oh! they moved this here.........

  wonder if this thread might get more exposure under Serious Kopitiam. well......admins decide.........

   
    how ironic to see the Atheist & Agnostics thread sitting side by side 

  pains me to read the thread over thr & some questions that go through my mind while reading those posts :

  - God draws to Him whom he wills
  - hardening of the heart
  - the chosen ones
  - they think we are brainwashed while on the other hand, we think they're not enlightened & lost   

    lets discuss...........

Thank for the advise.

i know we are just human and we make mistakes. But the thing here is, pastors are now using this "FOCUS ON GOD, NOT ON US"...credo to justify their actions and to continue with structural flaws at church.

Its just another way of saying "we are not bothered to improve ourselves, overcome any weaknesses we encounter whether its a political or organisation problem".

Just like the example of my friend who is a buil;ding committee at a big church. He grown disillusion with the leadership when they pound him with this credo.."we are not perfect, we should not fight, we should be peacemakers, we should focus on god".

then it became very clear the church was abusing funds to build a monolith building that they don't really need. Waste of funds ! Mismanagement. Luckily he left the church to another church, rather than to be a complete zombie follower.

There is another church in cheras, where they got over 50 young adults...but the leader rich businessman there, controls it with an iron fist with his 12 brainwashed followers. People go there, to serve serve and serve - no happiness and joy out of that. If some new guy came and wanted to just have a nice conversation, they just not layan him, want to play politics. The leader there say this is not a social club...of course not lah, but why make the whole place so unpleasant, and they usually will target those they don't like, be unfriendly to force that person out by attrition.

come on lah, even to serve also..cannot laugh meh? i am sure god want you all to enjoy what you doing mah...if like what unknown warrior say he joy in his suffering, why don't bring a bed of nails to go to church to worship...then sit on it, and sing song...more joy meh?

thought that your bible say the house of god is for everybody...and based on what i heard from friends who spoke about jesus helping the lame, poor, the troubled people, isn't christianity is about kindness and care for everybody?

not being wicked and mistreat others that you don't like.

when i was first invited with some people into that church, i knoew something was wrong, i had a hunch...after two meetings i never came back because first me no christian but second they are the most unfriendliest SOB and arrogant ones i ever met.

they speak of pharisees, but they act like one.

and another favourite weapon they like to use is to say that people who criticize people are ones who are "hurt" by them...but for me, i only there for two meetings...how can this be?

they just wanna say stuff like that to slander the people who bring out truths about them. They try to label people who speak up as troublemakers.

its their favourite weapon.

i am not saying and i hope not all churches are like that. But i am sure christians will continue to improve themselves, and not try to use the word to deflect their flaws. I am also not saying all christians are like that..but i have met some really nasty ones.

i met one christian in my office, he thinks he is always right because he is a chrsitian and he thinks god is backing all his actions at all times.

but when i see him make errors in his work, he tend to hide them...not admitting them, use the excuse focus on god not on me...and he thinks he is right all the time.

i heard in his church got one christian girl that like him, she join his cell group when he is the cg leader...btw this guy is 35 years old. i made a joke one day, about this girl..and he straight away bad mouthed her. He hate her so much that he wished she disappeard from the face of the earth. He got his whole cg to ignore her and mistreat her..until she gave up going to cg.

Wtf? He preach good news and profess love for people, but he treat this girl like shiit. Not only that, he think he is very high standard. I make jokes with him about this girl and that girl, he say all ugly. Then he pointed out which girl he liked, when i saw their picture...walao, i knew his standard very high.

but he should look at himself in the mirror...he is bald guy not handsome, he dont' accept other people opinion, to him ah, when he say something he want people to listen to him. When girl like him, he go and reject her badly.

this kind of guy ah, when he meets some girl he likes, very sure karma will come back to him.

i know we are just human and we make mistakes. But the thing here is, pastors are now using this "FOCUS ON GOD, NOT ON US"...credo to justify their actions and to continue with structural flaws at church.

Its just another way of saying "we are not bothered to improve ourselves, overcome any weaknesses we encounter whether its a political or organisation problem".

Just like the example of my friend who is a buil;ding committee at a big church. He grown disillusion with the leadership when they pound him with this credo.."we are not perfect, we should not fight, we should be peacemakers, we should focus on god".

then it became very clear the church was abusing funds to build a monolith building that they don't really need. Waste of funds ! Mismanagement. Luckily he left the church to another church, rather than to be a complete zombie follower.

There is another church in cheras, where they got over 50 young adults...but the leader rich businessman there, controls it with an iron fist with his 12 brainwashed followers. People go there, to serve serve and serve - no happiness and joy out of that. If some new guy came and wanted to just have a nice conversation, they just not layan him, want to play politics. The leader there say this is not a social club...of course not lah, but why make the whole place so unpleasant, and they usually will target those they don't like, be unfriendly to force that person out by attrition.

come on lah, even to serve also..cannot laugh meh? i am sure god want you all to enjoy what you doing mah...if like what unknown warrior say he joy in his suffering, why don't bring a bed of nails to go to church to worship...then sit on it, and sing song...more joy meh?

thought that your bible say the house of god is for everybody...and based on what i heard from friends who spoke about jesus helping the lame, poor, the troubled people, isn't christianity is about kindness and care for everybody?

not being wicked and mistreat others that you don't like.

when i was first invited with some people into that church, i knoew something was wrong, i had a hunch...after two meetings i never came back because first me no christian but second they are the most unfriendliest SOB and arrogant ones i ever met.

they speak of pharisees, but they act like one.

and another favourite weapon they like to use is to say that people who criticize people are ones who are "hurt" by them...but for me, i only there for two meetings...how can this be?

they just wanna say stuff like that to slander the people who bring out truths about them. They try to label people who speak up as troublemakers.

its their favourite weapon.

i am not saying and i hope not all churches are like that. But i am sure christians will continue to improve themselves, and not try to use the word to deflect their flaws. I am also not saying all christians are like that..but i have met some really nasty ones.

i met one christian in my office, he thinks he is always right because he is a chrsitian and he thinks god is backing all his actions at all times.

but when i see him make errors in his work, he tend to hide them...not admitting them, use the excuse focus on god not on me...and he thinks he is right all the time.

i heard in his church got one christian girl that like him, she join his cell group when he is the cg leader...btw this guy is 35 years old. i made a joke one day, about this girl..and he straight away bad mouthed her. He hate her so much that he wished she disappeard from the face of the earth. He got his whole cg to ignore her and mistreat her..until she gave up going to cg.

Wtf? He preach good news and profess love for people, but he treat this girl like shiit. Not only that, he think he is very high standard. I make jokes with him about this girl and that girl, he say all ugly. Then he pointed out which girl he liked, when i saw their picture...walao, i knew his standard very high.

but he should look at himself in the mirror...he is bald guy not handsome, he dont' accept other people opinion, to him ah, when he say something he want people to listen to him. When girl like him, he go and reject her badly.

this kind of guy ah, when he meets some girl he likes, very sure karma will come back to him.

yeah that is the point. When you say "we focus on ourselves to make good deeds to close ranks over those who made the mistakes and not admit their mistakes"...that should be the spirit.

that would be the efforts that the christiian want to portray to show to the non christians that they are serious in improving ties and structural defects in their church. When one leader makes serious mistakes, others will close ranks and improve on that area.

i mean i always hear the christians complain about lack of religious freedom and about other pressure groups, but seriously when they look into their own churches, the way they handle things, its no different from those pressure groups.

when somebody brings up an issue, suddenly the person in the church becomes ex communicated and labeled as a troublemaker. no different then how those pressure groups are blaming christians for their problems.

christians always complain about persecution but at the same time laud persecution as a way to improve themselves under pressure...always using the term "refined by fire". But when persecution come, they complain complain, when i go to gym, i always notice the church near my gym, the members driving mercedes, bentleys and bmws...into the car park, enjoying such rich blessings. Wow, these days the christians of today enjoy such excellent lifes (in Malaysia) while their counterparts brethren in Iraq, Nigeria, Sudan, India (Dalits) face daily persecutions. Maybe the churches in msia has become too complacent and too wealthy to notice any self problem until they got too much free time that they start to play politics in their own backyard.

as a result we meet many over defensive and lack of self esteem christians that a little bit of comment (like Brusky)...they try to squeeze out the person and label him/her as troublemaker rather than make serious changes.

i thought the christians always laud when kena slap on the right cheek, offer the left side...but nowadays, you accidentaly say something, tthe christians come back in a tank to attack back...

gosh, that is a blast from the time when christians say their jesus used to help the poor, lame and handicap.

nowadays, the christians laugh at people with problems. Yeah, i have a pastor friend...when i go eat KFC with him, he starts to make jokes about those couples at the church that he is counselling. Bloody hell, no privacy at all ! He vividly even joke about how he counsel a couple to hug and kiss each other to make peace...when they were on the verge of divorce.

of course all church give to charity and to their mission people lah. but there is risk of abuse of funds because this is not audited.

like city harvest, i am very sure they give a lot to charity but recent case, they go and channel 25 mil for singing career.

who knows? there could have been more funds channeled elsewhere, we don't really know.

just like one church i heard, the committee go and arrange a youth camp, church gave them like 10k up front, then everytime got meeting, they go eat dim sum in jaya33...every weekend...charge out as food allowance...

ya think this is practical or not?

sure thing people are volunteering but ya think they should be using hard earn church contributi0on to go out makan good food?

of course pastors are human too, so they should be paid ok ok lar.

but in singapore some churches pay like $150,000 per year.

rich members sometime also very show off. Like this small church i told you, the rich businessman in auto spare part.. at first he stay in average house in cheras then he bought one giant 6 storey high house as big as football field.....with infinity swimming pool, invited all the youth to come like dam show off....now his house even bigger than the church.

what a waste of money..his family only 4 people plus his mother in law. Now his only son went to study overseas, big house for 3 people.

enjoy? more like showing off.

some more he dare to tell the youth to be humble and not to greed for money. What does he know about that? he born with silver spoon...never know the meaning of being poor.

he got his cohorts in his ministry. you think this guy is stupid? as I said he is surrounded by his supporters.

Those youths are brought up by their parents who are members of the church. The only close friends they got are part of that youth group, they won't be stupid to cross hairs with that businessman who is their leader. Say one word against him, they be excommunicated.

its like you going to a perkasa convention alone, and telling them that DAP are better than them.

so for me, when I see a church ministry with a bunch of ego jerks, best is I butt out. I think there is a proverb in your bible right? Don't throw your pearls at swines...they just trample all over it. So if I just speak out, they just be swines not listening to me and trample over my words.

But there are those who cross hairs with the businessman, he use attrition such as boycott, social outcast, ignore and put that person out of the activities list. He can do it because he got a core group of leaders to help him. I seen one Christian guy from Acts church just come over because he is the boyfriend of one of th church member, he was left sitting down doing nothing,nobody talk to him for the whole duration of the meeting. After a few meetings, he did not turn up, the businessman's tactic worked.

you think this is a rant?

you initially disagreed that there are the third type of super ego Christians, I merely set out to you examples. You forgot the initial topic of debate is it?

eh, did you exercise your brains today? you telling me to join their church to argue with them when I not Christian. Is like you join Perkasa to tell them to become Christians.

there is nothing in common I have with them.

Why I want to be a hero to people that I have nothing to common with and people who are sub human to me? I refuse to teach them about my values on humanity because I felt these kind of sub humans don't merit my help. I will only keep my knowledge to benefit more worthy mankind.

Again you get it all wrong. I am telling you of the third type of Christian. Its negative to you because you're being defensive. Now you are using fark words...why trying to show Christian machoness? Yeah I get that a lot...got one Christian guy he always invite me to sell insurance and force his advice down my throat...then when I disagree he start showing his true colors by using bad words. Sheesh, first they put up a shield of niceness but when they get frustrated..they try to act macho by saying the four letter word but they fumble...because it sounded like they never said it for years.

its a rant to you because you're getting defensive.

i know we are just human and we make mistakes. But the thing here is, pastors are now using this "FOCUS ON GOD, NOT ON US"...credo to justify their actions and to continue with structural flaws at church.

Its just another way of saying "we are not bothered to improve ourselves, overcome any weaknesses we encounter whether its a political or organisation problem".

Just like the example of my friend who is a buil;ding committee at a big church. He grown disillusion with the leadership when they pound him with this credo.."we are not perfect, we should not fight, we should be peacemakers, we should focus on god".

then it became very clear the church was abusing funds to build a monolith building that they don't really need. Waste of funds ! Mismanagement. Luckily he left the church to another church, rather than to be a complete zombie follower.

There is another church in cheras, where they got over 50 young adults...but the leader rich businessman there, controls it with an iron fist with his 12 brainwashed followers. People go there, to serve serve and serve - no happiness and joy out of that. If some new guy came and wanted to just have a nice conversation, they just not layan him, want to play politics. The leader there say this is not a social club...of course not lah, but why make the whole place so unpleasant, and they usually will target those they don't like, be unfriendly to force that person out by attrition.

come on lah, even to serve also..cannot laugh meh? i am sure god want you all to enjoy what you doing mah...if like what unknown warrior say he joy in his suffering, why don't bring a bed of nails to go to church to worship...then sit on it, and sing song...more joy meh?

thought that your bible say the house of god is for everybody...and based on what i heard from friends who spoke about jesus helping the lame, poor, the troubled people, isn't christianity is about kindness and care for everybody?

not being wicked and mistreat others that you don't like.

when i was first invited with some people into that church, i knoew something was wrong, i had a hunch...after two meetings i never came back because first me no christian but second they are the most unfriendliest SOB and arrogant ones i ever met.

they speak of pharisees, but they act like one.

and another favourite weapon they like to use is to say that people who criticize people are ones who are "hurt" by them...but for me, i only there for two meetings...how can this be?

they just wanna say stuff like that to slander the people who bring out truths about them. They try to label people who speak up as troublemakers.

its their favourite weapon.

i am not saying and i hope not all churches are like that. But i am sure christians will continue to improve themselves, and not try to use the word to deflect their flaws. I am also not saying all christians are like that..but i have met some really nasty ones.

i met one christian in my office, he thinks he is always right because he is a chrsitian and he thinks god is backing all his actions at all times.

but when i see him make errors in his work, he tend to hide them...not admitting them, use the excuse focus on god not on me...and he thinks he is right all the time.

i heard in his church got one christian girl that like him, she join his cell group when he is the cg leader...btw this guy is 35 years old. i made a joke one day, about this girl..and he straight away bad mouthed her. He hate her so much that he wished she disappeard from the face of the earth. He got his whole cg to ignore her and mistreat her..until she gave up going to cg.

Wtf? He preach good news and profess love for people, but he treat this girl like shiit. Not only that, he think he is very high standard. I make jokes with him about this girl and that girl, he say all ugly. Then he pointed out which girl he liked, when i saw their picture...walao, i knew his standard very high.

but he should look at himself in the mirror...he is bald guy not handsome, he dont' accept other people opinion, to him ah, when he say something he want people to listen to him. When girl like him, he go and reject her badly.

this kind of guy ah, when he meets some girl he likes, very sure karma will come back to him.

yeah that is the point. When you say "we focus on ourselves to make good deeds to close ranks over those who made the mistakes and not admit their mistakes"...that should be the spirit.

that would be the efforts that the christiian want to portray to show to the non christians that they are serious in improving ties and structural defects in their church. When one leader makes serious mistakes, others will close ranks and improve on that area.

i mean i always hear the christians complain about lack of religious freedom and about other pressure groups, but seriously when they look into their own churches, the way they handle things, its no different from those pressure groups.

when somebody brings up an issue, suddenly the person in the church becomes ex communicated and labeled as a troublemaker. no different then how those pressure groups are blaming christians for their problems.

christians always complain about persecution but at the same time laud persecution as a way to improve themselves under pressure...always using the term "refined by fire". But when persecution come, they complain complain, when i go to gym, i always notice the church near my gym, the members driving mercedes, bentleys and bmws...into the car park, enjoying such rich blessings. Wow, these days the christians of today enjoy such excellent lifes (in Malaysia) while their counterparts brethren in Iraq, Nigeria, Sudan, India (Dalits) face daily persecutions. Maybe the churches in msia has become too complacent and too wealthy to notice any self problem until they got too much free time that they start to play politics in their own backyard.

as a result we meet many over defensive and lack of self esteem christians that a little bit of comment (like Brusky)...they try to squeeze out the person and label him/her as troublemaker rather than make serious changes.

i thought the christians always laud when kena slap on the right cheek, offer the left side...but nowadays, you accidentaly say something, tthe christians come back in a tank to attack back...

gosh, that is a blast from the time when christians say their jesus used to help the poor, lame and handicap.

nowadays, the christians laugh at people with problems. Yeah, i have a pastor friend...when i go eat KFC with him, he starts to make jokes about those couples at the church that he is counselling. Bloody hell, no privacy at all ! He vividly even joke about how he counsel a couple to hug and kiss each other to make peace...when they were on the verge of divorce.

of course all church give to charity and to their mission people lah. but there is risk of abuse of funds because this is not audited.

like city harvest, i am very sure they give a lot to charity but recent case, they go and channel 25 mil for singing career.

who knows? there could have been more funds channeled elsewhere, we don't really know.

just like one church i heard, the committee go and arrange a youth camp, church gave them like 10k up front, then everytime got meeting, they go eat dim sum in jaya33...every weekend...charge out as food allowance...

ya think this is practical or not?

sure thing people are volunteering but ya think they should be using hard earn church contributi0on to go out makan good food?

of course pastors are human too, so they should be paid ok ok lar.

but in singapore some churches pay like $150,000 per year.

rich members sometime also very show off. Like this small church i told you, the rich businessman in auto spare part.. at first he stay in average house in cheras then he bought one giant 6 storey high house as big as football field.....with infinity swimming pool, invited all the youth to come like dam show off....now his house even bigger than the church.

what a waste of money..his family only 4 people plus his mother in law. Now his only son went to study overseas, big house for 3 people.

enjoy? more like showing off.

some more he dare to tell the youth to be humble and not to greed for money. What does he know about that? he born with silver spoon...never know the meaning of being poor.

he got his cohorts in his ministry. you think this guy is stupid? as I said he is surrounded by his supporters.

Those youths are brought up by their parents who are members of the church. The only close friends they got are part of that youth group, they won't be stupid to cross hairs with that businessman who is their leader. Say one word against him, they be excommunicated.

its like you going to a perkasa convention alone, and telling them that DAP are better than them.

so for me, when I see a church ministry with a bunch of ego jerks, best is I butt out. I think there is a proverb in your bible right? Don't throw your pearls at swines...they just trample all over it. So if I just speak out, they just be swines not listening to me and trample over my words.

But there are those who cross hairs with the businessman, he use attrition such as boycott, social outcast, ignore and put that person out of the activities list. He can do it because he got a core group of leaders to help him. I seen one Christian guy from Acts church just come over because he is the boyfriend of one of th church member, he was left sitting down doing nothing,nobody talk to him for the whole duration of the meeting. After a few meetings, he did not turn up, the businessman's tactic worked.

you think this is a rant?

you initially disagreed that there are the third type of super ego Christians, I merely set out to you examples. You forgot the initial topic of debate is it?

eh, did you exercise your brains today? you telling me to join their church to argue with them when I not Christian. Is like you join Perkasa to tell them to become Christians.

there is nothing in common I have with them.

Why I want to be a hero to people that I have nothing to common with and people who are sub human to me? I refuse to teach them about my values on humanity because I felt these kind of sub humans don't merit my help. I will only keep my knowledge to benefit more worthy mankind.

Again you get it all wrong. I am telling you of the third type of Christian. Its negative to you because you're being defensive. Now you are using fark words...why trying to show Christian machoness? Yeah I get that a lot...got one Christian guy he always invite me to sell insurance and force his advice down my throat...then when I disagree he start showing his true colors by using bad words. Sheesh, first they put up a shield of niceness but when they get frustrated..they try to act macho by saying the four letter word but they fumble...because it sounded like they never said it for years.

its a rant to you because you're getting defensive.

A GRAIN OF WHEAT ABIDING ALONE UNLESS IT FALLS INTO THE GROUND AND DIES

The Lord Jesus said, "Unless the grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it abides alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit" (John 12:24). This word applies not only to the Lord Jesus but also to us. Today we have the Lord’s life in us, so we are the many grains of wheat. Yet we are unable to multiply, unable to bear much fruit, and unable to produce many grains because we have not been broken through death.

Many of us are very stable, steady, and whole. Many times, however, our stability, steadiness, and wholeness are our problem. For example, although we may have been saved for years, we may not have any scars or any evidence of the work of the cross on us, and our being may still be intact, whole, steady, and unchanged. The only difference may be that before we were saved, we were wild, careless, and misbehaving. After being saved, however, we are no longer wild and careless but rather well behaved. This is merely a change in behavior.

There are two kinds of change that can occur in a Christian. One is a change in outward conduct, and the other is a change in the inward life. A change in outward behavior means that in the past you did whatever you liked, acting loosely and without any restraint. But now, since you have been saved, you feel that your former conduct would not befit a Christian and therefore you need to be more cautious. However, this is merely an outward change; your inner being is still the same. You are still secure and firm, stable and steady, whole and intact. You are still your original person. Our problem is not in our outward behavior but in our disposition, our natural life, and our old self.

Oh this thread got moved to Serious kopitiam