Not god. But God is Law. You are so right. Holiness and law go hand in hand as law reflects His righteous and Holy character.

I think the main problem with the Lutheran reformist theology is LAW VS GRACE. And that's nonsense.

This post has been edited by prophetjul: Mar 30 2020, 02:59 PM

True, i am also amazed that there is doubt on divinity of jesus

As bible put

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light. The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John bore witness about him, and cried out, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.'") For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.
John 1:1‭-‬18 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/jhn.1.1-18.ESV

Actually even before the Law was given to Moses, There was already a distance. Death was already proclaimed at the foot of the mountain.

Romans 7:8 (NIV) - But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead.

1 Corinthians 15:56 (NIV) - The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the Law. (the word power here is dunamis...which means give strenght) so to say Law merely define sin is not correct.


As I've said, how God deal with his people..when the Israelites journey before Mount Sinai (This is how God deals with his own people) And After Jesus Christ has come.

Galatians 3:23-25 (NIV) - 23 Before the coming of this faith, j we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

As Christians, we are no longer under the Law.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Mar 30 2020, 03:26 PM

Now you have changed your stance.

Law was no longer the guardian because the Law personified had come in the person of Yeshua.

17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

The personified truth encompasses the Torah. He has come to magnify what Torah is.

Erm No I didn't change my stance. Read Post #785. <--you repeated what I said there.

What I disgaree with you is that, after the law was given, when Christ has come, we are ushered into the dispensation of Grace again as how Grace was demonstarted by God to the Israelites before mount Sinai, What I'm trying to say is...there's no judgement for the believer, there is correction, disipline and things like disapointment. But to say there is judgement that God gives deseases or car accidents to the believers is something I see contradicting the new covenant.

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Those 3 verses I gave is explain that, The Laws of God triggers sin which is correct. It does not just define.

No I disgaree, what you say above would mean the Law is still a guardian at the end of the day. I believe if the Bible says we are no longer under law, then we are no longer under law.
I believe Christ came to magnify Grace & truth, revealing the Heart of God which was what He did anyway during His earthly ministry. You won't find anywhere in the Bible Jesus meting judgement under Grace. The Blind see, the lame walk, the prostituttes forgiven.

The Law was given by Moses to make Man give up. There's a distinction in purpose why the Law was given.

I did asked you before, when you sinned and fallen short, do you appeal to God's Grace or do you appeal to God's Law to be redeemed? If indeed Christ came to magnify the Torah, ie the Laws of God, you and I would be finished before the day is over.

Sorry but the scripture is very strong on the Gospel magnifying God's Grace and not the Law.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Mar 30 2020, 08:52 PM

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On earth, everyone is equal before the Law of God, Jews, Christians and Gentiles alike, eg "you reap what you sow" or "karma is a beeetch" or padan muka - DEUT.28, PROV.1, ROMANS.2:1-13, 1COR.5:5 & 11:30, 1JOHN.5:16-17. So, in general, those who keep God's Law, as appropriate(= ACTS.15:19-29 & 21:20-25, ROMANS.14:1-5), will be blessed by God with a good and long life on earth. After death on earth, inheriting eternal life in heaven is not based on the keeping of the Law.
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Can you please elaborate on the above, "to make Man give up." .?

Give up what.? ... Give up on keeping the Law = Christians are no longer under the Law = can even practice lawlessness(= commit willful sins repeatedly) and still be saved from hell.? Give up on his own strength/efforts to keep the Law and instead rely on the power of God/Spirit/Jesus(= the Word/Law).? Give up on the works of the Law as the way to salvation from hell and instead rely on faith in Jesus Christ or the grace/free-gift of God as the only way to salvation.?

Good day.
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It is easy to say believe in Jesus Christ as free gift/grace... way to Salvation but in reality there are Christians who believe more in upholding the law* as an "assurance". keyword is on assuarance.

And I dare say .....that focus* is more than.... to believe in Faith on Jesus Christ.

I felt this in the spirit, this is one of the problems holding back some Christians in this forum.

It's the hard truth.

If anyone is sincere and dare to stake being truthful, one will admit nobody can actually keep the law. I dare to say, before the day is over, we have broken many of God's law.
The law of God was never design to impart life, neither righteousnes nor holiness but to make man come to the end of himself..give up trying.

The focus has to be on God, his mercy, his grace, compassion, love, etc. To believe that Jesus Christ took our sins and have saved us. We need to hold fast on THAT and THAT only as the assuarance.

Romans 6:14 (KJV) - For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

GRACE is the answer, NOT the law. The way out of sin, not to allow sin to have dominion is put yourself under God's Grace = Jesus Christ.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Mar 30 2020, 11:51 PM

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Well, the Bible says, even a young Jew could keep the Law of God or Moses Law. .......

MATT.19: = Jesus Counsels the Rich Young Ruler

16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”

17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?”

21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

You stated that nobody can actually keep the Law. Are you saying that Christians do not actually keep God's Law(= sin willfully or intentionally or voluntarily) and are worse than the Jews in keeping God's Law.? Something is off with your statements. Maybe you meant Christians cannot avoid involuntarily sinning-in-thoughts - the result of Man inheriting Adam's Original Sin - MATT.5:27-30.

IMO, Jews were/are compelled by external powers to keep the Law, eg fear of the police during MCO; whereas Christians are empowered from within by the Holy Spirit of God to keep God's Law/Word - HEB.8:10 & 10:15.
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Good day.
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I'm very curious to know what is his definition of 'dispensation of grace' as well . God is very consistent from cover to cover. From the Old testament to the New testament, God is unchanging. Those who butcher the Bible & split it up into dispensations or what-not, are bound to run into trouble sooner or later, with their interpretation of the Bible.

Jesus will be very upset to read what you just wrote. The Christian's job, after coming to saving Grace, if anything, is to uphold the Law even more!

The very complete opposite of what you're espousing.

I'll just give you the benefit of the doubt, that you're confused about Mosaic Laws, Ceremonial Laws & the Moral Laws (10 comm) & have lumped them all together.


Referring to your green section:

That's like a straw man argument, no? I mean you suggested it. Nobody brought those things up. David Wilkerson & his wife died in a car crash. We live in a fallen world. So your point?

Anyway i digress, coming back to the Law section.

I'll give you my angle, to see if it makes sense to you:

1) God commanded Moses to go up the mountain alone. Why?
2) So that Almighty God could lay out the 10 commandments onto stone tablets, no less inscribed by the finger of God Himself. What for?
3) He expected Moses to do what exactly, with the tablets? Grind them into powder & let the Israelites drink them?

Why would God bother to give the Israelites something that they would be unable to follow? Is God stupid? Because you seem to be implying that God is cunning.

Grace & Law go hand in hand. Break the Law, no Grace for you. Whether before the Cross, or after the Cross. Very, very simple.

Do you get it now?

Referring to the green section:

Again, you're making assumptions. It's only your 'reality'. Not others. It's your hard truth. Not others. Instead, why can't you assume that a Christian can also uphold the Law & Love the Lord simultaneously?

In fact, the Bible says, “If you love Me, keep My commandments” - John 14:15

That means, if you don't uphold the Law, you don't really love God. See James 2:14. FAITH must be followed by ACTION. It is not just merely an intellectual ascent of who Christ is.

You quoted Romans, so here's another verse from Romans:

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." - Romans 2:13

I can honestly tell you, if you're not living upright in the sight of God, you have absolutely NO RIGHT whatsoever, to feel any assurance of salvation. That's but a false assurance.

e.g. a Christian who steals once in a blue moon & thinks he's still saved.
e.g. a Christian who sleeps with his gf occasionally & thinks he's always saved.
e.g. a Christian who compulsively lies, but think he's heaven-bound.

So the above 3 examples feel the 'assurance', or should they naturally feel fear & uncertainty? Where do their confidence lie?

It's nonsense, to suggest that the assurance that a Christian gets from upholding the law is 'holding back' Christians in this forum .

On the contrary, it's actually more liberating.

Just from what you wrote, you're encouraging the opposite behavior. I observe that you have an axe to grind, with those who place emphasis on obedience.

"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 5:19

"If one turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer is an abomination." - Proverbs 28:9

"Oh, how I love Your law! It is my meditation all the day." - Psalm 119:97 Even David said this !



I notice you always love to quote,

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." - Matthew 5:17

In your mind, what does fulfill actually mean? Do you understand what this verse actually mean? You really need to explain this. He didn't come to abolish the Law you know.




What irks me is that, you say we can't obey the Law, no matter how hard we try, so might as well don't bother even trying.





I say a Christian must DO, & yet you say DON't bother trying, because we'll fail. You're propagating a Christianity that is absolutely powerless!

So, are you a Lawless Christian?

It's interesting to note, the rich young ruler asked What must he do? He wanted works.

Jesus should have said, believe on Him to have eternal life (John 3:16) but why did Jesus gave him the law?

Well as Ive said before, to bring that young rich ruler to the end of himself. And that was what happened.

The design of the law is for that. He who has ears let him hear.

Wow, just wow. You even wanted Jesus to rephrase His words. Speechless.

"Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions."

Compare that to the following:

"As He was going along by the Sea of Galilee, He saw Simon and Andrew, the brother of Simon, casting a net in the sea; for they were fishermen. And Jesus said to them, “Follow Me, and I will make you become fishers of men.” Immediately they left their nets and followed Him."

This post has been edited by yeeck: Mar 31 2020, 12:26 PM

What are you even talking about? So irrelevant.

Correct. Completely powerless to think he/she can save himself.

The one saves you is Jesus Christ. Not you.

Always remember this.

Only Christ could fufill the Law, that is why He came to fufill it. If Anyone else could, Jesus did not need to come. <---THINK CAREFULLY.

Why?

Because only Christ is the perfect Man who is without sin.

And why did he enforce this law? It is EXACTLY for people who still think they could.

To bring them to the end of themselves. It is for unbelievers, not believers.

Remember the verse when Faith come, we are no longer this guardian. That is in scripture.


The New Covenant commandments is all about Love and obedianace to the Faith.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Mar 31 2020, 12:40 PM

I dont know if you guys realised, but you are going down the same path for the n-th time.

Because the same errors are being brought up time and again. "There is nothing new under the sun".

My opinion is, both camps (faith and law/obedience) are talking about the same thing.

To obey the law (do not steal, do not kill) without faith in Jesus and His gospel cannot save.

At the same time, to say that you have faith in Jesus, but do not love your neighbour, etc is also dead faith.

In history, the church has had problems balancing the 2 elements. They either fall into anti-nomianism or legalism.

The reformers talked about the order of salvation (Ordo salutis) which can be demonstrated from scriptures.

Regeneration by God -> genuine faith -> sanctification by God -> good works/obedience.

If you mess up the order, or you diminish any element, you fall into either extreme.

Well to say Christianity "involved" being saved by works, makes it no diffrent from all other religion.

Christianity does not stand apart then.

Galatians 3

Faith or Works of the Law

1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? a 4 Have you experienced b so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” c

7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” d 9So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” e 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.” f 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.” g 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.” h 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

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What verse 10 is saying if want to "Involve" the works of the law, it's either you go all the way with the law or you don't. You don't get both works and Grace. (Romans 11:6)
Why do you want to put yourself under a curse?

And I've repeated so many times. Fruits of the Spirit is NOT something you conjure up by your own effort or will.


It is called Fruits of the Spirit for a reason. The Holy Spirit * (Galatians 3:5)