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 LYN Christian Fellowship Thread Ver 15

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thomasthai
post Oct 9 2019, 07:39 AM

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QUOTE(lurkingaround @ Oct 8 2019, 06:27 PM)
[i] The Bible says God will bless those who keep His Law/commandments with a good and long life on earth - DEUTERONOMY.28, PROVERBS.1, ROMANS.2:1-12.
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11 of the 12 apostles were martyred rather early in their lives.
Most of them had very little to live on when they were expanding the churches.

Are you implying that the apostles did not keep the commandments of God? hmm.gif
thomasthai
post Oct 9 2019, 12:22 PM

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QUOTE(yeeck @ Oct 9 2019, 12:18 PM)
But others will point to ‘If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments’  (Matt. 19:17).
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That's a very interesting account that I had been studying just recently.

Let me prepare an answer for that for the benefit of everyone.
thomasthai
post Oct 9 2019, 12:30 PM

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the rich ruler
QUOTE
Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good?  No one is  good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” He said to Him, “Which ones?” Jesus said, “ ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’  ‘Honor your father and  your  mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’  ” The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?” Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions. Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.  And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
Matthew 19:16‭-‬30 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/mat.19.16-30.NKJV
Immediately, there are 2 big questions that we need to consider here.

1) Is Jesus denying His deity here when He said, 'Why do you call me good?

2) Did Jesus say we are saved by keeping the 10 commandments here?

This post has been edited by thomasthai: Oct 9 2019, 12:32 PM
thomasthai
post Oct 9 2019, 12:45 PM

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1) First of all, Jesus did not say He is NOT good, and He did Not say He is not God.

He was merely questioning the man, what is his standard of good.

2) The 2nd part of the answer from Jesus is the answer to what 'good' standard is required for salvation.

The man thought that he had already fulfilled all the commandments to have eternal life, but Jesus rebuked him for not seeing that he has already put his wealth before God, (the first and most important commandment), and refusing to follow Him.

The good standard here is to see you have fallen short of the required law and put your faith in Christ and follow Him.
thomasthai
post Oct 9 2019, 12:51 PM

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QUOTE(lurkingaround @ Oct 9 2019, 12:40 PM)
True. Even the apostles' leader, Jesus Christ, was martyred/crucified early in His life at the age of 33,  in order to gift salvation from hell to all believers in the world.
....... Remember, this had happened exclusively during the era of the New Covenant of Faith in the 1st century AD, ie not in general and not to all Christians forthwith. Similarly for the many miracles, signs and wonders wrought by His 12 apostles and 108 disciples, ie not by just any ordinary Christian forthwith.


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Don't know what's the connection of all the bible verses with what I'm asking you.

You are saying the 1st century Christians being persecuted is the norm, but subsequently all Christians who obey the commandments will have a long and healthy life?
thomasthai
post Oct 9 2019, 12:52 PM

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QUOTE(yeeck @ Oct 9 2019, 12:46 PM)
Nothing to disagree with you here.
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Just trying to say that Jesus did not say keeping the 10 commandments will get you saved.
thomasthai
post Mar 17 2020, 06:38 AM

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QUOTE(aral3005 @ Mar 17 2020, 01:52 AM)
The word 'am' in john 8:58 is derived from greek text 'eimi' which can be translated to other word such as 'was", 'have'

But the point is the original text is not even the same, hence why 2 different phrase can be translated to one ' i am'.

I suggest u just to search the original text and u will find the last phrase not even the same and translated into one 'i am'.

Usually certain words need to be read and translated carefully when reading bible, such as 'son of god' or 'god'
Here in john 20:28 john expressed/saying my lord and my god, does not necessarily means jesus is god.
To me this verse contradicting another verses in the bible, some even come out from jesus himself.
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Hi friend,

You are correct, sometimes in Greek, the context has to determine the meaning of the word used.

In John's gospel, we see Jesus declared Himself 'I am' many times.
QUOTE
I am the bread of life (chapter 6)
I am the light of the world (chap 8)
I am the door (chap 10)
I am the good shepherd (chap 10)
I am the ressurection and the life (chap 11)
I am the way, the truth and life (chap 14)
I am the vine (chap 15)
But when He said before Abraham was, I am, that was no doubt a divine declaration.

The jews understood that was the divine YHWH name because they picked up stones to try to kill Him. It was blasphemy to them.

So the english translators were correct to equate it to the YHWH/ I AM.

thomasthai
post Mar 18 2020, 05:06 AM

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QUOTE(aral3005 @ Mar 17 2020, 01:28 PM)
In my previous post i mentioned about the jews earlier question, they hardly accept when jesus compare himself to great prophet abraham as a prophet and how they react to it by try to stone jesus.

They are following Deuteronomy 18:20 that false prophets must be killed.

Or perhaps u can find a verse where the jews must kill false god in the bible?
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It is important that in reading any scriptures, you let the text explain what it means rather than to put your own meaning into the text.
QUOTE
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
John 8:56‭-‬58 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/jhn.8.56-58.NKJV


From the jews' question, it is obvious that Jesus was claiming either He was the oldest person alive (Abraham died more than a thousand years before Jesus came) or He was claiming the Eternal attribute of God. Notice that it is not I was or I will be.

The jews are super careful to not simply misuse the name of God, the YHWH.

Leviticus 24 says that blaspheming the name of God must be stoned to death.

This post has been edited by thomasthai: Mar 18 2020, 05:06 AM
thomasthai
post Mar 19 2020, 06:56 AM

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QUOTE(aral3005 @ Mar 18 2020, 02:27 PM)
The 50 years old part is connected with the rebirth if I'm not mistaken.
I do believe before born into this world, all prophets already existed and appointed  in plain of God's knowledge. Besides jeremiah 1:5, i do remember there is another verse mentioning about this but forgot the place.

If we read john 8 from first verse, the issue is about the prophecy of jesus, no issue of godhood was discussed.
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There's no mention of any rebirth in the text, so any rebirth meaning is plain speculation.

In the Christian scriptures, all who will have saving faith in God are foreknew by God, not only the prophets.

QUOTE
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
Ephesians 1:3‭-‬4 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/eph.1.3-4.NKJV


QUOTE
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to  be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Romans 8:29‭-‬30 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/rom.8.29-30.NKJV


So the idea that Jesus was saying He was only a prophet foreknew by God in John 8 is really doesn't hold any water.

In fact, God knows every single person who will ever walk the earth before they were even born.

Jeremiah 1:5 is what we call the doctrine of election.

God elects people to have saving faith. But that's another story for another day.

This post has been edited by thomasthai: Mar 19 2020, 07:20 AM
thomasthai
post Mar 19 2020, 07:37 AM

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@aral3005

Besides trying to understand bits and pieces here and there in the scriptures, another way to interpreting scripture is piecing the whole book and find out the author's intention and what he was trying to say.

So what was the apostle John's intention for writing the book?

QUOTE
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
John 1:1‭-‬2 NKJV
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And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 1:14 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/jhn.1.14.NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/jhn.1.1-2.NKJV


You see, in the opening of the book, John already said the Word was with God, and was God in the very beginning.

There you have it, the declaration that Jesus was with God, and was God.

This has tripped people over for 2000 years. How can Jesus be God and be with God? John doesn't explain.

That is the mystery of the Trinity.

The whole gospel of John presents Jesus as God.
thomasthai
post Mar 20 2020, 10:15 AM

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QUOTE(aral3005 @ Mar 19 2020, 11:15 PM)
So meaning in the beginning only have 2 gods?

There are verses that crystal clear, and also verses which another verses can contadict it. I will stick with the clear ones.
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No, note that there are no God(s) in the text, God is singular.

Jesus is not another God, or a junior God, or a god.

Jesus is God.

The trinity is consistently found in the old and new testament.

It is clear as day.
thomasthai
post Mar 24 2020, 03:50 AM

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QUOTE(aral3005 @ Mar 24 2020, 12:18 AM)
If 'the lord' here refer to jesus, then jesus himslef said this in luke 18:19
“Why do you call Me good?” Jesus replied. “No one is good except God alone

One thing i cant understand is, do the christian follower read the bible before believing, or speak or giving statement?cz mostly the bible itself that contradict their understanding.

Bro, the trinity/triune is already an extrabiblical concept/doctrine as u can found in christian history
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Hi again friend,

I find your reading of the bible verses seriously biased against the plain meaning of the text.

QUOTE
Why do you call Me good?” Jesus replied. “No one is good except God alone
Re-read the text again.

The plain meaning here:
1) Jesus did not say He is NOT good
2) Jesus did not say He is NOT God.

If you say Jesus was denying His divinity in these verses, you are putting your own interpretation into it.

You see how biased one can be in reading a text?

We call this eisegesis. Reading your own interpretation into the text.
thomasthai
post Mar 31 2020, 12:39 PM

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I dont know if you guys realised, but you are going down the same path for the n-th time.
thomasthai
post Mar 31 2020, 12:52 PM

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My opinion is, both camps (faith and law/obedience) are talking about the same thing.

To obey the law (do not steal, do not kill) without faith in Jesus and His gospel cannot save.

At the same time, to say that you have faith in Jesus, but do not love your neighbour, etc is also dead faith.

In history, the church has had problems balancing the 2 elements. They either fall into anti-nomianism or legalism.

The reformers talked about the order of salvation (Ordo salutis) which can be demonstrated from scriptures.

Regeneration by God -> genuine faith -> sanctification by God -> good works/obedience.

If you mess up the order, or you diminish any element, you fall into either extreme.
thomasthai
post Apr 1 2020, 08:58 AM

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QUOTE(yeeck @ Mar 31 2020, 01:31 PM)

Neither "faith alone" nor "grace alone" nor "works alone" are correct when it’s used to say that you don’t need to in any way to cooperate with God’s grace, that a merely intellectual faith would save you, nor accepting the initial grace given but not persevering, nor relying on works alone without faith. All three by themselves without the others are false.

"Faith alone" - dead
"Grace alone" - without cooperating on our part make us like robots.
"Works alone" - reminiscent of Pelagianism, relying purely on human nature for salvation.
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If we are talking about salvific faith, then yes, salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone, not of anything by your own merits.

I think Catholic theology agrees on this.

It it only when it comes to when the Christian falls into mortal sin that catholicism and protestants differ.

You believe that after the Christian falls into mortal sin, he has to work his way back into good standing with God, this is where penance, confessions, meritorious prayers, mass all come into play, and if he dies without enough deeds, he will be sent to purgotory.

This is where generally where we differ. (or at this point, we are in the sanctification stage).

Just to be accurate about the terms we are using here.



QUOTE(lurkingaround @ Mar 31 2020, 02:17 PM)


Why are some Christians committing willful or intentional or voluntary sins/law-breaking and publicly confessing that nobody can actually keep the Law, including Christians like 'unknown warrior'.?

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I don't think he is preaching lawlessness.

But the law with reference to the new and old covenant is a very complicated matter.

In the new testament, sometimes the law can mean old testament, sometimes the 5 books of Moses, sometimes the 600 Israelite laws, sometimes the 10 commandments, sometimes the moral code of God, sometimes the jewish interpretation of all of those (the talmud)

It demands a very thorough understanding of the old testament.

QUOTE(Mr. WongSF @ Apr 1 2020, 04:37 AM)

Stay safe everyone! & also thomasthai down under!  icon_rolleyes.gif
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Thanks, you too. icon_rolleyes.gif
thomasthai
post Apr 2 2020, 05:49 AM

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QUOTE(aral3005 @ Apr 1 2020, 11:47 PM)
That means jesus is not god as he is not immortal.
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I think you are in a big dilemma here.

The apostles who wrote the new testament taught that Jesus is God.

The church that the apostles started worshipped Jesus as God.

Thousands of early literature from 100 AD wrote that Jesus is God

The enemies of Jesus knew that Jesus claimed He is God.

Roman and Jewish historians wrote that christians worshipped Jesus as God.

People who mocked christians knew they worshipped Jesus as God

Chirstians for 2000+ years worshipped Jesus as God.

At what point did you think that Christians got it wrong?
thomasthai
post Apr 2 2020, 06:27 AM

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QUOTE(yeeck @ Apr 1 2020, 01:43 PM)
What you term as salvific faith, we Catholics call it justification,. Why the difference I have no idea though, perhaps extreme antinomianism in play. Penance etc after repentance is actually Biblical, in fact penance and repentance are quite synonymous in the Bible:

Of course I realize some of you here thinks that penance is a dirty word in Christianity, something peculiar only to Catholics, and all that is needed was a genuine sense of sorrow for sin. Some even say that sorrow for sin was not needed. They claimed that repentance merely meant that you intellectually changed the way you thought from that moment forwards without any reference to past actions. I won't get into that debate here as I realize there are a multitude of denominations here having different ideas/teachings about that.
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I think i have wrote this before, we differ in what we mean by justification too.

Catholics' definition of being justified/made righteous unfortunately came from a mistranslation of the Latin Vulgate, which used the Iustificare which carries the meaning of made righteous, which formed the doctrine of infused righteousness, where the Christian has to contribute his part of his righteousness while God does His part.

Greek manuscripts always uses dikaiosune, imputed righteousness, where the believer is fully righteous at the point of justification, apart from anything he does.

If you think the reformers were making doctrines up, can I recommend you a book:

https://www.amazon.com/Long-Before-Luther-T...n/dp/0802418023

This is a huge collection of early church father writings on what they thought were the gospel of justification by faith.


thomasthai
post Apr 6 2020, 06:35 AM

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QUOTE(aral3005 @ Apr 3 2020, 11:08 PM)
Early jesus followers dont even have trinity concept.
U must have study the christian history and be able to point out when this trinity became the foundation in christian.

U can point out what everyone said about jesus, but, what is the concept of god taught by jesus?
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I know muslims always claim that the word trinity does not exist in the bible,, and always claim that it is polytheism.

I can't go through the whole bible with you here, but from cover to cover the doctrine of the trinity can stand every verse of the bible.

Just because Jesus did not say He is God in a way you would understand doesn't mean He did not say it.

In fact, that was the only reason He was crucified for.

Did Muhammad say he was a prophet from his own mouth? If he didn't, can I conclude that he wasnt a prophet?
thomasthai
post Apr 6 2020, 09:04 AM

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QUOTE(prophetjul @ Apr 6 2020, 08:56 AM)
Actually Jesus did say many time He was God, just not in English.  laugh.gif

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
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The typical claim from a muslim goes like this:

Show me a text where Jesus said: I am God, worship me!

If there is none, Jesus did not say it.

They don't understand that a text without a context is a pretext for a prooftext

This post has been edited by thomasthai: Apr 6 2020, 09:08 AM
thomasthai
post Apr 6 2020, 09:19 AM

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QUOTE(prophetjul @ Apr 6 2020, 09:14 AM)
I think, while the Muslims are indoctrinated to think as such, the same can be said for Christians who do not bother to research and depend solely on their pastors for bible teachings.

Most of us read it in English. Unfortunately, the orginal texts are most Hebrew and with Jewish worldview contexts and tons of Jewish idioms, which we when reading in English with a Greco Roman worldview gets the context all wrong!

The cheek is that some translators put in English words in the original textual sentences to make it look right! 
Then, the syntax of the sentences just loses it all.  shakehead.gif
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What translation do you use?

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