But no one is claiming that. Righteousness and justification is related. Your position will make James contradict Paul. Grace is indeed given by God, totally unmerited by us, yet we must still cooperate.

Neither "faith alone" nor "grace alone" nor "works alone" are correct when it’s used to say that you don’t need to in any way to cooperate with God’s grace, that a merely intellectual faith would save you, nor accepting the initial grace given but not persevering, nor relying on works alone without faith. All three by themselves without the others are false.

"Faith alone" - dead
"Grace alone" - without cooperating on our part make us like robots.
"Works alone" - reminiscent of Pelagianism, relying purely on human nature for salvation.

This post has been edited by yeeck: Mar 31 2020, 01:49 PM

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Coming back to our original point, do you still insist that nobody can actually keep the Law or God's Law or Moses Law, either fully or partially(= ACTS.15:19-29 & 21:20-25).?

While Christians are still on earth, I do not think the Lord/God Jesus Christ has destroyed the Law or made the Law redundant for Christians - HEB.8:10 & 10:15.
....... God gave His Law to Moses and the Jews to curb their inborn propensity to commit sins and wickedness(GEN.6:5) since fallen Man have all been born with evil/sinful hearts that often involuntarily sin-in-thoughts sent by the devil spiritually = the fiery darts of the wicked one - EPH.6:16. This was the kind of tutorship of the Jews by the Law referred to at GAL.3:24, ie to show the Jews (and others) how evil/sinful they were(/are) within or on the inside = deserved to be bound for hell = in need of a Saviour/Christ/Messiah to save them from hell when they die on earth. ......

1TIM.5: = Treatment of Church Members

5:1 Do not rebuke an older man, but exhort him as a father, younger men as brothers, 2 older women as mothers, younger women as sisters, with all purity.

Honor True Widows

3 Honor widows who are really widows. 4 But if any widow has children or grandchildren, let them first learn to show piety at home and to repay their parents; for this is good and acceptable before God. 5 Now she who is really a widow, and left alone, trusts in God and continues in supplications and prayers night and day. 6 But she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives. 7 And these things command, that they may be blameless. 8 But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

9 Do not let a widow under sixty years old be taken into the number, and not unless she has been the wife of one man, 10 well reported for good works: if she has brought up children, if she has lodged strangers, if she has washed the saints’ feet, if she has relieved the afflicted, if she has diligently followed every good work.

11 But refuse the younger widows; for when they have begun to grow wanton against Christ, they desire to marry, 12 having condemnation because they have cast off their first faith. 13 And besides they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house, and not only idle but also gossips and busybodies, saying things which they ought not. 14 Therefore I desire that the younger widows marry, bear children, manage the house, give no opportunity to the adversary to speak reproachfully. 15 For some have already turned aside after Satan. 16 If any believing man or woman has widows, let them relieve them, and do not let the church be burdened, that it may relieve those who are really widows.

Honor the Elders .......
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Salvation solely by faith in Jesus Christ and not by the works of the Law has been a basic or elementary Christian teaching since the 16th-century Protestant Reformation. Don't know why some mature Christians here are still obsessed or harping about it - HEB.6:1-8..?

Why are some Christians committing willful or intentional or voluntary sins/law-breaking and publicly confessing that nobody can actually keep the Law, including Christians like 'unknown warrior'.?

I think it is because they don't have the Law/Word of God fully in them = the power of the Holy Spirit of God to work fully in them to keep God's Law is short-circuited by their ignorance of God's Law, eg they ignore all or most of the laws/commandments of God as found in the Old Testament, they cherry-pick which laws/commandments to keep and not keep(= reject) as they desire, misled by Hypergrace teachings, etc. Cf; 1COR.6:9-11, GAL.5:19-21 = Christians who are unrepentant and keep on sinning willfully or practicing lawlessness will not inherit the kingdom of God in heaven, no matter their self-confessed faith - MATT.7:21-23.

EPH.6:17 = .... and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; ...
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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Mar 31 2020, 02:28 PM

You are claiming that. No matter how you phrase it, the moment you enforce that works is required, that makes it works is required for Salvation. There's no such thing as "initial Grace. It is not a 1 time given, that is not found in scripture.

Ephesians 2:8-10

4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

THe phrase (NOT) by works is there. Verse 8 & 9 Says Faith and Grace and discredit works.

The Book of James does not talk the deeds are justification for Salvation. Look at the consistent phrase "You see". This phrase is there in all the translation. who was James refering to in the phrase "you see"? God or Man?

Read those examples carefully. None of them talks about justification for Salvation.



This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Mar 31 2020, 02:52 PM

The New Covenant Law is about Love and Faith. Love holds all the virtues.

Yes I'm saying Nobody can keep God's law perfectly, partially maybe but it is no use to be use for justification for Salvation because when 1 break 1 law or partially it is as good as breaking all of them.

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"—and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.
James 2:14‭-‬26 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/jas.2.14-26.ESV

The Book of James does not talk the deeds are justification for Salvation. Look at the consistent phrase "You see". This phrase is there in all the translation. who was James refering to in the phrase "you see"? God or Man?

Read those examples carefully. None of them talks about justification for Salvation.

Galatians 2:15-16 (NIV) - 15-16

15 “We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in d Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Mar 31 2020, 02:57 PM

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You are stating that Nobody can keep God's Law perfectly, likely only because something is a bit off with your spiritual race of faith = racing like a spiritual teenager-in-Christ and not like a spiritual adult-in-Christ, eg maybe you refuse to leave your comfort zone of practicing a little bit of lawlessness or willful sinning here and there as you desire.
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2COR.7:1 = Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

HEB.6: = The Peril of Not Progressing

6:1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits.

1JOHN.2: = The Test of Knowing Him

3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

REV.3: = The Dead Church

3:1 “And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,

‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God.

Good day.
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No. Not true at all. I'm saying don't look to the law ie your law keeping as an assuarance. You need to look and keep your eyes on Christ, your God who saves you.

It is by beholding Christ, we are changed into the same image. (2 Corinthians 3:18)

I differ from most of you..in the way..how to get to holiness..... I gave scripture as what I've shared. It's all there.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Mar 31 2020, 04:20 PM

For us Catholics, it is an ongoing process after the initial grace of accepting the Faith. It seems to me that UW is closer to the Calvinist position.

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Like I told you a few times, salvation solely by faith in Jesus Christ and not by the works of the Law has been a basic or elementary Protestant Christian teaching since the 16th-century Protestant Reformation against the corrupt Catholic Popes.

Maybe you have an incomplete understanding of God's Law or Moses Law.

As per the Book of Leviticus, only unintentional sins/law-breaking could be forgiven = no earthly curse/punishment from God or His agents, eg accidents, mistakes, negligence, forgetfulness, etc. Manslaughter or unintentional killing resulted in being exiled to sanctuary cities, not cursed/punished by the death penalty. Unintentional sins include inherited Adam's Original Sin that resulted in sin-in-thoughts or sinning-in-the-hearts.
....... Intentional or willful sins/law-breaking could not be forgiven = earthly curse/punishment from God or His agents followed, eg the death penalty for murder, adultery, idolatry, etc.

Only with a good understanding of God's Law or Moses Law as found in the Old Testament, can Christians truly understand the spiritual teachings found in the New Testament, eg HEB.10:26-31, 1JOHN.1:5 - 2:2 & 5:16-17, ROMANS.5:12.

So, it is OK for Christians to once in awhile commit unintentional sins(= forgiven by the blood of Christ = no earthly curse follows) and learn not to do them again; but it is not OK for Christians to commit intentional or willful sins/law-breaking and not learn to not do them again even after suffering the earthly curse/punishment of God or His agents for their sins, eg commit sexual immorality like adultery/fornication repeatedly(= later may kena terminal cancer) or remain a practicing homosexual "Christian"(= later may kena HIV/AIDS/STD).

Good day.
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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Mar 31 2020, 04:47 PM

Excuse me, Catholicism does not teach salvation by works.

The Council of Trent teaches “none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification. ‘For, if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise,’ as the Apostle says, ‘grace is no more grace’”.

Session VI Chapter VI

Now they (adults) are disposed unto the said justice, when, excited and assisted by divine grace, conceiving faith by hearing, they are freely moved towards God, believing those things to be true which God has revealed and promised,-and this especially, that God justifies the impious by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves, from the fear of divine justice whereby they are profitably agitated, to consider the mercy of God, are raised unto hope, confiding that God will be propitious to them for Christ's sake; and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice; and are therefore moved against sins by a certain hatred and detestation, to wit, by that penitence which must be performed before baptism: lastly, when they purpose to receive baptism, to begin a new life, and to keep the commandments of God. Concerning this disposition it is written; He that cometh to God, must believe that he is, and is a rewarder to them that seek him; and, Be of good faith, son, thy sins are forgiven thee; and, The fear of the Lord driveth out sin; and, Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost; and, Going, therefore, teach ye all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; finally, Prepare your hearts unto the Lord.

Session VI Chapter XI

But no one, how much soever justified, ought to think himself exempt from the observance of the commandments; no one ought to make use of that rash saying, one prohibited by the Fathers under an anathema,-that the observance of the commandments of God is impossible for one that is justified. For God commands not impossibilities, but, by commanding, both admonishes thee to do what thou are able, and to pray for what thou art not able (to do), and aids thee that thou mayest be able; whose commandments are not heavy; whose yoke is sweet and whose burthen light. For, whoso are the sons of God, love Christ; but they who love him, keep his commandments, as Himself testifies; which, assuredly, with the divine help, they can do. For, although, during this mortal life, men, how holy and just soever, at times fall into at least light and daily sins, which are also called venial, not therefore do they cease to be just. For that cry of the just, Forgive us our trespasses, is both humble and true. And for this cause, the just themselves ought to feel themselves the more obligated to walk in the way of justice, in that, being already freed from sins, but made servants of God, they are able, living soberly, justly, and godly, to proceed onwards through Jesus Christ, by whom they have had access unto this grace.

For God forsakes not those who have been once justified by His grace, unless he be first forsaken by them. Wherefore, no one ought to flatter himself up with faith alone, fancying that by faith alone he is made an heir, and will obtain the inheritance, even though he suffer not with Christ, that so he may be also glorified with him. For even Christ Himself, as the Apostle saith, Whereas he was the son of God, learned obedience by the things which he suffered, and being consummated, he became, to all who obey him, the cause of eternal salvation. For which cause the same Apostle admonishes the justified, saying; Know you not that they that run in the race, all run indeed, but one receiveth the prize? So run that you may obtain. I therefore so run, not as at an uncertainty: I so fight, not as one beating the air, but I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection; lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a cast-away. So also the prince of the apostles, Peter; Labour the more that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing those things, you shall not sin at any time. From which it is plain, that those are opposed to the orthodox doctrine of religion, who assert that the just man sins, venially at least, in every good work; or, which is yet more insupportable, that he merits eternal punishments; as also those who state, that the just sin in all their works, if, in those works, they, together with this aim principally that God may be gloried, have in view also the eternal reward, in order to excite their sloth, and to encourage themselves to run in the course: whereas it is written, I have inclined my heart to do all thy justifications for the reward: and, concerning Moses, the Apostle saith, that he looked unto the reward.

It's not ok to sin.

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No sin, whether intentional or unintentional, can disqualify a person from being saved from hell by faith, except the very rare sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit of God. Even the about-to-be-crucified young Jewish robber got saved but he still had to die for his intentional sin of robbery/stealing under Roman Law - LUKE.23:43.
....... But once the sinner has come into faith and become a Christian, he/she is to go and sin the former sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon him/her - JOHN.5:14 & 8:11.
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Yes, I agree with you that Christians should try their best not to even commit unintentional sins like accidents, mistakes, negligence, forgetfulness, etc that offended others or self or God/Jesus. But if they still fail to do so once in awhile, they can avail for forgiveness(= no earthly curse/punishment from God) through the following Scripture, .......

1JOHN.1:5 - 2:2 = Fellowship with Him and One Another

1:5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

IMO;

"walk in darkness" = commit intentional or willful sins - 1COR.6:9-11, GAL.5:19-21, HEB.10:26-31

"no sin" and "we have not sinned" = involuntary or unintentional sinning-in-the-heart, eg immoral sexual lust for another's wife or daughter or sister - inherited Adam's Original Sin.

"if anyone sins" = unintentional sins, not intentional/willful sins, since apostle John was likely writing to his fellow Jewish Christians who were already well-versed with God's Law or Moses Law.

Good day.
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This post has been edited by lurkingaround: Mar 31 2020, 10:35 PM

You are a RC & you get it!

ROFLMAO

Okie . . . let me word this succinctly, hmmm

When people are led away by doctrinal delusion, the problem is, false belief, leads to false practice.

See, what you believe in, has a great influence on how you behave.

And there's one example of serious delusion in our day, it is, what we call : ANTINOMIANISM.

It comes from the Greek, that has to do with being against LAW.

This is not a new thing, but it's alive & well among professing believers today & among many teachers.

The idea is this, that the LAW of God, has now, in the 'new testament age', nothing to do with the Christian.

That's all a thing of the past.

And the scripture that is misused, to support that idea, is in the book of Romans, which UW loves to quote, "we are not under the Law, but under Grace."

And what that really is, is taking that scripture out of context.

Because it actually tells you in that context, that SIN SHALL NOT HAVE DOMINION OVER YOU.

But UW actually extrapolates that idea




UW knows how to quote Ephesians 2:8-10, but is completely blind to verse 10.

"For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

If you do not work hand in hand & submit to the Spirit of God, you think fruits come automatically?

Jadi, pikir2kan lah, wahai unknownwarrior.



p.s. I'm in no way proposing a 'salvation by works' Christianity.

You are missing the mark by a huge margin, if you think that's what i've been pushing all along.



"He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son." - Rev 21:7


Stay safe everyone! & also thomasthai down under!

If we are talking about salvific faith, then yes, salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone, not of anything by your own merits.

I think Catholic theology agrees on this.

It it only when it comes to when the Christian falls into mortal sin that catholicism and protestants differ.

You believe that after the Christian falls into mortal sin, he has to work his way back into good standing with God, this is where penance, confessions, meritorious prayers, mass all come into play, and if he dies without enough deeds, he will be sent to purgotory.

This is where generally where we differ. (or at this point, we are in the sanctification stage).

Just to be accurate about the terms we are using here.



I don't think he is preaching lawlessness.

But the law with reference to the new and old covenant is a very complicated matter.

In the new testament, sometimes the law can mean old testament, sometimes the 5 books of Moses, sometimes the 600 Israelite laws, sometimes the 10 commandments, sometimes the moral code of God, sometimes the jewish interpretation of all of those (the talmud)

It demands a very thorough understanding of the old testament.

Thanks, you too.

I'm surprise that you actually said this;

No sin, whether intentional or unintentional, can disqualify a person from being saved from hell by faith, except the very rare sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit of God.

Ha. So why are you having a bad opinion of what I shared then? It hinges on that actually.

Thank you. Finally someone with some spiritual insight.