Consider H2O - in the form of air, liquid, and solid.

I am curious to know how is it that knowledge can be deceitful ?

ROMANS.5: (NKJV) = Death in Adam, Life in Christ

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
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For salvation from hell, we need the righteousness and righteous act of Jesus Christ on the Cross to atone for our unintentionally inherited Adam's Original Sin. Our own righteousness and righteous acts of the Law, eg did not commit murder, adultery, stealing, blasphemy, etc, could never save us from hell because we have an evil or devilish heart that occasionally sin-in-thoughts involuntarily or unintentionally, eg immoral sexual lust, hate, anger, greed, selfishness, jealousy, etc, in our hearts = we do not qualify for the kingdom of heaven on our own = we are bound for hell if without the righteousness and righteous act of Jesus Christ on the Cross.

But salvation from hell at the point of conversion by faith is not the 'be all and end all'. Once born-again of the Holy Spirit of God, we need to cooperate with God's Spirit to allow Him to implant His laws in our hearts and minds, especially for most new Gentile Christians who were lawless Gentiles previously. For Jewish Christians like the apostles, God's Spirit had no problem implanting His laws in their hearts and minds because most of them were law-abiding Jews previously. In this way, God's Holy Spirit who indwell us could empower us to keep the Law or do righteous acts(= our righteousness) easily = through a change of our hearts by the Spirit.
....... This is vital for believers because sinning/breaking the Law willfully or intentionally(= their unrighteousness) for whatever reasons, eg ignorance, belief in false teachings, etc, will bring on the earthly curses of God or His agents upon them (1COR.5:5 & 11:30, 1JOHN.5:16-17, HEB.10:26-31) since such intentional sins /law-breaking cannot be forgiven or atoned, as per LEVITICUS - murderers may be executed, rapists and robbers will be jailed, etc. If while suffering for their sins/unrighteousness, they somehow lose faith in God/Jesus-Christ = will lose salvation, eg JOB.2:9, 1TIM.4:1.

Good day.
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Knowledge does not exist in void - it exists in a person's mind, with its intention, needs, and wants.

Too much knowledge, when one thinks he/she knows it all, but they forgot the more you know, the less you know.

Let say you know everything about Christianity, but you lose touch with humanity, friendship, kindness, patience, and openness - through constant argument on 'I must be correct'

It's interesting discussion.
And can proves things which a christian follower won't admit.

JOHN.6: (NKJV) = 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

Seems, the Holy Spirit of God was already working upon the apostles to make them clean or keep the Law. Conversely, dirty mean break the Law or sin willfully or intentionally or unrighteousness or lawlessness.
....... JOHN.6:63 & 15:3 might have been different from the indwelling Holy Spirit of God for born-again believers from the Pentecost of ACTS.2 onward.

Good day.

Pardon me but i think some of your statements contradict some verses/commandments/teachings of jesus.

Looking back at commandment no.4, clearly some followers breaking the commandment, and sadly now followed by many.

How do u pray to god?is it same as how jesus pray?do u know whom jesus pray to according to the bible?

Who is the god of the dead?

This is where God has given me this ministry to explain to you, where many have missed it.

If you say that at the point of conversion is not the be all and end all, then you also just agreed the works of the Law is required for Salvation (along the way), ie in other words... That what Jesus Christ did at the cross was insufficient. (not enough)

To me that is not correct. What Christ did at the cross is a FINISHED Work of God, meaning there is no more that needs to be done to save. You know right, Christ cried FINISHED at the cross?

1st of all, I perfectrly understand what you mean on character sanctification, it is not something new to me. As born believer you need to Live Right, that is what you're saying isn't it? I'm not against that. I'm very much in support of this.

I do not use the phrase law keeping because by THAT definition alone, It is not just the matter of keeping the law but you also END UP believing that as long as you keep the law you will be saved. That... as you know contradicts Salvation is by Faith in Christ.

Understand that in order for the Holy Spirit to change us, the foundation MUST be correct. At the point of conversion, it is a done deal, Christ have saved you.

If you don't even believe that, then you'll end up trying to keep the Law, Do you see this problem?*

If you don't even believe Christ has cleansed you, then you'll end up trying to purify yourself as what you've just said.*

The biggest problem for many is this* and here also is where I believe many are confuse.

Do you understand what I've just type?


* If you want to ask me...how come if Christ said we have been clean but we are still not acting righteous in our daily live..I'll be happy to exlain to you why.

But if you want to to continue scripture slinging, I will not give up either. So what is your call?

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Apr 4 2020, 12:41 AM

Wrong.

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HEB.5: (NKJV) = Spiritual Immaturity

12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
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1PETER.2: = Our Inheritance Through Christ’s Blood

2 Therefore, laying aside all malice, all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and all evil speaking, 2 as newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby, 3 if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
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1COR.3: = Sectarianism Is Carnal

3 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? 4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?
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HEB.6: = The Peril of Not Progressing

6 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

The Word of God or Bible states that at the point of conversion by faith in Jesus Christ, some newly born-again believers are carnal babes-in-Christ (= still walking more in the flesh than in the Spirit) who need to grow spiritually by feeding on the Law/Word of God of righteousness and there is the peril of them not progressing or growing spiritually into an adult-in-Christ who feeds on solid food of the Word of God = the bread of life.

So, salvation from hell at the point of conversion by faith in Jesus Christ is not the 'be all and end all' for some folks, especially new Gentile Christians who were mostly lawless or carnal Gentiles previously.
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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Apr 4 2020, 01:16 AM

I understand when you say it is VERY NOT easy to be a christian.

Over the years I learnt that the christian life is not for US to live but to allow Christ to live through us.

what do I mean?

when we accept Jesus, we are to make Him Lord of our life.

like this



but most of us live like this




and we feel that life is like this




the key is learning to surrender daily and allow God to take control of every area. Then the gifts and energy already available in us manifests itself because we allow Christ to take control.

Isaiah says

He gives power to the weak, And to those who have no might He increases strength. Even the youths shall faint and be weary, And the young men shall utterly fall, But those who wait on the Lord Shall renew their strength; They shall mount up with wings like eagles, They shall run and not be weary, They shall walk and not faint.
Isaiah 40:29‭-‬31 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/isa.40.29-31.NKJV

BINGO !!! 👍👍👍

It is never right for any Christian to say anything one is unsure of, let alone unknowingly contradict Sacred Scriptures especially the words of our Lord Jesus Christ. Otherwise its the mill stone and the abyss.

This post has been edited by Roman Catholic: Apr 4 2020, 09:40 AM

I think both of you are looking at the same coin but from different sides.

Yes, the work of Christ on the cross is complete, and it is once and for all.

for simplicity i will just quote from Hebrews


For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
Hebrews 9:24‭-‬26 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/heb.9.24-26.NKJV

Christ sacrifice of Himself is complete.
Yet earlier, the author said

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
Hebrews 6:4‭-‬6 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/heb.6.4-6.NKJV


I always believed that nothing snatch us away from the hand of God, but God will not stop us from walking out of His hand on our own free will.

UW is right that the work of Christ is finished
Lurking is also right that we continue to grow after coming to know Christ.
Both are just two sides of the same coin.
A seed sown cannot remain a seed forever.
it has to grow and bear other seed, which is the whole point of farming.

did i miss something earlier?

It would be most unwise to under estimate the Devil. Just as the Devil ingeniously tests our Lord Jesus Christ throughout Scriptures many times in disguise, like wise shall it be for us.

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It's not hard if new Gentile Christians who were mostly lawless and carnal Gentiles previously, know where to start growing spiritually and gradually from babes-in-Christ to adults-in-Christ by feeding on the Law/Word of God.

They need to start by feeding on the Word of God at ACTS.15:19-29 & 21:20-25 and ROMANS.14:1-5, ie begin their born-again of the Holy Spirit life by keeping 4 easy and non-burdensome laws of God = avoid eating blood, idol-sacrificed foods, strangled animal sacrifice and sexual immorality = so as to do well on earth(not for salvation from hell). To do even better on earth = be blessed by God with earthly rewards and goodness, they should gradually learn to keep the other non-burdensome laws of God, eg the Ten Commandments at EXO.20, DEUT.18:9-14, LEV.10:9, etc.
....... Otherwise they may kena the opposite - do bad or worse on earth - since willful or intentional sins/law-breaking for whatever reasons, eg ignorance, laziness, belief in false teachings, easy believism/OSAS, etc, cannot be forgiven as per the book of LEVITICUS = such unrepentant sinners/law-breakers will kena the earthly curses of God or His agents, eg murderers may be executed, robbers and rapists will be jailed, incestors will be destroyed by Satan, etc - 1COR.5:5 & 11:30, 1JOHN.5:16-17, ROMANS.2:5-13.

There are exceptions to every rule/law. Some new Gentile Christians might have done some serious physical or spiritual damage to themselves previously when they were lawless or carnal Gentiles, eg alcoholics, chain-smokers, drug-addicts, sleeping pills-addict, (= broke God's Law at LEV.10:9) dabblers in the occult(= broke God's Law at DEUT.18:9-14), etc.
....... Eg alcoholics have brain damage like Type-2 diabetics have pancreas damage. Alcoholics are addicted to alcohol to survive like diabetics are addicted to insulin to survive. So, it is OK for alcoholic new Gentile Christian to remain alcoholic because it would be too burdensome for them to keep LEV.10:9 and stop taking alcohol = terrible withdrawal symptoms called Delirium Tremens. Such alcoholic Gentile Christian may not live well and long on earth but they will still be saved from hell by their faith in Jesus Christ. IOW, in this case, eternal life by faith in Jesus Christ trumps a well and long life on earth by keeping God's Law. Of course, miraculous healing of alcoholic new Gentile Christians can also happen, which would be even better for them.

Certain religions prohibit the drinking of alcohol, coffee or tea. If followed from young, this law/prohibition is good.

Jesus Christ said His yoke is easy and His burden light. Problem is, a few self-righteous Christians blindly want to put heavy yokes and burdens on new Gentile Christians, eg the Judaizers of GAL.2:9-17 led by James the Just, the bishop of Jerusalem, who wanted new Gentile Christians converted by apostle Paul, to keep all of Moses Law or God's Law, ie must be circumcised, eat kosher foods, keep Sabbath on Saturday, not keep company with unbelievers, tithe 10%, etc.

Good day.
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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Apr 4 2020, 11:25 AM

Like I said, I perfectly understand what you're saying here, it is nothing new to me. But the foundation of what we tell new converts MUST be right. What I mean is this:
For a babe to grow in Christ, the person MUST see that at the point of conversion He or She is saved and has been cleansed by the Lord. That means there is nothing more to do in order to be saved. <---VERY IMPORTANT KEY.

Do you understand this?

If at the point of conversion, the believer still need to struggle to keep the LAW IN ORDER to be saved, then the core of Gospel is lost. What I mean is, Christ died for NOTHING and in Vain.

Galatians 2:21 (KJV) - I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”

If you're asking if at the point of conversion is really be all and end all, then how will new convert grow? Because they're still carnal as you say. THAT is where the problem lies. You convinced them by "metanoia" they still carnal, still worldly WHEN you should tell them scripture Truth.

2 Corinthians 5:17 (NIV) - Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

Isaiah 43:18 (NIV) - "Do not call to mind the former things; pay no attention to things of old.

Ezekiel 36:26 (NIV) - I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

Hebrews 8:13 (NIV) - By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Hebrews 10:10 (NIV) - And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


You don't tell a new convert, you are still dirty and you need to purify yourself by works of the Law, while growing up..... that is like saying Jesus have never cleansed the person's sin. you need to enforce all the scripture verses (example) I gave above. They need to repent in their mind for example...They have been made HOLY according to Hebrews 10:10 by Jesus sacrifice and they are no more dirty or carnal (2 Corinthians 5:17).

If you tell them they are still worldly or carnal and need to grow up by "struggling" I can guarentee you...such will struggle but it will end up dead works because the power of what Christ did was NEVER given to them.


FYI all those scripture verses you provide above ARE IRRELEVANT




I can point couple of examples where you're just throwing scripture for the sake of throwing without understanding the meaning.

Hebrew 5:12 is specifically point to people who thinks righteousness is gain from obeying God's Law. Keyword here is = Unskilled in the word of righteousness. Under the New Covenant, we are made righteous by our Faith.

Acts 13:39 (NIV) - Through Him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the Law of Moses

Romans 3:20 (NIV) - Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the Law. For the Law merely brings awareness of sin.

Romans 3:28 (NLT) - So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.


1PETER 2 <-- Growing up in Salvation has very much to do with knowing what you have been given in Christ. Ie

1 Peter 1:3-4 (NIV) - Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you,

Once you accept this, you will grow. We live right because we know God has saved us. It has to do with right foundation. Once you know you are cleaned then changed your mind thinking (repentance) you're dirty and start acting clean. This is the principle.


As for 1COR 3 has to do with following people rather than following Christ. If one can see it in todays application, it has to do with following denominations. NOT Relevant.

I would agree with you Hebrews 6 talks about maturing, but again as I've said, the foundation must be right, you must be secure in Christ in order to move forward. That is what it means not laying againt the foundation of repentance from dead works. To understand what is the context of dead works, you need to refer to (always let Bible inteprete Bible)

Hebrews 9:14 (KJV) - How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

What this means is that if you keep repeating you need to repent from dead works instead of receiving that blood of Christ that purge our conscious once and for all, you will never grow.

Refer to my post 996, I think he's still missing the point.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Apr 4 2020, 10:50 AM

Sounds like you believe in an inconsistent God who has both your imaginary dispensations. Bet you got your explanation just now. But unsupported by scriptures.

Luke 16:16 KJV The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

16 YLT the law and the prophets [are] till John; since then the reign of God is proclaimed good news, and every one doth press into it;

Do you know why were/are is in italics?

The Law was till John? So John ended the dispensation of the Law and Grace started?
What happened to the dispensation of the prophets?

What happened to all those between Sinai and John? Like Rahab,Gideon, Barak also, and Samson, and Jephthah, David also, and Samuel, and the prophets,?

Were they justified by the Law?

This post has been edited by prophetjul: Apr 4 2020, 10:47 AM

What happened to all those between Sinai and John? Like Rahab,Gideon, Barak also, and Samson, and Jephthah, David also, and Samuel, and the prophets,?

Were they justified by the Law?

No Jesus ended the dispensation for the believer. Not John. However the Law still stand against unbelievers/sinner.

Yes They are under the dispensation of the Law.