Ayam smells penguins reincarnated here.


This gonna be good.

This post has been edited by desmond2020: Feb 9 2023, 09:49 PM

No argument with that


But who ask?

I will just leave this here

“I want to thank my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ . . .”

If those are the first words out of an athlete’s mouth after a big win, we’re pretty sure we have an evangelical on our hands. As unnatural as those moments feel at times, many of us appreciate the heart behind it. Even if we cringe, we want to simultaneously celebrate that good instinct for a Christian to acknowledge Jesus not only as rescuer but also master.

“Lord and Savior” became a kind of evangelical calling card in the last generation, and for good reason. The phrase comes out of the 1980s battles on “lordship salvation” (even with its roots planted firmly in 2 Peter 1:11; 2:20; 3:2, 18). Could a truly born-again person receive Jesus as Savior, but not as Lord? Can you pray a prayer, walk an aisle, sign a card, and receive Jesus’s saving, but not his lordship?

The most compelling voices in the controversy stood with their feet steadied on the rock of God’s own words, and argued that to receive Jesus savingly is to receive him as all that he is — “Jesus is Lord.” You cannot reject his lordship and still have him as your get-out-of-hell-free Savior. No one knows all that his lordship means when we first believe, but as we learn more about the real Christ, we receive him as all that he is.

Is ‘Lord and Savior’ Enough?
I’m thankful for those who fought for Christ’s lordship a generation ago, and continue to proclaim it today. And in the days and context in which I pastor, I’m finding “Lord and Savior” to be both essential and inadequate. More needs to be said about who Jesus is for us.

When we stand over the Lord’s Table at our church each Sunday morning, and as we teach our children at home and in Sunday School, we don’t stop at identifying Jesus as “Lord and Savior.” We’re finding it’s all the more helpful to add a third title to this well-worn evangelical phrase — to help clarify what kind of Lord, and what kind of Savior, we embrace Jesus to be.

What Kind of Lord?
What kind of Lord is Jesus? The kind who not only deserves our obedience, but wins our admiration. He is the kind of King we not only acknowledge with our taxes and military service, but with our adoration and delight.

He is not a selfish lord, but a self-sacrificing lord. He’s not a mean lord, but a kind one. He is not the insecure, cowardly Prince John who opposed Robin Hood, but the winsome, magnanimous King Richard, a king for whose return his subjects longed. He is not a lord like Scar, but like Mufasa. Not Denethor, but Aragorn. Not the White Witch, but Aslan.

“He is not a selfish lord but a self-sacrificing lord.”
He is the kind of Lord who is also our greatest treasure — a lord so good that we would sell all that we have to be his glad servants giving ourselves to the treasure he is (Matthew 13:44). He is our Pearl of Greatest Price (Matthew 13:45–46). Not only have we seen that he is powerful, but we “have tasted that the Lord is good” (1 Peter 2:3). He is not a lord we disdain, but one we admire. He is a giving lord, not an exacting lord (Matthew 18:27). He is “the Lord Jesus Christ himself . . . who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace” (2 Thessalonians 2:16).

He is not just “Lord,” but also “Treasure.” He is the kind of lord in whom we delight.

What Kind of Savior?
And what kind of Savior is Jesus? The kind who not only deserves our gratitude, but wins our love. He is the kind of rescuer who plucks us from fire, and who is himself the waters of life.

He is not like a lifeguard who saves us from the undertow to hand us off to our family, but like our own father who rescues us from the riptide for himself to give us the longest, sweetest, and most memorable hug we ever had. His rescue is not like that of a paramedic, fireman, police officer, or soldier honorably “just doing my job,” but in his rescue he demonstrates his personal, covenantal, eternal love for us. Our salvation doesn’t show his commitment to his work as much as his commitment to his child.

He is not just “Savior,” but also “Treasure.” He is the kind of Savior who is also “a treasure in the heavens that does not fail” (Luke 12:33).

What Kind of Treasure?
And just as Jesus being our “Treasure” flavors what it means to receive him as Lord and Savior, so also his lordship and his deliverance inform and enrich the enjoyment of our Pearl of Great Price. What kind of treasure is he? Not a thing we buy and hide and rule over, but a person we gladly obey and to whom we happily give our allegiance. This is the kind of Lord-Treasure he is.

“Our salvation doesn’t show God’s commitment to his work as much as his commitment to his child.”
And Jesus not only stands above us and receives our worship, but he is the one who stooped so low for us and got beneath us to serve us. He is the kind of Treasure who did not regard equality with God to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking our form and being born in our likeness. And as human, he humbled himself to the point of death, even death on a cross (Philippians 2:6–8). This is the kind of Savior-Treasure he is. This is the kind of Savior for whom we would “count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord” (Philippians 3:8).

God has highly exalted him and given him the name above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (Philippians 2:9–11). He is the kind of Treasure who gladly saves us and whom we gladly call our Lord. Jesus is our “Lord, Savior, and Treasure.”

David Mathis (@davidcmathis) is executive editor for desiringGod.org and pastor at Cities Church. He is a husband, father of four, and author of Workers for Your Joy: The Call of Christ on Christian Leaders (2022).

This post has been edited by desmond2020: Feb 17 2023, 12:46 PM

The difference in calling Jesus ‘Lord’ and ‘Savior’
Implications for contemporary discipleship
By JEFF K. CLARKE and CHRISTIANWEEK ChristianWeek Columnist | March 12, 2017

When we replace the statement ‘Jesus is Lord’ (which happens to be one of the earliest Christian creeds) with the statement ‘Jesus is Savior’, it fundamentally changes the way we read, understand, and live out the gospel.

I’m not interested in removing the salvation element from faith, but I’m also not interested in narrowing the gospel to the point where we reduce it down to a system of salvation that decentralizes the controlling message of Jesus and the Kingdom of God.

The central and defining message of the Gospels generally, and of Jesus’ life and ministry specifically, is the Kingdom of God that he inaugurated. As a result, the call to follow after Jesus is one that includes forgiveness of sins, but also transcends it, to embrace a much larger scope of Kingdom activity.

The summons of Jesus’ call to ‘follow me’ and the emphasis laid out in the remainder of the New Testament is a call to answer to the declaration ‘Jesus is Lord'. To make Jesus ‘Lord’ is to repent of self-centredness and our ongoing attempts to ‘go it alone’. Repentance is about ‘turning around’ and the statement ‘Jesus is Lord’ captures the essence of that reorientation, providing its focus and Kingdom-centered direction.

Do we, therefore, remove the ‘Jesus is Savior’ element in Christian faith? Not at all. Instead, we reorient our focus by making Jesus’ Lordship (as King) the focus of attention by giving it the central significance it requires.

As Bruxy Cavey once said, “when we make Jesus Lord, we get Jesus as Savior thrown in.” That is, it becomes part of the total package. The order is important.

In short…

‘Jesus is Savior’ emphasizes sins forgiven. ‘Jesus is Lord’ emphasizes a reorientation in life, which includes sins forgiven. I’m no longer the king of my domain, Jesus is. This reorientation changes everything.
‘Jesus is Savior’ impacts me. ‘Jesus is Lord’ impacts me and everyone around me.
‘Jesus is Savior’ is often deeply personalistic and privatized. ‘Jesus is Lord’ retains the personal dynamic, but spreads out to impact everything and everyone around me. It is mission oriented (as sent ones) and seeks to reflect Jesus to others.
‘Jesus is Savior’ affects only the so-called spiritual aspects in life. ‘Jesus is Lord’ affects all of life; it is holistic and all-encompassing. It isn’t limited to Sunday, or a mid-week program, or more generally to the religious side of life. Instead, it lays at the center of life and thereby orients, shapes, and informs everything else.

My concern, and I’m not alone in this, is that many people have decided to make Jesus their personal Savior, but have yet to truly embrace him as Lord. The first asks people to seek forgiveness of sins, the second summons people to a lifetime of devoted discipleship to Jesus, while inviting others to follow along in the pursuit of the Kingdom.

The first centres on self, the second on Christ and his Kingdom. Any model that switches the order will short-circuit the controlling message of the gospel and effectively produce a mutated organism.

Discipleship is not optional and is not directed towards the few who choose to take Jesus seriously. With Christ, it was all or nothing or nothing at all. It was a summons with expectations.

‘Jesus is Lord’ demands our everything. ‘Jesus is Savior’ does not. The first focuses on a lifetime. The second on a one-time decision.

Unfortunately, the second does not always lead to the first. In fact, only about 50% of those who make decisions actually become disciples. Why? Because we center the call to follow on ‘Jesus is Savior’ and not ‘Jesus is Lord’. One demands nothing of us. The second demands our everything.

So you see there is a difference between calling Jesus Savior and making him Lord. And, the title we choose to prioritize deeply affects the way we view and experience the entire gospel.

Choose well.

someone talk about lordship salvation. let hear the view from other side

The doctrine of lordship salvation teaches that submitting to Christ as Lord goes hand-in-hand with trusting in Christ as Savior. Lordship salvation is the opposite of what is sometimes called easy-believism or the teaching that salvation comes through an acknowledgement of a certain set of facts.

John MacArthur, whose book The Gospel According to Jesus lays out the case for lordship salvation, summarizes the teaching this way: “The gospel call to faith presupposes that sinners must repent of their sin and yield to Christ’s authority.” In other words, a sinner who refuses to repent is not saved, for he cannot cling to his sin and the Savior at the same time. And a sinner who rejects Christ’s authority in his life does not have saving faith, for true faith encompasses a surrender to God. Thus, the gospel requires more than making an intellectual decision or mouthing a prayer; the gospel message is a call to discipleship. The sheep will follow their Shepherd in submissive obedience.

Advocates of lordship salvation point to Jesus’ repeated warnings to the religious hypocrites of His day as proof that simply agreeing to spiritual facts does not save a person. There must be a heart change. Jesus emphasized the high cost of discipleship: “Whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple” (Luke 14:27), and “Those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples” (verse 33). In the same passage, Jesus speaks of counting the cost; elsewhere, He stresses total commitment: “No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God” (Luke 9:62).

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus says that eternal life is a narrow path found by “only a few” (Matthew 7:14); in contrast, easy-believism seeks to broaden the path so that anyone who has a profession of faith can enter. Jesus says that “every good tree bears good fruit” (verse 17); in contrast, easy-believism says that a tree can still be good and bear nothing but bad fruit. Jesus says that many who say “Lord, Lord” will not enter the kingdom (verses 21–23); in contrast, easy-believism teaches that saying “Lord, Lord” is good enough.

Lordship salvation teaches that a true profession of faith will be backed up by evidence of faith. If a person is truly following the Lord, then he or she will obey the Lord’s instructions. A person who is living in willful, unrepentant sin has obviously not chosen to follow Christ, because Christ calls us out of sin and into righteousness. Indeed, the Bible clearly teaches that faith in Christ will result in a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 5:22–23; James 2:14–26).

Lordship salvation is not a salvation-by-works doctrine. Advocates of lordship salvation are careful to say that salvation is by grace alone, that believers are saved before their faith ever produces any good works, and that Christians can and do sin. However, true salvation will inevitably lead to a changed life. The saved will be dedicated to their Savior. A true Christian will not feel comfortable living in unconfessed, unforsaken sin.

Here are nine teachings that set lordship salvation apart from easy-believism:

1) Repentance is not a simple synonym for faith. Scripture teaches that sinners must exercise faith in conjunction with repentance (Acts 2:38; 17:30; 20:21; 2 Peter 3:9). Repentance is a change of mind from embrace of sin and rejection of Christ to a rejection of sin and an embrace of Christ (Acts 3:19; Luke 24:47), and even this is a gift of God (2 Timothy 2:25). Genuine repentance, which comes when a person submits to the lordship of Christ, cannot help but result in a change of behavior (Luke 3:8; Acts 26:18–20).

2) A Christian is a new creation and cannot just “stop believing” and lose salvation. Faith itself is a gift of God (Ephesians 2:1–5, 8), and real faith endures forever (Philippians 1:6). Salvation is all God’s work, not man’s. Those who believe in Christ as Lord are saved apart from any effort of their own (Titus 3:5).

3) The object of faith is Christ Himself, not a promise, a prayer, or a creed (John 3:16). Faith must involve a personal commitment to Christ (2 Corinthians 5:15). It is more than being convinced of the truth of the gospel; it is a forsaking of this world and a following of the Master. The Lord Jesus said, “My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me” (John 10:27).

4) True faith always produces a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17). The inner person is transformed by the Holy Spirit (Galatians 2:20), and the Christian has a new nature (Romans 6:6). Those with genuine faith—those who are submitted to the lordship of Christ—follow Jesus (John 10:27), love their brothers (1 John 3:14), obey God’s commandments (1 John 2:3; John 15:14), do the will of God (Matthew 12:50), abide in God’s Word (John 8:31), keep God’s Word (John 17:6), do good works (Ephesians 2:10), and continue in the faith (Colossians 1:21–23; Hebrews 3:14). Salvation is not adding Jesus to the pantheon of one’s idols; it is a wholesale destruction of the idols with Jesus reigning supreme.

5) God’s “divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life” (2 Peter 1:3; cf. Romans 8:32). Salvation, then, is not just a ticket to heaven. It is the means by which we are sanctified (practically) in this life and by which we grow in grace.

6) Scripture teaches that Jesus is Lord of all. Christ demands unconditional surrender to His will (Romans 6:17–18; 10:9–10). Those who live in rebellion to God’s will do not have eternal life, for “God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble” (James 4:6).

7) Those who truly believe in Christ will love Him (1 Peter 1:8–9; Romans 8:28–30; 1 Corinthians 16:22). And those we love we long to please (John 14:15, 23).

8) Scripture teaches that behavior is an important test of faith. Obedience is evidence that one’s faith is genuine (1 John 2:3). If a person remains unwilling to obey Christ, he provides evidence that his “faith” is in name only (1 John 2:4). A person may claim Jesus as Savior and pretend to obey for a while, but, if there is no heart change, his true nature will eventually manifest itself. This was the case for Judas Iscariot.

9) Genuine believers may stumble and fall, but they will persevere in the faith (1 Corinthians 1:8). This was the case for Simon Peter. A “believer” who completely turns away from the Lord, never to return, plainly shows that he was never born again to begin with (1 John 2:19). This was the case for Judas Iscariot (see John 6:70).

A person who has been delivered from sin by faith in Christ should not desire to remain in a life of sin (Romans 6:2). Of course, spiritual growth can occur quickly or slowly, depending on the person and his circumstances. And the changes may not be evident to everyone at first. Ultimately, God knows who are His sheep, and He will mature each of us according to His perfect time table.

Is it possible to be a Christian and live in lifelong carnality, enjoying the pleasures of sin, and never seeking to glorify the Lord who bought him? Can a sinner spurn the lordship of Christ yet lay claim to Him as Savior? Can someone pray a “sinner’s prayer” and go about his life as if nothing had happened and still call himself a “Christian”? Lordship salvation says “no.” Let us not give unrepentant sinners false hope; rather, let us declare the whole counsel of God: “You must be born again” (John 3:7).

someone said jesus was never angry. Oh well, many forget jesus is god, god of infinite justice. As bibles said, it is fearful thing to be at hand of god (Justice). If someone haven't forget that god is one, the OT have ample account of god being angry at sinners.

“For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” (Heb. 10:30-31)

When Jesus cleared the temple of the moneychangers and animal-sellers, He showed great emotion and anger (Matthew 21:12-13; Mark 11:15-18; John 2:13-22). Jesus’ emotion was described as “zeal” for God’s house (John 2:17). His anger was pure and completely justified because at its root was concern for God’s holiness and worship. Because these were at stake, Jesus took quick and decisive action. Another time Jesus showed anger was in the synagogue of Capernaum. When the Pharisees refused to answer Jesus’ questions, “He looked around at them in anger, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts” (Mark 3:5).

Many times, we think of anger as a selfish, destructive emotion that we should eradicate from our lives altogether. However, the fact that Jesus did sometimes become angry indicates that anger itself, as an emotion, is amoral. This is borne out elsewhere in the New Testament. Ephesians 4:26 instructs us “in your anger do not sin” and not to let the sun go down on our anger. The command is not to “avoid anger” (or suppress it or ignore it) but to deal with it properly, in a timely manner. We note the following facts about Jesus’ displays of anger:

1) His anger had the proper motivation. In other words, He was angry for the right reasons. Jesus’ anger did not arise from petty arguments or personal slights against Him. There was no selfishness involved.

2) His anger had the proper focus. He was not angry at God or at the “weaknesses” of others. His anger targeted sinful behavior and true injustice.

3) His anger had the proper supplement. Mark 3:5 says that His anger was attended by grief over the Pharisees’ lack of faith. Jesus’ anger stemmed from love for the Pharisees and concern for their spiritual condition. It had nothing to do with hatred or ill will.

4) His anger had the proper control. Jesus was never out of control, even in His wrath. The temple leaders did not like His cleansing of the temple (Luke 19:47), but He had done nothing sinful. He controlled His emotions; His emotions did not control Him.

5) His anger had the proper duration. He did not allow His anger to turn into bitterness; He did not hold grudges. He dealt with each situation properly, and He handled anger in good time.

6) His anger had the proper result. Jesus’ anger had the inevitable consequence of godly action. Jesus’ anger, as with all His emotions, was held in check by the Word of God; thus, Jesus’ response was always to accomplish God’s will.

When we get angry, too often we have improper control or an improper focus. We fail in one or more of the above points. This is the wrath of man, of which we are told “Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, for man’s anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires” (James 1:19-20). Jesus did not exhibit man’s anger, but the righteous indignation of God.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-angry.html

This post has been edited by desmond2020: Feb 18 2023, 02:01 PM

The theme of the wrath (or anger) of God toward sin and toward sinners is clearly and widely taught in the Bible. And this truth is so interwoven with the hope of our peace with one another and with God that, if we lose our grasp on the one, we lose our hope of the other.

The anger of God is not like human anger.
When we speak about the wrath of God, remember that it is the wrath of God. Everything that we know about Him—that He is just, that He is love, and that He is good—needs to be poured into our understanding of His wrath.

The words ‘anger’ and ‘wrath’ make us think about our own experience of these things. You may have suffered because of someone who is habitually angry. Human anger can often be unpredictable, petty, and disproportionate. These things are not true of the anger of God. God’s wrath is the just and measured response of His holiness towards evil.

Here are five ways God’s anger is different from ours.

1. God’s wrath is provoked.

Do not forget how you provoked the LORD your God to wrath in the wilderness (Deut. 9:7).

This kind of language is used repeatedly in the Bible. The anger of God is not something that resides in Him by nature. It is a response to evil. It is provoked.

There is a very important difference between God’s anger and his love. The Bible says, “God is love.” That is His nature. God’s love is not provoked. God does not love us because He sees some wisdom, beauty, or goodness in us. The reason that God loves us lies in His nature, not in ours.

But God’s wrath is different. It is His holy response to the intrusion of evil into His world. If there was no sin in the world, there would be no wrath in God.

It has often been pointed out that the opposite of love is not hate; it is indifference. What hope would we have in a world stalked by terror if God merely looked on with a weak smile or even a disapproving frown? Hope for a world whose history is strewn with violence lies in a God who is relentlessly opposed to all evil, and who has the power, the capacity, and the will to destroy it.

2. God is slow to anger.

The Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love (Ps. 103:8).

These qualities are repeated over and over in the Old Testament, as if they were the most important things you needed to know about God.

Why does God allow evil to continue in the world? Why does He not come back now and wipe it out? 2 Peter 3:9 reminds us that “the Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.”

God offers grace and forgiveness in Jesus Christ. People are coming to Him in faith and repentance every day, and God patiently holds the door of grace open. The day of God’s wrath will come, but He is not in a hurry to bring it—because then the door of grace will be closed.

3. God’s wrath is revealed now.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth (Rom. 1:18).

When you read on in Romans 1, you find that sinners go in one of three directions. They suppress the truth about God, they exchange the truth for a lie, and they worship created things rather than the Creator. How does God reveal His wrath when sinners do these things? God gives them up.

Therefore, God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity (Rom. 1:24).
For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions (Rom. 1:26).

When we see the moral fabric of our culture being torn, Christian believers should cry to God for mercy on the basis of Romans 1: “Lord, what we see around us is a sign of your wrath and judgment. Be merciful, O Lord, and please do not give us up completely.”

4. God’s wrath is stored up.

Because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed (Rom. 2:5).

The whole Bible story leads up to a day when God will deal with all evil finally and forever. On that day, God’s judgment will be fully revealed. This will be the day of wrath when God will recompense every evil.

God will do this in perfect justice. No one will be indicted on a single sin that they did not commit, and the punishment for every sin will match the crime. Every mouth will be stopped, because everyone will know that He judged in righteousness. Then God will usher in a new heaven and earth which will be the home of righteousness.

5. God’s wrath is on sinners.

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him (Jn. 3:36).

John does not say, “The wrath of God will come on the disobedient.” He says, “The wrath of God remains on him.” It is already there. Why? By nature we are children of wrath (Eph. 2:3). It is the state in which we were born.

Here we stand face to face with the human problem at its core. What is it? It is not that we are lost and need to find our way on a spiritual journey. It is not that we are wounded and need to be healed. The core of the human problem is that we are sinners under the judgment of God, and His divine wrath hangs over us, unless it is taken away.

God’s wrath was poured out.
This takes us to the heart of what happened at the cross. The divine wrath toward sin was poured out, or spent, on Jesus. He became the ‘propitiation’ for our sins (Rom. 3:25) as He became the sacrifice for us. This big word ‘propitiation’ means that the recompense or the payment for our sins was poured out on Jesus at Calvary.

The outpouring of God’s wrath on Jesus Christ was the greatest act of love this world has ever seen. And Jesus stands before us today, a living Savior. He offers to us the priceless gift of peace with God. He is ready to forgive your sins and to fill you with His Spirit. He is able to save you from the wrath and to reconcile you to the Father. He has opened the door of heaven, and He is able to bring you in. Are you ready to find peace with God through Him?





This article is an adaptation of Pastor Colin’s sermon, “Overcoming Evil with Peace”, from his series, Overcoming Evil.

that is the problem when someone think his kind of comprehension is THE pathway to heaven / salvation.

wow, a powerful testimony indeed.

sadly, this isn't considered politically correct there, even in some USA church. out of some weird reason, they think that homosexuals isn't a sin.

well, look like someone's English comprehension differ greatly from mine. When I read those proposed by lordship salvation camp, actually i didn't get any idea work is needed for salvation. It occur to me, it is more like a strawman argument of the said person, he put up a point, which isn't backed by original post, and attempt to show he can defeat it with grand slam. Although i don't agree fully with John Macarthur since his point since probably more on Calvinist side. but i concur the different is minor and doesn't affect the main doctrine of Christianity.

well let see what John MacArthur said about repentance, which is like the word 'work', another word some church now avoid like plague.

The meaning of the word repentance has been twisted in recent years to the point that its biblical meaning is now obscured in the minds of many. The idea that genuine repentance could result in anything but a change of life is completely foreign to Scripture.

What does the Bible teach about the relationship between salvation and repentance? First, it teaches that repentance is essential to salvation. One cannot truly believe unless he repents, and one cannot truly repent unless he believes. Repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin (but they are not synonymous terms). Acts 11:18 and 2 Peter 3:9 are two of the many verses that teach that repentance is necessary for salvation. Perhaps 2 Timothy 2:25 best sums up the relationship between repentance and saving faith when it speaks of "repentance to the acknowledging of the truth" (see also Acts 20:21).

Second, the Greek word for repentance (metanoia) means "to have another mind," but it cannot properly be defined to exclude a sense of hatred of and penitence for sin. The biblical concept of repentance involves far more than merely a casual change of thinking. Biblically, a person who repents does not continue willfully in sin. Repentance is a turning from sin, and it always results in changed behavior (Luke 3:8). While sorrow from sin is not equivalent to repentance, it is certainly an element of scriptural repentance (2 Corinthians 7:10).

Finally, despite what is being widely taught today, affirming that repentance and acknowledgement of Jesus' lordship are necessary to salvation does not "add" anything to the requirement of faith for salvation. It is not "faith plus repentance" that saves, but rather a repentant faith. The notion that salvation is possible apart from a genuine, heartfelt repentance, which includes a deep hatred of sin, is a relatively new one, neither believed nor taught by the people of God until the twentieth century.

You know, it is quite puzzling when NIV replace the word 'work' with 'deeds'.

Faith and Deeds
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

compare that with ESV

Faith Without Works Is Dead
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good[b] is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

And ASV

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you say unto them, Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; and yet ye give them not the things needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself. 18 [h]Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by my works will show thee my faith. 19 Thou believest that [i]God is one; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 [j]Thou seest that faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect; 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, [k]And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness; [l]and he was called the friend of God. 24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. 25 And in like manner was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works, in that she received the messengers, and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead.

lol, now the good thief? I assume it is directed at catholic? since catholic themselves didn't say you can achieve salvation by work, i just put what they said below (disclaimer here: i actually think that catholic and traditional protestant is closer in their doctrine if compared with some 'new' church today):-

“Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”

With these words, St. Dismas (one of the two thieves crucified with Jesus) was saved by Our Lord who promised: “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise” (Luke 23:42-43).

Unfortunately, some Christians cite this beautiful story as evidence against the Catholic theology of salvation, claiming that salvation is by faith alone and anything in addition is contrary to the gospel. (This is the Reformation doctrine of sola fide). After all, they point out, the thief on the cross was never baptized, never received the Eucharist, never did any good works—yet he was saved!


But there are several problems with proof-texting St. Dismas in this manner.

First, a rather large assumption is being made concerning the thief’s sacramental record. How do we know he wasn’t baptized? The Bible doesn’t say he was—but it doesn’t say he wasn’t. We certainly would not want to argue a positive case from silence, but neither should those who assume the thief was not baptized (the Bible doesn’t report the apostles’ baptisms either!).

It is also noteworthy that the good thief seems to have been catechized to some level. He knew Jesus had done nothing wrong, that Jesus was Lord, and that Jesus was going to his kingdom after he died (something Jesus made clear only to his disciples—see Matthew 13:10-11). It is possible, then, that the thief on the cross was a fallen-away disciple (cf. Matt. 27:44) who repented on the cross. If so, it’s likely that he would have been baptized.

The second and much bigger problem is that even if the good thief had never been baptized, the analogy between his life and most other people’s is insufficient to support sola fide. One issue is that the thief lived and died under the Old Covenant. The sacraments, such as Christian baptism and the Eucharist, are part of the New Covenant, which was not fully in place until Jesus died (Heb. 9:15-18, Acts 19:1-6).

Another problem with the analogy is that the good thief’s situation was unlike virtually any person’s in history. What God does for someone in an extremely unusual context should not reassure anyone outside those same conditions. Further, treating this “edge case” as a general principle actually proves too much. Would any Christian agree that the gospel can be boiled down to asking to be remembered in Jesus’ kingdom? Moreover, if the good thief is a standard-setting example, why not others? Jesus forgave the sins of many people in a wide variety of circumstances that few consider normative today. In Mark 2:5, for instance, Jesus forgives a man based on his friends’ faith! What does that do for “salvation by faith alone”?

A third reason why this story doesn’t support sola fide is that the good thief on the cross actually seems to have exhibited all the faith and works that he could, given his situation. The fact that his physical limitations made it impossible for him to do anything more than speak was certainly not lost on God! Amidst all the assumptions made about this short story, one that seems safe is that had any sacrament been made available to the good thief for salvation, he would have received it. This hardly supports the theology behind sola fide, which eschews the need for good works under any circumstances.

In conclusion, it is important to understand that the Church makes many normative statements that are easily criticized when made into absolutes, and the sacraments fall prey to these illicit attacks all the time. The Church actually teaches that although we are bound to God’s sacraments, God is not. The Church baptizes because that is how God revealed that New Covenant believers enter into salvation (e.g., Mark 16:16; John 3:5; Acts 2:38, 22:16; 1 Pet. 3:21)—but this does not mean God cannot save without baptism (see CCC 1257-1258). The same might be said of the Eucharist (cf. John 6:53-54). God looks on the heart, not just the body—and a person who unwillingly cannot participate in the sacraments is not judged for that.

There are unusual and extreme situations when normative salvific requirements cannot be met, and yet salvation remains possible. God knows this, and the Church teaches it. But unusual circumstances do not disprove normative expectations. By his grace, God can save through (genuine) faith alone, of course, but it is a mistake to make an exceptional act into a theological rule—especially one that directly contradicts Scripture.

eh, now you don't like NIV? how sad

21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

Actually, catholic didn't say they are saved by their work. it is fitting to look into their view

Are Catholics Saved by Good Works?
Oct 24
Written By Laila

As a Protestant, I believed that there was nothing I could do to earn my salvation. I trusted that Jesus had done it all- All that I had to do was simply believe. I looked down at Catholics because I thought that they believed they had to earn their salvation. “Catholics think they can get into Heaven just by doing good works”. I missed the mark- big time.

First, I misunderstood how important faith is to Catholics. I believed that Catholics didn’t have personal relationships with God. I truly thought they just believed they could get into Heaven by doing good works.

Secondly, I misunderstood the importance of good works in my own salvation. Never once does the Bible say we’re saved by “faith alone”. Even the verses that are often misconstrued to teach faith alone, don’t mention it. (Romans 3:28, Galatians 2:16, Ephesians 2:8–9). However, the Bible DOES say in James 2:24, “ You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” (ESV, emphasis added).

Once saved always saved
As a Protestant who was brought up with some Calvinistic beliefs, I held to the doctrine commonly referred to as, “once saved, always saved.” which comes from Romans 5:1, “ Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (ESV).

I was under the impression that the justification of the believer was a one time completed action which happens when you say that little prayer “inviting Jesus into your heart”. Similarly, with regard to salvation, I grew up with the belief that there is nothing that can separate a true believer from Christ- not even sin. I was once saved, always saved because I thought I was fully justified ever since I was 5 years old when I accepted Jesus into my heart.

Because righteousness is a synonym for justification, I looked at what Paul wrote about Abraham in Galatians 3:6, “So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness”(ESV). (The Greek word used here which is translated as “righteousness” is dikaiosunes, which can be translated either as “righteousness” or as “justification"1)

As a Protestant I thought, “it doesn’t get any clearer than that! Abraham was justified once and for all at the moment that he believed.” Not only is this proof of faith alone, but it’s evidence that justification is a completed transaction at the moment the believer comes to Christ.1

Cooperation with God’s Grace
The Catholic Church actually agrees with some of that, on a couple points.

“First, as baptized Catholics, we can agree that we have been justified and we have been saved. Thus, in one sense, our justification and salvation is in the past as a completed action. The initial grace of justification and salvation we receive in baptism is a done deal.”1

However, Catholics believe there is more to the story. “Scripture reveals that it is precisely through this justification and salvation the new Christian experiences in baptism that he enters into a process of justification and salvation requiring his free cooperation with God’s grace.”1

See, where I was wrong in my old belief was that I thought that my justification and salvation was a one time deal, it happened ONE time and it was over.

I did not realize that we are called to grow in righteousness/justification- remember, righteousness is a synonym for justification - and we do that by good works.

“Good works are a part of the Christian life. We grow in our righteousness, or in our justification, over the course of the Christian life by doing good works in cooperation with God’s grace.” 2. As Paul writes in Ephesians 2:10, we are created in Christ FOR good works.

Where Protestants Can Miss The Mark
“The major part of the puzzle here that our Protestant friends are missing is that there are many biblical texts revealing both justification and salvation to have a future and contingent sense as well as a past sense. In other words, justification and salvation also have a sense in which they are not complete in the lives of believers.”1

Where does this come from? Here’s some verses to dive into:

Romans 6:16 : Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? (ESV)

Matthew 10:22 : And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be. (ESV)

Romans 13:11 : ... for salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. (ESV)

1 Corinthians 5:5 : You are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. (ESV)

Romans 2:13-16 : For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. (ESV)

Another point we can agree with our Protestant friends on is that Abraham was justified through the gift of faith he received from God. The Catholic Church acknowledges what the text clearly says: “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” (Romans 4:3, ESV).

However, there is more to this text as well. While the Catholic Church agrees that Abraham was justified by faith in Genesis 15:6 as Paul said in Romans 4:3, the Church also notes that Abraham was justified at other times in his life as well. This indicates justification has an on-going aspect to it, not just a “one and done” moment in time.1

Abraham is also revealed to have already been justified at other times as well:

James 2:21- “Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?” (ESV)

Hebrews 11:8, “By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.” (ESV)

So what do Catholics believe about good works?
“When you talk about how we can’t merit salvation, or we can’t do anything to merit salvation. The Catholic Church agrees with that if you’re talking about the initial grace of salvation that comes to us. We can’t do anything to merit that initial gift of faith or that initial gift of salvation. That’s why Ephesians 2:8-9 says "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.” but then he goes on to say in verse 10, “For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” 3 So what he’s saying here is that before our conversion (before we put Christ as the Lord and Savior of our life), there is nothing we can do. However, once we enter into Christ, then we must begin to work. 3

Why must we begin to work?
Good works are important to Catholics because we will be rewarded for them. “We don’t do good works to get into a state of justification; good works flow from the state of justification, and ultimately rewards us for having done those in the next life” 4 .

One of the rewards of our good works is eternal life! Romans 2:6-7, “God “will repay each person according to what they have done. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.” (NIV).
“Eternal life is one of the rewards for the good works done, not before Christ, not a part from Christ, but IN Christ” 5
Our Protestant brothers and sisters believe that good works simply PROVE your justification. But we as Catholics believe that “while that initial grace of salvation and justification can’t be merited in any sense. Once we enter in, we must continue to be justified, or as the council of Trent taught, “to increase our state of justice.” St. Thomas Acquinas said, “you’re either growing in justice or you’re dead.” 5

Why Faith Alone Isn’t Enough
Yes, faith is important, it’s VITAL. But we can’t just pick and choose the Bible verses that we like in order to form our own theological views, we have to view Scripture in its entirety, even if we don’t like what it says. As St. Augustine said, “If you believe what you like in the Gospel, and reject what you don't like, it is not the Gospel you believe, but yourself.”

The Catholic Church does not divide these various elements of salvation up, overemphasizing some while ignoring others; rather, she holds them all in their fullness"6

To help illustrate that “believing” is not enough, here is a list of 5 Scripture passes that show where the Catholic Church gets this teaching from7:

James 2:24 (ESV), “You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone”

Romans 2:6-7 (ESV), “He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life”

Matthew 12:36-37 (ESV) “I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Matthew 25:31-46 is the scene of the final judgment where Jesus separates the sheeps from the goats. The only difference between the sheep and the goats is what they did and didn’t do. They all called Jesus Lord, but Jesus separates them and sends them either to Heaven or Hell based on what they did and didn’t do.

Galatians 6:6-9 (ESV), “Let the one who is taught the word share all good things with the one who teaches. Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.”

Good Works In Depth
Now, let’s discuss the two types of “good works” in order to clear up any kind of confusion.

There are good works that are done by human nature.

We believe that these are meaningless. See, prior to the point of justification, it is impossible for us to perform works by God’s grace because God’s grace isn’t acting in our souls yet. Tim Staples says, “ it is impossible for us to do supernaturally good works prior to the point in our lives where we convert and we’re justified.”4

There is nothing that we can do prior to justification that will EARN the grace of justification.

Then there are good works that are done by God’s grace.

These are the works that do matter as St. Paul says we are created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10).

These are what we perform out of cooperation with God’s grace. “Cooperating with the grace of God to allow God to flourish in us. It is not enough to passively allow grace to declare us justified, we must actively take up the task of growing in righteousness and we accomplish this by participating and growing in the theological virtues of faith, hope and love”8

By cooperating with God’s grace, we increase our state of justice, or justification, before him. And if we are faithful until death, we will receive eternal life. As Revelation 2:10 says, “Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life” (ESV).

So to summarize, here is the order of operations:

We come to God, we believe, we repent, we get baptized- that’s the point at which in the ordinary course of affairs, he justifies us and gives us grace. Then over the course of the Christian life, we grow in his grace. "And because we have his grace working in our souls now, it’s now possible for us to do supernaturally good works.”2

So essentially, there are good works that mean NOTHING- they don’t count for anything because they are done before we have received God’s grace of justification. But then there are works that DO have meaning because they are done after we have received God’s grace.

To Wrap It All Up
"When Catholics read of Abraham “justified by faith” in Romans 5, we believe it. But we don’t end there. For when Catholics read of Abraham “justified by works” in James 2 we believe that as well.

For 2,000 years the Catholic Church has taken all of Sacred Scripture into the core of her theology harmonizing all of the biblical texts. Thus, we can agree with our Protestant friends and say as Christians we have been (past tense) justified and saved through our faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross."

But we also agree with our Lord that there is another sense in which we are being saved and justified by cooperation with God’s grace in our lives, and we hope to finally be saved and justified by our Lord on the last day: I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned (Matt. 12:36-37).1

This post has been edited by desmond2020: Feb 20 2023, 02:42 PM

well, that is what catholic is and they did refer to a verse

"But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." (Matthew 12:36-37)

if someone haven't forgotten, his post is actually mostly based on single verse quoted from bible. Out of context, well, that is just somebody's personal opinion.

that is what i would like to caution here, bible as you read is just a translation. to emphasis a single word and blow a whole theology out of it is dangerous. As someone said, context is important. Right?

I would caution that we limit the applicability of certain verse. As it is to be like what those joker in the west do

Let see what you have there. unlimited atonement, irresistible grace, unconditional election and most notably eternal security.

correct? that look similar with what our friend, Joseph Prince down at the south enjoy preaching. Personally I have no much problem with Joseph as he didn't diehard pushing for donation like another brother down there. speaking of which, did that brother out of jail dy? anyway, i get that you want to tell audience in church things they like to hear but there is nothing you can pleased harden people. You see, some church in the attempt to please general population had gone to declare homosexual is not a sin and went through mental gymnastic to say that only the act of homosexuality out of lust is a sin.

that is just sad

This post has been edited by desmond2020: Feb 22 2023, 11:09 AM

most notably

And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules” (Ezekiel 36:22-27)

Hebrews 8:10 ESV
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.


The New Covenant Jeremiah 31:31-34
31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”


2 Corinthians 3:3
3 And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.[a]

Psalm 51:10 ESV
Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me.

Hebrews 10:16 ESV
“This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,”

wow wow wow

I am gonna post a article by catholic again, to demonstrate that even catholic is closer to truth then you are

Where Is “Eternal Security” in the Bible? Hint: Nowhere
LEILA MILLER • 5/19/2017


A little over twenty years ago, as a young wife and mother, I was ready to leave the Catholic Church and become a “Bible Christian.” Like most Generation-X American Catholics, I was poorly catechized and had no real foundation for understanding the Faith. My best friend—a former radical feminist—recently had a conversion to Christ and began attending an evangelical Bible church down the road, and I was days away from joining her.

I was all but gone when the Holy Spirit intervened through my mother. Mom told me to “find out what you’re leaving before you leave it” and handed me a book of apologetics (something I never knew existed). It was Karl Keating’s Catholicism and Fundamentalism. I was blown away by the logic and truth I found in those pages, and I quickly made a return to the Catholic faith.

However, my friend was still firmly convinced of Protestant theology, and we began discussions that were essentially a two-person mini-rehash of the Reformation. Much of the fundamentalist doctrine she embraced made no logical sense to me—including the concept of “once saved, always saved,” also known as eternal security.


In short, eternal security is the idea that once a person has “accepted Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior,” that’s it. Salvation is a done deal—the soul is heaven-bound, with no turning back, no matter how badly he may sin. Even a free-will decision to reject Christ after being “saved” is apparently not allowed by God.

I knew by then that salvation is not a numbers game or a formula of “speak these words one time and you will go straight to heaven and those who don’t will go to hell.” No, salvation is not a hoop to jump through; rather it’s a personal love relationship with Christ, the Beloved. Not only does “once saved, always saved” undermine the nature of love itself—which must be freely given and freely received or else we are slaves—it also contradicts Scripture.

To prove it to myself at the time, I took down my bright red New American Bible, took a pink highlighter in hand, and started reading through the New Testament epistles, underlining everything that contradicted eternal security.

And boy, there was a lot.

Below are just a few of the lines I highlighted back then. The pink ink is faded and bleeding a bit now, but the words underneath still powerfully point to the truth that the gift of our salvation may, because of our God-given free will and dignity, be continued or refused.

St. Paul said to the believing Christians (the “saved”) of his time:

Romans 11:22: “Consider the kindness and severity of God—severity toward those who fell, and kindness toward you, provided you remain in his kindness; if you do not, you too will be cut off.”

Galatians 6:9: “Let us not grow weary of doing good; if we do not relax our efforts, in due time we shall reap our harvest.”

Philippians 2:12: “So then, my dearly beloved, obedient as always to my urging, work with anxious concern to achieve your salvation.”

1 Timothy 1:19: “Some men, by rejecting the guidance of conscience, have made shipwreck of their faith.”

1 Timothy 4:16: “Watch yourself and watch your teaching. Persevere at both tasks. By doing so you will bring to salvation yourself and all who hear you.”

Similarly, the author of Hebrews is clearly not working in a “once saved, always saved” paradigm when he speaks to believing Christians:

Hebrews 4:1: “Therefore, while the promise of entrance into his rest still holds, we ought to be fearful of disobeying lest any one of you be judged to have lost his chance of entering.”

Hebrews 4:11: “Let us strive to enter into that rest, so that no one may fall.”

St. Peter describes the miserable lot of those who know Christ as Savior but later fall away:

2 Peter 2:20: “When men have fled a polluted world by recognizing the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and then are caught up and overcome in pollution once more, their last condition is worse than their first.”

There are several more highlights in my tattered old NAB, so many that at a certain point I stopped highlighting, but you get the idea: The concept of “eternal security” was not a Christian doctrine back then, nor is it now. The idea that we can never lose our salvation after “accepting Jesus Christ” came as a novel and dangerous falsehood during the Protestant heresies of the sixteenth century, a millennia and a half after Christ founded his Church.

My friend who attended the “Bible church” was eventually able to see the truth of Catholicism and converted, as did her Protestant husband and her parents. They, and all of us, hold joyfully to the great hope of our own salvation, while never forgetting the need to persevere in our love of Christ, heeding the words of St. Paul:

“So then, my dearly beloved, obedient as always to my urging, work with anxious concern to achieve your salvation” (Phil. 2:12).

that is strange, someone with all those single bible verse sermon saying context is important. which is much in irony.

and later Paul write in next chapter:-

12 Not that I have already [g]grasped it all or have already become perfect, but I press on if I may also take hold of that [h]for which I was even taken hold of by Christ Jesus. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not regard myself as having taken hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Therefore, all who are [i]mature, let’s have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that to you as well; 16 however, let’s keep [j]living by that same standard to which we have attained.

17 Brothers and sisters, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us. 18 For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even as I weep, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ, 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their [k]appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who have their minds on earthly things. 20 For our [l]citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21 who will transform the body of our lowly condition into conformity with [m]His glorious body, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

Well, you all can read what it means

This post has been edited by desmond2020: Feb 28 2023, 01:44 PM