Try not to be so subjective ... Initial salvation although marvellous and dynamic for some people, at least, most 2nd generation Christians like me, tend to have a "normal" salvation. I just have an inward, unspeakable peace within ... that's all.

I have met with many 180 turn .... believers ... those are just outward changes (which is marvelous ... I am not putting it down) but that is just initial, superficial and outward.

They testified that they "envied" that I grow up in the church life with all the knowledge. Vice versa, we (2nd generation) envied their dynamic salvation. So .... all is fair.

The real growth in the divine life is THE REAL DEAL, which is after regeneration. These growth are slow and steady but solid. It is just like the growth of human life.

For example, we experience these dealings throughout our entire life:

Consecration
Dealing with Sins
Dealing with the World
Dealing with the Conscience
Obeying the Teaching of the Anointing
Knowing the Will of God
Dealing with the Flesh
Dealing with Self
Dealing with the Natural Constitution
Accepting the Discipline of the Holy Spirit
Dealing with the Spirit
Being Filled with the Holy Spirit
Knowing the Body
Knowing the Ascension
Reigning
Spiritual Warfare
Full of the Stature of Christ

So, my advice is, start by spending time with Lord. Don't look for outward change. Call on His Name, "O Lord Jesus!" all the time, loudly, audibly. Pray over His Word. Eat His Word.

Exercise your human spirit to contact Him.

Seriously, everyday I eat breakfast. It is nothing spectacular. But I grow strong through daily eating. It is also the same with "spiritual eating" to grow. Dynamic inward change within is more valuable.

This post has been edited by pehkay: Apr 23 2014, 08:31 AM

Interesting ..... need to ask you all, how do you find the truth of sonship? As adoption (divine filiation) or real organic sonship (we have the life of God)? Is it a big majority in the understanding that regeneration is adoption?

This post has been edited by pehkay: Apr 30 2014, 10:13 PM

Dear all, actually it's not that I am looking for a answer ... But more of a need to know where you all stand in this ? Is this view common?

Can you all accept that we are divinely adopted through baptism than a real divine birth having the life of God?

Sorry if I sound confusing.

Hahah ... you put them together? Actually, I have to be more picky on my sentences ...

It is either:

1) divinely adopted through believing + baptism
2) a real organic divine birth having the life of God through believing + baptism


My view

It is not that adoption is wrong .... IMHO just inadequate.

The Greek word (lit., setting one as a son) occurs five times in the New Testament (Rom. 8:15, 23; 9:4; Gal. 4:5; Eph. 1:5) and has been translated in the majority of English versions as adoption as sons.

I feel this translation is unfortunate because adoption conveys the impression to most English readers that the way one becomes a son of God is through a judicial procedure.

An alternate translation, sonship, which occurs in a few versions carries the notion in English of one who has the status of a son. E.g. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

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Ah ... it is just nothing .... XD

Eh .. sorry for the late reply. No problem with your disagreeing

But your understanding of adoption as a judicial process is the classic example of laying stress on a legal, judicial act whereby the adoptee is transferred from one family into another family, in this case, "from an alien family…into the family of God".

It also detracts from the Paul's concept of sonship as the attainment of the full inheritance of God as a result of maturing in the divine life.

Yes, salvation must be judicial [judicial redemption]. It fulfils God's righteous requirements. But there is also the organic aspect of salvation.

The feeling is gone because you experienced spiritually the love of God as the Father because we are genuine sons This we cannot deny.

Sonship also reinforces the notion of an organic union between Father and sons, Begetter and begotten, which union is effected by regeneration.

Through regeneration, bywhich the life and nature of God are imparted into the believers (John 1:13; 2 Pet. 1:4), human beings become children of God by virtue of the organic union with Him that is caused by the divine birth (John 1:12-13; 3:6).

This is why we are positioned to receive the full inheritance of God as genuine and matured sons of God.

My snippet of the day that I enjoyed:

"Do not try to be humble, for humility is like a bird. If you try to catch it, it flies away. Do not try to love your wife or to submit to your husband. You cannot do it. Simply take the Word. The Word brings life, and this life will issue in love and submission. Humility, love, and submission are all found in this life. We cannot acquire these virtues by our effort or work. They are all in the divine life."

That is a first time I ever heard .... ^^; Is there such a thing?

I am not sure why people are interested in these things .... But, I won't start labelling God is this and that ....

Two difficulties had arisen in the church in Rome - vegetarianism and Sabbatarianism. The vegetarians maintained that men began to eat meat only after the fall, and for that reason the eating of meat was wrong. There is no harm in ruling meat out from one's diet, but there is no salvation in it either. Vegetarianism is Cainism; it is bloodless. The Lord said, "My flesh is true food (i.e., eatable), and My blood is true drink (i.e., drinkable)" (John 6:55).

Man’s need for food before the fall was different from his need for food after the fall. We must understand the meaning of food. Food sustains our life. If a man does not eat, he will die. No one can live and survive without eating. In addition to eating herbs, vegetables, and fruits, God ordained that man should take meat in order to live and survive. In other words, God shows us that after sin entered the world, life must be sacrificed to preserve life. There is the need for an animal to lose its life to maintain our life. After sin entered this world, there was a need for the shedding of blood to maintain life. This is the reason that man’s food after the fall is different from his food before the fall. Christians should not be vegetarians; they should be free to take meat.

This does not mean that meat will necessarily do our body any good. Whether or not it is good for our body is a different thing.

The basic principle with us is that since sin has entered the world, man can no longer have life without the sacrifice of life.

You are correct that in Romans 14, we can see that Paul's attitude is very inclusive. Essentially he is not dealing with the question of right or wrong but with the question of Christian fellowship. He makes clear what the basis of this fellowship is. The point to be stressed is not whether a man's views are right or wrong, but whether God has received him.

Also, in verse 6 the phrase "to the Lord" is important. If a vegetarian sought fellowship, we should ask, "Do you refrain from eating meat because it is an idea of yours, or do you do it to please the Lord?" If he said, "To please the Lord," then I should reply, "If you can serve the Lord better this way, praise His name; go ahead."

Paul's stress is that those who live should live to the Lord and those who die should die to the Lord. Wherever we see that the central point is right, we should praise the Lord and not stress externalities. We should never lay emphasis on the technical side of Christianity, but always on the fundamental matter of doing everything "to the Lord." We must never seek to lead those who differ from us to think and act as we do, but simply seek to lead them closer to the Lord. The chief point is not whether we eat meat, but whether we are living to the Lord.

This post has been edited by pehkay: May 25 2014, 03:34 PM

Are you a Christian?

Actually the negative conditions of the seven churches is more than just lukewarm

Ephesus - leaving of the first love (best love) => start of degradation
Smyrna- the Lord referred to the “synagogue of Satan” (Rev. 2:9). The synagogue is a strong sign of Judaism. Also to overcome persecution, comprising tribulation, poverty, trial, imprisonment;
Pergamos - marriage to the world. Originally, the world opposed the church; now the world and the church are married. The method of Balaam is to destroy the separation between the church and the world, and the result is idol worship.
Thyatira - no need to say lar ... religious hierarchy, leaven etc.
Sardis - spiritually dead or dying.
Philadephia - being absolute to keep the Lord’s word (the only positive one)
Laodicia = lukewarm

Just a overview of overviews ...

Pijak?

Oh oh ... I didn't meant it that way ... but just to spur you on to consider more "gold mines" in seven local churches in Revelation.

But I am not sure what you want me to enlighten on? Lukewarm?

Maybe I will start with Ephesus ....

Although the church in Ephesus had many virtues [Paul himself laboured there 3 years day and night; It also had Apollos, Aquila, Priscilla, Timothy, Tychicus, and others working in it ^^], it was degraded because it had left its first love. In Revelation 2:4 the Lord said, "I have this against you, that you have left your first love." The Greek word for "first" here is the same as the word translated "best" in Luke 15:22. Our first love toward the Lord must be the best love for Him. The church in Ephesus had left this best love toward the Lord. It became a formal church life.

This is the clear revelation of the source of the degradation of the church during the first century. We may work and labor for the Lord and we may be pure doctrinally and correct scripturally, yet not have the first love for the Lord.

A church can be zealous and active outwardly, having the pure faith and the proper judgment, yet gradually losing the love which is the source of life. From the world's view and even from one's own view, the church may be excellent and display no traces of decline.

But from the view of the Lord who searches the inward parts and the hearts, the source [unseen] is detected. Can a bridegroom be satisfied if a bride is faithful in all duties but cold in love? Can a person hungry for love be satisfied by good works and diligence? Can a love as great as Christ's be satisfied by cold activities and dry works that are empty of a burning love? The Lord is jealous of our love! Love demands love, and short of it, no outward diligence can compensate for its loss.

Also, the reason one continue labouring at the cost of losing the first love might be the work had become a habit or that the work might have retained a good name for them. But, we cannot deceive the Lord with vain outward appearances.

It is by this love that we are the lampstand. If we lose this love, the Lord Jesus will remove the lampstand. This means that if we lose our love, we will lose the lampstand. So the more we love the Lord Jesus, the more we will be shining, and the more we will enjoy Him as the tree of life. To be the lampstand and to enjoy the Lord as the tree of life requires the best love toward the Lord, a love which surpasses all other things. We must have the first love, the best love, the most pure love toward the Lord Jesus. Then we will be the living lampstand, and we will be qualified to enjoy Him as the tree of life. Love, light, and life all go together. If we have the first love and the best love toward the Lord Jesus, we will be a shining lampstand, and we will enjoy the Lord Jesus as the tree of life.

I think this is a misconception that the both believers and non-belivers have regarding the church, in that, it is a building. Even more or higher, the church is an assembly of Christian gathered together.

Ah something are hard to share if you are not a Christian or have never read the Bible.

In a high sense, the church is an organism of the Triune God. The church is not something outside the Triune God. Neither is the church merely a group of believers who meet together. The church is the constitution of Christ. It is not an organization; it is a constitution with Christ and of Christ.

Consider your physical body. It is not an organization, but a living constitution including many parts. When you go to a dentist, he may fix your teeth by placing a golden element in them. However, that element is not part of your constitution. No matter how pure, valuable, and beautiful it may be, it cannot be constituted into you, because it does not contain your life.

Likewise, the church is not just a group of believers in Christ who have been cleansed of defiling germs, who have been made righteous, clean, and pure, and who regularly gather together. This is not an adequate understanding of the church. The church is the constitution of Christ. It is Christ constituted into the very fiber of our being. The Christ constituted into us is the church. The church is the constitution of the resurrected Christ who embodies the reality of the Triune God.

Thus, the church is a living constitution of the Triune God who has been wrought into our humanity. Yes, we are human beings, but in our humanity we have the constitution of the Triune God, for He has been wrought, constituted, into us. Hence, we are not merely human beings; we are also the church. We are not simply a group of believers meeting together. We are those who have been immersed into the Triune God and who have Christ constituted into our being. This is the church. The church people are not merely those who have been redeemed, cleansed, purified, and adjusted. They are those who have been reconstituted with Christ, who is the very embodiment of the Triune God.

Of course, we don't deny that majority do not meet up the standard. That is beside the point.

Anyway, I was just responding to your question on the church


Cheers!

This post has been edited by pehkay: May 30 2014, 11:45 AM

Yeah ... I heard that even Bartman, a skeptics tending to atheist, list out 11 sources.

Lol ... too much time spent on enterprise support aren't you?

It is not like Nostradamus' writing ... not trying to be cryptic for the sake of being cryptic.

What is in the Old Testament is a typology, a set of types. Then what is in the New Testament is a complete fulfillment of that typology concerning God’s purpose.

It's just like a book ... you need pictures [which is like a picture is worth a thousand words] and the definitions, explanation etc.

Thus, the entire Bible, both the Old Testament and the New Testament, is first a picture of God’s purpose and then a full definition and fulfillment of God’s purpose.

On the one hand, if we want to know the Old Testament, we must come to the New Testament definition. In the Old Testament, we can see only the pictures. On the other hand, if we want to know the New Testament, we have to spend the time to look at all these pictures.

So, the Old Testament presents a figurative portrait of God’s eternal purpose spanning thirty-nine books, but it is only in four sections—in types, in history, in poetry, and in prophecy.

Unless you are thinking of some of the Chinese character's root to Genesis .... I am afraid there isn't any relationship with Chinese culture.

Furthermore, the book of Colossians reveals that Christ is versus culture. 2:8 Paul says, “Beware that no one carries you off as spoil through his philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the elements of the world, and not according to Christ.”

Colossians 3:10-11 says, "And have put on the new man, which is being renewed unto full knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, where there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free man, but Christ is all and in all."

In the world the greatest distinction is based on nationality. The Jews and the Greeks are two very distinctive races. So no more nationality.

The second distinction is between free men and slaves. This distinction has also been eliminated in Christ. No more social class.

The third distinction is between male and female. In Christ and in the new man, the male and the female have the same status; there is no distinction between them. The male does not occupy a special position; neither does the female.

The fourth distinction is between barbarians and Scythians. This is a distinction of culture. There are differences in cultural standards, yet Paul told us that the cultural distinctions of barbarians and Scythians alike have been abolished in Christ.

The final distinction is between circumcision and uncircumcision. This distinction has to do with marks of piety in the flesh or rituals. The Jews have the mark of circumcision on their bodies. It shows that they belong to God, that they fear God, and that they reject the flesh. Yet they overemphasize circumcision. Acts 15 speaks of some Jews who tried to compel the Gentiles to be circumcised.



In this new man you have no place. In other words, in this new man the Jew has no place, and neither does the Greek. The American has no place, and neither does the British. The Japanese has no place, and neither does the Chinese. In this new man the natural man has no place. The hating ones have no place. Neither do the loving ones have any place. We all have no place in this man. The quick one has no place. The slow one also has no place. Circumcision refers to the religious ones and uncircumcision to the unreligious ones. The religious ones and the unreligious ones all have no place in this new man. The civilized or the barbarian have no place. The slaves and the freemen have no place because Christ in this new man is all the persons. Christ becomes you and Christ becomes me. Christ becomes every one of us. Christ is all the persons and Christ is in all the persons. In this new man it is not a matter of being humble, kind, gentle, or loving. It is altogether a matter of a person living in us. In this new man it is not a matter of morality, ethics, or goodness. In this new man there is only one person.

I feel that attracting Chinese to Christ by "packaging" Christianity to appeal to their culture is a no no The result today, is churches tend to be of a certain culture, language and practices. This is unfortunately, not a good testimony. The church is a golden lampstand (expressing divine nature of God - gold).

We should only present Christ Jesus as the Attracting One to people. The best way is to personally experience Christ as the attracting factor to gain people in a normal way.

In other words, we hardly live Christ out as the Most Wonderful Person in the universe We only live ourselves. There is hardly any living out of Christ that attracts people to say, I want to live in this way.

So, there is a need to firstly let the Lord has His way in us. He may deal with out "chineseness" that frustrate bring salvation to the Orang Asli, for example.

John 15:2 says, “Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes it away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it that it may bear more fruit.”

We must go to the Lord to have a thorough dealing with Him, opening ourselves and presenting ourselves to Him without any covering for the self. We must strip off our cover as much as possible and present ourselves fully on the altar. We should say, "Lord, here I am. Come to enlighten me. Shine upon me. Investigate, examine, test, and expose me. Do everything You can to bring me fully into the light that I may see my real situation." If we do this, we will immediately see several items that we must deal with. Perhaps the first item we need to deal with concerns our wife. We may need to say, "Lord, forgive me. I am constantly wrong in my attitude toward my wife.” Then the Lord will demand that we go to her to make a thorough confession and ask her forgiveness. It seems that this has nothing to do with the preaching of the gospel.

Bit by bit, the Lord transform us inwardly, eventually, Christ is slowly being expressed in our speaking, action, living etc ... people will be attracted.

This is, I feel, is the real preaching of the gospel. It is not a work but a living with the outflow of the divine life within us to bear fruit.

.......


I know this doesn't answer your question. It is also just my fellowship and opinion. You don't have to accept it

But perhaps, you can see that the problem does not really lies outwardly with people, but that we have never given any ground to the Lord.

Sorry, if you post any response, I will revert back tomorrow.

Much grace!

This post has been edited by pehkay: May 31 2014, 09:04 PM

Altar?

I guessing you are Catholic.

You are our brother in Christ.

But I am sorry, I can't help you in this matter as I myself do not stand with this matter