Since the old thread got removed, I decided to start a new one. This topic might stray or might not be in the right place for such a discussion however I'll leave that to the mods to decide. If the topic gets moved, my bad for not knowing which forum this kinda discussion should be belonged in.

Anyway, I'll start by talking about the 6 months+ i've been working on my own as a freelancer and as a business.

It's been great with freedom working from home and relaxing when I want to. But there have been stressful times of managing hard impatient clients with demanding projects. The good news is that my patience has been at a higher level so managing clients of all levels has been not too difficult.

The work has been slow which means income hasn't been great and definetely it's difficult being in a country where not everyone understands websites today and other things involving this business. However, I still believe there's light to this business and I'll no matter what work on in my line of website design and consultation even if I have to work under a company and run this business to keep married life afloat in future.

So to anyone who wants go their own way, make sure you've got a very good reason why and not just because you don't like your boss or your colleagues. If you want to work on your own, make sure it's of a higher calling like quality, exploration, experimentation, improvisation or just a time to break off from working as an employee for 10 odd years and it's time to do your own thing.

So let the questions, answers, discussions of this business get going once again.

This post has been edited by etsuko: Oct 11 2013, 12:35 AM

hi there, this is jensen and i m juz fresh graduate. i worked as freelancer for website design as well. i had some question which is

1. do u prepare documentation for the company which you deal with?

2. how about hosting and domain name fees?do you pay 4 them every year?or just help me 2 pay?

3. during maintanence?any problem if the company want to swap their website to let other company manage it?

btw, do u need some1 who have skill on Flash and Firework?
maybe we can coorperate?haha..

Woot my turn to write something here.

Well, i've started working as a freelance web designer a year ago. Boy, was it tough. It was the hardest year in my life. Thanks to some net mates, they were there to teach me and support me. Without them, i don't think i'll be able to make it til this day.

The main reason why at first i became a website is due to the low payment of salary in my area. Well, i was a fresh graduate with a degree and the best they can offer me here is RM500 monthly. LOL... that's why i became a freelancer.

But as time goes by, i realise that being a freelance web designer is not all about the money. No doubt sometimes you may earn more than working a regular job but how often does that happen? LOL.. Anyways, i had a chat with etsuko earlier (few months ago, i think) and he showed me that if all you want is a fix salary every month, then being a freelancer is not your choice.

Anyways, being a freelancer for this long really helps me to learn a lot of things. Thanks to so many pros that are willing to help me.

So in conclusion, no matter whatever people say, i will stay by my own will to be a freelance web designer in order to boost up the quality of websites from our country.

Cheers

Etsuko: You do websites not only in Malaysia, other countries too right? How do you advertise yourself as Web Designer to people all around the globe?

Dannyfoo.com? , do you have other site? More like corporate site, not personal.

Not sure if this question is appropriate to be asked here.

I would like to know, for starters, if I choose to run a site, what is the ideal web hosting space should I get? Minimum? Does it matter? Just to make sure everything run smoothly.

This post has been edited by zeist: Apr 6 2006, 03:45 PM

1. yes.. I prepare proposals for clients by request.
2. well, through experience so far, I find that if we ourselves host our clients we've less headache which makes things more manageable for us as well as the client.
3. so far no client has asked us to do that but if it does happen, migrating a website shouldn't be any problem. just that when the other company needs the source files (Code, PSD, FLA..etc) the client will have to purchase it from us.

we're not currently accepting anyone else in the team but if you think you can change our mind, show us your portfolio. oh yeah, on an important note.. if you're working just for money, don't waste time asking us to hire you. LoL!

Yup, few months ago. Well, I'm glad our persuasion of 'websites with value' have reached few people.

Just few days ago a guy from Dubai called and asked if we did courier tracking systems along with the website. I answered honestly and said nope, we don't have that kinda expertise as of yet. Why? Because we really haven't done such a thing and I myself don't even know how does the DHL/UPS system work. I pondered over the idea of it. However, if anyone knows of a company that does this stuff do PM me so I can inform the person.

The team is still bashing each other up (with air filled hammers) trying to decide what's a proper name for the business. Websites Made Simple is a name I made up in belief of the working principles our company should be based on. Anyway, .com has already been taken so we're cracking each others heads at the moment coming up with a more suitable name to register a .com

I forgot to say this, www.dannyfoo.com actually has been revamped to a more company type website but it's BETA. LOL!

What matters in hosting to me is reliability, support, service and speed. I prefer paying a lil more to someone who's been in the gig longer than a cheaper buy because the website is your access to potential clients and if it goes down or has too many problems, you're causing an equal amount of headache to what you've purchased.

This post has been edited by etsuko: Apr 6 2006, 04:51 PM

etsuko..
haha...thanks for all the valuable suggestion and opinion...
wat i want to say is i m not really work 4 money actually..web designer is my dream job n my interest..if i can take this interest to help me 2 earn money...tats amazing rite?
i believe that working with interest will make me myself less suffer from a lots of other job that i not really interested in.
i will show u my portfolio after i complete my 1st website and i believe that this is not really good enough..n i hope tat time u all can give me some opinion n suggestion..
actually i m not really means tat u need 2 hired me..mayb we ccan have some team work so that every1 strength can be use in correct way?rite?
anyhow..thanks a lot.....

Im still in Form 5 taking Graphic Design.I would like to know more about web design business.
Was it tough when u 1st started this career?
What was the hardest thing u hv gone through?

This post has been edited by MohdRidhwan: Apr 6 2006, 11:19 PM

jensen, understood and you can always find an honest review from me.
There's a trend of companies looking to hire website designers or the popular one today is graphic designers come website designers - which in my opinion is stupid. So in other words, finding a job would depend when you graduate and how hardworking you are in trying to look for a job. A portfolio website will get you lucky sometimes - I landed my internship through that way.

Other than a website, you could send out a friendly email and resume with a link to your portfolio to companies in the web business. There are a numerous number of them and some of them don't really use Jobstreet. The other places you could check out from time to time bout vacancies in the design industry is at www.doxob.com.

The other part about defining the toughness of this career is that you'll need more than passion but patience to survive it. Being the asian culture, some bosses or superiors expect their colleagues to work overtime and the worst part if there's no replacement for the work done either in payment or a leave. Also, be expected to make lots of changes to clients work because the boss tries to please everyone - part of asian culture maybe.

The industry when working also demands you to be able to work quick and that sometimes kinda kills your creativity because you aren't given much freedom to come up with a conceptual design/solution. I think in terms of salary the industry is quite fair nowadays but there are stingy companies.

So if you're going to have to work for someone someday.. you'll need skills, dedication, lots of patience, passion (to keep on believing in yourself and what you love to do) and a little less sleep depending if the company concentrates more on advertising - tend to be the most hectic. Providence the member has more experience in this side.

Well, that's basically the hardships I went through when working.

This post has been edited by etsuko: Apr 7 2006, 08:24 AM

etsuko,
Thanks! It sure helps me about the 'Real' world i'll be facing in the future.

hehe....i'll PM u the website tat i had done after tis...hehe...
in addiction, i check out the dannyfoo.com d...
i saw the portfolio and tat great...

oh ya...actually...how do u get all the business?
from fren?the company get approach to u themselves?

i got enquiries from LY, the website, referrals from family and friends so far. nothing really out of the norm.

however, i'm coming up with ways for us to get more clients or at least create an awareness of our existence to our targeted markets.

speaking of targeted market.. have any of you freelancers realized or have a targeted market for yourself..? or do you do just what comes your way..?

my target was developing flash application or games. i wanted to go on flash lite and that is for mobile application but it is still new here. another one thing that i target is courseware areas. since after i'm doing freelance with telekom smart school, i'm interested also in making a courseware. all of this are my targeted market.

and right now.. if i count from 2003... i just do what comes in my way.. heh

educational sutff is definetely still lacking around the globe.. especially good ones in malaysia that the parents know they're paying what they're getting. your Azimat game is a good start so I say keep on doing edutainment.

but 1 thing tat really need to consider is...edutainment s/w content..
actually last time when i was in my degree second year..one of our assignment is develop an edutainment s/w ...but i think the content for the target audiences would b very hard 2 decide...the content which is violent (which most of the users will be more interested) will found hard to accept by the parents...in the same way...
the simple and normal content would not attractive to the users...
so....how 2 decide?

well, in terms of violence.. i dun think there needs to be total gore just to teach a lesson to kids. besides, it might give them nightmares if they were too young.

on the other hand, violence already exists today not because of games but because of other psychological resons involved.

anyway, the Awang game is based on simple content but just needs a meaning to them. and imagine, if all goes well the government might implement it or you could sell the idea via some company.

IMHO,

that's what makes it more challenging.. on how to attract people learn something boring and turn it into attractive edutainment . taking my game/assignment as a sample, i have decide to focus on edutainment since other student want's to bring enjoyment to kids while lecturer said, the content have to follow and take part of the story. so i would say both of target audience and content are both important.

haha while i'm typing etsuko post oledi

that's why i put disclaimer there.. since the lecturer said all games that my class made was going to sell to karyanet to commercialized the story.. i promise there will be an upgraded version but since another assignment coming up .. so there will be delay. ..

now focusing on interactive art.. while nowadays so many interactive installation that serve as a TOY rather than telling in the concept and meaning.. so many things to do.. so little time..

well, i hope you'll be able to expand the game further.. and if you need help, just ask for some around. we'll gladly share ideas with you so that you could choose a story to resemble Awang.

not to mention it'll be a big addition to your portfolio later. there be lie your passion.

Why do you think the average number of clients in Malaysia don't really respect malaysian website designers unless you're an agency with several awards ? (Kancil and what not..?)

Is it our culture? Our upbringing? Our mentality? Or something else you've found?

i think the client always think that ( - why not go for cheaper person that you can pay since when you pay cheap, it cut the cost. - ) being a freelancer with student title is a pain in the a** since when i request everything being documented they will said ( - you just a student how come you need things B&W - oh you're using pirated software so must be cheap - ) bah.. im student so it is a common sense that i can't afford to buy original software, even i din buy original games.

and as always, when we send quotation stating the price, they will ask for lower price with more features and functions. not to mention if your price is high they will go to another person that willing to do it cheap.

another sad cases is the existance of middle-man. it's ok if person B that receive job from A and the B paying C with ratio 30:70 but that not always happen. my friend experienced that he doing php website for 5k ( 5k seems big for a student ) but the actual payment is 14k . so the friend of him has already eat 9k while he need to struggle to make sure the website reaching the value of 14k and he also need to see the A ( the client ) not the middleman. i'm not saying being a middleman is a crime but middleman suppose to share reasonable ratio like 30:70, 20:80 like that.

culture i guess

nice topic! why not ask the mod to pin this thread?

as an interactive designer and a freelancer myself, i'm quite aware of the market value of our kind.

there are several reasons of why we tend to be paid in a lower rate when compare to other countries lik US, Japan, Hk or even SG.

- a lot of self claimed "freelancer"
- the quality of the delivery
- professionalism of freelancing
- s/w piracy
- customers lack of proper education of design industry

so, since msia is still on the way of creating our own design identity, i think the best way is to upgrade ourself in terms of creative sense, the trend of web design and the way of servicing.

again, plagarism is a big no no
i'm not reffering to the earlier case of arachnid

This post has been edited by eddychstu: Apr 9 2006, 01:52 PM

thanks for relating your stories. i hope the others will too as well. as for the middleman scenario, trust me that there are many like that in Malaysia. the ones in Malaysia especially are the ones who will always expect a fee from a referral. in Malaysia, it's like there's nothing other than money. it's like everyone is living in poverty.

Lol! Good note there.

I think as far as clients degrading you and value in price just because you use pirated software is just unprofessional and immature. it's like a kid finding whatever weakness or loophole to get their parents to do something for them.

ermm.. i have googling for arachnid and it shows a meaning of spider... what are the earlier case of arachnid ? ( if it is a secret then PM me.. if dun wan to tell at all forget it )

no, this is not the idea, the thing is when everyone is using a down to zero cost s/w, they tend not to appreciate the property(s/w) they owned simply becoz 'cheap'. eg. i can design a website using a $5 s/w, so even if i charge the client $50 i still get to earn $45...see?

a standard corporate charge is so much different from freelance charge not only becoz of the men power involved, it is the investment of s/w that doest matter..whoever work in a interactive agency/design house will know the huge cost invested in s/w annually.

i agree some client might be using that as a nego tool to lower our price but the main concern here is we cant deny that we can develop something within a cheap cost.

let by gone be by gone

i still think this is something immature, unprofessional and unappreciated to do to someone just because the person is a student and doesn't have a team of 20-30 backing him.

if a high school kid showed me he has skills in 3D that was at the level of an experience designer in Malaysia, disregarding he's a student or used some pirated software to do it, i'll still pay him the amount I think his skills are worth. it might not be as much as a paid employee but definetely more than what he'd think he'd get.

then from there, it's up to the student to decide whether he should charge the clients about the same or allow them to push him around just cause he's a 'small fry'.

but the problem is not all clients think like you etsuko. I think it's like 1 out of 100. LOL...

well, have you tried asking an australian or american or even some japanese/thailand/india person what they'd think about such a scenario of a student who's got the skills of an experienced employee.

humiliating is one thing.. trying to degrade a student who's better than an employee is just plain hilarious.

I'd like us to discuss regarding Some Malaysians are Shameless especlially since it happened in our own forums.

Sigh, too bad the last post of that thread was edited though.

pump the bump again hehehe !!

lol..

well, we could discuss the thing about email newsletters..?

will it be replaced because its considered spam..? will RSS replace newsletters..?

i think RSS will be efficient since nowadays there's been a lot of widgets, and application that utilize RSS. i remembered 1st time i'm using desktopsidebar that has RSS slideshow where can read all those bulletin since 2003. if i'm not mistaken that time RSS reader applications till exist just a few. but also.. newsletter still hv to exist because not all people like we are, facing the computer 24 hours but for people on the go that check his emails 2 times a week, newsletter still important.

so i say.. till all people utilize thier gadgets and can access to read RSS everywhere, newsletter till have to exist.

very strong points indeed momochi.

RSS was never a tool explained to anyone when they learned how to surf the website hence the prefered utilization of reading email newsletters that's much texting.

The idea is there but user acceptance doesn't change over night, but progress is slowly growing where a lot of RSS driven system are being developed.

There are set of users who will choose one out of two, with RSS now some of the user might have a more suitable method to get latest info without having to read email all day long. For me personally, I never submit any newsletter form regardless how informative they are.

I don't like wasting time delete an email that in my opinion not relevant to me. With RSS, I can choose to read or ignore it and that's it, no hasle. But then again why must make it a fight, both have it pros and cons. It just likes DVD vs CD or USB Drive vs Floppy Drive. Even newer are better but to change human acceptance take time.

true.. maybe it'll come a day emails can be read like RSS feeds. all you need is the headline or an excerpt of the summarize form for the email.

come to think of it.. i wonder if there could ever be change because online consumers are increasing but yet they feel they should subscribe to the newsletter for future updates.

i wonder if we provided an RSS and newsletter function together, which will be the most utilized by these online consumers. hmm..

i think still newsletter. i think la since i oso subscribe to soem newsletter where the update is each week.. if we hv a widgets to a site that update only 4 times a month... that will be a waste.

ermm... nice to meet ya all, khor here...
since I don't have any working experience yet, I would like to ask some questions about free-lancing here...

if I'm not mistaken, mostly you'll only create websites with ordinary interface, no stylish animation no creative presentation like those in thefwa.com due to the limited time and for easier update right?
have you ever think of or received a task to design such website, stylish & artistic one, which you can put whatever creative inside it?
and is there any chance to receive one?
is that kind of task exists in malaysia market?
how much would you charge for that?
and how fast would you finish it?

and another question is how many percent of your web design tasks need a back-end engine?
would you write it yourself or pass the scripting job to the others?
which skill is the most important for the current market?
RSS? ASP? PHP? JSP? .net? AJAX? JAVA? Javascript? Actionscript?
how often you receive a task (no matter what kind it is)?
and how fast is the speed you required? one day for a simple website?

haha... sorry, too curious......
I'm stepping into this industry, so I guess I need to know more......

tidy up a bit :

1. have you ever think of or received a task to design stylish such website?
2. is there any chance to receive one?
3. is that kind of task exists in malaysia market?
4. how much would you charge for that?
5. how fast would you finish that kind of stuff?

6. how many percent of your web design tasks need a back-end engine?
7. would you write it yourself or pass the scripting job to the others?
8. which skill is the most important for the current market?
9. how often you receive a task (no matter what kind it is)?
10. how fast is the speed you required?

thanks thanks thanks thanks thanks...

GMail has implement such thing, but there a lot of thing other than that which we need to look into first and mainly it all about SECURITY of the data. It is norm to us that RSS isn't suitable for confidential information.



Art is different in each presentation, we have style for printable item, we have style for standalone application, we have style for web based. There are limit which we should follow to ensure that our product is not only catchy but at the same time suitable for it's purpose.



Personally my work evolved around PHP, AJAX and JS but I'm a web-based software developer, except for my current blogware CMS which would be using RSS, PHP, AJAX and Javascript.

1. I don't really get what you're trying to ask. but i guess if you're talking about design then all clients require a different type of feel or theme for their website most of the time. that's one of the reasons pre-made templates suXor.

2. Opportunities to be commissioned in designing a website comes from referrals and people who've like what you did and why you do it the way yo do. I've had some people approaching me just to design website templates but many turned me down due to the cost I charge.

3. Just to design website templates as a job? Nope. You won't be able to make a living like that unless of course you plan to do a side business selling them on Template Monster or something.

4. Hmm, I actually shouldn't be telling you this but since I've been frank with the community. Minimum is RM500 just for the design without the work file. But you have to consider the price based on experience, skillset, occupation and etc. Always do business honestly.

5. It depends on the client because deadlines can affect prices. But I think most of the time I take about 2 weeks or less depending on my design level aura.

6. Depends on the client again. Some don't have the money to afford a CMS and some prefer having someone update things for them.

7. I've got an in-house programmer for myself.

8. Urm, I think the marketing skill because you'll have to put up with some of the bs clients request or want from you. However, if business aside, minimum skills you need today are HTML, CSS, Flash, Photoshop, Illustrator, Dreamweaver and extra stuff if you can learn them.

9. Luckily for me it's been at least 1 request a month. But I'm hoping to increase to at least 4 in the future.

10. Don't get what you're asking here as well. If you're asking us as a client how fast do we want things done, well.. i think website templates shouldn't take longer than 2 weeks max. Development 3 weeks max.

This post has been edited by etsuko: May 16 2006, 11:57 AM

erm, maybe out of topic.. but, does any of you aware of this site http://www.wsmy.org named Web Standards Malaysia. Is this some kind of official movement?

This post has been edited by angeldothack: May 23 2006, 12:24 PM

I've seen that it's a trend for companies or even freelancers in the UK to quote their price in their website. I can see that their market rate is much more higher than M'sia.

Their pricing based on number of pages, flash, scripting etc. Lesser pages will have a higher cost for each page and vice versa. I wonder do designers in M'sia set such standards or guidelines for webdesign charges.

Urm, we can't compare the prices freelancers/agencies obtain in the UK in comparison to Malaysia? why? think of the other prices involved in their culture. food, internet, water, electric and etc. ours isn't as high as theirs.

hmm.. wmsy looks new to me. neva stumbled on it. looks to be a side project by an agency called MowForMedia. well, it'll be interesting to follow and see how they come up to the websites promoting standards later.

Hm.. not really comparing. Just wonder do M'sian designers set an acceptable price range for webdesign. Assuming same quality of work, some can quote RM 500 for 5 pages, some can quote RM 5000.

i see. i noticed crynobone site submitted in there, so maybe i thought some of you are behind this site a nice effort on pushing the web-standards in malaysia, although i might think it would be nice to push the standards of web-designing or web-development profession in the country at the same time.

i have come to a conclusion of, this industry really needs some 'advancement' in term of status or understanding by malaysians based on my experience, my friends, and others of you here..

This post has been edited by angeldothack: May 23 2006, 07:24 PM

well, think about these things when considering the price:
- size of team/company
- experience (years in the industry and technology being used)
- post and after sales service
- your own budget

yup, and the only way to educate most clients is go up to them and tell them, "your website is dying because you're stupid so learn about the standards today and get a new foot in the industry before you lose a leg."

This post has been edited by etsuko: May 24 2006, 10:41 AM

Yes, but we as Malaysia web designer/developer should also support them in encuraging these "movement". After that only our voice will be heard.

Oh, that'll be hard.

All of the supporters of these movements would need to carry a stamp or hammer to knock those other fellows in this field on the head and cane them until they've repented for their sins.

But I think the biggest problem is that we've too many unhappy employees and all of em are just too money hungry to be in this field. loL!

You know, since I joined LYN and ventured into the A&D category, I've seen unreasonable, or even considered absurd quotes for websites that could be easily made with something called Netobjects Fusion (USD 110)
What I don't get is, what makes these prices so "special"? No, writing in notepad/ elegant code should not be a reason, and it's not like you paid RM2000 for royalty free images.
RM500-600 for a static site... ouch.
Dynamic sites... RM1000+... WTF...
Something that uses Perl scripting+ Dynamic content+ lots of bells and whistles...

you're saying this.... you are ?? a designer as well... i know how to do websites unlike normal bussiness-making clients...

sometimes... the design.. the logo... etc2..

and there are more really.. SEO, web accessibility , web usuability... this is really for 'valueable' designer..

because everyone is greedy and want to make alot of money very quick. hehe

I'm going to explain this issue as shortly as I can.

Firstly there are 2 main types of companies in this business:
1. The ones who do it for the love and quality.
2. The ones who do it for the easy money and large market of bimbo clients.

Now, Type 1 is as picky as the client when it comes to a design and etc for their website. They look at the client's website as more than just an online presence and try to help the client take it further.

Type 2 aren't as picky and are most likely the ones who'll buy and learn the Fusion 9 software while selling their services to clients. They want the easy money and they know that there are lots of bimbo clients. So, they make more money.

However, if the client ever hears what their website lacking from a friend who hired a Type 1 then Type 2 won't have hope for future jobs from the clients friends aka referrals. So what does Type 2 do? Prey on the other bimbo clients still available.

If you still don't understand why do clients pay me more than RM4000 to develop their website, let me try to tell you why though I should kill anyone who reads this after as its part of companyies secrets.

1. Consultation to discuss with clients the strategy involved for their website.
2. Customized design based on the clients & their customers requirements.
3. Development that supports website standards. (I couldn't find any part of Fusion 9 talking about website standards)
4. Customized system based on the clients website. (if u offer too much freedom, they'll ruin the strategy)

Each company in Type 1 or agencies like XM, XiMnet, NetInfinium, Arachnid, (if) Interactive and etc charge clients a pricey fee not because they'd like to but because they have to.

If you're a doctor, do you charge patients only RM10 every time they see you? No, right? Why? Because you feel that your life is worth more than money and more than a website?

Your website is your company which is also your baby or your boss's baby if you're the one liasing. You care for your baby as much as your life and you want the best for it although you know you don't want to spend too much or you'll make both of you die at the same time.

The reason why I charge my clients RM4000+ is because I value their website like it's my baby or my life. I value their customers as much as they do. I commit to their website so much that the clients sometimes don't understand what we do for them.

The other reason why agencies can charge some clients especially MNCs RM10k-100k for 1 project is because it's part of a marketing campaign. It's a huge package thrown in.

So tell me, does Fusion 9 or any of these owners of Fusion 9 do all this for clients?

or are they all just Type 2 companies?

This post has been edited by etsuko: Jun 16 2006, 12:24 AM

Well, more power to you then since all the potential clients would flock to Netobjects Fusion users like you. I supposed it's the same reasons people pay psychiatrist to just 'listen', programmers to just type, photographers to just snap a few pictures. Maybe labourers should be paid millions because they seem to do the most work of all. While you're at it, why don't you ask the reason people are paying RM2000 for royalty free images?

Dynamic sites for RM1000? Bullshit.
Pay peanuts, get monkeys.

Well if the logic goes, I should be making millions on art pieces at 15yrs old.
(I do it for love, and my stuff isn't awful at all. Ouch?)
I don't use Fusion, it's just an interesting contrast to bring up.

And for stock photography...
Take Taiwan-based ImageDJ and Imagefarm as comparisions:
I-DJ has awsome images at >USD100 per collection.
IF has awful scans of what seemed to be half-hearted images taken using an APS (well, this is not true But it annoys me almost to make it true) at USD200+.

On the other hand, Digital Vision (part of Getty images now) sells most of it's CDs at USD500+. The quality is awsome, but is there anyone forking out money for 100 images of the same theme?

Money doesn't always get you what you expected. Lots of people don't charge HYPER for more talent, which would be the result of the majority of internet projects (Wikipedia, anyone?)

And no, using a cheaper app doesn't mean the website would deteriorate in quality. It might appear differently in different browsers, but you could get some more code in to counter that. Simillarly, it doesn't give a gurantee that Dreamweaver would output unbreakable code even with its premium price tag.
I'd love to get Digital Vision stock collections, but IF ImageDJ collections do the job well enough, who gives a damn if they shot pictures without using SLRs?

Which is, why would I get a person who charges RM2000 for my personal flash site when a person who does it under RM200 outperforms him/her? So it HAS to be the latter person wouldn't give a damn about what I want, what I need? Nope.

TBH I might be underestimate web designers' work. But I care for how the website works- in design first. And what I saw definately does NOT justify the price.

And so therefore you found a person who overestimates his worth? Nobody is forcing you to pay for an expensive service. You CHOOSE to pay them. Same goes for web designers. If you prefer to get a RM200 design work, so be it. Paying for a RM2000 work that is lousier than a RM200 work is the result of your own failure in recognizing your designer's capabilities.

To be fair, there is no fixed standard. How people choose to charge is their choice and that choice is based on many factors such as marketing, sales, SEO, programming, scripting, designing, licensing, etc.

Or did you just think web designers pop up photoshop, load a downloaded template, slice, save as html and get paid?

general rule of thumb, pay peanuts, get monkeys
though you might be lucky enough to get a smart monkey, good for you.

This post has been edited by wantanseller: Jun 16 2006, 05:07 PM

Agree with you

to me, there are designer know how to promote himself very well. But the artwork is just so-so standard.
So, the price can mark up higher thru his speaking ability.

Still der are some low-esteem but talented designer offers lower price in humble. Main reason is lack of communication tricks. Maybe shortage of financial or the so called Passion.

I dun really care bout how skillful of ur organised minded, powerful language or potential strategy after website built.<-- This is from the heart & mind of the Client.

Dat's y sometimes u haf to prepare samples site/work to convince ur client either u worth RM200 or RM2000 value.
Unless, the designer u pay for is introduce by friend. Then even RM4000 u will think must be a good return work.

Most of us trust our friend's choice for sometimes.

I'm not going to touch on photography and those sites selling them because that can be a whole topic of its own.

However, because my focus is web that's why I'd like to try my best in explaining why some people charge more and they get it for all their worth. Not to mention, it's true half the time in Malaysia you pay peanuts to most people you'll only a monkey's work. I'd also like to say this debate gives me great practice as influential power when I try to convince and instil confidence of clients in me in future. So thank you for such a great debate started.

Okie, let's take your example of a person who charges you RM2000 (Mr A) and another at RM200 (Mr B) for a personal Flash site. Let's also assume both of these are legit and honest people who love what they do. Let's also consider the fact that you're a designer (Mr C) who is hiring another designer to help you do something.

Mr A has 10 years experience and he's a qualified Art Director. So to him, he charges you by the experience and the knowledge he has to share with you on the best action to take for your personal Flash site. He's been in the field and he's been through it all.

Mr B is only a student or a fresh graduate trying to break into the business. He knows that if he charges too high, he won't get the job. And what if he doesn't, no money to eat, no money for rent and etc. Mr B outperforms Mr A in terms of the new ideas he's seen by surfing around more and knows how to impress you by implementing those new funky type stuff.

Now, here's the finale. If you're a designer and you hire designers to help you design something, you'll never be 100% satisfied with what that designer has to offer because your vision isn't aligned with his. Mr B impresses you more because he's cheap and he so calls 'outperforms' Mr A. As for Mr A, well, to him is that he'll most likely take it as not a lost but a win in relief that he doesn't have to handle a case where he's not appreciated.

And all of this happens even when we're assuming both Mr A and B are legit and honest business people.

I can tell you now that some agencies who quote clients even from the government are over pricey. But why do these government clients give in and throw money at these unworthy agencies. I wish I knew. I can only assume because they've won the heart of the client with suggestions and marketing.

When I was a fresh grad, I asked the same question as you at one point. I asked why and how can agencies get so much money from clients and why clients don't mind spending. Well, through what I've learned and heard from colleagues:
1. Clients demand quality and results.
2. Clients trust a brand than a price.
3. Clients listen to their friends.
4. Clients know what its like to run a company with a workforce.
5. And other things I'm still learning..

I'm getting tired of explaining this issue because it feels like website design really doesn't have an understood value in Malaysia. It's getting tiresome that I'm feeling more like I'm preaching for you to consider than to understand the quotation from all aspects and not just the design or the value.

So let me end this long entry with a breakdown of costs some companies take to survive..
1. Pay company fees (SDN BHD, annual and monthly fees) - 2300-5k+
2. Company office rent (per month) - 2500-5k+ depending on size
3. Company materials (stationary) - 1000 per month
4. Company equipment (software/hardware) - 10k a year (if there are 10-15 workers)
5. Company employees (assume each 1.5k and 10 people) - 15000 per month
6. Comapny misc expenses (petrol..etc) - 1-5k per month

If you do the maths, you can see why an agency will quote clients at a much higher price. The reason some are higher or lower depends on the risk, the value and the company they are handling.

If a freelancer earns RM4000 for each project, it could be because he's got what clients want and believe. If he only charges a client RM200, several things can occur on its own that I don't want to touch.

I'm not going to tell you the peanuts proverb but I'm going to ask you to try and look at this from different angles, views and possibilities on why people charge the way they charge and how come they can charge the way they charge.

Every business runs on a different strategy.

Sorry for such a long and tiresome post everyone.

Problem is that a lot of people think of web design as a garage company thingy where web designers don't have liabilities and assets. Worse still, their work is percieved as of little value as demonstrate by our dear thread starter. They get one fella who churns out average design for RM200 and expects everyone else to do the same. I'm sorry but did it occur to you that web design is a business? You know... earn money?

It's like we went back to the dark ages again... this isn't a web design issue, a lot of these people are seriously lacking the the economics department and much less in business.


EDIT: to etsuko for his patience

This post has been edited by wantanseller: Jun 17 2006, 02:20 AM

No worries. I'm actually trying to get Wiley Chin from XiMNet to guest write an article for me about what she thinks of this whole issue. Then i'll put in on my blog.

Hope she churn an article out.

if you are not happy then dun get the service, plain and simple. No one is forcing you to take their servive and whatever the quote is up to them. No matter if they are paying a dollar or few thousand for some images, its because they are not capable to doing the job that is y they outsource right?

I think my post earlier is too rude that said everyone want to make money.

wantanseller use a better word for it, web design is business

Importance of Creative value is much what I lacked from the previous posts, I apologize for that. Maybe this should be a complaint on how designers in MYS are overworked and underpaid (since they were the references I used. )
I can get the values of how much large multimillion corporations like Fuji Xerox spend on an identity, but somewhere below that is a big pool of grey. To parse it as another way, most clients would expect something professional at a price higher than a copy of the -professional- software used to make it. (Unless the client's an idiot)

But just as an interesting point, if it is a business, why does pricing look like a small issue? Competition? Most people here seem scarily confident of their abilities...

(Just in case anyone's not getting what I'm relating to, you should know that websites used to pay companies for placing ads. )

ahh.. that makes more sense since you're refering to the underpaid and overworked issue. well, some believe they need to start somewhere. get a foot in the industry first and make some 'friends'. but if you're a son of a Datuk or someone who's got loads of contacts then all you need to do is sell and market. I on the other hand took the brave door and ventured even without waiting for 5 years experience in the industry. shhh...I didn't say that. lol

urm, i don't think all clients believe that at a higher price they get more quality nowadays especially if you're pitching for a website project. most clients (SMBs) in Malaysia who want a website don't budget well enough for it. they undervalue website design just like brochure design when they approach the specialized company.

however, I don't blame them since we don't have quality control for these things and as we've actually talked bout it before; some people just are able to sell. there isn't really a method to stopping this..maybe in future.

the only way clients now learn (which I hope they do) of the difference is through their own experiences and stories they hear from their friends who've hired other people to do their website.

I like to look at it this issue this way - McD and your friendly neighbourhood Ramly burger guy (lets call him AbgBurger).

AbgBurger uses better burger patties than McD

AbgBurger puts in onion, salad, sos cili, sos tomato, mayonais

AbgBurger cooks each and every burger personally - one at a time.

But then how come you're still want to pay much much more for lesser quality burgers from McD when you can get yummier products from AbgBurger? And I think some AbgBurgers earn less per month than workers @ McD eventho they're in control of the $.

Quoting Etsuko, I think it's an issue of :

"
1. Clients demand quality and results - you can eat faster @ McD, got nice place to sit, counter&drivethru is superfast eventho you're ordering for 15 people (have u tried ordering for 15 people @ AbgBurger? ), & they have variety like McFlurry, sodas, fries, chicken, porridge....

2. Clients trust a brand than a price- it's so much cooler to sit there and have your burger. And it's McD so their burgers are always consistent - no surprises waiting for you.

3. Clients listen to their friends - how many times you go to McD because your friends wanna go there also?

"

Good topic, guys

Maybe I should name my business Mackers.. LOL!

anyway, just think of it as prices are justified for various reasons.

i comment alot about on other companies quotations if my client tells them to me and I'll ask if they offer what we offer.

and here's the thing, clients will say "yes, they offer that too." but whether they understand the difference is a different thing not to mention some clients just say that for you to lower the price. LOL!

by any chance can the Moderator please merge this thread into the Web Design is Business thread somewhere behind there.. LOL

Hi,
can i know the market price for doing a website in details? when to charge 2k plus, 5k and when to charge 10k plus?
Thanks!

My dear karen..

There is no standard charges for website design and development.

As your company grows, you need to quote higher. As your workload increases, you need to quote higher.

Market price is done via research from my experience. What I can tell you through observation in this forum is..

Design Students > RM25-100 per page

Design/Programming Graduates > RM50-200 per page

Hobby-ist > RM25-50 per page

Professionals (Small-Medium Business) > RM50-250+ per page

Professionals (Medium-Large Business) > RM250-RM500+ per page

The price is affected by a lot of things from traveling to email/calls to design/development and etc. So in order for you to find your price, you need to be honest and do the math of your business.

Just know this, once you start low you'll never get higher without some work.

To simplify an answer to your question..

2k plus - you're alone or have 1 partner..

5k plus - you have a company, you have 2-3 additional members and you service clients, you do marketing..

10k plus - you're a large company, you have 10 employees or more, you do marketing, you target large corporations or multi-national accounts..

but remember, pricing yourself requires honesty and maths.. not to mention the understanding of the culture and the business in Malaysia because they're all cheapskates and many need to be educated about the value good website design and development would bring to their business..

Cheers.

This post has been edited by etsuko: Jan 25 2007, 11:01 PM

IMO you still could charge any amount you want regardless of how many staff you have. (very few people asks how many staff you have.......)

to me, the pricing really depends on amount of work (size of the project). not the size of the company.

of course, you must understand what's your output vs someone else' output. for example, if someone's going to do a better job than you or can provide better then it's obvious that it's not wise to price it same, so in this situation you can lower your price.

at least it's fair to the customer too, what they pay is what they get.

i personally do not charge people on per-page basis. i charge based on the # of work i estimate would require to get the project done.




though i disagree about the pricing based on # of staff part, i whole heartedly agree with the above.

This post has been edited by goldfries: Jan 26 2007, 09:32 AM

The way I see it, a lot of your charges will be on a willing seller-willing buyer basis. But what makes you stand out amongst your competition is the value you add to your service.

Let's say a Mr Client gives Webguy a brief. "I want a website. Put my picture there with a welcome message, my contact info, my company profile and my 50 products and specs in there." And for this job, Webguy charges RM 2,000 for his 20 hours of work. The deal is done and both parties are happy.

But assume Webguy is a true professional. It takes him 20 hours to do up the site. But he takes 5 hours to go through Mr Client's competitor's websites and writes up a report for him - explaining why and how he can maximise the usefulness of his site. He recommends a form to mine data and spends an additional 2 hours doing it. Then he takes an extra 2 hours to make the site comply with webstandards and explain to the client how it will benefit him in the future. Webguy also collaborates with a good graphic designer who takes 4 hours to come out with a design that is both functional and beautiful - and explains to Mr Client how important that is to his Brand Image. Then Webguy goes on to recommend other features that will benefit Mr Client and give Mr Client's customers a satisfactory experience on the website - perhaps a testimonial page, and a help forum, and maybe even a blog by Mr Client to interact with his customers.

All in all, Webguy had taken 40 hours to do the job that would have taken other designers 20 hours. But with the additional 20 hours, Webguy had increase the usefulness of MrClient's website by 300%.

And instead of RM 2,000, Webguy can now charge RM 10,000 for his work which includes his time and also his valuable ideas. Webguy tells MrClient, "For 2K, I can make you a website but for 10K, I can make you a website that will be a valuable marketing tool for your company."

Don't just offer designs, offer solutions!

i like this phrase. that's my business concept too.

And by that explanation and phrase is how you can actually charge clients 10k and above.

but still.. think of your target market because different market segments have different spending power on their website.

and as mentioned one of the culture here is shared with Singaporeans; Kiasu mentality. they want everything for almost nothing in order to get back more than everything.

p/s: if your client doesn't see physical proof of your work process and the results, they won't trust whatever you say no matter how well you say it. LOL!

Well, hi there. To be a website designer (programmer), what extra languages you might recommend for?

I currently try to study PHP, luckily everything works well, also had set up my own PHP server last night, all left now is go find a perfect PHP book around.

Programming is fun (some people feel it boring, though), but I also do graphics works around. But kinda still need to learn more from you guy tai-ko around

I also try (TRY) to run a web design service in the future but sure I encounter many problems, such as how to promote, how to manage the money flow (about payment stuff)...... You guy ever think to build a web template selling service just like templatemonster.com ? Well I target that as my goal...

Currently just fooling around, try to learn more in PHP.

I also agree this.
I pricing also that way but if you starting ur business try make more portfolio 1st, the price is no important.
After you got some client and portfolio then try increase little the price.
This my 2 cents...

I agree on some level, i don't know much about website designing but usually i'll ask the designer whether they have a portfolio so roughly i know how are their works. Honestly, i cannot afford to pay professional website company to make websites for me, i only look for freelancer, and so far, ALL freelancers i met DO NOT have a personal website, nor portfolio set up, it's abit frustrating

so FREELANCERS are you LISTENING?!

Spend a meager RM100 annually for a domain (your name is best) and a hosting account and get your portfolio up. It doesn't have to be stupendous but a simple design and layout would suffice. After all, they are after your portfolio and not you.

cheers.

Hi Jensen,

might be interested to learn what can you do. maybe can do something together...i need something fresh and interactive, where can configure the BB and Blog together.

Most important is I'm intending to add certain codings/upload and troubleshoot until it runs well...The software I intend to configure into my website is:

a Security software that can protect any ebooks/software from being "pass" around illegally.

Example :
=======
A bought an ebook from my site and this software suppose to generate a code for A to "unlock" the software before he/she can download my ebook/software.

In case of any refund, I can "deactivate" the code given...so next time he/she wants to use it, cannot open and render the software "not usable" and have to purchase again to "unlock the product ".

You think can be done ? You will understand what i'm saying if you visit this site. It's almost similar with what i'm having.
www.clicklocker.com

Anyway, best part is : I will provide the codes / software...etc for upload.

Your job is to upload, implement, troubleshoot and to ensure the program runs smoothly. PLUS a bit of web design ....

If you can do, please let me know OR if you know anyone that can assist, please let me know too...

Thanks
Vincent

Till today I still can't believe that there are so many freelancers or soon-to-grad desigers who don't own their personal portfolio. A portfolio is one of the most crucial elements in a web designer bible. I have even seen a designer who goes for a job interview with just his transcript and without a portfolio. Well, not sure about the other industries but I think in the designing world, a portfolio is more crucial then your degree cert. Well, oh yeah everybody that goes for an interview definitely have a degree or diploma cert in certain fields, but what makes you special from is the rest is your portfolio.

What can you do? How you do it is? These are important questions that people will be ask you. Web designing is all about arts and creativity. Show the world what you can do for them before thinking what the world can do for you.

that's what i mean, i believe no matter which field you're in, a portfolio sure will come in handy. Plus you only need a page to feature works you have done, i don't know what is so difficult about it. Sadly i think the awareness of that in malaysian community is so low. Without having seeing your work, how do we put trust in what you are going to develop for us? Really sometimes have to think on behalf of consumer

This is not an attack, just a constructive criticism.

yeah, agree to certain extend, portfolio is important BUT mainly to BIG companies..etc...but for a small or SME, I think reasonable price with an acceptable design shud be alrite..depends on whether you find a fussy client or a much more accomodating client.

May I know that web design still hv bright future? Coz I gt think abt it to study in Web Design major but would u think it is gd to me to study now but i really like it so much(not coz of the salary) even i know some said web design no need to study from college also can learn by yrself. Would ppl hv confidence on your work? B4 i just study until Certificate in Graphic Design. What is the requirement to be a web designer?

Future - its up to you because you make your future.

I believe education comes from an extent. It's not like you were a baby and suddenly noticed; hey, these are what my two joints below my waist are for..*walks*

Customers get confidence in you from:
1. Your impression & personality
2. Your knowledge
3. Your portfolio
4. Your ideas
5. Your added value

That's the whole process of finding a customer, nailing the project, doing it and maintaining it.

The requirements in Malaysia are never clear because many companies still do not take a Web Designer as a profession but a job that is just to design. In other words, a graphic designer.

My requirements when hiring a web designer are:
1. Your impression
2. Your portfolio
3. Your knowledge (xHTML & CSS is a must - additional Javascript and PHP are advantages)
4. Your goal and principles

In the US, the requirements are different and I've noticed different companies have different requirements of their designer and their developer. So that's to say, there isn't really a standard but the minimum I know is you must have the understanding of web standards and xHTML/CSS.

Web designing is not a lucrative career (well, not yet.) but I always feel you live a happier life doing what you love.

I would say that there IS a future for web designer as these days the usage of internet has tremendously increased and there will be more and more demand for new websites for industries such as advertising and business applications. Heck, you could probably say that the importance of the internet will overtake television broadcasting in the next 10 to 15 years.

I have to agree with etsuko on "Future - its up to you because you make your future." There are practically too many self claim professional web designers out there and they are screwing up the market out there with their lack of experiences and very, VERY competitive pricing. You need to stand out among them. Always improve your portfolio and your knowledge in websites. You don't have to mastered a programming language or so, but at least learn the basic or the fundamental on how the system will work or flow.

What I think a good web designer needs are:
1. Passion to constantly improve yourself in terms of designing skill, personality and always keep an open mind.
2. A good and complete portfolio, portfolio and I repeat... PORTFOLIO.
3. Able to accept criticisms because you're designing a website for others to view and enjoy, NOT only yourself.
4. Don't only limit yourself to designing only...like that etsuko has mention; get some knowledge on basic web programming knowledge and SEO.

You will gradually gain people's confidence when:
1. Your portfolio is impressive
2. The client you service are from big industries because till the day you tell people, "hey guys, i design McDonald's website" i'm very sure people will have alot of confidence in you.

Always remember to start small and then gradually grow to bigger projects and never give up.

I'm not a web designer but I'm looking for a web designer to help to creat a company web site, I looking freelance or student cause limited budget. anyone sifu over here interesting can PM me, thank you... Location PJ, Sel Malaysia..

can you provide more details and i think here is not the right place for this. search the thread around

This thread is pinned not for seeking freelancers so please keep this clean.

Mod, if possible - move to Job Enlistments or create new topic under Arts & Design.

Thanks.

yeah it isn't that way, not in Malaysia i think.

however etsuko, you're RIGHT on that part (bolded).

even before i graduate, i love web design. during those days it was just HTML and a bit of flash here and there.

here am i doing web-design business, i'm VERY far from being the best designer in the world but i think God that i'm able to survive and live happily with this profession.

i didn't even study web-design, my degree is said to be a multi-media major but sad to say "that place" didn't teach enough of any thing to make you even a quarter of what a designer student should be.

there wasn't CSS then. many things weren't there, a lot of things that i have to pickup - but nevertheless the effort put into the work is not just design but to ensure that you actually help the customer achieve their goal and that they're happy.

a fine example would be our own ikram_zidane (yes, and guys like etsuko and many others too), which i personally found to be a really great web-designer material.

IMO coming from my experience, being a web-designer is more than just being able to design something that WOW people.

EDITED : on a side note, i do not have moderating rights in this forum.

This post has been edited by goldfries: Apr 4 2007, 11:54 PM

i dunno whether this is the right place to ask... then again. what the heck...

now, i am doing my degree in acc... had an assignment recently doing an e-commerce website... then, later i found out that i kinda like doing it... i mean, working with all those software... (i only use front page & photoshop though.. )...

i have an idea of building my "AD" skills, hopefully, someday, i could generate income from it.. do a freelance business or smtg...

though i think it need a lot of hard work... since the knowledge i have now, is merely enough for ppl to call me newbie in art&design....

i am just wandering, how much time do u think i need to learn about this stuff before i can promote my service.... considering i'll begin my journey next month (holiday).. with 2 months of holiday... would it be enough...


with my study and all... i dunno whether i can make it or not... but i really think, i have interest in it... technology really impress me..

AD skills? Advanced Diploma?

Well, using Frontpage is 1 thing. Building a website so that it helps generate more business to a company is another. There are numerous vendors around who offer cheap e-commerce packages. Some as low as even RM1500-2000 inclusive of a domain and hosting which to me is mad.

The Malaysia market is huge however like in business, you need to know your market segment and are you targeting quantity or quality.

As to how long you will take to learn the whole e-commerce thing, it depends on you and how far do you want to go. Is it inclusive of design? Is it with the sales? Is it including marketing? Is it also to know programming?

Each of this topic covers a lot of ground so it really depends on you.

wow. darn cheap. they're killing the market.

i always go based on the amount of work and the complexity of the project. i charge what's worth my time & effort.

i might give a little discount here and there and that's it.

someone recently told me they saw those cheapo 'over-night-hang-there-without-permission-lousy-type' signboard that says web-design for RM 500. sheesh.

and yeah, i often come by people ask me how much i charge per page.

AD? i assume that's Art & Design.

Its good to know you have interest gush...coz with interest and some hard work, you'll probably learn and master the skill of web design and development even faster.

If you wanna know whether if your good enough to make web designing a side income? Well, its simple. Design and develop yourself a website. It could be a personal website and added on as a small portfolio website too. Then, tell people about your website. Spread the word among your friends and relatives and if you do get alot of good positive feedbacks, then i guess you are ready to do freelance but always remember to start small but if the feedback is bad, then its back to the drawing board for you or you might reconsider to venture this line as a career.

I have to agree that there are alot of designers who are killing the market price out there. I myself have to slash down my price due to this circumstances but i guess this is only temporary coz once you are recognize for your work and you deliver a good service, you can start to charge higher

Well, if you're passionate about this. You should persevere until there is no hope and you realize you'll end up dying than living. Some give up easily because they imagine earning RM10k+ per month easy doing the business. But in whatever business, there's a high and low season.
Me and my team have grown past that. We've politely informed many clients our services do not meet their budget or if they don't reply to us, we would follow up and get an answer our prices are too high. Well, it doesn't really matter to us because that goes to show they weren't our target market.