Believe what I read (even if I don't understand them),
instead of read what I believe,
that's the fear of the Lord,
and that's the beginning of understanding (wisdom).

- John Bevere

The truth is in the Bible. There is no other worldly sources which you can be 100% sure is correct. For me all denominations are wrong in one way or another. Even myself and my own reasoning I don't trust at all. Dont trust anybody completely, particularly preachers, reserve some doubts.

But if I am not mistaken your view on the doctrine of Salvation and David Pawson's view is quite different. He doesn't believe in OSAS, and he talk about works for salvation. Well, I also have doubt in the OSAS or the Preserverence of the Saints now. I dunno.

I cannot dismiss the OSAS doctrine entirely even if I have doubt on it because it IS supported with Scriptural verses. Unless we can interpret differently on those verses, rejecting OSAS means rejecting part of the Bible itself.

For example, in Romans 8:30. But of course Ezek 18:24 is very clear to me as well. So I am on the fence currently.

It is only faith. Faith requires nothing to prove it is true. Is there any scripture verse to support that faith can be fake?

Do we need to work to prove anything that we believe in? Do I need to work to prove that my belief in gravity is real?

Let's study Judas. He received the same faith as with the other Apostles. It cannot be that God rejected Judas because he was more "evil" compared to the other disciples. That would make God an unjust God. All the other disciples were also sinners like Judas to begin with. So what makes him a failure?

Is it because he failed in obedience? No I don't think so. He was as ignorant as Peter, the sons of Zebedee, and the rest.

When I think on this I started to realize there was something in Judas that the other disciples did not have. Judas had an idol in his heart. He loved his money. An idol can be anything that we are obsessed with apart from God. It can be sport, relationship, money, politics, donald trump, television, anime, porn, position, appearance, power, car, house, mobile games, etc... The same example can be found in the rich, young ruler story. The rich man was not rejected by Jesus because he was obeying the works salvation, it was because he had an idol in his heart.

Faith causes us to wanting to do works. Faith doesn't need work to prove it's real. Faith stands alone. Faith is the cause, work is the effect. And there is another characteristic of faith:

It is fragile. Faith degrades over time. Faith is like a plant that needs constant attentions and nourishment. It can easily be choked by external influences of this world. Those idols which can easily entertain us and that we usually look forward to indulge in our spare time instead of spending time alone with God...

John Piper may be able to explain to you well enough in his article

https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/what-is-idolatry

I don't know how well to explain this, but of course we can enjoy other worldly stuffs just like any normal human.. Only as much as I can I just want to create a feeling of separation with this worldly stuffs, like when I eat KFC and I like it alright but at the same moment my mind will keep wandering back into the things related to God.

Read how Enoch walk with God everyday. He lived like a normal man, but his focus was always on God. I dunno whether my way is correct or not, but I have been in a time when God was a distant memory, I busied myself with worldly stuffs and end up suffering a lot. Perhaps God chastised me for not walking the christian life the right way.

Faith doesn't demand anything. Faith doesn't coerce, doesn't obligates, doesn't force, doesn't threaten - a person to do any work. Faith simply creates a desire, or a suggestion, that a person should do the right work. But our flesh also does the same thing. Often times, when faith suggest something that we should do, our flesh will suggest an opposing work. So we are always left with two choices, to follow the desire of faith or to follow the desire of flesh.

For example, when I see a man lying injured on a remote road, my faith will suggest me to help that man. But at the same time my flesh will also tell me to run away because my flesh will often provides a supporting logic as to why I should run away. Maybe that man is faking it, or maybe he is a bait, and there are some bandits hiding and waiting to ambush me while I am helping the man.

So this is the common battle between faith vs flesh in our conscience throughout our daily activities.

Most christians like me are more incline to follow the flesh rather than faith. If I am able to reach 100% obedience to faith, and 0% obedience to flesh, then I can say that I have killed the flesh, that I have murdered the flesh, just like what Paul said. And I live in the Spirit, through faith alone, because my faith is strong and ALIVE and not dead as James explain it clearly in his book. So we should always "work out" (or exercise) our faith, because if we don't, our faith will eventually become dead as it will always going to lose to the flesh if we have no bias towards it.

No, if Abraham just believed without acting, Ishamael would not have been born. And because Abraham added work to his faith (by sleeping with Hagar), which was a mistake, the Arabs were born.

When we think that faith demands action, we start to plan action that we consider or reason it as good to God. This is not necessarily true. What we consider as good work might not be considered good by God. Eve thought that eating the fruit of knowledge was good, but her reasoning was flawed, and so does all of us who thought we know what is considered good work.

This post has been edited by Haledoch: Jul 27 2018, 03:09 PM

His action was born out of flesh, but initiated by his faith. If by flesh alone he would have slept with Hagar way before God made the promise.

Doesn't matter if Sarah was the planner. Abraham went along, means he thought it was God's plan. He thought he was doing the will of God, and so he happily added work to his faith.

Yes, he would say no if God never promised him a son. Abraham was that righteous. An almost perfect human being.

This guy is teaching how to identify the doctrines of demons while at the same time he is also teaching the same doctrine of demon.

He conveniently ignored what Jesus said in,

Matthew 15
11 What goes into someone's mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them.

So I am assuming you understand fully what you preach. Here is my question, do you think Jesus is a demanding God?

And, if I may ask another question, say we want to apply your theory in practical situations, what actions that a christian MUST DO for his faith?

I will humbly admit my knowledge regarding faith and action is quite limited. So I am learning right now as I ask.

In your faith demands action theory, what kind of action are you talking here? Man's work or God's work?

In John 15
5 I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

Clearly Jesus said we cannot do any action without God. Basically it is God who is responsible for the action. Why do we want to take credit and strip God of His Glory by saying it is our action? God made the promise to Abraham that He would create Isaac, there was no condition from Him that He would fail if Abraham did not do anything. Even without men's contribution, God's Grace will still work.

So why then do you want to insist that Faith demands work, which can be elaborated as Faith demands God's work? Is it not like turning God into our servant?

What about Romans 4
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

That verse doesn't speak of Faith demands action, but rather Faith demands Trust. Yes, Jesus is a demanding God. But what He demands is not of our works, but us to trust Him, to lean on Him, and to let Him do the Work. It is never about our own work at all.

Think about this,

If a crippled, poor man seeks God, do you think God demands work from this man?

In God's eyes we are all crippled. Because of our imperfections, nothing of our own works can ever measure up to him. They are just pathetically ugly rags. We can only perform well if He anointed us with His Grace, when and where is His decision alone. If He says you stay and don't do nothing, then you are to stay and don't do nothing, unless God anointed some of us for some mission immposibles, we are not to take any action on our own just because we have faith.

Yes. Do you see God's works behind his efforts or do you only see his own strength? To me he is anointed, and I am amazed that God's Grace can even enable a person like him. He is the shining light that points to God, giving glory to Him. Apart from God, this man cannot do anything.

I am not advocating actionless christian. We need to work when it comes to striving not to sin, obedience to the Laws, and most importantly to work out the Love that God graciously gives us.

With that being said I would also like to show this verse that speaks of faith + work,

Matthew 7
22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?

.. which speaks of christians, having faith (when they called Lord), and also they have works "to prove" their faith (when they said 'we did this, we did that, and we did this and that').

One thing in common in all of them is that they love to point out "their works". They are leaning on works, and the good works become their idol.

Obedience to the Laws to me sounds allright. Not the ritual laws ofc (Sabbath, eating pigs, circumcision, water baptism, tithing?, etc). But of the laws that say don't do sins.

Can you give a practical example so it is easy to understand?

Are we not? What are you saying here that man and God become one? A relationship requires the existence of both distinct entities, and there are always a constant communication between us and God. Or have I mis-interpreted you? This is the verse where I make that conclusion,

Proverbs 16
9 In their hearts humans plan their course, but the LORD establishes their steps.

For me it is not work that prove a sincere faith. Rather it is a decision we make to trust God over our own common sense and rationality - that prove real faith. And James never said work is for proving faith. It is done so faith is not going to die.

A good story from Charles Blondin ilustrated this true faith.

Blondin's greatest fame came on September 14, 1860, when he became the first person to cross a tightrope stretched 11,000 feet (over a quarter of a mile) across the mighty Niagara Falls. People from both Canada and America came from miles away to see this great feat.

He walked across, 160 feet above the falls, several times... each time with a different daring feat - once in a sack, on stilts, on a bicycle, in the dark, and blindfolded. One time he even carried a stove and cooked an omelet in the middle of the rope!

A large crowd gathered and the buzz of excitement ran along both sides of the river bank. The crowd “Oohed and Aahed!” as Blondin carefully walked across - one dangerous step after another - pushing a wheelbarrow holding a sack of potatoes.

Then a one point, he asked for the participation of a volunteer. Upon reaching the other side, the crowd's applause was louder than the roar of the falls!

Blondin suddenly stopped and addressed his audience: "Do you believe I can carry a person across in this wheelbarrow?"

The crowd enthusiastically yelled, "Yes! You are the greatest tightrope walker in the world. We believe!"

"Okay," said Blondin, "Who wants to get into the wheelbarrow."

No one did.

God disagrees with you in Deu 30:11 (ESV)

"For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off."

And also God encourages us to practice the laws in Mat 5:19 (KJV)

"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Well, I really cannot comment on this. Maybe you are right, or wrong. I dunno. But one word that come to my mind when you speak of situations like these, is being inspired. A man inspired by God can do anything.

Also I want to comment something about this trinity doctrine. I have doubt over it and I cannot accept John Calvin who was a defender of this doctrine had killed a brother in Christ (Servetus) just to defend this doctrine. God would never spread his true gospel through murders and killings of innocent people. So now I lean towards believing that Jesus is also the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, as one true God. There is no distinct persons in there, just one true God.

The story of John Blondin was only meant to describe what is true faith. And that is true faith is to always ready to discard everything we possess, even our own life for the sake of Christ. Is this blind faith according to you? Hebrew 11:1 said Faith is to believe, to have confidence and hope in something unproven, or unseen, or blind. You should put Hebrew 11:1 in your heart and not make any other different explanation of faith outside of it.

I think you do not understand well what is the meaning to live in the Spirit. The Spirit of God will teaches us about the Laws, and how to obey the Laws. That is one main reason why God imputed us with his Spirit, so that we can walk in His Righteousness just like Jesus, according to the Laws. So that we can overcome the temptation to sin with the help of the Spirit. You cannot be a good citizen to this country if you do not obey the laws of this country. Similarly, you cannot be a good citizen of God if you refuse to obey the Laws of God while plunging headfirst into all kinds of abominations and still think you are clean.

Another error in your thinking is that OT and NT are two separate gospels. Not at all. The NT laws are FAR MORE STRICTER than OT. Remember what Jesus declared in,

Matthew 5
27 You have heard that it was said, You shall not commit adultery. But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

You should read the history of John Calvin and Michael Servetus. You should also read the concept of Modalism with an open mind. Jewish people do not believe in trinity. All the Apostles did not believe in trinity. David, Samuel, Enoch, Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, and all the true righteuos people in the Scriptures did not believe in the trinity. And all the earliest true churches did not believe in that. The trinity doctrine is a false doctrine. It is made by the devil to confuse people that God can be three gods. No matter how we want to describe it using complex linguistic terms to make it true, deep within our heart we always begin to think that God is three Gods.

Besides in Mark 12:32-34, Jesus did not correct the scribe when the scribe said God is only one. In fact Jesus replied back to him, "..you have answered wisely, and you are not far from the kingdom of God".

The trinity doctrine is tainted with the blood of an innocent christian and his name is Michael Servetus. That alone is proof enough of its falseness.