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 LYN Christian Fellowship V14 (Group)

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thomasthai
post Aug 21 2018, 05:16 AM

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QUOTE(Haledoch @ Aug 20 2018, 07:44 PM)
Ohh now you are saying Jehovah is 3 persons?
Do you mean Jesus Christ is 3 persons?
Or are you still adamant Jesus is not Jehovah? Who should I believe you or Charles Spurgeon?

Make up your mind. You are making the trinity doctrine looks bad.
*
Funny you keep mentioning charles spurgeon. The spurgeon i know is a trinitarian laugh.gif

Heres a quote from him
QUOTE
We can never understand how Father, Son, and Holy Spirit can be three and yet one. For my part, I have long ago given up any desire to understand this great mystery, for I am perfectly satisfied that, if I could understand it, it would not be true, because God, from the very nature of things, must be incomprehensible." ~ Charles H. Spurgeon


The great theologians after the reformation (spurgeon, ji packer, bb warfield, aw tozer, arthur pink, cs lewis) are all trinitarians, and would consider unitarian views a heresy.

Another quote from spurgeon
QUOTE
The longer I live, the clearer does it appear that John Calvin’s system is the nearest to perfection.


I thought you are anti calvinist? How are you reading spurgeon?

Answering your question, dont believe me, believe spurgeon, i am nowhere near him laugh.gif

This post has been edited by thomasthai: Aug 21 2018, 05:28 AM
thomasthai
post Aug 21 2018, 06:32 AM

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QUOTE(pehkay @ Aug 20 2018, 10:02 PM)
Hahaha ... The Lord likened Himself to a vine tree (grapevine). Definitely not a tall tree. *wink*. I am glad the Bible is not a book of botany tongue.gif

Unfortunately I don't tend to use the number analogies biggrin.gif but I will agree with you that Unitarians lacked the understanding (or choose to ignore) in two points:

1) confuse the biblical distinction between the ontological Trinity and the economic Trinity, conflate the two concepts into one, and thus assign the characteristics of the economic Trinity to the ontological Trinity.

2) do not believe in the coexistence (exists essentially at the same time eternally) (Matthew 3:16-17) and coinherence (John 14:11) of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. The mutual indwelling of Person within one another is one aspect of the oneness. There is no physical representation for this.

They (Uni) tend to share only the FULL force of one side of the truth. A fair person will list out the FULL force of both sides & let the text speaks for itself.

I will be fair that ordinary Christians (and even theologians) subconsciously having tritheistic tendencies (Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology: ...). They do not differentiate that Triune God is distinct yet not separate. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three distinct centers of consciousness and volition, or "I’s," eternally involved in loving subject-object relationship. For example, commenting on John 10:30 (“I and the Father are one”). Yet, the modern usage of "person" (vs the ancient use) cannot be stretched too far.
When the full force of both sides is displayed, one will see the Threeness in His immanent one Being and the oneness in the economical aspect of three. One will even see the "modalistic" identification of the Father and Son (Isa 9:6) and Son and Spirit (1 Cor 15:45; 2 Cor 3:17) because these are economical verses. Instance after instance that the three of the trinity, while distinct in their respective hypostases, operate as one in their actions. Thus, whatever one of the Trinity does must be understood as being done by the other two as well. There is never an action of one of the Trinity that is independent of the other two. While the personal distinctions among the three are maintained, any operation of the Trinity is one operation, and hence when one acts, the other two are identified with the one.
*
I always need to read your reply many times to understand what you are saying.

Putting it in layman's terms,

there is always a distinction between the 3 persons, Father, Son and Spirit by plain revelation of the text.

At the same time the 3 persons are in unity, do not operate independent of each other.

Just take it as it is plainly revealed.

To make the Father = Son = Holy Spirit is blatant misrepresentation and being unfaithful to scriptures.
Haledoch
post Aug 21 2018, 07:30 AM

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QUOTE(thomasthai @ Aug 21 2018, 05:16 AM)
Funny you keep mentioning charles spurgeon. The spurgeon i know is a trinitarian laugh.gif

Heres a quote from him
The great theologians after the reformation (spurgeon, ji packer, bb warfield, aw tozer, arthur pink, cs lewis) are all trinitarians, and would consider unitarian views a heresy.

Another quote from spurgeon
I thought you are anti calvinist? How are you reading spurgeon?

Answering your question, dont believe me, believe spurgeon, i am nowhere near him laugh.gif
*
I know, I just point out the inconsistency of the trinity doctrine. How do know what they think in their own personal mind of who Jesus is? Do you think they believe Jesus is 3 persons like you?

Jehovah is God the Father. Jesus is God the Father. Jesus is Jehovah. How simple is that? Yet, you keep on believing in the trinity which is way too complex and even you get yourself confused with it.
Haledoch
post Aug 21 2018, 08:27 AM

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"The interesting thing as that those who partake of the harlot church system believe the law of God was abolished through Christ. However, the 'fruit' of their lawlessness is well manifested today."

Taken from this site - Revelation 13, the False Christ, God the Son and the Trinity Doctrine

Whoever wants to bash me up for this, please, I welcome you to do that.
thomasthai
post Aug 21 2018, 08:31 AM

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QUOTE(Haledoch @ Aug 21 2018, 07:30 AM)
I know, I just point out the inconsistency of the trinity doctrine. How do know what they think in their own personal mind of who Jesus is? Do you think they believe Jesus is 3 persons like you?

Jehovah is God the Father. Jesus is God the Father. Jesus is Jehovah. How simple is that? Yet, you keep on believing in the trinity which is way too complex and even you get yourself confused with it.
*
Tell me, where did Jesus say He is the Father?
pehkay
post Aug 21 2018, 09:26 AM

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QUOTE(thomasthai @ Aug 21 2018, 06:32 AM)
I always need to read your reply many times to understand what you are saying.

Putting it in layman's terms,

there is always a distinction between the 3 persons, Father, Son and Spirit by plain revelation of the text.

At the same time the 3 persons are in unity, do not operate independent of each other.

Just take it as it is plainly revealed.

To make the Father = Son = Holy Spirit is blatant misrepresentation and being unfaithful to scriptures.
*
I tried to be precise in layman terms but .... sometimes, you still need to use a term to convey.

The distinction of the Three is easy to understand.

QUOTE(thomasthai @ Aug 21 2018, 06:32 AM)
I always need to read your reply many times to understand what you are saying.
At the same time the 3 persons are in unity, do not operate independent of each other.
This is easy to understand but not so easy biggrin.gif. For example, we do not say the Father or the Spirit became a man ... yet, the Bible clearly states God was manifested in the flesh (1 Tim 3:16). We do not say the Father died on the cross (a heresy) yet Acts 20:28 that the blood that Christ shed on the cross was God's own blood.

.....

A few more points:

1) To coexist is to exist together at the same time. To coinhere is to exist in one another, to dwell in one another. To say that the Father and the Son coexist means that they exist together. But to say that the Father and the Son coinhere means that they dwell in one another.

This explains the oneness of the Triune God in our experience.


2) The immanent and economical ... er ... let say urk ... ohm .... to put in layman terms is a bit hard.

One refers to the being of the Triune God i.e. in His life and His being He is one, always one, eternally one. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are never separated. They are always coinhering with one another, living within one another.

God's economy refers to God's plan, arrangements, work, and activities. God's economy is to work Himself as life and everything into His chosen and redeemed people so that they may be His many sons and members of the Body of Christ to express Him. in order to carry out this tremendous purpose, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit each have a distinct function. (More can be say). You see the Threeness more economically yet they are so One that each can be identified with other.

E.g. The Father planned, the Son redeemed through His vicarious death, and the Spirit seals the redeemed ones (Eph. 1:4-14).

This explains the Jesus praying to the Father. This is economical. The Father left or forsake the Son economically on the cross (but not essentially). This is easily explained as the economical Trinity.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Aug 21 2018, 09:26 AM
unknown warrior
post Aug 21 2018, 09:38 AM

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QUOTE(Haledoch @ Aug 21 2018, 08:27 AM)
"The interesting thing as that those who partake of the harlot church system believe the law of God was abolished through Christ. However, the 'fruit' of their lawlessness is well manifested today."

Taken from this site - Revelation 13, the False Christ, God the Son and the Trinity Doctrine

Whoever wants to bash me up for this, please, I welcome you to do that.
*
Ephesians 2:15 (KJV) - Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Christ abolished the imputation of God's Law, the condemnation, meaning to say....If you contradicts this; saying God's law is not abolished of it's imputation, you are contradicting this verse.

You can even paraphrase it, in the sense the Law is still required, it still contradict this verse. It's either Christ justifies you or the law justifies you, you can only choose one. God will not have both. (Galatians 5:4)

* This is only for believers and those who accept Christ. For the unbelievers..the law still stands against them.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Aug 21 2018, 11:03 AM
unknown warrior
post Aug 21 2018, 09:40 AM

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QUOTE(Haledoch @ Aug 20 2018, 11:19 PM)
I think I have found the simplest answer to what Faith REALLY means.

Faith is simply this: To act on the Will of God.

1. First LISTEN to His Voice.
2. Then act on it.
3. That is true faith.

John 10:27
My sheep HEAR My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

Romans 10:17
So then faith comes by HEARING, and hearing by the word of God.

John 8:47
He who is of God HEARS God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.

Hebrew 11:1
Now faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things not seen.

Simply believing, and/or doing any good work ain't going to cut it, for God will consider that filthy. It must be an action based on His will that we must be able to hear.

The thief on the cross was saved because he chose to defend Jesus from the mockery of the other thief. That was the will of God he heard from his heart on which he responded to.

Rahab the prostitute was saved because she chose to hide the messengers from the King of Jericho, even though she put herself in danger of doing it. She responded and acted on the will of God that was put in her heart.
*
No you missed the point completely, nevermind.

*I see there are still attempts to justify the dying thieves salvation on ground of "doings/performance" other than the ground of grace. The point is not about defending Jesus but to prove his talk with his walk and that will take time as evidence to others because anybody can just "talk". Yet....the thief was granted Salvation apart from that opportunity to prove himself..which proves God's grace as the ground and basis of Salvation.

You can quote the "penitence thief"...the 7 steps the thief did, whatever it is...it's still "talk". The thief is a bullet proof evidence, quite impossible to break in argument that the Gospel outlined in the Bible is consistent...which is Salvation is by Grace of God and given by Faith through confession of the mouth, in essence NOTHING TO DO, ONLY BELIEVE. (Context is justification).

Now no where am I teaching, don't do anything as Christians...that is another matter altogether. icon_rolleyes.gif

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Aug 21 2018, 11:20 AM
yeeck
post Aug 21 2018, 11:09 AM

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QUOTE(Haledoch @ Aug 20 2018, 06:07 PM)
You should learn (hear) from God directly. This is what the Holy Spirit does to teach.

John 14:26
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

I have no need of men's teaching, or church, or whoever when God Himself is my teacher.
*
Read up Luke 10:16 and Matt 18:17.

This post has been edited by yeeck: Aug 21 2018, 11:09 AM
unknown warrior
post Aug 21 2018, 11:48 AM

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There are erroneous teaching propagated that you will never know if your sins are truly forgiven

The Answer to counter that is found here:


1 John 2:12 (NIV) - I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven through His name.

Past tense.


unknown warrior
post Aug 23 2018, 10:24 PM

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Anthony Hopkins From Atheist to Believer of God
Haledoch
post Aug 27 2018, 08:41 AM

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QUOTE(thomasthai @ Aug 21 2018, 08:31 AM)
Tell me, where did Jesus say He is the Father?
*
A pleasure to answer this. With pride, I will boast in the Lord of the blessed Truth that God gives me,

John 10:30
I and My Father are one.


John 14:9
Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?


John 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”


Then Paul confirmed the Oneness of God in Jesus Christ,

Colossians 2:9
For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;


If Jesus Christ is FULLY GOD, then for a trinitarian He must be three persons, which is an impossibility, since Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John bore witness that Jesus Christ IS ONE.

And even an Angel became the witness of the Jesus as the Only True God.

Matthew 1:23
“Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”


Listen carefully, this is the SHEMA of Israelites in the past and present, which all of us SHOULD confess and utter every day.

Deuteronomy 6:4
“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is ONE!


And only a fool cannot and will not see the above evidence and still want to twist the meaning of the Scriptures to fit their foolish trinity doctrine.

So my advice is: be careful who you pray to, because of this verse,

John 4:24
God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in SPIRIT and TRUTH.”


The trinity doctrine is mainstream Christianity. It is widely popular, widely accepted, and the most obvious road for a person to choose. But just remember on this verses,

Matthew 7:13-14
“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.


God is a jealous God. So we should be very careful who we worship. Remember the story of Micah in Judges 17. He was a man full of zeal for God, yet his way of worship was not the correct way to worship God. And because of him, he introduced idolatry in the people of Israelites.
unknown warrior
post Aug 27 2018, 01:42 PM

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QUOTE(Haledoch @ Aug 27 2018, 08:41 AM)
A pleasure to answer this. With pride, I will boast in the Lord of the blessed Truth that God gives me,

John 10:30
I and My Father are one.


John 14:9
Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?


John 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”


Then Paul confirmed the Oneness of God in Jesus Christ,

Colossians 2:9
For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;


If Jesus Christ is FULLY GOD, then for a trinitarian He must be three persons, which is an impossibility, since Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John bore witness that Jesus Christ IS ONE.

And even an Angel became the witness of the Jesus as the Only True God.

Matthew 1:23
“Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”


Listen carefully, this is the SHEMA of Israelites in the past and present, which all of us SHOULD confess and utter every day.

Deuteronomy 6:4
“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is ONE!


And only a fool cannot and will not see the above evidence and still want to twist the meaning of the Scriptures to fit their foolish trinity doctrine.

So my advice is: be careful who you pray to, because of this verse,

John 4:24
God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in SPIRIT and TRUTH.”


The trinity doctrine is mainstream Christianity. It is widely popular, widely accepted, and the most obvious road for a person to choose. But just remember on this verses,

Matthew 7:13-14
“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.


God is a jealous God. So we should be very careful who we worship. Remember the story of Micah in Judges 17. He was a man full of zeal for God, yet his way of worship was not the correct way to worship God. And because of him, he introduced idolatry in the people of Israelites.
*
Those verses shows the Triune part, then there are also the distinct part, for example when Christ cried to Father God at the cross. If they are one and the same, meaning no distinction, Christ shouldn't be crying "My God My God, why have you forsaken me".

He can't be forsaking himself, doesn't make any sense then.

This post has been edited by unknown warrior: Aug 27 2018, 01:53 PM
Haledoch
post Aug 28 2018, 08:47 AM

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The Plan of Salvation

John 1:1 (KJV)
In the beginning was the Word,

Before the creation of time, space, and matter, there was already a PLAN.

..and the Word was with God,
God had a plan, this plan belongs to God; the plan is God's plan.

..and the Word was God.
The plan was God to be the main actor of it, the sole player, the star of the plan. God made a plan for Himself. God WAS the PLAN.

John 1:2 (KJV)
The same was in the beginning with God.

God envisaged Himself in the plan as Jesus Christ from eternity.

John 1:3 (KJV)
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The creation of everything: the earth, the galaxies, the heavens, the creatures, etc, were done as part of His plan, to contribute to the realization of the main purpose of the plan - Salvation through God.

John 1:14 (KJV)
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...

The plan was for God to become flesh, and to live, and be raised among human.
thomasthai
post Aug 28 2018, 09:04 AM

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QUOTE(Haledoch @ Aug 27 2018, 08:41 AM)
A pleasure to answer this. With pride, I will boast in the Lord of the blessed Truth that God gives me,

John 10:30
I and My Father are one.
This may be interpreted as one in unity.

Cross reference:
QUOTE
The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;  I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.
John 17:22‭-‬23 NASB
https://bible.com/bible/100/jhn.17.22-23.NASB

In the portion, Jesus is praying for the unity of all the disciples just as the unity of Himself with the Father.

So when Jesus says he is one with the Father, it is meant as in unity, not one in person.

QUOTE
John 14:9
Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Jesus is the exact representation of the Father, so the disciples see the Father and his nature in Jesus.

Cross reference:
QUOTE
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Hebrews 1:1‭-‬3 NASB
https://bible.com/bible/100/heb.1.1-3.NASB

God spoke to us in the last days through His Son Jesus, who is the exact representation of Him, shares all His glory and power and might.

Hebrews still makes a distinction even though it says he is the exact representation of God.

QUOTE
John 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

This is Jesus claim to deity. He's saying he wasnt created at any point in time. He was eternally co-existent with God.

Cross reference
QUOTE
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
John 1:1‭-‬2 NASB
https://bible.com/bible/100/jhn.1.1-2.NASB


He was eternally co-existent with the Father. He in NOT the Father.

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «


The old and new testament is very explicit that there is God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit, it teaches us the make the distinction.

For example Psalm 110;
QUOTE
The Lord says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet."
Psalms 110:1 NASB
https://bible.com/bible/100/psa.110.1.NASB


Here is the most quoted text in the new testament of the messiah.

David says, the Lord says to my Lord, which we know as God talking to Jesus that he will ultimately give him all inheritence.

Old testament explicitly tells us there are two Lords here.

In fact, in the new testament, we learn the Spirit has the role of illumination, conviction, inspiring the recording of scriptures etc. Jesus always refers to the Spirit as 'He'.

You have two options here.

1) To say that all the text we are reading is not what it means.
When Jesus says the Father, he actually means himself. When Jesus refers to the Spirit, he also mean himself.
Or
2) To acknowledge that the the text says what it means. Our God is one in essence, and three in persons.

I think we are going in circles here. Conclusion, If there is one verse that says Jesus is the Father, the doctrine of trinity falls. But 2000 years of studying the scriptures prove there is no such verse.

thomasthai
post Aug 28 2018, 09:08 AM

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QUOTE(Haledoch @ Aug 28 2018, 08:47 AM)
The Plan of Salvation

John 1:1 (KJV)
In the beginning was the Word,

Before the creation of time, space, and matter, there was already a PLAN.

..and the Word was with God,
God had a plan, this plan belongs to God; the plan is God's plan.

..and the Word was God.
The plan was God to be the main actor of it, the sole player, the star of the plan. God made a plan for Himself. God WAS the PLAN.

John 1:2 (KJV)
The same was in the beginning with God.

God envisaged Himself in the plan as Jesus Christ from eternity.

John 1:3 (KJV)
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The creation of everything: the earth, the galaxies, the heavens, the creatures, etc, were done as part of His plan, to contribute to the realization of the main purpose of the plan - Salvation through God.

John 1:14 (KJV)
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...

The plan was for God to become flesh, and to live, and be raised among human.
*
A classic case of eisegesis. (reading yourself into the the text)

Stop putting your own theology into the text.
Haledoch
post Aug 28 2018, 09:45 AM

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QUOTE(unknown warrior @ Aug 27 2018, 01:42 PM)
Those verses shows the Triune part, then there are also the distinct part, for example when Christ cried to Father God at the cross. If they are one and the same, meaning no distinction, Christ shouldn't be crying "My God My God, why have you forsaken me".

He can't be forsaking himself, doesn't make any sense then.
*
Jesus was fully human with a will of his own, yet at the same time submitted himself to the will of His father.

Fully Man, yet fully God as well. I hope that can make it enough for you to understand. Explaining it outside of this makes God less omnipresence. God is Spirit is everywhere, that even the flesh of Jesus cannot contain God, yet Jesus was the very representative of God. Jesus was like God's own mirror which men can see and touch.

This post has been edited by Haledoch: Aug 28 2018, 09:45 AM
Haledoch
post Aug 28 2018, 09:46 AM

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QUOTE(thomasthai @ Aug 28 2018, 09:08 AM)
A classic case of eisegesis. (reading yourself into the the text)

Stop putting your own theology into the text.
*
Contemptuous to the truth? Understandable. That was why Jesus spoke in parables, in order for some to remain blind.
unknown warrior
post Aug 28 2018, 09:53 AM

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QUOTE(Haledoch @ Aug 28 2018, 09:45 AM)
Jesus was fully human with a will of his own, yet at the same time submitted himself to the will of His father.

Fully Man, yet fully God as well. I hope that can make it enough for you to understand. Explaining it outside of this makes God less omnipresence. God is Spirit is everywhere, that even the flesh of Jesus cannot contain God, yet Jesus was the very representative of God. Jesus was like God's own mirror which men can see and touch.
*
Hey Bro..if Jesus submitted himself to the will of His father, that means there is distinction. hence Trinity is a possibility only God can exhibit.
thomasthai
post Aug 28 2018, 09:53 AM

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QUOTE(Haledoch @ Aug 28 2018, 09:46 AM)
Contemptuous to the truth? Understandable. That was why Jesus spoke in parables, in order for some to remain blind.
*
Likewise rolleyes.gif

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