[V31] Lowyat.Net Mechanical Keyboard Club
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 Jun 4 2020, 10:39 AM
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#2401
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Senior Member
1,275 posts Joined: Jun 2012 
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QUOTE(horns @ Jun 4 2020, 09:48 AM) » Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «  Good to know about different springs in stock switches. I was surprised by this recently as well. My first MKB(Cherry brown), when I lubed them, had all the same dull gray springs like the colour of pipes. The recent MKB (Cherry RGB brown) that I lubed and spring swapped had 2 different springs. Slightly different colour and slightly different length. 
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Jun 4 2020, 12:11 PM
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Senior Member
3,038 posts Joined: Nov 2009
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QUOTE(niakulah @ Jun 4 2020, 10:39 AM) Very helpful. Thanks. Just that that is just more poison. Lol. hahaha!Good to know about different springs in stock switches. I was surprised by this recently as well. My first MKB(Cherry brown), when I lubed them, had all the same dull gray springs like the colour of pipes. The recent MKB (Cherry RGB brown) that I lubed and spring swapped had 2 different springs. Slightly different colour and slightly different length.
yes, it's a cold hard truth. you're correct, some newer cherry mx have that. to be fair, their variations are still relatively acceptable. the main point is this: cherry is very well established in terms of qc, and their products are in the market longer than the rest of their competitions, yet we still can find things like this to happen. that's why i am skeptical about those new, untested hyped switches, made by smaller makers, although they're very well received, for whatever reasons hehe edit: like anything else, this is just part of our choices and preferences. this little experiment alone took me months because i did it organically, on the same modular board first, then migrated them into soldered builds. to me, it's conclusive. This post has been edited by horns: Jun 4 2020, 12:33 PM |
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Jun 4 2020, 03:07 PM
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Junior Member
219 posts Joined: Oct 2013 From: Shah Alam  
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QUOTE(horns @ Jun 4 2020, 09:48 AM) lol i will try explain: i started hand-pick my switches for a particular build after i found out stock switches do have different BOM, especially springs, e.g., there are two different stock springs in gateron white 67g that i have. one is shorter with lesser coils; another is longer, with more coils. to eliminate potential inconsistency due to springs, i just choose one of them for the same build. (this is also why it's better to get more switches than you need for a build). alternatively, i can just grab a bag of custom springs, and replace them all together. so i decided to do a little experiment. understood. but what is BOM? Bottom Out Mass? i started with stock switches with stock springs; then i tried chinese-made springs; and finally branded custom springs. i chose 65g, with gateron yellow stock springs as reference. they are all linear-rated springs. the key observations from this experiment are as follows: 1. the differences between the first two (stock vs. chinese-made custom springs) are mainly related to weight. chinese-made custom springs are similar to stock springs ('hard' in nature, pingy; the 'hardness' in feel, i believe, is mainly due to the characteristics of spring materials and similar designs). to me, they feel the same, but chinese-made custom springs provide a wider range of weights to cater for our needs, hence they got the weight part covered. also, for chinese-made custom springs, inconsistency in spring weight happens more often; 2. when i went for branded custom springs, the scope to cover have changed. on top of spring weight, they have unique spring designs and innovations that can change switch feels and sound further; the consistency in spring weight is covered too. you will definitely feel the obvious differences between a build of gateron yellow with stock springs, one with chinese-made 65g, and one with tx 65g. (the first two are harder to differentiate, at least to me) edit: honestly, the more you go into details, the more you will find out about shitty stuff like this. as consumer, we expect manufacturers deliver according to specs. unfortunately, it's really not the case. on a greater scheme of things, most people will treat this as insignificant deviations. it's ok because we all still survive hehe (let's embrace these perfect imperfections  ) the more we go into details, the more we find out shitty stuff, the more we wanting to custom hence custom kibods. i understood all these once i start reading n observing custom mods. ppl do it to eliminate the shitty stuff. even custom dont give out all these details bcoz if it is also included on top of all the customization of materials, the pricing will go even more absurd. anyway thanks for the explanation. as my wallet is thin, ill just live with prebuilts as of now. still much better than once using membrane.  |
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Jun 4 2020, 04:14 PM
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VIP
3,815 posts Joined: Jan 2003 From: Kuala Lumpur  
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QUOTE(irsyadfy @ Jun 4 2020, 03:07 PM) understood. but what is BOM? Bottom Out Mass? Build of Material. A bit of an industrial/specific term. |
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Jun 4 2020, 04:16 PM
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VIP
3,815 posts Joined: Jan 2003 From: Kuala Lumpur
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QUOTE(irsyadfy @ Jun 4 2020, 03:07 PM) the more we go into details, the more we find out shitty stuff, the more we wanting to custom hence custom kibods. I do sometimes wish more people spend some time to understand "the need to build a custom" like you do. That's exactly the reason for going custom, to go into specifics into each and every detail, of course the price will balloon, but if someone "just needs a mechanical keyboard" and thinks that going for a custom build is cheaper than buying a pre-build, that's the wrong mindset. Often than not, customs would cost equal, if not most of the time, MORE, due to all the work done that can't exactly be done without going custom. Like lubing the switches first, specific plates and foam under plate, etc. Stab tuning is possibly still easy to do on a pre-build since it's only like 5-8 switches to desolder.i understood all these once i start reading n observing custom mods. ppl do it to eliminate the shitty stuff. even custom dont give out all these details bcoz if it is also included on top of all the customization of materials, the pricing will go even more absurd. |
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Jun 4 2020, 07:34 PM
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Junior Member
219 posts Joined: Oct 2013 From: Shah Alam
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QUOTE(GRexer @ Jun 4 2020, 04:14 PM) Build of Material. A bit of an industrial/specific term. ahh something new i learn today. very BOMbastic word.  QUOTE(GRexer @ Jun 4 2020, 04:16 PM) I do sometimes wish more people spend some time to understand "the need to build a custom" like you do. That's exactly the reason for going custom, to go into specifics into each and every detail, of course the price will balloon, but if someone "just needs a mechanical keyboard" and thinks that going for a custom build is cheaper than buying a pre-build, that's the wrong mindset. Often than not, customs would cost equal, if not most of the time, MORE, due to all the work done that can't exactly be done without going custom. Like lubing the switches first, specific plates and foam under plate, etc. Stab tuning is possibly still easy to do on a pre-build since it's only like 5-8 switches to desolder. but to compare a custom that is the same price as a prebuilt. custom is nicer as u can built from ground up. just takes more time. got pros and cons for each as in everything in life. lul i think they are a lot that understand like me. just they have the funding so senyap2 do and experiment. meanwhile, i need to ask for ppl experience to learn better. hence i ask a lot. i still remember when i mocked our dearest mr horns when he ask what he can do to custom his corsair kibod. now he is much more advance than me and now im learning much from him. |
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Jun 4 2020, 09:23 PM
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Senior Member
3,038 posts Joined: Nov 2009
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QUOTE(irsyadfy @ Jun 4 2020, 03:07 PM) understood. but what is BOM? Bottom Out Mass? BOM is bill of materials, i.e. parts and components needed to make a product. e.g., a mechanical switch consists of switch top, bottom housing, spring, slider, contact leaf, and lube that they apply at factory (usually very lightly). the more we go into details, the more we find out shitty stuff, the more we wanting to custom hence custom kibods. i understood all these once i start reading n observing custom mods. ppl do it to eliminate the shitty stuff. even custom dont give out all these details bcoz if it is also included on top of all the customization of materials, the pricing will go even more absurd. anyway thanks for the explanation. as my wallet is thin, ill just live with prebuilts as of now. still much better than once using membrane. imo the true aim for mkb modding is to make mkb much better for typing experience. there are many ways to achieve this, from mods with prebuilts, assembly of parts from scratch, to hand wiring stuff. it's really up to the person's preferences and skill sets. note that mods with prebuilts doesn't include adding anti-slip mat between pcb and bottom case, or replacing key caps. i agree that wallet has something to do with this hobby (like everything else), but imo it's really more about time and efforts. during previous meetups, we have experienced some good work done by our friends on affordable prebuilts. (e.g., modular boards like tecware phantom and gk series) we all know how bad they are at stock. even though they have physical limitations, they are impressively better after all the efforts. cost wise, it's really not that bad. as for custom kits, it might be a different story. however, with a bit of planning, it can be done at relatively cheaper costs. custom kits offer even more flexibility in part options, layouts, etc. in case you didn't notice, the actual costs to build my tray-mount reference builds are relatively low. (of course, depending on parts that i use) no comment on hand wiring stuff. i don't wanna go there hehe QUOTE(irsyadfy @ Jun 4 2020, 07:34 PM) ahh something new i learn today. right. still remember our meetups? haha!very BOMbastic word. but to compare a custom that is the same price as a prebuilt. custom is nicer as u can built from ground up. just takes more time. got pros and cons for each as in everything in life. lul i think they are a lot that understand like me. just they have the funding so senyap2 do and experiment. meanwhile, i need to ask for ppl experience to learn better. hence i ask a lot. i still remember when i mocked our dearest mr horns when he ask what he can do to custom his corsair kibod. now he is much more advance than me and now im learning much from him. we are learning together. i will never be 'kedekut' sharing my know-hows and experiences related to mkb modding with you guys. (mainly for linear switches, entry-level and mid-tier kits, and stuff that i think good) |
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Jun 4 2020, 10:44 PM
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Junior Member
219 posts Joined: Oct 2013 From: Shah Alam
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QUOTE(horns @ Jun 4 2020, 09:23 PM) BOM is bill of materials, i.e. parts and components needed to make a product. e.g., a mechanical switch consists of switch top, bottom housing, spring, slider, contact leaf, and lube that they apply at factory (usually very lightly). ya lor, cost = mostly depends on the parts we chose. i can understand why alu boards are expensive is bcoz the alu itself and manufacturing process are expensive. not to include the branding/hype/reputation of brand that plays a role too.imo the true aim for mkb modding is to make mkb much better for typing experience. there are many ways to achieve this, from mods with prebuilts, assembly of parts from scratch, to hand wiring stuff. it's really up to the person's preferences and skill sets. note that mods with prebuilts doesn't include adding anti-slip mat between pcb and bottom case, or replacing key caps. i agree that wallet has something to do with this hobby (like everything else), but imo it's really more about time and efforts. during previous meetups, we have experienced some good work done by our friends on affordable prebuilts. (e.g., modular boards like tecware phantom and gk series) we all know how bad they are at stock. even though they have physical limitations, they are impressively better after all the efforts. cost wise, it's really not that bad. as for custom kits, it might be a different story. however, with a bit of planning, it can be done at relatively cheaper costs. custom kits offer even more flexibility in part options, layouts, etc. in case you didn't notice, the actual costs to build my tray-mount reference builds are relatively low. (of course, depending on parts that i use) no comment on hand wiring stuff. i don't wanna go there hehe right. still remember our meetups? haha! we are learning together. i will never be 'kedekut' sharing my know-hows and experiences related to mkb modding with you guys. (mainly for linear switches, entry-level and mid-tier kits, and stuff that i think good) i once read from mr david lee(forgot if he is here or not), if there is a pcb for it, kinda waste time handwiring, unless u really wanna try hand wiring. more hassling, but its an experience. yep remembered. thanks for the coffee bean. lul |
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Jun 5 2020, 01:13 AM
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Senior Member
3,038 posts Joined: Nov 2009
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QUOTE(irsyadfy @ Jun 4 2020, 10:44 PM) ya lor, cost = mostly depends on the parts we chose. i can understand why alu boards are expensive is bcoz the alu itself and manufacturing process are expensive. not to include the branding/hype/reputation of brand that plays a role too. lol!i once read from mr david lee(forgot if he is here or not), if there is a pcb for it, kinda waste time handwiring, unless u really wanna try hand wiring. more hassling, but its an experience. yep remembered. thanks for the coffee bean. lul right, what david said is true. if there is a pcb with the right stuff, just use it. unless you really wanna experience hand wiring. as for parts, it's subjective. however it really needs a plan, starting with form factor, keyboard construction, and a layout that you're comfortable with. i chose 60% tray-mount, 2u-shift 64-key layout, because 60% has the most complete selection of parts, e.g., cases and plate types (aluminum, steel, polycarb, carbon fiber, brass; with plate-mount or pcb-mount costar/cherry stabilizer supports; with switch top removal support; for brass, recently melgeek also offers mojo61/64 with 3mm- and 4mm-thick options) additionally, i can also do plateless. basically i can try out almost all possible combos with 60% tray-mount soldered builds. i mainly use two qmk-based pcbs for my builds: dz60 and yd60mq. yd60mq has become my main choice because it has a version without under-glow led, and none of my cases support under-glow. the above is a long-term plan. i collect parts progressively as i go. everything man man. man man. man man. eventually i will get to my target |
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Jun 5 2020, 09:52 AM
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Junior Member
316 posts Joined: Sep 2007 From: Kuala Lumpur
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do you all know where i can find bottom case of a switch? Not sure what the right keyword to find in taobao. I am looking for transparent one because a lot of my switches is blocking kb's led light.
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Jun 5 2020, 11:49 AM
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Senior Member
3,038 posts Joined: Nov 2009
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QUOTE(Candlenie @ Jun 5 2020, 09:52 AM) do you all know where i can find bottom case of a switch? Not sure what the right keyword to find in taobao. I am looking for transparent one because a lot of my switches is blocking kb's led light. not sure. sellers do sell switch tops, but not bottom housings. usually we just get the whole switch and modify from there. this is to make sure the material of which the housing is made, and the contact leaf are what we need, and not from unknown sources. |
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Jun 5 2020, 05:16 PM
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#2412
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Probation
0 posts Joined: Jan 2020
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I joined in on the GB for the TX springs for some 67g springs to put into gat yellows and also got some Krytox 105 to lube them with, just wondering how much oil is recommended to bag lube ~87 springs
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Jun 5 2020, 06:42 PM
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#2413
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Senior Member
1,275 posts Joined: Jun 2012
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QUOTE(Lybrary @ Jun 5 2020, 05:16 PM) I joined in on the GB for the TX springs for some 67g springs to put into gat yellows and also got some Krytox 105 to lube them with, just wondering how much oil is recommended to bag lube ~87 springs 2ml is more than enough. |
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Jun 5 2020, 08:34 PM
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#2414
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Probation
0 posts Joined: Jan 2020
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QUOTE(niakulah @ Jun 5 2020, 06:42 PM) 2ml is more than enough. Ohh I see thanks. I got a little extra just in case I ever need more in the future. Also wondering if anyone here has any experience using a Krytox 105 + 205 mix to lube switches and if it has any substantial difference in feel to just using 205g0 |
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Jun 5 2020, 09:03 PM
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Senior Member
3,038 posts Joined: Nov 2009
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QUOTE(Lybrary @ Jun 5 2020, 08:34 PM) Ohh I see thanks. I got a little extra just in case I ever need more in the future. Also wondering if anyone here has any experience using a Krytox 105 + 205 mix to lube switches and if it has any substantial difference in feel to just using 205g0 205g0 is mainly for easier application, i.e., making the lube to spread easier and stick better on surfaces. other than that it's just like 105. (they are the same; just different in oil and grease forms) |
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Jun 5 2020, 11:29 PM
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Junior Member
316 posts Joined: Sep 2007 From: Kuala Lumpur
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QUOTE(horns @ Jun 5 2020, 11:49 AM) not sure. sellers do sell switch tops, but not bottom housings. hmm...is there any decently priced switch with transparent btm housing with decent contact leaf? I was testing out aliaz from kbdfans recently and the quality was superb, as well as the transparent case makes my backlight way nicer usually we just get the whole switch and modify from there. this is to make sure the material of which the housing is made, and the contact leaf are what we need, and not from unknown sources. |
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Jun 5 2020, 11:46 PM
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VIP
3,815 posts Joined: Jan 2003 From: Kuala Lumpur
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QUOTE(Candlenie @ Jun 5 2020, 11:29 PM) hmm...is there any decently priced switch with transparent btm housing with decent contact leaf? I was testing out aliaz from kbdfans recently and the quality was superb, as well as the transparent case makes my backlight way nicer In a way, I'm still finding for that holy grail too.   |
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Jun 6 2020, 01:16 AM
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#2418
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Senior Member
1,432 posts Joined: Aug 2010 From: Ipoh mali~~~
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QUOTE(GRexer @ Jun 5 2020, 11:46 PM) In a way, I'm still finding for that holy grail too. RGB is life yo |
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Jun 6 2020, 02:01 AM
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Senior Member
3,038 posts Joined: Nov 2009
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QUOTE(Candlenie @ Jun 5 2020, 11:29 PM) hmm...is there any decently priced switch with transparent btm housing with decent contact leaf? I was testing out aliaz from kbdfans recently and the quality was superb, as well as the transparent case makes my backlight way nicer for switches with clear (PC) housings, the price is roughly 2myr or more per switch. well, it's still cheaper than aliaz haha |
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Jun 6 2020, 12:07 PM
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#2420
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Senior Member
1,275 posts Joined: Jun 2012
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QUOTE(Candlenie @ Jun 5 2020, 11:29 PM) hmm...is there any decently priced switch with transparent btm housing with decent contact leaf? I was testing out aliaz from kbdfans recently and the quality was superb, as well as the transparent case makes my backlight way nicer Aliaz looks great but sound is lacking. Last week I just ordered 30pcs of Outemu Sky, which has a green nylon bottom with SMD cutout. And also 30 pcs of transparent polycarbonate Outemu top cases. Hoping to get best of both worlds.Will replace my 80g Aliaz I currently have on my XD24 cospad and see. |
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