"Today, it is not uncommon to hear the doctrine of ‘Once Saved Always Saved‘ proclaimed in many sermons and books. It is through sermons and books that many ‘Christians’ today believe the doctrine. Most people that simply read the Bible, come to different conclusions.

This popular nickname ‘Once Saved Always Saved’ has its systematic reformed origins in the Calvinist doctrine of the ‘Perseverance of the Saints’. This doctrine was devoutly affirmed by 2nd generation reformers and is most associated with 1st generation reformer, John Calvin.

Calvin was an excellent Theologian and his reforms centralised around Geneva. His influence on the reformation was considerable but the main core reformed doctrine was Lutheran. Luther attempted to reform the Church by getting back to Scripture. His conviction was the ‘the Gospel cannot be denied for the word of man’.

Unfortunately, by today’s standards, it is very difficult for any Christian to merely believe what the Bible says. I say this because the Church of today has been corrupted by argumentation and interpretation. So it is, in these times that my personal attempts to proclaim truth and find truth of Scripture and believe it, is very difficult. So often those who merely believe what the Bible says are the ones labelled the total opposite.

However, we are not here to please men. Men may interpret the Bible, but they are not above it. So it is that I come to my point. The popular doctrine of ‘Once Saved Always Saved’ has a major historic anomaly attached to it. Thorough research reveals that the doctrine was not taught in mainstream Christianity until the time of John Calvin or later in the 17th century at the Synod of Dort (1618). Some claim that Augustine of Hippo taught it? others that the doctrine is Gnostic.

Difficult as it may seem to grasp, it appears that the doctrine of ‘Once Saved Always Saved’ has its early origins in Gnosticism and not Christianity. We know this because Irenaeus refuted an early form of it in Against Heresies. Book 1. Chapter 6. The connection to Calvin being that Augustine was influenced by Gnosticism because of his prior belief in Manichaeism and Calvin relied upon Augustine as an authority on Scripture and quoted him more than any other theologian. However, there is reasonable doubt whether or not Augustine ever taught ‘Once Saved Always Saved’?

But outside of these references, the doctrine is not to be found.

This presents a major problem; unconditional eternal security was not taught by the ancient Christian Church, and is, in fact alien to historic Christianity before the 16th century.

This presents a major problem for those who claim their beliefs are absolutely Scriptural. It asks an unanswered question; If ‘Once Saved Always Saved’ is absolutely Scriptural, as some preachers claim, how could a doctrine of such massive importance lay untaught within Christianity for almost 1500 years? If the doctrine was so clearly taught in Scripture, as many moderns claim, then why didn’t the early Church teach it?

Why did the doctrine only come to light in the 16th century?"

-Faith by fire from reddit

This post has been edited by desmond2020: Aug 13 2024, 08:39 PM

Self-explanatory answer
1 John 1:8-10,"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

1 John 2:1-2,"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

Unlike the Catholics who have believe in constant forgiveness of sins and some Protestants (obviously due to the where they originated from), the Bible has made it very clear...

and there are many many more verses on this..

and as for the Reddit
Not a single Bible verse to substantiate it.. pick your poison.. opinions or direct verses from the Bible

so are you still sinning?

I still sin.. but I try to sin less..
I am still guilty of sin

Romans 7:18-19,"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do"

Galations 5:17," For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."

This post has been edited by zanness: Aug 13 2024, 09:39 PM

The Fallacy of Predestination - The Oops of Calvinism


The premise of predestination says that before you are out of your mother’s womb you are either eternally saved or you are eternally lost. Your life, decisions and self determination has nothing to do with it. It’s great if you are, and simply unfortunate if you aren’t.


If predestination is true, then the concept of choice is a cruel deception.


If predestination is true then the thought of being a free moral agent is only a pretense, and reaching out to fallen man is simply an exercise in religious recital.


If predestination is true, then why preach the gospel to anyone? We are only stirring up false hope. Why the masquerade unless it is just some misdirected sadistic tease to those who really can’t have it anyway?


Under the doctrine of predestination, the preaching of the gospel is cruel for it dangles a mirage of the river of life in front of those who are dying of thirst but can never partake of its stream.


John Calvin was wrong in his belief about this doctrine. He did many things right, but he was off track here. I have great respect about his beliefs that salvation was gained through faith alone and that he regarded the bible as the only source of religious truth. John Calvin had a logical, razor-sharp mind. His ideas had a profound effect on the direction of the Reformation.


Calvin was born in France and trained as a priest and lawyer. In 1536, Calvin published the Institutes of the Christian Religion. This book told of his religious beliefs. But somewhere during this time he began to entertain the thought of predestination, the idea that God had long ago determined who would gain salvation and who wouldn’t.


To Calvinists, the world was divided into two kinds of people, saints and sinners. A Calvinist tries to live like a saint, believing that only those who were saved could live true Christian lives. The performance of living a Christian life and keeping all of the rules flies in the face of his belief that salvation was gained through faith and grace alone. It is a sharp contradiction and a slippery slope. Galatians talks about that conflict. But that is another story.


There are only two significant passages that address this subject of predestination and that is Romans 8:29-30 and Ephesians 1:3-14. Both of them are taken out of context by the Calvinist doctrine.


Romans 8

29 “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed into the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he also called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified”. Ephesians 1 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.


7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace

8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,

9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.


13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

These scriptures specifically refer to a people group, not to individual people. What we see here is that God determined that he was going to have a people for himself, a Body. It is preplanned and predestined to happen. But it is misguided to take from these passages to suggest that he had selected “individuals to be saved” and “individuals to be lost”. If predestination is true, then the term, “whosoever” from John 3:16 is a lie.


God determined beforehand that those who believe in Christ will be adopted into his family and conformed to his Son. I believe in predestination as a people group. We are all called, but not as an individual. Individual predestination is misguided. We must individually hear the gospel and believe its message. We must appreciate the true condition of the fallen state of man and the plan of redemption that God provided for us if we will receive His precious gift. While it is true that man cannot come to God except he be drawn, that man still has to exercise his own independent choice to receive God’s invitation.


This brings us to the big question. Does God know all things? Does he know that I am going to be saved or lost at the end of my days? It reminds me of the trick question kids asked in school about God. “Is God so great that he can create a rock that he can’t lift?” We smile at that but it is true that many people want to know what God knows. Does he know before I am born that I will accept him or reject him and thereby seal my eternal destination? And if he does know, doesn’t he share a little of the responsibility for it?


There are two schools of thought. The first is that God gave mankind the power to pro-create after his kind, which is based on the choice and stewardship of the creature and not God. And that God knew in advance, even though he is not responsible for the birth which direction the child would choose. But even in this case, the child is not predestined in either direction.


The second is based on the thought that Jesus knew what was in the heart of all men and thereby knows in advance whether a man will be saved or lost. It is true that He knows if there is or evil in my heart because he can search the heart. But independent choices don’t fall in that context. God will speak to us and has a plan for us. But the level of our creation puts us in an exclusive position. We are made in His image and His likeness. We are created in the God-Class; Psalms 8:5 (NKJV) “For You have made him a little lower than the angels, And You have crowned him with glory and honor.” This translation should be “God” and not “Angels”. The angels were not crowned with glory and honor and God did not put all things under their feet. This is speaking of us. We are created in the image of God. We are the Body of Christ.


This puts us in the unique position of making a choice or decision that is creative and unplanned. Something out of the scope of God’s determined will. We can make choices that are in His will and out of His will. 2 Peter 3:9 (KJV) said, “It’s not His will that any should parish but that all come to repentance,” but we know that they do parish.


So God doesn’t necessarily know across the board what man will do. He calls the human race to himself, and sends us as believers into the streets to compel the lost to come in. He stands at the door of every heart and knocks. If any man will open, he will come in and make his abode and sup with him. But we, being created in His image, hold the unique position of independent choice.





-Dr. Jerry Edmon

This is called discussion..
And to begin with, I'm in no way affiliated to Calvinism.. in case you want to start googling for ways of error..

This is a long text, of which are mixed with opinions and verses, some of which I agree , some of which i do not.
For example,
If predestination is true then the thought of being a free moral agent is only a pretense...etc..
- It is not true. Bible clearly mentioned we are saved to GOOD WORKS.. there is a mission and purpose
- It is also not true that it is simply a exercise in a religious recital as the Bible clearly mentions, as Christians, we need to do God's will..
The pretext that Romans 8:29 is for SELECTED group of people,
- is unfounded.. The Bible did not state it so.. in fact it was clear in Romans who it was written for.

That said, predestined is always complex because it is something we do not understand fully but can only imagine..
The second school of thought is interesting and I partially agree, Jesus knew what is in the heart of men..
Now here's where it gets interesting...
The few rule of thumb is that we know the
1. BIBLE does not contradict itself.
2. Everything in the BIBLE is true..

- Now we say John 3:16, "WHOMSOEVER"
- Multiple places in the Bible clearly refers to 'everyone who hath an ear, let him hear' and salvation is freely given to anyone who would believe in it..
- However, again, rule no.1 , the BIBLE does not contradict itself.

And due to that, in conclusion, the most likely outcome given the rules is that both predestined and free will co-exist.

Let's take the rich man and Lazarus for context.
I believe the rich man was predestined to go to hell and Lazarus (Abraham's Bosom).
But then again, it was the rich man's free will to live the way he wanted to, and Lazarus' to live faithful and God-fearing..
Disclaimer, this is not written in the Bible but is deduced based on the Bible verses

This post has been edited by zanness: Aug 13 2024, 10:09 PM