😂

thanks PK

one can argue all one wants and still be considered misguided.

aral is sincere in trying to point it out to us

however, whether he is right or wrong remains to be seen

I think aral has to honestly look at both christianity and islam and decide for himself which faith's followers are bringing peace to the world today.

every faith has it's fanatics but for one in particular, it seems to be the norm rather than the exception.

actions do speak louder than words, right?

no offense meant

it is not that he doesn't understand.
he has been taught christians are misguided.

and because he has faith in his scripture, he believes.

it is the same with us right?

so what makes the difference?

isn't it our living relationship with Christ?

we not only believe but we experience it for ourselves.

peace the world cannot give
joy unspeakable
love beyond mere feelings
and so much more only christians understand.

it is their perogrative.

i suggest we do not mention it by name lest we be accused of anything.

have any of you read their scripture?

i have done about a third of it.

it is to understand their frame of mind.

only then we can give them answers that will challenge them to thinknfor themselves

This post has been edited by popcorneater: Mar 23 2020, 12:02 PM

agreed bro.

this virus is just another sign that we are already in the end times.

its actually to be able to answer them when they come to places like this

This is why when i taught my youths in bible class, i always challenged them to know what they actually believe in and not swallow everything the teacher says wholesale.

aral is here asking questions and we perceive him as challenging our beliefs.

we should be able to provide clear answers and when we cannot we must not be ashamed to say so.

this is also why we should learn to understand where his thinking is coming from and by doing so, aral can decide for himself which source is actually correct.

we can discuss all things in a mutually respectful manner.
that too is fellowship.

for reference I have put all of aral's post i can find in this thread in the spoiler.

it is clear aral is questioning from the viewpoint of a moslem.

and moslems believe that Jesus is merely a prophet and not the Son of God and also they do not believe in the Trinity.

As christians, do we have an answer for him?

i know we all have tried in one way or another, will someone summarize the christian perspective in a single post?

basically he is challenging the fact that Jesus is divine and stating that christians believe in 3 gods

from my limited knowledge i will say the following

Jesus Christ is the Son of God as shown in the New Testament.

John 3:16-17

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
John 3:16‭-‬17 NKJV

Jesus knew many doubted Him and at one point He told them

Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.
John 14:9‭-‬11 NKJV

aral questioned how could a god die

the answer is in Hebrews

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
Hebrews 2:9 NKJV

to fulfill the requirement of payment for sin, which God already warned about since the beginning in Genesis.

And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
Genesis 2:16‭-‬17 NKJV

and Romans

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23 NKJV

aral is arguing from a purely human understanding because how can three be one? how can god have a son? and how can a divine being be killed?

but is not the very basis of faith believing in the supernatural?

if we can believe God can create the heavens and earth, man out of dust, how much more difficult would it be for God to create an ovum, in the womb of a virgin and infuse His very being within it?

if God is omnipresence why would it be illogical for Jesus to pray to the Father for the benefit of those around Him?
for example

Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead man was lying. And Jesus lifted up His eyes and said, “Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. And I know that You always hear Me, but because of the people who are standing by I said this, that they may believe that You sent Me.”
John 11:41‭-‬42 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/jhn.11.41-42.NKJV

aral is basing his questions on writings produced about 600 years after the time of Christ and they were not new questions.

so many during those times did believe in a form of christianity but denied the divinity of Jesus.

as christians, we are not surprised because this has been the tactic of the devil since the beginning.

we see it in the temptation of Jesus

And the devil said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, command this stone to become bread.” But Jesus answered him, saying, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.’ ” Then the devil, taking Him up on a high mountain, showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said to Him, “All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. Therefore, if You will worship before me, all will be Yours.” And Jesus answered and said to him, “Get behind Me, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’ ” Then he brought Him to Jerusalem, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down from here. For it is written: ‘He shall give His angels charge over you, To keep you,’ and, ‘In their hands they shall bear you up, Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’ ” And Jesus answered and said to him, “It has been said, ‘You shall not tempt the Lord your God.’ ”
Luke 4:3‭-‬12 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/luk.4.3-12.NKJV

instead of trying to argue over words, aral should look at the overall context of what the bible actually says.

i think i have mentioned before that the bible is coherent and consistent. you find overarching connections between the old and new testaments. God is shown to be consistent in His righteousness, mercy and love.

He does not say one thing in one place then another thing elsewhere.

even from Genesis itself, the solution to sin was already presented.

And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel.”
Genesis 3:15 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/gen.3.15.NKJV

on the cross of Calvary, Jesus crushed the devil by dying for all mankind, making payment for sin in full.

the only requirement God has is for us to believe in Jesus, the Son He sent to us, and surrendering our lives in obedience to Him, much like returning to the original conditions in Genesis, when God instructed Adam to obey Him in not touching the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

of course he is trying to persuade us here.

i respect his method and i too would use the same when trying to persuade them.

yet i do know that my words will have zero effect on him unless the Holy Spirit does something in his heart and he looks for answers for himself. our words are but seeds sown, who knows what kind of soil it falls on.

aral if you are reading this, i pray you find truth for yourself, do a genuine comparison between our scriptures, you will find many parts are taken from ours but with a twist added.

ask yourself, how a book complied from writings of more than 40 over authors over a period of more than a thousand years can be more consistent and coherent than one written by a single person over less than 30 - 50 years?

for a superficial comparison i will direct your attention to a non religious website rational wiki.

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also ask yourself, when you have doubts, are you able to freely question?

we can and we do.

and more often than not, we actually find an answer after much seeking, prayer and consultation with those more knowledgeable than us. the answers may not be 100% satisfactory but it moves us on to the next stage of our faith.

keep seeking, friend.

This post has been edited by popcorneater: Mar 28 2020, 11:10 AM

I understand when you say it is VERY NOT easy to be a christian.

Over the years I learnt that the christian life is not for US to live but to allow Christ to live through us.

what do I mean?

when we accept Jesus, we are to make Him Lord of our life.

like this



but most of us live like this




and we feel that life is like this




the key is learning to surrender daily and allow God to take control of every area. Then the gifts and energy already available in us manifests itself because we allow Christ to take control.

Isaiah says

He gives power to the weak, And to those who have no might He increases strength. Even the youths shall faint and be weary, And the young men shall utterly fall, But those who wait on the Lord Shall renew their strength; They shall mount up with wings like eagles, They shall run and not be weary, They shall walk and not faint.
Isaiah 40:29‭-‬31 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/isa.40.29-31.NKJV

I think both of you are looking at the same coin but from different sides.

Yes, the work of Christ on the cross is complete, and it is once and for all.

for simplicity i will just quote from Hebrews


For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
Hebrews 9:24‭-‬26 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/heb.9.24-26.NKJV

Christ sacrifice of Himself is complete.
Yet earlier, the author said

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
Hebrews 6:4‭-‬6 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/heb.6.4-6.NKJV


I always believed that nothing snatch us away from the hand of God, but God will not stop us from walking out of His hand on our own free will.

UW is right that the work of Christ is finished
Lurking is also right that we continue to grow after coming to know Christ.
Both are just two sides of the same coin.
A seed sown cannot remain a seed forever.
it has to grow and bear other seed, which is the whole point of farming.

did i miss something earlier?

brother, while i agree we should never underestimate the devil we have to remember.

For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 8:38‭-‬39 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/rom.8.38-39.NKJV

if we ever fall away, it is because of this.

But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
James 1:14 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/jas.1.14.NKJV

friend,

i appreciate your posts here because it really challenges our faith and the ability to think and defend our faith to unbelievers.

sometimes, because we ourselves understand our scripture from a wholistic point of view, i.e. we kinda of know where relate to what but we cannot quite recall the scripture reference, we take our understanding for granted

as far as your postings here are concerned, i can divide them them into the following.

a) God cannot be three in one.

Why not?
Let me use a natural example.
Please explain to me the nature of light.

impossible right? because we still do not know everything about it. how can it be wave yet particle yet radiation?
what exactly is it's color? how can there be light we cannot see but we can feel?

If we cannot fully comprehend what we can already physically detect, how then can we expect to fully understand the nature of God whom we cannot even physically detect with our instruments?

or is the god you believe in simplistic enough to be comprehended by your human mind?

b) Jesus cannot be divine

the entire focus of the Christian faith is centred on the love that God has for us, to the point He was willing to manifest Himself in a human body to pay the price for the sin of all mankind.

this is a necessary action on the part of God, because the entirety of mankind has been contaminated and no way we can pray our way to forgiveness on our own.

scripture is full of references to the divine position of Christ.

to pass such a judgment on something we do not understand is foolishness.

c) Bible is not consistent therefore not reliable.

in terms of consistency please refer to post no 782.

judge for your self which set of scripture is more consistent.

yet, why do you believe in your set of scripture?

can you justify that?

Brethren,

We ALL benefit when we take to look in the mirror before opening our mouths.

Jesus warned us very clearly of this in Matt 7
“ Do not judge and criticize and condemn [others unfairly with an attitude of self-righteous superiority as though assuming the office of a judge], so that you will not be judged [unfairly]. For just as you [hypocritically] judge others [when you are sinful and unrepentant], so will you be judged; and in accordance with your standard of measure [used to pass out judgment], judgment will be measured to you. Why do you look at the [insignificant] speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice and acknowledge the [egregious] log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me get the speck out of your eye,’ when there is a log in your own eye? You hypocrite (play-actor, pretender), first get the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.
Matthew 7:1‭-‬5 AMP
https://bible.com/bible/1588/mat.7.1-5.AMP


Perhaps it is good for every one to take a step backwards, reassess the situation, and forgive each other?

You already know the answer.

From the very beginning when man sinned, God already put salvation in place for mankind.

And I will put enmity (open hostility) Between you and the woman, And between your seed (offspring) and her Seed; He shall [fatally] bruise your head, And you shall [only] bruise His heel.”
Genesis 3:15 AMP
https://bible.com/bible/1588/gen.3.15.AMP

with the introduction of sin into the world, disease and death came in with it, which is why we have so much suffering around us.

For God to be God He must be omniscient,
knowing the possible outcome of every free willed decision of every human being ever born and to be born in the future.

Because God is a God who gave us free will, He has to allow us to exercise that will. He however may choose to interfere with the outcome of our actions if it suits His purposes. For example Jonah. But note, at the end of the day, Jonah went to fulfill his task as instructed on his own free will.

Because God is a good God, He wants to save as many as possible, not by coercion, but by demonstrating His love through His Son, and at this time, His followers.

And because God is a good God, He wants to achieve that with the MINIMUM amount of suffering mankind has to go through.

We may not be able to see it, but God is ACTIVELY manuvering the entirety of mankind to His desired destiny for them through the free willed obedience of His people where possible, through supernatural means where necessary. Only God knows how many major disasters He has already prevented, and will continue to avert in future.

And all this without violating our human free will.

Not only that, God deals with every human being on a personal basis.

We see good people suffer and evil people prosper, but we only see that tiny portion within the time frame that we are able to see them, but we are unable to know how God is working in that life in the parts we cannot see to try bring them to salvation.

Romans 8:28 gives us the assurance that it is for good at the end of the day

And we know [with great confidence] that God [who is deeply concerned about us] causes all things to work together [as a plan] for good for those who love God, to those who are called according to His plan and purpose.
Romans 8:28 AMP
https://bible.com/bible/1588/rom.8.28.AMP

Yes, it's alot to take in by faith.

We may not understand why God allow certain things to happen because we can only see as far as our lifetime.
God on the other hand sees to the end of time itself and the ultimate consequence of every action by every human.

We can afford to trust Him because He is good, even if it should cost us our lives.