritual eyes to see and ears to hear.

When the Pharisees tried to give Him a great feast and saw Him only as Rabbi/Teacher, Christ wasn't pleased. When the crowd of sinners came to Him to take from Him, to receive from Him with nothing to give Him...it give JOY to the Lord!

Notice that our Lord Jesus only gave the demands of Law to people who think their acts of performance mattered, but He NEVER gave the Law to people who see Him as Savior which really pleases Him.

I hope you can see the comparison between Luke 14 and 15. I still have God's Handiwork to explain, that will be in part 4.

Hope this blesses you because it gives everyone equal ground to come to God. God Bless.

Jesus Christ wants to be savior, not as an example, teacher or prophet PART 4

Ephesians 2: 8-10 (NIV) - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

I want to start by saying there are many teachings/preaching that seem to put heavy demands on the sinner. This was what the Pharisees did and was rebuked for it, by God Himself. (Matthew 4:4 (NIV) - They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.)

How is it that we don't understand what Christ is trying to say here? To me, scripture does imply Christ doesn't want heavy or cumbersome loads for his children. The phrase lift a finger to move them means to remove those heavy and cumbersome loads. That is what is means. And it's not just God who wants these burdens to be lifted but also expect teachers to do the same for his children . So any teaching or preaching not inline with this is not inline with God.

One of the greatest flaws is that such erroneous teaching, it puts the onus of the workload on the believer to perform. Yes as indicated they will use the words; repentance is the response to faith and it's not works. These teaching are really contradicting if not in denial of their own meanings.

Would you agree that Christ Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow? If yes then you will agree that God is consistent in his methods, would not do one thing for a person and create different sets of rules for others.

The dying thief, How did he obtain salvation? He managed to prove his faith by his acts of repentance? Mind you, he was on cross. All he could do was confess by faith in his mouth. And Yet Christ granted him Salvation by the confession of his mouth (IE Faith). Confession is one thing but whether that thief was able to prove his walk is another matter. Isn't the proving of his walk are what these critiques criticizing?

Faith is the pre-requisite. Change of heart or Fruits of the spirit are the works of God. We cannot use fruits as pre-requisite for salvation because everyone is a work in progress. There are no instantaneous change next day over night. Trying to disagree or refute that is akin to wanting to see beard being grown on babies.

Anyway there is scripture to explain on work in progress, indicated by strong vs weak faith:

QUOTE

Romans 14
1 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

......

10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister  ? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat.

The whole phrase in Greek of Romans 14 use the metaphor of food but it isn't just about food. Because at the end of Romans 14 verse 21 and 23, it uses the word "anything" and "everything that does not come from faith is sin."

Then what about being God's Handiwork to do good works? Well look the pre-requisite of what is needed before you are able to do good works.

Answer is "Grace". Allow me to paraphrase Ephesians 2: 8-10:

For it is by the unmerited favor of God (IE Grace) that you are saved not by your efforts, it is a gift of God, so nobody has bragging rights. For of Him (Christ) we are workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God did before prepare, that in them we may walk.

For Him of Christ means WITHOUT Grace or WIHOUT God being the root source for change or empowerment, you cannot do any good works. In fact John 15:5 Strongly tells us;

Without Christ, we can do nothing.

So how is it that you are demanding of what God is doing as pre-requisite to Salvation? You are demanding for God to hurry up to work in the person? You dare to demand of that? If you're saying the demand is on the believer, then If God is the one working, who are you to be impatience? If you are arguing the person is still doesn't change after so many years, then it's your responsibility to pray and love the person until he/she finds God. Not this judgmental being hard on people. This attitude doesn't change anybody and God isn't like this to his beloved.

You will never find Christ being hard on the sinners who come to Him. Even zacchaeus was saved because he exhibited faith. How do I know this?

Luke 19:9 (NIV) - Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham

Those of faith, these are the sons of Abraham. (Galatians 3:7)


So to sum it all up, remember:

1. God wants the believer to be free from heavy/cumbersome requirements.
2. The fruits or changing of person, the work is of God.
3. Pre-requisite given to the dying Thief for salvation is faith and it's the same for everyone else.
4. Don't judge another brethren who are still WIP with contempt.
5. Without Christ (God), you can do NOTHING.

Some people don't believe in No.5. They think they still can do something. This is where they've missed it completely. I rather believe in God. If God says nothing then that is the truth, nothing.

There you have it.

Friend let Christ be the complete savior. If you want to give God the Glory then let God do all the work. There is no, you partly having a small part of saving yourself working hand in hand with God. There is no such theology in the Bible.

I'll finish by leaving this theology for you to meditate.

Romans 4:4-5 (NIV) - Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Will God work in the believer who has complete trust in Him? Answer is a resounding Yes. For sure change will come but not in burdensome manner but one of divine rest in the Lord. You'll note that Christ never panics and was never worried in all that He does. He would the same of you.

God Bless.

I will just leave this here

“I want to thank my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ . . .”

If those are the first words out of an athlete’s mouth after a big win, we’re pretty sure we have an evangelical on our hands. As unnatural as those moments feel at times, many of us appreciate the heart behind it. Even if we cringe, we want to simultaneously celebrate that good instinct for a Christian to acknowledge Jesus not only as rescuer but also master.

“Lord and Savior” became a kind of evangelical calling card in the last generation, and for good reason. The phrase comes out of the 1980s battles on “lordship salvation” (even with its roots planted firmly in 2 Peter 1:11; 2:20; 3:2, 18). Could a truly born-again person receive Jesus as Savior, but not as Lord? Can you pray a prayer, walk an aisle, sign a card, and receive Jesus’s saving, but not his lordship?

The most compelling voices in the controversy stood with their feet steadied on the rock of God’s own words, and argued that to receive Jesus savingly is to receive him as all that he is — “Jesus is Lord.” You cannot reject his lordship and still have him as your get-out-of-hell-free Savior. No one knows all that his lordship means when we first believe, but as we learn more about the real Christ, we receive him as all that he is.

Is ‘Lord and Savior’ Enough?
I’m thankful for those who fought for Christ’s lordship a generation ago, and continue to proclaim it today. And in the days and context in which I pastor, I’m finding “Lord and Savior” to be both essential and inadequate. More needs to be said about who Jesus is for us.

When we stand over the Lord’s Table at our church each Sunday morning, and as we teach our children at home and in Sunday School, we don’t stop at identifying Jesus as “Lord and Savior.” We’re finding it’s all the more helpful to add a third title to this well-worn evangelical phrase — to help clarify what kind of Lord, and what kind of Savior, we embrace Jesus to be.

What Kind of Lord?
What kind of Lord is Jesus? The kind who not only deserves our obedience, but wins our admiration. He is the kind of King we not only acknowledge with our taxes and military service, but with our adoration and delight.

He is not a selfish lord, but a self-sacrificing lord. He’s not a mean lord, but a kind one. He is not the insecure, cowardly Prince John who opposed Robin Hood, but the winsome, magnanimous King Richard, a king for whose return his subjects longed. He is not a lord like Scar, but like Mufasa. Not Denethor, but Aragorn. Not the White Witch, but Aslan.

“He is not a selfish lord but a self-sacrificing lord.”
He is the kind of Lord who is also our greatest treasure — a lord so good that we would sell all that we have to be his glad servants giving ourselves to the treasure he is (Matthew 13:44). He is our Pearl of Greatest Price (Matthew 13:45–46). Not only have we seen that he is powerful, but we “have tasted that the Lord is good” (1 Peter 2:3). He is not a lord we disdain, but one we admire. He is a giving lord, not an exacting lord (Matthew 18:27). He is “the Lord Jesus Christ himself . . . who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace” (2 Thessalonians 2:16).

He is not just “Lord,” but also “Treasure.” He is the kind of lord in whom we delight.

What Kind of Savior?
And what kind of Savior is Jesus? The kind who not only deserves our gratitude, but wins our love. He is the kind of rescuer who plucks us from fire, and who is himself the waters of life.

He is not like a lifeguard who saves us from the undertow to hand us off to our family, but like our own father who rescues us from the riptide for himself to give us the longest, sweetest, and most memorable hug we ever had. His rescue is not like that of a paramedic, fireman, police officer, or soldier honorably “just doing my job,” but in his rescue he demonstrates his personal, covenantal, eternal love for us. Our salvation doesn’t show his commitment to his work as much as his commitment to his child.

He is not just “Savior,” but also “Treasure.” He is the kind of Savior who is also “a treasure in the heavens that does not fail” (Luke 12:33).

What Kind of Treasure?
And just as Jesus being our “Treasure” flavors what it means to receive him as Lord and Savior, so also his lordship and his deliverance inform and enrich the enjoyment of our Pearl of Great Price. What kind of treasure is he? Not a thing we buy and hide and rule over, but a person we gladly obey and to whom we happily give our allegiance. This is the kind of Lord-Treasure he is.

“Our salvation doesn’t show God’s commitment to his work as much as his commitment to his child.”
And Jesus not only stands above us and receives our worship, but he is the one who stooped so low for us and got beneath us to serve us. He is the kind of Treasure who did not regard equality with God to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking our form and being born in our likeness. And as human, he humbled himself to the point of death, even death on a cross (Philippians 2:6–8). This is the kind of Savior-Treasure he is. This is the kind of Savior for whom we would “count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord” (Philippians 3:8).

God has highly exalted him and given him the name above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (Philippians 2:9–11). He is the kind of Treasure who gladly saves us and whom we gladly call our Lord. Jesus is our “Lord, Savior, and Treasure.”

David Mathis (@davidcmathis) is executive editor for desiringGod.org and pastor at Cities Church. He is a husband, father of four, and author of Workers for Your Joy: The Call of Christ on Christian Leaders (2022).

This post has been edited by desmond2020: Feb 17 2023, 12:46 PM

The difference in calling Jesus ‘Lord’ and ‘Savior’
Implications for contemporary discipleship
By JEFF K. CLARKE and CHRISTIANWEEK ChristianWeek Columnist | March 12, 2017

When we replace the statement ‘Jesus is Lord’ (which happens to be one of the earliest Christian creeds) with the statement ‘Jesus is Savior’, it fundamentally changes the way we read, understand, and live out the gospel.

I’m not interested in removing the salvation element from faith, but I’m also not interested in narrowing the gospel to the point where we reduce it down to a system of salvation that decentralizes the controlling message of Jesus and the Kingdom of God.

The central and defining message of the Gospels generally, and of Jesus’ life and ministry specifically, is the Kingdom of God that he inaugurated. As a result, the call to follow after Jesus is one that includes forgiveness of sins, but also transcends it, to embrace a much larger scope of Kingdom activity.

The summons of Jesus’ call to ‘follow me’ and the emphasis laid out in the remainder of the New Testament is a call to answer to the declaration ‘Jesus is Lord'. To make Jesus ‘Lord’ is to repent of self-centredness and our ongoing attempts to ‘go it alone’. Repentance is about ‘turning around’ and the statement ‘Jesus is Lord’ captures the essence of that reorientation, providing its focus and Kingdom-centered direction.

Do we, therefore, remove the ‘Jesus is Savior’ element in Christian faith? Not at all. Instead, we reorient our focus by making Jesus’ Lordship (as King) the focus of attention by giving it the central significance it requires.

As Bruxy Cavey once said, “when we make Jesus Lord, we get Jesus as Savior thrown in.” That is, it becomes part of the total package. The order is important.

In short…

‘Jesus is Savior’ emphasizes sins forgiven. ‘Jesus is Lord’ emphasizes a reorientation in life, which includes sins forgiven. I’m no longer the king of my domain, Jesus is. This reorientation changes everything.
‘Jesus is Savior’ impacts me. ‘Jesus is Lord’ impacts me and everyone around me.
‘Jesus is Savior’ is often deeply personalistic and privatized. ‘Jesus is Lord’ retains the personal dynamic, but spreads out to impact everything and everyone around me. It is mission oriented (as sent ones) and seeks to reflect Jesus to others.
‘Jesus is Savior’ affects only the so-called spiritual aspects in life. ‘Jesus is Lord’ affects all of life; it is holistic and all-encompassing. It isn’t limited to Sunday, or a mid-week program, or more generally to the religious side of life. Instead, it lays at the center of life and thereby orients, shapes, and informs everything else.

My concern, and I’m not alone in this, is that many people have decided to make Jesus their personal Savior, but have yet to truly embrace him as Lord. The first asks people to seek forgiveness of sins, the second summons people to a lifetime of devoted discipleship to Jesus, while inviting others to follow along in the pursuit of the Kingdom.

The first centres on self, the second on Christ and his Kingdom. Any model that switches the order will short-circuit the controlling message of the gospel and effectively produce a mutated organism.

Discipleship is not optional and is not directed towards the few who choose to take Jesus seriously. With Christ, it was all or nothing or nothing at all. It was a summons with expectations.

‘Jesus is Lord’ demands our everything. ‘Jesus is Savior’ does not. The first focuses on a lifetime. The second on a one-time decision.

Unfortunately, the second does not always lead to the first. In fact, only about 50% of those who make decisions actually become disciples. Why? Because we center the call to follow on ‘Jesus is Savior’ and not ‘Jesus is Lord’. One demands nothing of us. The second demands our everything.

So you see there is a difference between calling Jesus Savior and making him Lord. And, the title we choose to prioritize deeply affects the way we view and experience the entire gospel.

Choose well.

Jesus Christ is my only Teacher.

Lordship Salvation is heavily defended by John McArthur. But not every bible teacher agrees with him.

I think there is a problem attached to it. It leads to; Salvation needs to be maintained and depends very much on what the believer do to maintain it. To me that is heresy. Salvation is never maintained by any human.

If Salvation can be maintain by the believer, you don't need a Savior in the 1st place. Salvation is the finished work of Christ who died on cross to remove your sins and this grace is given to you unmerited, credited to you because of your faith (believe) in Christ. This foundation can never be changed.

Yet at the same time, you cannot deny Jesus is Lord. So how do you reconcile both aspect of Salvation by grace and The Lordship of Christ?

Well read the Bible.

If you read your Bible well enough, you will find no where Jesus forces his Lordship on you as condition for Salvation. Lordship in the sense that you need to submit to the Lordship of God in order to be saved. (the emphasis is on doing something commanded by God) Again it leads back to Old Covenant theology.

The Dying Thief and Parables of prodigal son will refute that theology easily. And I disagree that Old and New Covenant are the same thing. If it's the same there is no need for new Covenant, the Old will suffice.

But we all want to submit to God as Lord still. There is no denying this.

And I agree when you receive Christ, He is both Lord And Savior. There is no separating this.

So how? Well Let God himself in the Bible teach on this.

We'll look at scriptures for context, in next devotion.

Romans 10:9
If you confess with your mouth "Jesus is Lord" and believe in your heart God raised him from the dead you will be saved.

Is the Paul. suggesting we just pay lip service? Or is he suggesting we need to possess this reality to be saved?To confess would mean you are knowingly pledging to commit to a covenant. It like when we make our marriage vows and confess to honour the other. Its done knowingly.

This post has been edited by SharpSword: Feb 17 2023, 06:45 PM

someone talk about lordship salvation. let hear the view from other side

The doctrine of lordship salvation teaches that submitting to Christ as Lord goes hand-in-hand with trusting in Christ as Savior. Lordship salvation is the opposite of what is sometimes called easy-believism or the teaching that salvation comes through an acknowledgement of a certain set of facts.

John MacArthur, whose book The Gospel According to Jesus lays out the case for lordship salvation, summarizes the teaching this way: “The gospel call to faith presupposes that sinners must repent of their sin and yield to Christ’s authority.” In other words, a sinner who refuses to repent is not saved, for he cannot cling to his sin and the Savior at the same time. And a sinner who rejects Christ’s authority in his life does not have saving faith, for true faith encompasses a surrender to God. Thus, the gospel requires more than making an intellectual decision or mouthing a prayer; the gospel message is a call to discipleship. The sheep will follow their Shepherd in submissive obedience.

Advocates of lordship salvation point to Jesus’ repeated warnings to the religious hypocrites of His day as proof that simply agreeing to spiritual facts does not save a person. There must be a heart change. Jesus emphasized the high cost of discipleship: “Whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple” (Luke 14:27), and “Those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples” (verse 33). In the same passage, Jesus speaks of counting the cost; elsewhere, He stresses total commitment: “No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God” (Luke 9:62).

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus says that eternal life is a narrow path found by “only a few” (Matthew 7:14); in contrast, easy-believism seeks to broaden the path so that anyone who has a profession of faith can enter. Jesus says that “every good tree bears good fruit” (verse 17); in contrast, easy-believism says that a tree can still be good and bear nothing but bad fruit. Jesus says that many who say “Lord, Lord” will not enter the kingdom (verses 21–23); in contrast, easy-believism teaches that saying “Lord, Lord” is good enough.

Lordship salvation teaches that a true profession of faith will be backed up by evidence of faith. If a person is truly following the Lord, then he or she will obey the Lord’s instructions. A person who is living in willful, unrepentant sin has obviously not chosen to follow Christ, because Christ calls us out of sin and into righteousness. Indeed, the Bible clearly teaches that faith in Christ will result in a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 5:22–23; James 2:14–26).

Lordship salvation is not a salvation-by-works doctrine. Advocates of lordship salvation are careful to say that salvation is by grace alone, that believers are saved before their faith ever produces any good works, and that Christians can and do sin. However, true salvation will inevitably lead to a changed life. The saved will be dedicated to their Savior. A true Christian will not feel comfortable living in unconfessed, unforsaken sin.

Here are nine teachings that set lordship salvation apart from easy-believism:

1) Repentance is not a simple synonym for faith. Scripture teaches that sinners must exercise faith in conjunction with repentance (Acts 2:38; 17:30; 20:21; 2 Peter 3:9). Repentance is a change of mind from embrace of sin and rejection of Christ to a rejection of sin and an embrace of Christ (Acts 3:19; Luke 24:47), and even this is a gift of God (2 Timothy 2:25). Genuine repentance, which comes when a person submits to the lordship of Christ, cannot help but result in a change of behavior (Luke 3:8; Acts 26:18–20).

2) A Christian is a new creation and cannot just “stop believing” and lose salvation. Faith itself is a gift of God (Ephesians 2:1–5, 8), and real faith endures forever (Philippians 1:6). Salvation is all God’s work, not man’s. Those who believe in Christ as Lord are saved apart from any effort of their own (Titus 3:5).

3) The object of faith is Christ Himself, not a promise, a prayer, or a creed (John 3:16). Faith must involve a personal commitment to Christ (2 Corinthians 5:15). It is more than being convinced of the truth of the gospel; it is a forsaking of this world and a following of the Master. The Lord Jesus said, “My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me” (John 10:27).

4) True faith always produces a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17). The inner person is transformed by the Holy Spirit (Galatians 2:20), and the Christian has a new nature (Romans 6:6). Those with genuine faith—those who are submitted to the lordship of Christ—follow Jesus (John 10:27), love their brothers (1 John 3:14), obey God’s commandments (1 John 2:3; John 15:14), do the will of God (Matthew 12:50), abide in God’s Word (John 8:31), keep God’s Word (John 17:6), do good works (Ephesians 2:10), and continue in the faith (Colossians 1:21–23; Hebrews 3:14). Salvation is not adding Jesus to the pantheon of one’s idols; it is a wholesale destruction of the idols with Jesus reigning supreme.

5) God’s “divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life” (2 Peter 1:3; cf. Romans 8:32). Salvation, then, is not just a ticket to heaven. It is the means by which we are sanctified (practically) in this life and by which we grow in grace.

6) Scripture teaches that Jesus is Lord of all. Christ demands unconditional surrender to His will (Romans 6:17–18; 10:9–10). Those who live in rebellion to God’s will do not have eternal life, for “God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble” (James 4:6).

7) Those who truly believe in Christ will love Him (1 Peter 1:8–9; Romans 8:28–30; 1 Corinthians 16:22). And those we love we long to please (John 14:15, 23).

8) Scripture teaches that behavior is an important test of faith. Obedience is evidence that one’s faith is genuine (1 John 2:3). If a person remains unwilling to obey Christ, he provides evidence that his “faith” is in name only (1 John 2:4). A person may claim Jesus as Savior and pretend to obey for a while, but, if there is no heart change, his true nature will eventually manifest itself. This was the case for Judas Iscariot.

9) Genuine believers may stumble and fall, but they will persevere in the faith (1 Corinthians 1:8). This was the case for Simon Peter. A “believer” who completely turns away from the Lord, never to return, plainly shows that he was never born again to begin with (1 John 2:19). This was the case for Judas Iscariot (see John 6:70).

A person who has been delivered from sin by faith in Christ should not desire to remain in a life of sin (Romans 6:2). Of course, spiritual growth can occur quickly or slowly, depending on the person and his circumstances. And the changes may not be evident to everyone at first. Ultimately, God knows who are His sheep, and He will mature each of us according to His perfect time table.

Is it possible to be a Christian and live in lifelong carnality, enjoying the pleasures of sin, and never seeking to glorify the Lord who bought him? Can a sinner spurn the lordship of Christ yet lay claim to Him as Savior? Can someone pray a “sinner’s prayer” and go about his life as if nothing had happened and still call himself a “Christian”? Lordship salvation says “no.” Let us not give unrepentant sinners false hope; rather, let us declare the whole counsel of God: “You must be born again” (John 3:7).

I've read thought that article and I think there is no argument against what is being explained n Lordship Salvation with regards to sin. We are all against sin as warned our Lord Jesus Christ. For the most part, we all want the same thing. I am for obedience to God, never anything else. God loves obedience. But how we get there I differ. I don't believe in doom prophet style of beating your chest, shouting You must love God, you must repent, you must be true to God, etc. This method has no power. It's only temporal because at times it due to riled up emotions and after while it dissipates.

I rather that we go by Life flowing with the Holy Spirit. Because if it's of spiritual power then it's eternal and will last.

If you study the life of Jesus Christ, He is always at peace, calm, never panic, never worried, never at lost. The way he gets the message to sinners are very heartwarming. If you noticed, Christ only uses strong words and only harshest to Pharisees and people who claim to be teachers of the Law but have no heart for God. But He is never harsh to sinners. You won't find Jesus angry at sinners like how advocates of Lordship Salvation does at times. Christ always exhibit grace to sinners who comes to Him. The rhythm flow of God's Holy Spirit is one of peace, never one of panicky, worried, calm and powerful on Salvation.

God's way is always steadfast assurance. You can take a note on this to know if it's from God.

With that being said; what is mainly disagreed against Lordship Salvation, is how one attains Salvation. It goes against what Jesus came to do. Don't get so feisty and upset, Let scripture explain this.

There is no such terminology called Lordship Salvation, this term was created by well meaning Man Of God but it is not accurate as how scripture records the pre-requisite for Salvation.

The word "gospel" comes from the Greek word evangelion (translated in Old English as "good news" or "god spel")

The Gospel that gives people Salvation is called The Gospel of Christ or The Gospel of Grace. Gospel means Good News. For good news to be good news, it must be good news not one that puts loads that at times hard to attain which can be bad news.

Galatians 1:6 (NIV) - I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel. Galatians 1 vs 6 was written to believers who were told they had to
keep OT laws to be saved. That is no different from telling believers that they must submit to Christ lordship in order to be saved. No difference at all, the act of obedience is what gets you saved, what more if you use the phrase "submission goes hand in hand with faith"..... that amplifying the demand of it.

The Grace of Christ is the gospel NOT Lordship Salvation.

What is Grace? Grace = unearned or unmerited favor of God. There is no other definition.

Grace is a gift, Ie Salvation a gift.

Gifts are something given to you that you do not earn. Salvation cannot be earned. Like a birthday gift. If gifts are given to you because you did something, it's no longer called a gift. And this is one of the area of what the good news is. Galatians 1:6 tells us that, the Gospel called the believer to live in the grace of Christ. Meaning you are called to living in the status of washed cleaned from sin, made holy by Christ freely, apart from your works. <---Need to understand this part.

To say that in order to get Salvation one must submit to Lordship of Christ (Not that it is wrong, in fact it's nothing wrong but rightfully so), the basis of attaining of Salvation is based on your obedience and no longer because it's the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. This is where Lordship Salvation has missed it. The finished work of Christ that open the door for Salvation is all the work of God, nothing to do with your obedience.

Romans 5:19 (NIV) - For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Scripture on Romans 5:19 basically refute the doctrine of Lordship Salvation and it could not be any clearer on this.

If Lordship Salvation is careful to say Salvation is by Grace alone, it contradicts itself. They don't understand the core meaning of grace. There are no perfect believers while we are still in this world. Why? Because we still live in a fallen corrupted body. That is why Grace is so important. We all need God's grace. The demand to see that the believer MUST have a converted heart ie leading to good works is something I believe only God alone holds the power to know. But for Man to presume that role of a judge (when you demand, it is judging on your part), it leads to the problem of what the Pharisees did which Christ was not pleased with. You become judgmental to believers not up to your expectation of what you think is a sanctified life.

Anyway, back to core subject, scripture further explained this;

Romans 4:4 (NIV) - Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.

To make it easy to understand, I'll use in the context of Lordship Salvation, Romans 4 verse 4 explains to us what it means where one's salvation is obligated to you because you think you submit to the Lordship of Christ versus given to you because you did nothing but trust God. (Verse 5).

If you deny that and don't agree that is what Lordship Salvation teaches then you should also agree your submission of obedience would not matter in obtaining Salvation, but you cannot, can you?

Do you see now how it contradicts the meaning of grace? I think this basically nailed the contradiction that advocates of Lordship Salvation try hard to deny.

Anyway, nobody is advocating anyone to live in lifelong carnality, enjoying the pleasures of sin. I think it doesn't even make sense to say that. because when one presents the gospel, the fact that sin being the core of all the problems in this world that need to be saved from should give clear indication it shouldn't be.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Feb 18 2023, 12:43 PM

Yes, feel free to PM me.

I don't log in regularly so there could be a delay in my reply to you.

someone said jesus was never angry. Oh well, many forget jesus is god, god of infinite justice. As bibles said, it is fearful thing to be at hand of god (Justice). If someone haven't forget that god is one, the OT have ample account of god being angry at sinners.

“For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” (Heb. 10:30-31)

When Jesus cleared the temple of the moneychangers and animal-sellers, He showed great emotion and anger (Matthew 21:12-13; Mark 11:15-18; John 2:13-22). Jesus’ emotion was described as “zeal” for God’s house (John 2:17). His anger was pure and completely justified because at its root was concern for God’s holiness and worship. Because these were at stake, Jesus took quick and decisive action. Another time Jesus showed anger was in the synagogue of Capernaum. When the Pharisees refused to answer Jesus’ questions, “He looked around at them in anger, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts” (Mark 3:5).

Many times, we think of anger as a selfish, destructive emotion that we should eradicate from our lives altogether. However, the fact that Jesus did sometimes become angry indicates that anger itself, as an emotion, is amoral. This is borne out elsewhere in the New Testament. Ephesians 4:26 instructs us “in your anger do not sin” and not to let the sun go down on our anger. The command is not to “avoid anger” (or suppress it or ignore it) but to deal with it properly, in a timely manner. We note the following facts about Jesus’ displays of anger:

1) His anger had the proper motivation. In other words, He was angry for the right reasons. Jesus’ anger did not arise from petty arguments or personal slights against Him. There was no selfishness involved.

2) His anger had the proper focus. He was not angry at God or at the “weaknesses” of others. His anger targeted sinful behavior and true injustice.

3) His anger had the proper supplement. Mark 3:5 says that His anger was attended by grief over the Pharisees’ lack of faith. Jesus’ anger stemmed from love for the Pharisees and concern for their spiritual condition. It had nothing to do with hatred or ill will.

4) His anger had the proper control. Jesus was never out of control, even in His wrath. The temple leaders did not like His cleansing of the temple (Luke 19:47), but He had done nothing sinful. He controlled His emotions; His emotions did not control Him.

5) His anger had the proper duration. He did not allow His anger to turn into bitterness; He did not hold grudges. He dealt with each situation properly, and He handled anger in good time.

6) His anger had the proper result. Jesus’ anger had the inevitable consequence of godly action. Jesus’ anger, as with all His emotions, was held in check by the Word of God; thus, Jesus’ response was always to accomplish God’s will.

When we get angry, too often we have improper control or an improper focus. We fail in one or more of the above points. This is the wrath of man, of which we are told “Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, for man’s anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires” (James 1:19-20). Jesus did not exhibit man’s anger, but the righteous indignation of God.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-angry.html

This post has been edited by desmond2020: Feb 18 2023, 02:01 PM